Isolation, Community, and Finding Your Own Way

Join Coach Kevin and Coach Eric as they sit down with Nadine — a librarian, mom of two, and Reframer with almost two and a half years alcohol-free — as she opens up about the double life she thought only she was living: the master's degree, the great job, the happy family on the outside, and the nightly blackouts no one knew about. Nadine doesn't sugarcoat it, and what comes through is a story about isolation, surrender, and what it actually looks like to change — not perfectly, but for real.
The conversation digs into:

-Why feeling like the only one is part of how alcohol keeps its grip
-The difference between white-knuckling sobriety and actually doing the work
-Why your "why" matters more than your method
-How showing up in Reframe community meetings can quietly change everything
-What it means to do this for yourself, not for anyone else
-Why there's no quick fix, and why that's actually okay

The Reframeable podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the #1 app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you.
If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. If you have a topic you'd like us to cover on the podcast, send an email to podcast@reframeapp.com or, if you're on the Reframe app, give it a shake and let us know what you want to hear.

Transcript

Kevin Bellack (00:00)

Welcome everyone to another episode of the Reframable Podcast, the podcast that brings you people's stories and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship, not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more. Because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass. This podcast is brought to you by the Reframe App. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol.

It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. My name is Kevin Bellach. I'm a certified professional recovery coach and the head of coaching at the Reframe app.

Eric Fischer (00:35)

And I'm Eric Fisher. am a certified lifestyle design coach at Reframe. What's up?

Kevin Bellack (00:39)

Barric. Well, today

we are joined by fellow reframer Nadine. Nadine is a librarian living in Ontario, Canada with her two children. She is almost two and a half years alcohol free and enjoys camping, road trips, and everything that comes with it. She is here to share her story with us today. And while everyone's story is unique, she hopes that by sharing hers, she can let other people see that we are more similar than we think and that you are not alone. Welcome, Nadine.

Nadine (01:07)

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Kevin Bellack (01:08)

Yeah, thanks for coming on.

Eric Fischer (01:09)

Yeah, it's great to have you.

Kevin Bellack (01:11)

to hear I mean, I love that what you shared already with the I mean, we everybody's story, everybody's life is unique. We have our own challenges and all that. ⁓ but it but it's definitely, you know, we have more similar issues and the way we feel and think about things than we realize. So I love how you kind of set that out in the beginning here.

And love to dive in and hear a bit about your story.

Nadine (01:37)

Yeah, sure. yeah, so I think just you know, before we had got started here, we were talking about, you know, the the takeaway and what I was talking about was this idea of feeling so alone and feeling like I was the only person in the world. I can remember when I was actively drinking ⁓ and you know what I what I refer to as like in my active addiction.

⁓ I can just remember desperately wanting someone to understand what I was going through and desperately like searching for somebody or something that felt relatable for me. ⁓ and I remember thinking I was the only one. I thought I was the only person in the entire world who was able to pull off this great trick or

illusion that I had like everything together. ⁓ That you know I had a a great family and a great house and a great job and I'd gone back to school and I'd done my masters and all of these things. And that it felt like I was such a fraud. And I thought that I was the only person doing that. ⁓ And I think it you know it's part of that is that stigma

that's attached to all of the labels that exist out there, right? Alcoholic, ⁓ you know, alcohol use disorder, all of these things that I think we all grow up with this idea of alcoholic equals XYZ. ⁓ and what Reframe really did was kind of open my me up to not even just a different vocabulary, which I think is helpful, ⁓ but just to a world of

people who were actually experiencing very, very similar ⁓ things as I I am.

Kevin Bellack (03:29)

We feel stuck with like I'm the only one that's doing this because everybody around me doesn't fit that XYZ like mold that I have in my head, and therefore, you know, I I'm doing it, but I'm I'm covering it up, I'm hiding it and

you know, I I don't know what where to turn. And you talked about like having a different vocabulary, and I think that's important because, you know, it's ⁓ that I think we get tripped up by that. Cause we have the social we have the social norms with vocabulary around alcoholic and do you have a problem or don't you, or you're a functioning alcoholic? What does that mean? Like ⁓ and so when we don't feel we're, you know, okay, yes, I'm functioning.

But so is everyone around me and they're not doing what I'm doing. At least that's what we think.

Eric Fischer (04:16)

Well, yeah, that's, that's the thing. I mean, they, they, they're just hiding it better, you know, like, like, like, that's what I mean. They're hiding. Well, okay. Okay. Correct. Yeah. I'll take a step back. It's easy to say that being able to look back, but when you're in it, everybody's hiding, right? We have public, private and secret lives. And so when, when you, when you were feeling alone, ⁓ now having a couple of years, ⁓ to be able to look back, what were your patterns like? Were you in the evening?

Kevin Bellack (04:17)

Yeah.

Well, they're hiding it like we are.

Eric Fischer (04:42)

with it or because you were still maintaining a career, right? And then you're a parent and what were your patterns like?

Nadine (04:46)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so

so my patterns were really ⁓ I never ⁓ you know, I I think a lot of people who have have have struggled with alcohol, like I think we all had like our rules, right? That like I will never do this, and if I did that would be the problem. So like, you know, I I was very lucky and I say all of this from like a super privileged standpoint that I also understand I have in that ⁓ I'm not like judging people who

whose lives were different than mine and like my simple rules for what I thought would be a problem. Like I I know tons of people that broke those rules in their own lives and that's totally cool with me. but like I I never drank at work. ⁓ I refused from the time I was like really young to ever have any amount of alcohol and drive just because I don't know that was embedded in me somewhere deep in in. So my pattern was really like getting home from work.

Having a drink immediately, kind of keeping it under control until kids were in bed. And then it was just downhill solo drinking, and in in the thick of my addiction, like to like blackout every single night. ⁓ getting out of bed. I've talked about this a lot in meetings before, that waking up every single morning in like,

I hate myself. I hate my life. Why am I doing that to myself? I'm never, never drinking again. ⁓ you know, and then evidently every day I'd go to work, ⁓ come home, and that like thought, right, that would just like itch in your brain of just tonight. Like I'll stop tonight, right? And then just kind of on autopilot to the liquor store every night, stopping, grabbing my drinks.

and coming home and and repeating that pattern. And it just became such a repeatable pattern. ⁓ the other like real situational thing that I started to see was that it became an obsessive thought for me. Like I thought about it all the time. ⁓ and this is one thing, two and a half years in now, there that I'm like I constantly think about how awesome it is to not be thinking about alcohol.

And not not like constantly in the way that like I was always thinking about alcohol before, but I'm just aware of that when I'm at the park with kids, out on a bike ride, taking them to sports. I'm not waiting for moments to end all the time. Like I feel like I used to always just be like waiting for something to end so that I could go home and drink. ⁓ and to not have those thoughts anymore, what is kind of amazing. So yeah, I was one of those people ⁓ out with friends.

I would drink, but would, you know, control it ish. I don't know, some of my friends would probably be like, no, she didn't control it. ⁓ but but yeah, definitely like a the solo drinker was was my MO for sure.

Eric Fischer (07:40)

Yeah, I resonate with that big time. ⁓ I mean, I was drinking socially too, but then it gets to a point where you almost don't want to drink. At least for me, I didn't really want to drink in public, you know, because I would drink so much. ⁓ But that's that cognitive load. And I think that did you, did you try to with waiting for things to end and not being present in the moment, did you try to cut back first before you finally gave it up?

Kevin Bellack (07:44)

Yeah.

Nadine (08:06)

Think I like dreamt of a world in which I could cut back. Like I never actively like I never did cut back on reframe. So like the day I joined Reframe is my sober date. Like those are are one and the same for me, which I think is like not the norm. but like my first day on reframe, my first meetings, my first day doing the tasks was my day one. ⁓ so cutback was

Eric Fischer (08:18)

wow.

Nadine (08:31)

I think there was a world in which I thought that was a possibility. I'm not a moderation person though. Like I'm all in all the time, or I'm not. Like I I don't I don't do anything well if I'm trying to moderate. and my biggest issue is that as soon as I fail, like quote unquote, at doing something, then I'm like, well, eff it. I that didn't work. I'm not gonna do it. So I think there was part of me that

like tried to moderate. I bought less alcohol. I bought the smaller bottles. I, you know, I did all of that. thinking there was some world in which I was able to just control my drinking. ⁓ but ultimately, and like what I still say is that I'm never gonna try drinking again until like when I say to myself, like, why do I want to drink? The answer is always and has been is like to be loaded. Like I I don't want to have one drink. What's the point of that?

⁓ and so until until I could confidently say like why do I want to have a drink, the if the answer is not like to be totally loaded, then I can't drink. ⁓ I don't see that answer changing anytime soon.

Kevin Bellack (09:39)

Yeah, 'cause what's the point, right? What's the point of one? Like I and I get people's ⁓ I feel people a lot of people are like, well, I just want to have one or two when I go out to eat or something like that. It can be you know, I hear a lot in meetings or one on one as a future goal. Like, well, I'll take a break or I want to cut back to be able to do that. And yeah, it's like where ⁓ I mean, I like how you're like, I don't I do I don't do anything while moderating it.

Eric Fischer (09:39)

Yeah, that's.

Nadine (09:41)

seriously.

Kevin Bellack (10:08)

I mean, I'm sure you could I don't know. I feel like I could point to things well that I do when I don't moderate it, but maybe I don't, maybe because I can go all in on good things too. ⁓ however, maybe that just leads to burnout as well. So maybe that's not always the best, but I totally resonate with that. I don't do anything well moderating it. So I think being honest with yourself there and asking that question, like, well, where do I

Nadine (10:19)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Bellack (10:34)

Where am I able to do this in my life? Not that if I can mu you know, control one thing, that means that I can control this. This is a drug, it's an addictive substance and all that. So there are those kind of things that go into it.

curious what led up to joining reframe, because you know, you don't hear most people join and that's not their ⁓ AF date or anything like that. But

there's obviously work that you've done well before joining reframe that is counted.

Nadine (11:02)

Yeah, so I think like realistically, I had I I swear it was like my I always kind of joke that the amount of time that I had a drinking problem was like shorter than the amount of time I spent trying to solve my drinking problem before I I found a solution. Like I think it was, you know, probably had a drinking problem for about a year and a half before I identified that I did. ⁓ and so through that time I had ⁓

you know, white knuckled it. I had tried different therapists. ⁓ I'd reached out to like the local addiction services counseling. I'd I'd done a lot. ⁓ I talked to my doctor about it. So he was aware of it. We ⁓ and I always was able to get like if I really pushed at it, I could probably get like six weeks. Like I'd I'd get six weeks and then be like, look, I cured myself. ⁓ right. And then just dug that hole deeper because no real work was being done.

I kind of like fundamentally believed that there was, and I still kind of believe this, like this like one flaw that if I could fix it, like I would be a perfect person. and so I kind of had this belief that if I could just figure out what that one issue was, I'd be able to get my drinking under control and then life would be great. and I think there was just like a lot of constant thought around.

Alcohol. I mean, I just I thought about it all the time. And so ultimately what ended up happening was ⁓ for a variety of reasons and and alcohol was a was a piece of it, but there was kind of a a number of reasons I ended up my doctor suggested I take six weeks off work in the winter of what year was that, 2023 going into 2024.

and so I took six weeks off work and I remember saying to my sister, like, I have to change my life in these six weeks. And she's Nobody can change their life in the in six weeks. And I was Yeah, that's that's fair. but ultimately during that time, I ⁓ it was just time. Like, I think there was like such a contemplation phase of knowing there's a problem and wanting to fix the problem. Like that went on for so long.

And for whatever reason it then just cooked for me. And so I was really lucky in that I was off work. and I think I'd gone to the doctors on my on my day one. I the night before was ridiculously blacked out. I think my day one was probably the worst hangover I'd ever had. I remember being at my doctor's office and just like in my head being like, Don't, don't puke, don't puke, don't puke, because I was just I felt terrible.

⁓ and then I came home and got on a meeting. And I think also in my inability to not moderate was probably helpful in that I leaned so hard into reframe. ⁓ I wasn't working, I just like went to meetings all day, every day. ⁓ it was almost like a it was almost like an addiction in being on those meetings. ⁓ and just like

When I first started not realizing, like I I really felt this need to continue to stay sober just so that I could go to the meetings and just so I could be participating in the community. And so I think for whatever weird reason that happened, I was really lucky to not know about cutback and moderation and that vibe and just go like full in. And so I think also.

In my contemplation phase, I had definitely like two years prior downloaded the reframe app at some point in time. and I had then like tried different apps and tried different groups. And at one point in time in that fall, I was ⁓ on a sober girls group or something, and someone else had said, Has anyone tried reframe? I really like their meetings. and it was like, you know, one of those.

No one finds reframe, reframe finds them type of situations. And yeah, so then I think I had gotten an ad for like it was the new year and it was like, Hey, do you wanna try being alcohol free? And I was like, I guess I do. And downloaded the app again.

Kevin Bellack (15:05)

Yeah.

Yeah yeah

yeah, damn it. Okay, fine. Damn algorithm.

Nadine (15:20)

Right? Yeah. Like, okay.

Yes. Yeah. And then really leaned heavily into like, I think I was just doing dry jan. And it wasn't even all j dry jan because I didn't start till January 9th. But I was like, I'll just get through January. Like I still had that mentality when I started that like I just need a quick fix. I never thought I would quit drinking for any substantial amount of time. ⁓ but then it just kept rolling.

Eric Fischer (15:31)

Thank

Kevin Bellack (15:38)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (15:46)

I think it's important to recognize you said that really well in terms that, um, what you tried first did not necessarily work, right? You tried different things and throughout different time periods and, alcohol, you know, is progressive. enters our life. We understand it to be a problem at some point in time, and then it's progressive on the other side too. So, you know, we might try different groups or AA or

therapy and coaching and and and whatnot and then and then all of a sudden it starts to kind of take a grip and the brain has he has some time to really truly change and and become less it's like a magnetic pull to the alcohol really with the dopamine how much dopamine that alcohol gives it's like they're magnets to one another and then you give it give it some time and it can break free but but it's

you know, it's a little bit of patience mixed with curiosity and steadfastness to overcome this thing. And it takes a while. ⁓ But it seems like, go ahead.

Nadine (16:46)

Well, just gonna say, like the the one other piece that's like interesting, because I think there's like so many steps that are laid along the way to like getting to wherever you are, good or bad. ⁓ but in my early twenties, early to mid-20s, I suffered from extreme anxiety. And through ⁓ that anxiety, I had at some point in time been involved in like a group therapy.

and I loved it. Like I absolutely loved it. And I realize it's not for everybody. but I loved it. And there was something that I felt very deep, like I needed a group to get me to quit drinking. Like I understood the desire of like going to an AA meeting or going to a smart recovery meeting. Like I understood that desire. And I knew

I felt I don't know if I knew, but I felt pretty confident that like a group situation would help me, like that idea would really help me. And I I will couldn't I couldn't get myself to show up to an AA meeting. Like there was it just felt far too intimidating for me. ⁓ and so I think, yeah, like ultimately that contemplation phase and all those things that just kind of lined up. ⁓

To a point where it's like you really do have to want it, right? Like you really do. It's a lot of work. You have to really want to actually be sober.

Eric Fischer (18:05)

That's something really important to knock on, I think, is that ⁓ you do, have to want it, you have to get to a point where you can look yourself in the mirror and kind of say, you know, like a gut check with yourself because otherwise it's, we're riding these waves. ⁓ But there is a, I mean, you know, this is more along the lines of AA, which some people love and some people don't.

⁓ But there is a surrender to it. There really is. I mean, it might be to a higher power. Some people call that God. I've been around a lot of folks who it's nature, maybe an eagle or something greater than ourselves. ⁓ I find to be, and the data shows that too, but there is a voluntary willingness to ⁓ show up for ourselves. And that's oftentimes also, you know, why these interventions, statistically interventions don't work.

because it's not voluntary and you surprise this individual who's in the depths of this addiction ⁓ and there's immediate friction and pushback. And so I think the fact that you actually wanted to overcome this thing is, cannot be understated, you know, or what would it be? Would it be overstated or understated? It'd be overstated? Cannot be overstated enough.

Kevin Bellack (19:14)

Yeah.

cannot be overstated, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I and I I would say too,

like that surrender, like it it's it doesn't have to be to any one thing. It doesn't have to be like I I'm I'm fail it doesn't have to be failure. It's not it's not failure, right? It's it's surrendering and, you know, you might say surrender to a higher power. Like I didn't surrender to a higher power or or say I'm powerless against this or anything. I you know, I was

Eric Fischer (19:29)

Mm-mm.

Kevin Bellack (19:46)

Failing at the time is what the words I would have used to stop or to cut down. But I would say I surrendered myself to just asking for help. Like I was just like, fine, I'll ask someone for help. Like being open to it, right? Versus, no, I'm gonna do this myself or I can do this myself. And I feel like that was my kind of surrender to opening up to that possibility of saying, hey, raising my hand, being like, I need some help here.

Nadine (20:12)

I think ⁓ yeah, for me the surrender piece was like surrendering to myself in a weird way of like just accepting like one Kevin, what you were saying about like asking for help, but then also surrendering to the fact that like I'm doing this just for me. Like I think so often people come in and I think at the why, you know, what's your why and all of that, and people often like focus on

They're kids, their family, blah, blah, blah. And I was too. Like I certainly was. But what was a big game changer for me was I remember in a meeting, somebody someone had just talked about another reframer had talked about how like their why was just themselves. And that was like a light bulb moment for me of like, ⁓ like the only reason I'm doing this is just for me.

And that's what like my why is. That's what my why says in reframe. It hasn't changed in over two years. Like, I am being sober for me. It's not for my kids. It's not for my husband. It's not for my work. It's not for anything. ⁓ and that was kind of an eye-opening piece of like giving myself the permission to be selfish in a weird way and like only care about myself ⁓ in a world where

I think particularly, you know, women are kind of groomed to care for other people and be the caregivers and and do things for some external reason. But to flip it around and just be like, no, F you all, like this is literally just for myself. And and and like obviously, like it's made positive impacts on everyone else in my life. but at the end of the day, I'm I'm not doing it for any of them.

Kevin Bellack (21:52)

Tier.

Nadine (22:01)

Right. And so for me, that was a big piece of the surrender was like, I you just gotta do this for you. No one else is also gonna save me. Right. Like no one's coming to save me. No one else is gonna stop me. I don't wanna hear if someone thinks I have a problem. Like, don't tell me. I don't need to know that. ⁓ I already know that. ⁓ and so yeah, that was my big surrender piece.

Kevin Bellack (22:23)

Yeah. How d how dare you not do it for others and the people around you? ⁓ but right, you you you hit the nail on the head as far as like by doing it for ourselves, it it has that ripple effect out to everyone around us. So you're you're also doing it for them, but as a byproduct, ⁓ versus starting there because then what happens when I do it for this one person or

Nadine (22:25)

Right.

Kevin Bellack (22:48)

⁓ something else and then that goes away or they piss me off or whatever, then it's like, well screw you. You know, and I can I can drink at them, you know, at that point. And not to say that, you know, with yes, I do it for my daughter and my wife, my you know, family and stuff like that. So but yeah, I mean that's it started with like I I have to get this under control for me because I I don't know where this is going otherwise.

Nadine (22:56)

Yes.

Kevin Bellack (23:14)

I don't like where this is going otherwise.

Nadine (23:16)

I think like ultimately, so you know what's really fascinating about the one flaw thing is that ⁓ there's this theory of children who have children with like emotional neglect or something, I think is it's the book is called Running on Empty. I can't remember the author of it. ⁓ but she just like talks about people who grew up really without like

like without solid emotional support, basically, which I mean I think is also like a super relevant hot topic for my generation. you know, the adults of emotionally immature people and all and all of that. ⁓ but her her like one theme she could find across all of her different patients that she kind of diagnosed people with this childhood emotional neglect or whatever her term was.

was that everyone thought they had a fatal flaw. And I think, like, also though, I don't know, I'd argue that I think like most people think they have a fatal flaw. Like that one thing that I think, like, if people knew this about me, they wouldn't like me. ⁓ I don't know that that's like a super abnormal line of thinking. ⁓ and I mean, I think also, you know, two and a half years into this, I feel like I'm surrounded by other sober people at this point in time. And

you know, most of my sober friends I think would also agree with that line of thinking. ⁓ so I don't know if that's I don't know what came first there, the chicken or the egg, right? And ⁓ and I think like you then look at like through like reframing all the people I've met, like the number of us who have like anxiety disorders or like I, you know, in the last two and a half years have been diagnosed with ADHD, all of these things where ⁓

Kevin Bellack (24:45)

Yeah.

Nadine (25:00)

You know, alcohol was really a my coping strategy for a lot of things. and not to say that, you know, if I'd been diagnosed with ADHD as a kid, it would have made any difference. I don't think it would have. ⁓ but yeah, I don't know. No, I d I still like somewhere deep inside of me believe there's a fatal flaw. But I'm getting over it. I'm getting over it.

Kevin Bellack (25:22)

Good. Yeah, I mean I feel yeah, I don't know. There's not one of anything. I I feel like I feel ⁓ but by saying that, does that mean there's multiple fla fatal flaws, Kevin? ⁓ no, I wouldn't say that. But I mean we're flawed, right? We're human. Period. Everyone is, so.

Eric Fischer (25:22)

Thank

Nadine (25:35)

Yeah. Yes. And I think accepting

that is also a key point, right? In that like I'm not everyone's cup of tea, everyone's not my cup of tea. ⁓ and that's cool, right? That it doesn't mean it's not a good or bad thing. It's just a thing.

Eric Fischer (25:51)

That reminds me for some reason about, I heard this woman ⁓ say she spent her entire life metaphorically with the mindset of shaking hands. So you can imagine like a line of folks and you're just going down the line shaking hands. And the mindset was, I like, I want to be liked, I want to be liked, I want to be liked, I want to be liked. And then she overcame alcohol and worked on herself. And now her mindset is, are we a match? Are we a match?

Are we a match? Are we a match? And that comes to that balance and the ability to be introspective back to your point on identifying where some areas are in our life. We want to call them flaws or what have you. but we can, you know, if we're aware of them, then we can take action on them and improve them. ⁓ But it's I think some of that it goes back to that that fundamental lack of of confidence and security that we.

Nadine (26:19)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (26:45)

that we oftentimes get when we are, or get. ⁓ We become in tune with that when we grow up in a safe environment ⁓ because we learn trust versus mistrust and we learn competence versus incompetent ⁓ as we age up. And that's a forever journey. That's Eric Erickson where the developmental process is.

as we age, always going to be facing developmental challenges. And so would you say that going through your process to overcome alcohol, you become a little bit more introspective and in tune with how you think and the choices you make and just kind of like elevating the intentionality, the intentional living?

Nadine (27:28)

thousand percent and it's it's funny you bring this up because this is one thought I've been having recently about being sober is that like I am just ridiculously content all the time. Like even when it's like I'm having a bad day or like things aren't great. Like I'm not saying life is perfect by any means. It's not perfect. But I am just like content so much more than I am not.

And so I'll just like be walking around and it's just this like overwhelming feeling of like things are great, like things are in place, things make sense, everything just feels good. And I've started like really pondering for people who don't have an alcohol problem or something and they don't overcome anything. I'm like, one, are they just

Are there people out there who are just like always in that frame of mind, anyways? Like they're just this like lucky group of people who didn't have any major struggles and they're happy. Or are like all of these people just like they haven't been given the opportunity to like elevate a little bit? Because I

I totally hear what you're saying, Eric, because I do feel like I have been given like a gift in being able to have a reason to become introspective and to like really push myself and really investigate who I am and all of these things. And I'm like, I don't I don't know that I would have

Had that in any other way, if it wasn't for the fact that I struggled with alcohol. Like I don't know that I would have got there. ⁓ and I think it goes to like that one sober ⁓ book, the we're the luckiest or whatever it is. Like I get that. Like I really get that idea. And I think ⁓ I think if like I think if you if I heard myself three years ago, like three years ago, me heard myself talking and be like, what's going on?

Like she's ridiculous. Like 'cause I it's a weird concept to wrap your mind around. but I do feel like really lucky in the ability to be like given this opportunity to do that. And I've a hundred percent am like more introspective. I think I'm significantly more empathetic towards other people through all of this as well. ⁓

Eric Fischer (29:39)

Hmm.

Nadine (30:08)

I really do think I'm I'm very privileged in that this was my problem, right? Like I think, you know, there's a couple of turns in that my life could have taken at times where it was like it wasn't just like quote unquote just an alcohol problem, right? Like I could have gone down a really dark road. And I think when you see other people struggling really hard with addictions, I think like I'm ridiculously lucky that.

This was the journey that I've been able to take.

Eric Fischer (30:38)

Did you have, ⁓ so you go into Reframe, you sign up, you become active, and then that was your day one. Were there certain things as you were concurrent when you were with, Reframe and still are, but during the early periods, ⁓ did you change anything like your morning or evening routine, or did you change anything to kind of anchor inside of, or was it the, you.

Nadine (30:46)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (31:05)

You mentioned like your kind of addiction was going to these community meetings. that the, was that the big change or in your personal life? Did you anchor inside of journaling or working out maybe a little different going on more walks or, you know, routine, but

Nadine (31:08)

Yeah.

No.

I did I did none of those things that everyone says to do. I did none of them. ⁓ it was like the dead of winter in Canada. I literally sat on my couch and knit and went to meetings all day, every day. And I think because I wasn't working, I I sometimes will be like, could I have done this if I was working? I don't know. I mean, I see people do it all the time. I'm sure I could have. ⁓ but like

I was really lucky to just like go to meetings. And I kid you not, I went to like every meeting all day long. My husband gave me all the space in the world to just be like, she's on meetings. Like, and it was like there was no pressure for anything. And so I literally just sat and knit and went to meetings for for like months and months. And I had at one point in time, like I can remember being like, I need to.

Start eating better and working out and doing all of those things. and then I was on a reframe meeting and someone was like, God, give yourself a year. And I was like, okay. And I I was like, g I gave myself a year a hundred percent, right? And so I always joke like my big change was and it wasn't a change, was like I drank Coke and Coke, 'cause I was a rum and coke drinker. And instead I just drank Coke and Coke and I gave myself permission to drink like

Kevin Bellack (32:21)

Done. Yeah.

Nadine (32:38)

all the coke in the world. And so like in my early days, I was probably drinking like four Cokes a day, which realistically wasn't any more. Like it was the same as what I'd been drinking, but without the alcohol. ⁓ and I just I made I gave myself permission to do like nothing. Nothing. I did nothing. I I don't journal. I never have. I've gone to like three journaling meetings and I'm like I can't get into it. I

Like I went to creatives meetings, couldn't get into it. Like it's just, it's not my jam. I hate going for walks on my own, especially. I've tried to walk listening to meetings. I'm like, I can't do it. But I think for me, ⁓ like the big the big thing was just like going to meetings. And really early on, ⁓ I turned my camera on. And I know that's not I know that's not for everyone's jam. ⁓

And it wasn't until I was probably like a year and a half in and somebody talked about how having your camera on ⁓ lets you be seen without having to participate. And so I I rarely shared at the beginning, ⁓ but I was seen like and and people would comment because I was knitting all the time. Like people would comment about like, what are you knitting? So it was like there was this like weird thing about being seen.

But yeah, no, I didn't do any of that stuff that people say you're supposed to do. But then it just like happened, right? Like because then I like my sober people are also people who go to the gym and now I'm someone who goes to the gym. Like it it it all like fell into place, but like not not for a long time. I

Kevin Bellack (34:12)

But

you gave yourself time versus like, okay, I have six weeks. I'm gonna do this for from January ninth to the thirty first and then I'm done, right? I'll be fixed. And you gave yourself time. and you held yourself accountable, like just by turning your camera on. Don't have to share. I was gonna ask, what what were you what do you typically knit?

Nadine (34:21)

Yes.

Yeah.

So okay, so like this is the long so ⁓ twenty twenty four, dis January ninth. Yeah, I'm I'm the one here next. Yeah. Yeah. And so like January 9th, 2024 ⁓ was my day one. And I the night before I went ⁓ I went to the craft store and then likely went to the liquor store. ⁓

Eric Fischer (34:33)

Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (34:39)

'Cause remember like that's how I know you is like you're on camera knitting. Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (34:43)

And she's netting it.

Nadine (34:57)

But then I went and I bought, I was gonna do a temperature blanket for 2024. So the idea is that you knit a row a day based on the temperature. ⁓ and so that's what I knit for the entire first year was I worked on this temperature blanket, which then I still haven't finished. I've got like two weeks to finish. I'm in mid-December. But it's also my sober blanket now at this point, right? Because 99% of that was knit.

Kevin Bellack (35:21)

Yeah.

Nadine (35:24)

while sitting on reframe meetings. ⁓ I don't know. I think there's part of me that I'm like, I never want to actually finish it. Like it feels like a project that I I shouldn't I mean I should finish it, but also there feels like something symbolic of like the journey never ends, right? I don't know.

Kevin Bellack (35:40)

Yeah. I feel like you should just finish the two weeks, but then just make the longest blanket ever. Like

Eric Fischer (35:42)

Keep going, keep going. So yeah, after 20 years, it's like you can stretch

Nadine (35:45)

Yes.

Eric Fischer (35:48)

it around the block. ⁓

Nadine (35:50)

You know, maybe you'll have like make it like a sober scarf or something. But I know there

was like one reframer who used to always joke about like, Are you knitting me something? And I thought, I should really like just get in the habit of like knitting hats and then like sending them to reframers.

Kevin Bellack (36:02)

Yeah. And there's so I mean there's something something nice about seeing familiar faces when going on meetings too. Even if you don't have your camera on, and that's the thing, like you turn your camera on right away. Like just to tell everybody out there you can join a meeting, you don't have to share, you don't have to have your camera on. It can say iPhone or Zoom user or whatever on your name and you can just listen. And I think that's

Nadine (36:14)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Bellack (36:28)

important to know because a lot of people don't click on the button to join a meeting because and this is always on Zoom, ⁓ because of the fear of ⁓ who's gonna see me? Do I have to share like the unknown, right? So just go on, listen. ⁓ listen to multiple meetings. If you're if you're like, I didn't like that meeting I went on the first one, listen to a couple more. They're all different, right? And you never know what you're gonna get. And but but seeing similar faces who show up all the time, I think

Eric Fischer (36:48)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Bellack (36:56)

is a very helpful thing for everyone. Like I you know, I feel like it kind of creates that community because you see Nadine sitting there. Well, I know you are going to be on this meeting knitting. Like, you know, it there's something comforting about that.

Eric Fischer (37:09)

Mm-hmm.

Nadine (37:09)

Yeah,

a hundred percent. Cause I always refer to those people as like my rocks that like there's so and there's so many of them who like I've never interacted with, right? Like I don't I don't know them. We've never talked, but like in my mind, they were like key rocks in my journey because I could log in and they were there. ⁓ you know, didn't share, did share, whatever the case is. ⁓ but yeah, I think

I think it's also been like fun to get to know people outside of the reframe community and be like, my god, you're lying about your name. Cool. Like that's not your name. Got it. Like, all right, I'm on to you now. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (37:42)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's yeah, I mean, putting putting your face up, whether you say something or not, and then using using did you use your actual name, your first name? Or did you have nail?

Nadine (38:00)

Yeah, yeah. So

for I think my very first meeting I went on, I had a fake name and a fake picture. ⁓ and then I think it wa but I think it was like one day. And then I immediately went to my name. and then on camera. And I still and honestly for me part of it is also like to pay attention and actually be present, I need my my video on. Or else if I don't have my video on, I stop paying attention.

But if I have my video and I actually pay attention, I'm engaged, it's like where the work is actually happening for me. but yeah, no, I just like leaned in hard.

Eric Fischer (38:38)

It's almost like an impatient that you put yourself in patient process because you're, kind of, you, you took some time off work. Your husband was in full support. And it also goes to show that, ⁓ you don't have to be doing the journaling each morning and the, and the, and the very strict kind of morning and evening routines. And then, you know, something during the day and all of this, you could, went all in on the meetings.

Nadine (38:46)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (39:04)

You showed up, you put your camera on, you put your real name there and you listened and then it kind of snowballed from there. ⁓ and, and, and to other things that were intrinsic for you that you actually did want to do and looked forward to doing. And, and, ⁓ yeah, I think there's a lot of power to that because people do, you know, when I was an inpatient rehab, they, said no relationships for one year.

Nadine (39:11)

Hundred percent.

Eric Fischer (39:27)

Try to scale back some work and take things off your plate, remove things. And that's kind of what you did as well. And it allowed you time to ⁓ start the process of growing.

Nadine (39:38)

Yeah, and I think it's one of those things where it's like, I also couldn't ahead of time know what I needed. Like, right? Like I don't think I could have ever sat down and been prescriptive of like, this is what I need to do and this is what's gonna work for me. ⁓ like it was just it all felt very accidental. even though, you know, as I said, there was all these like steps that got me to that point. There was still something about just

being open to trying something different. And I think, you know, that kind of brings me back to being open to trying something different. In like my first two weeks, I can remember one day going and I was sitting outside the liquor store in my car. I'd also gone to the dollar store first. So I had like five chocolate bars. And I just like sat in the parking lot outside the liquor store eating chocolate and crying. ⁓

And this was it was definitely in like the first two weeks because my my start date was a Tuesday. And so I think I'd probably just hit two weeks. And I remember like really having to fight with myself over like just do this differently, like just try something different for today. And I think, you know, I'd I'd heard the saying a million times, like each day's day one, or like just for today, or I won't drink with you today.

But there was something about it like finally clicking of like, okay, I'm just going to not drink today. And I was also giving myself permission that like I can drink on the weekend. If you get through this whole week, you can drink on the weekend. and then I'd get to the weekend, I'd be like, okay, you know what? Let's just try to get through this weekend. Like what if we just saw what would happen if I got through this weekend?

Eric Fischer (41:17)

Hmm.

Nadine (41:22)

And if you don't drink this weekend, like you can drink next weekend. And I just kept like kicking that down the field for months. Like, I mean, I still sometimes will like be like, just get through today and you can drink next year. Like it's a longer timeline for me now. but it was just having to like really fight with myself to try something different. Just, you know, repeating yourself over and over again. It's not working. Do something different.

Kevin Bellack (41:46)

and

Yeah, and not today. Like it do s I and and I like that and I've used that too, where it's like, okay, not today. Just tomorrow we can wake up and we can negoti we can renegotiate this all we want. ⁓ but yeah, pushing it off to tomorrow, the weekend, whatever, and allowing yourself to be open to

Nadine (41:52)

Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (42:14)

that discussion with yourself or bringing other people in is helpful too. ⁓ because, you know, the the saying goes is like you never regret drinking or you never you never regret waking up without a with without a hangover. Right. ⁓ so it's like a mind trick. You and you know that. And so that's where it's tough that like, well, no, I know if I kick the can down the road to tomorrow, I'm just gonna not want to drink when I wake up. But it's like, no, like tell yourself like I can, you know, I can give myself permission to

Nadine (42:27)

Yep, never.

Kevin Bellack (42:42)

⁓ think about this again tomorrow. But right now, let's stick with it. Let's get through this. Let's get through this parking lot. Let's finish this candy bar. And let's you know, can we go? ⁓ and how did that cause I I was curious too, like what else 'cause you said like it was like kind of accidental and the meetings were key, but what did the meetings you know, it's like accidentally stumbling upon

Nadine (42:49)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Bellack (43:09)

good little nuggets because you purposefully went to the meetings, right? It's like, you know, I don't know what I don't know. I don't know what's gonna help, but you hear something in a meeting like, let me let me do that tomorrow or try that tonight. What else helped?

Nadine (43:23)

there's a reframer who had a saying and she was a regular sharer when I first started, which was no amount of alcohol safe for me. I feel like it's like a standard ⁓ reframe saying. But honestly, like hearing someone repeat a simple phrase like that over and over again, like

would get in my brain, right? And I would just like randomly think about it. Like it's just that constant repetition. And I think for me that was why the meetings were so key was it was like the constant repetition of hearing these stories. Then through hearing the stories was realizing like I wasn't actually alone. Like there's hundreds, thousands of people like me holding down a job.

Parenting, doing all of these things, looking good from the outside, and still having a drinking problem. So it was like learning that was really important. ⁓ and then slowly was like my gradual introduction into the community and like actually building my own community.

⁓ also became super key. I mean, I think realistically getting a group of people, we st I started a challenge group and it was like literally me throwing out to a a group, like a big group being like, does anyone want to join my challenge group for April? So this was what January, February, March, three three months in. It was like, does anyone want to join my challenge group? ⁓ and I was so lucky that people did. And ⁓ and you know, like those are the people I still talk to

Eric Fischer (44:54)

Thank

Nadine (44:57)

like daily, right? Like I still interact with those people every day. and just like having that group of people. like I I'm sure there's people who can do it alone or with a small group or like one accountability buddy. Like I'm I'm not saying that that's not possible, but I think again it just comes back to experimenting and trying things differently. Because I don't I don't like needing help. I'm a very independent person. I don't want to ask for help.

I don't want anyone to help me. I still, if I'm struggling, like it's still a real struggle to say to like my group, like, hey guys, I'm struggling. ⁓ but it's like practicing that and being around other people doing it, then you, you know, start to become like them. You start working out and stuff, doing things I didn't want to do. I didn't want to become a workout person, but now I am.

Kevin Bellack (45:43)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (45:48)

That's one of those beautiful surprises that you, that you don't know about unless you give yourself a shot, you know, just show up and see what happens. ⁓ and there's that, let's see with it as well. love how you said that you didn't, ⁓ you know, the brain always wants what it cannot have. And so when we say like, I can only on a Saturday night have three or

Nadine (45:55)

Yeah, for sure.

Eric Fischer (46:09)

Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, and then I'll let myself like planning it out like this. The brain goes, well, why not? Because last week you were on the couch watching Netflix and nothing bad happened. So it's like, but I love both of you guys were saying, like kind of kicking the can down, taking that, taking to that one day at a time and believing it like, okay, this weekend, if I really, you if I get through this week, this weekend, if I have one, I have a couple, I'll let myself have a couple. And then you get to that Saturday morning or that Friday night and you go, you know what?

I don't know. I just don't feel like it right now. And it's not to say the days are going to be hard. You're not going to have to white knuckle it through that weekend, especially early on and maybe even later on as well. But I love how you said, well, I just didn't really box myself in and put up these kind of jail-like ⁓ preconditions for yourself. And it seemed to work.

And that curiosity measure as well, because I, you know, we don't, we don't get to decide what it is we're curious about. It's kind of like a little, it's like a little thing inside of, inside of us when we're sitting in the, in the community meetings and all of a sudden our ears and our, go like, what did they, what did they just say right there? I'm going to steal that little nugget. Like no alcohol, no, what was it? No amount of alcohol is good for me.

Kevin Bellack (47:21)

Yeah.

Nadine (47:25)

No amount of alcohol

Kevin Bellack (47:25)

Safe.

Nadine (47:26)

is safe for me.

Eric Fischer (47:27)

Yeah, that was a little curious to you for you. That little sentence was like, what was that? And then it became something for you that you could kind of anchor on. And that's that inner dialogue, this positive, ⁓ that helps us all those little pieces help us because on the other side of alcohol, it's progressive. ⁓ so now you're working out, ⁓ what else is, what else is, what else has changed for the good in your life?

Nadine (47:45)

Yeah. Begrudgingly.

my god, what

what hasn't like honestly what hasn't changed is kind of like it you know, I think like I'd be so curious. I kind of sometimes wish I could observe myself from the outside because I don't know, like I don't know what's changed. Like I would be very curious of like I still have ⁓ the same friend group that I had pre-drinking, and they're drinkers, like they

party hard and I I still hang out with them. Like, you know, I'll hear of people whose friend groups have changed and things like that. And and that hasn't changed for me. and like that's like that's tricky. There there's definitely my own internal navigating that I have to do on that. but like I I'm always like I don't know if I feel like I've done I'm a totally different person. Like I feel like

At my core, I'm a different person. I feel I present as a different person, but I don't know if necessarily people who have known me my entire life would would think that about me. ⁓ but I think like ultimately, like, yeah, a lot is still the same, right? Like I still have ADHD. I still don't know where my keys are. I still don't know, like my house is always a mess. I hate doing laundry, like I don't like eating breakfast, like.

None of those things have have changed. but I present with all of those things totally differently now, right? Like it's not the end of the world that I hate doing laundry and I don't feel shame that I don't like to eat breakfast. And I don't like a lot of those good and bad definitions that I had assigned to things before.

when I was in active addiction are kind of gone. And like I understand that not drinking was like the catalyst for this. I mean, I've also done an intense amount of therapy over the last two and a half years. ⁓ that has like helped with all of that. But I think like ultimately for me, my mindset is just completely different. ⁓ like I I it blows my mind how different I think about things now. ⁓

Taking the shame and blame out of things has been such a game changer. and I think, you know, realistically, I remember talking with a friend who's not one of my sober friends, a different friend, who was telling me about how she ⁓ her her mom was a dry drunk. So her mom had got sober before she had kids, but never did any of the work. And it was like this, like,

dawning moment for me of like, my God, I can't imagine not drinking and not doing any work. So I'm just living in that hell and doing living in that hell while sober. ⁓ and it was like when it really dawned on me, again, a common saying, but sometimes these things hit cognitively different, like alcohol was never my problem. It was my solution. and realizing that and then

being able to apply different frameworks and different mental clarity towards, you know, my quote unquote problems ⁓ has been an absolute game changer. And there's no possible way I could have done that if I was drinking. Like there's just there's no way I could be drinking any amount of alcohol and been able to get to this level of clarity.

Kevin Bellack (51:21)

Yeah. And I feel like a lot of people and and we want to know like, yeah, but what did you do? Like what what are those things that you did to fix the the and I and I'm saying that because i that's the thing. It's like we want that we want to listen to a podcast and hear like this person did this and then they that fixed them. ⁓ and yeah, you did you went to meetings daily.

Nadine (51:34)

Okay.

Yes.

Kevin Bellack (51:45)

A lot

of them knitted and listened and you did things because of that, but that was you know, you did what made sense to you at time over time.

Nadine (51:56)

Yeah, because I think like, yeah, I love a quick fix. Like, please. Like I still, I still search for things. I can remember when I was off on Mat Leave with my kids. I would just like wander the aisles of Target. And I realized after like months of doing that, that I was like, ⁓ I'm looking for the solution to make this easy. Right. Like I'm always for the quick fix.

Kevin Bellack (51:59)

Yeah, same.

Nadine (52:19)

And I can still remember in my first weeks of joining Reframe and I'd see people come on and and in the comment section be like, I'm like 500 days sober or I'm like 200 days sober. And I was like, what the fuck? Sorry, I don't know if I'm allowed to swear on this, but I ⁓ like I don't want to be 500 days sober and still going to meetings. Like I remember thinking that was like the worst possible situation. But what I didn't realize was that

When you're 500 days sober and still going to meetings, or like I'm 880-something days sober and I still go to meetings, not at the rate I did back then, but it's you're not struggling. Like the the struggle bus that you're on in like the first, like especially four days, but like the first month, the first three months, the first six months really, that you're not on that struggle bus anymore in going to meetings. ⁓ and you're

you're just in an entirely different frame of mind. And it's like now I'll go to meetings because it's like I'm like, ⁓ I'm gonna like sometimes for sure I'm still like, I need to go to a meeting. Like I need to get to a meeting. I need to just like ground myself. but sometimes it'll be like ⁓ I'm free today. I'm gonna hit up a meeting and just like see what my friends are doing. Right. Like ⁓ so yeah there's there is no quick fix. And I think that's the like shittiest thing about this is there is no quick fix.

Kevin Bellack (53:25)

Yeah.

Nadine (53:40)

but like ultimately when I think of now like almost two and a half years out, the the work that I did and the hard work that I did has like paid for itself in spades. Right. Like I I would I would do it again in a second. ⁓ even though at the time it was like it felt impossible. yeah.

Kevin Bellack (54:02)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (54:04)

Yeah,

so maybe it's something like you took action not knowing what the outcome was going to be and you persisted and therefore you won over time.

Nadine (54:10)

Yes.

Yeah. A hundred percent. Like I think like I I had I had no idea. I had no idea what I was getting into. ⁓ the only thing I was certain of was that like what was what I was doing was not working. ⁓ and I just you just I just had to try something different.

Kevin Bellack (54:14)

Yeah.

Yeah. And that and that feeling too of like, ⁓ shit, am I gonna have to do this when I'm five hundred days? Or or or or the other th the other thing is it's like, I'm never gonna get the five hundred days or you know, so there's different ways of looking at stuff like that. But you know, what I say a lot and what I had to reframe ⁓ was it wasn't about the alcohol. Like I I didn't, you know, I I didn't do the things I was doing.

Nadine (54:43)

Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (54:56)

To not drink. I did the things I I was doing to, you know, those tools and the things I was using to help. I was doing those because it just helped me overall. It helped me, yes, it helped me to kind of get past the craving or not drink or do other things, but it helped me grow and it helped me over here at work. It helped me over here with, you know, dealing with other people, my family, whatever. Like it's not specific to alcohol because alcohol is used as the band-aid to fix.

the things that, you know, we drink at. And that's what the that's what a lot of the tools that we talk about are doing. It's not about like, I'm gonna drink if I don't go to a meeting. It's like I want to go to a meeting because I'm getting something out of it. I'm connecting with somebody. I want to listen to the topic. I want to hear, you know, what this person has to say or I wanna just see my friends or whatever. You're getting something else out of it. ⁓ but it's always good to stay connected to the things that work. I know this came up in a meeting

Nadine (55:37)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Bellack (55:51)

And it it comes a like working out is a good like comparison, the metaphor of well, okay, if I go and work out and I get in shape and I get to where I want to be, do I have do I get to stop then? Like, no, I don't get any benefit from doing that yesterday. ⁓ I have to keep going, which you could say it sucks. Like, damn it, but ⁓ but but that's this it's the same thing. Like, you know, I I don't get to just okay, I got to where I want to be. I'm gonna stop now and I don't have to do anything else that I've been doing.

And I'm fixed. Right? It's like no, if you wanna keep if you wanna keep what you're doing going, you have to keep doing it in some capacity. ⁓ bit of a ramble, but

Nadine (56:27)

Well, yeah, and I think

well, I think like even like the tools, for example. ⁓ my favorite one when I was first ⁓ like in my early days was HALT, like hungry, angry, lonely, tired. ⁓ like I still use that almost daily because like honestly, every single day at some point in time, I'm hungry, angry, lonely, and tired. Like all four of the things will be happening. ⁓ and like

that that doesn't change right like none of that stuff changes because you quit drinking like there's still times I have ADHD I forget to eat all the time and then I'm very hungry and grumpy ⁓ and I have to like eat ⁓ and something as simple as that like tool continues to work for like

all the stuff that still exist, right? And I and I catch myself, right? I think there's like scrolling, there's, you know, numbing out, right? Like there's different ways to numb out. You'll we'll find those. but it's just like having those tools to actually like, you know, change that behavior a lot quicker. ⁓ I the the one thing I was also going to say about the like

early days and seeing like someone on the meeting with like 200 days and being like, what the heck are they still doing here? Also, like when you get to 200 days, like you still don't know what the hell's going on. Right. Like I was like 200 days is so early into the journey, even though it's a huge number. I mean, I sometimes think at like two and a half years, I'm like, ⁓ I'm great, right? Like I'm fixed. I'm fine. This like I could just go on. And I think for some people that's maybe true.

Eric Fischer (57:50)

⁓ Well, that's important to recognize,

Kevin Bellack (57:50)

Yeah, yeah.

Nadine (58:09)

I don't think that's actually true for me though, right? Like this is

Kevin Bellack (58:12)

think it's true for anybody because what you know, life happens, right? So

when life happens and it's like, okay, well, yeah, I was good before, but now this new thing happened or this thing happened in my life and it's making me struggle. And I might think back to how I would in the past maybe use alcohol to quote unquote fix this. ⁓ and so yeah, that stuff will still happen.

Nadine (58:35)

Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (58:37)

Yeah, it's just so we don't get we don't I don't know, it doesn't we don't get quote unquote fixed and then that's it. We never have another craving or we never have another issue or we don't use, you know, I'm seven plus years alcohol free and I'm like, I still, you know, don't you I still have a lot of ⁓ coping mechanisms. You just mentioned scrolling, like there's a lot of coping mechanisms that I have that

aren't the best. It's not like I'm doing I'm sitting here journaling out all my thoughts and talking to a therapist all the time and going to meetings and doing all this. Like that's it, you know, but I catch myself, like you said, ⁓ you know, it's you get more in tune with what is showing up, how, and if do you do I want this to show up this way? No. Okay. How do I change it? And given your space giving yourself that space to work on it, I think by working on alcohol and and getting that under control first that

also gives you the confidence to work on other things.

Eric Fischer (59:31)

What's autonomy too, right? Because you said you were finally doing this for yourself. then as a bite, Kevin, you said as a by-product, the people in your life that deserve your love and your intellect, they reap those rewards. But ⁓ the autonomy of it is that you get to choose, you know? Like once we really understand like, hey, this little thing over here, this novelty scrolling, the drinking, the...

spending on Amazon. mean, there's a lot of novelty. And then you get in tune with a hungry, angry, lonely, tired and a number of other things as well. It's like you get to choose where we do. A lot of these folks say these thinkers say that every human being over the course of time is moving towards autonomy. ⁓ Was there a moment that that kind of

where you thought to yourself, it palpable for you when you were like, you know what, I do, I get to choose. I can choose when the road's splitting, I get to really kind of like pull all this power back and choose for myself where I'm going. Was there like a real moment for you where you looked in the mirror maybe and said like, ⁓ my gosh, like this is really working. I'm choosing the good things now.

Nadine (1:00:39)

Say, like, for me, that really started to hit like well past a year. Like, honestly, like I think getting to a year feels great, it's awesome. ⁓ and I remember like in my first 12 months, you know, you'd hear people say, like, and you hit a year, and that's when the real work starts. ⁓ like that's that's true. ⁓ so I would say it was like probably like a solid year and a half in where

I'd experienced, you know, every holiday once. I didn't I I was getting to redo things that it was like, okay, I I got past this hurdle a year ago, sober. and here I'm doing it again. And I'm I'm learning a new lesson, or it's difficult in a new way, and I'm overcoming that. ⁓ and I think like

That was also really when I became very solid in that mindset of a year and a half in, if I was to drink today, what would be my purpose for drinking? It would be to blackout. It that would still be my purpose. And when I when I was able to be like that far along and understand.

The draw of alcohol, like to really accept, like that I love alcohol. Like I love it so much, right? Like I I that that still exists. ⁓ I I think gave me the clarity of, and that might be true. Like that's true, and that's never gonna go away. And I'm going to choose to do this differently. Like I'm I'm not going to allow myself.

To have that be my truth. I'm gonna stay on this path. ⁓ because I think, you know, I it's easy, as I said, to like at two and a half years to think like, I've I've got this figured out. Like I think that's an easy falsehood to come into. ⁓ and like I love being on meetings and hearing someone who is like, yeah, I was 20 years sober and then I slipped and now I'm back at like two months.

Not because I'm glad they had that experience, but that I can learn from it, right? Like that I can hear that I cannot be lulled by this falsehood. ⁓

Kevin Bellack (1:02:52)

Yeah.

Nadine (1:02:58)

Yeah, I went off on a tangent. I had more to say, but now I've forgotten what it was. But yeah, I think like it's it's really just like that was when it was clear that I'm choosing to do this. ⁓ and that like I understand the benefits of it now. Like again, I cannot like sometimes I feel like such a sappy weirdo that I would really hate if it was anyone else about how great it is. It's just so great. It's so ridiculous how great it is.

Kevin Bellack (1:03:25)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:03:25)

Yeah, you do. You do. Do you feel like that too, Kev? I mean, that's palpable for me. I mean, I'm like, you know, six, whatever. And it's definitely, I'm with you, Nicole, on that. Yeah, you hear that all the time,

Kevin Bellack (1:03:29)

⁓

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean I I mean my entire life is different as a result of this and you know I I have said in the past and I

I've said which unpopular opinion, alcohol was the best thing that ever happened to me. ⁓ because of what it made me have to do, I'll say. Like right, because of the choices I had to make, because of the changes I had to make. Would I have loved not to, you have those issues and all that? Sure. But I feel like if it wasn't that it would have been something else. So it's like, ⁓ you know, again, my personality, my, you know, knowing yourself and how ⁓

how anything shows up for you or everything. ⁓ yeah, so but I do try and I try and maybe tone it down depending on who I'm talking to because I don't I don't want to turn people off in a way that like if if I do think like they're think they're considering this, I don't want to yeah, be like have you have you heard ⁓ have you heard a meeting like have you gone to a meeting ⁓ of ours lately? I like I don't want to like what sort of a

For here, evangelize or anything like that. Or, you know, I'm I'm I'm always it's all it's whatever you want, right? If you want to keep drinking, keep drinking. If you're looking for help, I got s I got some ideas for you. Like, you know, that's like how it is because you know, you can't make anybody change. I know I you couldn't make me change. Something ⁓ Nina, I think you said made me think at one point, I can't remember exactly I it I totally lost like what it was. It was a while ago, but

Nadine (1:04:40)

Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (1:05:03)

in this conversation where I was like, yeah, if people would have told me that, I would have just wanted to drink more as a result. Like it wouldn't have helped me change. I would have and and and it wasn't like something was that yeah, yeah. I think yeah, I think that was ⁓ around there. And yeah, because you have to get to it yourself. And and so anyway I can make that more ⁓ palatable.

Eric Fischer (1:05:10)

Mmm. yeah.

The intervention. The intervention.

Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (1:05:30)

I'll try to, but everybody's different too. Everybody like, you know, sees somebody shouting from the rooftops and is excited about it and they want that, right? ⁓ other people might be turned off by it. So anyway, ⁓ speaking of tangents and there's there's mine. I'm gonna show

Eric Fischer (1:05:40)

Yeah, but you know, I

was, I was like that. had people in my life say like, Eric, come on, you know, like cut this out. And then it got worse and worse and worse. And each time somebody said something to me like that, was like that ADHD brain of mine is kind of crazy. And was I drink more drink at them. Like you say, Kevin, you know, it's like in spite of them and ⁓

Kevin Bellack (1:05:51)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:06:04)

But once you, ⁓ you know, once you understand and you do the work and you, and you, and, and you, and something breaks, that's the thing, you know, like something breaks and you're forced to look at the things that you don't want to look at and whatever that is, ⁓ big T trauma, small T traumas. could be your boss. could be something from childhood. It could be a car accident. mean, I mean, there's a, you know, it's anything and everything that breaks somebody. ⁓

⁓ you, you do come to realize it's better on the other side, but, then again, you, there are people out there too, that, that are, ⁓ you know, imposing that on other people in that, and that's not necessarily the way to do it either. But, ⁓ yeah, I mean, the person has to be ready. That's that voluntary willingness to, to start taking action because you don't know the beauty of it is you don't know Nicole. That's what I love about, I think it's so refreshing for those listening and watching to, to, to,

to understand that so long as you keep showing up, you know, and you give it the best efforts and understand that there's going to be great days and there's going to be kind of the, what would you call it? Like the slip ups. You don't need to go nuclear inside of ⁓ like pack your days with to the brim with the journaling and the walking and the

and the hands and the eyes to, you you don't need necessarily all of that because you simply showed up, turned the camera on and listened, and then things started to unfold for you quite naturally and intrinsically. ⁓ And that's it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (1:07:38)

Literally with your blanket.

Nadine (1:07:40)

Yes, yeah. Well

yeah, and I think like ultimately, like if I had put those expectations on myself, like I'm gonna journal every day, I'm gonna do like work out, I'm gonna do all of that. As soon as I missed it, that that I would have been done, right? And so instead it was just I'm just not gonna drink today. Like that's it. That's all that's all that mattered. ⁓ and then, you know, you you can't

Kevin Bellack (1:07:59)

Just don't drink.

Nadine (1:08:05)

You would get bored if that was all you like, if you were like, I'm just not gonna drink today. Like eventually you're gonna get bored. Eventually you're like, I need to do other things in my life, right?

Kevin Bellack (1:08:13)

Yeah. I know for me

it showed up like I kind of got to points in time where I was like, okay, I I just finished up studying for this thing, but like my only focus was just don't drink. Or in the beginning it was like, you know, if I was working on moderation too, it was like, okay, just focus on that. Don't worry about anything else. Just focus on that. ⁓ but I got to points in time where I was like, All right, I f I just finished this up. I have some space now. And I'm like, maybe I'll maybe I'll try and

work on my nutrition a little bit better more. And maybe a month or two later, after doing that a little bit, like, I was like, you know what, I'm feeling a little bit more space now. I'm like, maybe I'll start moving my body a little bit more. You know, and it was just but the backstop was always alcohol. It was like if I didn't work out that day, if I ate a family sized bag of Sour Patch Kids, fine. Just don't drink. ⁓ I don't recommend that. I you know, eating a family sized bag of Sour Patch Kids, I don't know if I ever

actually did that. but ⁓ that would be a couple day thing. But anyway, the ⁓

Eric Fischer (1:09:13)

Well,

on the ADHD side, do you know how many were in the bag?

Kevin Bellack (1:09:17)

No, I was too busy separating the colors.

Eric Fischer (1:09:19)

Ha ha!

Kevin Bellack (1:09:20)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:09:21)

Do you

guys count steps? Speaking of ADHD, do you count steps and not step on cracks when you walk on a sidewalk? Yeah, no,

Kevin Bellack (1:09:26)

Well, I don't sip on cracks, but I don't

typically count steps unless it's if unless I notice a pattern, then I'm like, shit, I noticed the pattern. Now I have to count the steps.

Eric Fischer (1:09:33)

Yeah, the pad. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Nadine (1:09:36)

count stairs, like I always like if walking up a stair. Yeah, yeah. Like I what do you do if you don't count steps? Like I don't

Eric Fischer (1:09:38)

That's what I meant. Yeah,

What are those people? How do they live?

Kevin Bellack (1:09:43)

Yeah.

you're I was thinking like as I'm walking outside, like counting my steps as I'm doing that. But I gotcha. Yeah, the actual stuff yeah. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ I know I got you know, I I allow myself some, you know, treats when I go to the movies. We went to the movies this weekend, I got a bag of Mike and Ike's and that it was the most ⁓ I I I'm I have a big sh sweet tooth. ⁓

Eric Fischer (1:09:49)

Wait, no, I meant, yeah, I meant, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that's funny.

Kevin Bellack (1:10:09)

But it was very I I was I allowed myself to just eat them because it was in a dark theater and I'm like, I can't see the different colors really. So we're just gonna eat this and enjoy it and not care. That's what I kept telling myself at the beginning. Cause I was like, I was sitting there at one point. I'm like, is that yellow? I'm like, screw it, stop it. ⁓ all right. I need to stop talking now. That's what my brain's telling me.

Eric Fischer (1:10:21)

you

Well, the three of us all have

ADHD. I'm sure we could just start rattling things off here.

Kevin Bellack (1:10:38)

yeah.

Nadine (1:10:38)

yeah. Like the sorting of can colored candies and then like then I have to eat them based on like the size, right? Like then it's like you eat the small the smallest number first and then I would go up from there. Yeah. Yeah. It's the little things.

Kevin Bellack (1:10:52)

Yep. Yeah.

Yeah. And if my wife or daughter come like towards the end of me eating like something and I they know the rule from friends, Joey doesn't share food. ⁓ if you want some of this, you better get it early because towards the end, I'm saving all my favorites for the end. It's a whole thing. yeah, I'm like, you're not gonna you're not gonna like, can I have one? ⁓ now that I have all reds, you want it?

Eric Fischer (1:10:55)

that I hope to make.

You

Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ man. That's good.

Kevin Bellack (1:11:22)

⁓

said too much. well thank you, Nadine. I think ⁓ yeah, I really appreciate you sharing all of this with us. ⁓ yeah, we'll ⁓ jump into our unless there was anything else, Eric, Nadine, was there anything else you wanted to touch on before we jump into the nuggets?

Nadine (1:11:32)

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Eric Fischer (1:11:40)

Nah.

Yeah, nah.

Nadine (1:11:41)

No, I feel

like I had like a million other thoughts at at various points, but no, we're good. I could go on forever.

Kevin Bellack (1:11:46)

Okay.

Yeah. I feel like we just gave out some nuggets too. but what did you learn this week? So this is our little ending thing. Could be completely off topic, not sobriety related at all. ⁓ just a little nugget for the listeners. I think I I have like for once I I've thought of like three. ⁓ but ⁓ I think I'll do one or two. I'll start with one. ⁓ if you are

Whether you are alcohol free, whether you're cutting back, whether you're mindfully moderating, whether you don't care or have an issue at all, and you drink and and all that, ⁓ one cool thing is when you know you're throwing a party and you include non alcoholic drinks with ⁓ with your alcoholic drinks. I just had I just went to

My daughter just graduated high school and so everybody's having grad parties now and all that. So we just went to one yesterday and ⁓ one of her friends and you know, our we we know people throwing it and friends with them. And I I saw him and he we just got there and he was like opened up he's ⁓ he's like, I got you I got you something for you. He opened up the door and he handed me a Labat Blue. I'm like, no, that's okay. I'm I'm good.

And they had gone on vacation with us in April for spring break. ⁓ I'm like, No, that's okay, I'm I'm good 'cause you know, I thought he just handed me a beer or whatever. ⁓ he's like, no no. He's like he's like, Look, he's like it was non alcoholic. So he remembered that I didn't drink and he I don't know if he got those special for me, but when he saw me, he made it a point to give that to me. So I thought that was really nice. ⁓ it's always nice when yeah, you you know, people think of think of things like that and think of other people and and not just like I don't know.

Here's all there's alcohol, you're on your own if you don't there's water over there.

Eric Fischer (1:13:31)

Yeah, it is.

Yeah, yeah, it's thoughtful. Yeah, it is. ⁓

Kevin Bellack (1:13:36)

Yeah. So anyway.

I don't know if that's a nugget, but that was a a cool thing that ⁓ happened yesterday, so

Eric Fischer (1:13:42)

Yeah, that's, I love that. You know, it, ⁓ I don't know. I saw, like, I, it reminded me, ⁓ well, it reminded me of a different study, but, that'd be, that'd be interesting, you know, with these grad parties, if you set up, if you're having a hundred people and you put two signs up alcoholic beers with a couple of coolers, non-alcoholic beers with a couple of coolers.

And then you do a survey at the end. What were the influences with the people and the alcohol versus the not? And kind of like, I don't know, there might be, that might be interesting. ⁓

Nadine (1:14:17)

Well, because like I forget this and it blows my mind because I don't know why I would it I don't understand people who would do this. But like normal drinkers, quote unquote normal drinkers, like will sometimes just pick the non-alcoholic option because it's there. Like they'll just like be like, yeah, I'll I'm just gonna for today drink a non-alcoholic beer or whatever, right? Which I think from my

mind like I was like I would never pick that. But I think it's would be fascinating because there's people who probably it's like, I'm gonna take the alcohol drink because that's what's here. But if there's a different option, how many people are just gonna pick the other option for whatever reason it is, right? ⁓ yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:14:58)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (1:14:58)

Yeah. Yeah.

I I was just to say I noticed that with my my brother as a pool and whenever I would ⁓ early on, I would go over and I used to drink at his pool all the time, but I would go over and I would be like, All right, I'm gonna be here this long. I take my three non alcoholic drinks with me and whatever they are, and and I get pissed because going back to the earlier, like I would get pissed because I'd have one and then they're like, what's this? And they crack it open and start drinking ⁓ whatever I brought. So then I learned like, okay, I'm gonna bring more.

And I and that the more I brought, they were like, what is what do they call it? Zebra striping, like alcoholic drink, non-alcoholic drink, like n alcoholic drink, non-alcoholic drink. And it's ⁓ they were going to that because it was there. And you're at the pool all day and you know, it's like I don't want to, you know, drink beers all day long, even though that's what we did. But when there's other options, you know, you reach for that.

Eric Fischer (1:15:49)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Bellack (1:15:50)

But I learned I had to bring extras cause yeah, I would get pissed when people would drink my beers that I would or whatever whatever it was. ⁓ and yeah. So

Eric Fischer (1:15:54)

Yeah.

⁓ they do it. well, I'll go real quick. Although what I learned nugget and, ⁓ I learned one is on ADHD actually that, ⁓ people with ADHD tend to eat the same foods day over day. So the, because it's less for the brain to think about.

what it is that I may have for dinner or lunch or breakfast. It's just easy. It's the whatever, yogurt, two eggs. I know it, it's done. So I learned a little bit about that, which I found interesting. And then I learned a little mechanical thing from my daughter who plays competitive volleyball. She's 13. So like how to serve mechanically, she taught me this little, which I relate to because of my baseball playing days. And it's quite similar actually, like how the volleyball serve is overhead.

And the arm has to be at 90 degrees. And then I was a pitcher. so that arms also has to be at 90 degrees. So I learned a little volleyball nugget this week.

Kevin Bellack (1:16:55)

Did you do well? How to does it transfer from baseball to volleyball?

Eric Fischer (1:16:57)

Did it?

Yeah, it actually does. Same thing with kind of with like tennis as well. Just the, the, the above arm, because if you're throwing or you're hitting, it's very, very similar. Yeah. So, know, ⁓ that's what I had.

Nadine (1:17:14)

All right.

My nuggets. ⁓ one, I learned that in baseball, if the ⁓ if you get hit by a pitch but you've swung the bat, it still counts as a strike. It doesn't count as a hit by pitch. Just thought I'd throw that sports one in there because that was a new one for me this week. I like score keeping baseball. It's very soothing. ⁓

Eric Fischer (1:17:32)

Mm-hmm.

Nadine (1:17:36)

But then on a like deeper note, ⁓ and this isn't a new one, it was just like one I reheard recently, and I was like, ⁓ yes, which is don't let perfection be the enemy of the good. And that's always like a key one for me because I would much prefer to let perfection get in my way of doing anything. ⁓ and so that one resurfaced in my life this past week. And I was like, ⁓ yeah, that's such a great tip, right? Just ⁓ any any progress is better than.

Eric Fischer (1:17:47)

Hmm.

Nadine (1:18:05)

nothing. So you can't always be perfect as much as we want to be.

Kevin Bellack (1:18:08)

Yeah. Well, and the fact that we're like, I want to be perfect, so I'm not gonna start this yet, but I'm gonna figure out how to do it. I'm gonna but then but then at the very last minute, I'm gonna do it and it just has to get done and it's not perfect, like why can't I remind myself that that's where it's gonna end up anyway? So just go. It doesn't have to be perfect. ⁓ 'cause it's not going to be.

Nadine (1:18:14)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:18:15)

yeah, right, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Nadine (1:18:28)

Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.

Kevin Bellack (1:18:30)

Yeah.

Nadine (1:18:30)

That was very ADHD relatable.

Eric Fischer (1:18:32)

Yeah, yeah, really? Yeah. All or nothing. That sink or swim. Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (1:18:32)

Yeah.

Nadine (1:18:33)

Okay.

Kevin Bellack (1:18:36)

Yeah, the ⁓ I'm still I'm still like in my mind like how do you how where's the how do you is that where how how early are you swinging that baseball bat for to swing the bat and then get hit by the pitch?

Eric Fischer (1:18:51)

Well, it usually

happens with the hands. if the hands are part of the bat.

Nadine (1:18:53)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Bellack (1:18:55)

So it's

as it's swinging and ⁓ so

Nadine (1:18:57)

Yeah. And so it hits your hands

and your back or like it hits your hands and then it you're it still counts as a strike and you don't get to advance.

Kevin Bellack (1:19:07)

Is that why they're point is that why they're always pointing down the lines at the first or third base ⁓ umpire to see if he that's all the way through past the line, right? ⁓ Same thing apply.

Nadine (1:19:11)

Well that's if your swing went all the way or not.

Mm-hmm. Which also interestingly

enough we're returning this into a baseball podcast. But interestingly enough, there's like no hard fast rule on that. Like it's just like up to the ump to decide.

Kevin Bellack (1:19:27)

Yeah.

Nadine (1:19:27)

Fascinating.

Kevin Bellack (1:19:28)

I'm not gonna talk baseball with Eric here, so I'm just gonna shut up.

Eric Fischer (1:19:31)

Yeah. That's it though. You've got it. You've got it. Yeah. Hands are part of the bat on the swing.

Kevin Bellack (1:19:35)

Yeah. I would not want to get hit by a pitch. I don't know. Have you ever got hit by a pitch? Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:19:40)

I have. Yes, I've

been hit. I've been hit Prince Fielder Jr. I mean, I've been hit a lot playing as long as I played. yeah, that ball comes out of your out of your hand at 92 miles an hour and it comes back at you about 115 and your feet aren't even you're still on one foot. I've been hit. Yeah, I've been taken in the it's got me in the rib. It's got me in the I mean, yeah. Yeah. Ankle shin back.

Kevin Bellack (1:19:57)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:20:05)

Yeah, but it doesn't, you know, it doesn't happen. Pitchers don't get hit as much as people may think. If it were that dangerous, the game would have already changed, you know, many years ago. So, you know, ⁓ you really don't you there's some close ones, but you don't get you don't get hit as often as people think.

Kevin Bellack (1:20:16)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. When I used to work at public accounting, like we we did the Indians ⁓ now Guardians, but it back then it was the Cleveland Indians, ⁓ all their work and that and it was ⁓ all like the partners and that had tickets and so we would always good we would always get free tickets 'cause there's so many games. So and the one seats that I hated were on the three ⁓ the third baseline and we were like a couple rows back. I never paid attention to games as much as I did in those seats because I did and that was before like all the nets are up and everything.

Eric Fischer (1:20:51)

The net,

yeah.

Kevin Bellack (1:20:52)

I was like I was definitely afraid of just sitting there and getting hit with the ball.

Eric Fischer (1:20:56)

Well, that's

what I have seen when you're when you're a player, you play you're playing every day. And I was also playing before those nets went down the lines. That's where that's where I did see people get really hurt. Kids like I mean, it was not. Yeah, I've seen some bad injuries down there because you're not paying attention. You know, you're even nachos. You're talking to a friend and then all of sudden. Drinking all that. Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (1:21:08)

Yeah.

Yeah. I was drinking at the time. That was years ago. It was twenty years ago. So yeah, I

was like I paid attention. All right. Enough. Okay, this is the reframe baseball, reframable baseball podcast. ⁓ yeah, thanks, Nadine. Thanks so much for sharing here with us today. Thanks, Eric.

Eric Fischer (1:21:25)

Yeah.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha

Nadine (1:21:34)

Thank you.

Eric Fischer (1:21:35)

Yeah, thank you so much.

Kevin Bellack (1:21:37)

and thank you all for listening to another episode of the Reframeable Podcast brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. ⁓ if you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share ⁓ with those that you feel may benefit from it. And I want to thank you again for listening and be sure to come back for another episode. Have a great day.