Self-Care August: Small Steps, Real Change, and Setting Boundaries

In this episode you'll get: a working definition of self-care that goes beyond indulgence and rest; why "should," "try," and "all in" are protection mechanisms worth noticing in your own language; the case for meeting yourself where you are (75% today is your 100%) instead of chasing an idealized best; how starting impossibly small — one page, one post, lacing up your shoes — compounds into change you never planned for; and why taking care of yourself first isn't selfish but the thing that gives you capacity to show up for others. Along the way, Kevin shares how a throwaway suggestion from his therapist to "post better pictures" turned one Instagram account into a whole new career, and both coaches dig into how self-care has to evolve as you do — because what worked for you five years ago may no longer fit who you're becoming.

Whether you're cutting back or alcohol-free, this one's an invitation to answer a simple question for yourself this month: how are you going to take care of yourself, even just a little differently?

The Reframeable podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the #1 app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. If you have a topic you'd like us to cover on the podcast, send an email to podcast@reframeapp.com or, if you're on the Reframe app, give it a shake and let us know what you want to hear.

Transcript

 Kevin (00:00)

Welcome everyone to another episode of the Reframable Podcast, the podcast that brings you people stories and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship, not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more. Because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass. This podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol.

It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you.

My name is Kevin Bellach. I'm a certified professional recovery coach and the head of coaching at the Reframe app.

Eric Fischer (00:38)

And my name is Eric. I'm also a coach at Reframe and I focus on lifestyle design and addiction. It's great to be here with you, Kev. Intentional living.

Kevin (00:46)

Lifestyle design. Yeah, I like that.

Eric Fischer (00:49)

Intentional living. Yeah, intentional living.

Kevin (00:52)

That sounds like right on just hearing that sounds right on par with our topic for today, which self-care. Yeah. now I've shared this in meetings before. I'm like, even I might give everybody here, you know, listening, maybe you just heard what we just said and gave that big eye roll. Like, God, we're talking about self-care. maybe that's just me though. I don't know. We could talk about that.

Eric Fischer (01:15)

Two men, two two

two grown men talking about self care, nonetheless.

Kevin (01:18)

Yeah, exactly.

yeah, the but we'll we'll get into that. But bear with us. We're it's not, you know, all the luxury

Eric Fischer (01:27)

Yeah, be patient.

Kevin (01:28)

and spa, you know, treatments and all that that come to my mind, with that buzzword, it seems like. But we're coming out of, you know, dry and damp January challenge in the in the app. And you know, a lot of people do that. It's kinda like,

Dry January. You know, dry July is a good reset point during the year. but yeah, self-care August is going to be the challenge. We have a monthly challenge in the app where in addition to our normal content, we have, you know, new challenges every month. And it just focuses on a topic, or, you know, it it might be that, you know, dry or damp January, July, sober.

Or d or damp October type of things. but other months we do, you know, mental health May challenge, intentional June, you know, we do we talk about habits, self care, you know, a lot of different topics just to to kind of break it up, right? And change the

I don't want to say that. Break up the

Eric Fischer (02:26)

Change

up the yeah, change up the rhythm. Keep it new, keep it fresh, keep it, you

Kevin (02:29)

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (02:31)

know, we have positive and negative emotion in life, keep it positive, forward looking, growth mindset.

Kevin (02:37)

Yeah. And sometimes I hear people say, like, well, I don't want to do the challenge because you know, I I'm already doing the daily tasks. I don't want to add one more thing. To which I say, sign up. And

Eric Fischer (02:48)

Yeah.

Kevin (02:49)

you don't have to, you know, because you can do it and and the good thing about ch our challenges, and then we'll get into self-care, but I'm kind of like focused on this now. Like the good thing about our challenges is you can do it by yourself or you can do it in a group, either people you know, or you can just sign up for

you know, a group and and you'll get assigned to you know, have people that you can talk to and interact with. and, you know, maybe you, you know, I've heard a lot of people who carry on with those same groups that they get attached to, you know, in the future. or you try again next month and do it with somebody, you know, a different group. but it you know, it just offers that you don't have to complete it. It can just be more content that

you know, you can focus on. You can see, you know, if you want to watch the video or read the article that day, great. If not, you know, that's fine too.

Eric Fischer (03:38)

Yeah, yeah. And you and like you said, you don't have to do it, right? And so it's a buffet of value add information that Reframe provides. You can pick and choose what it is you want to, you know, get involved with. And and the simple act of being at Reframe is self-care. So you can you can kind of take it as as you need it and add and subtract, and you can form your own group inside of Reframe too.

Kevin (04:02)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (04:03)

there's I I work with a lot of folks who

and it's really cool because people meet up. They meet in person. They go get coffee or, you

Kevin (04:09)

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (04:11)

know, go on a walk together and and so they're they're not just virtual. It is, you know, a lot of folks within our community do meet up in person as well. So that's

Kevin (04:20)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (04:21)

that's pretty cool.

Kevin (04:22)

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I've done several of those and yeah, it's always good to you know, virtual the access of virtual is and the convenience is great. but sometimes yeah, it's good to get that in person meet up as well if you can. But but

Eric Fischer (04:38)

Yeah. But yeah, depending

on how how do you wanna how do you wanna get into self-care? I mean, there's a number of different ways we can look at it. It's become at scale, especially in the West, like you mentioned, a fancy kind of buzzword. and that ties in other buzzwords too, like vulnerability and authenticity, and there's others out there as well. And and and and the more we hear a certain word, the less

Impactful or phrase, the less impactful it tends to become.

Kevin (05:06)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (05:07)

you know, you hear this all the time when we're young, at least I'm I come from from a sports background, and it's like practice like you play in the game. That goes in one ear and out the other, you know,

Kevin (05:15)

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (05:16)

for for athletes because we hear it all the time. what's your what's your thought on that? How do you think about self-care?

Kevin (05:22)

Self care. yeah, I feel like it's very it's like you know, mindfulness is great, but what does mindfulness mean to you? Yeah, I think that's the question because mindfulness can mean a a million different things, or I'll I'll just say many different things. Same thing with self-care, but nowadays it's like everything's talking about mindfulness, everything's talking about self-care. I look at self-care, I know it sounds kind of

It feels stupid to say this. I don't know if stupid's the right word, but it's like it's just taking care of yourself. It's just looking at ways to take care of yourself. Because, and I say it like that to my, you know, for me personally, because it's it does bring up this more like indulgent, luxurious type of activity that I should be doing if I'm if I'm practicing self-care, right? It doesn't feel like

day-to-day stuff I should be doing. It's like, it'll be nice to do or whatever. And so I've over the years I've kind of changed it to, and I've shared this before in meetings or, you know, other places where I like to look at it as almost a prescription. like what's my self-care prescription for this week? And, you know, how many and you could look at, you know, 'cause I like to play around with that thought. Like, how many, you're the doctor, right? How many doses of movement do I need this week?

How many doses of, you know, this? How many reps of whatever push ups do I want to get in? And so it's not necessarily just all all the things that feel good. So what do I need? What do I need to take care of myself? Do I need a, you know, how many salads do I need this week?

joked about this before too. I've like, I can't not say it like, now all the how many salads do I need to avoid this week so I, you know, don't have ill effects

Eric Fischer (07:03)

Ha ha ha.

Kevin (07:05)

from from things. no, but yeah, like I look at it more as I try and be like, well, what do I what do I need to focus on? And that can change from day to day, week to week, you know, season to season and so on. And my my interests might change too as to what I focus on. how do you

See it in general.

Eric Fischer (07:25)

Yeah, yes. It sounds similar. my I I felt and and I you know that y that that that word self-care has turned into not for everybody, obviously, important to to maybe mention there, is the indulgent, the the unilateral and subjective lust and pleasure. So what do I feel like doing today rather than

What am I gonna do today that's gonna help me be better tomorrow? Who am I becoming? And there's sacrifice and discipline and that, and then there's there's freedom on the other side. And so I I view I view s I view self-care for myself like like I work out to increase my capacity to do more tomorrow compared to today. So whether that's writing, journaling, resting, mindfulness.

and that and can that can also include taking a taking a really hot bath after a hard day that included a workout to let my body and my muscles soak and relax and and recover too. So so my my my deep my my my deeper view of it for myself is which is on the lifestyle longevity side, which is health span related and focused is everything I do for myself.

Is paying it into the paying it off into the future, no matter what it is. And so that's my that's for me, my personally, my view of self-care. And that does include a balance, you know, like going and getting it having a spa day is important. But if it's but if it's rooted in, well, I'm gonna take a day off simply because I feel like it and I'm just gonna go and dodge for the day, like I think we need to be careful on what that has turned into. you like I

Kevin (09:10)

Like if that's the

if that's the metric that we use that I I practice self care, but I can only do it if I do that. If I only take the day off, if I Yeah, yeah.

Eric Fischer (09:18)

But what yeah, but what is self care? Yeah. Is it

is it Netflix and taking the day off and being in the spa and binge binge watching Netflix? I mean, there's a time and a place for all that, certainly. A hundred percent.

Kevin (09:28)

I was gonna say, yeah, what however many

examples you gave, I was gonna be like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, right. Because

Eric Fischer (09:33)

Yeah.

Kevin (09:34)

it is you know, totally up to us to determine that. But I like how you mentioned about like the it's it's delayed returns even, or I'm getting returns on it in the future too, because I took

Eric Fischer (09:47)

Yeah. So I

Kevin (09:48)

care of myself today, and that can be

Eric Fischer (09:50)

Yeah.

Kevin (09:51)

many different things, right?

Eric Fischer (09:52)

Yeah. I when we picked this topic, I went into my journal and I and I pulled up, you know, a version of self care and I just put a couple of notes in. Like training my body is because I believe I believe training my body allows me to serve at a higher level for longer. You know, I study psychology because understanding myself is a part of growth. That's self care for me.

Rest is recuperating. Sobriety is the most important part of self-care for my life because it requires sacrifice short term for long-term freedom. and so everything that I do when we talk about alignment is future orienting into a vision that I get to build. And I think that's important to to for people to understand as well, is that is that we have the choice, we can choose.

We can choose what self-care looks like for ourselves and we can choose where what it is that we want to do and where it is that we want to go and not to neglect other people in our life, but if we just simplify it and give it choice, the individual does have choice in what it is that they wanna do and what it is that they say no to. And and then in in in the worlds of self care, I don't I don't know if it I don't know if it it's big enough for me to think that it a whole lot of different ways of thinking about it can be allowed inside of the realm and

bucket of how we define self-care.

Kevin (11:12)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (11:13)

my view of it is is growth oriented. What I do for myself

Kevin (11:16)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (11:17)

today, what I put in my body is self-care, the nutrition, how I treat my body in the gym or on a walk, that's self-care. How much sleep I get is self-care. how I journal is self-care, and that's all paying it off into the future. That's growth.

Kevin (11:30)

Yeah. Yeah. so what what's that?

Eric Fischer (11:33)

Reflecting, being introspeing

introspective is self care.

Kevin (11:38)

Yeah. And I yeah, that's a necessary

Part being that being reflective. reflection is the fertilizer for growth. That's one of my

Eric Fischer (11:47)

There it is.

Kevin (11:48)

workout things I do. That's what the trainer says. and I was like, yeah, that's good.

Eric Fischer (11:53)

That's good.

Kevin (11:55)

because then that's where because I think we do need to check in on ourselves and periodically, but periodically that sounds like

Yeah, whenever I get to it, periodically I'll check in on myself. I mean like daily, weekly, and different different ways. Like what I check in on myself daily is gonna be different than what I check in on myself like on the weekend and check in like, okay, how am I how did this week go? How is, you know, what do I got the week this week coming up? but that's how we can adjust. one of the things with

I shared this on the journaling meeting I hosted on Friday. About my reminder I have set at 8 30 every Friday night, I get a reminder that pops up that says, Chick chickady, check yourself before you wreck yourself. So I exactly, which

Eric Fischer (12:44)

I like it. And you've got a little humor in there with that with that too. Which is important.

Kevin (12:49)

humor for me, yeah, is always important as a it it helps connect me with that versus

What are you doing for yourself this weekend? And be like, okay, done, cancel. But like I know what I feel whenever I read that little line, lyric, whatever you want to call it. you know, and it kind of just makes me chuckle, but it also makes me pause. And that reminder I have set is for me to ask at that time, what am I doing for myself this weekend? Or, you know, and that could be with other people, or, you know, but what am I doing to kind of

recharge a bit and s and not just let the weekend get sucked up with, you know, more work or more stuff that or just nothing. what can I do for myself that I want to do? and it doesn't have to be anything big, like you know, it doesn't like two weeks ago it was World Cup and we went and saw the Odyssey. this past weekend it was I there's some specific things I wanted to

clean, you know, do in this room with my closet and bring up. I have a inversion table that is in the basement that I use for my back. And I got it years ago and it's in the basement. And I don't always go down to the basement. So I brought it up here. We have an area that I could put it and I'm already using it more now in the last two days than I have in the last two months. but

You know, that was what I wanted to do for myself this weekend was clean up clean up some things and organize stuff so to set myself up better for this week.

Eric Fischer (14:20)

Right. Yeah, that's paying yourself into the future. So

Kevin (14:22)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (14:22)

that's a great self-care. Maybe something, you know, may you might be able to play around with the definition of self-care that that that is something like anything that benefits you, the future, anything, anything you do where your feet are that benefits you where your feet will be tomorrow, and as a consequence of that action also benefits other people, can be defined as self-care. Because anything that

Anything that anything you do where your feet are that harms you tomorrow is pathological.

Kevin (14:56)

Okay. And that's I was thinking about that before when you were mentioning, I can't remember which part you were mentioning that this came up, where I was like, you know, I'm like anything can be self-care. And obviously, what we talk about a lot was like alcohol. I'm like, cause I would have thought in the past for me, like, that's self-care. I'm relaxing, right? but that's a good distinction right there, is that it's not

necessarily it it's not you know we could get into the nuance of maybe you know whether we're mind mindfully moderating or not drinking or or we're not in a good place with that but in and of itself it's you know not a health food is is the way I like to simply

Eric Fischer (15:37)

Mm-hmm. Right.

Kevin (15:38)

put it right so it it isn't necessarily meeting that qualification that you just made right because it is taken away. I there are

plenty of plenty of plenty of science out there, you know, about what you know alcohol does to us. So yeah definitely the mal the more maladaptive coping mechanisms and things that we use. And I like to like peel that back and like anything like that, it's like, well what am I trying to get with that? Like

Eric Fischer (16:06)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin (16:06)

and I look at that a lot. Like what is this bringing me? Is this

connecting me because I'm going out with with friends to and it just happens to be going to a bar because it's easy. am I do I need to relax? And then it's like looking at that thing because alcohol is never the, in my opinion, like never the thing we're we're we're after, even though we think it is. Like it's never the thing we're after. It's gives us the thing that we're after. It's helping us connect. We're bored

Eric Fischer (16:31)

Right, okay.

Kevin (16:32)

and we don't want to be bored. So we're gonna sedate ourselves. We

Eric Fischer (16:35)

Yeah,

we can be funny.

Kevin (16:36)

It helps me

relax and and de stress or helps me, yeah, forget a little bit about being sad in that moment.

Eric Fischer (16:43)

Uh-huh.

Kevin (16:44)

But it's always that it's always that thing that it gives us is what we're looking for, right?

Eric Fischer (16:50)

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In a very twisted kind of way. It's it's it's interesting how the brain really latches on. I mean, I I can remember and and we have clients and we hear it at reframe, you hear it on podcasts everywhere else. It's like and I know we're kind of seguing maybe a little bit outside of self-care, but it's all important. It's

Kevin (17:09)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (17:09)

like I can tell myself, I can look myself in the mirror and say what I'm doing is wrong and that it's hurting me, it's hurting my family, it's hurting everybody.

I'm in contact with, but yet I still do it.

Kevin (17:22)

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (17:23)

But yet I but yet I still do it. And that's a

and that's and that and that's the ultimate, you know, that's a that's a struggle. That's a struggle for for for all of us. you know, and that and and that takes that and that takes us kind of into that word should, right? So anything that we know that we should be doing, we need to pe it pay attention to that word. Like I, you know, I I should be at the gym. I could be at the gym, but I'm watching this Netflix show. So it's it's top of brain, it's front of mind. We're aware of it.

But yet we don't do it. So therefore, you know, there's willful blindness in there. There's cognitive almost distortions, cognitive dissonance, certainly. but that's but but that's you know, what we should do, what we could do, those two words we can latch on and pay attention to those and maybe do some journaling to figure out what that means for us on a maybe a peel back a layer or two and

Kevin (18:12)

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (18:14)

tuck inside of that because self-care is inside of that world.

Kevin (18:19)

Y asking like, well, I I think like stopping and be like, whoa, why did I just say I should do this? Like obviously you don't have to do it as dramatic as I just did with semi jazz hands. yeah. but

Eric Fischer (18:29)

Whoa whoa.

Kevin (18:31)

but whoa, like why did I say I should do that? Like, where did that come from? Did I am I just hearing other people doing that? but what what am I l what do I think that's going to do for me?

that I feel like I'm lacking in right now.

Eric Fischer (18:48)

That's good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin (18:50)

And and I I I gotta say it because I love this phrase, don't should all over yourself, right? I mean,

Eric Fischer (18:56)

Yeah, yeah.

Kevin (18:57)

recognize the shoulds because I don't think because if we wanted to do it or were doing it or were you know, really in that place where it's like, yes, I want to do this, we would say that. I'm going to do this. I want to.

do this. We wouldn't say, I should do this.

Eric Fischer (19:17)

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin (19:19)

And

so like the language, I think I feel like somewhat annoying some of the times. I don't know if you do this. Like I catch myself and then therefore I catch other people. And I like I've had people share like when they start saying something like, I shouldn't say should, or I they say like one word for me is like try. if I say,

Eric Fischer (19:37)

yeah.

Kevin (19:38)

Okay, I'm yeah, I'm gonna try and do that. Right now, I know in my head as soon as I hear that word.

Whether I do it out loud, if I'm sitting here to myself, I was like, all right, are you really gonna try and do that? Or no? Because anytime

I say try, that means I'm not gonna do it. And so I'm gonna stop and be like, Am I going to do that? Or am I going to try and do that? Meaning it's never gonna happen, because that's

Eric Fischer (20:02)

Uh-huh.

Kevin (20:03)

just something I say, just kind of like, yeah, I should do that. It's like, yeah.

Eric Fischer (20:08)

Well, it's a protection mechanism. That's a

that's a that's an unconscious protection mechanism, right? Because and and that and that also ties in that that that all in. You see that you see this on T shirts, like the high school athletes, I'm all in and all this.

Kevin (20:21)

that was

I think w I think the year the Cavs finally won the NBA championship with the Braun, I don't know how what year that was, like ten years ago or whatever. I think that was our slogan. It was all over Cleveland, all in. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (20:33)

All in. All

in. Yeah. how about not let's not talk about this today, but LeBron in Philly. whoa. For the basketball fans out there.

Kevin (20:40)

I have zero idea. I yeah, I I have say I have zero

idea of of any of that. So I don't know how I missed that, but

Eric Fischer (20:47)

Yeah, I but but

but yeah, he just eight million bucks, he wants another ring, all this other stuff. But you know, like Tim Grover, who's a athlete performance guy, he's his definition of all in is early mornings, late nights, few friends, and buckets of blood, sweat and tears. Because people can't keep up. So you're gonna be lonely and you and you're not gonna be great by

showing up at 10 in the morning because someone else is already there earlier than you. So it's it's early mornings, late nights. I think that's on the extreme side of all in. But it but that try that try, that should, that could, and then self-care, it's a and let me know your thoughts on this. So the all in, it's an unconscious protection mechanism so that we do not have to say that we failed.

Right. And you can think about this when if you and I were playing one-on-one pickup basketball and we're both in high school, and I beat you, and you come back to me and you're like, well, fish, if I tried, I would have beat you. Right. If I would

Kevin (21:51)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (21:51)

have tried, I would have beat you. But that's only a protection mechanism. So we we don't say that we failed. But you know, the beauty, the like the beautiful thing that one should really deeply consider is how much potential are you leaving at leaving at the

table. How much of your untapped potential are you not tapping into, so to say, by saying, well, I tried. It just like that 80%, you know, like that goes back kind of to the 80-20 is like if you're 100% and you give it your best efforts and you can look in the mirror and say, I did honesty, honestly, give it my all, well then you can sleep easy at night.

But that also terrorizes people on the unconscious level because if we don't give it a hundred percent, we don't know what a hundred percent would have looked like. We don't know what could have happened.

Kevin (22:45)

Yeah. Yeah. So that definitely goes to the protection mechanism too, but I'll argue that no one ever gives it a hundred percent because no one knows what their hundred percent is, first of all. Because if yeah. Well, because

Eric Fischer (22:56)

Okay. Yeah. Okay. I like that I I like the way we're peeling back layers now, Kev. We're getting into some philosophy. That's true. Yeah, subjective, yeah.

Kevin (23:04)

and I would argue that and this is some people might say, this is a cop out, like you don't know, like I I always use the

40%. Like if I wake up in the morning and I'm my back hurts, like I have issues, my, you know, I got a l I got a l busy day. I didn't get a lot of sleep, blah, blah, blah. And I'm 40% that day. Like that's like the max output I can give. And if I give that 40%, like then I gave 100%. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (23:31)

That's your hunter, right. Yeah.

Kevin (23:33)

Now, like I said, that can be something where how do you measure this stuff and all that? But it's like meeting yourself where you are is important versus

some idealized version of what my hundred percent is. Cause I think that's what we all do is like, what do I ideally want to have happen, whether it's with, you know, whether it's with my job or my health or self-care or whatever. And if we don't do that idealized version of it, then we didn't give our all, we think. But that we can't give our all. Like we don't

Have enough energy to put in all of these different places. So I think we definitely have to be selective with how we approach that sometimes. Yeah, I I remember I was reading we did Inner Excellence last year for Book Club, and he talked about, he gave this quote by somebody. I could pull it out and if we if we want it, but I mean it's a long one. But he talked about the three ways to that like uses of the word best, and it's like the best, like.

You're the like I'm thinking like Jordan, right? and like the best in some situation. Obviously that's subjective too. And and then there's your best, which he said you don't know what your best is because once you like if you have an idea in your head, what happens when you get there? If you get there, then obviously you can always do a little bit more.

And so you never know what your best is. That's why I said that before. And then it's like your best right now. And that's where that, you know what? My my my aura ring today said my readiness level is seventy five out of a hundred. And so I have seventy five percent today. Let's say we could use that metric if we want. Like that's that's you know how much I have to give today because of all these other factors. Anyway,

Eric Fischer (25:18)

Yeah, and that's your a hundred percent

Kevin (25:20)

yeah.

Eric Fischer (25:21)

today. Yeah. And you have the ring on, so you're taking care of yourself, which is self-care, and that

Kevin (25:27)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (25:27)

can all it all stacks, you know. It all stacks. and it's not linear. I mean, that's a Matthew principle. you know, you do a little bit of like self-care, anything that propels you forward with balance, maybe, is another way to add into it, and that services other people, right? Because like one of the one of the one of the one of the

Principle centerness statements that I have is tell the truth. Okay. But see, that's not good enough because telling the truth can also cause harm. But so tell the truth and cause no harm. So pay yourself anything you do pays yourself off. You're better yet tomorrow than you are today, and it also benefits other people. is maybe an extra layer. And then, and then so it's it's all up, it's all into the ineffable.

Because back to your point with like 75% today is the hundred percent for you. You'll be better tomorrow than you were today. And there's no stopping, right? So what is great? We get to great, we reach a goal. we don't stop there, we make another one, another one. That's Jacob's ladder, up, and there's no stop in there. So long as our we're we're catching breaths in our lungs every day, then we have the opportunity to be better than

Better tomorrow than we are today. do you do you

Kevin (26:42)

I use that I

use that loosely too. just cause you said that I feel like that gives pressure better tomorrow. Like with like Tomic Habits, one percent better each day,

Eric Fischer (26:52)

Yeah.

Kevin (26:52)

better tomorrow than I am today. I look at that more broadly. Like I don't look at it from the f actual definition of tomorrow. Like it's Monday when we're recording this. So I don't look at it as too I'm gonna be better t on Tuesday than I was today on Monday because

I feel like we can get I just like to look broadly, like over the last month, few months, like July versus June, things like that. I I like to broaden the scope, I just wanted to say, 'cause

Eric Fischer (27:23)

Okay. Yeah.

Kevin (27:24)

you know, 'cause that helps me not beat myself up if I have a day where I didn't feel like I got better, let's say, right? Or or

Eric Fischer (27:32)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Kevin (27:34)

or even like looking at like this year versus up until

this point last year in twenty twenty five. You know, so like looking at similar apples to apples type of comparisons, to see where the progress is. anyway, sorry, a little tangent there.

Eric Fischer (27:47)

Mm-hmm. But that's that's the

that's the analytical view, right? well, well, not really. I mean, if you're if you're like big picture,

Kevin (27:56)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (27:57)

like the way I would think about it as well in terms of self-care, well, tomorrow I will be better than I am today, certainly in terms of helping my clients, because I because after this podcast recording today, I learned just through through you. I learned just a little bit more and a different way to look at that word better best.

So that so that's gonna help me understand it for myself as I continue to limp through this world trying to keep my shoes clean. And I'm

Kevin (28:21)

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (28:22)

also gonna become a better coach and then eventually a therapist downstream because of that little nugget. And if you get if I get a hundred of those a year, a thousand of those a year, then that's self care. I'm learning. And I'm and I'm and I'm able to be there for other people who need it in a little bit better of a way, you know. and and that all

Kevin (28:42)

Yeah, same.

Eric Fischer (28:44)

That all grows in stacks. So

Kevin (28:45)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (28:46)

I'm with you on it though a little bit. But I I think like what what we're both saying is there's no wrong to it so long as you're in tune with what it is you're doing to improve your life. And sometimes that's a bath, sometimes that's journaling, sometimes that's the mindfulness stuff, and what's up?

Kevin (29:03)

I I I

was I was just gonna laugh. I'm like I could say I I've joked about this with people on like an Instagram live and stuff like that. you will never you will never hear me saying bath is self care though, because

Eric Fischer (29:17)

Ha ha ha.

Kevin (29:18)

it's just I don't get it. I understand that it's it it can be relaxing, but I just feel I'm a shower guy and I'm like if I want to take a bath, I have to take a shower.

clean myself so I'm not in sitting in Kevin's soup and then and then this is like way T T of I and then take a bath 'cause now I'm clean and I you know I can enjoy it. But then I gotta take a shower again. So

Eric Fischer (29:41)

Then you have to shower again. Hey,

I'm six foot five. And when I take a bath like once a week after really like long, usually on like Thursday or Friday, I've got all like my arms and legs are hanging out of the

Kevin (29:53)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (29:53)

freaking bathtub. Like and my kids, well, they don't come all the way in. They'll like poke their head in and

Kevin (29:57)

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (29:58)

be like, dad, you know. But yeah, but I I do shower after

Kevin (30:02)

That's funny.

Eric Fischer (30:03)

I sit in that water. What's going

Kevin (30:05)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (30:06)

on here, Kevin? We're too grown.

Like adult men talking about taking bats.

Kevin (30:12)

Yeah, hey. I had

this conversation with some people, you know, one on the thousand hours drive page years ago. And I think I posted that because I was like, that's it. I'm gonna take a bath today, see how I like it. And I I jokingly posted a picture with I think I had my iPad there with like Batman, you know, the dark night on, and I had a mock tail drink and I I lit a candle. I was like totally joking. No, no.

Eric Fischer (30:32)

Cigar. Tell me you've got you lit a cigar too.

Kevin (30:36)

I stopped

I I never really smoked cigars, but any cigars I ever smoked were when I was drinking and I tried one after like over my brother's, you know, having one and I'm like I'm like, yeah, this is gross. I'm like when I don't have alcohol like burning out the flavor of this nasty shit, then I'm like, Nope, this isn't my cup of tea. that is not self care for me.

Eric Fischer (30:55)

And it stays with you too.

Yeah, it stays that that that cigar s stays with you for a couple of days. But

Kevin (31:01)

Yeah.

I like to read a lot. that's a big one for me. and i it depends on like I like to listen to audiobooks, read, listen to podcasts I kind of gotten out of, but people send me some and I'll listen to them. but you know the that can also get stressful doing all that. Like so it's like

balancing it because some of the things I like to do to relax and and for self care also can stress me out sometimes. Like if I go out on a walk and I'm like, okay, what am I gonna listen to here? And so or sometimes I'll finish up a book and I'll go out on another walk and that's usually when I would listen to things, like audio books. and I'm just like, I can't listen to another book right now. It's just like I get burnt out on always consuming content. So

It's like being aware of that and not like totally, you know, ditching it for months. It's okay, I'm gonna go on this walk and not do that, but I'm gonna go home and I'll read today. And maybe I read fiction more today than I read nonfiction. and so on. So reading's big. I put together some Legos this week, some Lego. I got my I finally got my Lego succulents, my tiny plants to go with all my other plants here.

Eric Fischer (32:18)

You have right there?

Yeah, okay. Those are all Legos? Those are all Legos. Man,

Kevin (32:19)

Yeah, there we go. Huh? Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (32:25)

Legos has made a comeback, huh?

Kevin (32:28)

Yeah, I mean I got all the all my plants here. yeah,

Eric Fischer (32:29)

There's some therapy in that too. Yeah, there's that's like therapy in a way.

Kevin (32:34)

well I mean watching like I like movies. I it can be anything like movement. I like walking outside for sure. I need to and I should get down in my basement more to work out. just threw that in threw that in there to see if you'd

Eric Fischer (32:49)

Yep, I know you did. I'm not

gonna say anything, but

Kevin (32:51)

Call me out on that.

Eric Fischer (32:53)

out of out of sight, out of mind. So use those steps, right? Jumping on yeah, head on down there. You will. I know you

Kevin (32:56)

It is. Yep.

Eric Fischer (33:00)

will.

Kevin (33:01)

yeah, we're my wife and I are doing some different stuff now. but yeah, I don't know. I mean it's I'm pretty I don't know, I always think I'm pretty boring with with a lot of this stuff. you know, I'm my wife and daughter call me a hermit. like, did you leave the house this week? I'm I'm like, Yeah, I took a walk one the one day, like Tuesday or

Eric Fischer (33:19)

Ha ha ha.

Kevin (33:21)

but

Yeah, I don't know. It's like kind of just that I I like to it's almost like recharge time for me. I you know, I my wife and I were just talking about that. We just had a we're at a grad party yesterday and talking about like at a certain point we're like, all right, do we leave? 'cause I'm like, I'm good. Are you good? and I think, you know, being like more introverted, especially without alcohol, like I'm f I'm fine being there, but at a certain point I'm ready to go home and like recharge.

Eric Fischer (33:48)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's self care too.

Kevin (33:49)

and do some of those things.

so that's that's more where Eileen, what about you?

Eric Fischer (33:55)

Yeah. I whoa, really you know, at anything and everything that propels me forward, I deem self care. And I there's a caveat to that, right? So like from the walks to the gym to meal prepping to my sleep to the journaling to yes, taking a bath every once in a while, going out seeing a movie.

you know, when when I feel like it. playing the piano. play tossing the baseball around, you know, playing staying active in sports. It all it all feeds the beast for tomorrow. You know, I I really I I really put an emphasis for myself a after you know, and I never thought about it this way until I almost died from alcohol addiction, is everything that I do in my life is paying it

Into the future for my life, because when I take care of myself, I can be there for the people that I love. and that is the utmost importance to me on a day in and day out basis. Now, I have found, I'm curious your view on this too, right? So we we we change our identities roughly five to seven times throughout our life. And and and when we become in tune with that, because it

then we can change, but otherwise we're holding on to something that no longer serves us. And so self-care can can be kind of the same way. So over the years I've found myself kind of outgrowing what used to work. and it and it caused me that stress you were mentioning and it felt like more like an obligation rather than something that I was looking forward to doing. have you found that for yourself?

Like like meditation, I slip, I slide. I love meditation when it when I'm in that groove. But there are but there are times where I d where for whatever reason I'm just not I it takes me I leave it and then I'll come back to I always kind of come back, but but I need to

Kevin (35:39)

Yeah. Yeah, same.

Eric Fischer (35:40)

be in that season kind of for for that piece in particular. But do you have

Kevin (35:44)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (35:46)

you felt like you've outgrown some of the stuff that used to work for you?

Kevin (35:51)

It used to work for me. I mean, I'm with you on the meditation personally. Like I'm I'm the kind of the same way where I I know it helps. I know I know it helps from the you know, the studies that are done on it and all that. I know it helps 'cause I've done it and I I feel that it helps. And that's just always been one where it's been tough to be consistent over time with. I would say like journaling for me is

s a big piece of self-care as well. I mean, I talk about a lot, but I think the the key thing there that you just talking about the meditation piece brought up for me was journaling is you know, if I were to lay out like the way I've done it over the let's say the last seven years, 'cause that's really the, you know, I'm seven years, months

Alcohol free. And so every year you could look at it and think it's a totally different person writing the entries. not necessarily writing the entries, but the format, I guess. And I feel like it's evolved with me because it's been helpful and it's evolved with me. So I think that's why it stayed so consistent. because I allowed it to evolve with me as well.

And maybe that's a key distinction for myself that you know it it's gonna have to grow with you. Otherwise, if it stays the same and you are changing, like that's gonna be hard. And and you know, I'm trying to think of examples, but even like working out or the way we eat, we change over time, like food sensitivities change, all that kind of stuff. If we don't change with it, if we're just rigid and and don't like listen to our bodies and things like that, I don't wanna get going on that.

rabbit hole, but I'm just using that as an example. But even like working out, like I can't work out like I did 20 years ago. That's for sure. And you know, I can't lift as heavy. I can't do as much. I can't run. I can't, you know, all that all that stuff.

Eric Fischer (37:45)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin (37:46)

So it's like I have to I it has to evolve with me, or I can stay stuck in, well, this is how I did it 10 years ago. So I'm gonna keep trying to do it and feel bad about it when it when I don't.

Eric Fischer (37:58)

Yeah. Yeah. And that's and and that can turn into that

Kevin (37:58)

What was what was the question again?

Eric Fischer (38:01)

well, that can turn into that shame spiral. yeah, just just like in general, have you have have you outgrown anything that

Kevin (38:08)

yeah.

Eric Fischer (38:08)

that you know used to used to feel good? We can we can put it in the in the bucket of self care, self love, that

Kevin (38:15)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (38:15)

you've outgrown. But I love the way you said it is like, you know, there are things in your life that are going to need to evolve evolve.

along with you. and if if if there's not alignment with what it is you're doing, something's something's gonna break. You're either gonna stop, you're you're less inclined to meditate. So you pick up something else or nothing.

In the very same fragment of time, we also are who it is that we are becoming because of time. And so,

Kevin (38:43)

Yep. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (38:45)

and that's that ability to stay in the brain in a healthy way.

and be able to negotiate with these voices, which is very hard to do, to stay aware, to be intentional, and to evolve.

Kevin (38:58)

Yeah. So and two evolve staying present. so here's a question for you. I don't have time for self-care. What do you say to someone who says that or makes that argument and and it could be because of the way they're looking at self-care.

But yeah, how do you reframe that for somebody like I I'm too busy, I don't even have time to you know to I I can't read one page a day, let alone ten.

Eric Fischer (39:27)

Okay. I'd I'd I'd I'd probably in this for anybody watching or listening, feel free to do something like this. So I would I would have a discussion with them, we'd peel back some layers as to what that definition for themselves might mean, take a look at the day, take a look at the week, see how they're living,

Kevin (39:46)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (39:47)

and and then potentially ask them to categorize the what is important, what

What do you deem important to your li in your life? And then what is urgent and what is not urgent inside of that world? And what is not urgent you delegate or do later. What is important you do now? And theoretically, that should free up some time and then you can tuck inside of that. Now the old Eric, the old Eric,

Kevin (40:13)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (40:14)

the the I'm forty six, like the thirty-five year old Eric would be would would say like, yeah, right.

Just find some time. There's plenty of time in the day. Get up an hour early.

Kevin (40:23)

Go go all in.

Eric Fischer (40:25)

Go all in. Get up an hour earlier, stay up an hour later, and figure it out. You know, some that was my mindset. That's the way I used to think. It was like, you know, but I also grew up in a world where it was like look him in the eye, shake a firm hand. If you cry, you're weak and sleep when you're dead. So that

Kevin (40:41)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (40:41)

I was conditioned that way from childhood growing up, and that's very much changed, radically changed. I think for the good.

Kevin (40:46)

Yeah. Wait.

Eric Fischer (40:47)

But yeah, I mean, go ahead.

Kevin (40:49)

I was to say, wake up an hour early and do that thing for self care instead of doing the thing for s yeah, instead of doing the thing for self care, which is

Eric Fischer (40:53)

All in and terrorize yourself.

Kevin (41:00)

sleep that extra hour. You know.

Eric Fischer (41:02)

Exactly. Yeah. See

how like but but I think, you know, like for myself, like I I I hope anybody watching it that's when you heal and you're proactive and you and

Kevin (41:12)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (41:12)

you understand that change really is possible in a real way, you know, like in a in a in a how you live your life way, day in and day out, it is real. You know, it is I can look back in my journals and I can look back and I can have conversations with

People that have been in my life, and they also can provide information for me as to how it was that I was and how it is that I, you know, I used to think, and all this and that, and then versus how I am living today. and and it's really, I mean, it's that you'd have to know me really well in order to fully understand what I'm what I'm saying. But change is real, you know, like when you f

Kevin (41:46)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (41:48)

when you finally decide like I'm gonna

I'm gonna remove these things and I'm gonna add these things and I'm gonna take my time doing it and I'm s gonna slow really down. I'm gonna get really curious and you know, and I'm gonna I'm gonna pick this little thing, give it a try. If it doesn't work, no problem, because something else will come up that you do love, that you is intrinsic for you, and that'll help compel you and propel you forward. Where does he wanna go? And that all of it is nestled inside of self-care, you know. but change is real, you know. I I mean,

But that would have been the old way I th would have thought about it. And I put that on myself first before I would have casted that out to someone else with that view. But but in today's world, I the way I I work with people now, there's a lot of curiosity and asking good questions because people people come up with the answers for themselves. and they find they find ways. I mean, we've we've you and I have been in have have had exposure to, you know, thousands of people at this point and

People are people really are amazing. When they do find what it is that they want to do, boy, watch out, you know? Like watch out for the person who tries to stand in front. Somebody who knows where they're going and why they're going there. Don't stand in front of that person.

Kevin (42:57)

Yeah. And

Again, I always think of how I would listen to what I say and and respond or my sarcastic brain be like, Well, I don't know where I'm where I'm going or what I want to do. And it's like again, that's like you don't have to figure out your entire self care plan. You don't have to figure out your entire plan for anything, even like surrounding alcohol. It's like just start okay. It's you know, just start today and focus on the neck this weekend.

The next week and start small and and make one small change. Don't because I you know, whenever you were talking about like taking a look at my day, like if we were talking about like when I asked the question about like if you don't have somebody says they don't have enough time or whatever. And I'll argue for the most part that we all have time to do the things we want to do, but we set expectations.

too high and maybe we categorize too many things as important. Cause and I'm not here to I will never say like I'm not that guy who's like, everybody has time to do an hour of workout a day. No. But everybody has time to do two push ups. And I still struggle with doing two push ups. You know.

Eric Fischer (44:08)

Yeah, well mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Well

every time you every time you say no to the elevator and you say yes to steps, that's self care.

Kevin (44:17)

I say yes to steps every single day. I never get on an elevator at work.

Eric Fischer (44:21)

Yeah, provided you have either do I.

As you are sitting in in your home office. Are there steps

Kevin (44:28)

As I'm sitting on my second floor of my home, yeah. yeah.

Eric Fischer (44:33)

though? You said second floor. Are there steps? See, self care right there. Self care. Couple extra calories. Yeah, leg strength keeps you alive.

Kevin (44:35)

Yeah. Yeah. I walk up and down those many times a day. I haven't gotten

yeah. The yeah, there's I mean there are the and but again, I'll sit there and say that and then I'll hear myself sometimes now and definitely in the past being like, Well, that's not gonna make a difference. Right. And and if we have

Eric Fischer (44:57)

Right. yeah.

Kevin (44:58)

that attitude.

then you know, I don't have time to read. Just read one page a day. And I don't mean just read one page a day like you're gonna read three hundred and six sixty five pages a year and that's it. But that's the bar that you set to enter that. And then if you read two pages, great. If you read one page, great. Doesn't matter.

same thing with going for a walk. Like it, you know, it doesn't whatever it is doesn't have to be forty minutes. It can be five. It can be lacing up your shoes to get ready to go for the walk because you want to get that in that habit of showing up for it and you never go for the walk. That's fine, but do it again tomorrow.

Eric Fischer (45:37)

Yes, yeah, because eventually eventually you'll take that walk. And then the intrinsic piece too, like we can we can scroll social media, we can be on the reframe app and see what other people are doing, we can read a book, watch a podcast, and somebody might have a beautiful way, a very appealing way to that they take care of themselves, how they do self-care, but but that doesn't mean that y you should copy and paste that for yourself. So

Like that it's the book piece, right? It's like, okay, I'm gonna read one page of the book. Because what we're looking for is this like provided it's a book that you actually do like, which is the key, you'll get to the b at some point in time, you'll get to the bottom of that page and you'll and and and you'll your intention will be I'm just gonna read one page, I'm gonna get rolling page. And then but there's not a period on the last sentence and you've got to flip that page. And you're hooked, and now you've got two pages, and then you've got three, right? So it like it's

Kevin (46:31)

Yeah. Or you or you look

and be like, well, okay, I'll read the next page because then there's the chapter end and I'll just go to there,

Eric Fischer (46:39)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin (46:39)

right? And yeah, and that's not it's still though, you could stop without that period and just be like, I'm gonna turn a page tomorrow. I've done that before where every

Eric Fischer (46:45)

Yeah, you could. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kevin (46:48)

night I'm like I have to read at least one page of fiction before I go to bed. I don't know why I got out of that habit. but I do read fiction more now anyway. So maybe it's just I'd read it you know, make take a break later in the day or

And read a page or so from there. But and I was like sometimes it probably took me, I don't know, because I was like sitting there dozing. Like I was sitting there with my book light on and like trying to I was struggling through one page and then I closed it and I went to bed and that was it. but if I did it the next day, maybe I wasn't like ready to pass out. So I I I just kept going a little bit. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (47:21)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, the gym, the gym, the nutrition, the relationship, everything starts like this.

Kevin (47:30)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (47:31)

Super duper small. And there's and there's tremendous amounts of humility in that as well, because if we think we're too good to only start with one page or only start with putting our shoes on and only, only, only, then that's our ego and our pride that's tapping on our shoulder.

And so there's tremendous amounts of humility, right? And and humility, in order to overcome and achieve great things as the individual defines it, there must be humility tucked inside of that game they're playing. otherwise it's finite and temporary because it will break at some point in time, because that means you're trying to bend the fabric of reality to match the way your lens wants it to look. And that's never gonna work.

So starting small with self-care and finding out what it is that you want to. And then that belief, the beautiful thing that we've seen is like you start something really small and you go at it for a little bit of time and it's sticky for you. Well, in a month, one week, two weeks, a month, six months, that thing that you've become pretty good at doing is going to lead to something else. It's going to start spoking, it's going to start growing for you into other areas of your life. And that's the that's the mystery of that's all driven by faith.

Like what is the if I so long as I show up and I give it my all, whatever that means, seventy five percent is the hundred percent, as as you said. I think you said that really well. and that's what I've got today, you know, and that's okay. I'm good with that because it's what I'm showing up with. but the beauty of it is what could it become in the future? That's a that's a mystery.

Kevin (49:02)

Yeah. And

and and I'm I don't know if I shared this example. I feel like I might have on a previous podcast, but I use this. I used this in the we did the book club for power of habit, Charles Duhig. and he talked about Keystone habits and those what's that small thing, small wins? That's what you're looking for. And I shared mine in there where I'm here.

Seven years almost to the day of it was right around it might have been the beginning of August, the sec first week of August, that I created my Instagram account. And I created my Instagram account because my therapist said, Well, why don't you post better pictures and next year you'll see something better?

in them because I told her that I was about three plus months or around three months alcohol free at that time after working with her, you know, throughout the whole year so far. And I I was like, I got another picture from last year, one year ago today. And it was like, it's that beautiful picture out back after we, you know, we just I just grilled out some food and it was like that with a beer. And you know, I posted that on Instagram or somewhere. I don't know.

and so I said, Okay, now I'm craving that. And she and she just made an offhanded comment. Why don't you post better pictures now so that you have those to look at next year? Right. Well, that's not gonna make a difference. And then I I thought about it for a while though, and I created a r a separate Instagram, a new Instagram account. And I all I did was post three pictures a day. I posted my day count at the time, my picture I took, and a picture I found somewhere on

That was funny or just it useful. I posted three pictures a day. That's it. Every day for like two months, three months into October. And I didn't follow anybody and nobody followed me. And I just did that. And then and then after a while, I kind of was starting to follow more sober, alcohol-free type accounts on there, on like my normal, like personal page. And then

I I'm like, okay, well, maybe I'll start following some people over here. And then they wanted to follow me. So I'm like allowing people I was still private. But little by little, I kind of just kept then I made my account public at the end of the year. That was that was nerve wracking. And then I started making posts, like different posts that would share how I was feeling. But like from that little statement, I just started posting a couple pictures. And it's definitely evolved over time, like where I'm at now. But

you know, I use that as an example because I had no plans to do anything with that. I was just usually that that had every opportunity to fizzle out and be another, even though I wasn't diagnosed at that time, another ADHD thing that I started, right?

Eric Fischer (51:53)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin (51:56)

but if I throw enough things up against the wall and try try these things out, I see how it feels and see, you know, maybe, and because of that, it allowed me opportunity to share.

stuff I was writing down in my journal. It allowed me to be creative, which I found I liked. and so I kind of latched onto it more and more. And then that grew into a lot of different things. So try new stuff too. Like don't always go to your old

Eric Fischer (52:18)

Yeah. Yeah, that's self care. I love that.

Kevin (52:20)

self care type of things.

Eric Fischer (52:23)

Yeah, yeah, you will grow. and that means

Kevin (52:25)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (52:25)

things will change. Did you I love I love that story. I love that story. Do you do you

Kevin (52:30)

Yeah, it that's funny

because like the last day of work at you know, I'm a former accountant. So my last day of work there, whenever I was gonna, you know, then then on it was a Friday in February, and then that Monday I was gonna start full time at Reframe, about a little four and a half years ago. one of my counterparts in accounting, I was in tax, comes up, he's like he t he's like, yeah, what are you doing? Just assuming I'm gonna go to another company or whatever and you know, do accounting there. And he's like, And I told him

He's like, How the hell did ya how the hell did you get into that? And I was like, I started an Instagram page three years ago is was my answer.

Eric Fischer (53:02)

Yeah. Isn't that awesome?

Kevin (53:03)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (53:04)

That is that Kev, that is so that's the first time you've I've ever heard that. That is such a co that is such a cool story. And look yeah, look at I mean, look at where you are now. And who would have thought? Who would have thought?

Kevin (53:14)

Yeah, I mean, and you don't have to yeah, it's the

yeah, it's the Martin Luther King quote, right? You don't have to see the whole staircase to take the first step.

Eric Fischer (53:22)

Yeah, man, that's a good one too.

Kevin (53:25)

Yeah, I mean, and just see where it goes. if you like it,

Eric Fischer (53:29)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin (53:30)

if you know it feels right, keep going with it, keep trying new things.

Eric Fischer (53:34)

And how did you feel? I'm curious how did you feel when you started posting, be being a self proclaimed introvert, was it was it tough to push that publish button or send button or whatever?

Kevin (53:44)

Yeah it was tough to push

the button and I wanted to retract it right away. And luckily I had a friend who we talked a lot about this because we both kind of are, you know, worried about that. And I share this with people, you know, in meetings and, you know, talking about the forum and that. And I'm like, just put it, share it, because if it helps one other person, and that was kind of like the thing she told me was like,

You know, if one other if one other person sees that and says, I needed to hear that, then I don't care who else liked it or didn't like it. I don't care what people think. If it helps somebody, that was kind of like the bar. And then I I I kind of had a workaround for like, well, how do you know if it helps somebody? Like, do they have to say that they needed to hear that? I'm like, no. Somebody might see that and not like it or comment on it because they don't want other people to see what they like and comment on. And they might

have gotten benefit from it, right? Or even just a like could be. So I kind of and that's why I I never care about like, I need to maximize likes and all that. I'm like, if you stick to what your message is or what you like or value or whatever, not that I had a message per se. Like that sounds a little bit much for me. I don't like, you know, that kind of thought. But if you stick to that, then who cares, you know, if it

you know, is is getting likes and views and all that. No, I I know that there's benefit to that too, to get it out to more people and and so on. But yeah, there was plenty of times where I yeah, my my wife was my she loves that I don't really post much anymore. she doesn't. She I'm joking. Like I would always send

Eric Fischer (55:20)

I was gonna say, yeah.

Kevin (55:21)

it to her and be like, Can you read this? Like is this okay? Like is this sound stupid? is this weird? Like I had all these I was always, you know

in my head about it and that perfectionistic tendency is c definitely come came out.

Eric Fischer (55:36)

Has that has

as a perfec through posting on Instagram, has the perfectionism quality been put kind of in its inside of its own box? Has that subsided over time?

Kevin (55:46)

I will say yes and no. I mean, it's still there, I feel like, with a lot of things, but I've definitely gotten better at and comfortable with the fact that nothing's gonna be perfect. And, you know, so I I my you know, I don't have to I mean, I would do even recently I've done it where it's like I've had so many takes, like if I'm doing like

you know, video for the a challenge or whatever. You know, I I I work up a script and I think through what I want to say and talk about and all that. And you know, I the R walls aren't that thick. Like they hear the F bombs and everything when I'm getting through it and I'm like two and a half minutes into a three minute video and I go off and I say something wrong or I say something and I'm like and I hear it and I'm like, I don't like it. I'm just like, like

Eric Fischer (56:34)

Yeah, yeah, dropped,

yeah.

Kevin (56:36)

And then the more times that happens, the worse it gets. I I've actually made

Eric Fischer (56:39)

Uh-huh.

Kevin (56:39)

like clips that we shared with people on reframe about like just all my screw ups and all the blue all the outtakes and bloopers and and

Eric Fischer (56:46)

the outtakes. Yeah.

Kevin (56:49)

stuff like that. just as a you know, it happens. Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (56:53)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, well it's human. Yeah, it happens. Yeah, it

happens. Yeah. But you can recognize it now through with all the

Kevin (57:00)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (57:00)

work you've done. And that's and that's the growth.

Kevin (57:03)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (57:03)

and that so speaking of self care, then would would you therefore looking back was was getting on Instagram self care?

Kevin (57:14)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (57:14)

It had to have been.

Kevin (57:16)

Yeah. I mean, that was my that was my reframe, I'll say, because I didn't

Eric Fischer (57:19)

Yeah.

Kevin (57:20)

reframe wasn't didn't exist. There there weren't many other options around there. And so I connected with that community specifically. And I had friends on there that, you know, we would message all the time, reach out to each other. but yeah, putting that out there and then I started hosting on Thousand Hours Dry. And that was something I could give back to other people and and and host. And that's why I, you know, went and got

Coaching certifications for various things because I was like, Well, I'm like and I again I was like I it was an idea. I was looking to go back to to school, like you are. And I was like, Okay, I kinda wanna look down this, you know, psychology route and become a therapist. And I was talking to my therapist and she's like, What about coaching? so I to looked at that and I was like, Well, even if it helps me like support people on Instagram better, I'll try it. And and that was kind of my attitude with it. I wasn't

in it you know, this has to be, you know, this next thing. I was interested it was something I was interested in for myself and for what I was doing, and therefore I tried it. Or I or

Eric Fischer (58:24)

Yeah. And

Kevin (58:25)

I worked I I did it. You know, I got I put the work in on that.

Eric Fischer (58:29)

What I love about how you're describing all this is people probably got on here, they saw that word maybe in the title, self care or what have you. Something prompted them to click in. So here we are together. And we're not really speaking about self care in a classical kind of indulgent sense, if we want to use that word. That's a kind of maybe a heavy word, self indulgent in a way, but

But nonetheless, I think we understand, right? It's like the day

Kevin (58:52)

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (58:54)

off, the binging on Netflix, and the things we've been talking about. But who would have thought, and then we talked about, spoke about more recently, the the the the unknown into the future. And so and then and then the the the social media as an escape as being problematic in people's life, right? Because there's addiction tied to that too. But

Kevin (59:11)

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (59:13)

you but you used it as a means.

Kevin (59:17)

It's like an outlet.

Eric Fischer (59:17)

to improve

an outlet, but to improve your life at the at the kind of like the the the prompt of your therapist to to it just accountability, improvement, you know, like try something new, stretching, putting ourselves on edge, which is growth. And then that led you to a place that you never would have even thought you'd be, which is here, a reframe, leading reframe, mind you, not just a coach. You're you're the man in charge. You're the decision maker. And so you so w one of but but so like

Who would have thought, you know, and social media now now pe we're discussing social media as a value add, as part of self self-care, so long as you understand the way it is that you're using it.

Kevin (59:58)

Yeah. Yeah, if you can set boundaries with the yeah, obviously there's a lot of things that can be

Eric Fischer (1:00:02)

But it worked for you.

Kevin (1:00:04)

yeah, it did. and it was that support. I remember my screen time in let's say around April of twenty twenty, April, May, COVID happened. I hit I I hit a year alcohol free at the end of April twenty twenty, right after COVID ha started.

I remembered my screen time stats were like 50 to 60 hours on Instagram a week because I was working from home and I had my phone just on its charger here and it was just open to my DMs, talking with friends. Like and that was my community, right? it wasn't like I was scrolling Instagram for 50 or 60 hours. It was just I was just had it on. So it was on the screen, right? And I was working. And then if somebody messaged, I would be like, go message them back, whatever. but yeah, it became that.

support that I didn't realize I needed. realized that I yeah, that that would help me so much, just like journaling. Like and and journaling then

Eric Fischer (1:00:57)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin (1:00:59)

led into like a lot of the stuff I shared. And that's where the

Eric Fischer (1:01:02)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin (1:01:02)

evolution came from too, where I do do it in many different ways over time. and more recently I've had a block on Instagram in my head.

Like I'm like, I don't know what to share. Like a and that and that can be that partially is probably self care too, because it's like I'm have so much other stuff I'm doing in reframe that you know it's just like it felt like another ask that I I didn't want to I don't know what the what the word is there, but I wasn't I had you know, something had to be kind of taken away, I guess.

Eric Fischer (1:01:37)

Yeah, yeah. What it

Kevin (1:01:38)

Just seeing what, yeah,

to make space for these other things, right?

Eric Fischer (1:01:42)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. and it started with one post.

One post and it grew.

Kevin (1:01:48)

Yep. and yeah, with zero again, with zero thought about I was posting just random shit. You can go to the at bottom of my Instagram page. I didn't delete any of it and it's, you know, some random, you know, a picture of Ron Swanson from Parks and Rec saying, you know, don't don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. Like I thought it was funny that day and I posted it along with my whatever my day count was that day.

You know, it's just it was just like stupid stuff. It was like I'm like, nobody's looking at this. This is for me next year, is what I kept saying in the beginning. yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:02:16)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, the future self, the your

future self. And that's all self-care. I love it. It just I I just wanted to mention that because because I'd be willing to bet, like, who would have thought that self-care and social media would go hand in hand?

Kevin (1:02:32)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:02:33)

but the way you're describing it, it it it it works, you know, and and so that kind of feathers us back into like that, you know, self-care can be what the individual wants.

it to be so long as it benefits themselves and as a consequence in some way some other people.

Kevin (1:02:52)

Yeah. I like your definition of that. Like how you how you whether it's you wanna call it definition or not, but just that how you're phrasing that. yeah, I think that's good.

Eric Fischer (1:02:59)

And it's not direct,

like like benefiting other people is not, it doesn't need they could just be you could be

Kevin (1:03:04)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:03:05)

in the coffee shop and you're and and just come across somebody randomly. You don't even need to know them, but it's but that interaction is a positive interaction because of the way you have orchestrated your life over here. And so the interaction at the coffee shop with a ran random stranger benefits both people as a consequence. So it's not just

you know, people underneath the the roof that that you know that we that we share the roof with. So

Kevin (1:03:31)

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Eric Fischer (1:03:36)

fascinating.

Kevin (1:03:38)

Right, yeah, that's I feel like should we get into our nuggets? Although

There is one other thought that something you just said there made me think about this. I hear I've heard this before too, about you know, this is well, I just feel like that's selfish. Right. If I'm taking this time for myself. any thoughts on that?

Eric Fischer (1:04:00)

Yeah, yeah, we hear that a lot.

I I I certainly understand and see and share some of that view, the self selfishness of it in a way. and then you and then you think of that that airplan airplane model, put the mask on yourself first if the plane's going down, because yeah,

Kevin (1:04:16)

Yep. Yep. That's one of the things I think about there. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:04:20)

because that's the only way you can stay alive for your child or

Kevin (1:04:24)

To help other

Eric Fischer (1:04:25)

a stranger who's sitting next to you. So

I do at a at a deeper level, it's not really that deep. I do think that it is a conditioned precedent to take care of yourself first, in a balanced way, so you can be there for those people that you do love, and with the aim of of in the essence of the good at scale,

Kevin (1:04:46)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:04:47)

for the good of humanity at scale, which includes.

helping and taking care of other people. So I do feel like,

Kevin (1:04:53)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:04:53)

you know, like, like because because the opposite, everything has an opposite, right? So the word good has no definition without bad, right, wrong, some goes up, some goes down. If if you're on the religious, spiritual side, God, the devil, etc. Right, we can we can play that out. so if we are if we are taking the aim that

Every single day I'm going to be better and I'm going to continue learning and I'm going to continue striving, not reaching. Striving is different than reaching. and and voluntarily show up and do hard things. That's growth. I will be the best I can be, and therefore other people will benefit. But I think at the very beginning of any of that is taking care of ourselves first because it's a yes and no principle. If I say yes more than I say no.

Which is self-sacrificing, I never get to walk through the door because I'm making sure the door is held for everybody else. They get to go

Kevin (1:05:50)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (1:05:50)

watch the movie, they get to go watch the game. But what about me? You know, and now the other side of that would say somebody would say, well, if you take care of yourself first, you open the door and walk through and let everybody else go behind you. That's not what I mean either. So

Kevin (1:06:03)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:06:04)

it's like it's a it is a delicate balance of being narcissistic and and and authoritarian in nature.

With your mindset and

Kevin (1:06:11)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:06:12)

approach and being like there's a childlike behavior and saying, well, it's mine. It's all me. I need to do everything for me first and no one else gets to eat. that's not what we mean. It's the the mindset is I'm going to intentionally take care of myself so I can be there for other people because I have capacity now. I have capacity to be there for other people because I am taking care of myself.

Kevin (1:06:37)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:06:38)

When I take care of myself, when I have my ducks in a row, I have capacity to be there and do things with and for other people. Otherwise, I'm only focused on myself all the time. And the more somebody thinks about

Kevin (1:06:51)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:06:52)

themselves, the more they suffer.

Kevin (1:06:54)

Yeah. And I as you were talking there, I was thinking like, well, this this can all be solved with that same kind of terminology phrasing that you use about self-care. It's like, is this helping me be better tomorrow? And and helping others too, right? Because then I don't think it can be if it falls in there, it it can't really be selfish, right? Because it's benefiting others in the future. And

There are plenty of things that we could do that we you know, we do it too much too often and then therefore it takes away that benefit of for us and others in the future. Therefore, yeah, maybe that is more negatively selfish.

But if you run it through that lens that you posed, I I feel like that's a good way to look at it.

Eric Fischer (1:07:43)

Well, it opens it up, it it it it it

It it cracks the it cracks the container of self-care and opens it up into other other areas and other ways of thinking, like

Kevin (1:07:54)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (1:07:54)

that elevator and staircase. When we think of when we think of self-care, we think of the of the laying on the couch and taking a day off and just relaxing

Kevin (1:08:03)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:08:03)

and zooming out. But but self-care is also walking up the steps every day.

Kevin (1:08:09)

Yeah. It's doing a hard workout. It's

Eric Fischer (1:08:10)

Self care is also Yeah.

Kevin (1:08:13)

it's eating healthy. You know, it's not just you know, hey, pizza is my favorite food and that can be self care. But if I eat it every

Eric Fischer (1:08:21)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin (1:08:21)

day, every meal, that's not good.

Eric Fischer (1:08:24)

Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's indulging in that's that's paying more attention to how you feel. And Marcus Aurelius would say something like, Stop indulging in your lusts and in your pleasure. Go out and do the day's work, you know? it's something like that. And and that's but that's when we focus

Kevin (1:08:41)

Sounds like a good spot on quote there. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:08:45)

You know, it's like we're not born to lay underneath that one's own covers and you know and all those, yeah.

Kevin (1:08:48)

the covers. Yeah. I just read that the other day and I'm like,

it would have been even better if I was under the covers as I was reading and be like, damn it, Marcus.

Eric Fischer (1:08:56)

But you know what's important for people to understand with Marcus Aurelius is he didn't write any of that for people to see it.

Kevin (1:09:02)

No.

He'd probably been like he'd probably come today and be like, what the f like what the hell? Guys are

Eric Fischer (1:09:06)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's and it's

Kevin (1:09:09)

reading that?

Eric Fischer (1:09:09)

yeah, it was private to him. He wasn't he wasn't and that's one of the hard things about about growth and overcoming things is because it it's it's intrinsic and it lacks external glory. It's not performative,

Kevin (1:09:21)

Yeah, it's not performative either, like, yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:09:23)

yeah. It's it's not intellectualizing, it's not saying all eyes on me, look at me, look at me. It's saying like, whoa, this is gonna be hard. It's me, myself, and I.

Kevin (1:09:32)

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:09:33)

And that's hard

because there isn't glory. We're driven by the pat on the back and the and and the go get boy, that good job type thing. Like, you know. but it is in no, no, heck no, that serves a real purpose. yeah. yeah. yeah. Very important, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin (1:09:41)

Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that, but because it's motivational and that helps us keep going and push forward, right? Celebrate. Celebrate the wins. we

change best by feeling good, not by feeling bad. That's

Eric Fischer (1:09:56)

Mm hmm. Absolutely.

Kevin (1:09:58)

from BJ Fogg. And then I I James Clear, I think I think this is a James Clear quote, but I know. but he said when you say no.

And this goes back to what you were saying, talking about like opening that door and saying yes and or whatever. Like when you say no, you're only saying no to one option. When you say yes, you are saying no to every other option. He's like, No is a decision, yes is a responsibility. But like if I say yes to everybody, then I I'm saying no. If I say yes for let's just say my time, you know, on a day or whatever, then I'm saying no to every other thing I'm doing that day.

Versus if I say no to that one person that day, you know, who's looking for some of my time, I'm just using that as the example. All my other options are still there. Like I've I can do a lot with that day to support other people or myself. but yeah, it's that people pleasing, getting away from that. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:10:51)

yeah, yeah.

Well w well when you say no, you can always come back and turn that into a yes. But if you lead with a yes and you and you and you pull back on that, that's your integrity. And integrity can be defined as how one believes in themselves, how they view themselves first before they go out and act in the world.

Kevin (1:11:10)

Yeah. Yep.

Well

Eric Fischer (1:11:12)

Interesting.

So self care. Anything and everything

Kevin (1:11:14)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:11:15)

that drives you forward and helps other people.

Kevin (1:11:17)

Yeah, I'll be interested to hear

Eric Fischer (1:11:20)

Drop some comments. Let's see what people think about that.

Kevin (1:11:23)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:11:24)

I don't know, we just kind of off the cuff here.

Kevin (1:11:25)

This this might be a

smight be a you know, July thirty first, I think is this Friday. I think this will come out then. But that's when I do the journaling meeting too. I think this might be a good topic for that. I mean I've done it before on there, but we'll see. but I want to wrap it up here. Do you have any nuggets? What do we what do we learn this week?

Eric Fischer (1:11:49)

Well why you

Kevin (1:11:49)

could be completely

off topic, not sobriety related at all, just a little nugget for the listeners.

Eric Fischer (1:11:56)

well I learned a little piece. I'm gonna do a little research. well, research. I'm gonna do some educating on on the the best the way to frame that. So that's a little piece for myself personally.

Kevin (1:12:06)

Frame what?

Eric Fischer (1:12:07)

that that word the b the best, your best.

Kevin (1:12:10)

yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:12:11)

I wanna learn more about that. so maybe maybe

Kevin (1:12:13)

I'll I'll send you

the I'll send you the pages from Inner Excellence. I want to say Frosty Westering is the quote, is where the quote is from. Who Frosty Westering, Pacific Lutheran University football coach, four time national champion. but it's like a page and a half out of the book where he's like Frosty Westering divine defines the three types of best. So if anybody's looking for that.

It's on page 72 and 73 and 74 of Inner Excellence, if you have the same version I do. but

Eric Fischer (1:12:45)

Well I love how

you I I love how you mark the yeah. You I mean, you're in it, you know. hopefully some people saw

Kevin (1:12:51)

Yeah, and that's

Eric Fischer (1:12:52)

how you how you mark up that book.

Kevin (1:12:54)

yeah. I've get read with a pen. I learned that from Ryan Holiday and quit more books. I love his

Eric Fischer (1:12:57)

Yeah, yeah. yeah.

Kevin (1:13:02)

one hundred okay, maybe I'll I have other nuggets, but I'll use that as my nugget. One hundred minus your age. If you're not feeling the book by then, move on to another book. I've that's helped me so much because you know.

Sometimes I I got I have to finish this. I have to clean my plate. you know, and I have to finish this book before I move on to the next one. But if I hate this effing book, sorry, guess what? I'm just not gonna read another book ever because it's like if I have to finish this, sometimes that's tough. And I don't I'll say I don't quit many. No, actually I do because I'm

all over the place with books. I I'm al I'm I always read like four or five at a time. and so I pick up and put down as I go, but I'll definitely put down and not go back to anyway. Tangent.

Eric Fischer (1:13:50)

Mm-hmm. That's

well, that's that's I mean, it's it's important though. It's opportunity cost. And it also speaks to curiosity. Because if you're if you're not curious in something, your ability to retain it is almost nil.

Kevin (1:14:03)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:14:04)

and that's what's true, that's what's, in my view, troubling, kind of troubling with our education system is that we don't have we don't get to choose what it is that we're curious in.

It's like a little spirit that calls to us to learn and investigate more about something. And books are are great

Kevin (1:14:21)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (1:14:22)

a classic, great example. It's like why torture yourself through a two hundred something page book when

Kevin (1:14:28)

Because everybody said I should read it, Eric. I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna try

Eric Fischer (1:14:32)

Should there's that should word, Kev.

Kevin (1:14:36)

I'm gonna try and finish this this week. I sh I should be able to. Like there's all these things. It's like, all right, put the book down. You're not reading it.

Eric Fischer (1:14:39)

Yeah. Yeah, I'd be done with it. Yeah. Ryan

Holliday. For anybody for anybody who's interested, Ryan Holliday has a phenomenal podcast. He's an author, the Daily Stoic. Check him out.

Kevin (1:14:53)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:14:54)

He does A plus work.

Kevin (1:14:55)

Yeah. And that was Daily Stoic is one I hate making recommendations for things just because everybody's different and what people like and don't like. And so but day I I'm Daily Stoic is one that I have no qualms about. And actually I added Oliver Berkman to the list with Meditations for Mortals. I've just gone all in on recommending this book. And it's four weeks to embrace your limitations and make time for what counts. He also wrote

4,000 weeks, but I like this one because it's it's more bite-sized. Like it's day one, and there's like three or four pages about day one that you can read. but that goes back to I was gonna share that because of the as a nugget, because of the, you know, you talked about urgent, important and all that. And I love his perspective on challenging what we think of as urgent and important.

And really taking a look at that. and even if you do that, even if you just don't agree with it or whatever, you're like, no, this is important, that's fine. But if you challenge those things, you know, that's the start, bringing awareness to like what is important to me? What what is something I have to do versus, you know, something if I don't do, like, is it really gonna matter? Yes and no. I mean, with our work, with you know, raising

fa you know, kids or things like that. Yeah, there

are definite things that we have to do.

But there's there's also some things that aren't.

All right. I think we cover I think we covered a lot there. good good thing we started early.

Eric Fischer (1:16:25)

We did. We did cover Yeah,

we did cover quite a bit today. That was fun. That was fun.

Kevin (1:16:30)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:16:31)

I hope I hope I hope folks, you know, picked up a few things.

Kevin (1:16:34)

Yeah, I'd definitely be interested to hear yeah, people's thoughts on this. yeah, definitely feel free to share comments with us or or come to a reframe meeting and let us know what you think during self care August.

Eric Fischer (1:16:44)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin (1:16:47)

Answer that and answer that question. How are you going to take care of yourself this month? Even just a little bit differently. So anyway.

All right. Well, thank you all for listening to another episode of the Reframable Podcast brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. I want to thank you again for listening and be sure to come back for another episode. Have a great day.