Mindful Drinking, ADHD, and Setting Boundaries: Finding Your Clarity

Join Coach Kevin, Coach Eric, and Reframer Nirvana: a married mom of four and artist from South Florida who first came to Reframe simply curious about the science of alcohol.

This episode explores what happens when awareness, not a rock bottom, becomes the turning point. You'll hear about the heavy mental load of constantly counting drinks versus the freedom of taking things one "let's see" at a time, the fear many creatives carry of making art without alcohol, and how cutting back opens up time, presence, and space for what matters most. The conversation also unpacks boundaries as self-respect, choosing relationships that align with your values, releasing shame, and why navigating change—especially with an ADHD brain—takes structure, community, and doing it your way without doing it alone.

The Reframeable podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the #1 app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. If you have a topic you'd like us to cover on the podcast, send an email to podcast@reframeapp.com or, if you're on the Reframe app, give it a shake and let us know what you want to hear.

Transcript

Kevin Bellack (00:00)

Welcome everyone to another episode of the Reframable Podcast, the podcast that brings you people's stories and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more. Because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass. This podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol.

It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. My name is Kevin Bellach. I'm a certified professional recovery coach and the head of coaching at the Reframe app.

Eric Fischer (00:38)

And I'm Eric Fisher. I'm also a coach at Reframe. I'm a certified lifestyle design addiction and performance coach.

Kevin Bellack (00:44)

Today we're joined by Nirvana Sherman. She joined Reframe over three years ago out of curiosity, wanting to learn more about the science of how alcohol affects the body.

today we're joined by Nirvana Sherman. She joined Reframe over three years ago out of curiosity, wanting to learn more about the science of how alcohol affects the body. What began as an exploration eventually led her to become alcohol free on May twenty fifth, twenty twenty three.

A married mom of four living in South Florida, Nirvana is a lifelong creative who loves learning, reading, traveling, and exploring life from every angle. Welcome, Nirvana, how are you?

Nirvana Sherman (01:23)

Very good. Thank you. So happy to be here.

Kevin Bellack (01:25)

Yeah, so glad to have you. congrats on recently hitting three years alcohol free. yeah, I want to we're just interested to hear more about your story and how curiosity, what led you to have that curiosity to learn more about alcohol and its role in your life, how it's affecting you, all that, to where you are today. What what would be a good place to start?

Nirvana Sherman (01:50)

Well, I always love science and and the brain and body and kind of learning about just emotions and you know, psychology and all these things. And while I did not while I've had bad experiences with alcohol, it didn't seem like anything out of the ordinary from like everyone I know, because everyone I know drinks and it was just like a regular part of life for so long. So I had gone out to lunch with a friend of mine and

Usually there's always like lunch with wine and he just said, No, no, I'm only drinking once a week. And so that sparked my curiosity, like, okay, why? And then he explained, he told me about the Reframe podcast. not the podcast, the app. And so I downloaded the app after that lunch out of curiosity to just he said, I just, you know, teaches you some facts every day. And so I was like, cool. I want to learn about the brain and what is going on with alcohol. So

I started logging my drinks, and that was just the beginning of a whole journey that I was never, I just never intended it to lead to being alcohol free. I wasn't even interested in cutting back. Like, I mean, everybody kind of you don't want to drink all day. but that's kind of what I didn't even realize, but I was drinking like every weekend. most times I was trying to be creative. I'm an artist, so alcohol kind of went along with sitting down and painting and getting into my zone. Like I

That I didn't even think I needed. It just became habit. That's all. So I started looking at my habits and learning the little facts every day, doing the daily tasks, and I really enjoyed it. And I was learning so much about dopamine. And one of the things that struck me was how alcohol almost like creates an artificial dopamine for something with the brain that, like, you know, your brain now wants that stronger dopamine that's like artificial. And so obviously in life,

And being a mom and trying to like just live life, it could be very stressful. And I had been living a very stressful, like rush to just kind of having breakdowns and things like that. And I was like, huh, maybe the alcohol has more to do with my body and my feelings than I realized. And so I started cutting back and I started on the cutback track. And when I counted how many drinks I was having, I was like, okay, that's more than I thought.

And I just kind of kept going and lowering it and lower it. I took I took the advice of the app that told me to cut it in half, I think, first and not to just like cut it. I wasn't looking to cut it out anyways, but just do that and and learning. I was gaining so much knowledge and I love that.

Kevin Bellack (04:05)

Yeah.

Yeah, I was wondering what you felt like when you started tracking drinks. Cause I think that can be an eye opener. some people may just know, but I think if we're not paying attention, it's easy to when we start tracking, we're like, whoa, I didn't realize I was drinking that much and some of the facts surrounding that. yeah, that's ⁓ go ahead.

Eric Fischer (04:38)

Well,

I was just gonna add into that. So you gained awareness, right? So I mean it's not so part of it was being exposed to what reframe was and then through a colleague or a friend. And then once you got in and you started to kind of play around a little bit and learned what the app was and and the dopamine and the n and the

Kevin Bellack (04:42)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (04:59)

science behind it, all of a sudden there was an awareness, especially when you started logging and it was like, my gosh, like I've been feeling okay. I'm I'm the alcohol se the wine or what have you seems to be tied to maybe some of the artistic endeavors. And then once you gained awareness and learned a little bit more about it, that's when that started to kind of the cutback track started to you started reducing, it seems like.

Nirvana Sherman (05:22)

Yeah, 'cause I was always the type that wanted like a full glass of wine. And then, you know, like if the waiter would pour like the little bit, I was like, fill it up. And I didn't realize like that's not just one glass of wine anymore. Now that that you know, the amount of ounce ounces are it's like double. It's like two glasses. So that's that awareness of, you know, my one glass of wine is not really one glass of wine. It's actually like two or maybe even two and a half. It's a big goblet. So right, the numbers, I was aware of the numbers. I was aware of physical.

effects that it could be having on like inflammation. I was suffering from like neck chronic neck pain. And it also said something about how it affects the nerve endings and that. And I was like, okay, so as I started cutting out, I started my neck started feeling better too, which was just like really a cool effect that I didn't even think that would would be the outcome. Like no doctor was like, hey, maybe if you reduce alcohol, your neck's gonna feel better. And

You know, your anxiety will improve. Like, I don't why doctors didn't suggest that.

Kevin Bellack (06:21)

Yeah. 'Cause I'm

Eric Fischer (06:21)

Doc 'cause they

don't 'cause go ahead, no, go ahead, Kevin. ⁓

Nirvana Sherman (06:23)

Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (06:24)

I was just gonna say, I

mean, it's like inflammation, right? And alcohol increases our inflammation. But yeah, doctors, I mean, that's not yes, they are I think more and more they're being taught nutrition and other things like that. But I mean, historically speaking, that probably let's prescribe something for it, right? is the not to I'm not disparaging, you know, the profession or anything. I'm just saying like that's kind of the feel of it. And

Yeah, I mean who I I don't know I'd be surprised. I would have been shocked if they did. Like, hey, maybe you should reduce your alcohol for your neck. Like I wouldn't necessarily connect those dots, right? I don't think they would. Well, especially two, if we're well, I was gonna say, well, like how how much are we telling them that you know, we're drinking too? It's like, I know I was lying. I mean, I I the rule of three, right? It's like whatever I said, you should just triple it or more. so there's that aspect too.

Nirvana Sherman (07:03)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (07:05)

No tradition.

Nirvana Sherman (07:20)

Yeah, and like who's counting? Really I really wasn't counting. It was just like however many drinks it was a day. If you go to the pool and, you know, say we we go to like a club here in Miami, we're always by the beach, a pool. So if you go and have the first drink by the at the pool, say it's eleven a.m. Like by the time you leave, six, seven PM, it could have been like seven to ten. just normal as they keep bringing them and I'm not no one's I'm I was not counting. And I wasn't and I'm also not the type of person to get overly

Kevin Bellack (07:21)

Yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (07:46)

drunk. Like I have a very high tolerance for whatever reason. I don't know. But people wouldn't see me stumbling drunk or I wouldn't be slurring. So I didn't have the effects that would normally tell someone or somebody would say, Hey, you need to stop. Like, nope. I just seem totally normal. In the days that I that I did have too much, the next day I would maybe talk to a friend about it and they say, you seem totally normal. I'm like, Yeah, but I don't I'm feeling it today. Like I was not.

Eric Fischer (08:11)

Yeah, so you're functioning. And and I think it's important to recognize as well, because people think that, you know, like like t well, take myself for as an example. I was in the hospital fighting for my life. Like that's a rock bottom that people, you know, like we hear this all the time and you hear it's you and you read it in books and you see it on podcasts and whatnot, like the rock bottom, but you didn't necessarily have a rock bottom. You got ahead of it and and you mentioned curiosity, but then once you became aware of it, it was kind of like, man, you know, I didn't realize I was having this many.

because I may have a little f brain fog in the morning, but I can kind of get through it. so you don't have to hit a rock bottom or even come to kind of come to the realization that I do have a massive problem. It can be kind of under the under the radar, under the surface of the the waves and and and once you once you take action on it and reduce the inflammation and everything else like you mentioned starts to starts to normalize and improve. Or were were there

What were some of the main so you mentioned dopamine before, which is which is interesting as well, because dopamine nowadays has been kind of it's like a it's like a fancy keyword in social media nowadays, right? But dopamine, there was a famous study whereby they they they extracted the dopamine out of a rat. So this is a rat study, and they would put the food

Kevin Bellack (09:18)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (09:28)

In its mouth and it would seemingly enjoy the food. But then they placed the food one inch from the rat's mouth and it starved to death because it didn't have enough dopamine, it didn't have any dopamine, so it couldn't move. what were some of the main, either through reframe or your or your own curiosity and always kind of that growth learning mindset, what what were a few things that you noticed as you started reducing alcohol that

that seem to kind of give you the the confidence to continue down that path, eventually going alcohol free. Sleep, energy, relationships, clear mental clarity.

Nirvana Sherman (10:05)

Yes. So I do have ADHD and and I was diagnosed as an adult. So one of the things that I started realizing is that stressful situations where before would cause lots of anxiety and panic attacks, like those situations that I was in after a while of not drinking, like I was not having panic attacks anymore. So it was like I was now having the

motivation and like the the emotional I was in a better emotional state to handle the situations. which was huge because with parenting, like I used to get anxiety before parent teacher conferences or having to go to school for anything. It was like I didn't know what to expect. And I just basically the teachers either either telling me things about my kids, like it just gave me anxiety. So I was able to show up to events without having anxiety. And so slowly it just I felt

So much more confident. I've always been a confident person. It wasn't even that I wasn't confident, but I just the anxieties was reduced so much that I didn't even I stopped taking my ADHD medicine. Not to say that it went away. And it's not like I just wanted to be completely clear and see how much I could achieve without anything. And so I started achieving the things that before I was depending on medicine and alcoholic. I I used to drink to clean.

'Cause I've learned when I was younger that hey, cleaning like helps me motivate and I can get my whole house like organized. And I stopped I stopped doing that. And I can I can clean I can cook without without drinking. I can do a lot of the regular day-to-day basis things that we need to do. And it didn't it never added anything. I thought that alcohol was adding. Like cooking's more fun with the drink. And it's like, no, it's not. Actually, I can focus on the recipe and I'm

I'm cleaning up after and I can the it's coming out, the food's coming out better. I'm present. I'm remembering it. You know, all this like my memory improved, my anxiety improved. No more panic attacks, literally in case an if it's an extreme situation, I occasionally that'll happen, but it's just rare. I don't know if that was those were some of the things. my relationships did improve as well. with my kids and being more present to them.

Kevin Bellack (12:14)

Yeah. And

Nirvana Sherman (12:14)

Yeah, spending more time quality

Eric Fischer (12:15)

Yeah, AD ADHD.

Nirvana Sherman (12:16)

put together.

Eric Fischer (12:17)

What's that?

Nirvana Sherman (12:18)

I was just saying like quality time together. Like before, if I was with my friends and we were all drinking and the kids were kind of coming to ask a question, it was just like we were focused on our own thing. But now when they talk to me, it's like I'm making eye content eye contact and I'm looking at them like really listening. My listening improved so much. I just felt like a more present person.

Kevin Bellack (12:21)

Hm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Instead of being just annoyed and trying to just here, go go take care of this or yeah, figure Yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (12:42)

Yeah, and I was and that even

that's not my personality, but I I just r now when I look back and I see the difference, I see how present I am. I didn't even realize that I was not being as present as I could have been.

Kevin Bellack (12:55)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (12:56)

Yeah, it's amazing. The the you know, we we we make a shift in our life and and and the this example is alcohol and and we start to be present and enjoy those little beautiful moments. You know, like oftentimes we sometimes think that it's gonna be a whole new different way of living. And sometimes, sometimes it is, but otherwise it's these these little beautiful moments, you know, something the kids say or or cooking dinner and having a nice conversation, and it's like you know, there's a there's a gratitude to.

Kevin Bellack (13:25)

Yeah. I think focusing on that too is i i the earlier we can do that, especially if it's foreign to us, 'cause I know I think it was foreign to me, like the whole gratitude and all that type of mental awareness. it's not something I practiced or anything like that on a regular basis or at all, right? It's not that I I did. I wasn't writing stuff down and and journaling it at all like I might more so now.

But it's because we think like, i especially if we have if we're reducing or removing alcohol because we feel we need to, because it's become an issue, because we think like, once I do that, everything will get better or it will get better, you know, things will, and it's not always the case, right? Because it can be difficult to get through some of these things in a new way without it. And so that that can be tough. But I think relying on looking at, well, where is that?

little moment where I was present when, you know, one of kids came up to me and asked a question. And, you know, those the whenever I was cooking and I was there and I could, you know, enjoy, you know, get through it quicker, enjoy it and without alcohol. But yeah, it's finding those moments, I think, is part of the practice that we need. how was it with

your friends 'cause you said like I we you drinked similar to those around you, I think, and any issues dealing with that those relationships along the way.

Nirvana Sherman (14:52)

Luckily they they were all kind of like, I didn't really realize it was a problem. Like I didn't really either. Like I it wasn't that I was anyone was looking at me like, you're an alcoholic. Even now I kind of have to my friends still like out of curiosity, like, was it that bad? I'm like, you know, if you really think about it and and I look at it, yeah, it was it was it was enough that it wasn't having me like live

Kevin Bellack (15:06)

Yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (15:19)

a present life, but with my friends, I've realized also which ones were like real friends and which ones were just kind of there for the party. And so now it's like the the relationships are more real because I'm also more present to like, what are we talking about? If the conversation is just about like you getting shots or this and that. I mean, I'm I'm getting older now. So those conversations are a little bit less, but you know, it's just like now I'm I'm focused on like the real friendships and not just

Fly by

Conversations that don't matter. Like I really want to talk about things that matter. And luckily I have like the group of friends that that are like that. and they don't really drink that much. And that's that was even one of the things I'm like, you know what? No one was really drinking like me. I thought that I thought everybody was. It looked like that. But now we spend so much time and they don't even open a bottle. And like I would have already been thinking about like, where's the drink? So where's the where's the wine for the trip? Whatever. Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (16:13)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (16:14)

I

was gonna I I was gonna ask you something similar knowing that you're down in South Florida, you know, the sun's hot and drinks are flowing and music's loud down there. And so I was curious to to know, but but you kinda just answer that, you know, because b our environment drives our behavior almost. I mean, some could argue more than anything else, even our thinking. So

I was curious to know if like just the environment living in South Florida has that been challenging in it because we get those questions all the time, like the environment and the people, places, things, all this. And does the beach and the the the the southern Florida kind of sex appeal, if you will, is that do you find that challenging at times or or does the urge not really tempt you at all?

Kevin Bellack (16:41)

Yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (16:56)

In the beginning, when I was by the pool, it would trigger that message in my brain out of habit that like you're by the pool, order the cocktail. And I really relied a lot on the non-alcoholic beers and and cocktails in the beginning because I actually was a big beer drinker. I loved all the the like brews and and the different versions of the drinks that would come out, like Oktoberfest and all that stuff. And then I just started ordering like the Corona.

non-alcoholic at by the pool and I it triggers the same whatever the little dopamine shot. it's great and I and I still I still really enjoy it. So I I'm not gonna say it didn't trigger that like craving. There was a craving there, but the craving is not actually for the alcohol. It's more for like the idea of having a drink by the pool. So ordering the non-alcoholic version, I'm still holding a glass bottle, it just like satisfied it

Eric Fischer (17:44)

Yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (17:50)

That's when that's when I realized, the alcohol wasn't adding anything. It didn't make the day at the pool any better. If anything, there was a habit of like holding something in my hand. And that's what I started recognizing. The longer, the more days that go by, and I can't even believe I'm at three years now. it's just the same, like, for example, if I go to an art show, because I that's where they have like the lots of wine. You walk, walk into a gallery show or something, it was like the wine was on the table and that's the bar.

I'm so happy ordering a sparkling water and lime and I'm getting the same feeling for me because it didn't help, it didn't make me talk more or be more social because I'm a social person, but I can understand people that are like more introverted and how they were depending and how people depend on the alcohol to kind of get them out of their shell. And I could see how that could be challenging, but I'm learning and I I think with like some of my friends that

Kevin Bellack (18:31)

Mm-hmm.

Nirvana Sherman (18:41)

You gotta the the self-confidence has to kind of you can become more self-confident to deal with social situations as you remove the alcohol because the anxiety gets less. So I don't know if that makes sense, but it's like more and the more and more you get away from the alcohol, the more you realize like you can rely on your own on your own self to to interact instead of having an external motivator.

Kevin Bellack (18:54)

Yeah.

Yeah. It's something you can work on too, right? I mean, yes, extreme social anxiety and things like that, you know, can be difficult. But I always thought I was an extrovert and then I was I realized I was an extrovert, if I had an alcohol. I'm typically an introvert. I can be extroverted if but again it comes at a cost and I just you have to I think manage that.

I was curious your thoughts on the creative side of it and if you felt it didn't sound like maybe you were were as beholden to like I need this to be creative. but I hear that a lot from whether it's musicians or artists or you know, like I I need I don't because maybe I've never done it without. And so, or it's been years or decades since I've done it without alcohol.

And it's just my process. And if I take that away, does it go away? what are your thoughts on that?

Nirvana Sherman (20:00)

That's been the one area that I will say is kind of the biggest challenge. I had never really been creative without using something and and my creativity has reduced not my creativity, like I'm creative in all ways, but like say sitting down to actually make a painting since I quit has well, I also closed my studio because

My studio, I've related to like drinking. And so like I would go to the studio and without it. Point is like, that has been the biggest challenge because I have not gotten into the same headspace.

had never experienced create being creative without drinking or doing something. And I have since felt that challenge. And I'm working through it by doing creativity in other ways. So I started like collaging. I do digital.

Like the little digital animations. whereas it's less of the fine arts. I'm still trying to be creative, but I am getting to that point where I'm like, okay, I really need to make more time for my creativity. Cause when I was drinking, I had my studio and I would get up to get to the studio and have undivided attention on only painting. And I think that the alcohol.

It's like sometimes I would drink and then I would end up not making anything anyways, or it would just be not what I wanted to create. So I think that's just an artist struggle in general. That's what I'm trying to like realize. I think that artists are gonna struggle sometimes to be creative with alcohol or with the drugs or not. I can still get in that space, but I also have four kids and like I have to think, what is it? Is it that I remove the alcohol or is it that I'm focused on my family a lot more now and giving them so much more time? So that's why I'm not as not as like making as much art.

I'm kind of that's that's my that's where I'm being introspective now. Like where's my creativity gonna come from? I don't want it to come from drugs and alcohol. Actually, I think whenever it gets to the point where I'm gonna make my like big, you know, whatever masterpiece, it's gonna come from my pure soul, not affected by by the drugs or whatever it was. Like ADD medicines, for example, when I was taking it, I was I was able to focus a lot better and and maybe make art, but I'm not gonna say that it was great art.

Kevin Bellack (21:40)

Yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (22:04)

I mean I liked it. People liked it, but I'm happy that whatever I'm gonna create is coming from an unaffected part of my brain and soul.

Eric Fischer (22:14)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that does happen. That that does happen. You know, I've I've I was on the film side working with actors a lot. And when they and and then there's music in that as well. And I was in rehab with a with a musician who who I stay in touch with. And he that you're right, that is that is something that you hear of quite a bit. Quite a bit. those two are tied intimately together. But I will also say that the people that I've been around in my life that have overcome a addiction.

Kevin Bellack (22:15)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (22:42)

it may take a little bit, but it does it does kind of come back and recalibrate in a different way for the for the people that I'm thinking about off the top of my head. So it it comes back. But that's interesting as well. So you're wrestling with, okay, I'm more present. I have all these, I have four four young humans that I'm taking care of. I'm more present. And so that's a valid point, right? Because it's like it time and attention and then inspiration.

are kind of commingled in that in that world of parenting and then your artistry as well. And so that's but you're finding it in other places to exercise that out, it seems like.

Nirvana Sherman (23:21)

Yeah, I I feel that I was giving more time to like recreation before and while I've I've I feel like I'm a good mom and I I was present, but like now I'm really present. Now I'm really there. So I'm I'm happy to like maybe the the art could wait and I'm okay with that. I'm not feeling like, now I'm now I'm neglecting my art. Like I'm like, you what? This is important. My kids are they're

Nine, thirteen, fifteen, and the oldest one's twenty-two. But like they need me right now. And and I know I'll get back to the creative side. And and actually the creatives meeting on Reframe has been amazing because the art that I have made has been on the creatives meeting, which is so cool. So like that's one of the things I love about Reframe. When I joined, I used to run a book club. So like book book clubs were amazing. It was a place where I would go and then like the brewery sponsored it. So they would like send beer and then we would just like

drink and read books. But when I joined Reframe, I'm like, okay, now I have the book club. And then the Creatives meeting came. I'm like, now I have the Creatives meeting. So the things that I used to do with drinking or at a place with with drinks, like I could now do at home. It was it's great. I'm so happy and so grateful for Reframe.

Kevin Bellack (24:34)

Yeah, I remember

would be like I I was definitely there letting people know I'm like everybody here is creative. Let's all say it together. We're all creative. But I loved, yeah, I remember some of your art and you sharing that. And that's yeah, just having a space like that.

I think with with a lot of things, it's we just need to do it, which sounds simple and it's simplistic, but it's like, how can I just practice doing this? And because we've if we've especially we've done it for so long a certain way, with alcohol, without alcohol, with you know, whatever the case may be.

It's like we have to learn to maybe do it differently. And it's not gonna necessarily be the exact same. That doesn't mean it's worse. it's just different. And it can be awkward at first. But yeah, I think just finding ways to show up in this new in a new way. I mean, it's

do at that point? was there anything different or yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (25:33)

Okay. right. Well, I started off on the cutback and then after about ninety days, I realized how much effort I was putting into counting. And it was like so much time spent like calculating, entering, and then or like whether I didn't stay in the number that I wanted, it was like causing me a lot more kind of like little disappointments on like, I said I was gonna have twelve and then now I'm at now I had fifteen. It's like it just was so much attention being

Kevin Bellack (25:38)

Yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (26:00)

driven towards counting that I'm like, I'm just gonna there was a dry July challenge, and that's I was like, I'm gonna try this dry July. And that's how it started, only 30 days. And at the end of the 30 days, I was like, you know what? I think I could keep going. And so I just kept going. And then I wanted to share in the 90 day meeting. So that was like the goal that I set. I'm gonna make it to the 90 day. And then it just kept going and here I am literally three days later, I mean three years later, like with

without having the intention of going alcohol free, but I f just started feeling so good. So what I did was a lot of like replacing activities that I where I used to drink. Like I I would say, I started exercising more. I added well, I always loved yoga, but I had stopped going to yoga a lot. So then I added yoga. I added the reading back to my life 'cause I that's one I used to read so much before I started like drinking more habitually and like started reading more.

replace like every time I would I I love the meetings, like listening to other people's stories also helped me realize that like the drinking was was having more of an effect on my life through hearing other people's shares. I was like, I related to so many of the shares. so being in the meetings like really helped me just continue.

Because also you hear people's rock bottoms, like you're talking rock bottoms. You hear the rock bottoms. Like I don't wanna get to that point where it would be a rock bottom. So just by eliminating it, it it made me know like I know that I will not have a rock bottom. I know that I will not have like my anxiety, I don't think is gonna come back like it ever was, because now I've removed like a main factor of of it. which you'd think was like the stress, but it wasn't the stress. Like the alcohol actually made the anxiety more.

Eric Fischer (27:45)

Mm-hmm.

Nirvana Sherman (27:45)

worse.

Kevin Bellack (27:46)

Yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (27:46)

⁓ so I'm just more a lot more intentional in my life now and being intentional, like like joining the creatives meeting is when I'm creating the intention to be creative. And then the creative creativity comes like I think with anything when you're intentional, like something opens up in the universe for it to actually happen. So I was intentional about not drinking but at one day at a time. Like I was like let me see 30 days. Let me see 90 days. Like it's it was still and it's still it's still hard to imagine

Kevin Bellack (28:09)

Yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (28:14)

my whole life, but not really, because I don't miss it. But I had ideas of like being in Europe and drinking, for example. like, now could I go to I I just had to replace like how much I'm enjoying my feeling now and not wanting to mess with that. I don't wanna put anything in my body that's gonna mess with my intentionality, my my peace, my my life right now.

I don't need it. I don't know if that answered your question.

Eric Fischer (28:43)

You No, no,

Kevin Bellack (28:43)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (28:44)

it did it's be yeah, be beautifully said. I mean, when we try to so the brain always wants what it cannot have. And then so when we say, Okay, well I can only have this amount and then if we go above that, there's the shaming and the guilt, but the cognitive load you mentioned,

Kevin Bellack (28:44)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (29:01)

You know, always thinking about it. It's front of brain all the time. And that's challenging for a lot of folks. But then once you kind of remove that and said, Hey, the 30-day challenge, let's give that a try. Let's see. You know, that kind of reminds me of Mel Robbins let's see. I'm I'm sorry, let them. That book, there's a there's kind of like a let's see to it. Let's see. You know, I'm it maybe, maybe not, but

Kevin Bellack (29:16)

But yeah.

Eric Fischer (29:24)

Let's give it a shot and then see how I feel. And then it's ninety days and then it's this and then it's that. And now it's three years. And so I I'm a so so you so you recognize the fact that this is taking up way too much energy from my brain to manage, micromanage the amount of drinks. And so and and that's what kind of prompted you to kind of take a step back and just go one day at a time.

Nirvana Sherman (29:49)

Yeah, that was the switch where I was like, you know what? Removing this is actually opening up time and and freedom in my brain. So like even when I would go to say the my first like sober weddings, I realized how much time I was saving, not having to wait at that bar at the line with everybody or like the rodeo. We'd go to the rodeo in Colorado. Like that's like the big drinking place. And the amount of time I would spend waiting in line for drinks was so much. And I was like,

Eric Fischer (30:07)

Mm-hmm.

Nirvana Sherman (30:15)

Like removing the alcohol removed freedom of sp it made space. It made space for not waiting lines as much, not thinking about it. yeah, so then that's where I was like, Yeah, let me just try not drinking and and keeping that space and seeing what I can add in it. Yeah, it was a cognitive load for sure. That's that's what it was. And I needed to have as much like brain space for just my kids and my family and myself and yeah.

That was it was so free. It was like freeing.

Kevin Bellack (30:45)

Yeah, it's like e easier that I always thought of it as I there's one rule versus fifty. Like it's just don't drink instead of okay, it's Thursday, so I can drink this much, but it's you know, there's a game on, so I can up that a little bit, or you know, there's all these like little things that over time like layered on top of each other because I said I was only gonna drink this much on Thursday, but there's this going on, so I had to tack on a new rule or

Eric Fischer (30:45)

Yeah, I'd love it.

Kevin Bellack (31:13)

You know, and it got to the point where I I said, like, why am I trying so hard to keep this in my life? Because it it was that cognitive load that just wears you out. And and I think a lot of times too, we're it we wear ourselves out because we're bad at setting proper targets and expectations of ourselves. We try and go too far in in instead of meeting ourselves where we are, and then that like Eric you mentioned, like the shame comes in. If I said I'm gonna have

This many this week and I have more than or today, whichever. You know, there's that feeling too. So I think setting that, okay, 30 days. Let's let's put a target down and see what happens. Don't have to make decisions, you know, yet on that, but giving yourself that little bit of space to just breathe with it and be with it is I think a good a good way of going about it as you know, if if you're unsure of where

you know, ultimately this is gonna go. Some people are like, no, I need to stop and that's my goal. But I know that wasn't my plan in the beginning for sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's good.

Nirvana Sherman (32:18)

Yeah, I I like the let's see kind of what you just said because it was like, let's see what it

feels like to go 30 days and and ninety. And you know, it's just then I was like, there's a one year plus meeting. Let's see if I can get it was literally like, let's see if I can get to the one year. And then the time really starts going by so much faster. Like I the days fly by. It's like in the beginning I remember how hard it was just to get to day twelve. And I had never imagined it would be hard to go twelve days without drinking up 'cause it was just so normal. So it

I was like experiencing the whole the whole like cutback as I thought that I could say, hey, I'm gonna go 30 days and it would not be a big deal. and then I remember day seven, day eleven, day twelve, like even thinking about it to what I was doing and like, man, this is like harder than I thought. so it was a relief once the days started flying by and then getting closer to the year. And then like I said, I can't believe.

Three years already passed by. I mean time goes by fast anyways, but it's that it's that let's that curiosity about let's see what life feels like without adding drinks to it. And it was like such a pleasant surprise. And like you were saying earlier though, not not that there's not situations that are hard and challenging because it it is hard to face everyday issues without having some kind of coping mechanism. So that's where like the exercise and the yoga, like when I go to yoga, I feel like I had therapy, like once I walk out.

Kevin Bellack (33:14)

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (33:40)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Nirvana Sherman (33:40)

It's I needed

to do something else and replace it. Otherwise I will get caught in this in this kind of struggle of like dealing with emotions and not knowing how to process them, which has been I think that's just the human condition. You know, we all have to like learn how to process our emotions, but at least I'm able to see them now and like pay attention to them. They're not always easy, but looking at it and it gives me a confidence to know that I'm at least I'm I'm not numbing it.

Eric Fischer (33:55)

Yeah.

Mm.

Nirvana Sherman (34:10)

Like it's still hard, but I'm not numbing it with something because then it does it's not like it goes away. So you're able to get through the feelings without just pushing them down and pushing them further and further away.

Kevin Bellack (34:13)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (34:22)

Yeah, and they change, feelings change. You know, Tom Tom Hanks, I was watching an actor kind of round table, and he said, you know, like this is such a beautiful moment. And it's a pleasure to be with everybody and we're joy and sharing this time together. And and the way that we feel right now when this podcast is over, we'll change. And the way we go to bed this evening and how we feel will change.

and then and then any everything has an opposite, right? So good, bad, right, wrong, sun comes up, sun goes down, God, if we're a believer, the devil, etc. And so when we say no to alcohol, we in turn are saying yes to all these other things that you mentioned, like presence and earned confidence and time with the family, present time with loved ones, taking care of our body.

and you said that so well, and so like you said, see clearly, right? Because what our eyes look at, we move towards or away from. There's not much that's neutral. And so when we sift through the clutter and the fog and start to see clear, then we know what what aims to you know, direct our focus and attention to. and I think it's also interesting as well. A lot of people, especially on the ADHD side, all three of us are here together with ADHD. So that's kind of cool.

But you know, we we 'cause Kevin, you have ADSD, right or no? You do, yeah, yeah. We talked about this, yeah. ⁓ you know, we think that we w internally with the way our brains work, we know that we have that kind of extra gear, you know, that a lot of folks don't have. And that's hard for people to understand if you don't if you're not there. But everyone here, like that extra gear, and that we think we remove alcohol out of the picture.

Kevin Bellack (35:40)

Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Eric Fischer (36:02)

That we can fundamentally change that about ourselves, that inner burn, that fear of failure, like a fundamental fear of failure. So we need something to run from and something to run to. But you found that in the health and wellness, being a parent, on the art side of life as well. And so when would you say that that is there one piece of your life that you have you have r kind of rechanneled the energy into that you feel like you mentioned yoga being being therapeutic for you? Is there

Is it the health and wellness? That's what I find often with a lot of folks with ADHD when they quit the the addiction, alcohol alcohol, opioids perhaps, et cetera. it's the body. It's that it's bra it's like pushing that body to the extreme. There's something about us that enjoys the pain of it.

Kevin Bellack (36:43)

Yeah.

What's that extra dopamine right too? We need it somewhere. Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (36:50)

Well yeah, yeah. That's that's what I'm getting. That's kind of what I'm getting at. Yeah. I Nirvana, have you felt have you found

that as well? Is are you similar that way? Or is it something else?

Nirvana Sherman (36:58)

So I feel I think prioritizing myself in general helped me focus my attention towards my body and my wellness. Like I've I'm a healthy person, but I wasn't taking action in actually like going to the gym to work out. you know, like so I was able to channel kind of just channeling my time better. It that led towards wellness and and the yoga, but

I'm trying to think because the one thing that improved with even my ADHD was like my ability to schedule things for myself. Like even just making time for meetings and making time for a yoga class and making time for the gym. Like I'm scheduling. I wasn't just flying by the what is it, see to my pants or whate whatever it is. Like I kind of just used to go through life like always in a rush, always just late. And now that I have this

channel of clarity. It's like, all right, I'm gonna make time to go to my yoga class and I'm scheduling things out. And like that was really, really hard for me before. but I also actually I'm just just remembered like one kind of download I got about my myself that helped me become sober, like stop drinking alcohol was that I matter.

Like I got this message, like I matter more than the drinks, and that's what I use for out for working out too. Like when I'm trying to put other things before my say my my health. I'm like, no, I matter. I need to get myself to the yoga class. Like my kids can wait or whatever it is. So I'm choosing myself and that's where I focus basically that's where I I channeled to myself, you know, like where I put everything else before me before.

Eric Fischer (38:38)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Bellack (38:39)

How difficult was that with especially with, you know, four kids and and things like that, like to make that shift to okay, I gotta take care of everybody to no, I matter, you know, you could do the cliche of put your oxygen mask on first and all that stuff, which is true, but yeah, how does that shift? How difficult was that for you?

Nirvana Sherman (39:00)

Yeah, it was hard because I never even I didn't know boundaries. I didn't know what boundaries were. So that was another thing that on the Book of Boundaries that we did at the book club. That was my first time ever looking at boundaries as a healthy thing, not like a thing to to stop whatever was going on. It was it was like, boundaries are healthy for me and I didn't have any for myself. So it was hard with family kind of like.

Kevin Bellack (39:07)

Book club, yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (39:24)

saying pause to things like yeah I can do this later. I can't do this. I can't do that right now. But I will. Like it's just learning the ver vocabulary, even to communicate the boundaries to my family and to myself. it was hard. But now I realize how healthy boundaries are. And I'm so happy that I that I realized that. But that was it was a challenge for me just because

I grew up very like free spirited and my parents were very free spirited and we didn't have rules growing up and they weren't telling me like what to do. So I didn't know how to even tell myself what to do. So that's that's I have to tell myself like what I need to do. I need to make the time to do the things for myself. Yeah, it was it wasn't it's it was not easy and it's still not an you know, I've gotten a lot better at it, but there's still more things like like the creative time. I still want to

add more time for myself to be creative. so I'm still always learning in the boundaries. Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (40:18)

Yeah. Think I

don't know. I I feel like I'm always gonna be learning that. that's one of those things that's just always gonna be I don't know. Some people are really good at it, some people are really bad at it. I'm definitely in the middle, just lifelong learner on that. But Book of Boundaries by Melissa Urban is is definitely a good one.

Eric Fischer (40:29)

Yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (40:33)

I think the AD. Yes.

Eric Fischer (40:37)

Yeah, I d I haven't read that. I haven't read that one.

Nirvana Sherman (40:37)

That was so good. Well, and I listened to the audiobook. And so the audiobook, she gives examples and you can hear what it sounds like to set the boundaries. So I'm glad I listened to it and didn't just read it because I didn't even know what boundaries sounded like.

Kevin Bellack (40:38)

Yeah.

Yeah.

I didn't think I listened to it too. I didn't think about that from the standpoint of why that might have been even more effective. Yeah, that's a good point.

Eric Fischer (40:59)

Well, because I g I people think that they have to set like a meeting with somebody else and say, Look, here are my boundaries and if you like here's the consequence, it's like it they don't have to be like that. They they they don't have to

Kevin Bellack (41:04)

Yeah. Yeah.

And the fact

that bo we we can set boundaries and that's all we can do, right? It's like we can't like once it's you know, if I set a boundary with you, I can't control what you do. so I kinda have to stand firm with what I said and and you know, if you don't like it, you know, I don't know. That's not my I I can't change you I mean

I can try and make you understand more why it's important to me or something like that. But some people just are never gonna accept it and we have to be okay with that too.

Eric Fischer (41:44)

Well, that goes back to your earlier point, Nirvana, with like some of the friendships got were have have taken a different shift and they've been reformed. And then some people have maybe gone away or be or become a little bit more distant because you're take you're being intentional taking care of yourself first, which says, like, look, here's a world that I'm living in right here, and the people that I really love, the closest people are inside of the circle. And so if you're on the perimeter or outside of that.

I you know, there's only so much back Kevin back to what you're saying, there's only so much I can do with this, right? And so sometimes those relationships take a they they're they're they're shape shifted in a in a natural and organic way. Have you have you found that to be true for yourself as you've gone through this journey over the past three years? Like some of your friendships have have been redefined and some people you're not as, you know, not as close to nowadays.

Nirvana Sherman (42:33)

Yes, and I I think that's because I look at boundaries kind of like respect. So I respect myself and then in the in if there's people who I was close to that I see are not maybe respecting themselves, then that's not also learned about values on on reframe. Like I'm I'm closer with people who share the same values. And so I value respecting myself and my body, for example. So if if

There's people around me that are not using some tools and they're not respecting themselves or or say my time or the or even their time. Like that's where I'm that's where I'm saying, like, I want people who share my values. And so now that I've defined my values, I can set boundaries and and and c and say them like you don't have to say, here's my boundary, like you were saying. Like you just it comes out through through respect. Like this boundaries kind of equate to respecting.

yourself. And that's where I didn't realize that I wasn't really respecting my time. I wasn't respecting my body as far as like actu making sure I had time for exercise. Like that was disrespecting myself. so yeah with the relationships I'm just more choosy now. I want people in my life who are like at my level, who are doing things that are healthy. So and I'm not judging like I and I'm trying not to judge like not putting people down for their choices.

But yeah, if you want to be in my circle, I also want to be picky with who's in there and what we're doing. Like what like or go back to in the beginning, like what are we talking about? Are we talking about like shots at the bar or like the drinks you're gonna order or what you're gonna, you know, what what table you're gonna get at a club or something? It's like that's not really it's it's just not giving, it's not feeding my soul. And that's I I really wanna have.

Eric Fischer (44:02)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Nirvana Sherman (44:21)

That's that's where I'm just a very creative person, but I love talking about like science and the brain and things like that. Like that's what I want to talk about. That's where I'm just my time is im is important so that we can enjoy and grow. And so I want people that are growing around me.

Eric Fischer (44:36)

Yeah, yeah. So you're surrounding yourself with people who are already at your level or or where it is that you're looking to go. and and I heard an interesting right. So we want to be we want to surround ourselves with people who are already where we are and are looking or and or looking to be up here, right? That's how we can grow. which means we're we're not talking about the shots. Who was it? There was a fan famous person, that's subjective, but

Kevin Bellack (44:36)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (45:01)

It may have been Denzel Washington. he said small thinkers talk about pe talk about people, medium thinkers talk about places, and great thinkers talk about ideas. And so when we remove alcohol, I've found also that

what it is that we're interested in talking about deepens into the science and the and the philosophy of life. But the idea of what it what it is that we want to do, where it is that we want to go, what kind of adventures and voluntary responsibility do we want to take on. And so that seems like that was one of the major or one of the big shifts in your life that supported that growth longer term was was reshaping some of that over the course of time, who it is that you're around.

Nirvana Sherman (45:45)

Yeah, and that's one of the things I love about the meetings. I feel like the people that are on the reframe meetings in a it's like we're all trying to better our lives. So already right there there's there's a level of of growth. And so I that's I I I you know, made some friends through reframe on that we were all

like women's group to where we're all just try we had we had the fitness challenge. That's where I learned about the seventy five hard, like all these things, like people trying to better their lives. So naturally it just put me in this space with like minded thinkers. no matter what we were struggling with. so yeah, I it it it just through through reframe alone, like it put me in the space to be with people who are like minded, which was so cool. And yeah.

Kevin Bellack (46:32)

Yeah.

Find your people, right? That's what common phrase the I got this is what I got, Eric. Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people. No, we got we got famous proverb, popularly attributed to Eleanor Roosevelt, but originated in a nineteen one Charles Stewart autobiography recounting historian Thomas Buckles.

Eric Fischer (46:45)

yeah, there it is. Yeah. Was that Denzel? Okay.

Kevin Bellack (47:00)

Henry Thomas Buckle's work. So but there Denzel, ⁓

Eric Fischer (47:02)

And I here I am quoting Dead Zell Washington. He was probably

Nirvana Sherman (47:05)

Well no

sorry.

Kevin Bellack (47:08)

but there's all kinds of pictures on here with Eleanor Roosevelt on it too, which apparently are aren't accurate either. But that's don't I mean Chat GPT or whatever the Google AI is, Gemini, whatever, is that's that's its answer. So but I like that.

Eric Fischer (47:21)

Okay, all right. Well we can take that maybe.

Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (47:25)

Great minds discuss

ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people. Yeah. And ideas that you're interested in too. And and like you said, like being in a space where and that's I think one of the nice things about Reframe too is like the different meetings and the different groups in the forum and all that, you can find people doing something interesting that you like. Right.

to say all the time. depends on your likes and dislikes, I guess. but you know, there's opportunities there in a larger group like that than just in person, which is nice. And you but you can still have meetups in person as well.

Nirvana Sherman (48:03)

Yeah, I've I've had a couple meetups. I mean, you have to seek it out with like with anything in life. Like you have to kind of get yourself out of I had to get myself out of my comfort zone and sort of like post something on the forum and and then meet like the women who were moms and sober moms. That was one of my things. Like I felt like I needed moms to understand what it was like to parent without drinking. So I had to seek out a group of moms because some of the shares were like, just go to sleep.

Kevin Bellack (48:06)

Yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (48:30)

Or or like some of the coaches would say, you know what, just go to sleep. And I'm like, I can't just go to sleep when I'm having a craving or when it's when it was in the beginning, when it was getting hard. So that's what also pushed me to find like more people who like moms could understand. So I had the moms group and that just helped me so much.

Kevin Bellack (48:31)

Yeah.

Yeah. And I yeah, I know in meetings I try not to be that I don't know about you, Eric, but like when I'm answering somebody, I try not to definitely be that like, just do this. Anytime I'm about to say just, it's like shut up and be be more broad. because there it's not that simple, right? It's never just. you know, we have to fit these things into our own lives and and what that looks like. So yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (49:12)

And you

can't cater every single person that's on the meeting also. So I never took it as like, hey, you I don't fit. That's I just said, hey, I need to find a more specific fit.

Kevin Bellack (49:17)

Yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (49:22)

is so cool. Like the parenting meeting is so helpful.

Kevin Bellack (49:25)

you're coming in and being like, Hey, it'd be awesome if we could do this. And you know, if we can if we can support it, we're gonna wanna add it in

like if you want

once and nobody said anything. It's like, okay, did you post the second time? How about a third time? Like, you know, did you comment on

you know, put yourself out

Like you kind of have to branch out a little bit or or put

I I I wouldn't be one that shares definitely right away in meetings if I joined reframe today. And if this was like when I was starting

Eric Fischer (49:57)

that would have been me. That would have been me too. Yeah. Especially in the throes of it. ⁓ yeah. it's pro it's being proactive, you know, putting yourself on the edge. That's where we grow. One foot, one foot in order, one foot in chaos puts us on the edge. And that's that's that anxiety associated with that is our brain's way of saying, brain and body's way of saying you're in the right place at the right time. So lean in. Take your time, be intentional, start very small, tiny, tiny, small.

Kevin Bellack (50:01)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (50:26)

but lean in, lean in a little bit at a time. ⁓ what's yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what you that's what you're doing. You're you're you're you know, you're you're that entrepreneurial

Nirvana Sherman (50:29)

Yeah, and to like push ourselves.

one of the things I try to pay attention to is not believing all the stories that we have about what we sh what life should look like. And I think that's what holds people back when we compare to, you know, you might hear somebody share that they're on like a hundred and something days and then be like, you know, I should be there. So it's like these ideas that we we pressure ourselves with what things should look like. And it's not gonna be like that for everybody. Like we all have our own path, but

definitely like seeking support in whatever way. In like if we're if we're having it, if we're struggling and we need some support, like it takes the extra step to just reach out or get a coach. Like I I had got a coach on reframe, and that was also really helpful. Just even if it's one session, like just kind of talking. and sometimes we just get stuck in our heads on like what.

what we think we should be doing. It's like just take it one day at a time. And that's another I mean, it might be cheesy, like one day at a time is is true because it's so much pressure if you think of your whole life. And like, I'm gonna quote you, Well what was it? Let's see. Let's see what happens if we get a coach or let's see what happens if we post on on the forum or, you know, all these little steps that are so like they could really take you somewhere that you never imagined.

Eric Fischer (51:44)

Mm-hmm.

Nirvana Sherman (51:55)

I didn't try to get sober like I didn't even think I needed to. And like, hey, how cool that I just was curious and and took that little next step and yeah, posted on the on the forum. I didn't even know there were meetings in the beginning. When I found the meeting, it was like out of curiosity, just flipping through the the app. I'm like, there's meetings. Who knew? And that was that was opened up a whole different like my life literally changed from finding the meetings.

Eric Fischer (52:18)

Hmm.

Yeah, think about that, right? Just exposing yourself, taking taking what your friend said seriously with some curiosity and just saying, Hey, I'm gonna check this out. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see what this whole reframe thing's about. And then before you know it, boom, it's kind of like sticky. You know, you find yourself showing up a little bit, and then before you know it, you find some coaching, you find you like you explore, and it helps change our life.

But we're the ones taking action, you know. What I what I took away from that piece right there is the fact that you discarded you you you no longer you no longer s were believing things that you should do, which is external or perceived to be doing based on the outside world. and then you kind of took the reins back, the control and the power back and said, Okay, I'm gonna do it my way.

And let's give it a shot. and it worked because I because you're you're right. I mean, we we all live in an unc so 95% of our decisions are unconscious. And what we're all talking about here is sliding over into that five percent of of conscious, intentional, contemplative decision making. And and that's hard. And and that's hard because there's a

there's a waking up moment. Did you feel like at some point in time, like Carl Jung says, until you make the unconscious conscious, it'll steer your life and you'll call it fate? do you have a moment where you were like, my gosh? Like that I've been doing it wrong. Now I'm starting to do it right, and the boats l left the dock, and now I'm the captain of my own ship sailing on the high seas as I see it. Did you have this moment of like boom?

Nirvana Sherman (53:56)

Yeah.

Well, remember I think it was maybe my first share when I had that moment of like realizing, like my whole life I've been looking at it one way and thinking I was living kind of in like just when it came when I realized what I was doing with the alcohol that it was like, actually it was a problem. I remember sharing and crying my eyes out because I I was so shocked. When it just like I had this clear vision of like, wow, things are things were not as good as they

seemed. And so then that I shared. I cried my eyes. I don't think I can get my words out. but after that it was like the the opening for new things and just one thing I wanted to add about what I learned and or what I think would be helpful is

To to let go of the shame too, because when I saw it clearly, I kind of looked back and I was like, my God, like as a mom, I I haven't been present as as I wanted to be. Like I thought that I was present, but I really wasn't. So that that stirred up all these feelings of shame too on my on like just how how much time say my kids were, you know, growing up or I missed things or the things that I missed. And just letting go of the shame also and be like, I'm here now, and I have my whole life ahead of me and I could like let me just

Be present now, but like not feeling bad. Cause I think a lot I hear a lot of people sharing and they they feel really bad for the mistakes they made and things. And that's like using that to just drive you instead of feeling bad about the past. Like it's okay, you know, like forget about it and just every moment you can make a different choice. And then from that moment that I've had that clarity that, you know what, I want to live different. I just went full force and and

Kevin Bellack (55:26)

Yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (55:33)

kinda just made different choices and little by little it it added up to where I'm at now, which I'm very grateful for.

Kevin Bellack (55:38)

That's awesome. Yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (55:39)

So, like, no shame, you know, because that's I think

Eric Fischer (55:41)

Yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (55:41)

that's

huge for people, like that's part of the society too. Like, we're shamed. Like it goes back to what I said about not believing where we should be, like, because there's these standards that have been set up for us in in life. Like people think, they should be married or they should have a certain job or you should be a certain place in life. And like that is so harmful if we live with those ideas holding us back. Just like just I don't know, erase it, start with the blank page.

Kevin Bellack (56:07)

Yeah. I mean, there's no get rid of the timeline, right? I mean it's made up. It's yeah, what was I I was I don't know when I was diagnosed with ADHD at 42, I believe it was forty two. I s restarted my career at 42. Like there's all these things that I was like, I should be I shouldn't be doing this. Or, you know, and like you said, the shame I think that goes along too with that.

Okay, now if I'm not drinking or if I'm cutting back, I need to focus on the things that I was missing before. And I can't do it's selfish if I take care of myself, like you were talking about before. Like I matter, I should take care of myself. and I hear people saying about like, well, that feels selfish to me and all that. And I'm like, Well, what were you doing before? Like, wasn't that a bit selfish too? Like, not in a bad way. I'm not shaming you. It's like, you know, when we but when we look at it, it's like by doing

this for myself, I'm being more present overall. And yes, shame and guilt and regret. I mean, the only good thing about any of that in my opinion is like what we do with it now. Like, cause we all have it. We all have it from the past. It's like, but how can I use that moving forward to change no matter how slowly that goes.

Sorry, just went off on a tangent there.

Eric Fischer (57:23)

No,

Nirvana Sherman (57:23)

Yeah,

Eric Fischer (57:23)

it was good. It was good.

Nirvana Sherman (57:23)

it's I mean it's yeah, it's it's good stuff just 'cause people have to like talk about going on a tangent. You kinda have to go on a tangent when you want to change your life and when you want to cut something out. Like you you need to create a new tangent. Like go with the tangent. Like it's o you know, don't let it block you.

Kevin Bellack (57:32)

Like that. I like that.

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (57:38)

Yeah, there is a there you're yeah, that's that that's really good. And and Kevin, you said it well with alcohol addiction, is extremely selfish. And so it right, I mean, just by definition it has selfish tendencies to it. And then on the other side, treating yourself as a best friend.

Kevin Bellack (57:39)

Like that.

Eric Fischer (57:58)

And that's that it could be journaling, it could be positive affirmations in the mirror, singing it to yourself in the shower. I mean, thinking positive thoughts. but doing it your way, the autonomy. You know, like you read a bunch of these psychologists and philosophers, and they say, well, the human, the human condition is always incrementally moving towards autonomy and is always in a constant t state of development.

as it faces certain challenges throughout life, from birth all the way through. and and I think you said that really well. Both of you guys did, in terms of like doing it your way. And because you're doing it your way, taking care of yourself, those it those that you love get to reap the benefits. They get to reap that all the benefits of being present,

Better educated in the space, healthier body, healthier mind. and that's the way it should be. Because Johnny Depp said also, like everybody feels like they need to stand in line with the person in front of them. Because most people want to be in the middle of a the middle of the herd with their head in the sand. And why who can blame them? Because they're it's safe right there. But when we start thinking outside of the box and changing, we exit that tribe.

And and then he goes, Well, if you want, if you want that for yourself, that kind of life, I wish you the best. I'll be somewhere on the other side. And when we become conscious, like you mentioned, you had this moment of like, whoa, this has been, you know, I wasn't, I I realized my drinking patterns differently than I did before. and there were tears associated with that, which are very important to kind of side asterisk is the the healing nature of a really good cry. It's very good for us.

Kevin Bellack (59:37)

Okay.

I wasn't s I wasn't sure if you meant T I E R or T E A R tiers. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tears. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (59:38)

It's a reset.

⁓ tears, yeah, crying tears. Yeah,

Nirvana Sherman (59:42)

Like my crying teeth.

Eric Fischer (59:45)

yeah. It's very healthy, you know. It's a it's a it's a it's a nervous system reset, but but I but I but it's really important to recognize the fact that you are doing it your way, you know, because there's individuality to that, that I think individuation is self actualization that's really fundamental to healing and overcoming.

Kevin Bellack (59:50)

Yeah.

Besides Sinatra saying it in my head now, thanks. the you're gonna do it your way, I think is it's important to note that you didn't do it alone, right? It it's cause a lot of people have this thought of like, I'm gonna do it my way, meaning I have to do it myself. I should be able to do it.

you know, I've I've done all these other hard things in my life. I should be able to do it. I'm gonna do it my way, all this stuff. That doesn't mean you have to do it alone. Like, and you didn't, like you just from that first, I think you said met a friend for lunch who was like, No, I only drink one day a week. and and just from that and and you took that and ran with it, and all along the way, meetings and forum and groups and and all of that.

Yeah. Your way can be your way, but y you need help. We all need help. Like there's no reason to do it alone. No, no, no. I'm just saying in general, I was just wanted to I yeah, I didn't think you did. I just wanted to like really kind of hammer that home because you know, we hear it a lot and yeah, I think it's important to Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:00:53)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, no. I didn't mean that. I sorry for yeah, yeah, I didn't yeah, no. Yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (1:01:11)

No, I needed the structure. I needed the structure.

I needed the information. I needed the daily tasks. Like just doing the daily tasks. I I I only I did them. I want to go back to them because I'm at like a hundred and th day, a hundred fifty-two or something daily tasks where I did them every day and then I I need to go back. But I that structure helped me, with my ADHD brain kinda like just stick with it too. Like I needed even the pressure of I I loved the daily tasks because it it like

brought me back to doing this. Cause otherwise we can get busy in life too. And it's like I had if I have this goal, like for somebody who's so unstructured as I was, that was a good thing. And the groups were a good thing. Like not everybody it's like I didn't you didn't even know what you need until you kind of get in it. I didn't know that I needed that until I had it. And then I really like appreciate it. But for people who are just kind of finding the app or or try

like maybe struggling because they are alone, because a lot of people do feel alone. To think about like how bringing just even if you're interacting with an app, like that is so helpful. Just doing a daily task and having the structure of it, even if that's all you're gonna do for like the beginning, like I'm just gonna do the daily tasks. Like that was so helpful. And the information you get, once you start, it's like you can't unsee it. Once you learn how your brain is is

changing when you put a drink in your body, like it's it if you're still drinking, then it's I don't know again, I don't want to like judge people that are still drinking, like knowing the science behind it, but it makes it a little bit harder once, you know, certain things about it.

Kevin Bellack (1:02:35)

Yeah.

Yeah. And you could still adjust and yeah, I mean, mindfully moderate, cut back and you know, again, there's like a a risk tolerance that we all have and how it shows up for us and all of that. I mean, that's why there yeah, there's only one way to address alcohol in your life and it's the way that works for you. what does that look like? But also being honest with ourselves and knowing how we are is important.

as far as like, you know, where do we where do I go with this? 'Cause I fought it for a long time. I I know whenever I started off I was, you know, talking with my therapist and be like, Okay, but when can I drink again? Like when are you gonna fix me? Like I was never so I would never go to AA because I like, Well, that's abstinence. I'm not gonna do that. And I don't believe in some of the steps and I, you know, that was me on the outside of that. And I was like, that's not gonna be for me. I'm not gonna give it up. Like, so I had to

Slowly figure it out. And yeah. Do it whatever way. Do we each do it our way. I'm not gonna get that on my head. Yeah, definitely.

Nirvana Sherman (1:03:53)

Yeah. Definitely better not to be alone though. Definitely not

Eric Fischer (1:03:53)

Do it your way.

Nirvana Sherman (1:03:57)

so much better to

not be alone. And and even if you're interacting on a forum with strangers, it's like it's better than being alone. Like Billy, I don't think that humans are supposed we're not meant to like do these things alone. And so it's that's that's the great like clarity of of when you hear someone share and you relate so much. It's like, I'm not alone in that. This this happens to other people too. And then and then

Kevin Bellack (1:03:59)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:04:09)

No.

Nirvana Sherman (1:04:22)

That slowly erases the shame too, because you're it's not just mi.

Eric Fischer (1:04:26)

Yeah, and I at at you know, at Reframe, if in case anybody's curious, like when we mean community meetings, there may be seventy-five people on the low end. And Kevin, you know all these these numbers better than I do. But I've hosted meetings with three hundred and something people. I mean, big a lot of folks on Zoom, and you can see a lot of them have their camera on and some don't, but

Kevin Bellack (1:04:42)

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:04:49)

That's that's that's what I think Reframe offers is so valuable a l amongst a whole lot of plethora of different kind of pieces that you can that you can learn from is that community. You know, you jump on the on the on the on the Zoom meetings and there's so many people there supporting one another.

Kevin Bellack (1:05:06)

Yeah. And there are meanings that are, yeah, like fifty, seventy-five, less. Depends on the community. Like, so yeah, finding so it can be easy to hide if that's your thing, but you can also share. And you can find hide meaning like, I don't want to share. I don't wanna, I'm just listening, right? I'm just just trying to absorb this for now. yeah, and then the forum is, you know, there's a place where you can

Eric Fischer (1:05:12)

Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (1:05:30)

just share something yeah, any any given time of day, no matter where you are, and you're gonna get a response fairly quickly, I would say, right? I mean at least within an hour or two at the most. I would I would think it would be quicker than that. but you know, I don't have the stats on that, as far as like w you know, posts and how quickly people get back or might like or say something, but yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (1:05:55)

And if not, post again. Someone will find it, you know? Just keep keep it up.

Eric Fischer (1:05:57)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (1:05:57)

Exactly. Keep

keep trying. Yeah. Yeah. We can't do something once and expect it to work, right? yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (1:06:05)

And the speaker shares are were also a huge like awakening for me, l listening to the whole meeting being someone's story instead of just like so interactive like the other meetings. Like they're all helpful. But the I remember my first speaker share that was that I heard you get to hear the full like from beginning to end of someone's journey. I highly recommend those Friday night meetings.

Kevin Bellack (1:06:28)

Yeah.

Yeah. Absolutely.

Nirvana Sherman (1:06:33)

like my favorite things now, like reframes. It's just really it's such a great community. So

Kevin Bellack (1:06:39)

Yeah. Well thank you for contributing to that and being here. And I think we can is there anything else you wanted to add before we wrap up and move on to what did we learn this week?

Nirvana Sherman (1:06:51)

Yeah, no, I think I'm ready for that.

Kevin Bellack (1:06:54)

Okay. well, could be completely off topic, not sobriety related, just a little nugget for the listeners. what did we learn this week? What what's something new that you're working on or thinking about or what did you learn? any any takers going first?

Eric Fischer (1:07:08)

Mm-hmm.

Nirvana Sherman (1:07:09)

I learned I mean I already spoke a little about boundaries, but boundaries are not mean. They are actually a way of respecting ourselves and they can be said nicely in many different ways. And that's what I've been working on today, and all week, basically just learning more and more

What good comes from boundaries. Like boundaries are not a bad thing.

Kevin Bellack (1:07:28)

Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome.

Eric Fischer (1:07:29)

Yeah, I love it. ⁓

well, I I learned that that melanoma is their surviving rates, survivability rates have dramatically gone up with the the access to immunotherapy.

so my someone in my family has is getting over melanoma and yeah, so I was exposed to some new information and ten years ago melanoma, your outlook was not good at all. And now it's kind of turned on its head. Ninety something percent of folks that have melanoma spread throughout their body are having phenomenal

Life expectancy results due to immunotherapy. So that's what I learned, which is promising, I suppose.

Kevin Bellack (1:08:17)

Yeah, absolutely. mine's I this isn't something I necessarily learn, but this is like a a a rabbit hole I've fallen down lately is the movie The Matrix. Go back and watch that, but think of the Matrix as and I'm no spoilers, I'm not gonna get into what I'm thinking of and what

rabbit holes I'm actually falling down, but think of the Matrix as kind of alcohol. a lot of the things that we were just saying, like you can't unlearn what you learn and all that. It's like, you know, I think of the one guy being like, why why didn't I take the blue pill? Like ignorance is bliss. And like I've I've thought that before in my own journey. And but if you look at it like that control and that I don't want to get in I it's just

Eric Fischer (1:08:44)

Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (1:09:01)

It's pretty cool when you watch that. that's one of my favorite movies. I don't what people think about it, but that that's one where there's a lot that you can get out of it. The other ones, the two, three, four, whatever, not so much. But the first one is yeah. And I'm I'm there's something like he actually even says Morpheus in in that he's like it's like a splinter in your mind, like trying, you know, you can't get out of it.

Eric Fischer (1:09:14)

That original one.

Kevin Bellack (1:09:25)

And this the whole thing with if you're familiar with the movie, the There is No Spoon scene towards the end is in particular one that I'm like, huh, this is really interesting from a perspective of like how alcohol might show up in our life and how to approach it differently. I feel like that's a teaser and I'm not actually a nugget, but

Go watch it and let me know what you think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because the yeah. Yeah, and I again I don't wanna I I'm not g I'm not giving spoilers or I mean, but at this point it's nine in 1999, it was came out. So if you haven't watched it by now, what are you doing with your life? And I'm apologize if you've neither of you have watched it. but

Eric Fischer (1:09:50)

Hey, it counts. It counts. You prompted me. I'm gonna go I'm gonna I'm gonna wrap my head around that.

Nirvana Sherman (1:09:52)

Go watch it again. It's been a long time.

Eric Fischer (1:10:10)

With your No, it's good timing. I haven't seen it.

Nirvana Sherman (1:10:14)

No, I have my kids haven't seen it.

My kids have not seen it. I'm like, You gotta watch the Matrix.

Kevin Bellack (1:10:19)

I know, I just sat down with my daughter yesterday, knowing full well that she probably wouldn't she'd probably get distracted. I'm like, You're watching this before she's heading to college in the fall. So like you're watching this before we go out. like it's in my head now, so we're just gonna watch it. so yeah, we're gonna get back to that and I don't know if we'll watch all of them, but we gotta at least watch the first one.

Nirvana Sherman (1:10:37)

Nice. I did learn a f a funny little f side fact. Michelin stars for restaurants is the same as the tire company, Michelin tires. They're the ones that started the the Michelin star. The tire company started the Michelin stars to get people to travel across the country to different restaurants because they need to use their tires. So just a little fun fact. Totally random. Random information.

Kevin Bellack (1:10:44)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:10:48)

⁓

Kevin Bellack (1:10:51)

Really? That's weird.

Eric Fischer (1:10:51)

Really?

Interesting. Yeah, that is a yeah.

Kevin Bellack (1:11:02)

I just assumed

yeah. I assume those are two different people that named Michelin that founded both of those. that is interesting.

Eric Fischer (1:11:05)

Those little fun facts are fun though.

Nirvana Sherman (1:11:11)

company. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:11:13)

Yeah, fun little fun little fact. Yeah, those are those are fun. Like the rule of nines I just learned about. Did you guys know about this? So so if you take so so I'm forty-six. So you if you add the four and the six, that's ten. And then you subtract the one from the you subtract the one and the zero to get nine. So if my daughter's thirteen, you add the one and the three to get four.

Kevin Bellack (1:11:20)

Night.

Okay.

Eric Fischer (1:11:38)

And then see now you see you're gonna have to cut this, Kevin. I just learned this. But it's it's a

Kevin Bellack (1:11:42)

No, ⁓ I'm thinking

Nirvana Sherman (1:11:42)

This is

Kevin Bellack (1:11:44)

about

Nirvana Sherman (1:11:44)

where my A D D is like what? I need a paper?

Kevin Bellack (1:11:44)

it. I have to I had to shut my eyes to to start processing this.

Nirvana Sherman (1:11:48)

Like

nine minus three.

Eric Fischer (1:11:49)

So yeah, so my daughter's ten. One one plus zero is ten minus the one, that's nine. So I'm forty-six, so four plus six is ten. And then you minus the one from the zero to get nine. So it always adds up to nine. So f sixteen, six plus seven is all right, sixteen. Six plus one is seven. Six, seven.

Kevin Bellack (1:12:10)

Six six seven.

Nirvana Sherman (1:12:13)

So

Eric Fischer (1:12:15)

And then anyway, and I

Nirvana Sherman (1:12:16)

math and I math and I I I have I went not to math in the early though.

Kevin Bellack (1:12:16)

⁓ I hate hate I hate myself. Wait, if you're sixteen, one plus

six is seven.

Eric Fischer (1:12:21)

It's

seven and then seven minus seven minus sixteen minus seven is nine.

Kevin Bellack (1:12:30)

So if I'm 40, which I'm not, I'm 46, but we already did that. so four plus zero is four.

Eric Fischer (1:12:32)

Okay.

And then you would you would minus four plus zero four and then zero. See, I don't know that one. You have to AI it. It's real though. It's real guys. The rule lines. It's a it's a completely useless piece of information, but

Kevin Bellack (1:12:47)

Ha ha I the roll of nines.

Nirvana Sherman (1:12:48)

What's it called?

The rule of nines. I'll have to

Kevin Bellack (1:12:56)

Yeah. So you're s what you're saying is is that and it's just for age or just any number, you get to nine.

Eric Fischer (1:13:03)

⁓ it yeah, it equals nine, yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (1:13:03)

Right. Okay.

All right. ⁓ yeah. Cause I have my own I have my own beautiful mind math. Like when it comes to like I've been aca accounting for years. It was funny, my I was trying to help my daughter with math homework when a couple of years ago and she's doing like trigger calculus. And I'm like Yeah, I was just looking at it just for fun of it. And she's like, You don't you how do you not know this? You're an accountant. I'm like, dude. I'm like, I I probably said 'cause this is one she used, I'm like, bruh.

Nirvana Sherman (1:13:07)

To research that one after this.

Eric Fischer (1:13:30)

Yeah.

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Kevin Bellack (1:13:34)

⁓ I'm like,

accountants know arithmetic. Like we can add, subtract, multiply, divide. We don't we're not doing calculus. we're doing percentages and arithmetic. And but I can sit there and I'll I'll throw something like somebody'll say something and I'll be it's this and they'll be like, What? I'm like, Yeah, you and I explain how I got there and they're my wife's like, just just stop. Like, just I don't I can't Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:13:53)

yeah. The ADHD way of putting it together. Yeah,

the pattern recognition on all this. Yeah. yeah, I remember being a kid. Do you guys remember being a kid with math? Well, see, you're Kevin, you're different because you enjoyed math. I, on the other hand, did not like it at all. I but I can remember thinking to myself, like, man, I'm never doing this. If I can do it on a calculator, this has no use for me at all. Even at a very young age.

Kevin Bellack (1:14:00)

Yeah.

yeah.

Yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (1:14:18)

I used to

cry. I used to cry in school, up until college, even in math. Like I had a learning disability that nobody figured out. And I it was so hard. So especially with like calling out numbers in the air, like I need to write things down and see it on paper. Otherwise I cannot even like even very simple things, like it just gets turns into all zeros. I don't know. Like it I can't even picture it.

Kevin Bellack (1:14:39)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:14:39)

Yeah. Or like the little pair like the or yeah.

Yeah. Or like Kevin Kevin walked into the grocery store with three friends. Kevin had a dollar and forty six cents and and his friend bought this and then they bought that. And then how much money did they walk out with? Those types of questions.

Nirvana Sherman (1:14:59)

I like doing them if I can write down everything. Like I actually like the puzzle of it and kinda and that's why I really liked algebra once I finally figured it out and writing it down and breaking down like the the factors and all that. I really enjoyed it, but just need a need to see it. Very visual.

Eric Fischer (1:15:02)

Okay.

Kevin Bellack (1:15:02)

Yeah.

It's yeah.

That's what like algebra, geometry,

like I like those, especially algebra, because it was like a puzzle versus calculus and trick didn't make sense to me because it it's nonsensical. It was nonsensical to me, right? It didn't, it didn't the patterns didn't make sense. So or I never learned them. yeah. And I just realized I closed my eyes there again when you started the word problem. So when you start explaining something.

If I wanna concentrate, I think I've g I think I have to turn my eyes off. I have to shut those down to focus because it's like, you know, I I I think it's funny all like the memes or all the reels on Instagram, whenever. I just saw one the other day where 'cause I have s I always have subtitles on on my TV and i the guy was like washing dishes and he like watching TV as he's watching dishes and he was saying the

what was actually being said and then when he looked away, it was just gibberish. And it's like that's how it is, like listening to it. but yeah, it's I if you start anybody who starts telling me directions, I immediately just be anymore, I don't even humor it. I'm like, just stop. I got GPS. I got a phone. It's fine. I can't follow. I don't know.

Eric Fischer (1:16:02)

Ha ha ha.

That's

short term memory.

Kevin Bellack (1:16:21)

yeah, I guess.

Eric Fischer (1:16:22)

Yeah.

Nirvana Sherman (1:16:24)

Well, memory definitely improves minus the alcohol. Like that's helped my memory's gotten so much better. Thank goodness. I needed that. Thank you guys.

Kevin Bellack (1:16:26)

Yes.

Yeah. Yep.

All right. Any other little rabbit holes we want to fall down with that? Nirvana, thank you so much for coming on and sharing with us today. yeah, anywhere any again, any parting words or anywhere that people can reach you or that you'd like to share, feel free, or we can put it in the show notes. but thank you again.

Eric Fischer (1:16:35)

Yeah, thank you for joining.

Nirvana Sherman (1:16:38)

Yeah.

Sure, I'll give you my forum name and happy happy I actually now I'm trying to put my name out there more during meetings because I'm really happy to help the people who are just beginning to help them with a little more confidence and and know that they can do it their way. And yeah, I'm really happy for you guys. Thank you for all you do as coaches and just for the app whoever developed this. They're they've really like changed so many people's lives and it's amazing. And I I hear it every day when I hear shares, like it's

Really magic, so thank you.

Kevin Bellack (1:17:25)

Yeah. Thanks for sharing with us. And thank you all for listening to another episode of the Reframable Podcast brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. And I want to thank you again for listening and be sure to come back for another episode.

Eric Fischer (1:17:25)

Thank you.

Kevin Bellack (1:17:54)

A great day.