Crafting Change with Grant Caunter: Founder of State of Play Brewing

Join us in this inspiring episode as we delve into the journey of Grant Caunter, the founder of State of Play Brewing, New Zealand's pioneering zero-alcohol brewery. From his early days at Heineken to becoming a 'beerpreneur,' Grant shares his transformative story of personal growth and innovation in the competitive world of non-alcoholic beverages. Discover how Grant's passion for quality and authenticity has propelled State of Play to become one of New Zealand's top breweries, and learn about the challenges and triumphs of crafting flavorful, alcohol-free beers. 

Grant is the founder of State of Play Brewing, New Zealand’s zero alcohol brewery. He has spent the last three years walking the talk and growing a beer brand in the most competitive category, in the most untrusted segment with a brand most people expect will be totally shit. Turns out New Zealand beer drinkers love it. Growing 55% year on year and now in the top 20 breweries in New Zealand and still the fastest growing. For Grant it's personal. It’s a good choice for great change. 

Website: stateofplaybeer.com

IG: @stateofplaybeer

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Transcript

STATE OF PLAY BREWING - GRANT CAUNTER

​[00:00:00]

Kevin: I welcome everyone to another episode of the Reframing podcast, the podcast that brings you people, stories, and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship, not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more. Because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass.

This podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol.

It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. My name is Kevin Bellack. I'm a certified professional recovery coach and the head of coaching at the Reframe app. 

Emma: And I'm Emma Simmons, a Reframer, a certified life coach and Thrive coach with Reframe.

And I'm from New Zealand, and today I am super excited to be joined by a fellow Kiwi. Yay. Kevin's the odd one. Today. Today we're excited to be joined by Grant [00:01:00] Kanter.

Grant describes himself as a beer preneur. He's the founder of State of Play Brewing. I tried really hard new Zealand's zero alcohol brewery. Previously. Grant was a career beer guy with Heineken. He has spent the last three years walking the torque and growing a beer brand in the most competitive category in the most untrusted segment with a brand.

Most people expect to be totally shit. Turns out New Zealand bedroom drinkers love it, growing 55% year on year, and now in the top 20 breweries in New Zealand and still the fastest growing. But for Grant, it's personal and it's a good choice for a great change. Welcome, grant. I am so sorry I butchered that intro so much.

Grant: Thank you Emma and Kevin. Yeah, it's great to be here as a must be your first beer preneur if you hadn't said that term before. 

Emma: Yeah, no, not heard that term. Beer preneur. That's another [00:02:00] fun one for us to stumble on. 

Kevin: Is that all like craft beer makers or is that, 

Grant: I suppose it's, is that a common term?

No it's probably because after being a bit of a, yeah a 25 year Heineken, lifer, yeah, to be a, to be an a, a mature entrepreneur in Beer, I thought, 

Emma: yeah, 

Grant: I'll be a beer preneur and see how that goes. I 

Emma: love that it rolls off your tongue so much better than it rolls off ours, but I'll just keep practicing.

Kevin: I'm guessing you've said it a few times, so a few more times than Emma did. Yeah.

Emma: Oh, we're off to a great start. So Grant, tell us, let's start at the beginning. How did your journey with alcohol Free beer start, where did it evolve from?

Grant: I've been really, I'm, I've been the beer guy, from the beginning, from stealing bottles of beer, of dad's supply in the garage.

The Kiwi. Drinking culture is pretty [00:03:00] entrenched. It's a big part of growing up. Binge drinking is another way of saying just getting out with your mates and chopping lots of beers, pretty much. And it, it was a bullet point, right? Throughout growing up. I look at one of the first photos I've got when I talk about my journey is me holding, two steins of beer at the Munich Beer Fest which was the rite of passage for all young New Zealanders who traveled overseas to drink as much as possible.

And wow. Got my dream job working for Heineken at age of 24 and was with them for 25 years. And I, I love. All of it. But man, I was in the middle of the machine and I was part of that machine that encouraged us all to enjoy lots of beers as regularly as possible in as many places as possible.

And quite honestly, [00:04:00] at that time, me and everyone around me thought it was great. And I certainly had no reason to think otherwise. And quite, yeah, that whole living the dream really came true for me quite late in my career. When I ended up setting up a whole new division in Amsterdam running Heineken's Craft and Variety portfolio, I was a director of a 5 billion euro business for Heine.

All from little old New Zealand and yeah, took all the boxes for me. It was it was, what I'd written down as something I wanted to do as a young fella. What really shifted though is pretty much looking at that, like assessing my state of play back in, 2019 and I didn't like what I saw and so I gave myself a yellow card. [00:05:00] And from there, quite a whirlwind of five years of change. 

Emma: Yeah. Wow. That's. How did you what? Oh, what 

what was it about, like what were you assessing? You've, like you were saying you had the dream career, it's something that you put down in your goals and, but what was it that made you go, actually there might be something better out there.

Grant: It was 145 kilograms.

I'd been using a sleep apnea machine for 10 years. My heart rate was at 70 plus beats a minute. I couldn't run round the block. My dream of being an all black was probably over, 

Emma: just a little past it. 

Grant: And I know what that 

Kevin: is too, of the previous episodes. 

Grant: Yeah. And like a lot of other people I actually really [00:06:00] got a lot out of the COVID lockdown that blowtorch of reality condensed into a few short months while we were in Amsterdam, revealed all of my habits and all their glory.

And adding to that real sense of, not being in any control any longer, being at the mercy of others, deciding what my fate was going to be. And at that time as a New Zealander, we were locked out of New Zealand, we were locked in our homes. It was looking pretty grim.

The only places you could go in Amsterdam was the doctor of the supermarket. So that was another two bottles of wine and some beers because there was nothing else to do. 

Kevin: And I just couldn't see it getting any better. 

Grant: And I'd read this book an Australian guy and 'cause I was quite motivated to lose weight.

I actually never thought it was a drinking problem. I just thought it was a, I had a [00:07:00] weight issue. And there's this guy called Peter Fit Simons. He wrote this book called the Great Aussie Slim Down. And I look, I'd read it and I'd given it a couple of cracks, but I'd never gone all in. 

Emma: And 

Grant: he was like, man, you need to measure to stay motivated. And this is what will happen if you do this. If you stop drinking, you'll lose 10 kgs. If you start walking 10,000 steps a day, you'll lose 10 kgs. If you eat better, which is basically code for bread and sugar, you'll lose 10 kgs. And if you do all three together, you'll lose another 10.

So I went all in and I lost 45 kilograms and 45 weeks, and it's still off. But more than that, all this other stuff, all this unexpected, wonderful, beautiful stuff happened along the way. And five years later it's still happening. I'm still this wonderful [00:08:00] reveal is still happening five years later.

Emma: Yeah. I love that wonderful reveal. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny how you say, you started to do it to lose a bit of weight and, cut the IES out and you'll lose a few kilos and I think so many of us that's a motivating factor. Or like a kickstart for so many of us. And then, yeah, it's these.

Unexpected side effects that, 

That come down the track. To be fair, I didn't lose any weight in the beginning because I upped the sugar and the bread.

Grant: Yeah, exactly. That happens. And the coffee. 

Emma: Yeah. But yeah, that, wanting to lose a little bit of weight and someone's personal trainer or someone at the gym says, oh, just give up alcohol for a month and see what happens.

And you'll drop a few kilos and you're like, oh yeah, cool. And then you realize all of these other unintended consequences of consequences. Oh. And at the time, 

Grant: I was the global director of craft and variety for Heineken. It defined me. It was my, I was the craft beer guy. Every time I went to a market to share what the future of craft beer was gonna be [00:09:00] like.

It was all on, they were out to get me, in a fun way. Let's drink, let's out drink the craft. Like totally defined me. And that's where that COVID lockdown meant we went a hundred percent online. And that that I suppose that focus, that all that pressure I'd put on myself, it just came off for that little window, which was enough for me to really stop with that part of the beer shelf.

And what happened was I then looked at another part of the beer shelf because I still love beer and it, it's just the alcohol bit that that little fractional 5% of the beverage that I wasn't in love with, any longer. So my fear with beer continued, but I divorced one whole section that just didn't interest me anymore.

The great thing about Amsterdam was that for the Dutch non Elk beer is already 10% of total beer. It's massive. It's [00:10:00] everywhere. It's not a topic of are you drinking this or that, you're just having this type of beer, which happens to be zero. So I went from quite a nonbeliever, if I'm really honest, that what part of beer is this.

It wasn't for me then, but then I discovered. And all the benefits of the Dutch non elk choices and how flavorful they were and the story behind it all. And I'm like, man pretty quickly, even though I was still in my job at Heineken, a lot of craft non elk beers came out in that next year.

'cause I was really like, man, this is definitely the future. But part of that whole period was also knowing that my time my corporate time was gonna come to an end. It was this slow but obvious reveal that we were all gonna lose our jobs in the years time. So it also gave me time to prepare for life after corporate.[00:11:00]

Kevin: Okay. Yeah. 'cause I was wondering what the timeline was from, lockdown, COVID, and then starting state of play. Because yeah, and I always thought too I'm like, this is my identity. I I love craft beers, I love my whiskeys, all that stuff. Those were the two things.

And I, I'd go talk to the guy at that one store by us and we would always like, oh, he's oh, I got some new stuff in for you. It's all that stuff. It became who I was. But now I'm like, I was playing around like compared to like you were, it's your job.

You're in it. Yeah. So I was curious how that shift happened 

Grant: early 2020. I was trying to think the other day from one Jan, I was in South Africa, France, UK. Brazil, 

Where else were we? 

Oh, there was a few other country. It was just manic. We were just one after the other talking craft beer. And then March 16th we got the letter. Or the email. Don't come into the [00:12:00] office. We're in lockdown. 

Emma: Lockdown. Yep. 

Grant: And I was there for another, almost 18 months and I only lived 500 meters from the office in in Central Amsterdam.

Never went back. So like March 16th was that day. They kept everyone's jobs for the year. They said, it's all gonna be you've all got your jobs. But we also, we all knew that the following march it was all over. And then actually New Zealand. They were a bit late in the lockdown piece.

So we actually, we had to play it was called MIQ but we had to play MIQ roulette to try and get back into the country, and we finally got back in July 2021. And we're back for five days. And then New Zealand went into full lockdown after that. But I was, I'd already was quite well practiced by then.

And at that point I wasn't starting state of play. I was, I had a few like ideas. But there was, it wasn't it wasn't certain, certainly set up, [00:13:00] but man I got back and went, we are, three years at least behind the rest of the world here in terms of what's available. And.

Instead of supporting other people and other businesses like I had for the previous 20 years I thought it's time for me to walk my own talk. And yeah, we launched we set up the business in in December of 21 and we had our first IPA canned late March, 2022 and on shelf late April.

And it's been a pretty brisk three years since then. 

Emma: Yeah, I think when I, so I just before we started recording I said report to told Grant that state of play was one of the first alcohol free beers I found on my, when I started trying to be alcohol free. So it would've been maybe two and a half years ago.

Not one of the first ones that I found. One of the first ones that I enjoyed, there were a lot, there were a few out here, like I remember drinking alcohol free beers when I was [00:14:00] pregnant and not really enjoying them. There are some average ones out there. But I think at that point there were, maybe, there were definitely two, two state of play beers, but maybe three, two and a half, three years ago.

Kevin: Yeah. 

Emma: And now there's 5, 5, 

Kevin: 6. Yeah. Five five. 

Emma: So it's been, in the short time that I've known about state of play, it's you've grown so much. It's, there's definitely, a market out there, particularly in New Zealand of people are getting curious about alcohol, free beer Oh yeah. And what's available.

Grant: Yeah. Yeah. 

Emma: And wanting that that quality and that taste without just because it doesn't have alcohol and it doesn't mean it needs to be. 

Grant: Oh. And like you said in, in the intro. The most competitive category in the most untrusted segment with a brand that people most mostly think will be totally shit, is basically the start point.

Like any other craft brewery, it's fanfare and, [00:15:00] all this rapturous applause and then a non elk brewery turns up, oh my God, I'm suspicious. So much suspicion, what's this guy up to? So we've really had to earn our stripes. And I remember in the first couple of months I got some great advice from a guy that I, I dropped some beers off to and he was a big fan of the, I can't remember the author, but the title is a thousand True Fans.

You only need a thousand True fans to to grow a business. And I've, it has stuck with me right from the beginning and I've really tried to keep this brand personal. 

And and I don't outsource our consumer connection at all. I want it to be real. I want it to be personal and for others to, to retell the story gives them a proof point for the brand that, it's worth holding account of state of play.

Emma: Yeah, it was funny when I reached out to you. I went onto the website. I don't believe it or not, everyone in America listening, everyone in New Zealand doesn't know each other. I [00:16:00] went onto the state of play website and just went onto like the contact form and just emailed off like, Hey, I am doing a podcast, but it would be great to have someone from your team on.

And I got an email back from Grant from the guy not, your marketing team or your whatever liaison. So it's yeah, very, a very personal touch. The big boss just flicks off an email. Yeah, that sounds fun. Let's do it. 

Kevin: Yeah. And for the record if you're referring to me and saying, I asked you, do you know Grant, do you know this guy before?

Yeah. And that just meant from a social media standpoint, did you connect there? That type of thing. I didn't mean oh yeah, he just brought me some beer over to my house last night. 

Emma: No, but whenever you're traveling, you're like, oh yeah, I'm from New Zealand. They're like, oh yeah, do you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah from Dunedin.

And I'm like, no, that's a different island. Definitely happens. But yeah. Yeah, you, there's usually two, we call it two degrees of separation in New Zealand, you usually know someone who knows someone and you've got a connection. Two degrees of separation connection, [00:17:00] anywho, great side talk. 

Kevin: Yeah. And I was why is it so untrusted?

What do you hear and what do people say about it? 

Grant: It's entrusted because that's the defense mechanism for Yeah. People who drink, it's the start point is a whole series of questions of suspicion about my problem that I must have that then reflects on the people I'm talking to who are clouding over instantly while talking to me, assessing whether they have a problem or not, and whether we're going to be talking about a problem.

And I'm like, mate, I just wanna share a beer. You can do whatever you want. And the line that I use is in instead of legislating our way out of a drinking problem, I think with with good choice comes great change, and having a good choice of beers that can really defend.

From a taste point of view that we [00:18:00] are not totally shit. With a story from a guy who has been on both sides, who understands how it all works the right price point, the right availability, all the things that you have to do, then now it's totally up to you. And at the end of the day, if you don't want it, it's still okay.

And like a lot of the trash talk I get on social media the line I go back with, we are here for when you're ready. Yeah, you might not be, you might not be ready for a state of play now, but soon as you are, we are here for you. 

Emma: Yeah, I love that. And I think it's really great to know that you've come from this, corporate background of, one of the biggest, almost well known beer brands in, in the world.

So you do know, that competitive. Market, what you're in for, what you're up against, both sides of the coin. I think that's really cool as well.

Kevin: I feel it probably lend some credibility too whenever people are like, who is this guy? And it's oh, okay.

Yeah. He knows. Talk about 

growing 

Emma: beer in his basement or something 

Kevin: in Yeah. In my basement in [00:19:00] Cleveland here. Just being like, okay, let's try and make some of this. 

Grant: What I definitely know is how hard it is for this to be a successful business. I've, I knew, I know that from the word go. This is a scale business based on macro supply chain economics.

There is no value in being small in this industry. You have to get to a degree of efficiency for it to work and and to be profitable is is not easy. We have been and we still are. And our volumes. Yeah. We're we're in the top 20 breweries in New Zealand now, and the third biggest non elk independent brewery.

And if you'd asked me that three years ago, I'd be like, I'll definitely take that. Because now we're getting to a point where we can have five beers available. We can start doing the big runs and we can start becoming a bit more efficient. But, that's a bit the difference for [00:20:00] me is that I've known that from the beginning.

I didn't come in here going, I'm just gonna try and grow a hobby. I knew how tricky it's gonna be. I don't have a staff of thousands, so the reason why you didn't get an email from anyone else is because there isn't anyone else.

But yeah I think it's, it's that shifting now from a trust point of view is we've now got enough of those thousand true fans out there going, give this a go. If you've got a thousand people telling their friends and family, oh, I've had this one, what do you think then we're away.

And then that physical distribution and access can then play it, play its part you, 'cause in that first couple of years, if you're holding a state of play, if you're holding one of these cans here, people know you're drinking non a, it's not like we're Heineken.

That's just got a slightly blue label [00:21:00] or an ASHI that's got a little bit of a zero, you're on the zero train. And more and more people are now going, I'm really proud to be showing people that I'm drinking this, and this is a badge of honor 

now 

that I know state of play and I'm a believer in this brand.

So yeah, that's where I'm really like, optimistic that we're in a, we're been in a big catch up phase of products that are of the right quality and now the real brand connection is starting to really pay off. 

Kevin: Yeah. And the more that people do that, the more that people are proud to show okay, yeah, I'm not hiding what I'm drinking.

Like I used to hide when I'm drinking, when going to places and yeah, throw it in, coo coozies or Yetis or whatever the, and, but now it's yeah, if I get a non-alcoholic at a bar or a restaurant, I'm flipping that label out so everybody sees what it is. Yeah.

And and just, yeah, if they wanna ask a question, go for it. Or [00:22:00] I'm taking more to a party because people are always curious oh, how is that? And then they try it and they're like, shit, that's good. 

Grant: What I've been able to 

also do is provide people with a bit of when people get challenged, on what you're drinking, I'm giving people now some real quality cues that they can go back and whether it be the hops we use, the process why it tastes so much better. People becoming much more interested in in why ABIs tastes so good and then replay that to people that they're talking to, which is, it's now getting to the point, 'cause I've, like I said, I've been 25 years.

And Emma, you all know Montes is, is a big brand in New Zealand, but, in 1996 it was a tiny little brand that I helped Oh. Launch from the West Coast. So I know the cycle that brands go through and segments go through and craft beer. 15 years ago was this tiny little segment that we started talking about hops, and we started talking about [00:23:00] flavors.

Now non elk is that segment that people are sitting around talking about, oh, what's your favorite? And oh yeah, I've had this. You're onto something when people are talking about, oh, do you like the nectar on? Or do you like the IPA? Or what about the SunRail?

Or, we've just launched a chocolate stout and people are going, oh my God, we've got all these flavors because the the fact that there's no alcohol, 'cause alcohol, it blends all your flavors together in beers. And when you don't have alcohol, if you do brew a really nice beer, the way that you taste it is in the reverse order of how you brew it.

So you get all these amazing flavors from beginning, middle, and end. So people in there going, I'm actually getting a better beer experience with these products than what I'm used to from the alcoholic version. I just can't help but be optimistic that we've got, we're heading in the right direction.

Yeah. 

Emma: Yeah. This is fascinating. I'm so [00:24:00] excited to have an actual brewer on to be able to pick your brain and ask questions. So what's the most. Challenging. I actually, I have two questions. First of all, what's the most challenging part of creating an alcohol free beer that actually tastes good? 

Grant: Yeah.

There's two get technical for a little second here, Emma. There's basically two ways of doing alcohol free beer. You either remove the alcohol or you brew it to a strength of less than 0.5. So the two different processes, so the big brands, the Heineken, the Sahi, Corona, or all those, they brew a full strength beer.

And then they generally, most often use a a a mechanical alcohol removal method called vacuum distillation, where they basically put this beer into a vacuum, heat it up to 40 odd degrees, and basically a bit like whiskey, distill all the alcohol away. It's really effective. Very efficient.

It does. Remove all the alcohol [00:25:00] and a lot of the nice bits, the aromas, the little esters, all those nice beer flavors. So then what those big brewers will do is they'll add some hot extract and sugar back into the beer. So one of the, one of the good parts is you really get a 0.0. One of the bad parts is when you have a look at the back of the beer bottle.

There's a a lot of sugar in a lot of those beer. So you might be giving up alcohol, but you can often be actually getting another fix. And they, all these beers are really good laggers, real nice, crisp, easy drinking, laggers, the other method oh, and you need a big machine. To do that, you need to, yeah.

Sounds like a big 

Emma: hunk of equipment. 

Grant: It's big. Yeah. Then the other way, and this is where the innovation is really piling on in the segment, is we use a yeast called a low attenuated yeast, which feeds off the simple sugars that you create in when you mash or boil up or your [00:26:00] malted barley at the beginning of the beer process, and it feeds on the simple sugars converts those fully ferment.

So you get all these esters, sesqui, turpins, polyphenols, all the stuff that is amazing in beer, but only creates as a byproduct, 0.3% alcohol, which is less than a ripe banana, less than sourd bread, less than, there's just, there's alcohol in. Lots of the things that we eat, but such a tiny amount.

And then it allows us to to add flavors and hops. There's a term called dry hopping in craft beer, which is where you add a whole lot of hops, the very end of the brewing process. And what you do at the beginning is what you taste first. So if you add a lot of hops at the end, you get a massive big aroma and flavor burst when you first open a canon.

Can of beer. We have chosen the second approach. Even if we had the access to vacuum distillation, we wouldn't use it. We would still use this approach. [00:27:00] We just think that the quality of the beer, the flavor that you get from beginning, middle, and end, you can orchestrate how you actually want that to play out.

With our vanilla stout, you get a massive hit of vanilla. Then you get a big punch of chocolate, and then you get left with some chili on the palate. At the end, we have a sun breaker ale that starts with ginger, hits some lime, then some honey, and then instead of a sweet flavor that you get from ginger bear, you get a nice bit of hot bitterness at the end.

We can really create this beautiful beer profile. With this approach. Plus we're only 59 calories a can. Yeah. So hardly any sugar next to no alcohol, but a quite different beer experience for people who, like I said in the intro, are coming from a low base of how good they think this is gonna be.

And on our cans we say taste first above all elses. And as soon as[00:28:00] like I attend some markets smells, farm market, I dunno, Emma, it's on the North Shore. I go there every month. It's my bullshit radar, my bullshit test, I think all CEOs should sell their products at a market and go ahead, 

Emma: get some honest feedback.

How 

Grant: hard is it to sell this brand, this product, and the occasion to people that have never heard of you? And I have a hundred percent hit rate. Soon as people taste they are converted. And all those previous beliefs dissipate and we've got a campaign this year, which was basically the anywhere beer.

And once people realize they can have this beer anywhere, in any occasion, not just the standard alcohol moments, but anywhere you can see people's heads like what's bloody going on here? And so they're the two approaches to brewing and. The best part of all that is because this is the only part of beer that's in [00:29:00] growth anywhere in the world.

Non elk is the only growth. Low carb beer is correcting a lot of mainstream volume. But non elk is the only in growth investors, innovators all see that. So the innovation dollar is, has swung from out here into non elk. So we'll see new yeast. We will see new techniques. We'll see hybrid drinks.

Kevin, in, in your part of the world non elk and THC is happening state by state. In other parts. In Australia there's a bit of nootropics, there's some other enhanced beverage options. That's not the case in New Zealand. Ours is really still about food code of beer is pretty tight.

But the way that we are adding hops, the way that we are adding malt the formats oils, like really it's a bonanza. That means only one [00:30:00] thing that the drinker is gonna benefit here. And the resistance to the idea of non elk is just gonna, it's gonna dissipate real quick. We've had this couple of years of even the industry not buying into it.

And now, I've been at, brewers Guild of New Zealand, I've been at, I've been at their head. Their annual conferences where their Snickers has been, have been Snickers around chuckles about, non elk. Yeah. That's not anymore. 'cause not non elk is saving this industry. Yeah.

Emma: That's so cool to hear. I think. Yeah, I feel like I, I don't know, jumped on board the alcohol free bandwagon at the beginning of the revolution kind of thing. It's it's definitely like even in the past couple of years that I've been involved in this kind of community, it's grown so much.

And it's so good to see. There's so many, yeah. Big time breweries as well as little breweries or little, manufacturers bringing out alcohol free options as alternatives, which [00:31:00] is pretty awesome. There's obviously a push in the market. It's what people want. 

Kevin: Yeah. I got excited whenever Heineken.

Okay. I was like, okay. They're like the new Odos. That's why, that's how I always look at them. They're just everywhere. Just like Odos was back in the day and probably still is, but but once I I liked Guinness and once Guinness Zero came out, I was like, Ooh. I'm like, so the more people, the more big players that came out, I was like, okay, so they're obviously taking this seriously.

Emma: Yeah. And

Kevin: seeing that, and I loved it from that perspective. Okay, they're going based on where the market's going. And so that was positive. And, but obviously I love all the craft. Non-alcoholic beers because like you said, like there's a, you say there's an upward trend for the low calorie alcoholic beers.

And I, when I think of that, I think of based on ads like Miller Lite, mic Ultra, those types of things, Miller Lite advertising, they have one less calorie than Bud [00:32:00] Light. Like it matters at, at that point. And I know it's just funny and whatever, they can do that. But I remember seeing Make a Low Ultra ads with people after their workouts and they're like, cheers and all this stuff.

And it's if you want a low calorie beer, guess what? And flavor. Yeah. Yeah. Non-alcoholic is the way to go. 

Grant: Beer is gen is pretty low calorie regardless. But the marketeer has got hold of of the calorie count. And I actually think that the best thing is for people to be able to sit around and actually have a, share a beer, share a social moment, and enjoy it. And a beer with no flavor.

I'm like, oh, please give me something. With nine out you, you get all the flavor. 'cause the calories, most of the calories are in the alcohol molecule, so you're getting it there. But the Heineken one is and the big brand role. It was amazing when I was at Heineken to see.

Only until [00:33:00] Heineken launched in a country did non ALK kickoff. 

Kevin: Wow. 

Grant: So it's got a really important role Yeah. To let people know it's okay. There's a big ramp. Yeah.

Kevin: And it's, we just went and saw F1, the movie with Brad Pitt and Heineken Zero was all over the place, like ads at the arenas, and like the drivers were drinking it.

They were drinking other stuff too. They were drinking alcoholic drinks, but Heineken Zero was front and center. I noticed a lot of it. My wife I was like, did you notice anything? Zero. She's what do you mean? I'm like, okay. No, you didn't. My eyes, like I'm, look, I always look for that stuff.

It's such a, it's such, I thought that was cool. Such 

Grant: it's such a clever play for them because it's the only part of beer for them in growth. It's ticking some real social responsibility. Yeah. Angle. And also it means they can advertise and they can be in movies and they can do billboards and they can do television in markets that have banned alcohol [00:34:00] advertising.

When you go I, a couple of years ago I, Heineken Heineken and Russia billboards everywhere. Heineken Zero. You couldn't you couldn't promote Heineken full strength. But they're pretty clever because Heineken and Heineken Zero. Isn't that different from a brand different 

Emma: packaging?

Yeah. 

Grant: Or Guinness. And Guinness Zero. And all of a sudden now Guinness is sponsoring the Six Nations rugby. Bud was part of the Olympics with Bud Zero. Yeah, I think they're also a little bit clever there with with the F1. And they're getting some great brand visibility that Yeah. Halos, the Heineken brand and every market kicks off.

It's the only segment in beer that has grown in in reverse. So normally the small guys like Lagunitas in the US will start IPA and then da, and then slowly the big guys go, oh, it's big enough now. And then we'll play non now. 'cause the only segment in beer with the big guys have actually launched it.

And, oh, the rest of, and the rest of us are in catchup [00:35:00] mode. 

Emma: Yeah. 

Grant: And letting people know that actually there's more flavor and more than just A zero lager that the one that's bucking the trend really at the moment is Guinness zero. And I was over in London a couple of months ago, and.

And who would've thought in Ireland over 20% of Guinness volume is now Heineken is now Guinness Zero. 

Emma: Wow. That's so cool. It blows my 

Grant: mind. Yeah. And it tastes amazing and was a real inspiration for me to launch my chocolate stout. The difference being, it would probably take Diaggio three years to launch a new product, whereas I was able to do it in three months, 

Emma: wow. 

Kevin: Wow. Yeah. 

Emma: That's so cool. How do you come up with 'cause it sounds like when you are brewing the beers and it's all about like flavor profiles and stuff, is it a bit of like trial and error, chuck this in, see what happens? 

Grant: Yeah, it's a little bit tricky because you have to use quite a big commercial brewing facility for non elk.

You have to pasteurize which is also a big. [00:36:00] Machine, piece of machinery that you don't have in your own garage. I partner up with a little brewery called Fortune Favors in Wellington, and we do a whole lot of little trial brews down there. And then and then we go from 20 liter brews to 5,000 liter brews.

And hope that it turns out okay. Touch wood, it's been pretty good so far. And that's not, that's why not everyone has launched a zero alcohol brewery 'cause it's actually but tricky. Yeah, you can't do it in your own garage, like you can full strength beer. You've gotta start at a scale point from zero and, if you wanna make a change to your recipe you've gotta sell the first 30,000 cans you've made before you can get onto the next one.

But, yeah. Three, three years later we're we still have all of our brews. And I think, we've got a nice sort of flavor wheel now where we cover a lot of the different characteristics of beer that meet most occasions. 

Emma: Yeah. I [00:37:00] think you've answered 

where my next question was going, but a question we get or something that gets mentioned a lot in our meetings and from our community is, why is alcohol free beer so the same price as regular beer?

It's got no alcohol in it. Why is it so expensive? 

Grant: Yeah. The New Zealand difference is excise and so the amount of excise in a six pack is between $2 50 and $3, depending on what a BV you're comparing it to. Our six packs retail, anywhere from 18 to. $20 and an equivalent size craft brewery is selling their six pack actually for 24 to $27.

So I actually think we're cheaper. And that's because it's really competitive to, to win in this segment. We do need to use more hops alcohol does. Absorb all those flavors like we talked about. So you actually need less ingredients when [00:38:00] you're brewing in a full alcohol product. So from a hot point of view, to get that real sticky, dank, resinous attribute of hot, you actually need to add even more.

So that's a cost we need to use that special yeast each time. What normally happens with craft beer is they re-pitch the same yeast over and over again, so there's actually more costs. And, I can, so I can see why people do have this claim of it being like, why isn't it cheaper? But they're also not comparing apples with apples most of the time.

Yeah. 

Emma: Yeah. I was, as you were explaining the whole brewing process, I was like, so it's actually brewing it's not necessarily, it's different, but it's not necessarily any easier or less laborsome to brew an alcohol free beer. Just the same. The big guys 

Grant: are adding two new, two additional processes.

They're built, they're brewing the beer, they're de alkalizing the beer, and they're rebuilding the beer. Then they only do that in so many parts of the world. So [00:39:00] instead of in New Zealand getting Heineken that's brewed in Auckland, New Zealand, they're getting ized Heineken zero from Singapore. So then there's shipping costs 

Emma: and 

Grant: So e even the big guys, it's more expensive.

And then for us, yeah, it's the same, it's the same process, but a little different with some more costs. And just for us it's just cost of being small. 

Emma: Yeah. It's not just fizzy water with a flavor of beer there's to it. 

Grant: Nah, exactly. 

Kevin: And I've always just made the assumption, any non-alcoholic beer, I'm like, it's still beer.

If somebody asks that, I'm like, it's still beer. So the process isn't any cheaper or less ingredients or anything like that. That's actually more yeah. And yeah, because the only time I've ever had issue with non-alcoholic stuff, it's usually like on a menu [00:40:00] where it's like a mixed drink, like a mocktail and I'm like, really $15 for that.

Like those ingredients, like that kind of stuff. I agree, because that's clearly you're not including alcohol and all that, but. This is totally different. And yeah. Yeah. And you listen to, you talk and you have that much greater appreciation for the process too. Yeah. 

Grant: And just by being small, this can costs 30 cents, the lid costs 7 cents.

If you are Heineken or Budweiser, that can cost you 5 cents. Like it's actually the whole it's just an, it's another one of those easy, have a crack at non elk, because I'm not quite a fan yet. By this being a, like a a reason not to drink it. I also go back and say it's 15, $15, 70 a six pack if you buy online free shipping, over a hundred dollars.

Yes 

Emma: there is. And, 

Grant: We'll make it affordable for you, easy. [00:41:00]

Emma: Yeah, it's it's what I re very, I distinctly remember in the beginning of my alcohol free journey, my husband, like we've got, the cupboard above the fridge that used to have all the alcohol in it, and it was just jam packed of all the different flavors of all the different things.

And he was like, I thought you quit drinking alcohol. We were gonna save some money, but I don't think we are. And it was, yeah, it was like, so I very much learned the free shipping. If you spend over a hundred a just on by one of every flavor 

Grant: on that little topic, Emma, I, we talk about right at the beginning my I was quite motivated by weight.

I didn't think that I'd ever lose my sleep apnea machine, but while you lose 45 kilograms other thing, you get other benefits. But my wife started a sober calculator. 'Cause we both stopped at the same time. And we've just rolled over $70,000. That's a big number. Yeah, that's huge.

Kevin: Yeah. I, that's it's, I [00:42:00] wish got 70,000. I gotta go into Yeah. Know. I gotta go into reframe. Yeah, I know. I gotta go into reframe and look at my tracker and see where I'm at. About 70,000. 

Emma: Yeah. I don't, I unfortunately have picked up some of the bad habits candy, coffee, travel. 

Kevin: Yeah. 

Grant: Oh, I think, yeah, that's true.

Kevin: My my total money saved is 48,000. $639, which of which I have. Of which I have zero. 

Grant: Yeah. 

Kevin: Yeah. 

Grant: Although that's with the New Zealand dollar conversion, we're about the same. 

Kevin: Okay, 

Emma: good point. Excellent point. Good thinking.

Kevin: Yeah, that's what I said. I'm like, I use that money early on to justify a lot of things.

Tattoos, coffee mugs, coffee yeah. Lots and lots of justifications with that money. I would just would've been spending this but I had to be careful 'cause, I couldn't go too high telling my wife like I just would've, nevermind. 

Grant: I wouldn't spend that much on, 

Kevin: don't [00:43:00] worry. She's not gonna listen to this probably.

So I'm good. That's fine. That's awesome. The yeah, what would you say.

Yeah. What would you say to someone who is sober curious, who is maybe worried about missing out? And obviously everybody is different, how they approach this and what where they go with it, whether it's sober, curious, I'm just gonna try this once. Yeah. And see how it is. Or start, incorporating it into me drinking this and alcoholic beer, or as a way to if I'm sober or a alcohol free or whatever.

What do you tell people when they ask that? 

Grant: Yeah. I think if people are wondering whether they should be curious or go in, I think at that point they've al they already know that. They need to go all in. And my advice is is you have to make it [00:44:00] personal and you have to do it for yourself, not anyone else.

And it's like that classic airline safety video of put on your own mask before supporting others. 

I'm a big believer in, in, in that, and following on from Mr. Peter, but Simon's advice, definitely the guys like me, you have to see the pro progress to keep motivated, but, day at a time. For me the weight thing was a really obvious way for me to get through that first a hundred days, a hundred days into going alcohol free, still have that photo of me holding an empty water water cooler, 18 kilogram water cooler, and going, this used to be, this used to be here. Wow. Yeah. And just those little motivators. And for me I knew that I had a big year ahead of me.

And that at the end of that year, I stopped, we stopped [00:45:00] drinking on July the second. And a year later we were back to New Zealand. So I said, yeah, within that year, I need to get down to double figures and weight. Have a round of golf in single figures and be able to run around Vondale Park, which was the park next to us in less than five minute 30 k time.

And it all happened in the last week. Woohoo. That's amazing. So it was so awesome. And then a few months later I just went, you know what? I'm just, why am I wearing this apnea machine? Just stop using it. I'm like, this is the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. I thought that was a life sentence.

My heart rate went from mid seventies down to mid forties, and I'm going, golly, if you're only born with so many heartbeats I might have a few extra at the other end. My motivation to start a new business I'd become quite oppressed procrastinator. Getting involved [00:46:00] in, a little bit scary as a mature beer preneur.

Got into it, bang never looked back. And then a year ago I reflected on the fact that what was so great about not drinking, stopping drinking and started walking was how much fun I used to have walking around Amsterdam with the dog and getting my steps up. And I remember back in 2019 going to Spain and being a tourist and trying to go on this attraction and basically being so big and overweight that I even took a video of myself breathing heavily at the end of it, going, this is not good.

And then. Giving myself nine months to prepare to walk the Camino de Santiago in March this year. 50 kilograms lighter and having a beer, having my own beer that was celebrating three years in business at the [00:47:00] finish line accomplishing all these things. At one, it was just like, man, this gift is just.

Giving more and more all the time. 

Emma: That is so cool. I love that. I love that you had your own beer at the finish line. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Can you imagine strapping on like an 18 kilo or a 50 kilo backpack and just living life like, oh 

Kevin: yeah, 

Emma: Kevin, so that's

Kevin: I'm doing it, it's 110 pounds. I have it up, don't worry.

Emma: Just ready for the auto conversions. Yeah. 50 kilos is 110 pounds. Like it's a, that's a, that's almost an size. Yeah. Like it's me jumping on your back and Yeah. It's crazy having to walk around with me on your back all day. Yeah. Like wild. 

Grant: But yeah. But when you work for something like you're in media or you're in the beverage industry.

I actually back in 90 94 when I started at Heineken in Christchurch. The one of the reps there that I sat next to on that [00:48:00] first day, I said, oh, have you got any tips for me? He goes, you'll put 10 kgs on in your first year in a kg every year after that. And I was there for 25 years and I beat it by five Ks, but it was pretty close.

That's just what we all knew was gonna happen. And you get into your middle to late forties and you go, oh, just what the hell? And you can't wish it away. And we get into this quick fix two week on, two week off mentality of gyms or diets or whatever. Like once the penny drops that Einstein was right you're not gonna get a different result.

With those two bottles of wine every night till, whatever which me and I think millions of others came to the same conclusion around that kind of time. I think there's a really tricky period right now though that we've seen a real, a back to normalness starting to happen.

And there's some the [00:49:00] motivation of the consequence of COVID is now a little bit more of a memory. And so some of us are needing that little extra reason to keep going. We all we really need to do is look at our kids who think we're just idiots. They, I, my kids are 20 and 20, 23.

Alcohol's the last drug that they would suggest is worth getting into. And same with all their friends. For us if we can add as that additional little reason, we you guys, Kevin, have got your dry January. We've got dry July. There's a lot right now in New Zealand that are going through this month of hardship.

And then going, hang on, this is actually quite good. And I'm trying a whole lot of new beers, which are actually better than I thought. And a whole younger generation who I just really commend that they've really got their head screwed on when it comes to the impact of alcohol.

Hopefully as we continue to grow, we also attract more of a younger audience that is attracted to [00:50:00] the Guinness Zeros and, and hopefully state of play can form part of their repertoire as well.

Emma: Yeah. Yeah. I think there's definitely, I guess it was post COVID when we all got, a bit overweight and drank too much and, were very, some of us very unhealthy.

It's, yeah, it seems like a post COVID revolution that we're starting to be more health conscious and I guess our kids have grown up with that being a more prevalent focus for them. Yeah, I think so. Which is, I guess one of the great side effects of COVID and the lockdowns. 

Kevin: Mine, mine was a post Kevin, what?

Mine was a post, post COVID. I was good in COVID because I hit a, I hit one year in April of 2020, and and I was like, I ran a half marathon that next week I did all this. Oh, you were ahead of us all. And then it was like, and then it was a rollercoaster open, yeah with surgery, knee surgeries and everything else after.

But, yeah, I always I thank my lucky stars personally that yeah [00:51:00] I started when I did, or like the COVID wasn't a year earlier or that I didn't start a year later because that would've been a prime that would've been a prime time for me. Big drinking time. Yeah. It would've been an issue for me.

Yeah. The way I drank. I 

Grant: remember looking at all the stats when I was at Heineken and there were, there was a massive growth in non elk equally. There was a massive spike in high A BV all around the world. So you either drinking to remember or drinking to forget one or the other. That's definitely changed now.

Yeah, non elk is the only part of beer that's in in, in growth. To come back to your question I think people just have to take it personally. Figure out, like I, I just say best thing about July is not going dry. The best thing about July is to go how is my state of play?

If you're at halftime in an All Blacks game and you're assessing the performance of the team, you know what's right and what's wrong, and what can you do about what's going well? 

Yeah. And for me my brother asked me the other day, what business [00:52:00] actually are you in?

And I said, oh, I actually think I'm in the new habit business. The habit of going alcohol free the habit of going for a walk, the habit of of not doing stuff. I think we're the benefits of non elk is that. As soon as you get past that a hundred days and it sticks well, you're away.

There is gonna be, as you said, that temptation, like you're drinking you're eating lollies because that bottle of wine that you used to have had low sugar in it had about 20 spoons of sugar.

Emma: Yep. Yeah. I yeah, bless hubby. We were down in Queenstown for a conference and we kind of ships in the night, most of the time he works outta town and then I'm work travel for work as well. And we happened to be in the same hotel room in Queenstown for a week, and he very gently over breakfast one morning said.

Do you think maybe this is quite early on in my alcohol free journey, do you think maybe you've substituted [00:53:00] an alcohol addiction for coffee and sugar? And I was like, yes, a hundred percent, but what's the lesser of two evils here? Like it's, we are far better off that I'm not drinking alcohol and am jacked up on caffeine all day.

Yeah. But yeah, I absolutely, and I didn't necessarily know that was something that could or would happen.

Grant: Yeah. 

Emma: When you get off 

Grant: COVID. Yeah. I think and I think it's one of the really good consequences of COVID that period is we were under the, we did put ourselves under the spotlight. And I do, for me I even though my dry July is still going from 2020 2020 to.

I still use the month to take it. Having an assessment this month, I'm like I've started do, I've started doing Pilates and yoga every week. 'cause I'm getting older, [00:54:00] I'm getting less flexible. I can feel it and I need to work on another part of my of of Grant. I'm not saying we need to go to Grant 3.0, but, grant 2.0 is okay.

The more that we I suppose when you're in that alcohol day in, day out grind, you are just centering everything. Your high your highs aren't so high, your lows aren't so low. You're just in this lovely little plane, and that's a comfort zone for people.

Emma: What happens 

Grant: when you go alcohol free, I found is your highs are high, but you also, your lows are low. And but golly, it makes life a lot more exciting. Oh, totally. And I just feel a lot more in touch with who I am what I stand for what, how much I really need in life and what's important to me.

And I think that's really, that has revealed itself quite slowly over, over five years and continuing, to do that. 

Kevin: Yeah. Beautiful. That's amazing. [00:55:00] Yeah. All right, one last question 

Emma: before we get into our nuggets of the week. Do you have a favorite brew or is that trying to pick your favorite child?

Grant: I get that question a lot and I, I do prefer my the moment my biggest. Drinking moments. More hop forward beers. So my hoppy hazy, IPA then the sun's out and it's all golden lager and sun breaker. I'll go with I'll go with my hazy just 'cause I think that this hot, this nectar on is like to the.

Just the greatest expression of New Zealand hops that you can get. So yeah. I'll smash a few of these. 

Kevin: Is that on the can, a fruit ball to the face? Fruit ball to the face.

Grant: A hazy dry hop, zero pale ale bursting with intense tropical flavors. And the punch you in the nose aroma of New Zealand nectar on hops. 

Emma: Nice. 

Kevin: Close enough. There we [00:56:00] go. Yeah. Close enough. 

Emma: Punch you in the face. 

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. Not that you asked Emma, but I wrote down one beer on this that, that you mentioned Gran and it was Vanilla Stout.

I believe was one of the newer ones. Am I, 

Grant: yeah. 

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. I actually, that's that's my, that's right. My alley 

Grant: I partnered up with. I suppose one of the things that I've figured out is I'm good at some stuff, but actually other people are a lot better, at most other things. And when it came to coming out with a stat, like I've really thought, I think the whole Guinness Zero, the Stout, like it's a great way to get people into beer and stay in beer a bit longer.

But I didn't have any. Clues about that style. So I partnered up with a chocolate maker in in Wellington called Barron Hasselhoffs. They're a crazy quirky crew that do lots of weird and wonderful stuff. And I, and so we basically sat down, we did a base brew in Wellington of a stout.

Basically to make a stout, you [00:57:00] use really dark malts, and that's those dark malts turn into a dark beer. You can add a bit of lactose, which is from milk that adds body and sort of viscosity that you'll get in a stout. And then he's yeah. So we need to add cacao from p and g, some vanilla from Tonga.

I've got star anise, I've got cinnamon, and I've got this mix of five different chilies that I think it's just gonna be outstanding and away we went. Kevin for your flavor journey, you need to get hold of some I know I want 

Kevin: that even more now. 

Emma: All sounds empowering. Kevin. Some 

Kevin: Emma. I'm going on I'm taking my daughter on college tours tomorrow over the next couple days.

So we have a whirlwind tour. You're expected by the time 

Emma: you get home? 

Kevin: What's that? Oh yeah. No. You expect 

Emma: to box by the time you get home. I was 

Kevin: gonna say that Emma's been trying to get me to bring her over to New Zealand for a college tour and be like, she'd come over here and go to school.

Exactly.

Emma: [00:58:00] Trying to, I'm a heartbeat away from enrolling her in Auckland Uni myself. Like she can live in, I can work from anywhere 

Kevin: so 

Emma: she can come and work at husband's hotel. Like I've got a job for her. She can come and have a family meal with us every week so that she's still got family.

She'll be fine. There you 

Grant: go. Job done. 

Emma: I know. I've solved all of her problems. All of your problems. K. Yeah. I'm just, I'm here to help. And then when you come and visit, you can just take home a suitcase full of, instead of plate beers and 

Grant: chocolate. Liquid and chocolate, you can, or you can have the chocolate either.

Emma: I, I go, so the last couple of years for my sub anniversary, I've gone over to America to celebrate with my reframe family with Kevin. And I take approximately 23 kilos of New Zealand chocolate candy and coffee. I go over with a suitcase full of treats.

Kevin: Yeah. And then have to buy suitcases on the way back and then have to buy another 

Emma: suitcase on the way home.

'cause I've packed, bought so much American candy. 

Kevin: Oh my God. 

Emma: Yes. 

Kevin: [00:59:00] Yeah. Nice. 

Emma: Worth it though. But yeah, so Kevin's had Whitakers, he's had Cadbury, he's had pineapple lumps, he's had crunchy bars. 

Kevin: You can, and you can stop bringing all of it. Just bring me the hokey pokey crunch, the crunchy bars. Pokey. Pokey. Yep.

Pokey. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I like my fve. Yeah. So good. Yep. Alrighty. A box of chocolate starters coming away. Kevin, I'll get my hands on a box for you. 

Emma: Okay. Alrightyy friends, now we're at the part of the episode where we wanna share a little nugget for the week, something that you've learned completely off topic.

Doesn't have to be anything to do with alcohol. And as always, it's come as a shock to Kevin and I that we do this segment every week.

Kevin: Actually, follow on, but go ahead. 

Emma: I have a your nugget that you mentioned earlier has helped me with my nugget, if you're following along last week Kevin was shocked that I had not seen Fight Club.

So over the past weekend I watched Fight Club, flight [01:00:00] Club for the first time. Was not what I thought it was gonna be. Great movie. So it's my favorite movie 

Kevin: still to this day. 

Emma: My I is probably should have watched Fight Club in 

Kevin: Life. 

Emma: I think I need to watch it again 'cause I think I missed 

Kevin: 20 years ago.

Yeah. Oh yeah. There's all kinds of stuff. I think I missed 

Emma: a few things. 

Kevin: Yeah. 

Emma: Yeah. But also why was everyone talking about Brad Pitt? Sure, he's great, but. Edward Norton was the MVPI 

Kevin: think it was a dual performing, we argued about this already. Did. I think it was a dual performance grant.

Any observations on this? 

Grant: It's gonna involved, I'm on this one. 

Kevin: I'm mad on this one. I think both of them are the, without the other, that movie wouldn't have been as good. Like those two together were awesome. 

Emma: Yeah. But when, yeah. Yes. Yeah. But when I, when you think about as someone who's not seen the movie, had not seen the movie, I thought it was all Brad hit and everyone else was just side characters.

Oh. But

Kevin: no. [01:01:00]

Emma: Do it. So yes, my nugget is 

go 

and watch Fight Club. That was a good time. 

Kevin: Yeah. I introduced that to my, I think we talked about that. Yeah. My daughter and she was like, she said, oh, I knew that was it. And then at the end she's I didn't know that was, it was coming. Grantee, anything You want me to go?

Grant: Yeah. Two days ago, as I look out my window I actually discovered that what I thought was a lemon tree was actually a mandarin tree. And I can tell you that eating fresh mandarins is a daily pleasure. 

Emma: So good. Yum. I love, we don't have a mandarin tree. We, but I've gone 

Grant: five years thinking they were lemons, so there we go.

Emma: Because they didn't ripen like a mandarin's. Quite different to a i 

Grant: they look a bit lemony, but now I look at them and they go, they look a lot more Mandarin. 

Emma: Oh yeah. I wonder if it's one of those Frankenstein ones where like half of it grows lemons and half of it grow. [01:02:00] RINs 

Grant: has something to do with my the fact that I might be good with beer, but I'm not very good with any other horticulture.

Emma: Nice. I love that. In America, do you call Mandarin something? You call them Clementines? Is it a Mandarin? 

Kevin: There's, I mean we have oranges, nectarines, clementines, mandarin. There's a clementine, mandarin. I think mandarins are like, we call it mandarin oranges. But usually those are like already. No, they're not.

Mandarin. Oranges and clementines are different. 

Emma: Maybe I'm getting tangibles. Maybe OSes are clementines.

We don't have clementines in New Zealand. We don't, but I remember Googling at some point 

Kevin: because Clementines are a small, for some reason, like the Cuties or whatever the hell they call 'em. That's might be a brand. That's a brand. I dunno. I dunno. I don't wish probably Google this them, because I'm lazy [01:03:00] and I have to You don't wanna 

Emma: peel them.

Kevin: Yeah. 

Emma: But like, when you crack into a Mandarin and

Kevin: I know it I love it every time I do it, but I'm super lazy. That's the level of my laziness. Wow. I'll go outta my way to do some stupid shit, like the hard way and then I'll be like, nah, that's too much work. You're peeling my, I can't peel that.

Like my brain is a weird place. Okay. But. I guess

Emma: what's your nugget? Save yourself. 

Kevin: Yeah, I guess I'll go with I'll stick with the only thing I thought of is along the movie lines as well. And this isn't no spoilers. We went and saw Superman this weekend, just came out and, we were, we left theater.

Oh, it was so good. And, and, we all had to make the restroom stop because we drank a small soda, which is like a gallon. And and then we come out. And so they were all waiting for me. I come out [01:04:00] and we turned the corner and they're like, how? And all these people are just waiting there 'cause everybody did that.

And my wife's so what'd you think? I'm like, Superman sucks. Batman rules. She's you didn't like it? I'm like, no, I loved it. No, I didn't say I loved it. I'm like, I really enjoyed it. It was a great, very entertaining movie. It was a good movie. But I love Batman. I have a Batman tattoo on my foot.

I got a flash tattoo. Wow, you rolled that Mean Uhhuh. But it just reinforced how much I just love Batman. That's it. And it's. I like it. Batman fr I like my heroes Dark almost like a villain versus, Superman. So it was a very good movie, though. Happy I went and saw it.

Also negative the week. DC Comics needs to get their shit together. 'cause until they make things cohesive like Marvel did. I'm sick of seeing all these kind of just movies repeat themselves with different Superman and actors and all that. So anyway, I'm gonna step away. You saved a [01:05:00] lot of words.

Emma: I don't understand there. I 

Kevin: don't step away from the mic now. Batman rules, that's my nugget. Okay. 

Emma: We'll take it. That what I learned this week when I learned that Batman rules. 

Kevin: Yeah. I'm like a child. As I'm looking at my batwing. My Batmobile Lego. Your Lego, my you are a child. My, my Batman my Batman picture, which is the Lego art that you put together.

Yeah. Yeah. I am a child. 

Emma: You're a fully grown child. Try to, I'm trying to 

Kevin: see if Yeah. I'm a fully formed child.

Emma: Overgrown child. 

Kevin: Overgrown child. Yeah. Man, child. I feel like 

Emma: children don't have the amount of facial there you do. 

Kevin: That's my disguise. 

Emma: Okay, 

Kevin: great. Like clock in? Yeah. Or like Bruce Wayne.

Anyway. 

Grant: Spoiler alert. 

Kevin: Just kidding. 

Emma: I nearly said John Wayne. And then, and I'm so glad I [01:06:00] myself. That would've been, that would've been 

Kevin: funny. Yeah, that would've been on Instagram for sure. 

Emma: Oh, wouldn't put it past me. I'm glad my brain clicked in that quickly. 

Kevin: Grant 

Emma: picked so much for chatting with us today.

Thank you. Thanks for coming on. The thank Kevin on the tangents that, that our brains go on. If people wanna find you how is it best for them to get in touch 

Grant: play beer.com. 

Emma: Cool. 

Grant: Just hop on there. Pop that in The show notes, unfortunately are not in the us yet. Yes. We're across New Zealand.

We're in more and more of Australia over the next year. And yeah, then we'll see. We'll see where the business takes us. 

Emma: Awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much. Yeah. 

Kevin: Good luck. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for joining us today being a pleasure. And we'll pop that website and contact in the show notes as well.

Just send, go to their websites, send them an email. Grant will reply. That's [01:07:00] it. Yeah.

Thank you all for listening to another episode of the re Frameable podcast, brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you.

If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. And I wanna thank you again for listening and be sure to come back for another episode. Have a great day. Bye friends. 

Emma: My voice cracked like a teenage boy on that one.