Understanding Cravings, Building Habits & Playing the Long Game

What does it actually take to change a belief you've held for years — that you need alcohol to unwind, to sleep, to survive a hard day? In this episode, Coach Kevin and Coach Frank sit down with Ray Carroll, a four-year Reframe community member, to explore what happens when education alone isn't enough and why the missing ingredient for so many people is simply asking for help.

They dig into the long game of recovery — what to expect when the initial motivation fades, why craving doesn't mean failure no matter how far into the journey you are, and how to build a personal plan that holds up when life punches you in the mouth.

The conversation also takes an honest look at journaling — why so many people resist it, how to start small enough that it actually sticks, and why just showing up and writing the date counts. Plus, what it really feels like to share in a meeting for the first time, and why saying "I'm here" is sometimes all you need.


If you've been waiting for the dramatic moment where everything clicks — this episode is worth a listen.

The Reframeable podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the #1 app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. If you have a topic you'd like us to cover on the podcast, send an email to podcast@reframeapp.com or, if you're on the Reframe app, give it a shake and let us know what you want to hear.

Transcript

Kevin Bellack (00:00)

Welcome everyone to another episode of the Reframable Podcast, the podcast that brings you people's stories and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship, not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more. Because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass. This podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol.

It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. My name is Kevin Bellach. I'm a certified professional recovery coach and the head of coaching at reframe.

Frank Spinelli (00:37)

And I'm Frank Spinelli, I'm a certified health coach with Refame as well.

Kevin Bellack (00:42)

And today we're joined by fellow reframer Ray Carroll. Ray is a certified athletic trainer who lives in Kentucky, father of two beautiful and successful daughters. He has been alcohol free for four years, thanks to the reframe community. he loves to read, hunt mushrooms, run, and talk to Kevin. What's up, Ray? How's it going? Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (01:00)

He just added that.

Ray (01:03)

Hey Kevin.

Frank Spinelli (01:04)

Hey Ray.

Ray (01:04)

Hey Frank, how are you how doing? Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (01:06)

I swear I didn't add that. I'm reading what

Frank Spinelli (01:08)

I don't believe

you.

Ray (01:09)

I did. I hadn't spoken to you in so long. I just was so excited when Tina sent me an invitation and I got excited because I got to see you again and talk to you. So and anything I can do to help with the reframe community and any chance I any chance I get to talk about sobriety and the journey I've been on is always a pleasure and any chance I get to talk to people about it and help people, I I'm all for it.

Kevin Bellack (01:16)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, well thank you for that. yeah, we appreciate you coming on. so where where do we wanna where do we wanna jump in? Wanna go ahead and share your story at any point. Yeah.

Ray (01:39)

Well, I can tell you about yeah,

I'll I'll tell you about the night I purchased three hundred dollars worth of football cards. but they weren't just football cards, Kevin. They were football cards of punters and kickers. And here we go. I even have the evidence ⁓ exhibit aid to prove it. I have a whole box down here and every time I bring this up, I always tell people, Hey, I've

Kevin Bellack (01:57)

You have them.

Frank Spinelli (02:00)

Ha ha!

Ray (02:05)

If you want to buy some off me, you can, but I still have a box of about a hundred and fifty kicker and punter NFL cards. This one is signed by the immortal Russell Erksleben. Went to the University of Texas, played for the New Orleans Saints. So get it while you can. But ⁓

Kevin Bellack (02:24)

There there you go. You you heard

it here first. we'll we'll drop the eBay link at the end of the show and yeah.

Frank Spinelli (02:29)

Hahaha.

Ray (02:31)

So that

started I d my drinking I didn't I grew up in a very religious household.

Kevin Bellack (02:35)

Well, wait, let's let's just

say like we just you just threw that out. Like w I remember we joked that like this was kind of a rock bottom moment, right? Because you didn't buy those on purpose.

Frank Spinelli (02:39)

Ha ha ha ha.

Ray (02:45)

Yeah what?

I well I'm getting there. yeah, I'm getting there. That was the hook. That was the hook, Kevin. That was the hook. You gotta stick around for the story. I s I grew up in a really like religious household. I was brought up right, never drank, went to a nice conservative Southern Baptist school for undergraduate, went to seminary, got my sports medicine degree during that period, got married.

Kevin Bellack (02:48)

Okay, okay. Just making sure. Yeah. Gotcha.

Frank Spinelli (02:48)

Okay.

Ray (03:11)

Had some kids, actually became a pastor while I was working, doing my sports medicine stuff. And while I was a pastor and working a sports medicine job at the same time, working two full time jobs, in my in my thirties, I was watching a movie one time and

They were all drinking in this movie and and they made a drink and I thought that's a really cool looking drink. And I thought I could make that drink. And I thought I it would probably be really relaxing if I had a drink. And what I didn't know at the time, due to my kind of upbringing about not being around alcohol too much and never really drinking my entire life, was that there are two types of people in the world. There are people who

You c you see in the in the alcohol commercials who can have a drink and then put it down. And then there are people who have a drink and then have another and another and another and they can't stop. And what I didn't know is that my DNA is encoded so that my grandfather, my uncles, my many of my relatives have have had a problem with alcohol use disorder.

And I didn't know that at time. and so when I picked up that first drink, the next day I had another one and another one. And then it it just kept adding on and adding on and it I felt a little bit like the stress was gone was going away. Well that was a problem, obviously, since I was pastor at the time. And also because I was kinda trying to keep it secret and then I started lying to myself about how much I was drinking, but I I kept drinking more and I had to

my daughters at the time and I was married and as time went on I began to drink more and the stress I would drink when I got home from work and it felt pretty good and I felt like the stress was going away. and I didn't think it was that big a deal. And that long part of that story short is I did that for twenty years. for the first few years of that it wasn't too bad, but it kind of started getting out of control.

And while I was drinking for a first few years, my mom died in a in a car accident. My dad died in the accident and I started drinking more. And then I drank a whole lot more after mom died. And then after that happened, I really started to understand. I understand now

That what happens when you drink and drink and drink is that it really affects your brain. That's one of the things that reframe reframe helped me understand is it lowers your inhibitions. And, you know, to my to my shame, I say that I threw away a perfectly good marriage because of alcohol. And I left the ministry because of alcohol. And I split that family wide open because of some very poor decisions that I made. But

It didn't stop me drinking. And I got into a new relationship and I drank more. I tried a couple times to stop drinking on my own, but they weren't successful. COVID, you know, I was I was doing a pretty good job of hiding my drinking. Again, I would only drink when I got home at night. I would never went out and drank. I would go by the liquor store every time on the way home. I knew all the good liquor stores and I would just find myself pulling into it on the way home. And sometimes I would think to myself,

I don't need a drink tonight, you know. I I I'm strong enough not to pull through that drive through. But I wasn't and COVID hit and being in healthcare, it got worse and I drank more and more and more. And I I remember being in the reframe community community, how many healthcare workers they were going through that exact same thing and people who were trying to get over having trouble drinking just because of COVID.

finally, because I had done so much drinking for twenty years, I was drinking many times at night a fifth of liquor. just so I could get s I I would I was saying it was because I needed stress relief, because I needed to get some sleep, because I deserved it, you know, because I I had to have it to get me through the night. I had many times I would

post inappropriate things on Facebook and say stupid things online and I would delete them. many times my anger would come out at home. you know I would I would say something rude to my partner. I would just go hide by myself and drink, you know, by myself. I would I was not myself around my kids and then they noticed. but it all kind of came to a head one night and I was online blackout drunk.

And the next day I woke up and I had all these notifications from eBay. And I had ordered apparently $300 worth of football cards. And they were all punters and kickers. Now, I don't know why. probably because you know, I've always used to because I think John Madden used to make fun of kickers when he was when I was growing up and he'd always laugh about kickers' names. And most of the kickers I have in my collection are guys with

Great last names. And I for some reason blackout drunk Ray really thought it would be hilarious to order all these cards. and that night, when I woke up the next morning, hung over, and as the football cards started coming in the mail, you know, I I made a decision and I thought, I've tried before, but this has really got to stop. I was 228 pounds, which is not good, I'm five foot ten. And

I've got type one diabetes, which is even worse. And I feel miserable. I'm miserable when I go into work. I'm hung over every day. I'm barely keeping it together. I've got anxiety. I've got depression. You know, what am I doing with myself? And so also that night, I was looking back at my my journal today. Always keep a journal. I was looking back at my journal that night, besides download or ordering a bunch of

cards on eBay, I'd also downloaded the reframe app. And so that morning at work, I got on the reframe app and I was like, it starts today. And so I had tried other things before, but reframe spoke to me. kind of religion and and you know my background and my history and all those things were kind of in the rearview mirror. And really what I spoke to me about reframe was the science. And

It told me what alcohol was doing to my body. And I thought, if I can show up for myself the same time every day, I think I can do this. And I'd done that before through another program, through my work. But I thought if I can do this every day at the same time, you know, maybe, maybe this'll work this time. And I did. And I did day one and then day two, I discovered meetings and I got on and I found out there were other people and I I lurked. I didn't

I didn't do anything. I just listened to other people and I thought, my goodness, there's other people out here who are going through the exact same thing. And I realized that this is this is not just a me problem. This is a an every a lot of people problem. And it really helped me. And I was I I remember people saying, you know, it's minute by minute. And it really was minute by minute. My sobriety was.

Frank Spinelli (10:03)

you

Ray (10:27)

And it was a struggle when I went home that first night. And it was a struggle that second night. But I would get on a meeting if there was a meeting available. And I would write things down if I could. And then day three came and I was listening to people in meetings talking about, you know, halt. And if you're hungry, angry, lonely, tired, and if and I had s I I make it halts, I make it stress. I had stress to that too, because stress is a big trigger for me. and I I listened and I went through it.

And I didn't tell my family I was doing it because they had been so worn out by me telling them so many times that I was gonna get sober. And I didn't tell them. I didn't tell my I didn't tell my partner. I didn't tell anybody, didn't tell my kids, and I waited for three weeks. And three weeks went by, just me struggling with it and driving by the liquor store every day. And I remember after three weeks, I finally told my partner and she was like, Do you think it's working?

And I said, it it appears to be, and I I said, you know, I said, I want to go through this. And I said, if if I think I need help, I said they have personal coaching on there. And I said, if I get to a a really bad spot with my cravings, I'm gonna sign up for personal coaching. And about a month and a half, it was about six weeks, and it got bad because I had a bad day at work. And she said, do it.

She said, don't, whatever it costs, just do it. And that I got signed up with Kevin. And I will say this unequivocally as an unpaid spokesman for reframe, that reframe the reframe community changed my life. It saved my life. The people who showed up every day in Reframe, the people who were just like me.

They saved my life. And me showing up for myself every day, it changed my life and it saved my life. And Kevin, you saved my life. Showing up for me and personal coaching every day or every week like you did, that saved my life. And what had gone wrong for me for all those years, all those different ways that I tried, the missing ingredient was that I never asked for help. And you can't do it by yourself.

Kevin Bellack (12:45)

Yeah.

Ray (12:46)

And I'd been trying by myself and it didn't work because I needed help. And so, you know, I got help with you, and it made all the difference in the world. And so I'm four years now. I remember celebrating the one year, and I've I really thought like one year was gonna be like this great day where everything changed, and it didn't.

Kevin Bellack (13:09)

Yeah.

Ray (13:09)

And then I thought at two years it was gonna be like this great day where everything changed and it didn't. And I'm at four years now and I remember it when I got to three years, I was like, I'm not expecting anything this time. And I still don't, you know, because it's still is it is it better? Yeah. Yeah, it's not it's not like it was in this for that first day or those first three weeks, the first three days, the first three days are the hardest. But it's better. And I'm glad I did it. And

I'm glad I found ref.

Frank Spinelli (13:38)

Yeah, thank you so much for telling that story and wow, great that you somehow I find what's so interesting is during your last episode when you were blackout drunk buying all those cards you downloaded reframe. Isn't that interesting? The way you had dissociated from yourself. There was a part of you that was like, we need help. There was a part of you that was asking for help. You brought up something that really hit home for me. I'm also a healthcare provider and

Kevin Bellack (13:39)

Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (14:07)

Certainly during the pandemic, was, we all went through it. So that's a commonality we all share. I was talking about this the other day with one of my own clients and we talked about how during the pandemic, it was considered alcohol or liquor stores were essential. Like, could you imagine that? We were recognizing that we need alcohol.

And I remember driving into town and seeing a line outside because you had to go in, you know, one at a time to buy your alcohol. I looked up the statistic because I had done the research. So research would show that Americans increase their alcohol consumption in the first year of the pandemic, 2020. Drinks per month jumped by nearly 40 percent from February to November.

Ray (14:43)

We can't.

Frank Spinelli (14:56)

with women's heavy drinking episodes increasing by 41%. So actually more women drank than men during that early period. And it's astounding to me that we talk about this and how did that influence you being a healthcare provider yourself? Did you feel, and I'm putting words in your mouth, any shame in going and joining Reframe? that any of the reason why you were lurking initially?

Ray (15:20)

Yeah, you know, as so I do sports medicine and I work with

In a secondary school setting. And you know, there's always as a healthcare provider that this is just for me. I and I've and I've I was in a healthcare provider group on reframe too, and I know other people reflected this as well. There's a feeling that how can I as a healthcare provider do so much damage to myself, knowing what this is really doing to me.

But at the same time, you know, your animal brain is telling you, well, how am I going to get through the day if I don't have my drink? And how am I going to deal with all this stress if I don't have a drink? you know, and you have those two voices talking to you in your head, and it's very difficult. And it the the guilt and the shame and really do a number on your mental health and

Kevin Bellack (15:56)

Yeah.

Ray (16:12)

Especially during the pandemic. I mean it was just, you know, and you a lot of unanswered questions about, you know, where am I gonna be? Where is this going? You know, where are we where are we gonna end up after all this? And it just compounded the situation and you felt like the only answers that there were were to be found at the bottom of the bottle.

Frank Spinelli (16:31)

Right, yeah, think that's, I think everybody probably shares that to some degree. It's also interesting because a lot of healthcare providers do feel there was the duality of it and you mentioned.

Kevin Bellack (16:32)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (16:42)

what alcohol had done to your brain and learning a lot about it through reframe. It's interesting because there was a really good movie with Michael Keaton called Dope Sick. And this was about the opioid epidemic and it really impacted people's brains. And certainly we know now with the neuroscience that the impact that alcohol is having on your brain sort of negates the other voice that says, what are you doing? We shouldn't be drinking. And the other voice saying in response, yeah, but we need a drink.

It's really tough. I'm watching people die. Work is stressful. You mentioned I deserve a drink. I think that is really profound. How soon after you started going to meetings and listening to other people and learning about the neuroscience, when did it click for you? I mean, I know you started right away and it sounds like it was a progression, but when do you think it clicked?

Ray (17:34)

You know, that's that's a good question. And I've thought I've thought about like when was the moment that it all settled in for me and I don't know I can pinpoint it. I think because I think sobriety is such a process, it's it's like a

It's it's have r really I think sobriety partially is about having your belief challenged because you have these beliefs that I need alcohol to survive. I need alcohol to get through my day. I need alcohol in order to be a calmer person. I need alcohol to be able to sleep at night. I need alcohol to survive.

And those are beliefs you have. And if you've ever tried to change someone's beliefs, you can't do it. You just you can't tell someone just to stop believing something. That person has to be convinced. And so there's no there was no day that I just had this amazing wake-up thing. And now is what's so beautiful about reframe. The only way that you can change someone's beliefs is through education.

Kevin Bellack (18:31)

Mm-hmm.

Ray (18:56)

And through being there for them. And the reframe community gave me knowledge, but it also gave me people who were there for me living the truth that I wanted to be. And there were people who were just starting. And then there were people who were a month ahead of me. There were people who were a year ahead of me. And it challenged my beliefs that I could say, I don't want to be this anymore.

I want to be that woman who is three months sober and she has control over her life and her kids are talking to her. That's who I want to be. And that's so there wasn't a moment, it was just this it was like a it's just like a cascading waterfall of of changing of beliefs and ideals and a a vision of who I wanted to become. And

And that's how b how belief change. And it's someday, I I can't say when it happened, but at some moment I I knew there was that initial day where I said, I don't want to be this person anymore. But

Kevin Bellack (19:53)

Yeah.

Ray (20:03)

At some moment I started to believe that I could be that

Kevin Bellack (20:06)

Yeah. And that's hard to like you said, it's hard to pinpoint 'cause it is that like you said, like, I'm gonna get to one year, everything's gonna change at one year and I'm gonna be fine. And it's like, I'm gonna get to two years and then but everything did change, but it's just not that like like that the the the l the sun shines and you know, the clouds part and all that stuff and ⁓

Frank Spinelli (20:30)

All

Kevin Bellack (20:30)

It it's just like little

by little and you look back and you're like, okay, I can see it, you know, I can connect some of the dots along the way there. And then like you mentioned that belief, and that's because like education is I'll say needed slash helpful. Like I don't want to go too far in because we we can have all the education in the world and we can still we can know something does this, but that doesn't necessarily change

How we see it or how you know it impacts us. Cause I know I was like, well, how am I going deal with stress or whatever? And I remember that, you know, a first time when I stopped at work and I was like, why am I not more stressed right now? And it was like I was like a couple of weeks alcohol free. And I was like, I see. Like it was that bul you know, realization that that was causing it. But it it took me a while to get to that point.

Frank Spinelli (21:01)

You

Kevin Bellack (21:21)

And I think, you know, to your point, like that belief and seeing other people do it and looking at them and be like, I want that. What are they doing? And that belief that if others are doing it, well then I can too. Right. And yeah, I think that's huge. But like that whole er everything changes, but nothing changes like everything changes, but it's like it's almost that imperceptible thing. And yeah, there might be some of those epiphanies or

whatever they come up along the way, but Frank to your point, the I'm pretty sure that the algorithm is the quote unquote algorithm is set up that if you buy three hundred dollars worth of punter and kicker cards, nothing against any punters and kickers out there, the next the next ads they're sending you are like reframe. So I'm pretty sure that's set up that way. They're like, you might need this. You

Frank Spinelli (22:03)

you

Yeah, yeah, definitely. might need this. Yeah, you need

Ray (22:08)

Yeah, you were the server up, I

Frank Spinelli (22:12)

to get offline. You know, I couldn't agree more, Kevin. I think education is a huge component. Obviously, there's a lot of neuroscience. But, you know, you're at a point where I don't care what you were what we were telling you, you know, you weren't receptive to it. Also, you're in health care. So that's another one. Three, you're a type one diabetic.

So you know that you're drinking sugar and what is that doing to me? And still there is this steadfast belief that I need to, you know, Kevin, I forgot what you just said, but you just clicked for me. Like the escapism is so overwhelmingly more important than actually my health.

or actually how much money I'm spending on alcohol and all of those things. So I love what you said. It wasn't just a matter of having enough data or information. It was about being challenged in my belief system and thinking what you just said. If these people can do it, then certainly I could. I have often said this, it's the desire or the belief that your life is better than what you have right now. Like things have gotta be better.

for me, I didn't plan to be this and I certainly don't wanna do this for the rest of my life and finding that way out whether it's through Reframe or not, I think the connection from the community meetings is what really, what I was getting back to earlier, a lot of people that I speak to say the community meetings are what made everything click into place. I was like, this is it. I'm curious about one thing because it sounds like you had such an amazing journey.

What did you honestly expect was gonna happen at one year? Did you really think the heavens were gonna part? Because it sounds like you got everything you wanted. You were happier, healthier, you had more connections. What more did you think you were gonna see a sign from the heavens?

Ray (24:05)

Well, I

you know, I felt like I'm I'm I'm a progression type person. Like like I I I've been try like I tr when I train to run, I expect to have a certain time. And when I start a project, I expect to have everything neat and tidy and and a something at the end to say you finished and you know I I expect to have a an award or a progress report or a grade.

Frank Spinelli (24:17)

I see.

Ray (24:31)

or something. But what I've learned about sobriety is that, you know, then they they've they say it in the meetings, you know, that it's a journey and it's not it's not a race. It's and you know it's it's it's not you know it's it's not a completion. It's it's a lifetime journey. And it I think it it's taken time for that message to settle in a little bit. But it's that's been a life lesson for me.

Frank Spinelli (24:43)

Right.

Ray (24:57)

because I'm very much a person who likes to race to get things done. And this has given me a chance to reflect and change my life in a lot of different ways, in meaningful ways that I would would not have before just just by becoming alcohol free.

Frank Spinelli (25:13)

Did you notice, and this is sort of personal, so you don't have to answer, did you notice any immediate effects on your health, having been a type 1 diabetic and having been, you said, 225 at 510, did you notice any physical changes?

Ray (25:30)

yes. so I it was, it was. you know, my I I deal with you know anxiety and depression. I'm I'm bipolar type two. so I it it decreased stress and and anxiety and it my sugars obviously got better. my control got better. You know, I I had lied to my endocrinologist for years.

Frank Spinelli (25:31)

Well, wasn't that good enough for the one year anniversary?

Kevin Bellack (25:35)

Yeah.

Ray (25:54)

You know, he thought I had he thought I had some kind of liver disease. and I f because my bilirubin was always so high. And I finally just told him when I went in that next visit after I quit in March and I went to go see him in May. And I told him, I said, Man, I've been drinking for twenty years. And he said, and I said, Yeah. And so and he said, It makes a big difference. I said, Yeah, it does. So, that that first three months

set of blood cultures and then the one a year after were very

Frank Spinelli (26:23)

No, that's good to know. So you did see really some impact on your health by quitting. So that's good.

Kevin Bellack (26:24)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And you if I remember correctly, like you know, you you try you put yourself out there and tried a lot of different things, a lot of new things that you weren't necessarily that you've never done before. I know yoga was one of them, but you like getting in shape and doing different things like that. I remember at one point, like you're like, I'm gonna do yoga, like, really, yoga. And then I feel like

Frank Spinelli (26:34)

you

Kevin Bellack (26:55)

A while like months later or a year later, you're like, I can't imagine a day where I don't do yoga. like that was how, you know, much of a change had happened just by doing that and trying it, right? And so yeah, what what else have you or you know, what kind of things did you throw at it? 'cause I know it was a lot of little things like that along the way that that helped. You just like, okay, I'm gonna try this. You were open to those things.

Ray (27:21)

journaling, which if you if if anybody knows Kevin, they will know journaling is really important. In fact I was looking back over my sobriety journal before I got on here and I'm so glad I did that. I it's it's irreplaceable. I mean it's it's it's something that's very precious to me to have. a lot of things happened in that first year and a lot of most of it was good, some of it was bad.

But I it all became because of change, but I'm so glad I have that journal. You know, I did meditation. Meditation is the one thing that made one of the biggest differences in my life. And meditation meaning, you know, just being able to in the simplest way, just being able to be find quiet time for yourself and be silent and observe yourself and just just be peaceful and quiet your mind.

You know, Sam Harris talks about meditation a lot and he does a really good job with that. You know, I I've I've kept up running. You know, I I don't like I really don't like to run. but but I do it because I I when I'm when I'm let me say this. When I'm sitting here talking about it, I do not like to run. But when I'm running, like I enjoy it. But like when I'm not running, I hate it. So I I've

Frank Spinelli (28:34)

You

Kevin Bellack (28:37)

Yeah.

Ray (28:42)

Did yoga. do I do as can I imagine a day without yoga now? Yes. Do I still do some poser now and then? Yes. So yoga was a big d deal big made a big difference in my life for a long time. Is it is it still make a difference in my life? Yes. But not every day.

Kevin Bellack (28:46)

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's understandable. and you mentioned too, I even pulled out one of my little medals here. Here, here you go. Here's your medal for ⁓ hitting a year. a little Game of Thrones race medal. because you know it's like it goes along with that, like, well, I thought, you know, I'm a runner. Whenever I finish something, I get a medal and I get this, you know, and that's like, well, I hit a year.

Frank Spinelli (29:07)

Hahaha

Ray (29:07)

⁓

Frank Spinelli (29:10)

Hahaha.

Kevin Bellack (29:21)

And yeah, you got a medal. You got the you have to say, okay, I hit one year, and you can celebrate that, but what do you do if you're a runner the day after? You keep going. Like you okay, what's next? You know, and that's I know I had that thought the month after I hit a year. I'm like, now what? Like this is it? Like, two years, like just keep running. And and that can be challenging, right? you know, I was just listening to

Podcast I shared with a lot of people, I think it was a diary of a CEO with James Clear. And he, you know, they do the whole, they talk about habits and they're like, How long does it take to build a habit? And it's like, there's the 66 days. And he told about 18 to 215 or whatever. And but I love that you know, Clear said, he's like, How long does it take a habit? He's like, Forever. essentially he said forever, because if you stop, it's no longer a habit.

See, you kinda have to keep doing it. You know, how long does it take to kind of become more automatic? That's where the sixty six days and stuff comes in. But yeah, if we stop doing it, it's like going to the gym. If you okay, I got in shape, now what? Well, gotta go to the gym tomorrow. Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (30:26)

Keep going, yeah, you gotta

keep going. You know, I have a question based on that.

Ray (30:28)

So you know, something easy.

No, I was gonna say just back on Kevin, what you were saying, you know, habit building is something we work on in reframe. And, you know, what when I after you and I stopped doing personal coaching, I you know, I I built a model for what it would look like for me with habits. And some of the habits I something you told me when we were doing personal coaching was I needed to replace the bad habits with good habits.

And I and I read Atomic Habits, which is a life changer. If anybody hasn't read that, it'll change your life if you if you put those things into practice. And things that I still do, I still walk. I find time to walk every day. I still drink two to three liters of water every day. I still take time every day to focus on meditation and quiet myself. I still every day.

trying the r a regular time to eat when I when I'm supposed to eat so I'm not hungry. I still have a person to emergency phone contact to if I need to contact somebody. And I still have people I know who have had trouble with sobriety themselves who I know understand what I'm talking what I'm talking about if I need to contact them in case of emergency and I write my thoughts down regularly. So it's those are still habits that I had from four years ago.

When I first started and I I promise you I there's days when I still have cravings and those things hit you out of nowhere, even four years later. and if I didn't have those habits, I still I would not be successful today.

Frank Spinelli (32:02)

You know, I was gonna have a question. I think it's for both of you. One of the things I find, and I'd like to hear your advice, is that when you suggest journaling, some people roll their eyes, like they feel like it's an assignment. So what would be some tips, since it works so well for you? And Kevin, know you lead groups on journaling. How do you...

Ray (32:18)

So ⁓

Frank Spinelli (32:24)

recommend starting it. Like, because I think people are resistant. They're like, it feels like it's homework and I don't know how to do this. And so what is the way you launch people into try doing this, for example.

Kevin Bellack (32:35)

well, I like the tiny habits approach where it's like focusing on or any habit approach, focusing on actually, yeah. I I got all kinds of books floating around in my head with all their phrases and stuff, but it's like how do I just how do I show up for it? And because it was it was helpful for me.

Frank Spinelli (32:35)

You

Kevin Bellack (32:54)

Because and I started off, I would say journaling just in a way where I was messaging my therapist. Like that was a big part of my starting point for journaling was like actually just messaging her in the BetterHelp app, which we were using at the time, back then. And I I kind of considered that my first like thoughts where I was dumping onto it was digital, but

dumping on to paper, let's say, and and I shared them, most of them, with someone else, but not all of them. and that wasn't a requirement at the time, but I was doing it. So I feel like that kind of opened up the door for me a little bit. And then I started doing, I tried out and and this goes to trying different things, right? Trying different ways. Because there's no one way to do it. There's no right way to do it. And if you write a

date at the top of your page and close your journal, which I'll talk, I'll get to. That's journaling. Like it doesn't have to be, you know, this long, you know, all my feelings and talking through that and stuff. So it's I I did the Miracle Morning life savers, savers acronym where it's silence, affirmations, visualization, exercise, reading and scribing or journaling. And my scribing in that

Frank Spinelli (33:45)

You

Right. Right.

Kevin Bellack (34:06)

process in the morning that I was doing was my gratitude list. So I would open up my journal app and I would have a a note in there with gratitude. And I would write, you know, three thing I would write the date at the top and I would write three things I was grateful for. The next day I would come in and start at the top and push that old one down and and I would do three things. and then after about a week of doing that and saying the same thing for everything, I was like, all right, let's come up with a new rule. You can't repeat yourself in a in a week.

Frank Spinelli (34:24)

I

Kevin Bellack (34:35)

So if I say I love coffee on Monday, I can't say it at least until next Monday. So it gave me an idea to to you know put something else down on paper, right? And think, yeah, yeah. and and so like that's how it started. but really it was like I would I use the phrase like get curious about it. If I had a craving, I would usually pull out my

Frank Spinelli (34:45)

Yeah, push yourself in a way. Yeah, I like that.

Kevin Bellack (35:01)

phone because I had my journal app and I used digital then because more I use digital almost entirely then I do mostly paper now. I know it's a question too. I do paper now with some digital if I need to. but I use digital because I always had my phone with me and and so I could access it and I could and so I would write down like okay whoa where the hell did that come from? Like I'm just sitting here at work and I was like, I need a drink.

And I would I would take a second and I'd be like, all right, why did that what do I think is the reason that that might have showed up right now? Like what am I feeling right now? And kind of get curious about it that way. Sometimes I would go to get curious about it and I'd be like, Nope, I can't look at this right now. If I look at this too closely, it's gonna, you know, make me want to drink more. so yeah, you know, I had to be careful with that. But yeah, well, what I say now is like, you know, if I wanna after I get my cup of coffee and I open up my journal.

And I write the date at the top, I can close my journal and say I journaled that day. Like that's it. Like there's no, you know, I have to do three pages of morning pages, or I have to, you know, bear my soul to my journal or share it with other people or anything like that. so taking the I I think finding a good prompt to use or or a set of prompts is important.

Frank Spinelli (36:03)

the role.

Right.

Kevin Bellack (36:23)

To start out, like, you know, because what's the phrase, standardize before you optimize, right? Just that's why I found Miracle Morning and I used that and I did that for a while. And then after doing gratitude for a long time, I was like, All right, what else should I write about? And I found different prompts or I use the prompts in my app or whatever. So it's like finding something, but I think the biggest thing I said this recently in a journaling meeting when I was sharing about that, it's like I'm like 98%.

Of the stuff I wrote in my journals over the years, it's garbage. Like it's just, you know, thoughts on the day and stuff like that. But the two percent changed my life. you know, and it's but it's I had to show up and open up my journal and write something down and have a reason to write something down to even get that two percent, right? So that's where, you know, just trying it and be like, this is stupid, you know, try it a different way.

stick to it for thirty days. Do a stand do like a at the end of the day, write down three things that went well that day and why. You know, just something simple and repetitive. and see because what happens is is now that my journal is open and I'm writing those things, if I'm feeling a certain way, if I if I'm wanna I'm like, well let me let me write down some more on this too. But I can't do that if I don't show up for it, right? That's kind of my

Frank Spinelli (37:27)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (37:45)

that'll be my pitch, essentially. I I I guess, yeah. I know. I'm like I'm I'm like, all right, wrap it up. This isn't a journaling meeting.

Frank Spinelli (37:46)

That's the journaling 101 from Kevin right there in a nutshell. No, no, no, it was good. No, it's Ray. Is that what he taught you? Is that how it started out?

Ray (37:46)

very much.

Well, I've been journaling a long time. I love I love writing. ⁓ Yeah, but you know, one of the things I hear from when people say that it's difficult for them to journal, I think a the o you know, when when you tell people, you know, it's not this is not being read, it's not being graded. It I think a lot of people have really a really harsh inner critic. and when they know that they'll

Kevin Bellack (38:01)

Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (38:01)

out before

that.

Right, true.

Ray (38:26)

They know that the only person who's probably gonna read it is themselves. But they're also the worst judge of themselves. And so they're still overly concerned about what they write because they think what they write is stupid. And you know, they it's it's hard to convince someone that what they have to say is really important. And

That's why when Kevin says, you know, having problems is important. And you know, when I when I journal, sometimes the best I can do is saying things like, I feel today I feel angry. And maybe that's the best I can do. Or today I I wonder. And to I wonder, you know, why is the sky blue? I don't know. You know, and because if it was green, we'd get really confused. And but or you know, or I think.

Or, you know, I wonder why Kevin likes coffee so much. But you know, whatever, but something that gets your mind going. And and it may start small. And you may start start on day one with just this the simplest thing. But I think what's really important is learn not to judge yourself and learn maybe just to listen to yourself. And that's that's one of the biggest steps I think that's important.

Kevin Bellack (39:43)

And and that harsh yeah, that harsh inner critic too is like it's bullshit, right? Because we I mean we we think we talk to people and give a lot of people the benefit of doubt benefit of the doubt and not ourselves, right? So I think that's a good way of using it too. If like you're giving yourself you know, if you're giving yourself a hard time for something you said or did or whatever.

Frank Spinelli (39:44)

Yeah. Wow, that's good.

Kevin Bellack (40:12)

And yeah, maybe maybe you deserve it, maybe you don't, right? I'll just say that. But n I would say nine times out of ten or a harsh neurocritic, we probably don't deserve it the way like if if anybody else came to us, and this is how I kind of do it, if anybody else came to us with that set of circumstances and facts and details, would we say the same thing to them that we're saying to ourselves? And typically it would be no. So that could be, you know, challenging that and being like, I screwed up today on this and I have this.

Frank Spinelli (40:27)

Hmm. Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (40:39)

Thought of my head, writing that down and being like, well, what would I say to a friend who came to me with this same thing? It's not going to be, you know, what you're telling yourself. So it's like, how can I, you know, by writing that down, by seeing that, by typing it out, whatever, or even just, you know, where you can record it, or, you know, just record a video to yourself or whatever. It can be any of that. But doing an exercise like that can be helpful to.

realize like, okay, it wasn't that big of a deal. You didn't screw everything up, you know, that type of thing. And that could be very helpful. But you know, a lot of times with me too, with journaling, it was like I always think like, my thoughts are racing around in my head up here and journaling was a way to take out of here and put down somewhere so I could see them. And that helped help make them a little bit clearer, right? And drop some of that anxiety away. but yeah.

Frank Spinelli (41:25)

Yeah, I like that. Yeah.

Yeah,

that's good. I'm gonna recommend that. You know, it's funny you brought that up. I say this all the time and I'm sure you do too. It's talk to yourself like you would talk to your best friend. Like how would you talk to yourself? You wouldn't talk to your friend the way you talk to yourself. The only tip I have that I do, but I usually recommend journaling especially for people who feel stuck a little bit. the exercise I give them,

and I'm sure you do this, is I tell them to write for 10 minutes and don't worry about grammar or penmanship if they're writing, don't worry about punctuation, just write. So that releases them because I think what you said, Ray, they feel like people are gonna read it and judge them even though nobody's probably gonna read it, but it allows them to be free so that they, yes, you're not gonna get graded. No, this isn't an assignment. So freeing people up to write.

and making it a little bit about self-exploration and what am I going to come up with? And I find that when they read it the next day, they learn something, something has been unlocked in that exercise of not being restricted to, got to put a capital letter here and a period here and a quotation mark. It just allows you to just talk. It's sort of like free verse, I guess.

Kevin Bellack (42:52)

Yeah. I actually shared pages, two pages of my took picture of two pages. I I'm like read I I read it like a couple of times. I'm like, is this okay to send to somebody? And I sent it to a client because it was pertinent to like what I was talking about was something that what I was like writing about was something that we were talking about and but it was about myself and I kind of showed how like my thought process going through it and

Frank Spinelli (42:58)

Hahaha

Hahaha

Ray (43:02)

Okay.

Kevin Bellack (43:18)

And I wanted to delete that so bad so many times because it's just my my handwriting is atrocious and I don't care. And you know, it's like that's the thing. It's like if you have if you buy the prettiest journal too and you don't the the the second that you say like, well, I don't want to start this yet, I'm not ready for it, go in on the first page and just draw a bunch of just just scribble all over it and break the seal.

Frank Spinelli (43:36)

It's...

Kevin Bellack (43:43)

Like it's not meant to because yes, you can always look back on it and that can be helpful, but I think the some of the most benefit is just doing it. It's the process of writing or typing things out is what is the helpful part. And yeah, I've r I've looked back on a lot, especially with my digital journal, and that's been helpful. And and if you're worried about people

Frank Spinelli (43:45)

Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (44:06)

you know, reading it and stuff, digital's nice 'cause you can get a face ID and stuff like that. you know, there's there's all kinds of reasons why people are like, no, I'm not gonna do that because you know, there's plenty of people who come in a journaling meeting and have said like, yeah, my mom, my dad, so and so has read my journal in the past. And so I don't like to do that. And yeah, that's what we always say, like rip it up, ⁓ burn it, ⁓ put it in a app, whatever.

Frank Spinelli (44:11)

Wow.

You

Yeah, yeah, that's good.

Ray (44:33)

Well, you know, I think ⁓ I

think one of the other reasons that journaling is difficult is you know, you're you're putting yourself out there. even to yourself. I and one of the things I've I I was never honest with a counselor until I got sober. And because I didn't want to tell a counselor that I w had alcohol use disorder. And when you put yourself on a page, even a little bit

you're putting yourself somewhere out there and you're bit you're you you have to be on you don't have to be honest, but usually when you write your own words, you are being honest with yourself about how you feel, what you think, even the date. You're being honest about the date, Kevin. And it is a piece of you. And that's why pe you don't want people to see it. And even you don't want people to see your handwriting, you know, because it's a part of you.

And it's it's difficult and it's a difficult exercise. And that's why it's so challenging for many people because you are I'm literally placing myself out there and I don't want this these thoughts that I put in there to be discovered. And when you get really journaling and really putting your feelings and thoughts into it, you don't really want to share those things until you're ready.

Frank Spinelli (45:43)

You know, you just made me realize something. I find that the process of journaling, like you said, is laying your soul bare. You're exposing yourself. You're being vulnerable. It almost reminds me, and maybe tell me if I'm wrong, about speaking in a meeting and sharing. It's one thing to have thoughts in your head.

but when you actually write them out and see them and read them, or when you actually speak your truth, it becomes a reality. You're hearing yourself, you're reading what you wrote, and I think that in itself is very scary, but it's also very liberating because we're...

but we sort of grow up, many of us, to feel that being vulnerable is a sign of weakness when we know being vulnerable is a sign of courage, especially when we can speak honestly and from a place from the heart. I wonder, did you have that sort of experience when you were sharing in meetings that you felt like this was freeing you up and you were able to verbalize what you were saying as opposed to writing it? Was there a difference for you?

Ray (46:50)

Yeah, and you know, I I don't have a I've never had a problem public speaking. but I will I will tell you that every single reframer, almost ninety-nine percent of them have the same exact experience. And when they speak for the first time, and it is, I'm so nervous to be here. I'm so this is my first time, I'm so nervous. But and everybody identifies with it. Everybody understands it because it's not their first time speaking in front of a group.

Or on a Zoom call, it's their first time being real about what about who they really are. And they may have never told their family, they may have never told their friends, but they've probably never spoken about this struggle in front of a group before and in front of strangers. My God. And it's scary. But but if they've been sitting through any number of meetings, they've witnessed

Other people do what they're doing right then. And I and I did it and I was scared to death because the moment your finger's hovering over that unmute button or to raise your hand and the moderator like clicks on you to say to speak, like you everything you thought you were gonna say just vacates your mind and you may you may have accepted the Nobel Peace Prize, you know, but and but and you may be the greatest public speaker in the world, but your mind goes blank.

Frank Spinelli (48:04)

Yeah, it's true.

Ray (48:14)

And all you know to do is is throw yourself out there and say, I'm here and I showed up and I'm I'm glad you all are here. And that and you know that's sometimes all you need to do is just show up and be there and have a voice and let let people you the the best thing about reframe is when you put yourself out there, people will come to you and people will find you and people will love you for who you are.

And you will find other people who are just like you.

Frank Spinelli (48:44)

I love that. I love what you said. mean, it's worth repeating. I think a lot of people for their first time struggle because they want to say something profound, you know, they want to write it out. They want to hear it. They want to hear the music and the heavens opening up. And I love what you just said. All you have to do is come on and just say, I'm here. And I just wanted to say, hello, this was my first share. And thank you everybody for giving me the space. Like just something.

Just saying I'm here. I love that. I love that. I'm going to use that at my next meeting.

Kevin Bellack (49:17)

had I had somebody

at the end of the journaling meeting on Friday. We were right at time and they raised their hand. I was kind of rambling on about like what's going on to the rest of the today and the weekend. We got the speaker share tonight and I was doing all that and yeah and and then he he raised his hand and I'm like hey you know well I didn't know who it was at the time but I was like yeah feel free to yeah unmute and

Frank Spinelli (49:27)

Are you doing your promos?

Kevin Bellack (49:41)

and that's all they said. We're like, hey, I'm just checking. I I joined a little bit late, but I just, you know, thanks so much for this meeting. This has been great. And I just wanted to say hi and say, you know, introduce myself and say I'll be around. And and I said I threw it out to everybody. I'm like, anybody else wanna do that? Anybody else wanna come on and just say hi and break the seal for you know, a share? I also say that's a good, you know, if you wanna if you if you wanna share the first time, you know, a good meeting to do it on, the journaling meeting.

We give you we give you a topic, we give you ten minutes to write about it, and then you can just read. You don't even have to so it's like people do that a lot too, or it's like, Hey, I already have this here, it's you know written out and I can just read it. I'm just kidding. I'm serious and kidding.

Frank Spinelli (50:22)

A lot of people share

in the group meetings because they tend to be smaller. know, like 30 people you think you can manage. When you're in like a check-in, they're like 200 plus people. It's kind of daunting. So yeah, all right. So either Kevin's journaling meeting or any one of my groups. Come on down.

Ray (50:41)

I f in the men's meeting

Kevin Bellack (50:41)

But even sharing, yeah.

Ray (50:42)

too

the I found like a men's meeting started when I you know when I was on reframe and I I there was a lot of men who will show up to those meetings and say, I'm I will not share in a large meeting that these men's meetings, these small men's meetings, they're like these are

Kevin Bellack (50:44)

Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (50:54)

Right.

Yeah, no, we hear that a lot. mean, I'm sure Kevin hears it more than me, but certainly men feel much more inclined to share amongst men, you know, to feel like.

you know, especially when we talked about before with guilt and shame, you know, one of the number one reasons men feel shame is, you know, because they feel shameful about their role as father or caretaker or whatever husband, head of household. And so certainly it takes a lot of courage for them to come on and say, listen, like you said earlier, I threw away a marriage and children and, you know, but of course the inner strength is listening to other people

like yourself who are four years into this journey and everything they've gained and the insight to look back and say, yeah, I know what I did, but look where I am. So yeah, I agree. The men's meetings are great. It's really, I honestly was surprised. I don't know what I expected. I didn't think the men would be that inclined to speaking so openly and I was very humbled by it. So, I mean, it's very good. I have to moderate one soon.

Kevin Bellack (52:05)

Yeah. 'Cause I mean it is and it is less it is a smaller meeting, so I think that helps as well, right? Whenever there there's not, you know, that many people on. but yeah, finding your spot, whatever that is.

beyond

the wall the

Frank Spinelli (52:19)

So you

want to segue into what happens after you

you you look back with enough distance as to where you were and look how far you've come.

Ray (52:29)

thinking about kind of wrapping it up and maybe leaving reframe and if I needed to come back I would, but you know, he said he urged me to come up with a a plan, a long term plan that I could return if I needed to, but to know some kind of signs.

for checking myself. And so Kevin and I are both big Game of Thrones fans. And we in fact Kevin sent me a Jon Snow bobblehead for my one year sobriety anniversary. But so and I did I did that's true I did. I buried the lead. ⁓ and so

Frank Spinelli (52:48)

I like that.

Okay.

⁓ see, you did get something.

Kevin Bellack (53:01)

Yeah, see. Come on. I I I wasn't gonna say

anything, but I was hurt I was deeply hurt. ⁓ and actually I I ha I I know and I ha I have my Aria right here too because

Ray (53:09)

I'm sorry, Kevin. It's it's I can see it. It's sitting right here on my wallet.

Frank Spinelli (53:10)

my, my God. you got

a, you got, you got a parting gift for your one year anniversary. That's so nice of you. Well, we'll edit that out and we'll only talk about the wonderful gift you got from Kevin Belec, head of coaching at Reframe for your one year anniversary.

Ray (53:21)

I did, I did. I was yeah, I'm special. I'm special.

Frank Spinelli (53:34)

did you come up with your plan and what is your plan? I'm sure that listeners want to hear.

Ray (53:38)

Well, so Kevin

Kevin and I are big Game of Thrones fans and we talked about somehow we came up with the idea about having having a a creed and how Jon Snow was a watcher on the wall. And I really can't remember the genesis of any of this, Kevin, but it was the idea that

Kevin Bellack (53:56)

Yeah, it was like putting up that it was putting

up a c not no spoilers or anything, but there's in the north in Game of Thrones, there's a gigantic wall that people go up and defend. Essentially, right? That's the

Ray (54:01)

Okay.

Yes.

It's a gig you can't miss it in the show. It's a gigantic wall of ice that's not spoiling anything. And it it defends it defends the kingdom against the enemy. And John Snow, the main character, in my opinion, of Game of Thrones swears his allegiance to protect the kingdom from the enemy and he pledges his oath on this wall and on protecting the kingdom.

Kevin Bellack (54:13)

Yeah.

Ray (54:33)

And there's a whole oath that goes along with it. I've got that oath hanging on my wall still. and so my whole prevention plan was to build maintaining the wall. I'd been building the wall for for two years, and then I needed to maintain that wall. And in maintaining that wall, I have like eight or nine things here that I need to maintain, and I have like specific things written down that I need to do to maintain them.

Frank Spinelli (54:57)

You

Ray (54:59)

And so I've got fitness. I've got to maintain my fitness. I need to maintain reading, which reading is something that was very important to being sober and it's still very important to me. Meditation, my diet, and I have specifics on what I need to do in my diet, time with my family, journaling. I have contacting Kevin if things get really bad. I have ⁓ maintaining a work and home balance.

Frank Spinelli (55:06)

Okay.

You

Ray (55:29)

and maintaining a check-in with friends if I if I have trouble. but it's it's having a plan. because what what is it? Mike Tyson says that you know everybody's got a plan until you get punched in the mouth. So and so it do you still have bad days. I mean you know after two years you're still gonna have you're gonna have days where it gets really stressful. And what are you gonna do when you get punched in the mouth?

Frank Spinelli (55:43)

Right.

Ray (55:54)

And I've had days where I get punched in the mouth where I have had a 12 hour work day and then something bad happens as soon as I get home and I thought I was gonna rest and then I've got to go back to work again the next day and then I'm like, man, I sure could use a drink. Now what's my plan? And so if I'm not maintaining my diet and my my mental status and I'm not seeing my physicians like I'm supposed to, and if I'm not keeping up with my all my things that I need to.

Then all those dominoes are gonna fall and that wall is gonna fall. And that's why you just you maintain a level of stability all the time. And you always check to make sure you check in with yourself, you check in with somebody else, you check in, you check in to make sure you're you're keeping that okay because that's it's gonna happen, and it's gonna happen when you least expect. And and also and I wanna say this too, for even for people who are who are just just getting this journey started.

Like having being having a trigger and feeling a desire to drink is not a sign of weakness. It's not. That's just it just happens. And I I still have triggers and I have a desire to drink. And it's not a sign of weakness. But be being strong and is is standing up against that and looking it in the eye and saying, Not today, not today.

Frank Spinelli (57:02)

All

You

Ray (57:20)

We're

not going on to it today because we've got a wall to protect and we've got a kingdom to maintain and we're gonna do it.

Kevin Bellack (57:20)

Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (57:26)

Wow, so the take home messages come up with a plan for the long term. So the long term goal, I like that. I like that a lot. All right, I'm gonna recommend that as well. Learned a few things today.

Kevin Bellack (57:39)

Yeah. Yeah. Not today. ⁓ that will be on my Game of Thrones tattoo whenever I get it eventually. ⁓ yes. Huh? No, I still haven't. I still have the spot. It's all right, it's all lined up right here. and and just to be clear, Arya is the main character, she's the best. So just gonna throw that.

Frank Spinelli (57:43)

Ha ha ha ha.

Not today.

Ray (57:49)

You still ahead?

Frank Spinelli (57:54)

⁓ my god.

Alright, let's not have a game of Thrones argument.

Ray (58:03)

Well, it's the right thing then. It's the right thing.

Kevin Bellack (58:07)

Gathers and now my watch begins. yeah. And that's yeah, it's like coming up with that plan of what do I do if? And I and it's a good exercise to go through many times, like you know, at different points. because yeah, you're right too about the trigger of the thought, you know, a craving's gonna happen and it's

Frank Spinelli (58:17)

Yeah, I like it.

Kevin Bellack (58:26)

It could just be because you went through this set of circumstances with these people for the first time. I don't care if you if it's one year, two years, three years, four years down the road or whatever. Like, you know, it it's not a sign of weakness or that you're doing something wrong. Cause I I hear a lot of people who are like, I'm X number of you know, I've been doing so well on my moderation plan. I've been X number of days, weeks, months, whatever, alcohol free.

Why am I still getting that craving? Like a craving came up. What's wrong with me? And it's like, they're gonna come up. Like it's gonna happen. It's just a thought. Yeah. I mean, you might have been driving home and like the billboard on the side of the road, the electronic billboard changed to something that reminded you of a vacation where you got you drank a lot and boom, craving. Like it could be tot it could be totally.

Frank Spinelli (58:58)

You're human. Yeah, it's just a thought.

Well, we're being inundated constantly about messages to drink. So, I mean, it's on TV, it's on billboards, there's a liquor store. mean, you know, so it's not, it's not a far stretch of the imagination that you might think about having a drink one point in your life. It's just normal. It's normal. And it's a thought. I like that, Kevin. It's only a thought. Doesn't mean that it's a character flaw. It's not a moral failing. You're still doing the work. ⁓

Kevin Bellack (59:16)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, no. Yeah.

I've had thoughts at two years, three years, six years, you know, it's they've come up, but you get better at handling them along the way, right? It's the goal. ⁓

Frank Spinelli (59:45)

wow.

Ray (59:55)

That's right.

Kevin Bellack (59:57)

All right. Well yeah, thanks Ray for joining us today. ⁓ anything any parting words you'd like to share before we get into our nuggets?

Frank Spinelli (1:00:02)

Yeah.

Ray (1:00:07)

I think the best thing overall, I think the thing I learned two years ago when I the goal or the the long term goal I wanted was I wanted to really find out who I was. And getting free of alcohol gave me a chance to really find that out. And through therapy and being free of alcohol, I finally got a chance to find out who I really am. And I really I really like who I am.

Frank Spinelli (1:00:34)

good, I like that.

Ray (1:00:34)

I really didn't. good.

Kevin Bellack (1:00:39)

Yeah. Thanks for sharing that.

Yeah, nice work.

All right. Do we want to wrap up with some nuggets? So this is the time of the episode that will, you know, just kinda a little fun thing. Yeah, what did you learn this week? This past week, or you know, you can expand it if you need to, but could be completely off topic, not sobriety related at all, a little nugget for the listeners. I literally have no idea what I'm about to say.

Frank Spinelli (1:00:45)

Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Kevin Bellack (1:01:04)

'Cause I'm I'm I'm not I'm waiting for somebody else to go first. but I I got nothing right now. Usually it comes to me. ⁓ good. Yes.

Frank Spinelli (1:01:11)

I have something if you want me to go.

Ray (1:01:12)

Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (1:01:14)

All right,

good. So, I was reading this, this article on this Harvard flourishing, study that they're doing. that's not the point of it. What I did get was that was a takeaway that I have now going to incorporate more is let me look at it. I'm going to just read you this one line. Curiosity is not merely a cognitive virtue. It is a biological signal of vitality.

It's the organism orienting towards growth. So to sort of orient myself as I'm getting older and things are happening and moving forward, I try to remind myself to stay curious. So not just accept that things are happening or I'm reaching goals or I'm timely, but to remain curious about how life operates and how I operate in it. So that's, that's my nugget for the week.

Ray (1:02:07)

What's good? I I have one that is not peer reviewed ⁓ as well as yours. but I I'm pretty well known in my school district for making the best chocolate chip cookies and I don't make them very often, but I made some yesterday and so I handed them out and I went and took some to a district member.

Frank Spinelli (1:02:08)

Alright Ray, alright Ray, what do you got?

Hahaha!

Ray (1:02:33)

Who has never received my amazing chocolate chip cookies? And I gave her, and she had a bad year last year. And she said, I said, I I brought you some cookies. And she said, Why are you giving me cookies? And before I I even thought about what I was saying, I said, because everybody deserves cookies. Everybody deserves cookie.

Frank Spinelli (1:02:51)

Hahaha

So that's the nugget. Everybody deserves cookies.

Kevin Bellack (1:02:55)

And and well no, the nugget is is he's going to

tell us his secret recipe here today, ⁓ for his famous chocolate chip cookies.

Frank Spinelli (1:03:02)

You

I was hoping we were just going to get some chocolate chip cookies from Ray. I don't want to make them. I want you to send me some. Well, that's a good one. Everybody deserves a chocolate chip cookie.

Ray (1:03:06)

Nadia.

Kevin Bellack (1:03:08)

Yeah, I I'll let me go let me go check yeah, let me go check the front porch to see if we got I got any.

Ray (1:03:14)

It still smells like Chaka

Food Cookies in the game.

Kevin Bellack (1:03:22)

I thought you were going with cause what was the I don't have I don't have source material for this. I saw an Instagram reel and I'm going with that. But what what's the Harvard study that didn't there wasn't there Harvard study of 131,000 people that just came out or something like that? any any ideas on that, Frank? ⁓ I just saw something that said, yeah, two to three cups of coffee since you know two

Frank Spinelli (1:03:32)

Hahaha

It's not.

Yeah,

you said this earlier. What is that? I gotta look this up. So two to three cups of coffee.

Kevin Bellack (1:03:46)

⁓ two to three cups of coffee has an eight

eighteen percent I guess decrease in instances of dementia. ⁓ two to three cups, Harvard study, 131,000 people. I don't know the reference, you know, here. And this could be one of those things that I did with alcohol to justify my I found some random ass study or whatever and be like, see? this means I can keep drinking. but no.

Frank Spinelli (1:03:54)

Wow, all right, I'm gonna look that up. I'm gonna look it up.

Hahaha

Kevin Bellack (1:04:14)

but it's two to three cups, 18% reduction in that. But he the person who was sharing this was like, decaf doesn't count. It's you know, the caffeine, you need the caffeine, and more isn't better, more isn't worse, which is the words I also wanted to hear. but more wasn't better. So because yeah, I've seen things before about caffeine.

Frank Spinelli (1:04:21)

so you need the caffeine, okay.

Kevin Bellack (1:04:34)

Coffee and all that, and it's like if you have this many, it's a this percent whatever, and I'm like, I'm gonna live forever. But no, more isn't necessarily better in this case, but

Frank Spinelli (1:04:45)

Okay, so two to three cups of coffee

reduces dementia risk. Okay. All right, well, that's a nugget.

Kevin Bellack (1:04:50)

Risk eighteen percent.

Ray (1:04:53)

Coming soon, the reframe

meeting for copy addicts.

Frank Spinelli (1:04:57)

Yeah, well I would be first in that group. Alright, got all my, I got all my, yeah me too. I am trying to cut down as well. Well that was, all good nuggets. Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (1:04:58)

Yeah.

I'm actually trying to cut down my

Ray (1:05:06)

I see by your shirt but yeah you were wearing two years ago that you probably are

Kevin Bellack (1:05:10)

I I had two cups of coffee. I I changed my energy drink to something that's a little bit better. This isn't an advertisement. but yeah, I I I like a little variety. So I have, you know, this energy drink that's like, I don't know, ninety or a hundred milligrams of caffeine or whatever. And so yeah, reducing slowly the consumption. We'll see how it goes.

Frank Spinelli (1:05:31)

I don't know.

I really, when I think about this, I talked about curiosity and all I heard was everybody deserves a chocolate chip cookie and two to three cups of coffee.

Kevin Bellack (1:05:39)

Yeah.

ooh.

Frank Spinelli (1:05:41)

curious to see how this is going to land.

Kevin Bellack (1:05:43)

Yeah,

hey, be curious, not judgmental, Frank, isn't that what's that? I forget the I forget the qu the ref or the person who said that. but ooh, I wonder if dipping a chocolate chip cookie and coffee is good. Cause you know what? Changed my life and I just realized I haven't done it in a while.

Frank Spinelli (1:05:46)

Be curious. Yeah, definitely.

True,

And coffee, I was thinking that.

Kevin Bellack (1:06:07)

Didn't change my life either, I'm joking. We all we all think Oreos and milk, right? O Oreos and coffee is really good.

Frank Spinelli (1:06:10)

You

Yeah.

I think anything in coffee is good.

Ray (1:06:18)

Is it?

Kevin Bellack (1:06:19)

Yeah.

And it's like it's like it's the warm i it tastes good because it's just coffee and that. It doesn't change the taste. Yeah. But it's the it's the Ooh, yeah. Yeah, I guess, yeah. People Dunkin' Donuts. So yeah. All right. We should not have this when I didn't really eat a good lunch and dinner is still coming up. So with on that note, yeah, thanks, Ray.

Frank Spinelli (1:06:23)

Yeah, because you're melting it. right. Well, it's like putting a donut in coffee. It's amazing. Yeah, or a croissant too. With that.

Kevin Bellack (1:06:45)

Thanks, Frank. ⁓ yeah. Thanks everyone for listening. I appreciate you sharing today, Ray. and thank you all for listening to another episode of the Reframable Podcast brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you.

Frank Spinelli (1:06:45)

Yeah, thanks, Ray. Anytime.

Ray (1:06:48)

Thanks guys.

Kevin Bellack (1:07:10)

If you are enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. And I want to thank you again for listening and be sure to come back for another episode. Have a great day.