Why We Reach for Alcohol: Trauma and Attachment

Join Coach Kevin, Coach Eric, and Reframe Coach Maria Thelke for a conversation about healing trauma, building secure attachment, and understanding why we reach for alcohol in the first place. Maria is a trauma-informed relationship and recovery coach who specializes in helping people heal from trauma, build secure relationships, and create lasting change through nervous system regulation and attachment science.

This episode explores what it really means to come back to yourself. The conversation digs into the space between stimulus and response, and how the meanings we assign in that gap can either keep us regulated or send us searching for relief. You'll learn how early experiences shape the way we cope with pain, why our nervous systems can mistake the familiar for the safe, and how "trauma bonds" can drive us back toward what hurts us.
Along the way, the hosts and Maria unpack practical, accessible ideas you can use right away: the power of metacognition and questioning your automatic thoughts, the "language of permission" that quietly gives us license to cross our own boundaries, and the value of spending a week simply observing your patterns before trying to change anything. They also discuss how becoming aware of what repeats in your life — your transitions, routines, and self-talk — can help you rewrite the internal scripts that keep you stuck.

Whether you're just beginning to explore your relationship with alcohol or years into your journey, this episode offers a compassionate look at how awareness, self-connection, and safe support can open the door to real, lasting change.

The Reframeable podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the #1 app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. If you have a topic you'd like us to cover on the podcast, send an email to podcast@reframeapp.com or, if you're on the Reframe app, give it a shake and let us know what you want to hear.

Transcript

Kevin (00:00)

Welcome everyone to another episode of the Reframable Podcast, the podcast that brings you people stories and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship, not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more. Because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass. This podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol.

It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. My name is Kevin Bellach, I'm a certified professional recovery coach and the head of coaching at reframe.

Eric Fischer (00:33)

And I'm Eric Fisher. Happy to be here with everybody. I am also a certified recovery and lifestyle coach and at Reframe and yeah, looking forward to a good conversation here today.

Kevin (00:44)

Yeah, likewise. Today we're joined by Reframe Coach Maria Tilke. Maria is a trauma-informed relationship and recovery coach who specializes in helping people heal from trauma, build secure relationships, and create lasting change through nervous system regulation, attachment science, and compassionate accountability. She loves helping people discover that healing is possible and that lasting freedom begins with safe connection. Welcome, Maria. How's it going?

Maria Theelke (01:11)

Good, thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.

Kevin (01:13)

Yeah, thanks for joining us today.

Maria Theelke (01:14)

Yeah.

early beginnings were very, very, very, very, very, very traumatic. And I guess I could say if you can name an abuse, happened. Even high speed car chases and stuff weird stuff like that. So what I know to be true is that when you have

the willingness and the perseverance and the commitment to heal, regardless of the degree of trauma you can. And when your early beginnings were maybe not consistently safe, honestly not, they were not. In fact, they were so unsafe that at age 10 when I was adopted, I had to choose a new name. And I went by Amanda for 25 years.

until my first divorce. And then I had dreams of taking my real name back, of reclaiming my identity again. And so I did. And oh man, it felt so good. Now I hear that name and I'm like, now it's on the chalkboard. But because when we walk in authenticity, we really get to heal. I got to at age 35, I got to go back and heal Maria.

who was abused in horrific ways. And my children got to see them. I have four kids. My youngest will be 18, October 20th. Can you guys believe that? My oldest is 25? Unreal. Like, gosh darn it, they grow so fast. And so, like, when we look at our early beginnings, our parents are not perfect. And healing little Maria meant I had to be able to say, they're not bad people.

Kevin (02:22)

wow.

Yeah.

Maria Theelke (02:35)

Those were bad behaviors they did to me. And what, one of them, the other one, man, my dad, he was the greatest. He passed when I was six. And I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for him, but I also wouldn't be here if he hadn't passed. So, but when those early beginnings are not consistently safe and nurturing, you look for those breadcrumbs of love. You look for those breadcrumbs of coping. You look for relief.

Pain pursues pleasure. Dr. Rick Marks is someone I've studied with. He wrote his doctoral thesis on that. Pain pursues pleasure in the form of relief in some way, form. And so are we getting relief from our safe connections? Like our community? That's why our meetings are like the magic sauce. Because it's safe and it's led by professionals that are understanding and they're compassionate and they're caring and...

When people get engaged in that safe community, it provides them with the safety that they need. And so as a mom, I know I've messed up. Doesn't make me a bad person. Oh, holy cow, have I messed up. I could write a book on just that. that's, when my, even when, when and if my kids come to me and are like, mom, I want to talk about this. I'm going be like, you bet, let's go. Let's go. What can I do to support you? Right?

Because I'm not perfect, I know I've messed up. I know I have. And yet, I also did a great job too. We're not bad people. We just sometimes make bad decisions or marry the wrong person. So there's that. But what I love about recovery is life does present us with a lot of pain.

And in that pain, how did we cope with it? Did we do what our parents did? You know, I have a family member who did exactly what my real mom did and she dove into drugs and alcohol. Whereas I swore it off. You know, and then we have other ways, people do lots of other ways that people cope with the pain. But when we earn secure attachment here, where we become our own safe place consistently, and my group coaching starts...

Was it two weeks from now, Kevin? On learning how to trust yourself? Man, that's huge, because you get to connect here and just go, all right, I'm good. I know I'm doing all right. And what else is true? Right? Truth and trust go hand in hand. So attachment theory is really about looking at our early beginnings, really looking at how did we cope with pain? How do we connect?

in a safe way and how is it related to addictions? How is it related to how we are inside relationships? Unless we choose to be safe and our partner chooses to be safe because if oftentimes it is an active choice and it's hard sometimes. I know I mess up.

Yeah, right. And in getting when we're when we're dysregulated, we're not connected. We're disconnected from ourself and our partner. We're not in our regular prefrontal cortex regulated mind. We're just not. And so in order to be safe, this person has to choose safety, this person has to choose safety and then learn how do we come back together in that. So I love saving marriages, too. So I get to do that as well. But

Kevin (05:02)

Same.

Eric Fischer (05:26)

Mm-hmm.

Maria Theelke (05:27)

You know,

the big thing is how do we first come back to here to ourself? So we're not leaning into an addiction for emotional comfort.

Yeah. A lot of times people feel very married and alone. And that is the number one coping strategy for somebody that feels unmarried and alone is alcohol. Number one. I'm also an American Association of Sex Addiction Therapist coach because I was married to two people who were sex addicts. Not at the same time, of course. Two have had been married twice. And I'm being very cautious this time. And there was alcohol involved in both those marriages.

I've been alcohol-free 700 and...

12 days, somewhere around there. And dating the same person for two years now and it's such a difference. It is sober as you see and experience things totally different. It's awesome, really awesome.

Kevin (06:10)

Yeah. You said about having people come back to themselves. Like where do you start with that?

Maria Theelke (06:14)

Mm-hmm.

Well, you know, Victor Franco, and I think Eric knows this quote better than me for the man search of meaning. He says, between the stimulus and the response, there's that pause. Well, the other piece is during the stimulus and the reaction, we move from I am calm, grounded, secure, safe to I can fix this, I can fight it, I can run from it.

and that I can space in the middle of polyvagal theory, right, is where we are not connected and grounded and calm. And so it's very much that we're out here doing instead of out in here being. So when we come back to ourselves and we come back to being grounded in our right mind, in our logical thinking, regulated mind, we process totally different.

So coming back to ourself is number one, recognize stimulus response. Did we take the pause and do metacognition when we caught the thought that says, oh, they looked at me funny? Have you ever had that before? I don't know about you, I'm ADHD, I am medicated. Might not seem like it, but I am. So anyway, you know when someone looks at you funny and you're like, oh, they're upset with me.

Eric Fischer (07:18)

Yeah.

Maria Theelke (07:23)

How many times do we personalize that it causes dysregulation? We make an assumed meaning, an assumption, and act on that. Instead of going, wow, that was a funny look, wonder if they're okay.

Not personalized, not dysregulated, curious. Still in our right mind. So as we're experiencing this, Dr. Sarah Hensley teaches this and I teach it too. So this is where we take the thought captive. Metacognition, three questions. Is this true? They're mad, they're upset, they're angry? Well, I don't know, I didn't ask. Is it helpful? Probably not.

Eric Fischer (07:38)

Mm.

Maria Theelke (07:56)

Is this keeping me emotionally regulated and securely attached to myself? Nope. So we reframe it. Pun intended. Right? Hey, that was a funny look. Hmm. They know I'm here for them if they need me.

hope they're okay. If that happens again, maybe I'll go ask and see if they're alright. Maybe they're having a bad day.

But it's interesting how we as human beings try to personalize it and we bridge the gap of misunderstanding with our own meanings, which causes dysregulation and then causes a need for pain or for relief. We cause our own pain, then we need relief. So this is the Viktor Frankl stimulus response pause. What do we do in the pause? In order to have secure attachment, you have to first earn it with yourself.

And then we can do that with others too. And be safe. Does that make sense? Did that answer your question or did I go around in circles?

Eric Fischer (08:40)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin (08:43)

No, I mean I think that because I mean i i I was thinking just now of like the meme where the man and the woman are going to sleep and you know, one person's like, they're thinking this and the other per and the other person's like what they're actually thinking is about like dinosaurs or something, you know, it's like absolutely nothing to do with them, but they're t they're internalizing that. maybe that's a bad you know, correlation there, but

Maria Theelke (09:06)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin (09:06)

But it's like that

making that narrative up in our head that doesn't exist or yeah, that that we don't ask and say, Hey, are you okay? Like, are you mad at are you mad about something? Like what what's going on? Instead we like, they're mad at me for this and we maybe make up what the this is even.

Maria Theelke (09:13)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yep. All right, go one level deeper with the meme. Let's say, because with couples that are saving the marriage and intimacy is lacking, we schedule it. Honestly, it's scheduled two to three times a week. And the reality is that they rarely hit their goals, but they learn how to communicate. Hey, you know what? Right now, I feel so overwhelmed. I'm struggling to connect with myself. Can you just hold me?

So many times people avoid even saying that because it's hard to sit in that conversation even if it's that gentle. They don't know how to say it. They don't know what to say. And so the reality is, when we, and here's the thing, if you have an anxious person, they come in with critical stuff in order to push the other person away. If you have an avoidant, they're just gonna straight up avoid it. Why have?

conversation. Hey, they're just there. And then they assign a meaning to what they think the conversation how it would have gone, which is be like, well, if I said that, then this is what's going to happen that she's going to end it. And they've made up the whole narrative and they go, believe it. Instead of and it's like, Okay, no, wait a minute, we have this little contract we made with Coach Maria, and we're not going to make up our own narratives anymore. We're going to ask curious questions and stay connected. So that's

Eric Fischer (10:25)

Mm-hmm.

Maria Theelke (10:37)

It's interesting how both parties have their own way of kind of pushing each other, but their buttons are pushing them away. So yeah, there's that too.

Eric Fischer (10:45)

Yeah, and then and then there's the projecting as well and and and and relationships. And you you you nailed and touched on a few things that I really love is like the attachment theory, the earned authenticity, earned confidence, right? Confidence is not granted. So there's a proactivity to it and then and and one foot in front of the other is part of that whole earning piece. and and then understanding that you have

Maria Theelke (10:48)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-mm.

This is it.

Eric Fischer (11:11)

Have really overcome, you know, quite a bit that stemmed from childhood. And now here you are coaching people in trauma and attachment theory. And do do you do you find and then metacognition? And there's, you know, interestingly with AI and jobs and this and that, there's there's quite a few experts nowadays, thinkers, psychologists, teachers, et cetera, that are really pushing that word metacognition into the mainstream because

Maria Theelke (11:14)

Thank you.

Mm.

Eric Fischer (11:37)

It's the

ability to separate the thinking, not to be cognitively fused, as like I I am the I I am my identity and the thinking are are fused, right? And then because people are saying nowadays, you know, the ability to speak in public and and present is going to be more important than than you know passing information from computer to computer. Okay, so I love the metacognition.

Maria Theelke (11:43)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Eric Fischer (12:03)

I think that's fundamental to and you know, not we were never I was never taught this growing up from my parents and teachers and coaches on how to, you know, how to think this way. now, do you when when you have a client, and this is just me just straight being curious, like you mentioned before, do you does that mean because this would tie in like Jean Piaget and Freud and Jung, the unconscious, the conscious, childhood trauma, past experiences shape us as we

Maria Theelke (12:09)

Mm-mm.

Okay.

Eric Fischer (12:30)

you know, mature into adulthood, do you are are you always the most of do you work with most of your clients in terms of uncovering that trauma? Is it almost always rooted in in the past or do you find it also do you do you work with them on a at a at a level that's present where they are or is it rooted in past trauma?

Maria Theelke (12:50)

Well, it's interesting you should ask that. Okay, so like earlier today, I had a client for a session and what I like to do is get to know what are you getting, what are you looking for to get out of coaching? Because coaching rule 101, I'm also a therapeutic coach as my basis. masters in neuro-linguistics programming, so I'm listening to what I'm not hearing. Humanistic, neuro-linguistics, psychology and hypnosis.

And so when I'm listening to the nuances, I'm watching their skin tone, I'm listening for the, or watching for the body shifts, you know, just really paying attention. And what was so interesting is this person went through this beautiful circle, mean, painful, painful circle of this is what's happening at my workplace.

and this is what's happening in my home. And this is what's happening in my, what happened to my childhood. And my boss reminds me of my sibling and this and this and this and this and this. And I said, can I just ask you a question?

How old is that part of you?

And she went.

I said, what did you hear? She said five.

I said, so you feel lonely in your marriage? You feel disrespected at work? And you have felt this way a really long time, is that right? She was like, yeah. And I'm like, you wanna go heal that little girl? We can go do that right now. You ready? And we did a healing through time, except my gut said to have her sit at a dining room table. That sounds really stupid.

But it's just follow your gut. A dining room table with that weird Formica on it, you know, the round tables we used to have in like the 80s, 90s. And she just heard it giggled. And I said, yeah, I want you just in your mind just to sit down at this table. And next to you is that five-year-old little girl. But you are your healing self right now. You're safe. And across from the table, I want you to see your mom and dad. I say thank you.

Kevin (14:21)

Yeah boy.

Maria Theelke (14:36)

for all the good that you gave me. And right now I'm choosing to take responsibility for my own parenting. I'm relieving you guys of influence and duty. I love you, thank you.

Now hire yourself and turn to that little girl. And as you're talking to her, know that you are your healing self right now.

Tell her how much you love her.

Tell her that you're going to keep her safe.

You're not going to neglect her or betray her or let anyone else do that either.

And then we integrate like internal family systems. This is a part of the NLP. We got to integrate that little girl into her healing self now to be protected and to be loved and to be cared for and heard and seen valued.

And so when I look at healing with each of my clients or coaching with each of my clients, I never have a game plan because when you go into it with a game plan, we're not meeting them where they're at. We're asking them to come to where we are. And so if they're not ready to go that route, I'm going to hear it. I'm going to pay attention to what they're saying because this is all about coming into their world and walking with them.

Right? So if they're like, yeah, this is what happened.

And this is when it started and this is how many years I've been practicing and working on it and this and that. like one person's like 30 years of doing all this work and I'm like, okay, well, what can I serve you? How can I serve you? How can I help you? And they go, well, I really wanna, okay, let's do that.

Does that make, does that answer your question? Each client is unique and special and gosh, I mean, I know it sounds so corny. mean, like when I, I, when I hosted my first Master Quest, I kind of cried like a baby. Cause I'm like, I get to do this. Like, wow. So cool. But I did. I can't remember if I got that on the recording or not. I hope they edited it out. No, I cried before and after.

Eric Fischer (15:57)

Mm-hmm. yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin (16:01)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (16:12)

Mm. Yeah.

Kevin (16:16)

Yeah. I was gonna say, yeah, when d when did that go down? Afterwards or during or what?

Eric Fischer (16:16)

Ha ha ha

Kevin (16:22)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (16:22)

Well the brain needs to, you know, the brain needs to be able to process events and that's part of that integration. You know, we we our brain works on that closed loop cycle and circuit. And so when something's left kind of hanging out in the wind, so to speak, it needs that revisiting to integrate so it can move move forward. And that's no easy, you know, it's not easy to look at what we don't want to look at and to find.

Maria Theelke (16:26)

Yup.

Eric Fischer (16:47)

what it is that we can learn from it and extract that out and and gain some earn some confidence and gain some wiz wisdom to continue you know carving a new path as we as we march towards our next goal or obstacle or or life event and what have you with a little bit more objective you know understanding where it is that we're going and why we're going there and and I think trauma do

Maria Theelke (16:55)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (17:11)

I mean, Kev, what's your view? You've been coaching a long time. Trauma trauma is subjective and you know, we we get asked that quite a bit and trauma for one person is easy breezy for somebody else. You know, you can think of a boss, you can think of, you know, if we all have the same boss, I that boss might wreck my world and and and the two of you have no problem with them. Just, you know, we're we're

Maria Theelke (17:22)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kevin (17:23)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (17:33)

that goes back to how beautifully unique all of us are and there's no one way.

Maria Theelke (17:33)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin (17:40)

Yeah. Or I just absorb it into maybe what I've already what I've I've learned to deal with, right? Because of I'm used to it. yeah, I mean, like you just said, I mean, we're all unique in that where we're all gonna be affected by things differently and how deeply it might show up.

Maria Theelke (17:50)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin (18:01)

I mean, even if it is deep, maybe we're not really ready to and that's why I was thinking too. Maybe we're not ready to

Maria Theelke (18:01)

Okay.

Kevin (18:07)

address that or think we already did, maybe. Like, I've done all this work. I've gone I've been to therapy. I've dealt

Eric Fischer (18:10)

Yeah.

Maria Theelke (18:10)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin (18:12)

dealt with all of this. But even just because we've talked about it doesn't mean necessarily we dealt with it, right? So how do you get people to revisit that if needed, or or dive into a little bit deeper.

Maria Theelke (18:26)

Well, you pace them. You have to pace. If you push, it's, you know, and even when you, this one client keeps coming to my mind, was pacing, pacing, pacing, and then her behaviors inside her personal world became inappropriate. And I was like, okay, we got to make some changes here. But you know, the,

Kevin (18:27)

Yeah.

Maria Theelke (18:44)

Pacing is a really important part of coaching because if you push someone, it's like throwing them against the wall and expecting them to bounce like a bouncy ball. Like they cannot. mean, it's like Eric, you referred back to like what the brain's ready for, right? There's like six stages of readiness. And sometimes people just are not ready. You know, back in like 2016 when I was going to the Meta Institute in Minneapolis, you know, the...

Coach Sal was one of the instructors and she coached with the lady for weight loss for, was it year and a half? She didn't lose anything. Six months later, she sees the lady at the gym and she has 80 pounds lighter. She's like, my gosh, you did it, yeah! And she was like, you got me ready, you did this. And she's like, I wasn't coaching you at the time. She goes, no, but you're right here.

You never know what seeds you're planting. It's pretty awesome.

Kevin (19:29)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (19:30)

Yeah, really, that's that's well said. And and a and and oftentimes folks don't know it's in their unconscious. It might be a feeling, but they're unable to define it yet. that happened to me throughout my addiction, I will say, being able to look back now, it was it was this this feeling, but I couldn't describe it, and therefore I couldn't really take action on it necessarily. And so yeah, people need to be ready and and you know no

Maria Theelke (19:49)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (19:56)

About so they say 95% of our decisions are unconscious. And so when we talk about metacognition and

Maria Theelke (20:01)

You hear that?

Eric Fischer (20:03)

meeting people where they're at, we're we're we're trying to slide over into that conscious five percent so we can become a little bit more aware and be in tune with these voices. You know, we have this, we have voice one that's intellectual and reasonable and objective and lit and and maybe looks through the lens of

Maria Theelke (20:13)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (20:21)

perspective and then self too is rooted in emotion and impulsivity and a that that feel that f almost fundamental feeling of lack. I'm not good. Why even show up? And everybody's staring at me. And and oftentimes these two are not aligned or the person hasn't brought them in and kind of wrestled and played with them because they can tell us so like dreams too can tell us so much about our psyche and

Maria Theelke (20:37)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (20:45)

and once we start to kind of separate those, we can see a little bit more clearly and then kind of start to get inside of that and pinpoint what what might be the traumas that we were unaware of, at least consciously, and bring some of that out at at

Maria Theelke (20:58)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (20:59)

their at their speed. yeah, trauma I find to be very, you know, quite challenging. I'm very fascinated by how you how you go about it because it is it is such a skill set that is

unique, you know, to the therapist and the coach that to be able to help somebody overcome a a s big or a small team trauma.

Maria Theelke (21:16)

Yeah, I don't think I know a lot of people have used the linguistics of overcoming a trauma I think more than anything and I know you guys have probably I know Kevin and I both have read the same compass

Kevin (21:28)

Yeah. Yep.

Maria Theelke (21:28)

Right, but Dr. Frank,

have you read it yet, that's your homework.

Eric Fischer (21:31)

I have not read that one now. I w I will I'll

Kevin (21:32)

Yeah, Frank's books

Eric Fischer (21:34)

put that on my list.

Kevin (21:34)

Frank's books coming out next month.

Eric Fischer (21:36)

Okay.

Maria Theelke (21:36)

Well, we're both on the back. Yep. So the, I love to give out homework. So that's your homework, Frank. You got to read the shame compass. Did you guys know I'm known as like the homework queen at Reframe? I love doing homework. Of course, if they do it and they email it to me, I'm happy to give feedback and support, but not coach. Just be like, yeah, this is great. Or maybe you could write a little bit more about this or, know, just,

Eric Fischer (21:43)

I will. I will. Yeah, I will.

Ha ha ha

Maria Theelke (21:58)

acknowledge the hard work that they did. So it's pretty awesome. But the shame, you know, in the shame compass, you know, it's not that the abuse didn't happen to Frank. It's not that the abuse didn't happen to me. It'll never go away. But it is accepted as a part of my story. I'm no longer sitting in a place of feeling in any way, or form that I did that to myself or I allowed it to happen to me.

We both endured the identical type of abuse, but at the hands of different people. Mine was at the hands of my mom and her boyfriends and his was at his Boy Scout leader. And so when we look at those kinds of traumas and violations of the human body, a big part of healing trauma is more about befriending yourself, loving, choosing to learn how to accept your body, your mind, your...

abilities yourself as a whole because that kind of violation rips you apart from the inside out and there's no up down safe not safe and the pain is so intense it's wild but in the same breath when you move through through the healing part of it and learn how to do what other people can do naturally

which is to love ourselves, doesn't mean it's perfect, it's not, but to come back to yourself and say, okay, I choose me. I choose to hug that little six-year-old girl who went through that. I have pictures of me when I was six years old, and I go, wow, she was so brave.

Because she was. And she's a part of who I am today. She wasn't just victimized. And I'll be damned if I'll ever call myself a victim. Never. I see victory in me. And when we can move into that space where it's like, don't tell me I can't do something. I'm gonna do it whether you like it or not. Like, I used to own the Twin Cities Women's Expos at the Minneapolis Convention Center by myself.

Kevin (23:32)

Yeah.

Maria Theelke (23:52)

They were like, you're crazy. I'm like, nah, I'm just ADHD. But it's like, you can get through it.

But you have to have support. If it weren't for the nuns that took care of me when my dad died, he was the first, okay, he was an immigrant, his name was Walter Oberschatzek. My name was Maria Mahala Oberschatzek. And he was the first man in state of Iowa, I'm from Iowa, to win custody of his two little girls.

Eric Fischer (24:17)

Wow. Wow.

Maria Theelke (24:18)

Wow. And I got to crawl under the Volkswagens and bang on the frame and say I was fixing them because he was a mechanic. I love doing mechanic work too. And you can. I think it's truly because of his love and because of how he nurtured me that I am how and who I am today. Truly. Because those early years are so pivotal. Even when the trauma was happening, I was still being loved by my father.

Kevin (24:23)

Ha.

Eric Fischer (24:24)

huh.

Maria Theelke (24:43)

My mother and father were clearly not together. But I do have pictures of one or two Christmases where there's rows of alcohol in the background. And I was like, wow, this has been a, alcohol has been a part of my life story my whole life. It's wild, wild how pervasive it is for people to display, a friend of mine on Facebook posted a gift from her daughter.

It's a bar of alcohol and I'm like we're gifting poison. Really? Why not gift love and connection? Like let's go play a game of Monopoly or something. I might be a little old school. Well don't play with my brother Trevor, my adoptive brother Trevor. He will cheat on you. But never go to the bathroom playing Monopoly.

Kevin (25:21)

Yeah. I I was gonna say th speaking speaking of trauma, I have three older brothers and every year every

Eric Fischer (25:27)

Ha ha ha

ha.

Kevin (25:27)

year

the Monopoly got thrown out and every year we got it again for Christmas. 'cause fights fights ensued.

Eric Fischer (25:30)

Yeah.

Maria Theelke (25:34)

That is funny. Three older brothers. Wow. That's a lot. That's a lot. That had to have been a lot of either everybody was avoiding their emotions because they're busy being guys or you guys were all competing with one another, seeing who, you know, like bulls with their horns together. Yeah.

Kevin (25:51)

They were competing. I was there was too much there was too much of a gap between I think when I was born they were nine, seven, six and then me. so it's like they were clumped together and then I came along, so

Eric Fischer (25:52)

Which which one was it?

well.

Maria Theelke (26:05)

But that makes you a first born actually. Did you know when there's four years between? Yeah, that makes you a first born boy.

Kevin (26:07)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yep.

I yeah, I got a I I I got away with enough. I was I was the smallest at the time and all that, yeah. but I I I also got plenty from those guys. all in good fun. All in good fun. Yeah.

Maria Theelke (26:17)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (26:21)

From those guys. I'm sure.

Maria Theelke (26:25)

Yup.

Eric Fischer (26:27)

do you do you do you feel like people are aware, consciously aware of their traumas? Okay.

Maria Theelke (26:35)

No.

No, And here's why. Because, okay, so the nervous system has what I call autopilot. So my autopilot was trauma bonding, right? Was earn love, not intrinsically be loved, be respected. It was I had to earn it, I had to chase it, I had to go after it.

or everyone will reject you, abandon you, and betray you. So I believe wholeheartedly that I repeated that over and over and over and over again because my nervous system's normal was toxic. My nervous system's autopilot said, feels familiar, this feels like love.

Why do we go back to an ex that was hurting us? Because that is what feels comfortable for our nervous system, even if it's not helpful.

Eric Fischer (27:23)

You hear about that quite a bit. Sorry to interrupt, but you hear about, you know, male, female, et cetera, like relationships they find themselves with the same kind of type type of person. And that's what you are describing, yeah? So that that's that un unconscious experience stored in the body. okay.

Maria Theelke (27:25)

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Yep. absolutely. And we don't become aware of that because trauma bonds are, I would say, an addiction. That high, that relief of, I got chosen. I actually have a viral TikTok on that one. How do you know you're in a trauma bond? Because the minute they respond, you go, I'm OK.

You're getting your relief from another human being instead of giving it to yourself. Secure attachment is essential for us not to be addicted to anything or anyone else. It shouldn't take a text message for us to feel better. Why did we allow? And these are the unconscious things that run on autopilot. We don't know what we don't know. And there's a book called The Death of the Adult.

It's so good because it talks about all the different levels of consciousness, awareness, attachment, all the things that bring us to a point in society where we're leaning into our devices, substances, people, instead of staying genuinely connected with ourselves and our higher power.

that real connection, the table time to eat dinner as a family and chit chat and talk about our day and go outside, throw the ball. Like how many parents nowadays are actually outside throwing the football with their kids? Connecting, very, very few, very few. And that was all we did. Cause my brother was the quarterback for UMD and I just played the positions he needed me to.

Eric Fischer (28:58)

Ha

ha ha.

Maria Theelke (28:58)

You know,

and then they tried to recruit me and then Coach the Buddha is like, you're up now. I'm like, no, will not be tackled by my classmates. Forget it. But like, no, no, no. But like you go out, you play, you connect, you laugh, you enjoy company with one another, right? And this is the stuff that's missing in society. But that even the playtime, that was an unconscious thing. This is what we did.

We're in a time when people are unconsciously disconnecting from one another. Like, I love habit stacking. My psychologist said to me, Maria, I need you to be more mindful. I'm like, okay, no problem. goes, every time you pick up one of your phones, like two of them.

I want you to take a deep breath and connect with yourself. Habit stack. I'm like, Kevin just did that book on the book club. I know exactly what you're talking about. It feels like, okay, every time you pick up your phone, you take a deep breath, connect with yourself. I'm like, okay, man, she is amazing. Love Rachel. it's, no, I don't believe people are consciously aware.

of their patterns, I don't believe they're consciously aware of their traumas which show up in our patterns and they do not believe and this is the biggest part that's so hard to tell partners that have been betrayed because it was the hardest thing I had to hear too which is you are a part of the problem. Your reaction is triggering that and that is triggering this. You may not be the catalyst but you are a part of it.

And the cycle is the problem, not the people. The protests, behaviors you guys are doing, your patterns are the problem. And they're all rooted in trauma.

Eric Fischer (30:29)

And then yeah, and and they'll and they'll run unconsciously until something breaks in the person's life and and forces the forces them to go out and get help, let's say therapy, coaching, et cetera, and then and then they start becoming more conscious and aware of

Maria Theelke (30:29)

and they run consciously.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sometimes, sometimes they don't. Like between my first and my second marriages, which I was, they're both porn addicts, I did not, I mean wholeheartedly I'll admit, I did not realize.

The betrayal is the problem, right? You can't control anyone else. But my reaction to it, giving them control and power over my emotions, not staying safe and regulated for myself, which of course, first reactions are normal. Anger is normal. Yelling, screaming, and throwing stuff is normal, but only for a short period of time. Beyond that, you must take radical responsibility. And that is gonna be the name of my book.

started rewriting like three times. Once I'm done with it, I'll have my PhD. There you go. But as I do, I just have to finish it and turn it back in again. So once you take radical responsibility of your actions, your choices, your behaviors, your emotional regulation, you get to be different.

How do you comfort yourself when you're upset? What are you thinking? What are you talking? What music are you listening to? Even like I have one client who likes to turn on...

Disturbed I've seen disturbed in concert twice. It's a great show. It's so good Loved it Chicago Minneapolis three days apart. It was so fun Road trip, but anyway It's great. It's so entertaining and he's such a great singer. If you've never heard him sing sound of silence go and listen to it It's fantastic But it won't help you emotionally regulate

What you listen to matters. The words you think in your head matters. And what you're thinking, the assigned meanings you have about your partner matters. All of it contributes to staying emotionally regulated. And if we are not conscious of what we're thinking, we're not conscious of what we're listening to feeds into our emotional state.

But it's almost like you're just living life thinking that everything's happening around you and this is just how you, it's like you're not awake. Does that make sense? Yeah. Right, Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (32:35)

Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that unconscious. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

How how do you if if if

What are some

I don't know how I feel about that word tools. I mean, that's a whole different conversation. I do I do agree with them when they're in alignment with the individual's lifestyle. Otherwise, one could argue they're they're more band-aidy. how do you what are some kind of general for the for the viewer and the listener here who might be thinking to themselves as they're watching this, like, wow, I just thought of something that might be that word trauma in my life. What are what are s and then you're ta you're you're you're you're

Maria Theelke (32:52)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (33:10)

You're alluding to connecting with ourselves, which I think of also with that of of slowing down. And then you're talking about habit stacking and being mindful. What are some what are some things you work with your clients on to help them be more conscious and mindful and in tune with how they're feeling and how they're thinking and maybe maybe share a little bit of not maybe all of your like, you know, secrets, but

Maria Theelke (33:25)

Mm-mm.

Eric Fischer (33:36)

Just a few things that come to mind for anybody watching or listening.

Maria Theelke (33:38)

Yeah.

So I have a PDF I use with my clients that I created and it helps them to begin to under... PDF.

Eric Fischer (33:45)

And what's a what's a what's a PF, sorry?

P PDF, sorry, sorry.

Maria Theelke (33:51)

Hahaha!

could give you guys a copy of that if somebody listening wants to do the JDF. I would just ask that it not be recopied because it is proprietary. But what I would say is that we need sometimes in order to become aware, we just need some education. Because I don't know about you guys, but I don't want to process. And this is just me. If I haven't learned about it, I more than likely are not going to process it because 0 to 18 months, I didn't trust. I never learned how to trust anyone.

except my dad. And so trusting people, has been always a struggle for me. Because I trusted the wrong people too. So there's that, it's like, know, it's all together. So the big piece here is one, okay, I need to know, are they auditory learner? Kinesthetic learner? Are they visual learner? So I listen for how they talk about stuff. You guys will hear me say, that book was so delicious.

I consume books like they're food. I love, love, love cooking and baking too. So I'm a hands-on learner. Cooking, baking, that's all hands-on. Okay, so I'm a hands-on learner. If I can hands-on learn something, I am right there with you. I can get it right now. If I ask them to listen to a book and they're like, I don't know, okay, what if you print this PDF? And you can then write it. Not everyone can handle.

just watching a video or just listening to something. If I know they have ADHD, I will ask them to listen and do something else at the same time. To keep their mind and unconscious mind both working simultaneously because that's what we need. Movement, go. And I don't care if you're mowing the lawn, cleaning, folding laundry, playing with the kids, you're listening, you're still hearing it.

So there's that, okay? But creating awareness is the big piece. Sometimes awareness comes through learning. Sometimes it comes through watching our kids interact with one another, because they're behaving how we behave. More times than not. And there's a two page, one week, just one week commitment to track how they're thinking, how they're feeling, and what are they doing to emotionally regulate.

Just one week, that's all I'm asking. Because if they can track just for one week this part of their life that maybe is just running on autopilot, that would be amazing. I have one client right now tracking the language of permission. And that's, say, and I do, I noticed this actually when we first started like a year and a half ago, Kevin, 100 % of my clients have a language of permission that says, I wanna go do this, I'm gonna go do it.

I deserve it. So I'm going to go have some. Or it's, I had a hard day. Or I just passed the liquor store, so I need to stop in and say hi. Or, you know, the language of permission permits us to cross our own boundaries. So track it. What are you hearing? In the tracking, they're creating the pause between the stimulus and the response. Just one week, that's all I ask. Can you do that?

Eric Fischer (36:31)

Yeah.

Maria Theelke (36:35)

Then they come to the session and we do an auditory scramble. We rewrite the neural pathway and bang, they're done. I'm just kidding. But no, that has happened with several of my clients. Actually one of them coaches with us now. she's so amazing. She inspires me. But if you can nail that sentence that sounds like when I'm exhausted, overwhelmed, and I have to deal with the kids and make supper and all I want to do is drink. I don't want to feel anymore. I just have to function, get this done and go to bed.

Eric Fischer (36:41)

Yeah.

Maria Theelke (37:01)

If we can nail that sentence down and that is the neural pathway, we can rewrite it in less than 30 minutes. It's incredible.

Kevin (37:09)

When you say get that sentence down, for example, in that example, like I gotta do this, I gotta do this, I gotta do this, you know, and I just need this to get through, maybe, or that's if that's what we're normally saying to ourselves.

Maria Theelke (37:10)

Meh.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, so I'm gonna grab an example.

Yeah, what are we saying to ourselves when we are feeling that need to drink?

and then I'm tell you somebody's sentence.

Kevin (37:34)

'Cause with that language of permission, yeah, I was thinking like, I'm allowing myself to type of thing, but I'm not sure if I'm getting that,

Maria Theelke (37:40)

Well, the language of permission.

I might have to go dig it out. So it sounds like, okay so.

When I feel, so it has, goes basically, the unconscious mind runs on the nervous system. The nervous system is a part of how we react, how we think, how we feel, how we behave, how we show up, and all 100 % of it can be rewritten. Not just due to neuroplasticity, but because we are continually evolving. And when someone is in a place of readiness and learning, they are malleable, ready to go.

And so when someone hits that pain point that Eric was talking about, the pain point gets them ready. Right? So, what was his sentence? It was so good too though. Let me give you one second. Eric, you talk, or one of you guys talk for a minute. I'm gonna grab a sentence for you.

Eric Fischer (38:28)

It

Yeah, it it I I I keep thinking about, you know, the the this in some maybe left of center adjacent way reminds me of when people talk about meaning in their life, you know, they become nihilistic and they and they say, well, I just you know, I don't have there's no meaning in my life and this and that and and and and we're all readers here. And the more you read people who are thinkers and philosophers and everything else, there's

There's an interesting way to look at it, right? Because when when you put when you put yourself on the edge between order and chaos, and you know that and and you know the feeling when you're when you know if you go in classroom A and you know everything already that the professor's talking about, that that classroom is on the boring side for you. It's repetitive. You've already been there, done that, you know the information. And then if you go to classroom B where you don't know anything, it's all over your head.

Maria Theelke (39:07)

Mm-hmm.

you

Eric Fischer (39:19)

And then if you go to the third classroom where you know a lot, but you don't know at all, and and you feel like you're being stretched. It's your it's it's the area in your in your mind and in your body in terms of how we feel, where you're you maximize engagement. That's putting yourself one foot in order, one foot in chaos, because your brain wants you in order.

Maria Theelke (39:38)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (39:43)

your potential is in chaos. And so that puts you on the edge. And that's where you'll find meaning in your life is when you have where you can intentionally design your life in such a way that you are constantly on the edge. And you're learning and that is has meaning tied to it and and associated with it.

And so when you when when I know you're looking this quote up right here, but it it in some weird way reminded me of like a positive affirmation and changing the narrative, metacognition, and then the meaning of life. And and that's when we're put on the edge and we're not cognitively fused to our thinking. So we can zoom out and navigate those waters, the environment.

which drives behavior and the people, where it is that we're going. And all of that is tangled up inside of creating meaning for one's life.

Maria Theelke (40:35)

Thank you.

Eric Fischer (40:36)

and we're and we're fixed and the

Kevin (40:36)

of life.

Eric Fischer (40:38)

in the past oftentimes too, and we're looking for ways to break free. And and that's another way you can think of the word happy too, is to be a forever learner be cut learner because now you have enthusiasm in your life for what it is that you're you're taking on. I also it also reminded me of the acronym HALT too. So when I'm when I'm hungry, I hear, I go have a drink. When I'm lonely, tired, etc. and that goes into those evening hours.

Kevin (40:42)

Yeah.

Maria Theelke (40:46)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin (40:49)

Yeah.

Maria Theelke (40:55)

Mmm.

Eric Fischer (41:03)

the transitions. and and I also thought too, like if since we're going off the cuff here, Kev, is like, you know, when you pay attention to what it is that you repeat, you can win at life. So we are we are creatures of habit and routine and things that we repeat. So like, you know, if you have if if you have young children and each time you put your child down to bed, it's a fight and a struggle and it's

Maria Theelke (41:05)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (41:27)

Tyranny, well, now we're talking about math. So if that 20 minutes each night, if you stack that and add that up, that's a meaningful chunk of time. and the transition from work going into the evening, that transition right there, you know, it's like your partner's in has been with the kids all day or or working at their own job, and now they're in the same transition window. It's like, what does that 20 minutes that you

That you go through every single day in your life. And when you look for transitions that repeat things that repeat in your life and you nail those down, fully understanding that you're gonna be foolish at the beginning of them, you're gonna have to iterate in order to perfect that 20 minutes from work into the evening or that time with your child, putting them to bed, those are magical times. And if you if you can master what repeats in your life, you can build one heck of a good life.

Kevin (42:09)

Yeah.

Maria Theelke (42:18)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin (42:18)

And that's

when you talk about meaning of life, like that's where I go with it, because there is no meaning of life. Life is meaningless. No. and I'm not saying life is meaningless, I'm saying like there is no one thing. I go with like more Victor Frankel where it's like each moment is determining our meaning and and that's a

Eric Fischer (42:24)

well that's annihilated. Well, and it's all rented, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kevin (42:37)

maybe aren't bringing maybe they're bringing meaning, but maybe they're it's not the best meaning. Or it's I'm repeating it, but I'm repeating it in a way that isn't helpful. How can I change that without trying to change everything all at once, without trying to, you know, just reboot everything and then, that didn't work. And then I'm just going to go back to my old patterns. It's like, how can I give myself time to change that and see it

Maria Theelke (42:51)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin (43:02)

differently. But that comes also with I think, you know, something that was brought up along the way here, all along the way, is just like that awareness. Like we have to know where those transition points are. We have to know where those pain points are, instead of just bl you know, automatically going through them because that's what we do every night or that's what we do in this situation all the time.

Eric Fischer (43:18)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and Maria, that's what you're saying. Let's let's take one week and let's observe, right? The observer. So let's observe before we try to change anything. Let's take a week and and collect some data. Let's do some writing down of how it is that we're thinking. What are, what does our morning routine and evening routine, what does it even look like? A lot of folks aren't even, you know, again, the unconscious is is become the observer.

Maria Theelke (43:19)

Thank you.

Kevin (43:23)

Yeah.

Maria Theelke (43:25)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (43:44)

And then we can tuck inside of there and you know, let's know the landscape of our life before we try to change anything.

Maria Theelke (43:45)

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So after observation, I have one client last year. Her sentence was, when I feel overwhelmed, devalued, put down, and controlled, I think, fuck you. Oops, sorry. And I am, I can escape into drinking. I can control drinking.

So here's how you do the extra. But okay, so then from a coaching perspective, that is her sentence. And you have to use, she has to use her words in her way, no matter whether it's explicit or not, it's okay. Because that is exactly what the neuro pathway is saying to her. If we do not elicit, do not elicit the actual neuro pathway that's running, the auditory scramble will not work. So we elicited the sentence.

Then I do what's called a break state. It's a part of the technique. I can email you guys the technique. I'd love to teach this to all of our coaches. It's an awesome technique. So then we break state. Sounds like this. Hey, so tell me about your favorite vacation. And their brain's going, wait a minute, I just got done telling you about the worst sentence ever. So they TDS all over the place. And their brain's going, wait, wait, wait, I can't keep up with what she's saying. And it pulls them out of their emotional state instantly. Because now,

My favorite vacation is when I went to Florida and floated in the ocean and told us no sharks, no sharks, no sharks. And it felt so good to just lay in the ocean. yeah, that was good. Okay, so when you're no longer feeling devalued, put down, criticized and controlled, like you just want to say, fuck you. How do you want to be thinking and feeling?

And she said, I want to feel calm. I want to feel at peace and in control of myself. I'm like, cool, let's do it. She's like, OK. Have we ever seen the movie Ferris Bueller? She's like, yeah. You know, I you remember that teacher at the front? She's like, yeah. I said, so here's how you're going to do the exercise.

When I feel overwhelmed, devalued, down, criticized, and controlled, I think, fuck you, and I can escape into drinking. I can control drinking. When I feel overwhelmed, devalued, put down, criticized, and on and on and on, and we progressively accentuate one word at a time. Then at the end of doing this, and the last word is accentuated, I'm gonna give you another set of directions.

They finish it. Then they have to read it all as loud, as happy, as excited, and an accent, goofy, however they want, as fast as they can. No Ferris Bueller. Twice. Back, and after that, backwards twice. If you see perfection, they have to clap their hands, tap their feet, something to throw the rhythm off.

Eric Fischer (46:03)

Mm-hmm.

Maria Theelke (46:09)

Because a of times you'll get people striving for perfection. Perfection won't work. So you've got to make it uneven.

And then you future pace. Take a big deep breath. And you go and use a linguistic sentence that future paces them into the future right now. Go to that moment right now when you would have felt devalued, overwhelmed, put down and criticized. How are you thinking and feeling right now?

Do you see the loop, the linguistic loop? They can go there right now. And they go, wait a minute.

Nothing.

Okay? Yes you are. Because you just installed a new neuro pathway and you got rid of the old one. Our words have so much power you guys. How we say it, what we say, what we're telling ourselves. You can either realist it in neuro pathway or even get rid of one. It's really freaking amazing. It's so awesome. But so this is where it's not just about this one week of observation. That's just the beginning of awareness.

Eric Fischer (46:58)

Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Very beginning, yeah.

Kevin (46:59)

Yeah.

Maria Theelke (47:00)

You can change

anything. Literally, we are amazing human beings. It is really incredible what we can do to regain control, self-control, not others control, self-control, emotional regulation. It's never gonna be perfect. You just gotta accept that. In order to really be securely attached to ourselves and others,

and to see others as flawed and loved as well as ourselves. Because ultimately, when we're either all good or all bad, we don't accept ourselves or others either. We gotta move into the in-between, where we're allowed to change and be flawed and loved. And that's basically how you do the auditory scramble. There's a lot of techniques I'd love to teach all of you guys. It's so cool.

Eric Fischer (47:41)

Mm-hmm.

Maria Theelke (47:41)

But we are amazing human beings and everyone's journey is so 100 % unique to them. And our purpose here, I will say, is to love and be loved.

Eric Fischer (47:50)

Hm. Yeah. Yeah. and then I imagine after when there's buy-in and action behind that, and then they start to believe that this is worth it, these exercises, and then they start to see and feel how it's starting to shape them. a as it relates to alcohol, out so so therefore they have more wisdom, more confidence, the nervous system is calm, they understand more.

Maria Theelke (47:51)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (48:18)

And so the the the need, the urge, if you will, to escape downwards into novelty. We're talking about alcohol here here, but there's a lot of escape. There's a lot of novelty that we can throw in that bucket. Alcohol's a the conversation for us right now. But now over some time they don't do they do not feel the need to go escape into the bottle or have a glass of wine because they understand themselves.

Maria Theelke (48:26)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Just one of them.

Mm-mm.

Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (48:42)

They accept themselves, they accept the other folks as well that may be involved in any what whatever that situation plural it is and are, then they are f then they become okay where their feet are.

Maria Theelke (48:48)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Well, so it's more about coming back to yourself because when you're back to yourself, everything is different. Your lens is different. When your lens becomes clearer. Okay, so this is the Meta-Head. Try to get that in the camera. This is in the PDF. The event happens and here's the response, a stimulus event, right, and response. This is NLP 101. So we go, the event happens, it becomes.

Eric Fischer (48:59)

Mm-hmm.

Right. Right. Yeah.

Maria Theelke (49:21)

Deleted, distorted, generalized, it goes through our file folders that are programmed into us before the age of six, becomes an internal representation, physiology, a state, and a behavior. This happens in less than a split second. This has changed forever when someone does an auditory scramble.

because they just cleaned up their file folders. A belief, an inner vow, a memory has changed from having power over them to no longer having power over them. It doesn't change the memory, it's just the sting is removed. Decisions are being changed and attitudes about what's going on. Look, you know, this person's being disrespectful, but doesn't mean I have to feel devalued.

But if they have a trauma wound this big, or this big...

They're going to feel devalued over and over and over and over again.

unless they choose to rewrite that neuropathway.

I used to have a neuro pathway that was something like, I have to sacrifice the best of who I am in order to be loved.

do that again. But I never did it consciously. Never. And it wasn't until I began observing myself. I love that, by the way. I tell a lot of my partners that had been betrayed or in relationships where they're being disrespected, I want you to go sit on the bleachers and observe the game. Know the game, don't play the game. Observe the game. We don't participate in it any longer. But we also shouldn't participate in our own games either.

Observe it. Get to know it. That way you can change it.

Eric Fischer (50:39)

Yeah, you can take you can take the reins back.

Kevin (50:39)

Yeah, yeah.

Maria Theelke (50:41)

Mm-hmm. Taking your power back, Mm-hmm.

Kevin (50:41)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (50:43)

Yeah. Yeah.

Love it. Love it.

Kevin (50:45)

Yeah. Definitely.

Yeah. yeah, thanks for sharing that.

one of you can take it as you give describe your coaching style in one word.

Maria Theelke (50:53)

Mmm. Observe it.

Eric Fischer (50:53)

Hm. Cure

okay okay, yeah. Curious. Curious. Was it? Yeah.

Maria Theelke (50:57)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin (50:59)

That was mine. Yeah.

I like that. what's a moment with a client that changed how you coach? Something that made you rethink your approach. Anything come to mind there? Again, we could say pass if we want. I'll I'll introduce the pass. You only get one though.

Maria Theelke (51:11)

Hmm.

It was like, I felt like a baseball bat up beside the head, which I do know what that feels like, by the way, unfortunately. It was, she said, I'm just not myself when this is happening. And I was like, because she's not with herself. She's out there in left field and the ball went to the right field. She can't catch herself. She's in the wrong direction. She's totally disconnected from herself.

She doesn't know how to get home. I was like.

Like attachment theory, polyvago theory, Gottman it all came crashing together and I was like whoa this is so good. Like my brain is scribbling as fast as I can. I'm like thank you so much you just taught me something. She was like what? And she's all, it was so fun. It was great.

Kevin (51:46)

Yeah.

Yeah.

what's a moment with a client that changed how you coach? Something that made you maybe rethink your approach.

Eric Fischer (51:58)

yeah. I that's a that's a good question. I I don't know that I have one specific client. However, early on years ago, I I I was I would come in with a so at the time I was reading a lot of yoon, the unconscious and archetypes and and and you know self-actualis individuation and these things. And and I

Maria Theelke (52:13)

Mmm.

Eric Fischer (52:20)

I had I I I can remember thinking that that's where, well, that worked for me and my rehab and all this. And so that should be where the starting point is for others. And that was very, I'd say quickly I I realized pretty quick that that's not the way to do it. I mean, that was a long time ago. You know, that was a long time ago. And I think that you're you're always

Maria Theelke (52:37)

Yeah.

Kevin (52:37)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (52:41)

you're always learning, you know, like because like they they say a therapist should always be in therapy. And I feel like a coach should always be whether it's therapy or talking to another coach to or and certainly journaling. Because we have blind spots too. And and I I take the approach now that and Rhea you said this too, you know, we meet where they're at and there's curiosity and asking good questions and seeing them in in unconditional positive regard, which I

Maria Theelke (52:48)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

See you.

Eric Fischer (53:08)

I do believe in that's Carl Rogers, person centered you know, therapeutic approaches. But there's not there's not one way. And so I'm learning, I get taught all the time. Like my clients teach me all the time. I'm always trying to kind of ask better questions and take more time and be more curious and and and that also and that also means being okay when there's quiet time because

Maria Theelke (53:31)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (53:31)

Oftentimes we also feel like we need to kind of jump in and and feel that that that silence. But that oftentimes as well is where some magic can happen and some beautiful kind of aha moments is in the quiet. less can be more at times. And so, yeah, I mean my I think my fundamental view is I I learn from all my clients all the time, really.

Maria Theelke (53:40)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kevin (53:53)

Definitely. Yeah, thanks for sharing that, both of you. We'll do two more. if you had a theme song that played every time you logged into a coaching call, what would it be?

Maria Theelke (54:01)

You go first, Eric.

Eric Fischer (54:02)

the wow, okay. see like the jokester in me wants to say something, but I can't say that right now. Like easy easy e or Tupac or something from when we were like twelve thirteen years old or fourteen. But no, I you know, that's a good question. I'd probably say something something country.

Yeah. I don't know. That's a I don't really have an answer for piece of music going into a a session. Maria, what's a what'd you what'd you say, Kevin? What'd you what was your music?

Maria Theelke (54:24)

Hmm.

Kevin (54:28)

I I think it I think I said essentially it depends. Like it either depends on my mood at the time or depends on maybe you know, if I'm going into a particular client, it's like, okay, what what do they need? Or what do I, you know, what have we been talking about? What do you know, how do I need to approach this? And and I j I joke that the I'm like my ADHD brain is my or my AD my new ADHD song lately is the one that's on Instagram all the time now on my feed of that go by

Maria Theelke (54:28)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (54:32)

Yeah.

Kevin (54:54)

The Chemical Brothers. so that's like the song that's just on repeat in my head because I hear it every time I open up Instagram. and the other one I was just I kind of the generic one was like my song, you know, in my early days was Fear by Blue October. but yeah, for me I was like it depends.

Maria Theelke (55:11)

Mm-hmm.

Let's see, mine would be Eye of the Tiger. Probably that one. That was a big one.

Kevin (55:17)

I I actually

think Frank said, and you can't pick I the tiger or something like that. I think he said that for some reason. I don't know why. Maybe it was too obvious.

Eric Fischer (55:21)

Ha ha

Maria Theelke (55:23)

That's funny.

That's funny. No, of Tiger, Wicked, what's that, Divine Gravity, which is seven minutes long, so that's a challenging one to have as an intro. But I would pick something everyone could sing to, because singing regulates the nervous system. You know, it does. When you sing, when you hum, it tones the vagal nerve.

Kevin (55:35)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (55:35)

No.

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Maria Theelke (55:47)

and it helps to calm within two to three minutes. So I would choose something that somebody could sing to. Actually, that's one of my tips is I have all my clients make a list of 10 things. That was one of my assignments for my new client today is to have observations of the language of permission and make a list of 10 things that you know makes you happy, including a playlist of songs that you can sing.

Kevin (56:13)

Yeah. Yeah.

Right, well we'll we'll we'll skip the the other questions for now. We're coming to the end here, so anything else that either you'd like to to share after you know, to just kinda

Maria Theelke (56:24)

Mmm.

Kevin (56:25)

Finish up here before we head before we outro it.

Maria Theelke (56:28)

Mmm, I don't know, what do you think, Eric?

Eric Fischer (56:30)

No, I'd I'd I'd say I'd I'd I'd just leave leave it with you know, you do have the ability to change and you do have the ability to take your life back, it's never too late, and get help and start working one foot in front of the other slowly because it stacks those small little wins add up quickly and you can change.

Maria Theelke (56:37)

you

And I would add to that is, would ditto all of that, but I would also say change can feel really scary. All change can feel really scary sometimes. when change means we have to sit in uncomfortable conversations, uncomfortable acknowledgments or awarenesses to remember to come back to you.

Eric Fischer (56:51)

You can change.

Mm-hmm.

Maria Theelke (57:13)

that this is your safe space. Your body and your mind are your safe space. And if the thoughts and things going on inside your mind are not safe, write them down, get rid of them. And this is, I'm gonna launch into journaling for just a minute. Anna Runko is the founder of the Crappy Childhood Fairy and she has this thing called the Daily Practice and it goes right up Kevin's alley of journaling.

She talks about healing CPTSD and no, this is not a disclaimer for healing anything. You do your own research people, whoever's listening to this. But journaling brings us from an emotional state to the prefrontal cortex down onto the paper, which then can heal things inside of us that we're maybe scared to process. She says, don't even worry about your feelings. Journal about your fears and your resentments. And then do a quick meditation.

This is one of the greatest things that you can do to help yourself feel safe in here is to know that it doesn't have to stay in here. It can go onto that paper. It can be burned afterwards if you want. One of the greatest things I do with my clients is an anger lesson.

Kevin (58:09)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (58:14)

Mm-hmm.

Maria Theelke (58:14)

and then roll up a towel and whack the floor and swear and cuss and do whatever you have to do. As long as nobody's around. But, don't hurt anything or break anything. Well, I did have one lady go to a smash room because she really needed to smash some stuff so she went to a smash room. What are they called you guys?

Kevin (58:28)

Yeah, I know what you mean though.

Maria Theelke (58:29)

Anger room? No.

We break stuff. It's fun. Anyway, and I did tell her go to Goodwill, buy a stack of plates. Yeah, I him, smash him.

Kevin (58:32)

Yeah. Smash room sounds good.

Break room, rage room.

Maria Theelke (58:40)

But first you have to journal because you don't know what you're actually like processing. We gotta get that off of our bodies. The body does keep the score. How do you get rid of it? One of them is through journaling. Change can be hard, but journaling makes it easier. Really easier. And so even when it's uncomfortable, put it on paper. Even when it's hard, put it on paper, but reach out to somebody safe.

Eric Fischer (58:53)

Mm-hmm.

Maria Theelke (59:02)

Coaching is a really important part of a lot of people's journeys because we're a safe space for people to come to and say, guess what? I lied last time. I actually haven't been AF for 42 days. It's only been 31. That happened today with one of my clients I've been seeing for a year and a half.

And I said, it's all right. I'm proud of you for owning your truth. The truth sets you free. When we're in truth, our nervous system can regulate and stop panicking.

It's okay. This is a part of your journey. What did you learn? You needed that lesson. What was it? I'm not going to judge you. I have no space to judge you. I'm just as flawed as the next person, if not more. And so coaching at Reframe gives people a platform, a safe space, a connection, where they know they're not going to be judged, criticized, condemned, put down all the things.

that create attachment wounds or teaching safe attachment unconsciously.

All change is at the unconscious level. When we have the awareness, we can then go into the unconscious and change it. Coaching is necessary. The meetings are necessary. Journaling is necessary. Because that's how you see real transformation. That's how I would leave it. But I hope if someone hears this and they're like, gosh, I don't know if I want to coach. Just schedule a quick 30 minute session with the coach of your choice.

Kevin (1:00:05)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:00:05)

Mm-hmm.

Maria Theelke (1:00:13)

It doesn't have to be a whole package. Do one session. Make sure they're a good fit. Not every coach is going to be a good fit, and that's okay. Try a different coach. Just know that it's okay to be where you're at, that we're proud of you wherever you're at, and that the journey is not linear. It's a big old mess. But we're willing to walk alongside you guys.

Kevin (1:00:30)

Yeah. Yep.

Maria Theelke (1:00:33)

and it's an honor.

Kevin (1:00:34)

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, thanks, Maria. Appreciate you sharing with us today. Thanks, Eric. and thank you all for listening to another episode of the Reframable Podcast brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you.

Maria Theelke (1:00:38)

Yeah.

Kevin (1:00:56)

If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. And I wanna thank you again for listening. Be sure to come back for another episode. Have a great day.