FWTW S4E05 What Turns Postpartum Hell Into Leadership Gold? | Chou Hallegra's Truth | Barbie Moreno

New mom. Postpartum spiraling. Meds making it worse. Divorce shattering the picture-perfect life. Yet somehow, Chou Hallegra transforms it all into a mission to help thousands heal and belong. In this powerful conversation with host Barbie Moreno, the “Be Well Lady” shares how suicidal thoughts, childhood trauma, and a painful marriage became the very fuel for her work as a mental health specialist, DEI trainer, and founder of Grace & Hope Consulting.​​

Chapters
How Rock Bottom Changed Everything
Why Medication Wasn’t the Full Answer
What Natural Supports and “Personal Medicine” Look Like
How Divorce Became a Turning Point for Her and Her Kids
Why Knowing Who You Are Is Non-Negotiable
What First Step You Can Take Today

Keywords for Search
postpartum depression story, trauma healing journey, suicidal to survivor, natural mental health support, antidepressant side effects, divorce and mental health, single mom healing, women’s wellness coach, DEI and mental health, stress relief tools, self-care for mothers, finding your identity, Chou Hallegra, Barbie Moreno podcast, From Wounds to Wisdom​

CONNECT WITH CHOU HALLEGRA
pronounced as /shoo/

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Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/chouhallegra/
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Author www.writewithchou.com 

Grace & Hope for Families
https://graceandhopeforfamilies.org/
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https://www.youtube.com/@gracehopeforfamilies

Grace & Hope Consulting
https://www.graceandhopeconsulting.com/

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Season 2 
Unraveling the Mind: From Mental Struggles to Inner Strength. 

Transcript

From Despair To Determination

SPEAKER_02 0:01

From suicidal despair through postpartum trauma and divorce to thriving single mom of leading global wellness revolutions. Shu Gallegra, the Be Well Lady, founder and CEO of Grace and Hope Consulting, proves every wound forges unbreakable wisdom. Let's unravel her story of being a certified trauma slayer who's turned suicidal darkness into unstoppable life. Let's dive in.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

You're asking yourself, everything I went through, how can I turn it into a blessing for myself and for others? And it was in psychiatric hospital, and I realized this is not, I'm yes, I'm getting help, but I don't want to go back home and live the same life that I thought I was living because that was not living, that was surviving. Thanks for having me. I'm honored to be here.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Absolutely. So you have a story of survival, basically. I know that when we talked previously, you talked about some of the things that happened in your life that actually ended up putting you in a place that most of us don't want to go. Do you mind sharing your story?

SPEAKER_00 1:28

No, not at all. Go right in. Um, so I struggle with mental health challenges in the past to the point where I did not want to live anymore. And this um goes back, oh, 16 years ago now. I'm trying to, my daughter was two and a half and now she's 19. So 16, 17 years ago. Like many people who have had unresolved trauma, it's not until another stressor comes in their life that it actually goes and unravels all the trauma that was hiding underneath. So for me, I had it, I had my daughter, my first child, and everybody felt with just postpartum depression. And they're like, oh yeah, sure, get over it, sure get, you know, it's fine. She's the first child, she's in a new country, she doesn't have much support. So it all makes sense, right? People thought I would be just fine, I'll bounce back, okay. Two and a half years later, I was not bouncing back. And here, because of my own childhood trauma of neglect, abuse, you know, uh emotional and sexual. And I, although I love my child and I was supporting her, taking care of her as

Postpartum, Hidden Trauma, And Crisis

SPEAKER_00 2:30

much as I could, I couldn't find the strength to do it. Because being a mom reminded me of being a child who did not have what she needed. And now I can articulate that. But back then I couldn't. I was like, why is it I just can't seem to be, I'm not okay, and I don't know why. And and so I went to um counseling, and I'm glad I did. I at that time I already had a counselor because the day that I thought that I couldn't take it anymore, I had someone to call. So I called my counselor and explained to her, I said, I just feel like I want to die. And she's like, you need to get to the hospital, call 911, you know, have some, no, have them pick you up and take you to the hospital. I'm like, I think I can drive. She's like, no, I do not want you to drive. Because I and she was right. In that state of mind, it's not safe for you to for anybody to drive. But for me, it was no that moment that I I I for I knew I did not want to, but I felt like I wanted to. And you know, we can dump, no, uh, go into that a little a little bit later. So I end up going to uh driving myself to uh to the ER to emergency room at first. From there, I ended up in a psychiatric hospital. And it wasn't a psychiatric hospital, and I realized this is not, I'm yes, I'm getting help, but I don't want to go back home and live the same life that I thought I was living because that was not living, that was surviving. And um so that's one of the things, but through all that journey, like getting to that moment and then start working on my mental health, realizing I had a result of child trauma that I needed to take care of, that I needed to process and heal from. And I thought that was good. I mean, once I got to that point and worked for that years later, I'm like, I think I'm doing fine. And then I wasn't. Then divorce happened, right? And that rocked my mental health as well. Then I was kind of redefining who I was, you know, outside of being a wife, and all the all the dreams and goals that we have when we get married just crumbled. And I had my identity so um enmeshed, if you want, you know, in that that I didn't even know who I was, you know, and that impacted my mental health as well, and which then led to other physical health no needs and um physical health challenges. So then the life that again I want, I thought I want I had was not the life I was living. And I had to do that.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

And so let me stop you there, if you don't mind, real quick, because I want to kind of unpack some of this because there is a lot there, and um, a lot of our listeners are women, so we understand what you're talking about, right? Even if we didn't have postpartum depression, when you become a mother, it's almost like you lose your identity and you you have to basically give up who you are, right? And so without the postpartum depression, it's a hard transition. And then I feel like they're getting better at it, but there's not a lot of support or uh for postpartum depression. I I went through that too, and like I we talked previously about the you know pharmaceutical industry, and I don't know what your experience was with it, but I'd love to learn. I know

Hospital Wake-Up And Choosing Life

SPEAKER_03 5:20

mine was just being shifted from medication to medication to medication. How did you what was your experience with that?

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Oh, thanks for bringing that up. So, part of what um led to me being suicidal, yes, I had a resolved trauma that unravels as part of no, as part of my post uh portum depression, but it was also the new medication that actually was the onset of that. They put me, and everyone is different, you know, but I was put on Zolov, and Zolov actually, if you read, if you read the the disclosure from that right, gave me suicidal ideation that I couldn't shake off. And now I yeah, and then now I actually have that as part of my no allergies, if you want, on my health, or my health, um, my health profile. So everywhere I go, if if I'm going for migraine or I'm going for, you know, god forbid something happened, I broke your arm. Everywhere I go, I want people to know please do not ever, ever, ever, ever, never put me on Zolloff again. And yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

And that's common. Like, I don't think people realize that a lot of these prescription medications have suicidal ideation. Um, I read a book about a mother who had a son and he had asthma, and they put him on an inhaler, and the inhaler had the disclosure, disclaimer that nobody told her about, right? She went to the doctors, nobody said anything. And one of the side effects was um, you know, suicide. And he actually committed suicide simply from taking his inhaler. Could you imagine? It's heartbreaking, and they don't tell us about these things.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

No, no, and I think often, you know, someone who also now works in the field, I realize that it's sad to put it this way where pharma is after the dollar sign, after the money. And I'm just gonna be blunt. You know, people are making the the medic medication, people are selling the medication, don't give two rats, you know, you know what, about your health by you, you know, seriously. And I think a part of this, you know, becoming and reclaiming my power, reclaiming my identity, reclaiming who I am, was also putting myself in the driver's seat of my own well-being. Yeah, and realize that even when doctors say, oh, take this, I will question that. I'm known as the non-compliant, you know, patient, even when it comes to physical health, because now I know I have a voice. And I often share that. Let's say you have a headache, you go to a doctor and you know, urgent care, wherever you go get you know care. And someone might say, Oh, just you know, take Tylenol or take abuprofen. You know, for those of us who are in the US, we kind of know what those two medications are. But the point is when you take each eat one or the other, they might not work the same for you. Only you will know if Tylenol works better better for your aches or ibuprofen does. And so, unless you articulate that to the physician and say, hey, I've tried those before, when one or the other works best for me, they're gonna keep having more stuff to, you know, and you keep taking more and more. And with every new medication comes more side effects.

SPEAKER_03 8:18

Right, exactly. I agree 100%. And also, have you found that there's any natural remedies instead of going to these pharmaceuticals? Like, what's your experience with that? I know I had to turn to natural remedies because the stuff that they're giving you is just so bad for your liver, your kidneys, it makes you ill. What's your experience with that?

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Yeah, same here. The more natural I went, the better I felt. And you know, from and doing a lot of research, like again, being putting yourself in the driver's state of your own well-being requires you to do work. It's not just saying no to everything that is said out there, but it's finding out what works best for you. And some, you know, it's research, is attending webinars, attending health, you know, um homopathic, you know, retreats and conferences, right? Learning for people who have been using natural remedies and then learning more about how they work together, how they impact your health, how they can benefit you, and then

Divorce, Identity, And Rebuilding

SPEAKER_00 9:10

trying. And there's some that worked well, some didn't work. I remember depression, but say take St. John's words, you know, works for you. That didn't really work well for me. And I found out later that I had a chronic vitamin D deficiency, which will actually cause not just the aches and pains in your body, but also impacts your mood, you know. And so I start taking more supplements like that. Magnesium was helping better for my migraine and depression more than anything else that anti-depression I've been on. So once you start, you know, learning more and trialing, if you want, you know, do some trial and error, you can come up with, you know, a regimen if you want that works for you. And outside of in just taking supplements, it's what you know we often call, you know, in the pure support model, you know, your personal medicine. You know, for me, it's nature, it's journaling, it's doing things that give me purpose. That brings me more life than any antidepressant I can ever take, right? Moving my body as much as I can. For me, it's swimming. So all the other things that we might put aside that from the pharma does not, you know, add to your list of prescription often helps you more than the medication itself. And there's research there to prove that, you know, that there's one that I read a while back about antidepressant. It was a group of people who took antidepressant every day for three weeks, and another group who did not do the antidepressant 30 minutes of you know of um um aerobics every day. And not only the days that did no, when they stopped the program, they had more lasting effect, positive effect of the physical uh activity they did, but then those who were only taking the medication. When they stopped, the ones who were taking the meds, once they stopped taking the meds, depression came back, and then they create that dependency. And then many of us have been addicted to meds, you know, not in the Bible because we're looking at we're looking for high, but just our bodies start craving these things are not helpful, and then we can't get off of it.

SPEAKER_03 10:59

Well, and the the more we take, the more we need, right? I read this book. I love to read, obviously. I read this book, it's by I think it's the Laura Delano, and she talks about the other problem is that when they switch you from medication to medication, your body doesn't get the ability to acclimate, right? So if you're on like let's say 100 milligrams and then they just shift you to another medication or they take you off of it because let's say you're having suicidal thoughts or whatever, your body actually needs to taper off of it. If they just completely take you off of it, it throws your brain into this spiral and sends you back into that horrible place. And a lot of the doctors will just shift your medication without tapering.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Yeah, yeah. And it's sad, you know, I I I'm not against doctors.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

Of course, of course, they have a time and a place, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:49

And and it's sad that I have friends who, you know, who are in the medical field, and it's sad some of them actually will you know, I know some have quit their jobs and still looking over ways of supporting people because even for them, this is not what they sign up for. Nobody goes to medical school and to accumulate all the debt just to be cutting corners, right? But the way our system works where they have so many patients who see a day, it's like, oh, just try this because you have to go to the next patients and not even have a time to not just taper off by even explain to people what this medication is supposed to do, how it interacts with the other meds you're taking, right? And you know, and what will happen if you stop taking it. Like we're not even providing people with enough education for people to make informed decisions.

SPEAKER_03 12:28

Well, and that's why working with somebody like you or working with somebody like me, we actually take the time to talk to people, right? Like, so we're not doctors, we're not um, you know, prescribing medication, but the difference is you hit it like the nail on the head right there, that we um take the time and doctors get like 15 minutes of patience. That's the way that it works, especially in the United States, where they have to see so many patients in order to make a profit because the way the insurance companies pay them. And so, as much as they probably have good intentions, and you can't you can't get to know anybody, you don't know their trauma, you don't know their past, you don't know anything about them in 15 minutes. Right, right, yeah. So, I I would like to like kind of shift to the the divorce because where I live, it's like a 70% divorce rate, and you know, when you're having mental health issues, on top of that, it's very hard for another person to understand what you're going through. How do you describe this place where your mind is at, which you don't even understand, right? So, what did the divorce do to you? And how did it get to that point? Was it because of the struggle that you had?

SPEAKER_00 13:33

No, and and I don't think it was even my mental health, honestly. Um, because like I said, I was working through it already. So, but I'm I think my youngest is now 11, and we separated with my ex my ex-husband when I was still pregnant with him, so 12 years ago. So just kind of going backwards here, which means at that point I would have been out of the psych hospital like four years into it. Um yeah, and my mental health was actually I back then at its best. I was doing better, I was, you know, just this living life, I thought, right? But also here's the part of part that nobody tells you when you start healing, you start discovering things that you settle for, places that no longer serve you, and you you find the strength to not put up with with nonsense. And when you start and you find the strength to advocate for yourself, to and the more you advocate, people who are not used to the new you, which I call the true you, are not gonna receive that well. So there's things that I saw red flags way back when, and I'm like, we'll be fine, we'll push for it, we'll work through it, because it was one more thing I didn't want to deal with, right?

SPEAKER_03 14:44

And well, and you don't want to put your kids through that, right? There's so much guilt, especially for women, that if you divorce, like you're putting your you're you're being selfish and you're putting your kids second, even though they say like a uh two separate homes is healthier than one unhappy home, right? Yeah, did you grieve your marriage and the loss of your marriage? Or was it just something that you wanted to get out of?

SPEAKER_00 15:06

No, I did grieve, and even when I so when we separated, full disclosure, I didn't even file for divorce until um 20 2016, 2017. So although although I was separated in 2013, I still waited a good four years before I even filed for divorce because I wanted things to work out. I wanted to give each person the space to work through our own junk, if you want, and and and and commit to this. And even after four years, I realized I was the only one who was committed to those children. And at the end, like you said, we often women we hear, well, you have to do what's best for the kids, and we think what's best for the kids, putting them on a healthy home where nobody's thriving, everybody's supporting and literally emotionally, you know, suppressing and chucking, you know, choking each other per se. You know, not physically, I thought there was no physical abuse there per se, but definitely a lot of emotional ones going on and verbal. And so I had to come to the point as I was healing from my own mental health challenges, realizing that this was not the life that I wanted for myself or to for my kids. I didn't want my sons, I have one daughter and three boys. I didn't want my sons to grow up thinking that it was okay to treat anybody this way. And I went on my daughter to grow up thinking that, oh, uh it no, because you're the woman,

Medication Risks And Self-Advocacy

SPEAKER_00 16:20

you need to just submit and put up with it and put up with put up with abuse, you know, and it's called for what it was. And um, and so as hard as it was to go against you know my upbringing, against my culture, I'm originally from Africa, against even the religious circle that I that I was part of, as hard as it was, part of me healing, you know, was recognizing that I deserve better, that my kids deserve better, and I wanted to leave a better legacy for them. And it was hard-reaching because I grew up in the I grew up in a broken home, as you know, people often say my parents only had me, and by the time I was five, they were no, they were no longer together. And I didn't want to give that to my kids. But I can tell you, I'm not here to say that everybody needs to divorce. No, I I want people to be whole and and and well enough to make the better choices so that we build marriages and families that last. That's my dream for everyone. But when you're not that's not working, please take it, do take, take care of yourself, take care of those who matter to you. And I've seen people come back together after the work for the issues. That was not my case. So I got to grieve all of that, to grieve the dream that I had of my kids growing up in the home of mom and dad. I'm still not remarried yet. So I've been a single mom for all these years, but then I realized to be honest, I always been a single mom with just the fake title of being a wife.

SPEAKER_03 17:33

Isn't that a big aha moment? That that that right there just I felt everybody else, including myself, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:39

I'm in one way, I would say look like I was married, right? And inside I was just living a facade of the way that I was because I was hiding all the pain. So once the the curtains got you know pulled, and people like, oh you're divorced, I'm like, I honestly always been alone with these children, yeah. And I just I even had to sit with that, and that hurts, even to keep give myself the grace to recognize that, but I did what I knew to do best at the time with the resources and you know and and knowledge and support I had back then. When you know better, you do better.

SPEAKER_03 18:10

Yeah, my Angela. Yeah, that's my Angela. Um, so one thing that I learned that a lot of people also struggle with is that when we pick the partner that we pick at the time and we haven't healed, we're going to pick what's familiar to us. So as we begin to learn about ourselves and as we go down our journey, we outgrow those wounds, we outgrow those um, you know, those patterns that we have that would attract us to somebody that was familiar to us when we no longer want to be in that space because we've actually healed. And so, like you were saying, like you're working on yourself, things are changing, and this person's not changing, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:49

You know, in so many ways, you know, people people we probably heard this where marriage is two imperfect people coming together trying to create a perfect life, right? And and and it's chaos for most people, and so unless we do the work that the inner work that we need to donate on on ourselves, we are constantly bringing our wounds to the table instead of bringing our best selves. And you know, and I wish this was a different narrative. When I got I was 21 when I got married, this is not what I had hoped for, right? That's not what I dreamed for. And I and now I can say that we both came with needs that were unmet, and and and in trying to meet our own needs, you know, one became a tyrant, the other one became a doormat. Yeah, so I had to wake up and can no longer be a doormat. But he has an own trauma that he had to work for. That's not for me to you know to do for him, right? Just like nobody could do, I don't do my own trauma for me. I had to work for that, realize that I matter, that I'm you know, I'm worthy of respect and honor. And you know, and that was a wake up call that was hard to make, and realizing that waking up from that meant also pulling away um and eventually, you know, being here where I'm not divorced. But looking back, and even my kids, I feel Daughter was only 12 when she said, Wow, mom, we actually happier. And what and that was the only word that she knew at that time. Now that she's 19, she's she will see life is more peaceful, life with coma. We are actually thriving with other people before they needed to be there, which is sad to say. But just to prove that sometimes you might not know what the outcome will be, but when you're putting well-being first, when you you know when you're choosing what matters, then you're you know choosing for the future. Now it's gonna be uncomfortable in the here and now. I often ask myself and ask, you know, encourage others to ask themselves, what would that how would this impact my life five years, ten years, twenty years from now?

SPEAKER_03 20:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

And if it I'm willing to I'm willing to put up through temporary discomfort for long-term success, long-term thriving, love, long-term, you know, peace and calm and blessings.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

Yeah, it's you do have to do, you have to be uncomfortable. We only grow in uncomfort, right? And I feel like what I've experienced is that a lot of people just live their life walking through like zombies. They wake up every single morning, they have the same routine, they do their obligations, they're too tired at night to do anything. So they kind of check in on social media or watch TV to you know, to zone out, and they don't take care of themselves like you mentioned. So when you work with people, um, give us some wisdom that you, you know, give to them to help them start off in their journey and start start learning and connecting with who they really are.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Yeah, I often tell people try to start with forgetting what you've heard, what you've been told, what society expects of you, even what your upbringing was. In order to find the true you, sometimes you have to disconnect from those things first. I'm not saying cut people off like a parent or siblings just for no reason. That's not what I'm saying, but it's gonna go in broadly ask yourself what do I want?

SPEAKER_03 21:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

You know, and I was talking to clients. Oh, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 21:53

Oh no, I'm sorry, I just want to say a lot of people don't know what they want.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Exactly. Yeah, and when we become a mom, like you're saying earlier, we lose even more of our identity. So, you know, I I remember having clients, so I know they're dealing with just parenting stress and no, maybe not just, I know that's a lot, been there, right? And I'll ask them, I say, what do you want? And they're like, I'm not sure. And I remember one mom said, I don't remember what my favorite color is, I don't remember what my favorite meal is because I've been so living so much for those kids. There'll be love. I've been living so much for my career sometime. I've been living so much for my parents when we're caring for the for uh parents who are aging that we forget who we are. And all those things are important, but unless unless we know who we are, life continues to happen to us, you know, instead of happening for us. If I know who I am, then I put myself in the center, not in a selfish way, in a prevention way, in a preventive way. Because you can know whether it's we call it self-care, self-compassion, all of those things are prevention to burnout, prevention to stress, prevention to be, it's even suicide prevention for those of us who have had men who have challenges.

Natural Supports And Personal Medicine

SPEAKER_00 23:00

You know, the more you focus on your own well-being first before you start putting it into everybody's cup, you are taking care of yourself and preserving your well-being so you can do more of it. You know, my kids now are even now that the older we have so much fun and they have so many more memories, even in spite of other challenges we had later on, because I take the time to work on myself. I've taken the time to build, you know, to build regimens, if you want routines that shows to them that self-care is important, that taking care of yourself matters. And now I even hear them, you know, in the boys or 13 11, say, well, can you just please don't be in this in this space? I'm gonna sit here by myself. I just want to watch to be alone. And I love that. It might sound weird for people not used to it, but I am by you taking care of yourself, especially for women, and I'm speaking to women's your mom, especially. The more you prioritize your well-being, you are breaking honestly generational curses, if you want, for future generations. Because many of us, you know, work like robots, many of us, you know, work ourselves to the ground because that's what we saw our mom or grandma, great-great-grandma do. Right. And we put up with things that because it just that's how it's always been done around us. Yeah, I don't think that's what we're gonna pass on to our kids.

SPEAKER_03 24:09

Right. We we need to change so that they can change. So as we wrap up here, give us one tool. So, one tool to get started, because you went from suicidal to somebody who's an inspiration, and you know, some people just say, Yeah, all that sounds great, but how do I get started? So, just one simple tool.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

The first one, I'll think the one, the biggest one, is changing your mindset. I know that sounds big, right? But the way you do that, it's asking yourself everything I went through, how can I turn it into a blessing for myself and for others? Yeah, because if I always see my challenges as problems, I'm gonna live in the problem mentality and I'm not gonna find the strength to move forward. And for me, my faith did that for me. My faith helped me to find purpose in my pain. Today, all the things I do is because I've been there. I actually I am, I often say I'm the person I wish I had when I was going through my hardest times or I to my darkest moments. And when you learn to turn the stumbling blocks into stepping stones, honestly, for me and for many others, you find that joy on the journey. So maybe for you, Rana, just maybe just blogging about your story so that encourage someone else. And joining the support group where you get supported, and then you also others get supported, you know, through your presence there that you know, so that you know you're not alone, others also benefit from you being there. So once you start changing, like would this happen to me? But I'm taking the decision now to make it work for me. That changes everything.

SPEAKER_03 25:34

So it sounds like the a very good first tool would be maybe join some sort of support group or join a community. If people are interested in working with you, how would they find you?

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Some of the things we talked about here uh on my website for that when I do more individual work for personal uh growth and personal healing, it's under graceandhopeforfamilies.org.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

And then Grace and Hopefor Families.org. Okay.

unknown 25:57

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

And then um, for those who are looking for more support, like in the workplace for your career or for your professional development, that's under graceandhope consulting.com.

SPEAKER_03 26:08

Perfect. And we'll have all of that in the description. We're super grateful for you sharing your experience. There's more, I mean, I know that there's so much more to unpack that we can't get done in 30 minutes. Um, so I really invite people to reach out to you on the website. Uh, do you have other podcasts or do you blog, or what other tools do you have that's available to people if they go to your websites?

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Yeah, so on the website, either one of them, you can and then you look at the different services we provide, but there's blogs on there. You can also schedule a free 15-minute consultation with me. Um, then we get to talk about your specific, you know, situation and how we can help and maybe then give you resources that are tailored, excuse me, to what you are going through. Um, I'm also on LinkedIn, so I post no share a lot of resources on there as well. So um a lot of people just appreciate even just the content that put there for the you know, you don't have to book a meeting, a session with me if you're not ready for that. But feel free to utilize the free resources we have on LinkedIn, on um Facebook, on um YouTube, all of those you'll find the links on the website.

SPEAKER_03 27:12

Thank you. Thank you, Chu, for joining us. And I really think your journey is coming from wounds to wisdom. And I really liked your last tip about joining a community, join a support group, because that in and of itself doesn't take a ton of effort and it doesn't take a ton of energy, and it really does give you the space to start to learn to grow and get to know yourself. So thank you so much for coming on.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_03 27:35

All right, thanks. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_04 27:37

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