Understanding Shame, Trauma, and the Path Back to Yourself

Join Coach Eric Fischer and Dr. Frank Spinelli—physician, certified health and trauma-informed coach, and author of The Shame Compass—for a deep conversation about the emotion most of us spend our lives trying to outrun.

This episode unpacks the crucial difference between guilt and shame: guilt says "I did something bad" and can move us toward repair, while shame whispers "I am bad" and attaches itself to our identity. You'll learn why that inner voice isn't truly your own, how it gets installed in childhood or through later trauma, and why running from shame never works—because the goal isn't to eliminate it, but to build the literacy to understand what it's trying to tell you.

Along the way, you'll get practical, usable tools: the four P's for staying grounded when you're activated (pause, present, ponder, possibilities), the practice of separating the intellectual voice from the impulsive, childlike one instead of staying fused with both, and the difference between toxic shame and healthy shame that points you back toward your core values. The conversation explores how shame breeds in isolation, why community and service dilute its power, and how naming what we feel—out loud, in the moment—can free us. You'll also hear an honest look at how shame shows up differently around our bodies, our roles, our sexuality, and our sense of provision, and how much of it was handed to us by institutions, families, and culture rather than chosen.

Whether you're working to change your relationship with alcohol or simply want to live with less armor and more authenticity, this episode offers a compassionate, science-informed framework for getting back up after you've been knocked down.

The Reframeable podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the #1 app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. If you have a topic you'd like us to cover on the podcast, send an email to podcast@reframeapp.com or, if you're on the Reframe app, give it a shake and let us know what you want to hear.

Transcript

Eric Fischer (00:00)

Welcome everyone to another episode of the Reframable Podcast, a podcast that brings you people's stories and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship, not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more. Because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass. This podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app.

Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. My name is Eric Fisher. I am a certified recovery performance and lifestyle design coach here at Reframe. And today's guest is Frank Spinelli. Frank is a physician, certified health and trauma-informed coach.

Specializing in shame literacy and addiction recovery. His 2013 memoir, P Shy, chronicling his childhood sexual abuse, led to his testimony in the landmark Boy Scouts of America bankruptcy case. He has authored five books and contributed to two more books. His upcoming narrative nonfiction.

The Shame Compass, a radical framework for trauma healing and self-acceptance, comes out this August 25th. Frank, whoa. You are impressive. You know, like you've done a lot in

Frank Spinelli (01:25)

Yeah. Wow, it was thanks for reading that. I'm so glad I wrote it because it sounded so impressive.

Eric Fischer (01:37)

your life. You have your your next book coming out. How do you feel about that?

Frank Spinelli (01:39)

Yeah.

I am I am of course I'm excited, but I'm also in a little bit of disbelief. Like I can't believe it's finally happening. It feels like it feels like in the twenty twenty one and I was just putting together pieces of ideas of articles and scoping out and framing refra the the framework of compass and and here we are.

What is it, five years later, and to think it's coming out this month. And probably by the time this gets published, it'll already be out.

Eric Fischer (02:13)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm I'm excited to get into this with you. you know, I I like we said before we, you know, press record. I I'm I'm particularly interested in this, selfishly to learn because I have gone through I had gone through before my own addiction, my entire life, you know, and never understood, never paid attention to shame or guilt.

If

I did something wrong, I would feel guilty for doing it. but shame, on the other hand, is is I'd say a few years new to me. so what do you what what what are we going to learn here today? Why why was this book important to you? And what am I and the audience going to learn?

Frank Spinelli (02:55)

Wow, that's that's a good question. It's forcing me to encapsulate everything in one paragraph. I hope that for anyone listening, you are going to walk away with a clear understanding between guilt and shame, and understanding that shame is the voice in your head that tells you you're too much or you're not enough or you're fundamentally broken.

And I would hope that by the end of this session we are going to understand that that voice is not your own, that that voice was installed by someone else, maybe someone like a parent or a teacher, a priest, or maybe a spouse during a bad breakup.

Regardless, you were too traumatized when it happened to push back on that. And for some reason it's been installed in your brain, and and you listen to it. And what I want you to understand is that whatever happened to you, whatever trauma you experienced was not your fault. You did nothing to bring it on. And what I hope you will gain from the framework is to understand shame literacy so that when we are activated, for whatever reason, we can talk to that.

voice and try to understand where it's pointing and what it's protecting us from.

Eric Fischer (04:11)

Yeah, that's that's well said. And we're gonna get into I know in your book you you you you you use that word compass and and we'll talk a little bit more about that. But one one thing that I'd like to to further understand is that relationship between guilt and shame. yeah, what what what's your view of that and how should people think about it, about those two words?

Frank Spinelli (04:31)

Well, it it's an important to dis distinguish, and you did so beautifully whether you knew it or not. So guilt is I did something bad.

And I feel badly about it. And easy example. I commented on somebody's outfit, and they they thought I was a little bit too harsh, so now I feel bad. It's about behavior. So guilt can actually be something that can help us. You can apologize, you can repair what you did. It's behavior. Shame is I'm bad. I'm broken. I knew this was gonna happen because it always happens.

To me. It's that voice in your head. And the problem with identity is how do you then disentangle my identity is bad from the facts? We don't. We just accept it. And so most people who have had any sort of trauma in their lives.

Whenever they're activated, they hear the voice telling them that they're bad or fundamentally broken or you know, whatever language they use, and we accept it and we live with it. And for so long, many people, especially in trauma recovery, as I'm sure you've helped in your own career, are trying to move away from shame. They're trying to outrun it. And I'm here to tell you, unfortunately, shame is not something you can run away from. Shame is an emotion. You can't

can't get rid of it. It exists. It's how do you interpret what it's saying and how do you use it as information, not indictment.

Eric Fischer (06:04)

Hmm. Yeah. So we have to be aware of it first. And then you so shame is the I am, the identity piece. What I which

Frank Spinelli (06:10)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Fischer (06:11)

I would imagine as well, right? If we're if we accept that whether whether well do we accept it consciously, or does some of this stem from childhood and it's and it's a it's an unconscious acceptance because of the environment that we grew up in.

Frank Spinelli (06:26)

Yeah, I mean that's that's when it happens in in children. So children who were abandoned, children who were physically abused or sexually abused, don't have the words to describe it as abuse because they keep it a secret usually. So they live in this world of secrecy and that

Mu very much later on we'll deal with when we talk about addiction is why people secret drink or secretly use drugs. But for so long, children will hold that secret and they will internalize it. And they don't call it abuse. They call it I'm bad. That's why bad things happen to me. And unfortunately, it takes years for children to grow up to understand I'm not bad. This happened to me. I didn't want this to happen. And then later on it also

happens for adults. And it if you take a step back, the whole concept of identity is really what's the fundamental problem.

So you you and I can understand, appreciate this. Is it really that you're an alcoholic, or is it that you misuse alcohol? People get attached to the identity. And I and I constantly, and I know you do too, when we talk with clients, we're talking about what is the behavior. It's not really about the alcohol or the drugs or the sex or the food. It's about masking the feeling that the behavior then makes me want.

makes activates me. So it's really about differentiating identity versus behavior.

Eric Fischer (08:00)

Interesting, yeah, because we cannot outrun what does not serve us. And if we try to hold on to it, all it does is terrorize us, right? And then there's an there's that escape to the alcohol or or like you mentioned, novelty at scale, right? Sex and social media, overeating or or all of it, watching Netflix all night.

Frank Spinelli (08:19)

Or I

or one or more, yeah, exactly.

Eric Fischer (08:22)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's not just one. I mean, oftentimes what I'll say is like like when we organize the life on the lifestyle piece, alcohol will fall into its proper bucket of not

Frank Spinelli (08:31)

Mm-hmm. Right.

Eric Fischer (08:32)

because it it it's it's novelty. and there's a lot that goes into novelty. You mentioned shame that we cannot outrun it. and then I know in your book you use that word integrate. walk me through that.

Frank Spinelli (08:43)

So for many of us, we we survive and

For many people who survive a trauma or a traumatic experience, we learn to wear armor. And that's to protect us. And for many of us, as I'm sure you are, I'm always speaking for you today, but for many of us who have that armor, we then go on to build lives, beautiful lives. We have families, we have careers. And so, what I intended to do with the book is to teach people.

How to use shame when it resurfaces, because it will resurface. And how do you live a more authentic life without the armor?

Because when we wear armor constantly as a second skin, we're really shutting out a lot of people. We may allow certain people into our lives, but we don't really allow others. We put up walls instead of barriers.

Eric Fischer (09:36)

Mm-hmm.

Frank Spinelli (09:37)

And so when I was looking through my own journey, and like I said, I survived child sexual abuse. I went back. I found my child molester.

And eventually I became a doctor. I got married. I had a happy life. And then the pandemic hit. And the pandemic isolation provided the perfect petri dish for shame because shame breeds in isolation. So I wasn't I wasn't having all those pillars that moored me to my daily routines. I wasn't going to work. I wasn't interacting with colleagues and I was home alone.

And at the same time, as you said at the top with the introduction, I was involved in a landmark lawsuit against the Boy Scouts of America. Over ninety-five thousand men.

Who were suing the Boy Scouts of America for mishandling their child molestation case. And at the same time, when I was at my lowest point in the lockdown, secret drinking, lying to my spouse, and and really lying to myself, I had to fill out a 47-page questionnaire.

That had to document specific details about the child molestation that occurred decades earlier. And I had what I call my rock bottom moment. I blacked out, I don't remember a lot of it. I woke up the n the next day, I don't even know what time it was, and

I remember this vividly. I went into the bathroom and I looked in the mirror. And I start the book by saying, if you can face your reflection in the mirror every morning without turning away, that is the best sign of bravery because I couldn't even look at myself. I was so horrified. And I remember looking at my reflection and saying, I this is not the way I want to live. This is not the life I planned for myself. And that began this whole process.

Of you know, of recovery, basically recovery. And through that, I said, What if I have it all wrong? What if I'm running away from shame? And what if you can't run away from shame? And so I plotted it out. And the part you're talking about was the A in the compass framework, which is acceptance. And acceptance means integrating whatever happened, whatever trauma it is, into your life. It will be a part of your life.

Forever. And I know for many people hearing that, it's like, crap, great. Now I'm gonna have this forever. Yes, you're gonna have it forever. But if you get help,

Or if you read my book, you'll understand how to integrate it into your lives instead of having been saddled by it or haunted by it. I think a lot of us don't want to face our traumas because it's frightening. Let's face it, it's scary. It's called trauma for a reason. And so if you accept it as a part of your life and integrate it into your life, it will become a less, less heavy part of your life. And one clear distinction is when I say

acceptance and integration, I don't mean denying it. Denying is not what I'm about. It definitely happened to you and your feelings are valid, but it doesn't have to be such a main part of your life that it defines you, which is what identity is.

Eric Fischer (12:55)

can I also feel shame for what I for my actions for what I did?

Frank Spinelli (13:00)

Sure. you know, shame again is an an emotion. and it's it's about it's about understanding what i the shame is telling you. So for example, that same example from earlier.

We can say something like guilt versus shame. I make fun of somebody's outfit. They tell me that really hurt my feelings. I feel guilty about it, so I apologize. And there you go, you have a positive benefit. someone I insult their outfit and they say you hurt my feelings. And I say, see, you're a bad person, Frank. But there are two types of shame if you want to be.

Specific. So there is a healthy version of shame. And then there's a toxic version. So the toxic one we're very familiar with. You're a bad person. Bad things happen to you all the time, Spinelli. You insulting her outfit is just another par for the course of who you are. You're a bad person. So that's toxic shame. Healthy shame is, you know what, Frank? You did make fun of her outfit.

But you know what? When you think about it, what are your core values? And this is something I ask all my clients, what are your core values now? So mine, and I'll make you know, give it to you today: kindness, compassion, and loyalty. Okay.

Well, in this particular exercise, you made fun of somebody's outfit, you hurt their feelings, and now you feel ashamed about what you did. But what is it really telling you? It's telling you that your actions, your activity was out of alignment with your core values. That's a teaching moment because you want to be kinder, you want to be more compassionate, you want to be more loyal. So while you know it still feels bad.

You can then change your behavior by saying, you know what, this was out of line with my core values. I'm better than this. Sort of like what I did in that mirror that day. I realized that this wasn't aligned with who I want to be. And I think anybody who is standing on the precipice of a of a you know rock bottom moment, think of it as you are standing at a threshold, and you can either have the life you already have.

Or you can have the life you dream of. And it's about taking those steps forward. And I think that's basically the differentiator when you think of healthy shame versus toxic shame.

Eric Fischer (15:21)

Yeah, yeah. And I and I would have to on the on the healthy shame piece, that would that would require me first to be aware. First first for me

Frank Spinelli (15:28)

Yes.

Eric Fischer (15:28)

to know what my values are. second be be aware. and then and then have the what do we want to call it, the prowess or competencies to be able to to look inward and say, wait, hold on a second. Like I was out of alignment right there. How can I how can I how can

Frank Spinelli (15:44)

Yeah, and

Eric Fischer (15:45)

I self-correct?

Frank Spinelli (15:46)

and Eric, it's so hard to do this

when you're

Eric Fischer (15:49)

It's hard, yeah.

Frank Spinelli (15:50)

activated, because you're activated.

Eric Fischer (15:52)

Mm.

Frank Spinelli (15:53)

So that's why in the book I teach about the four P's.

So, you know, in real life, not when you're out. So I'll give you another example that I used in the book. I had this wonderful, wonderful professor, you know, from Stanford, real hot shot doctor. Brilliant, brilliant. I loved him. I loved him. And he had a little bit of a snarky attitude, which I kind of like. And one day I was on the other end of that snarky attitude.

Eric Fischer (16:17)

Ha ha ha

ha.

Frank Spinelli (16:18)

And I I literally you talk about fight or flight, I froze. I was crushed. I was crushed. And when I went back and reflected on it, I thought, you know what? What was upsetting me in that moment? Well, it was the way he was talking to me. Well, who talked to me like that? Well, my child molested to talk to me like that. And

Eric Fischer (16:38)

Mm.

Frank Spinelli (16:38)

so I had to parent myself in saying, but guess what? You're not an eleven year old boy.

You're a grown-ass doctor, and what he said to you had nothing to do with anything that happened to you when you were 11. So I developed the four P's because I think in real life, when you're when you're not activated, understand that in any situation where you feel like it's potentially activating or triggering, pause. Don't answer. Because our instinct is to knee-jerk. Don't answer.

Drop yourself, stay present in the moment. Where am I? I'm not 11. I'm talking to this professor. Maybe he's having a bad day. Maybe this has nothing to do with me. And when you ponder the third P, you can then see what the situation really is. And then, and only then will you have the fourth P, which is possibilities. How do I answer him? And do you know what the best answer is in those situations when you're active?

You know what, I heard you. I'm gonna need a minute to think about that. Because we're all too easy to get triggered and react and probably say something we'll regret later.

Eric Fischer (17:44)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So stay inside of that stimuli and response. Yeah,

Frank Spinelli (17:47)

Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Eric Fischer (17:49)

yeah, yeah, yeah. Really. I mean, you know, because we all want to push things away, forget that they exist, and just keep moving forward, right? And and

Frank Spinelli (17:57)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (17:59)

and and oftentimes it, you know, what I've found for myself working through shame and guilt and choices that I've made, experiences, big and small tea traumas and and all this kind of.

inner work, if we want to call it that, is is oftentimes it's a feeling that cannot be defined unless we become aware of it. And so when we when we slow way down and we get curious and we try to kind of figure out what this feeling is, then we can put some words to it and then take action on it.

and so we now now let's just maybe move forward a little bit. So we're working to integrate it, this shame and accept it, and then and now what? And now what do we do?

Frank Spinelli (18:38)

Well, after acceptance would be S. So it's sustaining it. And by sustaining, I mean living it with shame literacy. So really understanding the resilience that you can provide yourself. So, you know, one of the things when we talk about resilience, people get confused. So at Reframe, what do we do? We teach people tools.

So that they can implement those tools when they have a craving or when they're having a fight with their boss and they may want to drink. We give them tools to access. The Shame Compass doesn't provide you with tools for resilience to prevent you from falling down. It's giving you tools to show you how to get back up because that's what's going to happen. You're going to get knocked down.

And so it's very important for you to learn shame literacy. And that really is basically what I was saying to you earlier. It's understanding what is the voice in your head, who is that voice, mapping, which is the Understanding what the origin of that voice is, who put it in you, and when and why. And understanding that. And then I talk about this probably every meeting or every, well, probably every meeting I moderate.

Is just because you hear a voice, that doesn't mean they're speaking facts. Those are thoughts, those are intrusive thoughts. And certainly we know that

That voice, because it's definitely there to tell you all the bad things you ever did. I call it the blooper reel of everything you've ever done wrong in your life, especially the next day after you maybe were over drinking. But certainly in everyday life, especially like you go to a meeting and I think I did an okay job, and then on the way home, I'm like, I don't think I nailed it. No, you stumbled a lot. And then you're like, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Facts.

The meeting went fine. Two, my boss actually said good job. Three, I got through all my slides and I felt pretty rehearsed and confident. So why am I letting this voice who is someone else tell me any differently? And why would I believe them? So that's what I mean by learning shame literacy is really putting the the the words listening to the words and trying to differentiate whether they're facts or not.

Eric Fischer (20:57)

Yeah, I I I relate to that really well. the the way I the what the way I hear that is metacognition, right? Because because we at at minimum we have you're smiling. You're like I you're like Eric, I already know this. But but but but

Frank Spinelli (21:08)

Yeah. No, no, go ahead, I want to hear it.

Eric Fischer (21:13)

like okay, so at minimum we have two voices in our head, right?

One

is at minimum. And if and if you're ADHD like me, I mean, my gosh,

Frank Spinelli (21:17)

At minimum.

Eric Fischer (21:22)

people, you might have, I don't even know, a hundred. I don't know. but

Frank Spinelli (21:26)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (21:27)

a whole lot of going through, you know, ripping through the head. So at minimum, we have two opposing voices, one of which is intellectual, objective, reason based in reason, and

What would you say? The the has the intellectual side. Okay. The other side is impulsive, childlike, reactive,

Frank Spinelli (21:40)

Right. Impulsa.

Eric Fischer (21:43)

emotional. and if we are if we believe, if Eric, if me, Eric Fisher believes that these voices are me, the man who looks in the mirror, then I'm then

Frank Spinelli (21:53)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (21:54)

I'm cognitively fused with them, right? So I'm one with my impulses. I'm embedded. Now, if I can start playing and separating.

And creating some distance between those two and speak to them, maybe. Everyone's game that they play in their head is a little different, right? But but now I can have some control in a way. Now we want to use that word control very loosely, but like I I have some curiosity with like what are these trying to tell me and inform me so I can align them and integrate them and bring them in to make me a fully whole human.

And that not only addresses or helps with shame, but other pieces in our life too. Everything at scale. what do you think about that?

Frank Spinelli (22:35)

I totally agree. I think

in you just reiterated the framework right there in your own words. I mean, that's essentially what we're doing. You have this intellectual voice, you have this child impulsive voice, you are fused. And people who live with shame or who react through shame or act via trauma with traumatized, they're reacting with the fusion of both.

And so you have to unbraid those and you have to speak to each individually. I was sort of chuckling because very early on, when that child voice would taunt me, I, in my own world, would say, All right, Frank, shut up, Frank. I would yell at myself. And I hated that. I hated that I was scolding myself.

And then I realized that voice is not mine. And so one of my favorite movies and books is The Shining by Stephen King. And this is such a pivot. But in the movie, Danny has a boy that lives in his mouth named Tony. So I was like, that's who it is. So I started calling that child impulsive taunter or my bully Tony. And it became easy because I would say, Tony, enough. Okay, I got it.

You know, you've had you've told me what I did wrong. I've heard it. And it was a way of compartmentalizing Tony so that I could listen to the intellectual voice who said, you know what, that meeting wasn't that bad. It was actually really good. I think you were prepared. And once you are able to differentiate, which is very important, we talk about this all the time in relationship to other people. Why wouldn't you allow yourself to differentiate from these two people from your past or wherever they?

Coexist and say, you, I get, I understand, you go and play and leave me alone for a little while. So I was chuckling because I remembered where Tony came from, but you're absolutely right. We are all too willing. We are our own worst enemies. We throw road box all the time because why? For so long we believed we didn't deserve better.

And many times, and I'm sure you're you know this when you're working with clients through reframe, you hear people throwing up obstacles, and the first thing I start to ask them is, do you not feel you deserve to be happy? Because if you don't feel you deserve better, then we're not starting at a level ground. We now need to back up a lot more because

Once you arrive at that threshold and say, I want better. This is not what I had in mind when I started out in life, then I feel like that's grist for the mill. But until we can get you there, then it's a matter of doing some background work and maybe a little bit more inner child work or or whatever is required. But certainly I love your example about the older and then maybe the younger.

Eric Fischer (25:28)

Yeah, I I was cognitively fused my entire life before my addiction. I mean I I was in the minor leagues, you know, trying to

Frank Spinelli (25:34)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (25:35)

trying to trying to make it to the big leagues, but you know, fell short. But you know, I can remember thinking to myself, after a great game, I mean

I was the I was like I deserved everything, you know, like all the money and all the this and the that and everything else. I was the best. And then came the bad game. And I was, you know, Eric, Eric, me, like, Eric, you suck. You know, I hate I mean, really, I mean, I can remember

Frank Spinelli (25:59)

Right, yeah.

Eric Fischer (26:00)

being in the locker room and that and that and that kind of like sp that that that when I was working with coaches and psychologists to understand myself, that was a major that was a common thread throughout my whole life, you know. And then you

Because it takes work. It's not because our brain wants us to be safe. And it's that so our inner dialogue oftentimes skews skews negative. That's why it's always easier to remember the losses than the wins. you know, and then and then so you do so so you keep working and keep working, you gain awareness and the shame starts to soften, maybe. and then on on the on the the compass piece that you use in the book,

is what I'm thinking of as S service, is that right? Or or or or using something with it, right?

Frank Spinelli (26:38)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's the last that's the

mm-hmm. Well, the last S is service. And in the book I talk about it being optional. But I I wanna go back one second. you know, you said something that really rang resonated with me. You know, this idea that you suck, you know, it's such a throwaway line, but what impact it can have.

even on an adult man, you know, and and how damaging it could be and how really hard it is for us to say, no, you don't suck. And you know, I I never was into mantras or affirmations. And certainly after the pandemic, I would look in the mirror and say, This is hard. You're doing a great job. I'm proud of you. And those three simple lines, and you can

Make up whatever ones you want for yourself. Spoken to you directly in the mirror, which is the first thing you're gonna do in the day, can set you up for success. And I think a lot of us don't realize we're all too willing to focus on the negative. We're all too willing to focus on our failures. What do we talk about a reframe all the time? my slip-up, my slip-up. Well, how good were you the days before the slip-up? Why not celebrate those? We're all too willing to do that.

And so to get back to the last S, the last S is serve. And like I said earlier, shame wants to breed in isolation. It wants you to be alone. What does alcohol do? It isolates you. You're not social when you're drinking, you're checked out.

So when you're passed out or drunk or binging or secret, shame is right there with you. Shame is pouring the glass for you because it wants you there. And when you remove that and you realize I don't need to drink, I actually don't need substances. I actually want to live a life. I want better. I want to cross that threshold, which I'm sure you know anybody on this call can relate to.

Listening, one of the best things you can do is serve. And by serve, that means getting on a community meeting and sharing your story. The reason why we have meetings isn't because people can vent, it's so people can share.

And it is in those shared stories where I may have no connection with Eric and the minor league baseball. I I have no idea what that world is like, but I understand his plight. I understand what he was going through when he told us. I used to say, Eric, you suck. I know what that feels like. And it is that connection, that connectivity in community that dispels or dilutes shame. Shame.

hates that. You know, and so that's why the last S is how do we transform what happened to us? How do we galvanize around it and make it something empowering so that when other people are on meetings who maybe on day one, they're like, hey, I heard myself in Eric. I definitely saw myself in Frank a little bit. I, you know, this gives me hope. And that's ultimately what you want to do in service for others.

Eric Fischer (29:51)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Beautifully said. And I I you know, the framework that I've kind of built is we need something to run from and we need something to run to. Right. So it kind of nestles us in this very flexible kind of framework. because the brain is literally a goal-seeking machine,

Frank Spinelli (30:07)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (30:08)

right? So without a goal, without a vision, it doesn't know where to go. Okay. So you work through these, you work through the negative emotion pieces and shame and and this is like a lifestyle component, right? Because

It's I mean it i if we if we if we understand and and accept and integrate and start serving and get curious about our shame in the present day, it's not to say that shame is forever gone out of our life, because we can continue exp you know, experiencing this and and and and I can remember as I was working through my process, oftentimes there was something I could feel in the body.

And that I couldn't really articulate it yet up here. And so my question is something like, Okay, can I outthink it? Or or does it start but you mentioned emotion. So it's emotion starts in the body, then the brain recognizes it, then we can do something about it. Okay.

Frank Spinelli (30:58)

Right. So you know, you bring up another thing that i it's really important. So when we when we are ready to tackle shame in our lives, if you say to yourself, All right, I'm interested, what is this framework all about? We're gonna confront it. There's the first C. We're gonna observe it. What is happening when I react or I activate? Okay, I gave you the example with Frank's Ivy League professor, right? And then I'm gonna map it. Where did I map it to? Well, it's easy for me because we've talked

About it, but it's child molester. There you go. So we understand. We're not doing a deep of a dive. And certainly, if you need to do a deep dive, you need to contact a therapist because that's where you should be doing this. This is just identifying where the source is, and then processing. So, what you described is in that chapter. It's the three bodies. You know.

We trap shame in our bodies. We trap trauma in our bodies. We talk about somatic anxiety. It's real. So there is a physical component. And if you've ever read The Body Keeps the Score, you'll know what I'm talking about. It's right there. So when my professor is talking to me in a snarky way, what am I feeling? I'm feeling like this curve.

turbine in my chest. Okay, describe it. Put put words to it. It feels like prickly, it feels like sharp, it feels like it's breaking my ribs up. Okay, great. You've described it.

You experienced it. You're not gonna judge yourself. What is the story body that you're telling yourself? So, physical body, what is the story body? What is the narrative you're playing, or what is Tony telling you? That we can then understand the beliefs, the scripts, the inner voice. And then finally, the relational body. Why is this happening in this context? Well, this man, this professor, is an avatar.

For my child molester. And now I understand this. I understand the entire context of why I have been activated and why I've initiated this domino effect. And again, this takes practice. This is not going to happen after you read the book and say, okay, I got it. It's going to take doing exercises, and it's definitely going to take doing these practices and exercises when you're not activated. But I think.

what I really appreciate most about reframe.

Is that when people understand the science, something clicks? You can wrap your head around it. And you say, okay, I get it. That kind of makes sense. When you understand what shame is doing to you on a cellular level, on a psychological level, you can really sort of wrap your head around how can I then work with it instead of trying to run away from it.

Eric Fischer (33:51)

Yeah, yeah. I I I re you know, I I I feel like

it'll literally like freeze on me for a couple of seconds.

Frank Spinelli (33:59)

But

you know what's so great about that? You know by adapting, by just saying it, you free yourself up.

Eric Fischer (34:05)

Yeah, yeah, you know yeah.

Frank Spinelli (34:06)

Isn't that beautiful? Like you

taught yourself that. You're like, wait a minute, frozen. I'm just gonna say, hey guys, my ADHD froze me for a second. I glitched.

Eric Fischer (34:14)

Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (34:14)

And and you worked out of it. And you know what? You're not a bad person. You're not an idiot. Look, you did it, and it was funny and seamless. So that's exactly it. And you've you've

Eric Fischer (34:21)

Yeah and

Frank Spinelli (34:23)

taught yourself how to unsnap yourself, how to get unstuck. Sorry.

Eric Fischer (34:28)

And and the coolest,

no, it's good that you mentioned that. The coolest thing that I've recognized over the years when I do that, because that happens to me at least once a day. And if I'm in a conversation with my daughter, you know, like a dad on my daughter's coach, whatever, you know, and all this. yeah, like the self it I found it to be self deprecating, which I'm okay with. and it brings people in.

Frank Spinelli (34:48)

Exactly.

Eric Fischer (34:48)

Like I

I've noticed that, Frank. I've noticed that like people instead of saying, Hi, how was your day? You know, all this cliche kind of thing, it's like, well, my brown brain just froze on me for five seconds. If that was awkward, I have about ten different things I wanted to say.

Frank Spinelli (35:02)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (35:03)

And it I felt I feel like it humanizes me in a way, brings people in. And I've I've learned that we have good conversations, you know. and it does. And it does. It it it helps me too.

Frank Spinelli (35:10)

Yeah, yeah. I know it it's hor

it's it did that too, and it and you know what was really great and I don't know if you realized it, you stepping out of it allows your brain to know two things. One, he realized we're glitching here, we're good. And then two, you are gonna recalibrate on your own and your brain's like, Okay, let's give him a second, he's gonna answer because guess what?

Because you've taught yourself this, that when I'm glitching, I'm just gonna make a little self-deprecating joke about it, and then I'm gonna answer. You did the pause, be present, ponder, and you had your possibilities. If you hadn't, guess what would have would have spoken for you? Shame. Shame would have jumped

in and

Eric Fischer (35:54)

Mm.

Frank Spinelli (35:54)

said, you are an idiot, you're blowing it.

You see, so you parented yourself, whether you did the peas or not, whatever you did, you did for yourself to avoid your brain defaulting to shame so that you don't hear, you're an idiot. You did it. We caught it live, everybody.

Eric Fischer (36:10)

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. We caught it live. There it is. Yeah. And and and and and and and

what I was gonna say is on the learning piece. I mean, I learned, for example, to to pull that little piece out right there for you know, working on myself. And I too have found that

When people understand what about their brain and their body and whether it be nutrition or shame or alcohol, the neuroscience behind that and how it affects the organs and so on and so forth, people really do learn and grow. I mean,

Frank Spinelli (36:43)

I do.

Eric Fischer (36:43)

you know, it's it's really amazing, you know, because we can have there's a there's a lot of tools. You can walk, meditate, stretch, deep breathing, put ice cubes in your hand, bring you back to center,

Frank Spinelli (36:52)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (36:53)

you know, there's a lot of these things, but

But we also have our life over here. That is that is not easy. You know, it's not easy to figure this out over here. But what these when these tools align, when it going back to that alignment piece, then these tools really, really, really start to work. And, you know, one way to have

Happy in your life and joy in your life and meaning and purpose on your life is to learn, right? Because we have that order and that chaos, one foot in each quarter or chaos holds our untapped potential and that stretches us, right? Where we are maximally engaged. that's learning and it's meaning and it's understanding, and we gain awareness, and then we can take action with intention to to help ourselves, you know, move, move, move forward and upward.

Frank Spinelli (37:35)

I think intentional

living has to be part of everything when you're in recovery, whether it's recovery from alcohol, drugs, sex, trauma, you have to live a t an intentional life. many people, and we're going back to what something I said earlier, are just struggling. They don't see a way out. They're in the shame spiral. And it's very hard. And what I was trying to add, what you just said, is you can

Teach all the tools in the world. They're only as good as you using them. So if you don't use them, then they're of no worth.

And I think a lot of people find that hard to understand. Just because you show up at a meeting doesn't make it the work. It takes active listening. It takes speaking, maybe. You know, there's work involved. And I think we throw that around a lot. I don't know about you, but you know, you gotta do the

Eric Fischer (38:25)

Mm-hmm.

Frank Spinelli (38:26)

work. You gotta do the work. You almost want to smack people when you hear it.

Are you like, I'm doing the work. What else I gotta do? You know, it

Eric Fischer (38:29)

Yeah, yeah.

Frank Spinelli (38:33)

is an effort, and it's unfortunate for so many of us who have suffered some trauma in our

lives and most of us have experienced some trauma. We all certainly went through the COVID pandemic. And to survive it is one thing. It's flourishing afterwards, which is very important. And that's what we want

Eric Fischer (38:52)

Mm-hmm.

Frank Spinelli (38:52)

to do with our clients and for our families and friends is to instill in them the hope that they can flourish in you know in the aftermath of whatever trauma they may have experienced.

Eric Fischer (39:03)

Yeah, because at the end of the day we get to choose. We get to choose.

Frank Spinelli (39:06)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (39:07)

You know, at at the at the very end of the day, you get to choose how you live and and you get to build and create how it is that you

Want to walk through this this this earth while we're on it. You know, and and and

Frank Spinelli (39:17)

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (39:19)

you know, on a serious note, unfortunately, I don't feel like nobody teaches this, you know? It's like we grow

up and teachers don't know, professors, parents, friends, coaches. I mean, we're just blind to we're just we're

Frank Spinelli (39:29)

Well, I don't I don't know about you, but

Eric Fischer (39:34)

just unconscious people walking around the world because nobody until something breaks, nothing's wrong.

Frank Spinelli (39:39)

Well, I I was gonna say I don't know about you, but I grew up on Staten Island in New York with Italian immigrant parents. I mean, my parents are from Italy, strict Catholic. I went to a Catholic school run by nuns.

Eric Fischer (39:53)

Ha ha ha.

Frank Spinelli (39:53)

most of the teaching was shame based. You were shamed.

You were brought up to the front, you were made an example of. So not only do we not teach this, we actually instill shame in people. And one of the things that I have learned in all these years is that no one, no one's life has improved because they were shamed. It is not one of those behaviors where you teach people by shaming them. It doesn't work.

maybe guilt a little bit and certainly my mother is an expert at it, but for as far as shame, no one's life will improve because they were shamed. It just doesn't work that way. And we're not taught about it. You're right.

Eric Fischer (40:34)

Yeah, and yeah, and then we

and then we don't speak up and we don't say what it is that we want to say, and then there's shame about not speaking up.

Frank Spinelli (40:44)

Well, the you know, when you go back to that, so if you're a young kid in St. Sylvester's on Staten Island and Sister Catherine is making an example of you, what is she teaching you by bringing you up to the class to mock you or insult you so that everybody else can snicker? She's teaching you to be small. She's teaching you to shrink because she wants you to fall in line. This is the way a lot of cults get started or common trains of thought. How do you control people?

People,

shame them, shrink them down, don't let them have an identity, don't let them have an opinion, certainly. and I think that's where a lot of fear-based practices come from. People live in fear, especially when it comes to religion or politics or even family dynamics. You know, when we think about the most common shames, men and women, and we can play like a little game. So and I may have asked you this once, but like the what do you think are the number one and number two?

Reasons women experience in shame. Number one, take a guess.

Eric Fischer (41:46)

Experience shame.

Frank Spinelli (41:48)

There's something

they're shameful about most commonly.

Eric Fischer (41:51)

their f appearance.

Frank Spinelli (41:52)

Their appearance. Women feel most shameful about their bodies. So whether they're too thin or too heavy or too old, a lot of women feel feel sort of abandoned by their bodies because they're aging and they no longer are attracting men that they used to. Second thing, motherhood.

Women who feel they're not enough. They're a single mom. They're a working mom. They're a stay-at-home mom. And conversely, another big swath of that group is women who can't conceive. So fertility shame. They feel a tremendous guilt about it. Number one in men, let's see if you could if you could guess.

Eric Fischer (42:31)

Well, we're driven

by external glory.

i I feel like s it's something about sex. Is it?

Frank Spinelli (42:38)

Yes, yes, you're I was I was sending I was sending it to you across the so men, but this is fascinating. So

men either feel they're unable to provide pleasure enough, like they feel shame about it, or two about the equipment that they have. And then what I found astonishing was that men feel shame about

roles within sex, maybe wanting to be submissive, maybe wanting to be, I don't know, fantasies that they can't voice because that would mean something because of identity. Conversely, women.

Feel a tremendous amount of shame sexually when it comes to the number of past partners. They won't talk about it because they feel they'll be shut slam. I mean shut shame, slut shaming. Slut I just did the I I distorted those two words. Slut shaming. They don't want to talk about how

Eric Fischer (43:28)

Yes, it's slice. Yeah. Hmm.

Frank Spinelli (43:35)

many partners because their man might get upset with them. So it's really interesting when you look at the hierarchy side by side, women very in tune with their bodies, the way their motherhood,

Certainly the roles that they feel about sex and men being the household, the predominant, the alpha male, secondly, their their sexual proclivity, but also you know, all of this, all of this comes down to roles that have been instilled on them by either a church or a community or a family. So it's really interesting when we talk about

This overall, it's not exclusively about you being traumatized as a child, it's about ways we integrate shame in our lives, whether it's a bad breakup, a divorce. Do you know one of the other that links up to the men's column is getting fired?

What that does to people's confidence, particularly, you know, for men who are supporting families or, you know, trying to establish themselves in a community, getting fired or laid off is a tremendous amount of shame, and is probably one of the number one reasons they repres they resort to addictions.

Eric Fischer (44:48)

Hmm. Yeah, that's that's fascinating. You know, on on the on the men's side, post World War Two, we moved into a personality ethic rather than a character ethic. And I was certainly living through a personality ethic, which is the the

Frank Spinelli (45:01)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (45:02)

that that that public facing self, you know. Well look at, you know, I'm the provider, I make all the money.

You know, this, that, and the other thing. Because but underneath that it's all it's all show. Because under underneath that is what if this goes away? Who who now who am I? Right. Yeah. And there's yeah, yeah, and we and

Frank Spinelli (45:19)

Yeah. Who am I without it? Yeah, exactly.

Eric Fischer (45:23)

and then when that goes away, I mean there's already I can feel like that part of me that I've that I've kind of that I I still have the old Eric in me, but

more and more and more of him is feeling further and further away. but I do vividly palpably can remember feeling very like you to your point, very small. I also went to an I went to an all boys Catholic high school as well. I mean I mean the nuns, the nuns, the brothers, all that, I mean, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Frank Spinelli (45:45)

I did too, yeah. we had the brothers, yeah. I went to a Jesuit high school with all the brothers. Yeah.

Eric Fischer (45:53)

And that, you know, that that I mean, I did they

I I I did f and still do find value in that in that edge type of education, but it's limited compared to what I was kind of running away from on graduation. There's structure, firm handshakes. Yeah, you do.

Frank Spinelli (46:07)

Well there was structure there was structure and and and you learn, yeah. And you learn

stuff. I mean it and it was probably a good education. So

Eric Fischer (46:16)

It no, it was. It

w it was top notch in sports, but the shaming piece, you know, like the standing up in front of the room and the and the getting

Frank Spinelli (46:23)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (46:24)

my shoelaces tied together, putting getting tape put over my mouth in second grade for being too chatty, like all this. I mean, it's but it yeah, yeah. But it stays with

Frank Spinelli (46:32)

You?

Eric Fischer (46:35)

you, you know, it stays with you. Point is, I guess, is we all have something and it takes tremendous amounts of courage to look at it.

And Brene Brown says, with there is no such thing as courage without being vulnerable, in tune with your vulnerabilities first. And which is an interesting play on those two words, but we all have something, we all have a history that that that it's worth sifting through as challenging as it is, because what happens is you stop being the cow and you turn into the buffalo.

Ha.

Frank Spinelli (47:08)

Yeah. I well, I'm sorry you had to go through that. You made me think of a couple more examples of myself in front of the class, and I thought this shame-based punishment was instilled, it was indoctrinated upon us. I mean, we live, I lived in mortal fear of it. I was afraid of my life that did not want to be identified. And you would think that.

Had they just been more evolved after you got your shoelaces tied together, had

Eric Fischer (47:36)

No.

Frank Spinelli (47:36)

that same brother just said to you, I'm really sorry I had to make an example of you. Try not to do it anymore. You're a good kid. You know how that would have changed the trajectory of your life by that

Eric Fischer (47:46)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Frank Spinelli (47:48)

simple compassion. We don't have that. We don't teach it. We teach be tough, be rough, be strict. Especially at a at a Jesuit high school.

Eric Fischer (47:55)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it's generational too, you know, like you can you can track you can

Frank Spinelli (48:01)

Yeah, absolutely.

Eric Fischer (48:02)

track it back. World War One, World War II, and then

Frank Spinelli (48:05)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (48:05)

you have this boom. So there's new money running around all over the, you know, at least in the West, US sp specifically. Then you have Vietnam.

And now you have today, right? And so we grew up, I'm 46 years old. I grew up underneath the thumb of discipline and and like almost almost like the shaming and the punishment. We were we were we were told how to act through through the lens of some punishment and shame, right? And so now you can you can cycle that up to today's parents, like my my generation, I've had a 10 and thirty and thirteen, man, 14 almost, 14 and 10.

and now our generation is is struggling with that right there because we don't want to be treat we don't want to treat our kids the way our parents treated us. And so

Frank Spinelli (48:49)

Yeah, no, of course not. No.

Eric Fischer (48:52)

now the now the big struggle is the balance between being your kid's friend and still being a parent, you know, and and

Frank Spinelli (48:59)

Yeah.

Eric Fischer (48:59)

and kind of like there's a difference between being a dad and being a father. And so, so it's always a juggle, it's always a struggle. And

Frank Spinelli (49:08)

Yeah, and you I it's it's the way to keep people aligned.

Eric Fischer (49:08)

Shame. Shame is at the center of it. I mean, in a lot of different ways. And we don't talk about it enough.

Yeah.

Frank Spinelli (49:14)

No,

and I I'm glad we're having this conversation. I mean, you you and I, I had the same. I'm very regimented father. My father used to take off his belt at the dinner table and he would stra you know, hit you on the legs. Yeah. And one time, well, not one time, maybe a few times, my father would go to a parent-teacher meeting and bring the belt and say to the teacher, if you need to use this, I'll leave it.

Eric Fischer (49:39)

Yeah. Yeah, really. yeah.

Frank Spinelli (49:40)

You know, what's the

what's the message there?

Eric Fischer (49:43)

Yeah,

shut up and don't say anything and just do what you're told. Stay in line. Stay

Frank Spinelli (49:47)

Stay in line. Yeah, stay in line.

Eric Fischer (49:49)

in line. You know, it's really the good thing is that we can change it. Takes time. It's hard work. it's so worth it. It's so worth it.

Frank Spinelli (49:55)

Yeah. But it's worth it. It's worth it in the end. You know, if you

if you had said to me, I don't even know where where I was in twenty twenty and realized where I was and where how dark it was for me and how I didn't see a way out. And I thought to myself

this is the way my life is going to end, is gonna be like just me struggling through this, waiting, waiting for Blursday to drink because we were drinking all the time. I mean, I don't I don't know where you are in your journey, but that certainly people I knew were drinking all the time, millions of people. I mean, we had liquor stores open because they were considered essential.

Eric Fischer (50:37)

Isn't that something?

Frank Spinelli (50:36)

So the access,

I mean the access to alcohol for everyone. So I don't want anybody to think, you know, it was a pandemic, you know, alcohol use disorder. it has again, if I say it once, I say it every time. It had nothing to do with alcohol.

It was the idea that I could thought I had defeated shame and I had beat it. And then all of a sudden that trapdoor opened with a pandemic and it could happen again with something else. But this time I'll be prepared.

Eric Fischer (51:09)

You've done the work now. It's

Frank Spinelli (51:10)

Yeah yeah, now I've done it. Finally.

Eric Fischer (51:13)

yeah, it's a it's I mean what it what a what an accomplishment to not only not only go through the arduous process of writing one book, but you've had

Frank Spinelli (51:25)

Ha ha ha.

Eric Fischer (51:26)

you have five. What are you most proud of about this one?

Frank Spinelli (51:29)

I think this one, the shame compass, is just a culmination of everything that I have been working towards. So when I was molested and I, you know, the circumstances, you know, ended and he was he stepped down and I went to college and I was doing miserably, terribly.

And I lost my scholarship. And I was 20, I don't even remember. And I got a therapist. I had no idea. I just found this woman. And she was an art therapist. I had no idea. And I used to paint. And the other thing I would do is I would write and I would write stories. And in those exercises, that's why with trauma, I'm a big proponent of

movement,

And I wrote for her. And that was what I love more than anything. And so the first two books were were the first one was a health book, the second one was a memoir, but the ones after that were fiction.

Eric Fischer (52:30)

what would be the first step for somebody to become aware of some of what they might call shame?

Frank Spinelli (52:37)

Yeah.

I that's a great question. I think if you are struggling with anything, alcohol or drugs, or just with your identity, I urge you to understand you are not alone. Certainly. I urge you to connect with community if you can find one locally or if it's something that may benefit from reframe, but whatever it is. And I think the most important thing for anybody who has suffered any sort of trauma is to understand that you did nothing wrong. That whatever happened to you has

It's unfortunate and it's devastating. But at the same time, taking ownership of it is not what you should be doing. You should be understanding that although something happened to me, it does not define me.

Thank you, that is really nice. Well, it was a pleasure talking with you, but thank you.

Eric Fischer (53:25)

Yeah. And so to conclude here, thank you all for listening to another episode of the Reframable Podcast brought to you by the Reframable app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. If you are enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you may feel may

benefit from it. I want to thank you again for listening and be sure to come back again for another episode. Have a great day.