Choosing Your Sobriety Date: Detox, CBT, and the Work That Keeps You Sober

Getting to day one can be the hardest part. In this deeply personal episode, Matt, a professional Los Angeles musician, shares how a fifteen-year drinking habit, a DUI, and the loss of his mother converged into one of the hardest seasons of his life—and how he eventually made his way to a sobriety date he chose for himself: January 13, 2025.

This conversation explores what it actually takes to reach day one and, more importantly, how to stay there. Matt walks through the layered support that carried him through detox and early sobriety—medical intervention including naltrexone and other medications, therapy grounded in CBT, and the community he found through Reframe meetings and beyond. From there, the discussion opens into the deeper work of the second year: the searching self-inventory, making amends, and the practice of writing things down to see them clearly instead of letting them swirl in the mind.

Listeners will find a candid look at the "selfish selflessness" of recovery—how caring for yourself first creates the solid ground to show up for others—along with reflections on community as the antidote to addiction, the role of spirituality and staying open to signs, and why the work never really ends. The episode closes with practical takeaways on understanding the problems our behaviors are trying to solve, and the simple power of just starting the thing you keep putting off.

Whether you're working toward your own day one or building a life well past it, Matt's story is a reminder that changing your relationship with alcohol is about so much more than what's in your glass.

The Reframeable podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the #1 app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. If you have a topic you'd like us to cover on the podcast, send an email to podcast@reframeapp.com or, if you're on the Reframe app, give it a shake and let us know what you want to hear.

Transcript

Kevin (00:00)

Welcome everyone to another episode of the Reframable Podcast, a podcast that brings you people stories and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more. Because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass. This podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol.

It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. My name is Kevin Bellach. I'm a certified professional recovery coach and the head of coaching at the Reframe App.

Eric Fischer (00:34)

And my name is Eric Fisher. I'm also a coach here at Reframe and I focus on recovery and lifestyle design.

Kevin (00:41)

Nice. Today's guest is fellow reframer Matt Otto. Matt is a professional musician in Los Angeles, California. He has been alcohol free since January of 2025 and continues to maintain his professional and personal growth into sobriety.

Matthew (00:57)

World Series champion Los Angeles Dodgers. I should have I should have included that. Sorry. Just to make you read it. Los Doyers. I have not been to a Dodger game yet

Kevin (01:03)

what what was that back to back?

Eric Fischer (01:03)

Yeah, yeah, those doyers. The doyers. Los doyers.

Kevin (01:06)

I d I forgot about that.

Matthew (01:08)

this season. Soon.

Eric Fischer (01:10)

really. We used to go all the time. They're they're fun with that backdrop. Yeah.

Matthew (01:12)

Yeah. I have

I have a favorite place that I like to sit. I used to live over there really close to the stadium. So like going to game walking to games, like

Eric Fischer (01:22)

Like next to Griffith Park, right in there?

Matthew (01:24)

Elysian Park, yeah. Really, really close. That whole little area, that little corridor of sort of Eastern Los Angeles is kinda hilly like that. And Dodger Stadium's kinda in that that bowl and Chavez Ravine. Yeah, it's l Dodger Stadium is one of my favorite places on planet Earth. I I can feel

Kevin seething at this point. We talk about the Dodgers. Yeah. Well, Eric, I know you're a baseball guy too.

Kevin (01:44)

I I I honest I I honestly don't care. I was just kidding. it's baseball and it's Aug

August third, so I don't pay

attention.

Eric Fischer (01:54)

Yeah, no. Yeah. Yeah. No, I love baseball. It's very hard for me to watch though on TV.

Matthew (01:59)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (01:59)

I can go to a game and hang out and, you know,

Kevin (02:01)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (02:01)

chat it up, but to sit there and watch it on TV is like watching paint dry. And I played for a long

Matthew (02:06)

What?

Eric Fischer (02:06)

time, you know, it's just it's but anyway. well Matt, great to have you here.

Matthew (02:09)

One of

yeah, I'm I'm so glad to be here. I like Kevin said, my I've been sober since January of twenty twenty five. I chose my sobriety date, which is January thirteenth of twenty twenty five. and I I kinda wanna get into like explaining why that is. the Dodgers have a little bit to do with that.

I had a very long term relationship. we were to she and I were together for about thirteen and a half years and you know she she doesn't have anything to do with it. Well she does have something to do with it, but my my drinking career in total was about fifteen years and I was together with the same person for a very large percentage of that.

And so that's that's a part of it. January thirteenth is is because of that too. it's a birthday celebration and we went skiing and I yeah. well so let me I I kinda wanna start at the beginning. my name's Matt. I identify as an alcoholic. I I was diagnosed with severe alcohol use disorder.

And I think it's just easier to use one word instead of many diagnostical terms to describe myself. I know, you know, the language that we use is really important. And so for me, describing it in a way that's succinct is has been successful for me. I I identify that way because when I wanted to stop drinking, I couldn't.

I drank for a long time and I drank habitually and I drank problematically and I want to talk a little bit about that too, but as I progressed through my drinking, I eventually wanted to stop. And it was suggested to me by my partner at that time, hey, why don't you just not drink today? And I could not do that. And so when I heard other people

later in my life, now into my sobriety, talk about alcohol addiction, alcoholism, alcohol use disorder, whatever you want to call it. When I heard other people describe that, you know, desire to stop drinking, when I wanted to stop drinking, I couldn't. I I stopped doing other things of of my own accord. When I wanted to stop, I did. And I habitually used

alcohol in its stead and and then when I wanted to stop drinking I couldn't. And so when I when I say that I'm an alcoholic, that's that's how I identify that way. And it's important for me to put those put that description on it too 'cause it's it's more than just one word or one like, you know, sort of social context on a word. It's not like in a brown paper bag under the overpass. For me, it's that when I wanted to stop, I couldn't.

Kevin (04:47)

It

Yeah. Did you and I was just curious since you know you're you're being very descriptive about that, like why you chose that and it's was that from the start or w did that come after a while?

Matthew (04:59)

Yeah, it wasn't it wasn't from the very beginning of my sobriety.

I I I got sober. I I became alcohol free in another description.

Kevin (05:12)

Yeah.

Matthew (05:13)

using reframe. I so to rewind just a little bit more, in March of twenty twenty two I went out this was not the first time that this had happened, by the way,

in March of twenty twenty two I went out. I went to a bar, it was karaoke night. beverages were flowing and I decided to drive home. Not the first time that I'd ever done that, but I got pulled over. not the first time I'd ever that had ever happened to me after drinking either. but I got arrested that night and I got charged with DUI and you know, all the things that follow that. I spent the night in jail, I hired an attorney.

I slept on the couch for a while after that. and I downloaded Reframe not long after that. That when I got arrested, I I left jail the morning of March nineteenth, twenty twenty two. And I downloaded Reframe I think on April sixth or April tenth of twenty twenty two. And those dates are important in my story.

Because it was right around that time too that my mom was diagnosed with cancer. My mom passed away on April 18th. And and I didn't really have any coping mechanisms. I was dealing with a DUI. I was dealing with a sickness and a loss and grief in my family, and I didn't know what to do. And so I used reframe and the daily tasks and the I

You can go back and look at my old, my original forum posts. It's like I'm I I was struggling a lot. I didn't know how to stop. I I at that time I wanted to stop and and I didn't know how to. I also got a therapist and a psychiatrist through my healthcare provider's addiction medicine department. so I was doing a lot of things. A lawyer, an app, medical help.

And it was at that time in twenty the spring of twenty twenty two that I really decided to change or try to change my relationship with alcohol. And it took me a long time to get there. It was like I said, my sobriety date is in January of 2025. And so I I had been using that app and the re this app, the reframe app. but meetings on the app were not as prevalent.

then as they are now. And I didn't go to any of the Zoom reframe meetings then. I sort of let my membership lapse. And I let my my goal of drinking less also lapse. I I was going through a lot. I had the the court date was in like October, I think, and I couldn't drive for a month. And I dealt with all the repercussions from the D UI and in my relationship to

it was October of twenty twenty two that my that my court thing happened. I stopped I stopped smoking marijuana a year after that. And it was that year of twenty twenty three to twenty twenty four. October of twenty twenty three to twenty twenty four, where I wasn't doing anything else. I was just drinking a lot. All the time. Waking up in the morning and drinking.

Drinking

in the afternoons, drinking before I went to work, drinking on the break at work, drinking when I got home, drinking when I could you I think you get the picture. And I when I when I wanted to stop in 2022, I couldn't, I didn't, and I didn't really try very hard, or at least as hard as I would do. So that year from when I stopped cannabis use to basically Halloween of or just after Hall.

Just before Halloween of twenty twenty four, when I had a big fight with my then girlfriend, and I re-downloaded Reframe, I was just sort of spiraling. I was lost. I didn't I wasn't grieving properly, I wasn't coping well. it it was very challenging for me emotionally and personally, spiritually, and and I didn't know what to do. And it it

Broke my relationship. That very long partnership that I had had ended because of my lack of trying to do anything about myself. And she decided to sleep on the couch that time. she we we we sort of weren't talking for a while, and I'd re-downloaded Reframe, and I discovered that Reframe had

more meetings and I I tried again and I tried a little harder and I went to the meetings. I I was very anonymous. I with a fake name or my forum name only maybe, which is close to my full name. but I started to hear other people's thing other people's stories and that's when it really started to click for me. I I didn't

know what to do for a very long time. But I started to hear other people say that I don't know what to do. I don't have another coping mechanism. I don't this is this is hard for me too. And I thought, well maybe this is something that like I can relate to. And certainly I did. I don't remember exactly when it was, but it was a men's meeting. I I was sitting in my car parked outside in my little, you know, personal private bubble space.

And I shared with my camera on in the men's meeting that I had had enough. I was sick and tired of being sick and tired, as they say. And that was, I think, before Thanksgiving. And I decided that I wasn't gonna stop yet for Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's, or this ski trip that wa was was already booked for January. And

But I was gonna get back from the ski trip and I was gonna stop drinking. And from the time that I said that through all of the holidays, my then girlfriend broke up with me. She moved out. She actually moved out on December 20th, right before Christmas. And so all of the history of the old relationship, all of the stuff, you know, broken and gone. and I held my resolve. I continued to.

To drink and work with my therapist and psychiatrist through the holiday season in 2024. And I got through New Year's and then we went on the ski trip that we she we broke up, but we'd already booked the trip. And so selfishly I wanted to go ski and spend time with the dogs still. And I went on the trip. The LA fires were happening at that time too, in January of 2025, which is right.

just a mile or mile and a half north of where I live, where I'm sitting right now is the Eaton fire in Altadena. And I went on the trip and I decided that if I had this whole plan, I bought a Lego set to keep my hands busy. I had food in the freezer ready to go. I had this whole plan. I'm gonna stop. And if I if my freezer food had defrosted

And wasn't ready to go, I was gonna throw it all away. And so luckily I got home and my power was still on and my freezer food was still frozen and I got sober. I called my psychiatrist for the morning of January 13th. I got back from the trip on January 12th. I had my last drink before midnight on January twelfth. And I called my psychiatrist in the morning on January 13th. I went to the pharmacy and I picked up a prescription for detox medicine and

I started a four day detox medicine taper at home. which was told to me that it w that was not the clinical recommendation. Was the clinical recommendation from my doctor was to go to treatment and be observed and advised and cooked for and all of that stuff and I didn't wanna I didn't wanna do all of that and insurance and everything. And so I did it at home and I built my Lego set and I ate my Trader Joe's freezer food and

And that was January thirteenth, twenty twenty five, and I have not had a drink since.

Eric Fischer (12:24)

Hmm.

Matthew (12:25)

that has not been what has kept me sober, but that is how I got sober. I could not stop drinking even when I had consequences and repercussions and I wanted to stop drinking, and the the sort of universe was telling me like, Hey, this is not a good idea, this isn't working for you anymore. I could not stop until I like hurled myself over the finish line and I finally did something about it.

I

I say it like, you know, it felt like a Herculean kind of momentous effort to get one day. But that's why that one day is so important for me because I remember how hard it was for me to even stop. When I wanted to, I couldn't. And it was just a habit for me at that time. And it was it was a problem. drinking did serve me.

at one time. It was fun. I'd go and hang out. And if you know, during the pandemic, I drank with my partner at home. Like, you know, it it it worked, quote unquote, for a while until it didn't work anymore. And it was a huge problem. And I lost things and I I had consequences and and it didn't work anymore. And so for me to remember all of that, for me to tell that story a little bit in that way is important for me because that first day

was so hard for me to get. I couldn't get a day. And now I have a few days in a row. It's five hundred and sixty seven days now. A little over eighteen months. And yeah, the the first time that I said anything about it was on reframe. I I said that in the men's meeting. I remember saying I and I say unto God and country that I'm gonna choose that date. Other people have told me we can't choose your sobriety date. It'll choose you.

Well, I chose my sobriety date and and I haven't had a drink since that day with that with that detox medicine. I still use reframe meetings. I if I'm honest, I do not use the drink tracker anymore. I don't put in the I had zero drinks today in the drink tracker because I just you know, I I don't drink.

I wanna say just one other thing. the that sort of like hurdle for me to get over to get one day. I don't know the last day that I didn't drink before January thirteenth of twenty twenty five. If I look back, it it was close to fifteen years that I drank every day to varying degrees.

I drank between classes in college. I drank before things. I drank during things. I drank after things. I just drank all the time. It was like a part of my daily life, like a ritual almost. And I didn't think that it was a problem. It it it may not have been a problem for a long time, actually. But then it then it was. And

that so that day and the subsequent days following it for you know more than five hundred days is it is a miracle to me because I didn't stop, I couldn't stop, I didn't think I had the ability to stop. And it was through the community, it was through the support that I felt from little Zoom Square

meetings, not even in person connection at first. it it was through the community, it was through the help from my therapist and medical intervention from a detox medicine that really helped me to get across that line. And so it's really important for me to hold on to that. And I I have to remember how important that is to me.

It's a miracle that I got sober and so I I hold on to that for dear life. It's yeah, it's it's it's pretty incredible to be over here on the other side at this point.

Kevin (15:53)

I was curious, you said about was it like before Thanksgiving that you targeted after the ski trip? As that's the day I'm going to do something if I'm gonna do it. Yeah.

Matthew (16:04)

Yeah.

Kevin (16:05)

And and it's funny because I was like actually looking through my, you know, take little notes shorthand on my tablet, if you don't mind me just sharing my notes from January thirteenth, twenty twenty five, in the men's meeting.

Eric Fischer (16:16)

Ha ha ha ha

ha.

Kevin (16:17)

it's really

shorthand, so it's like I don't have anything in particular. But yeah, it just said, like, you know, coming back after ski trip. And I know you had mentioned that. I remember you mentioning that in meetings prior. and you said, yeah, you gave yourself permission to do damp January until today. And it was Jan, and then I just wrote January 13th, AF day one. so that was your day one, like you you announced that.

Matthew (16:40)

Do you?

Kevin (16:40)

And you mentioned

gave it gave me the time I needed to say goodbye. And I

Matthew (16:44)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin (16:45)

was curious if you would go back to that time knowing what you know now, would you still give yourself that same time? And there's no wrong answer here, so you don't have to

Matthew (16:54)

Yeah. Yeah.

I I would. I would. For me, that's how it worked. I know for other people, and

Kevin (16:58)

Okay. Okay.

Matthew (17:01)

I've heard other people's many, many other people's stories, that that sometimes the the bottom, you know, my my I chose my bottom maybe. I maybe I chose where to stop digging. I I had gotten I'd gone deep enough and maybe I would go just a little deeper until January thirteenth, but

I've heard other people say, like, well, my my bottom came rushing up and hit me. Or you know, s

Kevin (17:24)

Yeah.

Matthew (17:25)

different life events happen in different ways for different people. this is my experience and my story and the way that it worked for me. It doesn't always work that way for everyone. But yeah, I it did sort of give me the chance to

And maybe this is just the alcoholic part of me. I didn't want to stop yet. And and you know, I that freezer food thing, like my freezer food had had gone bad or whatever, like I was willing to throw it all away and keep drinking anyway. But but that's not what happened. it did give me that chance to, you know, deliberately have my last drink. I heard somebody recently at a meeting say, yeah, if I'd

If I'd have known that would have been my last drink, man, I'd have done it different.

Eric Fischer (18:05)

Mm-hmm.

Matthew (18:06)

But I I I remember what my last drink was. I did do it on purpose. I drank all the way up until eleven fifty nine PM and then I didn't consume new alcohol after midnight. You know, I did that on purpose. And I think that's a part of the reason that it worked in that way for me. That's kind of how my brain works and but Kevin, you you just did that community thing. You had the notes.

from you you have the receipts and you kept the receipts and re just read the receipt back to me, you know. That's the community at large working right there. And that's

Kevin (18:38)

Yeah.

Matthew (18:39)

that's ultimately how it started and how it has continued for me.

Kevin (18:42)

And and and the big piece of it there too, I think, is is that you said it out loud to other people who you were being accountable to in advance, right? Whether people were like, you know, he should he I don't know if that's gonna work or you should just do it now, or any like if anybody thought that, but you put it out there. You didn't just like sit there and keep it to yourself and be like, Well, maybe I'll try this date. And, you know, so putting that out.

in that way adds that a additional le layer of accountability and then coming on that day and being like, All right, this is it.

Matthew (19:15)

the moments leading up to taking the medicine, the the detox medicine. The doctor said, do not drink when you take this. That didn't really stop me from from doing that before. But I really meant it that time. And I remember sitting here that morning about to take the medicine and thinking like if I do this, I'm doing it.

I'm really, I'm really doing it. And I sat for a minute and I sort of meditated on that. And I yeah, like I said, I haven't had a drink since.

Eric Fischer (19:42)

It's it speaks to the that whole notion that we need to be ready. We need to be ready. I mean, I think your your story, you're right. You you noted it at the beginning before you went into your your story that not everybody's you know bottom or or how they overcome this thing is is the same. but you you planned yours out after

Well, maybe the word struggle is the right word. Struggling off and on for years, and then you planned it and it worked. because we do need to be ready. You know, that's why, that's why this thing is so hard for family and loved ones, is because we're we're the ones that have to I experienced some very similar things that you did. sounds like Matt. And so so so n now here you are, what, eight eighteen months?

Matthew (20:24)

Mm-hmm.

Eight a little eight eighteen and a half months.

Eric Fischer (20:26)

Give give take.

18 and a half. Okay. and and and you had mentioned that that you had you have still been working on yourself because we can have the resources and have the help surrounding us, but we still have to put in the work for ourselves. and then that again is individual too. what what are some things that but now having the ability to look back

what are some things that like near term that have that have worked for you, maybe that first month or so, to kind of like continue pushing you a further and further away from alcohol? And then maybe just high level talk about a little bit of

the old you and the new you, what you've done, what what has worked for a little bit and maybe fell off and what stayed in your life that has has worked over time. Cause that first year, you know, that like that first

Matthew (21:12)

Eric, that's a great question. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (21:15)

year can be can be a challenge sometimes. So

Matthew (21:18)

I've I've been taught this framework, what happened, what it was like. I said I mentioned a little bit about what it was like, and then I mentioned what happened and then what it's like now. And I I've been thinking about this in the last few days leading up to this recording. And yeah, I sort of I

I know my story, and so it's easy for me to tell my story. But then I was sort of remembering what happened and then what it's like now and what I did at the very beginning is looks a little different from what I do right now. at the very beginning, the first month, the first sixty days, ninety days, which are very important milestones. I worked

really, really closely for those like three years almost from spring of twenty twenty two to the spring or the summer even of twenty twenty five after I got sober, with my psychiatrist and my therapist. my therapist wa and b both of them actually were very, very good at simply coming up alongside me, holding my hand, walk meeting me where I was at, and doing what

I needed. They weren't trying to push anything on me. Actually my ther I learned later that my therapist kinda was, but he did it in such a special and kind way that I didn't even know that he was doing it until I discovered later. and I I I do want to mention that, but I I wanna get through this first.

I I I took naltrexone for that whole period. I think I I think I started naltrexone in like the summer of twenty twenty two and then I stopped taking naltrexone in the winter of twenty twenty five. So I went all the way through almost my whole first year of sobriety taking naltrexone. A a lower and lower dose through through twenty twenty five through the year. I also took another medication

which is off label for for cravings for alcohol. it's it's an anti-seizure medication actually called topiramate. I I have not heard of anyone else taking this medication, but my psychiatrist recommended that for me. that that's that's what I did. and that worked.

to varying degrees of success. before I got sober, I was unable actually to meet my goals of alcohol consumption. I I I got taught what a standard drink was, a 12 ounce drink at five percent or five ounces at thirteen percent. And I never poured five ounces of wine. I never did that. A wine bottle does not have four drinks. a wine

Eric Fischer (23:43)

Yeah, who does that?

Matthew (23:46)

bottle has five and a half drinks. It doesn't have three or four. It has five and a half standard drinks.

most wines. what a what a shot. Well I learned how to count standard drinks. I did this crazy insane alcoholic math for so long. I would drink 19 ounces at 9%. I you know I count that's 2.8. I I I did this math for this whole time un until I stopped drinking. And so the the naltrexone and the other medication worked kind of until I I rode this like moderation roller coaster for that first period.

But then I noticed once I stopped drinking, it still the naltrexone still had an effect. It still helped me modulate my actions when I had a craving. I had that habit that had lasted for so long. And now I don't do that habit with that old coping mechanism anymore. And naltrexone, you know, albeit not a magic pill, did help me.

To do that. So I did have, you know, a medical intervention, both with the detox medicine and naltrexone for a while. I also had the therapist who was very immersed in CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy. My therapist was also a 12 step guy, which I did not I he I knew this, but I he would give me little like little pushes, little nudges.

And one of the things that I'll never forget, he he gave me a quote one day. I think he told me to write it down, which is why I remember it so well. the idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. And I related so hard to that, like, man, I that I think I'm an abnormal drinker because I think I can control this. And I was like.

We

had just been talking about that crazy moderation roller coaster and counting all my drinks and is this sustainable forever for the rest of my life? I was trying to get to fourteen drinks, which is the CDC recommended guideline. And I think the least I ever did was 18 in a week. And I was like on the cusp. I was kind of there. I was kind of doing then I'd bounce back up and he was trying to show me how insane that is. And I learned later where that quote came from is a twelve step.

quote. It's from it's from that book. And I so I used the therapist and the psychiatrist extensively. after I got sober, I I went to like as many reframe meetings as I possibly could. I'm a musician, I work freelance and so I have weekday afternoons off a lot. And

I w I was on like four or five reframe meetings a day. I was participating, I was sharing a lot, I was making myself visible, talking about my stuff. I became comfortable doing that with my therapist first and then I became comfortable doing it in a group setting. there was one night, I think about two weeks in, that there were no more reframe meetings on West Coast time.

And

the 7 Eleven is still right over there across the street where I used to go all the time. And since I got sober, I think I've been to that 7-Eleven like five or six times. I used to go there like five or six times in a couple of days sometimes.

Eric Fischer (26:54)

Mm-hmm.

Matthew (26:55)

and that that store is right over there. And I didn't know if I was gonna stay sober. And so I'd become comfortable with Zoom-based community support recovery. And

I was sitting on my hands, kind of twiddling my thumbs, like not knowing what to do. And so I Googled Zoom community support and AA is the thing that pops up. And so I started attending Zoom AA meetings. And that that was quite early on. I so it turns out that Matt, who could not stop drinking, needed a community support. And I actually need more than one.

recovery community. I I still participate on reframe. I still come here and hear the stories and relate to people who are trying to and have stopped drinking. And I found Zoom based and then in person based community support for recovery from alcohol. And yeah, I I I didn't go to an in person meeting

For a couple of months. My first in person meeting was at 75 days. I remember that because I got a 60 day chip. They kind of looked at me like, 75 days? Why are you getting a 60 day chip?

Eric Fischer (28:06)

Ha ha.

Matthew (28:07)

And I still have that chip. It's on a keychain over in my wall over there. I got a ninety day chip at a meeting that I now am the secretary of. I I host or you know, moderate or chair the that meeting.

Now,

I participate in my recovery in many, many ways. It is so important for me to say that. It started with becoming comfortable talking with my therapist. It continued becoming comfortable talking in front of a group of people. You know, some of the reframe meetings you know, is more than just the three of us as 300 people sometimes. And so becoming comfortable talking about this subject and myself.

in front of a group of people and then doing that in front of a group of sometimes much older people that have very, very long term recovery. and that was something that I noticed at at those in-person groups that I found is that some of those people had been sober for as long as I am alive. And and so I really connected and wanted to plug myself in with that because I want because I remember how hard it was for me to stop.

I want to stay stopped. And there are here are these people that have stayed stopped for much longer than I have. And so I learn from you and from people on reframe. And I stay green by remembering how hard it was for me and relating with people who are very new and fresh in this journey. And I also learn from

Eric Fischer (29:32)

Hmm.

Matthew (29:32)

those people who have sobriety as as old as me. I think that that's really special. I

I

I listened to someone I'm thirty-seven years old and I listened to someone speak last night who has thirty-nine years of continuous sobriety and she was talking about how you know how challenging it is still. It it but it's not about drinking anymore. It's about living.

Eric Fischer (29:55)

Hmm.

Matthew (29:55)

And and that's that's what it looks like to me now. So at the very beginning, those first few months, thirty, sixty, ninety days,

was a lot of meetings, different recovery platforms, different groups, different styles, getting tokens of recover. I have actually have one right here that I'll I want to sort of share. This is my 18 month token that someone sent to me, which is very special to me. as a remembrance, as a as a milestone or a token of that that level of

recovery reached. And those things were important. My psychiatrist mentioned to me the diagnostic and statistical criteria for alcohol use disorder. I was diagnosed with severe alcohol use disorder. And then having stopped drinking, he told me that 90 days was a a DSM a sort of milestone.

That

at 90 days, the DSM five says your alcohol use disorder enters early remission. And then so that's three months of continued sobriety. And then at 12 months, the DSM labels that you have entered sustained remission from alcohol use disorder. So that period from three months to 12 months was a period of change for me.

in in the 12 step program I started doing the steps at that time I think it was about just before my 90 day mark I started doing the steps. I still went to many, many meetings. I started expanding my understanding of of life. Life looked different when I was drinking. And now I'm not drinking. What does life look like? What do I do? How do I live sober?

and so I started to learn in that first year, the second half of that first year, I really like opened up myself to to many other things.

early early on on reframe, I I did all of the all of the stuff. I like I said, I don't track my zero drinks each day anymore. I I was doing that still. It was important for me to mark zero days. that has been something that's sort of fallen off a little bit. I did all of the book clubs. I did the let them theory book club. I did all of was it atomic habits or tiny habits?

Kevin (32:14)

Mm-hmm.

Matthew (32:15)

I did

all of I read both of those, but I did the reframe book club meetings like without fail. I I did not miss one of those. And I read the book along with it. And I like I said, I participated a lot in those first few months. And then I started doing the steps. I found, you know, more recovery through more I've also been to Recovery Dharma. Recovery Dharma has like many recovery dharma meetings have a

like a 15 or 20 minute meditation at the beginning of the meeting. I find that lovely. So meditation is a part of my daily thing. I I found connection with spirituality and a higher power. And you know many people talk about God. it I I have a version of that that works for me. I everyone's version of that is acceptable.

And

it was it was suggested to me that, you know, I I I try some of that out and it could be, you know, a a higher a sense of higher self or a connection through like the spirit of the universe, which is sort of what it means to me. I really find like I feel very small when I'm in the mountains and nature and looking at this thing which is so much bigger than myself. I think that that's the point, is that it's not me, it's outside of me.

It's bigger than me. It's a connection and community and maybe nature or I don't know. And I think part of the point is that I have difficulty explaining it. I I did this very searching process of writing down things that bother me. people that that I'm angry at or resentful at.

fears that I have, things that I have done wrong. And and I I had trouble through that part of the process finding things like like a a full inventory of of stuff about myself. And someone suggested to me that, well, do you have things that you carry guilt and shame about? yeah. And everything came flooding out at that point. And I wrote all of these things down in a

in a very sort of structured way, what the thing is and how it affects me and and then w what's my part in in all of those situations or or with those people. And yeah, like I said at the beginning, when I got arrested, my mom got sick. And I remember the last time one of the most important things that I carry shame or regret about.

Is that the last time that I saw my mom, I was dreadfully hungover. I lied directly to her face about something. And that was the last time I saw my mom. And being able to write some of this stuff down was very hard. But I had to do that like honestly in order to get it out. And then I said that to like I'm saying it out loud now. S writing it down and saying it and being honest about it is

Freeing.

So freeing. And that process and that particular one began to lift this heaviness off of me. And I I hear other people say the obsession to drink has been lifted. And that's really when it happened for me. I don't desire alcoholic beverages anymore. It's not a part of my daily routine or habit like it once was.

obsession to drink is gone. because I went through this like very intensive process of like discovering myself and writing it down and telling someone else and participating at meetings and being open to seeing something that I may not have been open to seeing before. I then made amends with those people like clearing the air with my ex.

And with my dad and with my bosses, my former boss. And you know, these are these are things that like have become the way that I stay clear and I don't carry guilt and shame or resentment anymore. it's it's really through that part of the process that I have been able to maintain my sobriety. I got to that first day somehow, some way with

huge help from medicine and community. And then I have stayed sober by doing this very personal, almost selfish process of self-discovery and uncovering and then discarding the things that don't serve me anymore. Alcohol was only the first part of discarding what didn't serve me anymore. And then I found all of the other stuff behind alcohol. I hope that kind of answers that question of of what the first year

looked

like and now I'm into a second year where the uncovering of those things has really shown me so much of myself and I live with that now.

Eric Fischer (36:51)

And and and then I've got things in my head going on, like Carl Jung's quote, you will find what you need most, where you least want to look, your

You're taking things out of your head. So the unconscious, conscious, writing it down, speaking about it, voluntary exposure, right? So going where you don't want to go and we grow. Well, here's the thing about we don't get, we don't overcome what it is that we're scared of. We get more brave.

So we're s we can still be scared to go have a hard conversation. We can still be scared to go to the bar and have some of this fear, but we get more brave, we're more competent, more resilient, we have more capacity to hold hard times.

So you had the medication and you surrounded yourself with help. And then as you continued on, you started leaning into being proactive with people, community, reframe, and then there's AA, and there's the other one that you mentioned. I I apologize. I I I'm not too familiar with the other one, but nonetheless, it's community and you're writing and you're showing up and you're speaking what it is that's bothering you, and therefore the rumination and nervous system kind of

lower over time, that says, and then we earn the confidence to continue moving forward. So would you say that like to going outside of your comfort zone in terms of community and opening up in these meetings was a main piece to your healing? In addition to

Matthew (38:15)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (38:15)

searching your soul and and finding what it is that we're bending our knee to, something greater than ourselves and and and being just relentless in a way on understanding

Who we are?

Matthew (38:26)

One

hundred percent.

Eric Fischer (38:27)

But

but but one of the anchors is opening up with community because that's what I mean we all know how that's the great human struggle, right? Is the movement towards autonomy while also doing it our way, the way we want to do it, whatever that is, while also commingling the complexity of community and feeling that togetherness that we're fundamentally rooted in as human beings.

Matthew (38:51)

I have this this thought frequently, especially in the last six months or so. what I am doing in recovery for myself is selfish. What I was doing while I was drinking is selfish and inconsiderate and emotionally dysregulated and you know dishonest at times.

And what I'm doing on the other side over here in recovery is also selfish. But the the reframe of that is I need to do that for myself in order to stand on firm, solid, clean ground. So I can stand up and stand up tall with honesty and integrity. So I can show up for myself.

and show up for other people. I was unable to show

Eric Fischer (39:37)

Mm. yeah.

Matthew (39:37)

up for my ex, for my mom, for my colleagues at work, for people in general in my life while I was drinking, because I wasn't looking at any of this. And now I do look at it. I look at myself. I grow personally and because I'm growing personally, I'm growing professionally.

And I get the opportunity from that selfish standpoint of clean, clear, solid ground for me to be able to show up for other people. I took a 90 day chip at that it's a ten PM meeting here in Southern California and I kept showing up to that meeting and I made myself available and I made myself visible and I showed up for myself and in doing so I showed up for other people.

I got to know other people. I allowed other people to get to know me. And they elected me secretary of that meeting to chair that meeting. And you know, they they trust other people trust me with my recovery to help their recovery. And that's that's that thing that I am selfish. I am selfless in a selfish way. And what kind of a weird dichotomy is that? That

Eric Fischer (40:47)

Mm-hmm.

Matthew (40:47)

I'm

selfless, selfishly. I I do this for you, but it's really for me. What a what a strange balance.

Kevin (40:52)

Yeah. Yeah. There's the there there's a whole like

Eric Fischer (40:52)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kevin (40:56)

friends friends bit where yeah, they talked about like Phoebe and Joey where yeah, there's no there's no truly selfless positive like act like that. You you get you're gonna get something out of it, right? And there's nothing wrong with that. But yeah, that's it's benefiting us. It's like

Matthew (41:15)

it's not transactional for me.

Kevin (41:17)

Yeah.

Matthew (41:17)

I don't do this because I get somet I do it because I do it from the selfish standpoint. I need it, so I do it. But then in doing

Kevin (41:24)

Yeah.

Matthew (41:25)

so, I'm also doing it for someone else and then that this big circle of recovery occurs.

Eric Fischer (41:30)

Yeah, because it folds back, it turns back on itself. So the help

Matthew (41:34)

That's that's right.

Eric Fischer (41:35)

right, and that's all self-care. Kevin and I we we did an episode, watch the self-care episode. We were talking

Kevin (41:41)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (41:41)

about this, you know, like what it is you do for yourself, that propels you forward and as a consequence or byproduct, however whatever word you want to use, benefits other people. and so

It's self care at its finest, really, like deep self care, self love in a very curious, relentless way because you're then able to be there for other folks. Beautiful. Beautifully said. Well done. I mean it's amazing to s to it's amazing

Matthew (42:04)

I I think of I'm as a musician.

Eric Fischer (42:09)

to

Matthew (42:09)

I as a musician I I think of this musically also, but I think one of the best examples of this is driving on the freeway. In LA, we we drive everywhere. Car car culture in Los Angeles is is a is a thing because like across town is twenty miles and those twenty miles could take you twenty minutes or it could take you two hours.

So

when you're driving on the freeway and the flow of traffic on the freeway, I have to go the same speed at a similar distance to the car in front of me and to the cars on either side of me. And if I jerk the wheel to the right, or if I slam on my brakes, that is going to affect the person next to me or behind me. And so selfishly, I don't want to

have to get out of the car and interact with that other person in the car next to me. And so I follow these sort of unwritten social rules of the flow of traffic. I don't get into an accident because I don't want to deal with the consequences of that. And that's a that's a selfish act that

is for the betterment of everyone. It helps traffic move forward. It helps that other person get to where they're going. I'm not doing it for them. I'm doing it for me. But certainly multiple people will end up having consequences if I let my intrusive thoughts win and I slam on my brakes and the guy behind me hits me. That's that's the same thing in music where, you know, I'm just a cog in the machine. I'm playing my part.

doing my thing in a group of people that are also doing their part, doing their thing, but we're doing it together in sort of a a collective consciousness kind of way. I remember one of my teachers in school used to say like, well don't if you're gonna do something, like breathe at the same time, but don't look at each other. Just use the force. And I didn't understand that, but there's this like thing in the room where you can feel it. It like without looking, you can sort of know when the person next to you is breathing.

And then you start and you you come in together and you it's the same thing in music and on the freeway and that collective consciousness of the group in in a recovery space. I I do this for myself but with everyone else and it's it's for everyone else at the same time that it is for me and it's that big circle again.

Eric Fischer (44:23)

Yeah, yeah. I I know what you're it's like when we're in a stadium, right? And there's 40,000 people, and then right in the center down below is the musician, right? And they can say shh, and everyone's quiet, and then they start a song and everybody's singing along to the same beat, to the same lyrics. There is a collective flow to all of that that energy. and community helps that is that same sort of feel.

some people like small, intimate communities. Some people don't mind bigger ones. Again, we're all beautifully unique this way. and and some people like both, kind of like the but community is so important to healing and overcoming what it is that you wanna what it is that you wanna change.

Matthew (45:03)

Addiction

is the opposite of addiction, right?

Eric Fischer (45:06)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well you can I mean you can you can put somebody in isolar or isolated confinement in jail, isolation and it's the worst form of punishment. I think we've all heard that. one way sh you know,

Kevin (45:20)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (45:20)

one way or another.

Kevin (45:21)

Yeah.

Yeah, I think yeah. I I I'm I'm trying to connect these dots with you with the traffic and all that, but I like the well you the word you just used was energy. and supporting each other, right? And being able to feed off of that 'cause yeah, because you can we can do that negatively. We can feed off the energy of others around us that you know who are negative, but how do we counterbalance that with something else that supports us?

think finding that for yourself is so important and finding multiple ways, right? Finding multiple things, not putting all your eggs in one basket, you know, to say, yeah, it just there's many things that we need to do to work on it. What else? And I'm curious, I don't know if anybody else is going on a different direction, but what else outside of like the let's just say these groups and anything else that you changed that was very beneficial to you that

You know, you talked about meditation, from I think Recovery Dharma, right, was one with that that usually started with that. But sounds like you've done that outside of it. But what else has been helpful for you as well?

Matthew (46:23)

Yeah, so similar to like, you know, the the words that we use. Like I consider myself an alcoholic. some people, you know, use the word God. God capital G is different from God lowercase G to me. the spirit of the universe or collective consciousness, I I think i is something that describes that and i for me,

But I I also have a have a sort of prayer practice. when I when I said that, you know, there's a sort there's a certain spiritual component to my life now, that's that's really what that is. And so prayer to me is not like I hit my knees and I, you know, I fold my hands and I bow my head and close my eyes in a sort of you know the the social context of, you know, the the religiosity of prayer. That's not what it looks like to me.

It

it but it certainly is like sending out an energetic thought, like the the conscious thought of

Well, there this thing that I can't explain that's bigger than me, I don't know what it is, but maybe if I like send energy out, maybe I'll get energy back. Because when I go to a room full of other people that are all doing the same thing or playing music or driving on the freeway, we're all doing the same thing together separately from one another. That connection I think, you know, sends me back certain energy that

that I know I I get. And and so I've opened myself up to connect with whatever that is. I I like I said I have trouble explaining it. And I think that that's the point is that my puny human brain can't explain whatever that woo-woo thing is. And and so I I do have that sort of prayer practice. It's hard for me to explain.

But I do send out, you know, thoughts and prayer. I do ask for guidance. I have lots of people around me that I can confirm this with. Usually when I'm unsure of what to do and I pause and I reflect and I quote unquote pray, I send out my energetic thought and ask for the right thought to come, usually it is immediate.

when I when I wait, when I'm clear and I realize where where I am and I don't know what to do and I ask for the right thing, usually the first thought that I have is the right one. But I also have a whole list of people in my phone and on reframe a and meetings in the forum. you know, I have this whole group of people that I can

Call and ask, hey, is this right? Is this the right thing for me to do? And that's really a remarkable component of my recovery, is that I just I maybe thought or knew that something was out there. I don't I don't know. I don't know what it is. I have trouble explaining it. And I certainly didn't connect with it before.

Kevin (49:15)

I I the quote the

Yeah. I'd say the the quote that comes to mind that I like is Richard Feynman, I'd rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned. I mean, I love that and that's like spot on like I don't know. So

Eric Fischer (49:27)

yeah, yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's it's a yeah, I I yeah, that's a really that's a great quote. That's what I was thinking of. You're asking questions and t instead of telling yourself statements.

Kevin (49:40)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (49:42)

and there's an inherent curiosity to that and a and a and a bending of the knee to the what does all of this mean, you know, and and and

And that fe go ahead, go ahead.

Kevin (49:51)

And being pro I was just

gonna say and being proactive by like, okay, well who going to my contact list, who can I call for this to, right?

Eric Fischer (49:59)

Uh-huh.

Kevin (49:59)

Not just yeah, go ahead.

Eric Fischer (50:01)

Yeah, we have the feeling of it and then we have the practical side of it too, right? I'm picking the phone

Kevin (50:05)

Yeah, yeah.

Eric Fischer (50:06)

up and saying, hey, I just need can I steal your ear for 10 minutes? you know, but that I know what that feeling is. That's that's reserved for the human being. No other no other creature on earth with a heartbeat and blood flow has it but us. It's reserved. Science and data cannot prove the feeling of being called towards something, being compelled towards something that you don't understand, you can't see it.

Taste it, touch it, all of our senses. but it's something in us that that calls to us the same way that same feeling calls to us at three in the morning to hold us accountable too. When we wake up at three in the morning and a little spirit calls to us and we can't go back to bed, that's that's the same feeling saying this right here is not going to go away until you deal with it.

which we need to be ready for as well. So that that spirit inside of us is very real. We can all access it too. And one way to access it that you that you nail that I love is laying underneath the stars and looking up into that universe, you know, and just asking yourself, what is all this about? That's a good way. That's a spirit, that's the spirit of play too. You know, there is a freedom on laying on your back on a really beautiful or going for a little walk.

You know, however you want it, but just looking up into the sky and letting your brain be free with wondering what is what is up there. You're right, it does. It makes us feel so small.

Matthew (51:28)

That kind

of openness and willingness is the ha has really been the key to unlocking so much of this for me. this the beginning of this second year of sobriety for me has been so much of that uncovered stuff about myself and then me trying to live and learn how to act and behave in a way that is in alignment with

Who I am and who I want to be. Who I who I am, I think was always in there, but I was either avoiding it or unable to tap into it or didn't want to look at it. And I have developed a relationship with myself before from that firm, solid ground where I can stand up tall, honestly, with integrity. And

Yeah,

I needed to do all of that. And it took a while. It took a while. It b I think before we started recording, we were talking a little bit about, you know, don't date in your first year. my job is such that you know, I I have a lot of time in the afternoons and I can go to a lot of meetings and I can participate a lot. And and my partner at the time had left me and so I was

I had a lot of space to be able to do this in my first year. And indeed, I did not date in my first year. I have since started dating. there's there's a very lovely, beautiful woman I found who's also sober and and I'm able to talk we speak the same language of recovery and you know yeah, I I've I've been able to learn so much about myself.

showing up for someone else like that. one of the parts of the of that inventorying process is to write down a list of values and ideals. And I I want to just read a couple of them. I I I want honesty because I want to be honest. I want to be wanted. I want to give of my most authentic self. I want to be heard and respected.

I want to have mutual understanding and affection, spending quality time doing normal life things, consistency, effort, growth, curiosity and learning, reciprocity, equality and equanimity. The and I had no idea. I I may have had an idea, but I I just had no connection to even what I wanted and who I was before I did any of this, before I even

took a step back and looked at the full picture and then zoomed back in and and started looking at little individual areas and well what do I really want? Who who am I really? And I've begun to uncover and discover myself in sobriety because I'm not covering up or masking it with drugs and alcohol and you know I'm able to see it.

in a or lean on the people around me that can see it better than me. And and from there I can participate in my own life and then participate in someone else's life too, which is lovely. It's it's a miracle that I'm sober. It's amazing to be sober. I love it. I love sobriety because it's given me a life. It's given me life.

Eric Fischer (54:30)

You you were asking the hardest questions to find the deepest part of yourself. And what sprung up on the other side was something like, Well, all of your instruments as you build the new symphony of your new life are all in alignment, right? Because music and life, philosophers say, I mean, this is hand in hand, right? Because one violin, one little instrument goes out of tune, it could break the whole piece of music.

How does that feel? Like you're building your whole new orchestra and symphony again because you went deep down into yourself and came out the other side with new music. I don't know. I don't know how'd that go. Does that land or no? Kevin?

Matthew (55:05)

No, that's a Yeah, that that's a great that's a great analogy.

Kevin (55:09)

yeah,

Matthew (55:11)

The the the girl that I'm dating now

Kevin (55:11)

I I'm a little

Matthew (55:12)

is she and I went on our first date to the orchestra. Orchestra's my thing. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (55:15)

Music is life. You stay around philosophy long enough. What's that?

Matthew (55:20)

our the the girl I'm

Kevin (55:21)

I'm I'm just I'm

just slightly annoyed that Eric gave me a new metaphor that I'm have to rattle around in my head now

Eric Fischer (55:26)

Ha ha ha.

Kevin (55:28)

that I like that. sorry, Matt, go ahead.

Eric Fischer (55:30)

Yeah.

Matthew (55:31)

No, orchestra is kinda my thing and interior design and architecture is kinda her thing. And so the the girl I'm dating, my girlfriend now is

Eric Fischer (55:38)

yeah. That that works.

Kevin (55:39)

Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew (55:40)

we went to the orchestra at the Walt Disney concert hall in downtown. You know, it's these these connections are the the the things that we can each relate to separately but then at the same time together

Music is the most sublime of the arts is one of my favorite quotes. And it's it it it's life is really a beautiful thing and and I thought for so long that, you know, alcohol as a part of my life was, you know, enhancing my experience. And really what it was doing was it was covering up and masking and taking from my ability to experience life fully. It

It did not actually enhance my life, my my experience of living. And now that I'm sober, I get to experience a different version of life. It's not always easy. It's not like, you know, everything is unicorns and sunshine and rainbows and kittens. It's i there are still difficulties in life. There are logistical considerations of living life that

can be hard, but I get to do it from this place of integrity now, which is amazing.

Eric Fischer (56:49)

Mm-hmm.

Well

well, I I I was just thinking, so so therefore does that mean that that that what is hard in our life is worth it because we know what's on the other side? So so like so like right, so what so what we're trying to do by go by by by tackling things that are straight on that are hard in our life,

well, we're becoming the buffalo. Because on the other side of that is the beauty of life. So it's the blue skies and it's the fresh grass and it's the peace. because if we don't deal with what it is that scares us, it'll haunt us, right? So we're trying to we're trying to kill dragons before they start spitting flames at us.

So kill small things that are hard while they're small. Right. So you've done this big load of the work over a year and a half. And now are you able to kind of like are you able to pick on, pick up on things that that if they were to be ignored, they grow? And can you pick them off a little easier nowadays? The hard things in life, can you get ahead of them?

Matthew (57:48)

Yeah, one one hundred percent. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (57:51)

Yeah.

Matthew (57:51)

Those some of those things that I mentioned, like being inconsiderate or being emotionally dysregulated, the intrusive thoughts, you know, letting the intrusive thoughts win. those are those are some of the things that I wrote down when I did this inventorying process. And I am I have been made

so aware of them now that instead of you know being inconsiderate and then continuing to be inconsiderate because I'm unaware of it or I'm just simply not looking at it, I still can be inconsiderate. I still can be emotionally dysregulated. I still have those strange thoughts sometimes. but I I recognize them and I notice them and I have the ability and like a like a a practice now to pause.

Ask for guidance, pick up the phone and make a phone call. Hey, is this the right thing for me to do? Or hey, I don't know if this is, you know, the the right situation for me to be in. I don't I don't know how to act in this situation. I don't know what to do. I I have a group a group of people, I have meetings, I have a a journal that I use. Where's my journal? It's around here somewhere. I I keep I keep all of my stuff right here.

behind the couch. Kevin will be happy to know that my journal is within arm's reach. I write

Kevin (59:01)

Nice.

Matthew (59:01)

things down and

Eric Fischer (59:02)

So

Matthew (59:02)

when they come out of my head and I look at them on the page, they read back to me differently than I remember them just swirling around in the abyss of my mind. And that's that's really Yeah.

Eric Fischer (59:09)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, because our brain makes things up on us. Yeah.

Kevin (59:11)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew (59:17)

That self awareness and clarity is something I I never had before. And is really I think the

The

way that I live sober.

Eric Fischer (59:27)

So you've gone in a real way, you've gone from surviving to thriving.

Matthew (59:31)

I think you could say that, yeah. It feels like that to me.

Eric Fischer (59:33)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And we're not and with and with that thriving piece, we're not ta we're not, you know, we're not on the postmodern, you know, relative relativism side of life, right? We're not talking about buying a big old fancy car that's gonna break down in six months and all you wanna do is drive it over a cliff, you know, because that pr promotes more problems. You're talking about

You for you, thriving for you internally, intrinsically, just on a normal day, you feel good. Not to say we don't have tough days, right? But you're be able to kill these dragons while they're small before they grow up. Because you did the work early on, that was a heavy lift. and now fast forward through time, you're able to track. And now you're kind of ahead of it with that self-awareness and consciousness and the ability to pause and you have you built, you built yourself.

Kevin (1:00:19)

And I'll throw in there y did the heart you did the work early on and continue to do the work and continue to build, right? 'cause I think that's the a b a big factor that you know, we don't just arrive and then, okay, see ya, I'm done. I'm good. Like and this is with anything, right? It's anything. If we want to keep doing something, we gotta keep doing something.

And so yeah, you're still putting in the work. Now that's changed. Obviously, we've talked about that. You know, it's different today than it was 500 plus days ago. not all of it. Some of it's still the same. Some of it's still going to a meeting. Some of it's still like the, you know, blocking and tackling, so to speak, of you know, the nuts and bolts of it, whatever, of just, you know, this is something that helps me that I'm gonna continue to do in some way.

Yeah, I was thinking with your buffalo and dragon analogies and I would sit there. I I got I'm a very visual person. I have buffalo running around through into storms and dragons and fields. Like I it's all in my head

Eric Fischer (1:01:12)

Yeah. Hey man.

Kevin (1:01:17)

right now, but I was thinking like that was like bringing up for me that, you know, what pain am I willing to

Eric Fischer (1:01:23)

Mm.

Kevin (1:01:24)

struggle through? You know, 'cause it's it's gonna be it it's potentially pain either way. or

Always pain, you know. I'm thinking of st you know, the show stuts on Netflix or pain, uncertainty, and constant work are his three three aspects of life. but it's you know, we talk about alcohol, you know, it's that comfort I'm in my comfort zone and things like that, but it's not. It's it's just the familiar and the pain of the unknown is can be difficult. So either way, it's like we're going to have to

W do something different to get a different result.

But that doesn't mean that and then once we do that thing, okay, well there's gonna be some another struggle after that. But that doesn't mean it's bad. You mentioned it, Eric. I think about that getting, you know, it's not that they go away, it's just that we get stronger, we are able to bear these new new things a little bit easier than before.

Eric Fischer (1:02:15)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it it w may still scare us, but we get more brave to take it on. Yeah.

Kevin (1:02:21)

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:02:23)

Yeah. So our we're we're our capacity is growing deeper and richer, more more

More c more comprehensive, in a way. So yeah,

I'm

really happy for you. Your story's

Matthew (1:02:32)

Guys, I really appreciate

Eric Fischer (1:02:34)

great.

Kevin (1:02:34)

Yeah.

Matthew (1:02:34)

I really appreciate the opportunity to be able to speak about this in this way on this platform. You know, the work never ends. And Kevin, you like you mentioned, you know, it looks different than it did at the beginning, but as I continue to do those things, you know, I can do it in a I can do like a spot check, or I can do it like nightly, or I can,

Kevin (1:02:55)

Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew (1:02:57)

you know, reflect on and

And then promptly, you know, right my wrongs, you know, because I have that kind of that self-awareness of these things now, and I have this ability to and and a sort of mechanism to go about doing that. this kind of conversation or you know, sharing of of a story from someone is a part of the selflessness, like my selfish.

story is just mine, but then sharing it and publishing it and putting it out there is part of that cycle, that circle of recovery that you know spreading the word and sharing my message and sharing the message, not the mess.

Eric Fischer (1:03:40)

well said. Well said.

Matthew (1:03:41)

And you know, because it was messy,

but it it's not as messy as it was now. I now I have a message of how to, you know, clear away some of that mess. And you know, it's it makes me proud and very happy to be able to share in this kind of way on this kind of platform and to be able to do that kind of continuous work. The work's never over. I there's no graduation from this program. It's

it's a process and it's I'm only gonna make progress. I I can strive for those ideals and values and and I may never hit them a hundred percent of the time, but I know what they are and I can always be aiming toward what I want for my life, which is incredible.

Kevin (1:04:25)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:04:25)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin (1:04:26)

Yeah, thanks Matt. really appreciate you sharing this with us here today. Anything else

Eric Fischer (1:04:30)

Yeah.

Kevin (1:04:30)

that wanna touch on before we start to wrap up?

so what did you learn this week? it could be completely off topic, not sobriety related, just a little nugget for the the listeners, that we can all share if we want. I don't know if anybody has anything off

Eric Fischer (1:04:47)

well I I'm in I'm I'm starting my master's program in January for to become a a therapist. And I and so I'm reading a bunch of books right now and I and I learned something that that the that that anybody listening or watching may so every behavior is trying to solve a problem.

That's like a journal entry prompt. What are what are my behaviors? You know, maybe write down five or ten of them. my every behavior is trying to solve a problem. And every behavior makes sense for the person who is performing it.

Kevin (1:05:21)

And for would you for that specific problem, right? That

Eric Fischer (1:05:24)

Right.

Kevin (1:05:25)

in that maybe specific time that it started too. Cause it might not make sense over time, or or fit

Eric Fischer (1:05:28)

Yeah. Yeah. No. Well I mean well well

Kevin (1:05:33)

together as w as well as it once did, but

Eric Fischer (1:05:35)

Yeah, because

you know, like you and I are talking, you tell me a problem and we mark it, right? And then or or and then and then I go see or you go see a therapist and they go, okay, well what happened, right? Something broke in our life and they track it. Now they track it. You know, what happened last month? What happened six weeks ago? What happened what happened? What happened all two years ago? this thing right here, this behavior, this choice, this action, you get away with it in the near term.

But you can't bend the fabric of reality without it snapping back on you at some point in time. And so that's, I mean, kind of an example of like, we'll get away with it in the near term. And then all of a sudden you go speak to somebody who does a nice job. Like I loved when you made the comment with your therapist, like, I didn't know what he was doing to me. That's an indication of a good therapist right there. Not you not knowing what they're doing until you start seeing some results, right? Because they're underneath

Kevin (1:06:23)

Yeah. Ninja.

Eric Fischer (1:06:26)

the they are. They're underneath it's like,

You know, I seeing one person from 20 different lenses. It's a really fascinating way to think. but you know, the cool thing is we can all learn this on ourselves too, you know. Like we can read some really cool books and kind of like take some steps, watch some really cool podcasts nowadays about psychology and philosophy and neuroscience. And that's that math, that's that curious lens, you know, because all that tie naturally ties in spirituality, it ties in history.

ties in the universe. I mean, there's a lot in those spaces right there. It's all growth, personality, character. but yeah, every my what what I learned in that book that I that I pulled that from was Becoming a Person, by Dr. Keegan. I don't think that was it was Carl's well that yeah,

Kevin (1:07:10)

I thought it was Rogers. Carl Rogers.

Eric Fischer (1:07:13)

I'm that's a different one. I am reading that one too, Carl Rogers. Yeah. So I'm I'm mixing my

mixing my books up. I'll maybe we can put it in the show notes. but anyway, yeah, every person's you know, all of our behaviors are trying to cyber solve a problem. So

what about you guys?

Kevin (1:07:26)

Yeah. I found that

a helpful exercise sometimes to go back and I know it helped me a bit. Like sometimes we can bring guilt and shame into this too and and it's not always gonna be this way. Like, but I know when going back and looking like, well, how did I how did I start drinking? Like how did this show up for me originally?

Eric Fischer (1:07:46)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin (1:07:46)

And yeah, it was a lot it was mainly in college, is when it started, let's say.

But over time, like I I still drank socially a lot a lot of the time. But then I'd come home from work and I'd grab a beer and I would have that to be like, it's a stressful day, right? I didn't drink the amount I drank like, you know, twelve fifteen years later, in that same scenario. But that that one beer just made it like, my brain's like, ooh, yeah, remember this. Like you you relaxed after that.

Eric Fischer (1:08:13)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin (1:08:15)

so then it's like two beers. And then, you know.

Then something happens and it kind of just propels that forward, as you said. Yeah. I mean, that was a helpful thing for me.

Matthew (1:08:23)

Progressive nature of alcoholism.

Kevin (1:08:26)

Yeah.

Matt, any any nuggets?

And it could be like I said, anything.

Eric Fischer (1:08:30)

Anything new you've learned this week?

Matthew (1:08:31)

well I don't

Eric Fischer (1:08:33)

It could be something goofy too.

Matthew (1:08:33)

I don't know if it's a

nugget I don't know if it's a nugget for the week, but a nugget for a nugget for my whole sort of journey. kind of relating to to the the spiritual part that I was talking about a little bit. I have I have this coin which was given to me by by a friend with a hummingbird on it. And I I sensed a

have many other hummingbird things around. And the hummingbird is is meaningful to me because that I think it was like the week or maybe two weeks after my mom passed away, I was not sure what to do with drinking. I had downloaded Reframe. I had gotten the therapist and the psychiatrist and I was struggling. And I was on the phone with my uncle

Who has done a different 12-step program, and he was telling me all kinds of things about honesty and humility and willingness. And he was, you know, doing that same sort of ninja therapist thing. you know, just just coming up alongside and walking with me, meeting me where I was at. And it was during that phone call or or just after, I was sitting right here on my front porch and a hummingbird.

came and flew up into my face and flitted there for a second and just like looked right at me.

And in that moment, which only lasted a second or two, I just knew, in that moment, that my mom had just come to visit me. And I I don't know where that thought came from. I don't know, I don't know why it was a hummingbird. But I don't think that I'm supposed to know why or how. I just knew. And for me, being open.

To seeing signs and shown the correct direction, which I I'm I am positive that that was the message in that moment was that I was being given a message on that phone call, honesty, humility, willingness, open-mindedness that I was supposed to see and that I was supposed to listen to that. That's been the sort of nugget that follows me in my life all the time now.

And so I have little I have a hummingbird feeder outside. I carry the coin on my keychain. I have a little hummingbird thing that my girlfriend gave me that's hung up in the window in the kitchen right by where I make coffee. So I have this sort of reflective moment each morning. yeah, that's not a nugget for the week, that's a nugget for this week and last week and next week and

Kevin (1:10:50)

Yeah, every week.

Matthew (1:10:52)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:10:51)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah,

Kevin (1:10:52)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:10:53)

it's great.

Kevin (1:10:53)

I love that.

Matthew (1:10:54)

Thanks

for letting me share.

Kevin (1:10:55)

Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing.

Eric Fischer (1:10:57)

Yeah, that's it was good. It was

great having you on today, yeah.

Kevin (1:11:00)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:11:01)

what do what do you think, Kat?

Kevin (1:11:02)

I don't know. I my my nuggets are always all over the place 'cause usually I think of fifty different things. 'cause you bringing that up and sorry for your loss too. the 'cause this week I've been it's funny 'cause my mom would always cross stitch stuff for everybody. Like I have like a this elaborate like Star Wars thing over here that is that you would

Until you get up to it, you think it's just a photograph or a a artist like painting. but she just like does all this stuff. So I I am going to and I might have shared this before too, but I have that's like my been my project, art project for the get back into this week. it was after a one the journal meetings I hosted recently where we were just talking about getting back into

Things that things that might have been right in front of us. I don't think I shared this last week with with everyone. trying to pull up the quote here. It was Suleika Jawad. She wrote the Book of Alchemy, which is a good book related to it's a hundred day project essentially for like journaling and that. but her quote on the Instagram,

was i posts that she made was sometimes the things you know there was more to it but sometimes the things that we can do anytime become the things we never do at all. I don't think I shared this last week, did I? I don't think so. On the

Eric Fischer (1:12:18)

No.

Kevin (1:12:19)

but you know, it's like she talked about like how proximity is like that kind of camouflage of I'll get to that later. I'll get to that eventually. Right. I'll do that. And instead of just picking up the guitar and like

practicing or in my case I was like, okay, I s I said I was gonna somebody mentioned 'cause I started doing that 'cause I w she started a project where, you know, she did like probably three percent of it 'cause it's a big it it was a big Star Wars like thing she was gonna make for somebody and she did like two out of fifty squares. and I was gonna finish it. So I I got it and I was gonna finish it.

And now that's what my my floor is, is like all like all I got all the thread laid out to make sure I got everything. I'm gonna start it. But in the meantime, I started something for my daughter. I'm making her for her. She's heading to college next week. So we are officially gonna be empty n empty nesters at this time next Monday.

Eric Fischer (1:13:16)

Wow.

Kevin (1:13:17)

which is kind of crazy. But but all that to be said, sometimes the things we can do anytime become the things we never do at all. Just start.

Just what's what's around you that you know that you can pick up that you've been meaning to do, that you've said like, yeah, when I get the time, I'll do that. You don't need a dedicated hour or a a particular lesson from, you know, for the guitar or something just to get started and make the phone call to for the lesson or pull out the you know stuff and see what you need or what you got.

Eric Fischer (1:13:47)

Yeah, yeah.

Kevin (1:13:48)

just start.

Eric Fischer (1:13:49)

Yeah.

Kevin (1:13:49)

So I guess that's my nugget.

Eric Fischer (1:13:51)

Well, and and start and start expecting to be very messy to also, right? Expect to be awful at whatever it is you're

doing

Kevin (1:13:59)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:13:59)

because and that's really important to understand, you know, to be okay with in a real at a real in real in a real way because it fractures our it it create it gives us it's humility, you know, humility enters our soul.

when we start and we understand that it's gonna be messy. And then to your point, we also understand that we don't have to keep going at that thing too. We can pivot and try something else, you know, but get started. Get started

Kevin (1:14:23)

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:14:25)

and and have fun with the messy too, because that as a consequence of understanding that it's gonna be messy and yes, I'm gonna start it as a consequence to that, you're gonna, you're going to redefine failure for yourself as well.

Kevin (1:14:38)

Failure is feedback.

Eric Fischer (1:14:39)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin (1:14:41)

Yeah. Yep.

Eric Fischer (1:14:43)

All right, good stuff guys. It was great being with

Kevin (1:14:44)

So

Eric Fischer (1:14:45)

you both today.

Kevin (1:14:46)

yeah, likewise.

Eric Fischer (1:14:48)

Yeah,

it's fine.

Matthew (1:14:49)

I feel like we had a little men's meeting.

Kevin (1:14:50)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:14:50)

Yeah.

Well, you know, like they say, we're we're you know, I I think that three grown men getting together, we are we are dismantling the idea that you know, you always have to be hard and you always have to look strong and you always have to, you know, show up. We have three types of life pub lives, public, private, and secret. And so this public life that men

think that they have to show up a certain way where it's like, you know, if I cry I'm weak and all these vulnerability pieces. You know, I think three grown men getting together and talking about this stuff is really important. It it's really important because men are suffering. Humanity at scale is suffering, males and females, but you know, men need to hear stuff like this. So d everybody does. But for any man listening right here, you know, like when you cry, you're strong. So

Start believing that. Find a way to start believing that. It is a real strength.

Kevin (1:15:40)

Yeah. And and you know what, the like

relaxation and things like that can come in many different forms and

Eric Fischer (1:15:48)

Yeah.

Kevin (1:15:49)

and all that. And I'm just gonna going along with that message, I'm gonna sit here and continue to cross stitch some of this th

Eric Fischer (1:15:56)

With Momor

with Memento Mori in the background. You know, Marcus Aurelius would be so proud of you, brother. Epithecus

Kevin (1:15:59)

The Vegemore in the background. yeah.

Eric Fischer (1:16:04)

and all them Seneca, they're all just like smiling in their grave.

Kevin (1:16:06)

I I

I was joking with my wife the other day 'cause I'm sitting on the couch and I'm doing this and I and my glasses are like down like slipping down to the bottom of my nose and all that and I just look over and I'm like, This is a good look, isn't it? I'm like,

Eric Fischer (1:16:21)

Yeah.

Kevin (1:16:22)

you're you're digging this right now. The the grandma

Matthew (1:16:24)

Yeah.

Kevin (1:16:24)

the grandma look. No offense about it into this. It was just like we're we're joking about it. but yeah, I'm like, hey, I I like to do

I I like to put together Legos, I like puzzles, all that. That's just that's all this is. Just, you know, putting together a Lego just on this thing. So

Eric Fischer (1:16:40)

Yeah, yeah.

Kevin (1:16:41)

and it's a hell of a lot cheaper.

Eric Fischer (1:16:43)

yeah, I bet. I bet.

Kevin (1:16:44)

All right.

All right. Thanks, gentlemen. and thank you all for listening to another episode of the Reframable Podcast brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. And I want to thank you again for listening and be sure to come back.

For another episode. Have a great day.