EnneagramU

Is the Enneagram Evil? : A Journey into Controversy and Transformation

• Faith and Community • Season 1 • Episode 4

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Imagine uncovering the hidden patterns of your false self and transforming into your authentic self - that's the promise of the Enneagram. Now, what if we told you there's a heated debate swirling around this ancient tool, with some praising its transformative power and others labeling it as evil? Intrigued? You will be, as we, Damon and Kelly, navigate through the turbulent waters of the Enneagram controversy in a fun, light-hearted manner. We'll discuss the Enneagram from both faith-based and secular perspectives.  And yes, we've got clips from both sides of the argument, so be ready for some lively conversation.

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Speaker 1:

Now, the officials are ready, the fighters are in the ring and they are ready. So for the thousands in attendance and the millions watching around the world, ladies and gentlemen, let's get ready to rumble.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to Enneagram U, damon and Kelly, where we explore the mysteries of human personality and help you learn more about you. Whether you're a skeptic or an enthusiast, together we'll take you on a journey of self-discovery using the ancient wisdom of the Enneagram. This is Enneagram U. Hey everybody, and welcome to Enneagram U. I'm Damon and I'm here with my friend Kelly. Hi Kelly. Hey Damon, i'm here to start every show with a simple question How are you feeling today?

Speaker 3:

Yes, I am feeling surprised.

Speaker 2:

Oh, okay.

Speaker 3:

So a few days ago I have quit caffeine and I thought that I would die.

Speaker 2:

Do I need to leave?

Speaker 3:

I thought I would be dragging my body into the studio today But surprisingly I did wean myself So a little bit off each day last week to wear Saturday no caffeine. Literally thought there's probably going to be an explosion in my heart, But I'm doing great and I'm surprised. I'm feeling shocked about that Did you get a headache?

Speaker 2:

No, why? I mean, everybody gets a headache.

Speaker 4:

I think it was just the process of weaning.

Speaker 2:

Oh wow, so you just went slow, slow, but I'm surprised.

Speaker 3:

You're wisdom.

Speaker 2:

That's a good word Surprised, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:

How are you feeling, Damon?

Speaker 2:

I'm feeling nervous. I'm feeling nervous about today's topic. Okay, so it's fun, but yet I'm nervous about it because we're doing the evils of the Enneagram.

Speaker 3:

Yes Wow.

Speaker 2:

You know, it's a very evil, it's a very evil thing, and so we're going to hear a couple of different takes and yeah, and because I think it's controversial- Yes. What I'm finding is that it's controversial in some circles, especially in the faith world.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the Enneagram is taught as a. You know, we look at the Enneagram as a tool that's very helpful, and helpful to getting to know who we are, and I haven't thought of it much more than that. And I recently stumbled on some information that said well, some of the faith, some of the churches, faith-based, maybe organizations are kind of like, hmm, maybe we got a pause on this whole Enneagram thing And I'm like what? Okay, why? And so we dug into that a little bit. Yeah, have you heard of that a little bit.

Speaker 3:

Yeah Well, i think you know anything can be taken to the extreme Right And so I think you know recognizing how are we using the Enneagram? You know some people can make the Enneagram more of an idol, where they're kind of looking at that versus looking at God. You know, i think for us being able to look at it as a tool that God uses for our spiritual transformation. And yet I think people do have fear if they don't know a lot about it or they can make anything evil. So yeah, heard some extremes through the years. I've had to defend it, you know, in some circles. So Okay, that's cool.

Speaker 2:

I found a clip and we're going to play it, And so let's just as we set this up there. They're kind of there's probably a million different camps on this, just like there are for every other topic in the world. So we're going to make this as fun as possible and keep it as light as possible, But we also want to you know, we want to dive into the evils of the Enneagram. What, What, What, What. I wish you had sound effects. We do, actually, but I just never. I never use them. Let's see if I can find a sound effect. That's why we don't use them. I would use this one instead. We are going to take the evils of the.

Speaker 3:

Enneagram Yes, holy schnike.

Speaker 2:

Yep, okay, i'm going to pull something up right here and let's just take a listen.

Speaker 5:

Enneagram is a cultural phenomenon that markets itself, is an enigmatic personality test that has recently taken churches and Christian circles by storm.

Speaker 4:

This thing called the Enneagram, really, really share all of the human spectrum, of the beauty that God's designed in us, and the brokenness that sin has caused in us.

Speaker 5:

Many of you probably know your own Enneagram number, and you could even tell someone what number they are just by observing their personality and hearing their hopes and fears. At first glance, this system seems like just another personality test, like Myers-Briggs or the disc profile, but, as you will see, this couldn't be further from the truth. The reality is is that the Enneagram appears harmless, but is actually anything but More than just a fun way to learn about your personality and the personalities of those around you. The Enneagram has a cult origins and even demonic influence.

Speaker 2:

And we do not have sound effects like that.

Speaker 3:

Those sound effects. Wow, it's like watching a scary movie.

Speaker 2:

I was, i was, i had chills, i know. So that's, that's one side. Yeah, let's hear the other side.

Speaker 4:

Yes, please, i've got another one, and let me tell you what the Enneagram is. The Enneagram is a tool that can help me, that can help me identify me. It's just a tool, that's all it is. Somebody said well, i think it's, i think it's false prophet. Well, there's a false prophet in the Bible named Balaam, and God uses him to bring about his will. And some people say, oh, my gosh, i think I think it's witchcraft. Well, god uses a witch to slap us all all around in the Bible.

Speaker 4:

Some of you guys, well, i don't know, i I I read online. I think it's astrology. Isn't it interesting that the astrologers found Jesus and the Bible scholars in Jerusalem missed him? Well, i don't know, pastor, i just don't think we should ever use something non biblical to lead people to Jesus. It isn't interesting. When John is writing the gospel to tell you about who Jesus is, he uses a cultic pagan term logos. You see, what John knew is pagan. Greeks don't have any idea who a Jewish God is, and so he uses their occultic understanding of the creator, logos. And he says in the beginning of his gospel in the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with God and the logos was God. Who's the logos? His name is Jesus.

Speaker 2:

I cut him off there at the end, but he was basically, you know, just continuing his argument. So we're preaching to us, yeah, yeah. So where do we go from here with the Enneagram When it comes to faith, and I'm a person of faith. I believe in Jesus. You do as well, Yes, And so here we are talking about the Enneagram, and one side of the aisle has some negative things to say about it. Look out. And the other side is like why are you freaking out? It's just a tool.

Speaker 3:

So Well, i have to say, when I first was introduced to the Enneagram, just not knowing anything about it, but seeing the symbol, it does look a bit concerning.

Speaker 2:

You know it's, it's kind of an offset pentagram, right? Yes, it's got.

Speaker 3:

The arrows and the lines, the more you learn about it, you realize oh, those are why the numbers are connected to each other, right? But I think what really captivated me as a follower of Jesus is that it is a tool that I have seen personally in my life that God has used just to identify more of my false self patterns, or my sin patterns, or my unhealthy patterns, and also the ways that God's designed me as a reflection of him in the world. So I, like this last pastor that said it's a tool, it is a tool.

Speaker 2:

So the Enneagram does point out a strength and a weakness in everybody, for because we haven't talked about every number yet, or any number yet, we've been kind of dwelling on the setup of personality We're setting up the foundation. Yes, and we've got all that going, but I'll use myself, for example, if I'm a nine, which I'm still not certain, if that's true. But let me just everyone calm down. Everyone calm down, are we all okay?

Speaker 3:

Yes, we're all okay.

Speaker 2:

So I'm a nine. The positive side of the nine is something to do with peace.

Speaker 3:

Yes, you're a person of peace. I am okay.

Speaker 2:

You're a harmonizer unifier, i guess, so Dang it Okay. And then the bad side of the nine is I'm lazy.

Speaker 3:

No, oh Sloth.

Speaker 2:

Sloth is something I can be slothful.

Speaker 3:

Yes, now for nines. they're not lazy, it's just inertia, right? So if they don't have something, they get them going. They have a hard time getting started, but once they get going they get a lot done, okay.

Speaker 2:

So in the first, when we had heard the first argument there with the clip, i think if you listen to more information about that side of what they're arguing about, you find that there's two things really that scare them or that they get stuck on. And that would be number one that you get put in a box of swords that you can't change. And if you can't change that kind of runs counter, that runs very counter to the. Christian faith, which is all about transformation.

Speaker 3:

Right.

Speaker 2:

And that if I'm born a certain way, then that can become an excuse. So I'm a sloth. God designed me as a sloth, So I don't have to change away from my slothfulness. if that's a sin And so, then that just takes away the grace of God. I mean completely. if you go that far, it completely derails everything about Christianity.

Speaker 3:

It's in conflict with that Right, and I would say, so much of misunderstanding is where it is a focus on that sin pattern and saying, oh, it's okay to be a person of sloth because this is who God's created you. I think what we can use through the Enneagram is to say that, no Damon, you were created by God to be a person of peace, and what might keep you from being that person of peace is sloth. And so let's go ahead and identify that blind spot or something that you may not even see because it's been such a part of you. Let's go ahead and name that, just so you can have awareness of it. So it really is a tool for self-knowledge, which actually is a spiritual discipline, the spiritual discipline of self-knowledge, knowing more about self, not just to know about self, to know about self, but to know that the more that we know about self, the more we know God.

Speaker 2:

And that's true for every number, not just sloths.

Speaker 3:

Not just sloths. And isn't it interesting that, like the unhealthy side of all, the numbers or the besetting sin pattern are based on the seven deadly sins plus two.

Speaker 2:

Hey everyone, before we continue our discussion, I would love to invite you to episode five, where we will discuss Enneagram Triads. Let's learn together about the numbers that go together.

Speaker 3:

See you then Tell me what you do tell me what you do. So there, i mean, i know that there's questions about the origins. I know we can take anything and twist it to be evil, or we can twist it to say, oh, god created the Enneagram. Well, no, god gives us tools that we can use. But I think it's interesting too. even as we read some of Paul's epistles, he talks about taking off the old self and putting on the new self, and so I haven't found a tool that's been more helpful. Again, there's no magic in the tool, it's just a tool. It's like a hammer. But we can use that tool to be able to identify what are those false self patterns or those old man patterns. Take off that. take off sloth Damon. Let it go, brother.

Speaker 2:

I'm doing jumping jacks right now.

Speaker 3:

And put on peace. Yes, put on that true self.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and if you can't, if you just say to somebody, well, you're a sinner, we all would agree that well, i wouldn't say we all agree, depending on who's listening. But as people of faith we all agree they're sinning our lives. But this does give us one of those ways we can name what sin that is so that we can deal with it, Otherwise you can say we've all sinned, see you later.

Speaker 2:

And this is just helpful, I think a helpful tool And that's how I look at it, and I definitely don't worship it, and the Enneagram is definitely not our God by any means. But that's the first reason that I think that is that, like you can't change. So the truth is, with Enneagram, it's all about change.

Speaker 3:

That's right. It's all about transformation, moving from unhealthy to being more healthy. knowing that's a journey, we're gonna find ourselves falling in the unhealthy patterns. What are the ways or the paths to move to healthy?

Speaker 2:

Mm-hmm, yeah. And then the second thing that they Point out is just the origins, like you mentioned earlier, like where does this come from? and you know There's a whole history. You can you all are smart, smart listeners You can get on the internet and you can look it up and you can see where these things come from.

Speaker 2:

And we would bore you with All of that information because we can go from this guy to this guy than this guy, but the modern enneagram kind of probably came around more like in 1960s, then again in the 2000s and and then there just have been a lot of writings on it because people like it. But I Mean what doesn't? there's a lot of things in faith That have bad beginnings. Yeah, i mean, and and the second clip that we played, he kind of pointed that out- that there are things that I don't know.

Speaker 2:

It's like why? why Do we do Christmas the way we do it? I think we borrowed a few things that may not all be just Christian based.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and you could look that up on the internet too, because everything is real that's on the internet and true Yeah and this also reminds me of and again, as I'm processing out loud here with the audience You'll just have to all give me grace because you know where I am which is uneducated on all of this, but it reminds me of the of the talk around music in the 1970s and the church, or the 1980s in the church, and where, whether or not we should move away from certain instruments like a pipe organ or piano and move to a drum set, because drums were evil and drum beats are evil and they come from black magic and voodoo and Things like that, and I'll bet everybody has a drum set in their church today and enjoys that tool.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, in their worship. Yeah, so it, and maybe I'm missing it, but that's kind of where I land on this.

Speaker 3:

Oh, i agree, Damon. I think there's so many things that we, sadly, have put Fear over, and it's limited, then, how God wants to use things in our life. I think about something like yoga. Also back in the day. It's like, oh, do not do yoga, it opens your mind up to evils. And it's like, how are we limiting God and so many of the different things? because we're so afraid.

Speaker 2:

Right and we tend to. We tend to like operate on fear and and you would not be as flexible today, everyone, if you didn't have yoga. You don't have to meditate during yoga. I mean, sometimes you they are you meditate on? God right, like, how are we using yoga? Yeah, it, but it's funny how, in the church and I've been around the church a while and it's funny how we Like to pick fights and sometimes I wonder, like, are we picking the right fight?

Speaker 2:

I mean, we have people living under a bridge just down the road not too far right, or we have, you know, homeless problems or whatever is happening in our country right now. And I'm not saying I'm the biggest hypocrite of all, but I'm just saying it's just interesting to observe what fights I pick.

Speaker 3:

Yeah and you know what's really important in life and I think that Message that says all truth is God's truth. So whatever God deems that he wants to use in our lives, let's not block how he wants to use that in our lives. You know, being able to use this again is a tool that God is inviting us into. I believe in my own personal journey, absolutely Yes. Others may have a hard time with that, but that's something between them and God, that's right.

Speaker 2:

I mean, there's so few of us you're. You're much further along, kelly. No, i'm just teasing you. Yeah, you're right, and and we come along at our own pace and. I think, everything you know You have to with with measure you measure everything here. I mean, we've talked about several things. We talked about the jihari window. What was the one we talked about two episodes ago? We talked about dysfunctional family, dysfunctional families and personality and all of these things?

Speaker 2:

would we put all of these things like outside of God's Ability to use or be involved in?

Speaker 3:

well, even psychology. I mean back in the day when I was getting my master's degree in psychology. I know at the time it was considered a very humanistic science and yet so many of the roots of even Practices of processing your emotions we can see throughout God's word. So again, we don't want to throw the baby and the bathtub out, right. We just wanna be able to see how God wants to use different things in our lives to help us to grow, to transform, to change more into his likeness, to live more of a life-giving, true self-life.

Speaker 1:

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:

Well, there's many groups in faith-based organizations today that are physical fitness type groups as well, yeah. There's that and I don't. I don't remember the. I do remember the disciples doing some fishing. I don't remember yoga. I don't remember running.

Speaker 3:

Right.

Speaker 2:

I don't remember weightlifting per se besides regular work, and I'm, you know, i'm going off the deep end here a little bit, But but I mean, it's just like we can't put God in a box, but obviously scripture for the Christian is where they go. Where I go initially, for for truth and then balancing everything against that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah Well, and you know, at times I've had conversations with people I'll say recolossians three. you know, just let that be a scripture that you look at, because so many of the things that Paul names there is all of the false self-patterns that the Enneagram names, like the besetting struggles, you know take off greed, malice, anger, you know, and put on again those things that are life-giving, of those qualities that God wants to reflect through us.

Speaker 2:

That's really good, Kelly. That's a really good point And I think you already mentioned to Paul saying I think it's second Corinthians, you're a new creation the old's gone.

Speaker 2:

The new has come, you know. So there's transformation to be had. My favorite, one of my favorite verses Glacians 220,. I've been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me and the life I live in the body. I live by faith in the Son of God. So that's really where the Christian's identity comes from. That's right, right there. And then things like the Enneagram help with knowing and naming things that are wrong in our lives, that then God can take a hold of and help us transform, and then also, if we're not very flexible, we could do yoga.

Speaker 3:

I mean, that's always a great idea.

Speaker 2:

Wow.

Speaker 3:

But, yes, our identity is in Christ. You know, aj Sherrill has written a book, i think it's called the Spiritual Formation in the Enneagram, but he has this illustration that I find so helpful. He said the roots of every one of us is the identity in Christ, and then we imagine the trunk growing out of that identity and that's our personality. You know, that's where God's given us each a unique personality, and then the limbs and the fruit that grows from that is how healthy is our personality? but our identity is rooted in Christ.

Speaker 2:

That's a really good word picture.

Speaker 3:

And so we would encourage everybody listening.

Speaker 2:

I think you would encourage them to not use the Enneagram as an excuse for staying still, because that is not the intention of it.

Speaker 3:

No, it's a tool to help us to grow, for transformation, and so none of us want to be on that side of the unhealthy side of the Enneagram. We want to be aware and we want to move towards growth in that healthy space.

Speaker 2:

I think we can find the good things in the Enneagram for sure in the faith world And we don't really want to be afraid of things either. And I think it's good to have these conversations. As you can tell, i don't have all the answers, but it's good to have the conversations about it, because we do want to protect the church and faith and our relationship with Christ. We want to have all those things be important and stay important and stay first.

Speaker 2:

So, wow, do you have anything else on this topic, because this has been a pretty evil conversation.

Speaker 3:

I think Jesus, and also Paul in the New Testament, talks about this ongoing maturity, and so I think the Enneagram can be a tool to use that in our ongoing process of maturity. And again I've heard it said it's like money Money's not good or bad, it's just how we use it. I think the Enneagram it's not good or bad, it's just how we use it.

Speaker 2:

Right, that's funny. I remember an illustration when I was in college that a friend of mine we'd sit around talking about just everything in the world and everyone does that in college And I was a new, what we would call, or I would call a new believer, a new follower of Jesus. I didn't know much about it And we were talking about good and evil and what is good, what is evil, and at that time we were talking about music, but it was complicated. So we started talking about a chair and how a chair is just a chair Unless you pick it up and crack it over somebody's head, and now it's a weapon.

Speaker 3:

Right.

Speaker 2:

Well, this has been some deep stuff and way over my head and I'm glad we survived it.

Speaker 3:

But thank you Without caffeine and also.

Speaker 2:

Oh, my, that's right. Yes, so I was nervous and you were. What was your surprise? Your surprise, and right now you might be listening and you might be really surprised and very nervous that we're gonna continue this podcast, but we are, and so we'll be back next week. So thank you for joining us on Enneagram U and we will see you next time. Bye, kelly, bye, bye. What you do, tell me what you do With our love in your heart, with our love by your side, with our love by your side.