The GovNavigators Show

Too Few Data Chiefs? Inside the Data Foundation and Deloitte's CDO Survey

• Season 4 • Episode 155

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This week on the GovNavigators Show, hosts Adam and Robert sit down with Dr. Amanda Cash of the Data Foundation and Dr. Adita Karkera of Deloitte to unpack the latest Federal Chief Data Officer (CDO) Survey and what it reveals about the state of data, AI, and capacity across government.

Drawing on six years of survey data, Amanda and Adita explain how the federal CDO role has evolved since the Foundations for Evidence-Based Policymaking Act and why today’s environment may be the most challenging yet. With more than half of CDOs operating with five or fewer staff, agencies are being pushed to do more with less, even as expectations around AI, data governance, and transparency continue to rise.

The conversation explores the growing overlap between Chief Data Officers and Chief AI Officers, the risks and opportunities of combining those roles, and how agencies can use AI to compensate for workforce gaps. They also highlight the critical role of the federal CDO Council in enabling collaboration and scaling best practices across government.

Show Notes:

What's on the GovNavigators' Radar:

SPEAKER_03

Welcome everyone to the Gov Navigator Show, a government-focused program that won't make you seasick. We're the Gov Navigators. I'm Robert Che. And I'm Adam Hughes. We hope to enlighten and enliven your week with news and insightful, entertaining guests, all on the topic of government management.

SPEAKER_02

Enjoy today's episode of Gov Navigators, brought to you by the creative geniuses behind the award-winning podcast Fedheads. Adam, it's been a busy week.

SPEAKER_03

For lots of people, not just us. Here's something. You know, you can make a lot of money betting on things that I don't know. Just so you're just sort of being clear. Did you put something in the Calchi futures market about betting on whether I know something? Because apparently you can get arrested for that now. I've been banned.

SPEAKER_02

I've been banned because I've already myself what don't I know?

SPEAKER_03

Tell me.

SPEAKER_02

The House Appropriations Subcommittee on Agriculture passed its appropriations. Huh. For 27. And the full committee passed Financial Services and MILCON VA.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. This is well done. Right? They're doing it at the time that is appropriate for them to do it.

SPEAKER_02

And then the National Security State Subcommittee also passed its bill. Okay. The full committee has yet to take action. I did not know any of this. You are correct. So you would have won. It happens the week the Pentagon actually finally submitted its detailed request for 1.5 trillion.$3 trillion. Very detailed request. While the House was working on all its stuff, the Senate was busy too passing what I know you love, which is a budget resolution.

SPEAKER_03

My favorite process in all of government, the budget reconciliation process.

SPEAKER_02

Our poor friends on the staff over there had to stay up late on Thursday.

SPEAKER_03

I think 3 39, I heard, was the reported time when they finished. Yeah, that's and that's typically later than they go. I feel like they usually around 2 a.m. People are like, okay, that's enough. And those are you know, the senators themselves. Those are old people who like to get the best. We're not being fresh. We're just stating facts here.

SPEAKER_02

The average stage in the Senate is very old. But the Senate resolution has reconciliation instructions intended to fund CBP and ICE for three years. For three years.

SPEAKER_03

$70 billion. We'll see if that gets done. It's a lot of money. Yeah, now over to the House. And they are, I don't want to say scrambling, but any vote in the House these days, I feel like is a bit of a scramble. And I think this will be a really tricky one for Speaker Johnson to pull off. We'll see how he does.

SPEAKER_02

I will not make an obituary joke in light of Congressman Scott's passing. God rest his soul.

SPEAKER_03

God rest his soul. But also a lot of reporting in the news about maybe he didn't need to run again because he was 80. So I think trying to get some young blood into Congress would not be the worst thing in the world.

SPEAKER_02

Where's Congressman King? By the way. Yeah. I'd like to say this is the first time a member of Congress has gone missing, but that's not the case. Yeah. The fact that the staff doesn't really know what's going on is not great.

SPEAKER_03

Not great. Hopefully, I'm hoping everything is okay.

SPEAKER_02

Speaking of hiding, the House is House Oversight Committee's going to take up a bevy of fraud bills next week.

SPEAKER_03

Yep. Yes. And we talked about this last week because there was supposed to be a markup and it wasn't noticed, and we didn't we're in frequent touch with them, but we didn't really know what was going on. But they just needed an extra week. Do you think they've read Jordan Burris's piece in GovingGuff? Maybe. And if they haven't, I'm happy to send it to them.

SPEAKER_02

Good.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Should hang out with me and go take care of that.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. These are some great bills, by the way. We've been working on them for a while. Some really needed changes in policy to help prevent fraud across the government in all programs. So kudos to the team there that's been working on this, and best of luck on the markup this Wednesday. The fraud people are very excited. Very excited. Oh, I mean, it's hard to get the fraud people super excited too. And this we're roused. It's great. All right. Speaking of great, let's get to our guest. Robert, we've got a first again today here on the Gov Navigator Show. I'm very excited.

SPEAKER_02

We've been doing this so long. How could there be a first?

SPEAKER_03

Because we you know that we are groundbreaking. And for the first time in Gov Navigator Show history, we have two doctors joining us today. Oh my gosh. They're gonna want a white hat. So let me introduce them. Dr. Amanda Cash, Senior Director for the Center for Data Policy at the Data Foundation. And Dr. Adida Carkera, CDO at Deloitte's Government and Public Services Practice. Welcome to the Gov Navigator Show. Wow, we're big time. Thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks, Adam and Robert. I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_03

So we're here to talk about the CDO survey recently released, can joint project between Deloitte and the Data Foundation. So to start, tell us a little bit about the survey itself first before we get into the details about all this stuff. There's some great things that we're going to get into there, but just tell us about the survey and how you put it all together. Amanda, maybe you start with that and then we'll get into some of the details.

SPEAKER_01

Actually, push that one to Adita because she was more involved in the survey, putting together of the survey. But I will say that we've been doing this for six consecutive years. And this is my first time as being a small part of the survey development and not being a respondent to the survey. So I'm gonna let Ada take that one.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, thanks, Amanda. And that is correct. You were a respondent before your current role. So I appreciate the perspectives from both angles, Amanda. But Adam, to answer your question, you know, this was a joint effort between Data Foundation and Deloitte. So we kind of went hand in hand to prepare the survey questionnaire. So the preparation of the actual instrument, as well as kind of, you know, bringing along the insights and the way the market has been changing, you know, kind of seeing how the CDO role has evolved over the six years. I mean, we took all of that into account to shape the actual questionnaire instrument. And then, of course, it was pushed out by Data Foundation to get responses from the federal CDO community. And based on those anonymized responses, we came up with the survey findings. And to me, what's most interesting is the longitudinal aspect of this, to be able to see how the federal CDOs have been evolving since the Evidence Act was first passed to today. So just a little bit of how that process worked for us.

SPEAKER_02

So, Amanda, talk about your role, the data foundation's role, and you know, maybe if you can, what you've seen over time in CDO survey results.

SPEAKER_01

Sure. I think, you know, I was an early implementer of the Evidence Act at the Department of Health and Human Services. So I feel like I should also get bonus whites for mentioning the Evidence Act too. Don't want to be outdone by my colleague Aditat. And I think over time, what the CDO survey has demonstrated is that CDOs are becoming a community. They rely upon each other. They are a resilient community, they are continuing to implement aspects of the Evidence Act and working towards higher quality data, trustworthy data and data transparency. And I think this year's survey demonstrated that really well, especially the bindings that pointed to the importance of a CEO council.

SPEAKER_03

So yeah, I thought that was particularly interesting. Talk a little bit about that. The council predates the start of the survey. It was informal at a certain point, right? And then it was more formalized. Talk about the growth of that organization. And what did you find in the survey that really did you get into details about what the value was of the collaboration between CDOs? Or is it more that there was just a central place that gave them more legitimacy as a as an entity within federal agencies?

SPEAKER_00

I think kind of all of the above, Adam, right? And being a former government CDO, more in a state capacity to, you know, I can kind of talk about some of the challenges that the CDOs face day to day, right? But specifically coming back to the federal CDO role. I mean, I think the survey gave a strong signal that the survey showed us that we are now shifting from already having a federal framework, like we already have the federal data strategy, towards, hey, now we need help implementing this, right? We've had the context of having the federal data strategy. The CDOs kind of know the mandate. But I think the survey signal that the CDOs now need help implementing that, right? And I think that's where the CDO county really shone. Because I look at the CDO council and in my conversations with the CDOs, I see that they view the council as kind of like that central body, which brings along an avenue where CDOs can share reusable assets, right? Like playbooks, accelerators, sharing best dislike. And if I put myself in a government CDO hat again, you know, the value of that is tremendous, right? Like if I can learn from what another CDO did well, if there's a way I could repeat that process and save time, especially when resources are scarce. I mean, I think that's what the council is bringing together. And the CDOs, I feel, are hungry for that connection. So I see this council kind of being a force multiplier, especially when the CDO teams are so small.

SPEAKER_02

Go ahead, Amanda.

SPEAKER_01

I would agree with that, Adita, especially coming from a smaller agency. It was so helpful to be able to connect to CEOs that ran smaller agencies that maybe looked a little bit like mine. It was also incredibly helpful to be able to build on what larger agency CDOs had done as well. It really, like I said before, it really the CEO council itself developed the infrastructure for building that community. And I think it's demonstrating its efficiency and effectiveness by maintaining that community during a time of transition and you know, different aspects of resources for different agencies.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's a great insight. I want to scratch the topic of resources a little bit. We all know that the at the federal level, agency full-time employees have been reduced across the board. And a lot of functions are able to leverage technology, especially AI, to get their job done more efficiently, to be able to make do. But it would seem to me the chief data officers are being leaned on probably today more than ever. How are they and talk about how the your survey results reveal how they're getting through all that? Amanda, let's start with you.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think one of the things that we saw in the survey is that CDOs are wearing more hats. I think that's true not just for CDOs, but for other positions across the federal government as well. I think that is sometimes a really good thing, and sometimes it can be really challenging because it's very difficult to prioritize, you know, what role you need to be in and how to actually use less resources with more, more outcomes, more efficiency. I think the other thing the survey really demonstrated is that there that more than half of CDOs are now operating with five or fewer full-time floodlines or full-time employees, which is uh an increase from the previous year. And at what point, I think a question is at what point does a CDO office become too small to meet its statutory obligations? And especially if you're putting a CD, uh CDO in a position where they have to wear two hats or three hats, then what's the breaking point? And what get what prioritizes or priorities get deprioritized so that CDOs can continue to meet their statutory obligations and the obligations that are required to just keep the trains running, if you will.

SPEAKER_02

Do you have a perspective on that? Because I didn't really glean this that closely, but the resources are actually up from previous years at CDOs, unlike other ones.

SPEAKER_01

No, sorry. They're down. The decrease is up. So so more than half of CDOs are now operating with five or fewer. That's an increase in terms of the number of CDOs that have fewer. Five or fewer. Yeah, five or fewer.

SPEAKER_02

I was told there'd be no mana.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I was gonna just reiterate that, Robert. You know, it's interesting, as Amanda points out, that the resources available directly to support a CDO offices is really shrinking. But still, it's interesting that the survey shows that mission success is still rising, right? And to me, that's just not necessarily a signal that, hey, we need to compel them to do more with less, partially. But I think to me that's a striking signal and evidence that this function and the CDO role is strategic. And it's a signal to continue to invest more in it, so progress is sustainable, right? And then to another angle, to something that's I'm really interested in these days is, you know, as we see that CDO offices are dealing with capacity constraints, front and center, right? Like in it comes up every day in my conversations with them. To me, it seems like how can we do more with less and still leverage AI, Robert, to your point earlier. And so to me, it is like, hey, let's embed AI enablement in your processes, which are taking the most time. So that's like, how do I add AI enablement for data management and data governance, which are repetitive processes, right? So that was also a part of our recommendations as part of the report is how can you identify some of these processes? How do you continue to add identification to like things like metadata and catalog acceleration, governance build closing, data quality and issue management and such? And I think that's gonna really empower and accelerate the CDO's journey in data management.

SPEAKER_01

I'll just add out of 10 that I think collaboration is key to a CEO success in both incorporating AI and use into a lot of the processes you just mentioned, but also that I just wanna say it's clear quality is a continuous journey. And that I think CTOs should be using all of the assets that they have at their disposals and the partners, whether it be program partners or you know, their CIO colleagues, their CAIO colleagues. I think there's just an opportunity for partnering in new and different ways that maybe they haven't had the opportunity to do. And so, yeah, and I also want to just say how exciting it is the resilience that is being demonstrated.

SPEAKER_03

So go ahead, finish Samandic.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, just that there's so much resilience among the community, that's also a really exciting insight from the survey.

SPEAKER_03

So you we you mentioned AI and CAIO's chief AI officers. There was a lot of commentary a few years ago about like the proliferation of the chiefs and do we really need more chiefs and aren't there just too many chiefs now? But I think the CDO and the chief AI officer do fit fairly well together and technically separate hats, but given the magnitude of the need for good data to run most AI models and for AI to function well, it seems like they're good to have them together. And the survey showed too that a lot of CDOs are dual-hatted as a C AIO. So I'm interested in both of your thoughts about is that a good thing? Are with such limited resources, are CDOs truly overwhelmed now that we've opened up this sort of gigantic thing of everyone has to go and use AI? Or is this streamlining the way that these offices are operating with inside agencies? Amanda, maybe we'll start with you and then we'll go to you in detail.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I think we've looked at, and this survey covers department agency and bureau level CDOs, and capacity needs will very naturally vary depending on where CDOs operate. But in this year's survey, as you say, some CDOs have expressed concerns that they may not be able to meet those statutory obligations, like implementing Cat 3.0, given the September deadline. But that I think there is again an opportunity to collaborate where you know you are wearing two hats and lean on your other chiefs, as you are mentioning, Adam, in terms of your CIO and maybe you have a CTO. These and even potentially, you know, your statistical officials, if you are in a space where you work closely with your with your statistical agency or unit, I think there's a lot of opportunity for uh innovative partnerships and creative ways, as Adam to mention, with the use of AI and different processes to do more with less, even if you're dual-headed and you don't have as many chiefs in the kitchen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You want to add something on that too? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, Amanda, that's I concur. And you know, it's interesting, Adam, like you pointed out, nearly a third of the CDOs responded that they're also serving as chief artificial intelligence officers, or or at least deputy chief intelligence, chief artificial intelligence officers. And I feel that convergence of the role, I feel does have some upside, but like anything else, it comes with real risk as well. And at the bottom of it, right, you know, I mean, data is what is fueling AI. So whatever we do, they cannot fall too far apart from each other. And the data and the AI roles need to work in close collaboration. I mean, on the opportunity side, I feel like kind of bringing these two roles together has some advantage because now the data fundamentals are very much aligned with the AI ambition of these agencies and their missions, right? But I think the problem and the risk arises when there is no clarity in the roles. And I talk to CDOs who are taking on the AI portfolio and they're like, you know, I think I know what my boundaries are. And then I talk to the ones that are separate CDO and CAI, when they're like, I'm not really clear where role possibilities differ. So I guess long story, Adam, my point is I think there needs to be a careful and gentle balance in how these roles are defined for optimizing mission success, right? Eventually, to me, it's like, hey, you know, data trust is what's going to drive your model trust. So they're gonna work hand in hand and they have to figure out a happy medium to be successful as an organization.

SPEAKER_03

And those that those challenges for the CBO were there before everyone became obsessed with artificial intelligence, too. The the trust issue that you're talking about, right? Like if you don't trust the data, you can't get folks to start using it to make better decisions.

SPEAKER_00

100%. Like, and I mean, I can talk about that even as a citizen, right? Like you can have the coolest app or an AI algorithm. If you don't understand and trust it, I'm not gonna leverage it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yep. The I'm we should have started by congratulating you on actually producing this product in this environment because I know what a struggle it is to get people to respond, but it's a really valuable resource. And you make some recommendations. You just touched on one, Anita, about clear clarity of roles. Do you want to highlight some other recommendations you've made for the community?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'm happy to go first, and Amanda, please feel free to jump in and add there. I think Robert, there are four clear recommendations that we are coming out with from the report. One of them is the clarity in the new CXO roles that are emerging in the market that we touched on. The other one is kind of ensuring that CDOs have adequate capacity that can be sustained through their journeys, and that entails not just tech infrastructure or data infrastructure, but also personal resources to be able to actually deliver. And then, of course, the need for having robust data governance in place to have successful AI implementations. And then we largely recommend the CDO council to continue its great work and continue to provide that sustainable support for the CDO members. Amanda, welcome your input there. Well, I think you hit on all recommendations.

SPEAKER_01

I will just say again, I think there's been a remarkable amount of resilience and adaptability over the last six years of the survey, and in particular in the last year. And I think the other thing that CDOs will need to continue to focus on whether or not they're dual happened is data quality and improving data quality and ensuring that there is some level of data provenance so that data can be trustworthy and we can get those better insights out that she mentioned before.

SPEAKER_03

Well, this has been a fantastic discussion. The report is really great. I we appreciate you all taking the time and as Robert stated, effort. Particularly these days, to compile this. It's a valuable resource for the community. I think the findings, particularly those longitudinal findings, Adita, you were talking about at the beginning, I think those are incredibly valuable. And hopefully the folks within government, in not just in CDO offices and in offices focusing on data, but in the management community, should take a look at this because I think you're right. You both touched on this is becoming so much more and more prominent now. It's not just Robert Shea and the Evidence Act in the back room working on this. Uh everyone kind of should be caring and focused on data and the importance of using data to make better decisions. So we really appreciate you spending some time with us today.

SPEAKER_00

Adam and Robert, thanks so much for having us. I enjoyed the conversation and Amanda always ready to catch up with you. Same, thank you, Adam and Robert. This has been wonderful.

SPEAKER_02

So should we keep up the ruse so that we're actually recording any of this on the day it's released and pretend to be in Philadelphia? I think we should. Let's do that. Okay.

SPEAKER_03

Isn't Philly great? I love being in Philadelphia. City of Brotherly Love. And we're with my brother. That's right. And there's Blood Brotherly Love as we speak. Yes. We're in Philly for NASIO, the National Association of State CIOs mid-year conference. Having a great time?

SPEAKER_02

We've got a there we mentioned earlier in the show that the House Oversight Committee will take up those fraud bills, hopefully, on the 28th. We promised it last week, but this week I think it'll really happen.

SPEAKER_03

I think it's really gonna happen. I'm very excited to see them work on those and move them through. And we're still we're here for a couple of days and then back and then Fed 100. The evening of honors is Thursday night, and we'll be there too.

SPEAKER_02

It's gonna be fantastic. Let me know if anybody needs help with their bow tie.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So wait, just before we close, I saw this fashion tips to make sure you don't tie your bow tie perfectly, to make sure people know that it's a real bow tie and not a clip on bow tie. And I'm thinking to myself, there's no worry the way I tie a bow tie for that for sure.

SPEAKER_02

You will know. But it's also true that I'm not sure anyone can tie a bow tie that perfectly. That's kind of the that's the beauty of it, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

But I don't think anybody would doubt that I tied my bow tie. No, well, you're brilliant at it. And you will, for all you folks who are really obsessed here with the gov navigators, we'll post a picture of the bow ties so you can see it. End of the week.

SPEAKER_02

I'm sure people will be waiting with baited breath. That's right. Have a great week.

SPEAKER_03

Thanks for listening to another episode of the Gov Navigator Show, brought to you by GovNavigators. We sure hope you enjoyed it and learned something in the process and didn't get CTIC. Right, of course. If you want to know more about us and what we're up to, please follow us on social media or visit govnavigators.com. Ahoy!