The Obesity Guide with Matthea Rentea MD

Why Your Body Was Never the Problem with Kacee M Markarian LMFT

Matthea Rentea MD Season 1 Episode 127

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Every day, people in larger bodies face relentless messages that something is fundamentally wrong with them. From airplane seats that don't fit, to doctors who blame every health issue on weight, the shame runs so deep that many abandon their own needs—believing it's their fault.

What if the problem was never your body, but a society that profits from your self-hatred?

In this episode, I’m joined by psychotherapist Kacee Markarian, who reveals how to break free from internalized shame while caring for your health. From understanding ADHD-binge eating connections to setting "thought boundaries," she shows what it looks like to reclaim your brain and adorn your vessel—regardless of your size. This work isn't about becoming a better version of yourself. It's about discovering that you were never broken to begin with. 

References

https://copperunionapparel.com/

https://www.dopaminingdemystified.com/

https://www.queerapy.com/

Audio Stamps

00:30 - Dr. Rentea introduces psychotherapist Kacee Markarian, who specializes in fat liberation and ADHD-binge eating connections.

02:00 - Kacee shares her evolution accepting medical terms like "obesity" as conditions rather than identity markers.

05:12 - Discussion on navigating the conflict between health goals and body acceptance.

09:49 - Kacee reframes daily frustrations like airplane seats as systemic failures rather than personal problems.

19:45 - Kacee explains ADHD and binge eating connections, describing how dopamine dysfunction drives food-seeking behavior as nervous system regulation.

26:20 - Kacee introduces "thought boundaries" as tools for challenging negative self-talk and internalized beliefs.

34:33 - Practical tips for body reconnection through proper clothing and establishing boundaries around body comments.


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Welcome back to another episode of the podcast, everybody. I am really excited who we have on today. So we have Casey Markarian. She is a super amazing psychotherapist and also has been involved in the fat liberation movement for a long time. And I brought her on. I've known Casey for a long time and. She really has this perspective of understanding so much of the systemic discrimination that we face being in an overweight or obese body, and I use that terminology. Now again, what I really want to stress here, before we start this conversation, is that We are starting the conversation, but there is no way that this is the conclusion of this conversation or everything, because we have talked a lot about this even before when we were thinking about what we would talk about today. And it is such a broad topic. You really can't do it justice in 30 to 40 minutes. And so I want to start out today with Casey, if you'll introduce yourself and how you help people. And I have so many questions for you, but again, I know we're not going to be able to cover everything today. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. I feel like your podcast has really saved me in so many different situations. So thank you for everything you do. I'm Casey Markarian. I'm a psychotherapist in private practice for the past 15 years. And I, primarily see the queer non binary trans community and also community in fat liberation. I also do consulting worldwide around one of my favorite topics, which is the correlation between ADHD and binge eating disorder. So it's a really interesting time we find ourselves in. I personally don't love the words overweight and obese, but I understand that they're used in a medical context. Obesity, the word bothers me because loosely defined it is eating oneself fat, which we all know is not. What is happening? Yeah. So I just, I appreciate you saying that, like that's terminology you use and I use it more and more because it's hard not to, especially when you're helping folks find people who are board certified in obesity medicine. I ideally love this work and there are so many different pieces of it, especially now. It's interesting years ago, I, Even for myself, I didn't want to be called obese and I had a problem with it. And then what I came to understand is this as a medical condition, there's medical health. It's not who I am. It's a condition, you know? And so I have found it to be at least the people that are attracted to my work, they find it, they actually find it liberating that. Oh, this has not been a choice or a moral failing or frankly, you can exist in whatever body you want to exist in, but that to me to put a name on it has been helpful. Isn't that interesting how it changes over time too? Because again, I was cringed at that really even just four or five years ago before I started to, and I think it's really important for us to get more into sort of the medical side, to be honest, it was a real evolution for me. Absolutely. And you're totally right. I mean, I, I think when you're sitting in a doctor's office and they're basically, you know, you're in there because you have strep throat or, you've fractured your pinky and they're like, what you need to do, in fact, is lose weight. And it basically feels like they're saying, why can't you grow your hair faster? Why isn't your hair longer? I told you to grow your hair out. And ultimately you're just a person with a body that. Is being talked to like it's a bad body. And I think it's liberating for some, I think for others, it's still very much feels incredibly offensive. But I do appreciate the, the correlation of the medical. Complex. If we can have access to help, which is something that in my practice, I'm really noticing folks are having a hard time, maybe they want to access GLP one meds. Maybe they want to get an ADHD diagnosis. And most GPs at this point are still, touting that well, calories in calories out, which how many times do we have to learn is not an accurate assessment. Access is. Completely not available in most places. That's why, I have a telehealth clinic and literally it's because we can reach more people, at least for me in Indiana, Illinois. If I was only in, let's say, downtown Chicago, I literally couldn't help someone in a smaller area of Indiana. It's just literally not a possibility. The thought process behind it is really problematic. So I want to start to dig into this today because one of the things That I have more in a nuanced area about this is that I actually really agree that. Exist in whatever body you want to exist in. And we should not have, you said this before, you said this on your website. You said this to me before that, uh, uh, a fat body is not a failed thin body. Right. Not just, just like pierce my soul. Right. It's not like, well, inherently we're always trying to get to thin. I hate that. How do you help people that they're at odds between wanting to work on their health versus feeling that's at odds with being comfortable in the body that they have? I feel that it always gets portrayed as opposite extremes when I really think it can be the same thing. But how do you help people with that, that have that kind of conflict? I think first off, we have to get really far away from changing our bodies by way of adipose tissue, by way of pounds. I think we have to really look at internalized self hatred, the ways that we believe about ourselves, the indoctrination around, thin bodies, small bodies being better bodies. But then to speak to the medical reality where when you have a diagnosis. something like fatty liver disease, the suggestions to deal with that, right? Cause ultimately it is a glucose in the liver, right? Due to insulin resistance. The reality is you have to make some kind of changes, almost like the changes you would make if you have a food allergy, but to go back to internalized self hatred, why is it okay for me to focus on my health? If I have say asthma, Or I have say something going on that you don't have internalized shame around. You don't have a whole industry really telling you that you have a bad body. And I think it's doing that mind work. To get away from the idea that I need to overexercise or I need to restrict my calories because the reality of the situation is just even taking fatty liver disease. I see people all the time change one or two things, which you say this all the time on your podcast. Let's not change everything. Let's find one thing, get really good at it. And then maybe add in another thing. It doesn't change their body weights at all, but it's the inflammation. You see change, right? But we don't, it's, it's all the time. You get complimented for having weight loss. When in fact you are ill, you get talked to and looked at in, in many different ways. When you gain weight or you have a weight issue. I mean, somebody, there are people with fatty liver disease that don't have, anything to really talk about weight wise. And so what do you do then? They're not put in the same bucket though, right? And I think that's the really challenging thing that people struggle with. Exactly. Ultimately I really do help people try to come back to a reality where did you get these ideas? How do you believe them about yourself? And is there some work for us to do around internalized self hatred, which leads to people pleasing tendencies, which leads to abandoning oneself. And that is, I think one of the most important things we can do to us do for ourselves, no matter what size body we have. Yeah. Yeah. Whenever you say, people pleasing tendencies and abandoning oneself, it hits so deep. It makes every little hair on my body just right up. Because how often is, isn't everyone listening? Let's just give an example. I'm gonna give an example from me. If my day gets busy, the first thing I will do is throw myself under the bus, not do my walk, not prepare the things that work for me. And I just completely abandon anything that will help me. I'll have a headache by the end of the day. I'll be tired and exhausted. That's what I think of. I know you probably see maybe more deep examples, but I just think about how easy it is for me to just, Forget what I need, forget any of it and just to just in the name of what everyone else needs around me. It's really amazing. Absolutely. And I actually think that is a really deep example because, and I use this cheesy example, I always name it as cheesy, you know, it's like, I don't know if you've ever took like a Virgin America flight, but they used to have this little, animated, little show before the plane. If the oxygen mask drops down, you put it on yourself first and then the people around you. Because. Ultimately, if you're not well, how are you showing up for anybody else? You know, Completely, completely. And you're right. It's been so cliche that no one wants to hear it anymore. Put on your own oxygen mask first, but it's really true because many of us do have many responsibilities, like when I think about my life, yes I am a wife. I am, a mom, a step mom. There are many responsibilities, but yet I matter too. So I think that this. Gets forgotten in the mix, right? Absolutely. And one of the other pieces of it is I really do share with folks a commitment to taking really good care of yourself. I really like how you talked about where is the messaging coming from and really exploring some of that. Cause I'm thinking I'm going to get to this with some of the questions I ask you coming up, but I think it's actually quite deep. Basically, there's not been a day that we have not received negative messaging. Many of my listeners, they really experienced day to day frustrations, seatbelts, not fitting up, finding clothes that fit right. Or just simply being treated differently in public spaces. So how can we start to shift the focus from shame and discomfort and really start to understand that these issues are systemic rather than personal failings, because I think everybody puts it on themselves. I let the weight go up and I, that is something that I'm against, but I don't know how to help people to not have that internalized shame. I think the shame is going to be there because there's too many different ways that it gets lifted up. Yeah. So I think, first of all, the shame is going to be there. I think there's a lot of mind math we can do for example, let's take the example of going on an airplane, because this one happens all the time. Why are we internalizing the idea that we get on the airplane, the seatbelt doesn't fit, the chair doesn't fit, we're incredibly uncomfortable. And that is because something is wrong with us. What happened to the systemic reality that we were not thought about when they created that airplane? Because the truth is that they could have, and they decided not to, there is So many different types of bodies in this world and there is an airplane that the seats get smaller. It feels embarrassing to ask for an extender. Why is that not just an accessibility thing? And this is where I think we can, and to your point in the beginning, I think we can go on and on about so many different aspects here, but it really does boil down to disability justice, right? Because the truth about this is that we are all going to be, if not we are already, dealing with some type of accessibility issue, right? And. If you talk to most people, they don't really think about or prioritize the justice around accessibility with disability. And when you think about this by way of internalized self hatred, it's a lot easier to believe something is wrong with me. Then the people around me that say they love me, or the communities around me that say I'm accepted, or these systems that try to pretend like they are thinking about me, that they care about me, but in fact, it really, it's the internalized self hatred. I think it's not getting rid of it. I think it's acknowledging that it's there due to systemic oppression. One of the reasons why I really love fat liberation, it's about acceptance and respect, and this is not new. This has been around. I think it's been around truly since the sixties with a fat liberation manifesto written in, I think 73, 1973, which I think is a really interesting thing for your listeners if they want to go and Google it. I always think about number five in the fat liberation manifesto. I think it's number five. Ultimately it talks about no more. We are not going to deal with enemies, of our bodies that are trying to sell us these products that don't work, that are trying to tell us, that we need to do these things and we need to pay this money. And, ultimately it just leads to more self hatred. I think if you can think about a larger context it's not just you and your body. It's the messaging. Mean that, I think what's tricky is that a lot of times, you've gotten all this messaging, childhood you've been teased, adult experiences, judgment in the healthcare system, I see this all the time. Like you were just talking about, you go in for one thing, you get accused. It's because of your weight or, it's as though it was optional how that happened, right? And I find that people tie their self worth with their body size. And the world is always putting those two together and so, I'm like, okay, so the shame, you're like, it's gonna be there because you're getting messaging all day long. So, how do we start to disentangle it, though? What steps can we take? I mean, there's the aspect of, yes, the world is not built for, like, all of this. Mm hmm. Given, sometimes I'm like, okay, but we are in this world. We do need to navigate it. What are some steps that we can take to disentangle the two? Because I find daily people are talking about this with me in the clinic. I know. I know. Me too. I mean, it's in daily. I feel like I think about it minute by minute, really. And I think it really is a commitment to. Really understanding not only where you get the disbelief system, right, but also what about the radical act where you are the person that hangs out with yourself the most. And what about if you just were like, fuck that I actually do not believe it. And I'm going to work in every moment to keep reclaiming myself. I talk about this a lot with folks because, in that liberation community, and I think this is something that. I don't really hear being talked about. There has been a conversation about like, well, my doctor is, for whatever reason, suggesting that I go on a GLP 1 medication, okay? And I feel like doing that is important to me because I have this one body and I want to try it, right? But what does that mean about my identity in this place of working on it in every moment and deciding Hey, I'm the person that hangs out with me. the most. And I'm going to be like, no, fuck these systems of oppression. I am going to try and be like, I'm wonderful in any size my body is right. But then you have a public failure, public health failure, calling GLP one medication, weight loss medication, when in fact it is anti inflammation medication. And so. A lot of folks are really frozen. I'd say really frozen, especially in Fat Liberation, because they don't want to be, these thin bodies that are Oh, now I'm my before and after photo, which I completely disagree with. But one of the things I think you can do is to really just look at what do I have within my control to try And I don't know, heal an organ or look at my blood sugar or figure out why this gout is happening the way that it is and I want to say everything I just named also happens to folks in thin bodies. And I wish that we talked about it more in that way. Completely. So it's kind of cheesy to say focus on health, but okay, if you have a dairy allergy and what you're doing is like, you know, eating this like amazing dairy filled, whatever. And it's making you sick for days and days and days, I guess maybe think about like, okay, well, what are my choices here? You know? Yeah. Okay. You named just so many good. There were so many things. I'm like, can I even remember all of them? Number one, you're talking about reclaiming your brain. Yes to that, because I feel like it makes me so angry when people are putting themselves down all day long. It's like you would never allow a friend to say that. You wouldn't stand for it. Not a moment. Also, I just find life, I'm sorry, it's too short. There, it's already hard enough, and then we're gonna, we're gonna put, we're gonna dump even more on it. Reclaiming that, really changing how you're thinking about yourself. And then yes to that being a failing that. People are referring to these as weight loss medications when really it is treating different chronic diseases. It's just incredible addiction. Can you even addiction? I have a really good friend of mine that has, chronic joint pain who is on, a low dose of a GLP one is feeling so much better. Even in my practice, I have folks that had a heroin addiction and then went on a low dose, so, you know, GLP one and don't go anywhere near. any kind of med or any kind of drug because of the med. Yeah. So, okay. So what I like is if people can focus more on, and this is always what I come to as well, can focus more on what is under their control. What is the actual point if you are doing a medication or something like that, instead of it being this quest for thinness, it's like, no, that's not at all what I'm doing here and really separating out. It's about health. It's about how I feel, how maybe you're navigating the world that and not. We're not negating that all these other things exist, but really focusing on that. And then it takes it away from trying to get closer to thin privilege. And really it's just, how is my health and how am I talking to myself? And um, and I can't agree with you more with the before and after things. I think I took a stance a few years back at, well, I'm sure I just decided I hate the before and after thing. And no, like Casey, like it would be a really good marketing tool for me to be honest. Like if I could do. And, and I always, and I'm like, if I would show what I look like years ago in the promotional video where I hated myself that this big employer made me do, if I compared that to now, but I refuse to do it because I hate this glorified version of, well now that this weights off my life is so much better. No, honestly, that started kind of day one when I decided to not run myself over with a bus every day. Right. I had nothing to do with weight. I'm sure. A hundred percent. I don't like how that's always made viral. That's always really glorified. And I'm like, can we walk away from it? But it's never going to be sensationalized the version that I'm presenting. No, no. And honestly, like I don't want to evangelize anything, right? Any group of people, any reality when it comes to my medical picture. And it's just, it just feels like such shock and awe. It's like, oh, well look at this picture and compared to this picture. to it, right? We're like searching. This is the thing about the thoughts. And it's funny. I'm, I'm also married to a psychotherapist. So there's a lot of conversations and, it just so happens, there's a real reality to the thoughts poisoning us, and it's not just like, Oh, we have these negative thoughts. These negative thoughts are driving everything you do throughout the day. And so I actually think it's a form of self hatred. I think it's a form of self harm to be like, Oh, let me look at before and afters, I think that weight loss is one of the most. Uninteresting thing a person can do is boring and it's also not going to stay that way no matter what our bodies are constantly moving. I know and they haven't gotten the memo yet and I feel so bad because it's like you're going to age, things are going to shift. If people have babies, things change. It's just, oh, it's so sad. But you're Like, along these lines, though, and this is the thing I see, they're constantly getting this pressure to lose weight. Media, family, doctors, everyone. Okay, so all day long it's weight loss, weight loss, weight loss, and they really want to achieve this quote unquote ideal body. They believe that this is true, right? With all this conditioning. And they're actually, they have a lot of stress and pressure and shame over this. How can you release that? Because I don't know, it's hard that they always think there's some ideal to achieve. Like they can be loving themselves, but then it's like, but actually this is the thing that matters. That's what I always find. Oh, totally. Oh, totally. This is where I really like the idea of liberation, and it makes work. It's not just like a mindset that you put on. And I think one of the best ways I could talk about it is if I could talk about ADHD and binge eating disorder, so in my practice, I will see folks that, will be like how is it going? Maybe they have had some kind of metabolic dysfunction and they're trying to do something right with it. So they're, they're trying to maybe look at sugar or look at, when they're eating, how much they're eating, whatnot. Then Everything is self blame. It's like, I was doing good. And then I had all of these, let's say doughnuts, right? Although who, eat the doughnuts, right? But the reality of the situation is that the shame is tied to the food, so when you start to try to talk to folks about all bodies are good bodies, you have to give caveats of systemic oppression and the idea that people are constantly wanting you to move towards what this ideal is of a good body, when you start talking about what binge eating disorder actually is, which is very different than a DSM definition of binge eating disorder. It's so hard because you're not actually making any choices. You think you are. You think you're choosing to eat this thing and then have the shame around it. But ultimately, it's so much. bigger than that. We have satiation hormones, we have food noise, we have sleep, we have, all of the wonderful things you talk about on your podcast, but we've really been trained that I eat the donut and I'm awful, or I don't eat the donut and I'm doing great. I know I keep coming back to the brain. But it really is true now, especially when you have dopamine dysfunction. Okay. So a lot of ADHD is dopamine dysfunction. And I am endlessly curious about how we're searching for dopamine. In fact, my website is dopamining demystified because I mine for dopamine. That's what I do. If I'm not careful. Yeah. And I think folks with binge eating disorder are some of the most intelligent folks you will ever meet because what they're doing is trying to soothe a dysregulated nervous system by way of food. And this is what we did before we had language, babies crying, you feed the baby. And it's like feeding a hungry ghost, I call it a haunting, we're haunted by these feelings and the only way we make sense of them is to cue internalized self hatred. I think one of the first things I do with folks is really talk about like, how do we stop that? How do we stop such a limited understanding of why we do the things we do and why we are searching for dopamine the way that we are. Yeah. Oh, this is so beautiful. This like ghost. And yeah. I think we've talked about this before that more than half my patients have some form of attention deficit and that's actually part of screening when they come into the clinic because yeah, find that. And we could call this comorbid or whatever you want to say, but If you don't understand what else is at play, you sit there and think that it's a meal plan. And what a joke with people that are listening that aren't seeing this, we're just rolling our eyes. It's so inappropriate to recommend a meal plan to someone when there's all this other stuff going on, or honestly, majority of it, nothing to do with food. When you bring this up, I just think, gosh, it is so important that we. Get the right help and understand things actually at, I always say the roots, right? Not just like, Oh, this fruit is on the tree, but what are the roots that are causing this growing from somewhere? I feel like society really doesn't want us to know the roots. I really do. I think even just take the using, the GLP one as a weight loss medication. Like what, why aren't we talking about. hormones. Why aren't we talking about, thoughts and when I am working with folks, one of the things I like to talk about with binge eating disorder is, you go into a trance and that's different. That's different than, you have somebody talking about Oh, I had all of this. Food and, this culture is set up to be like, Oh, how cute, depending on the body you have. If you're, think about those commercials, right? They're eating like a million cheeseburgers and they're adorable, with societal beauty standards. And then, I also talk about how it's easy. So for example, if you are struggling, but you see all of these people around you having such an easy time doing it, spoiler alert, it's easy for them because we don't do things that are hard. We don't. So once you figure out, Hey, why have I been struggling in this way? We figure out ways very slow to make it easier, but don't think for a second that people walk around with bodies that you project onto them that, why is it so easy for them? It's because it's easy. They don't struggle with the mind math. They don't struggle with internalized self hatred around this topic. Yes. Yes. When you said this was a few thoughts back here when you were like, it's not actually a choice. That's it. Because I feel like that beyond just even binge eating, that relates to that people always feel that you're choosing this and that could not be further from the truth that there's on multiple, like multiple, multiple, multiple levels. And that's why we can't with one thing usually solve things. Usually it's not a singular fix. It's always like multiple things that we have to navigate. And I think if people are listening to this. Again, you might be listening and thinking, Oh my gosh, there's so many things that are just brought up here. How am I ever going to work on all this? No one's suggesting that tomorrow this is solved or that there ever is a solve. Because I'm sorry, the problem at some point is so large as far as systemic, around you, how everything's built in the messaging and all of that. The best you can do I always think from a liberation standpoint, like starting internal outside, right? Yeah, can't change the world. But if you can start with yourself and what you're thinking and believing and doing, then there's A little bit of relief, potentially, depending on what life looks like, as long as you commit to working on it. Like you said, you have to do it in every moment. It is really a commitment. Yes. And I wonder along those lines, and I feel like I have had a struggle with this because I've always existed in a larger body and while I have had fat loss, I don't know that I'll ever be in this, traditional accepted body. And so for listeners that they feel like they're constantly surrounded by fat phobia. I'm just going to loosely define that. Like you're just always being judged for your weight. Okay, whether it's societal settings at work, are there any practical tools or coping strategies that they can use to protect their mental health and kind of fight back against that negative narrative? Because I feel like I'm in this zone a lot. Where I'm having to pump myself up and be like, but it's not a choice and this is the world. And I have so many things I do, but I'm like, is there a better way at this? Yeah. Yeah. Thinking about it like it's an infection, like it's an illness, society is sick, right? This is really intense. So I'm not sure what listeners will think about this, but I think any way that people can separate themselves from other people and ignore the fact that we are all going to die and we don't know when. So, and I know, I know that this is, I'm actually into this. I actually No, you're okay. I know it's like being a psychotherapist. I'm like, I don't know how deep we can go with this, but ultimately I think when we don't have a sense of belonging, we really try to fit in. And I think one of the ways that you try to fit in is to make sure that there is an out group, right? And this is everywhere. This is friendship. This is different types of relationships. This is systems, right? I really think it's important to have your own mindset and have some really serious thought boundaries and know that, the best thought boundaries, I have such good thought boundaries. And there are still days where I'm like why am I even entertaining that thought? Why? But the truth is it's because I'm a human being. And. Yeah. I think both try to have really good thought boundaries, try to think of it as an illness, and also then come back to am I engaging in internalized self hatred, is that leading to people pleasing tendencies, and am I abandoning myself, and abandoning yourself in this topic, absolutely believing that you are in one of the bad bodies, that you are, all of that shit that you hear externally that really is part of the illness. Can you give me an example of a thought boundary? Cause I think people are going to hear that. It sounds amazing. Totally. Give an example. Give us some example. Oh yeah. So one really good one I think is when you think to yourself. Some negative thought, which I don't really like to say them because, why would I put that energy into the world, right? You thought a negative thought. Yeah. A thought, right? A thought boundary would be something like, well, wait, let me just take a second here. This is actually happening in my brain, right? Let me take a second here. Is that actually what I believe? Me, Casey, right? Specific person that is different than the masses. And if it is what I believe, Is it harmful to think this thought is it harmful to then say this kind of thing out loud, which I am huge into I do not speak things that are harmful externally, because I mean it's going to harm the people that are hearing it right and everyone's listening. I think the thought boundary, the first step is to take a second and actually ask yourself, is this something I actually believe now if the answer is yes. Yeah. Okay? Because you and I both know the answer can be yes. Yeah, some people are like, deep down, it's that deep core. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that deep, that deep sort of yeah, yeah, I totally do, yeah. Then, I think it's helpful to take an account, to take an assessment of why. Why do you believe that? Where did you get that information? And you know what? Because I do is not an answer. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you addressed that though, because people are just like, I was always brought up with that. But then that explains it's coming from mom, dad, siblings, whatever. It's coming from someone. And this is why I love therapy, because, you can have people come in and say, my least favorite color is red. I hate red. I hate red for years. I hate red. And then all of a sudden one day they'll come in and be like, you know what? I think red is my favorite color. And you're like, of course it is because that is what people do. Yeah. I always say we're allowed to change our mind at any point. Yeah. And I think that this is really powerful because you don't need to continue. That family narrative, this is what we've always believed. You get to decide. Sorry, but as you grow up, you get to become your own person. And a lot of the time it's a lot of work because I feel like, I don't know, is this a thing that the earlier you got the messaging, the more entrenched it is? Because I feel if you really heard it at a young age, I find those patients struggle the most when they've had overweight or obesity sense of very young age. They are so much more conflicted with relationship with food and listening to themselves and they don't ever think that the messaging is correct from their body. It's a lot higher conflict. Yeah, this makes a lot of sense. Actually. I, I just think about myself. Like I, I grew up with, somebody who had a pretty severe, eating disorder restriction. And, I was one and I think this is going to speak to my age. I was one day reading an encyclopedia, like an actual book, right? And I read about this, this really wonderful reality where people are celebrated in different cultures due to their body size. And it was in that moment that I thought to myself, and I think, I think I just had learned to read. I thought to myself, wait a minute, Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait, this is a lie. Everyone around me has lost it. And I don't have to do that. I think there is some truth to what you're saying, right? Because I never heard the messaging that, growing up, I heard messaging of a lot of body heat and a lot of restriction, a lot of, you really, like I said before, need to grow your hair longer. I E. I had a pediatrician saying all kinds of things, but I always had that in the back of my mind where I was like, well, wait a minute, like what happens if all bodies were celebrated? And I think it really did contribute to being a pretty radical thinker. So it, yeah. Is it people? Is it knowledge? Is it all of a sudden, stumbling across an encyclopedia and being like, whoa, wait a minute. I think they're lying. This is so random, but I feel like it belongs here in this conversation. I remember with dating, this was before I met my husband over ten years ago, so I just remember always thinking I had to look different somehow put on an outfit that made me an illusion of being different. And then I had this moment, this was a week before I met Russell, and I was just like, no, not one more moment, I don't care. body is here. What if I never lose weight? I don't care. You better like it. You better not have a problem with it. And it wasn't that I was putting it in people's faces, there's this look that someone can give you when they meet you and they disapprove of how you look. And it is the most wretched, any of us that have gone through this, you know what I'm talking about. Where someone just mentally just puts you down with their eyes. Like you can tell instantly from someone. And I remember being like, I will never again, not have a guy say a nice thing when he meets me. Not do this, not do that. I think what you're talking about, I just had a boundary moment where I was like, and that's it. I don't care if I'm alone my whole life. Can I just say, you just, you just explained the thought boundary. You were like, Oh no, I'm not doing this anymore. Also those people that look at you like that, they look at you like that because they look at themselves that way. Yes. And that's the other reality, people can only meet you as deeply as they meet themselves truly, truly. When you say that, it reminds me too, I see this a lot online again, just because of the intersection where I'm hanging out online, where People are never more angry than someone that has some weight on them having an amazing life. They hate it. Oh, I know. They want that person to be suffering and unhappy all day long and different, right? Well like they are. Yes. This is the thing, like they are, right? I'm going to subscribe to the illness. And I'm going to hate myself and I'm going to struggle and suffer. And so when I see somebody else who is brave and strong and real and willing to, like you said, like, I'm not going to, are you kidding? I honestly wish it was in other people's faces. You said, I'm not going to put it in other people's faces. I, I mean, Russell should watch out. I'm going to tell you right now, because it's like you, that is exactly the kind of energy I want to see from people. We should feel good about ourselves. We have this one body. We have to stop feeling so apologetic. It's about everything, right? It's about such a bigger conversation. And this kind of leads me to the last question that I had for you, which is what are ways that someone can start to reconnect with their body and maybe a more positive or nonjudgmental, even neutral way, right? Especially if you're struggling with health concerns and that may or may not be related to weight, but how can we start to change the relationship with ourselves a little bit? I know we touched on it, but any other thoughts on that? I think this is something that there's so many different ways to look at it. One of the things I love to do is definitely adorn the vessel get rid of the clothes. We don't like get rid of the, I don't care what size they are. Yeah. Like everybody, please throw in the trash. So we're going to throw them out to throw them out. Do not. I do not like the idea that we have outfits that we're waiting to wear. Can you get more harmful? Not only that, but can we have a practical moment? Styles change. And are you going to want to get back in those shitty clothes that made you feel horrible? No, your body might be different. This is good. Well, okay. So I love the idea of adorning the vessel and I, and this goes for everything, every vessel you have a door in the house, a door in the car, adorn, your animals, your kids, your, your life. I think, at least for me, I know that I have a better day when I like what I have on my body and I like what I have on my body when my clothes fit me in a way that makes me feel good. And so really experiment. to your point, stop the apology, go to whatever store and again, there is another example of serious oppression when it comes to accessing clothing, but maybe find places where you can order clothes. I know here in Portland, there are amazing small, slow fashion, fat liberation clothing stores. One I love so much is called copper union. But, go and look and copper union, Claire, the owner is. Absolutely. Amazing. And she will send those clothes anywhere and talk to you and help you. I just think if you can do the thing where we're going to avoid internalized self hatred, we're going to notice the people pleasing tendencies and we're going to stop abandoning ourselves. The first thing we can do is really lift ourself up and we have to wear clothes. I guess we don't have to, but I think it's probably appreciated. So you know, I think first the door in the vessel and I think the same thing when it comes to the mind. Adorn your mind because, I told you about my partner, who's also a psychotherapist. And one of the things I hear all the time is, the thoughts, he's also a Buddhist and they really do impact you. The way I think about it, and I'm not sure that this would work for everyone is I'm really picky about my clothing. I need to be that way about my thoughts. Oh, I love that. Yes. Let me come back to the clothing thing for a second. First of all, I wrote this name down. I'm going to make sure that I have it right. I want to put in the show notes, some great resources for people because I know too, I started years ago working with a stylist. Now it's not about working with a stylist. Here's the deal. I didn't know that there were plus size. Creators in the fashion market. And I know you're, everyone, you're just like, what the tan? Okay. But I learned there were so many brands in Chicago where they were size inclusive. And like you're talking about, they were smaller. Maybe they don't have the biggest websites or this or that. And, like Wolfka is one of my favorite. Oh yeah. I love that one. So there are so many incredible ones and I'm just sitting there and I'm like, but I didn't know it existed. Think about it. I was sitting there Googling online, think about how limited we are, we might even be searching it out and maybe this episode finds someone and they're like, Oh, I didn't even know that these people exist. So I love that. And then I love how you were saying to be picky, not only with our clothes, but our thoughts, because that is how I have worked on this. Here's what I do. Every so often this wretched stuff will come up. And I love what you said. We're not even going to say it. Cause it's not worth it. And then I'm like, absolutely not force field. I'm like, we're not doing that anymore. Literally, we can do anything else, but that's not an option. No, instant shut down. Even if I don't need to say positive things, but we're not doing the negative train anymore. We're, period, we're done. And it's really incredible because life, life gets a lot brighter when you stop putting yourself down all day long, yeah. And it's funny, you use a really important intervention in behavioral therapy, which is just as simple. And I'll give this to your listeners, really use this, really use it. We don't do that anymore. Yeah. And use we, because we really is a collection of all of the different parts of ourselves internally. So you can even use that as a thought boundary, right? You do the thing, cause inevitably you're going to do it, but how quickly can you bring yourself back to, we do not do that anymore. God. Okay. That is so simple. So brilliant. So I hope everybody's listening. Just writes that down right now on a little sticky note. We don't do that anymore. Put that somewhere so you don't forget it. I know Casey you've helped me with some things and I've had to write them down to remember, like, now we're practicing this. Oh yeah. Yeah. This is what we're indoctrinating ourselves with. It really is a commitment. Yes. Yes. And it's a continued, because we keep getting the negative messaging, that's not going anywhere. So I feel like we have to get stronger and stronger. And I always say, force field, right? Like in anymore. And then also within ourselves. So God, so many amazing things. C Do you think before I, be there anything that we di within these specific top would still be important Well, just what you ended with, actually, you said something really so smart, like why not indoctrinate ourselves with, the pieces that we've talked about today. I really do think, unfortunately, we do live in a society where a lot of this is contagious. Yes. So the illness we talked about before, right? This hatred about our bodies and this idea, like the other piece for me is always about the systemic oppression. And even though we do have access to these medications, that help some and for others, you know, do not, there is not a lot of work being done around systemic oppression for fat bodies, which is really important to me. And I think one of the things you can do just even now is watch what you say. Around anyone around your body, their body, or somebody else's body, it's really, if there's one thing I've learned in my own life and also in, my practice, which I value so completely, it is harming people. It is hurting them, yeah. I wonder your thoughts on this, I am of the opinion that you really just shouldn't comment on someone's body, because you might think all this is such a positive thing that I'm saying and. Gosh, okay, so there was a comment that got said to me the other day, and this person meant it in a nice way that, obviously I can see that you're still on your journey and da da da, and in a way, it actually, it actually was perceived negatively by me, and I, right? Because in my mind, I'm like, I understand this, I know this, but yet, I don't know, I felt like it negates my work, I can't describe it, it just hit wrong. That person had no intention of delivering it in that way. Had zero thoughts about it and so what I'm realizing is I just don't like to comment because there's no winning ever with how you say it because if they live on the high of the comment, then they're dying when they don't hear a comment, oh, that's perfectly put, yeah. So are you a fan of that, for people just not commenting on other people's bodies, or is there Oh, not only am I a fan of it, but it's what I demand. I mean, that is absolutely inappropriate and incredibly harmful. And truly, we know nothing about what somebody else is going through, even if we think we do. Truly. A hundred percent for that. I'm really interested. Truly in the core of my being in liberation for all. And that means everyone. And often, when I do have folks in my practice, from that liberation community, it's one of the things I like to say to them. If we're going to demand liberation, why can't we have liberation for literally everyone? And in that, I think there's a freedom in do not comment on my body. And you can be assured, I will never comment on someone else's body. A hundred percent to what you said. a video online a few months ago and this girl was complaining about how, she was in a thinner body and why do you judge me for this? But other people that are on a GLP 1, they can show what they eat in a day. And you know what I said to her? Welcome sister. It's called everyone's made inappropriate comments, right? Is that what you said? You said, welcome sister. No, I was literally in the comment. I was like, welcome, because Literally, this is what it is there's no winning ever, it doesn't matter the body shape size. It doesn't matter what you're eating or not eating. There's a judgment from everyone. So I love what you're saying. Not only to, to, to, to, to demand it from yourself. I love that. Yeah. Well, and you can use those thought boundaries right in that situation. Because like, if you demand that, that no one comments on your body, you comment on no one's body. Why the fuck would your brain comment on your body to yourself internally? Why? Yes. So here's the thing, though. I think people are going to be listening. They're going to be at day zero. You're at day, like, 950. I don't know how that's going to work, but yeah. No, this has been lifelong work. I definitely don't want anyone to feel overwhelmed. The small takeaway from it is things can be different and it's going to be some work on, on your end. I want to suggest anyone that's listening to this episode that maybe you come back in a few weeks, a few months, maybe you listen to this a few times because I think that We get different things at different times, and we might have brought stuff up today that people didn't realize they could make a thought boundary, didn't realize that they could have this demand of other people, that you're not sitting here critiquing my body, you're not critiquing themselves. Because I think, again, if people grew up with a mom that was judging herself all day long, they think that's normal. They don't even, you don't even know that's a problem, right? It's such a good Point because it's like breathing, it's, and that's where, I think earlier when you asked, what's something we can do, it really is the mind math and slowing down enough to even notice that's what you're doing and that you don't want to be doing that. Like it really is. It's like breathing. I think breathing is the perfect example for it. It's so good. It is so good. All right. So I have, I love everything you've shared today. There are a million nuggets. How can people connect with you? Like where's the best place to find you or just tell us how everyone can find you in the future. Sure. I do consulting, worldwide and that's, that website is dopamining demystified. Yeah, I know it's so funny. I love the idea that we're all mining for dopamine and endlessly curious about how we do it and also why we do it usually with things that harm us. If you're in Oregon or California, I have psychotherapy practices in both of those states and my website for that is queerpea. com, which is just the collaboration of the word queer and therapy. And you can reach me at dopaminingdemystified. com and I think you can just do a web inquiry there. Thank you so much today for coming on enlightening us on a lot of this and just really starting the conversation. I know that I definitely want you back. There are so many other topics. I was really joking with you. This needs to be like a five part series because there's so many other things. So if anyone's listening, don't worry. Hopefully we're going to have you back soon and I would love it. Definitely. Cause I feel like there's, this is so rich here and your work is so targeted. With so much of what my listeners struggle with that. It's just a true gift. So thanks again for coming on and really sharing this with everyone. My pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.