How do you scale partnerships to play with the big players like Salesforce?
Jill Dignan takes us on a journey through the successes she’s had driving traffic through channel relationships. She shares insights on the importance of leading with empathy in partnerships.
Join us as we dive deep into the intricacies of building meaningful relationships, overcoming challenges with partners and pricing, and the value of mentorship in a challenging work environment.
Highlights:
00:43 Dreamforce and INBOUND recap
01:32 Intro to Jill Dignan
02:43 Stumbling into partnerships
04:07 You can't have empathy without action
10:29 Empathy and business
11:27 Building a StoryBrand
13:45 How do you show empathy in business
20:01 How to start building relationships
26:28 Thinking outside the box
29:34 Managing relationships in Salesforce
36:34 How do we get the partnerships flywheel in motion
38:35 Building a Nearbound strategy
40:30 Who do you look to as mentors?
45:32 How to find a mentor
51:04 What books do you recommend?
How do you scale partnerships to play with the big players like Salesforce?
Jill Dignan takes us on a journey through the successes she’s had driving traffic through channel relationships. She shares insights on the importance of leading with empathy in partnerships.
Join us as we dive deep into the intricacies of building meaningful relationships, overcoming challenges with partners and pricing, and the value of mentorship in a challenging work environment.
Highlights:
00:43 Dreamforce and INBOUND recap
01:32 Intro to Jill Dignan
02:43 Stumbling into partnerships
04:07 You can't have empathy without action
10:29 Empathy and business
11:27 Building a StoryBrand
13:45 How do you show empathy in business
20:01 How to start building relationships
26:28 Thinking outside the box
29:34 Managing relationships in Salesforce
36:34 How do we get the partnerships flywheel in motion
38:35 Building a Nearbound strategy
40:30 Who do you look to as mentors?
45:32 How to find a mentor
51:04 What books do you recommend?
Welcome to the Friends with Benefits podcast, a business podcast about revenue generating partnerships, not a podcast about business time with friends. We're your co hosting couple. I'm Jason. And I'm Sam. Welcome to the show, friends.
Jason:Welcome back to the show. Friends, we are back after taking a brief week off. I think we all just kind of needed a break from, uh, all the travels that we've been doing. I was at Inbound for a whole week and Sam you were at a little conference called Dreamforce. Good time
Sam:It was tiny. Yeah, it was fun though.
Jason:of people were there. Uh, it's funny how conferences can be so exhausting. uh,
Sam:Yeah.
Jason:especially those big ones. Inbound was my first inbound. And man, that was a, an an amazing time and so many new people to meet.'cause as I'm new to the HubSpot ecosystem and I was like a kid in a candy shop, so, you know, more than exhausted coming back and then Dreamforce for you. So needed a break. But we're back and we've got a really spectacular guest today. I actually listened to a few of her previous podcasts that she's been on in the past. And, uh, gotta say I'm very excited about this conversation. Sam, tell us what we've got.
Sam:Um, hey everybody. We're glad to be back. Um, we have Jill Dignon here with us today, and we are so excited. Jill and I actually saw each other last week in person at Dreamforce, which is rare, but very fun Um, just a quick background on Jill. She's the chief growth officer at V two. Who is a top Salesforce consultancy? Uh, she stumbled into the Salesforce ecosystem and has spent the last several years becoming customer obsessed and helping others fall in love with Salesforce too. I love that. Um, she started as a co consulting or consultant and then moved into the operations side of the business and is now the chief growth officer. So we're gonna talk about kind of what that journey looked like. But she's been responsible for taking V two from more of a traditional sales model to one that scales with partnerships, which is why we're all here. She's a mom, she lives in New Hampshire, and from my personal opinion and many others, she's a powerhouse woman in the partner space. So welcome, Jill. We're so thrilled to have you here.
Jill Dignan:Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here. I, I know we're chatting beforehand and talking a little bit about all the good things you, you guys are doing with this podcast, so super stoked to be here and excited for the conversation.
Jason:Yes, it's gonna be great. And I was kind of just chuckling to myself to say you, you stumbled into the the Salesforce ecosystem. And I think it's funny, I feel like we've all kind of stumbled into partnerships that those of us that have been in it for a while, you know, it's like we've been in it for a few years here. I'm sure you have, but like those who've gotten into partnerships, we've just kind of like stumbled into this. Wonderful world of, of ecosystems, partnerships and stuff like that. So it's, it's fun to see, uh, people like yourself join us and getting to meet the the the great folks in partnerships these days.
Jill Dignan:Absolutely. Yeah. And it's been, it's been a wonderful road and an interesting journey getting here. And I know from talking to a lot of other folks in this World and this ecosystem. Um, everyone's coming from really different diverse backgrounds and, um, I don't know how many people are, you know, going into school and coming out in their careers and saying, you know, I wanna be a partnerships person. I, I wanna go into alliances. So, um, it's just really interesting to see all the different backgrounds and perspectives that people are bringing and that's why I'm, I'm excited to, to chat and also continue to tune in to episodes after today.
Jason:Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully, uh, we're we're the, the place to get your M B A and partnerships and relationships.'cause, you know, Stanford's not quite, you know, supplying that yet.
Jill Dignan:I love that.
Jason:So I, I did have a chance to, uh, listen to a couple of your, your podcasts. Uh, I'd like to do a little bit of research before we interview somebody and, uh, stumbled across a few good ones and a few good articles. And you, you you went down this track on, on one of your interviews around empathy, and that's a, you know, big one for us here. Uh, vulnerability, relationships, empathy, the things that make them work And said something that that really stood out to me. You said you can't have empathy without action.
Jill Dignan:Mm-hmm.
Jason:I love that line. Um, I'm actually gonna, you know, write that down and make it clear and plain everywhere I go. Um, it's active and visible. Can you break that down for me a little bit and kind of ex, you know, maybe begin into a little bit of what empathy in our in business partnerships looks like.
Jill Dignan:Yeah, it's, it's definitely a big question. And it's interesting because when I was on that podcast, I was actually in a little bit of a different role here at V two. It was when I was in my c o O role and I was overseeing our delivery organization, our IT and operations globally as well as talent. So talent ultimately rolled up in And to me, and we did a lot of, you know, strategy around our recruiting practices, our, um, you know, talent management and retention and, and management, uh, trainings and things like that for our team as we were continuing to scale. And so empathy and the concept of that. Kind of, uh, traversing not just what we were doing on the talent side, but how we were working with clients from a consulting delivery perspective really became an important topic. and um, something, you know, we really tried to figure out, you know, is this something that. can be taught. Is it something that just people have and we have to hire for? Um, if people do have it, how do we make them more aware of how to bring empathy into consulting conversations and even partnership conversations working, uh, with Salesforce from a delivery perspective? So, um, yeah, I, I think on the partnership side, it's really about, uh, you know, going back to kind of the name of your, your podcast friends with benefits and emphasis on the friends, right? The benefits are great if they come with it, but you gotta focus on the friend part first. And, um, thinking about that in business, it's, it's really about, um, opening yourself up, coming into conversations in an authentic way. Um, trying to understand the person that's on the other side and what's important to them, and recognizing. They're a whole person as well, besides what they're just bringing into a Zoom screen, right? They're, they're, uh, you know, um, people living in cities, in, in rural areas. They've got family. They may have kids, um, they may be married, they may be divorced, they may be, you know, juggling a lot of things outside of work. And work is just one piece of who they are. And I think Reminding yourself of that and really being, you know, active, um, you know, selfless, uh, vulnerable, used that word earlier. Coming into those conversations is really important to building relationships and building trust. Um, every good relationship is built on trust. So I think that that all starts with empathy.
Jason:think that's, that's great and I love that, you know, it's, it's a good reminder, you know, to to of, to set your mindset when you're coming to work, you know, of who you are and what you're doing here and, and how you're working with other people and managing relationships. I am curious though, were you, did you find that you were able to train people to be more empathetic? Because if their authentic self is not, you know, practicing empathy, like how can you learn that?
Jill Dignan:Yeah. Well, so I, I definitely. Struggle to pick a side on this debate. Um, I, I waffle quite a bit. I am, I'm definitely somebody who, you know, if we could get into debates around religion or politics or any sorts of those things we won't be talking about today. Um, I, I can go in with an open mind and be convinced, uh, if someone can debate or argue something really well. So, um, The, the positive, optimistic side of me wants to think that, uh, you know, just like anything else in life, people can learn, they can, uh, it may be hard to teach, but people can learn from experiences that, that they go through, right? So teaching something versus someone learning it on their own over time, through their own evolution. Um, and, uh, maturation, um, I think is possible. Um, I've been reading a lot about, not to go completely off topic, but reading a lot and listening to a lot of podcasts around, um, Buddhism and meditation lately. Um, and there's this concept that, uh, you know, um, you know, love and empathy and things like that can be taught. Um, but it, it, it's taught through You know, introspection and reflection, and it's intrinsic. So I do think people can learn it, but if you're an organization that's thinking that you can train people to become more empathetic, um, I do kind of fall in more of the pessimistic camp on that and say, no, you've got, you've got really hire for it. And if people are going to become more empathetic over time, it's gonna be on their own journey, so to speak. I don't know what, what your thoughts on that are, if that's too far out there, or.
Jason:I, think it can be, can be learned and, and I think, you know, starting off you can teach somebody to, to listen. Right. And I think in order to, to really be actively empathetic, it has to start with listening. And the more you listen, the more you hear people and the more you get to hear kind of their side versus your side. And I think that begins to kind of break down this barrier that we have that, you know, we don't, that we don't perceive the way others do, but when we start to listen more, we can actually begin to perceive. More from the other side. And I think that's more of the problem or the issue is not thinking about the other person and being, to your point, like selfless. Uh, those that, you know, maybe we're a little more selfish if we were not practicing or working with empathy. We don't understand the EQ behind it. And, you know, the more we, we stop, listen and in acknowledge and observe others, I think the more that we can learn empathy and, and take that on. But if it's not something that you actively practice every day, it's something that you've got to start to practice and you know, mindfully go into
Jill Dignan:Absolutely.
Sam:I think it starts too with like. It's so counterintuitive to business because we're all like, what's, let's grow, let's grow, let's grow. Let's get new customers. Let's you know, but especially from the partnership perspective, and Jill too, from the consultancy consultancy perspective, like, no wonder you're looking to hire for this because the end goal. For us as partner professionals should be what's in it for them and how can I make them successful? And if you can start from that frame of mind, you are going to be successful too. Because people are gonna, it's, we talked about it a lot on this podcast, law of reciprocity. They're gonna, they're gonna return that value back to you. But it's definitely, I, I agree completely. You. You have to want to learn it. It's not something that you can just like take a, take a course on and check that box and good to go. I'm empathetic now.
Jill Dignan:There's a, a book by Donald Miller, um, about the, the StoryBrand. I don't know if you've read that. I ha and
Sam:We are huge
Jill Dignan:it. Okay. So I have not read this book my husband has, and um, he kind of got me to, to go and research it. And so I've read up a lot about the framework of, um, StoryBrand and the concept of that and just really. You know, not, not competing for the role of hero, right? And, um, it is something that requires a lot of awareness day to day. I mean, for me it's a daily struggle. It's a a daily struggle because I am super competitive and I like to win. I'm super revenue focused. And so especially with, you know, challenges that we're all facing as, as partners right now, um, in, in, you know, uh, we've had a great year, but it's, there's a lot of pressure, right? And there's a lot of uncertainty and so I think. Trying to keep that at the forefront of everything that you're doing, which is, I'm not the hero. This is not about me. This is not about our business. This is about the partnership, and this is about, um, how can I help, you know, how can I come into a conversation and be helpful to our counterparts at Salesforce? It's a daily struggle, right? It's a daily thing that you've gotta kind of. Gear up in your mind and kind of put on this alter ego and say, I'm, I'm going in. And, um, you know, I, I'm have to remind myself, myself, I'm not the hero in this story. Um, they're the protagonist. I'm like somebody else. I'm here to like, help them. Right? It's like,
Jason:the, you're the guide in this con in that context of StoryBrand. Right? If you think about, you know, stories, Luke Skywalker's, the, the hero, and Yoda is the guide, and, but really Yoda's the real hero that, that pushes and guides everybody to be the their best. Right? and
Jill Dignan:Uh, yeah, I was thinking like Lord of the Rings with, uh, with Frodo and Sam, like we, we as the partner, like we're Sam and, and Salesforce is Frodo and we're helping them get through their journey. And if we can learn and grow and get there together, all the better. But it doesn't always work out that way.
Jason:Yeah,
Sam:I, I'm gonna pitch this to Salesforce. I mean, I've already got the Sam part down. They just need to go by Frodo. Now,
Jill Dignan:you're halfway there.
Sam:so you kind of touched on this, but how does, like, how does one actively show empathy with a giant partner like Salesforce? And then how, on the flip side, what does have you received empathy from them?
Jill Dignan:That's a great question. Um, Yeah, showing empathy with Salesforce and being, you know, a smaller partner. You know, I think that's actually been, um, it, it's been one of our biggest challenges and things to overcome because I. We are a small partner. We're under a hundred people. We're continuing to grow and hire, which is really exciting. But we are oftentimes competing with the GSIs and the ecosystem. We, we predominantly work with high growth, enterprise and global customers. So, you know, we're working with, you know, the, the Forbes of the world and, and the clear channels of the world and these really, really big companies that, um, have alternative partners that they could work with. And. Um, we only have so many resources and, and budget that we can invest in partnerships, and I'm continuing to work to try to grow that budget going into next year. Um, but we have to get creative and we can't, you know, we can't travel constantly. We can't put on these big events. We can't just do the whole whining, dining thing. Dining. Um, so oftentimes it's really about. Figuring out where to spend our energy with what people, with what teams, and then making sure that when we are investing that time, that it's, it's meaningful and that, um, there is a personal aspect to it and trying to figure out, um, you know, how to, how to optimize the energy and investments that we do have, uh, on the partnership side. So, um, We do a lot of enablement. Um, that's kind of one of our ways of giving back to Salesforce, right? We work with, um, customers that have a lot of complexity and complex needs. Um, we're working to. Pitch ultimately, um, you know, big solutions, multi-cloud solutions, transformation projects. Um, of course we do niche implementations and things like that as well, but a lot of the stuff we do, there's a big consulting flare. Um, we're consultants first, technologists second, and so there's just this inherent complexity that we're always navigating. Salesforce is navigating that with us, and we know that they're not living in the same world we're living in every day. They're not living in a, a consulting bubble. Um, and going really deep with industry. Um, so we know that one of the things we can offer is, um, education, right? Like we're gonna come in and we're going to, um, share our insights on what's going on in media or comms or retail or retail media, and, um, No stupid questions. You know, anybody can ask whatever they want. We can, we can provide enablement around any topic. Um, you know, whether it's, you know, what's most important to a Chief Revenue officer of an ad sales organization, um, or, you know, when we're looking at a complex solution like, uh, media cloud, uh, or personalization, or MuleSoft, or now Data Cloud. Um, what does that actually mean for, uh, you know, folks that we're engaging with at these organizations? And so that's kind of our way of showing empathy is like we get it. Being a rep at Salesforce is tough. It's especially hard right now. Um, there's turnover of accounts every single year, and so they've only got so much runway to really build relationships with those accounts and. If there's a lot of shifting and they need to be able to lean on somebody internally or externally through partners to help them along that journey. And, um, that's really where we try to lean in and be, you know, active so to speak, with, uh, taking that empathetic approach.
Sam:Man, for anybody who's trying to get into Salesforce ecosystem, like rewind that and listen to it again because
Jason:Absolutely.
Sam:that. Was so spot on, and I think that many people call it Salesforce, any of the large cloud ecosystems, you go partner with them and you're like, well, they're the expert. I'm a fly on the wall. I just gotta like staying with the fly analogy, be annoying and like get their attention. And that has the complete opposite effect. Like I was just having this conversation with somebody the other day and they were being complimentary of us at P F L and that like We can like let down our guard and be cool people to work with because we have more at bats because we're out there like making these relationships day in and day out, and It's not like we know one R v P, we're gonna annoy the, heck out of them until they like bring us into their book of business. That's not the game. The game is to like be consistent, add value every time. And to your point, these Salesforce sellers need help. They need to know what's going on in the industry like, and if you can provide that value and just be available, be a partner, a true partner that's gonna come back in in multiples for you.
Jason:Absolutely. It's the it's the value out value first approach, right? Value breach trust. Trust creates relationships. You know, you take that mindset and you make it valuable to them, and you're providing value, you know, outside of what you're committed to already. Then like, you know, they're gonna start to notice you. and I I wrote this down. I think it's worth, you know, calling out and really, I think personify, like what we do in partnerships is that you said make the time meaningful with a personal aspect
Sam:Mm-hmm.
Jason:that, that's a really, really good summarization of like building purpose built relationships. Right. You know, make it worthwhile, make it meaningful, make it viable. But you know, don't forget the personal aspect and the, the person behind the conversation
Jill Dignan:Yeah.
Jason:It's like, love that. I, I do have a, a, a sort of a follow up question to that. So, you know, it obviously takes time to build these relationships, especially with someone like Salesforce and I think, you know, Jill, you And Sam are probably two of the best at this, getting those relationships and it's a very hard one to crack. So if you can re recall, With all these software years behind us, like as you were getting started at V two, like where did you start in in building those relationships and, and what did you. find was effective? In the, early days,
Jill Dignan:Yeah, that, that's a great, great question. Um, it's probably very different than a lot of other partners. Um, very non-traditional, uh, path, uh, both for the company and, and for my role, um, in all of it. We've been a, a partner for almost 18 years now, um, and a, and a boutique during all those years, of course, and we still are, but, um, we really started, you know, growing from around the 20 person mark for many of those years, just a couple years ago. So we shot up from 20 to close to a hundred very, very quickly, um, really started investing back in the business. You know, we're, we're unique in that, um, being a, you know, a hundred person firm. And not having the PE backing and being completely bootstrapped by our founders, um, is a differentiator for us. Um, and it gives us a lot of flexibility to be creative and, um, do things differently, which I always appreciate. I. But, um, you know, many of those years and even throughout our growth, a lot of our deals were brought in through direct, um, a as many companies start out in the, the Salesforce ecosystem. Um, and we were sort of at a crossroads, uh, I would say at the end of, uh, 2021. Um, we were growing, um, my c e o who had been leading sales on the direct side for many, many years was getting ready to go on sabbatical and had asked me to take on this tour of duty. Uh, moving from more the consulting side, um, and the c o o role to. Overseeing sales and helping scale a sales team while he was on sabbatical and I had no sales background other than working with customers and helping, you know, work to sort of upsell and like increase their Salesforce investment and r o i on that investment I. Um, but I was not a sales person by trade. Um, and, uh, I, I was concerned because I didn't have the relationships at the level that he did as sort of a head of sales for many, many years. And I knew that if I relied purely on a direct strategy, we were never gonna hit our number. So a lot of my focus stepping into the role was, was really taking a look at all of my resources, um, one of those being Salesforce and the Salesforce partnership. And up until that point, again, many years of the business, we had been a registered partner of Salesforce. We definitely kept them apprised of deals that we were working on. We were opportunistic. Um, we had relationships that bore fruit and we were able to bring in some deals through Salesforce over the years. But the vast majority of the work we were doing, the revenue was direct. Um, and so I kind of saw it as we have this untapped. Partnership that we really need to figure out. We've gotta come up with a strategy, we've gotta figure out the tactics. We've gotta find a way to drive more through that channel relationship and what does that really look like, and how do we do it? How do we do it well, and how do we then scale it? Because I'm one person, we don't have the budget right now for an alliance. Manager, Alliance director. So, um, I worked, you know, basically from January, um, of 2022 through last year, um, to build up that partnership. And we went from, I. Honestly, from a reporting standpoint, zero leads coming in through the channel, um, consistently, um, to about 40 to 50 per month, uh, by September of last year, so about a year ago at this time. And, um, it was all through just. You know, agile, uh, scrappy building relationships, uh, in a lot of the traditional ways, um, making sure that we were staying laser focused and not going too far and too wide. And, um, I can definitely share a little bit more about that. But we're really from, from an alliance standpoint, we're really just about, even though we're an 18 year partner, we're about two years into having a formal alliance strategy. And then this year, Just for context, our c e o came back from his, uh, sabbatical and took over sales, um, again, um, and I moved into a role where I get to focus on partnerships full-time as well as marketing. And, um, it's been great. And now we've just opened up budget for an alliance manager who will come in and report to me. So we're really growing, um, the alliance side of the business, but really did not have, you know, I'll call it investment in that until last year.
Jason:So
Sam:Oh, I am blown away by those numbers. That's crazy.
Jason:ask
Jill Dignan:That was our best month. Yeah, that was our best month last year.
Jason:So you did that in in basically like one year, going from zero leads to 40 to 50 a month, and now two years down, you've got the formal strategy established.
Jill Dignan:Absolutely. Yeah. And the, I mean, and those are all sizable, not necessarily all qualified, right? But sizable deals with customers mostly in our wheelhouse. Um, and, uh, and yeah. Um, this year's been a little bit different, um, but our numbers have been really strong and, um, We're, we're doubling down. But it, it's a lot of trial and error too, because I'm new to this, you know, our, our company's new to this. And like I said earlier, it's a, a lot of thinking outside the box and how can we do things differently and stand out. Um, we haven't nailed it. There's, I, I know for a fact there's way more that we could be doing, um, even with the budget that we have. Right. Always, you know, money can kind of. Heal everything. If we get more budget and more people and more, you know, more boots on the ground, we can do more. But even with what we're investing right now, I know we can do more, but it's a lot of trying different things out and, and seeing what works and then doubling down on that.
Jason:Yeah. So as far as like standing out and doing things differently, like what, what are some of the things you feel like you did differently versus what others are doing?
Jill Dignan:Yeah. And I, I'm always happy to share, share things like this.'cause I think, um, everybody's trying to figure it out and I think there's, you know, everyone needs to experiment and try different things that are gonna work for their business for us. Um, as I mentioned earlier, focusing on education and enablement with the core sales teams has been huge. Um, I think also investing time with the. Sales engineering teams at Salesforce. So I think oftentimes we focus on core sales, we focus on co prime relationships that we wanna build, right? Focus on the MuleSoft side or the Tableau side. Um, but the SE teams have been phenomenal partners and a great way to sort of. Like Trojan Horse into opportunities, right? Because if they trust us, you know, these are some of the, the smartest people you know, in on the deal team, right? Or, or the ses. And if we've got their trust, um, from a technology standpoint, they're gonna raise their hand and say, I know a partner that we should be talking to here. So that's been a strategy that's, that's worked really well for us. Um, I think also having a healthy balance across the different Role levels has been important because,
Sam:Yeah.
Jill Dignan:you know, the higher up that you go, while it's important to know those people, um, build relationships with them, um, we found a lot more success really at the R V P level and, um, working with AEs and build literally building relationships brick by brick, one by one, and, um, and then operationalizing it, which has been really helpful as well. I.
Sam:Man, I couldn't agree with more with everything you just said. We've seen the same thing from the ses, like that's where the magic happens for sure.
Jason:that was chuckling because I've, I've heard you talk about that so many times. I'm like, yeah, there. That must be the magic sauce there,
Sam:I was, I just got so happy hearing you.'cause I was like, yay, That's what we're doing too. Um, and the other thing too, I agree completely with like the lar, the higher ups, um, and there's some really interesting titles at Salesforce. It takes a while to like figure out who goes where and who does what. Um, but I think the one thing that could come from those larger You know, higher up relationships is getting in the right room sometimes, and that's, it's important to have those relationships just for that alone. Okay. So I am really nerdy about this and I'm really excited to talk to you about this. You've mentioned this a few times, operationalizing your program, so can you dive into that?'cause I know Jason and I have a lot of questions,
Jason:we're both very nerdy in this regard, so like it's good into good stuff.
Jill Dignan:Oh, I'm so excited to hear I'm now, I'm curious what you guys are doing and um, what you've kind of geeked out on from like a tech and process standpoint. So let's go.
Sam:Yeah, let's do it. Um, yeah, I mean, I'll kick it off here. In terms of like, especially in the Salesforce ecosystem, there's a ton of technology out here That's helping partner people, like um, manage relationships, get the sales teams more involved. Salesforce isn't bought onto them yet, and It might be a while before they are. And so for me personally, we had to build like grassroots within our Salesforce system of like how to track relationships, how to track, what accounts they own, where they are in pipe. and Um, it's been, it's been a game changer for us. but how are you guys managing that?
Jill Dignan:Yeah. Uh, the bulk of it is in Salesforce. We, we don't have p r m or any sort of fancy SKU or anything like that. We're using Sales Cloud and we have You know, some other things we've added onto it, uh, for both our sales team and alliance side as well as our delivery folks. Um, but Salesforce, you know, being a Salesforce partner, we've, we've used Salesforce for many, many years, and. It's really operationalizing as much as possible within that platform. And, um, you know, knowing that our database is sort of gold, right? That every, every way that we track, um, the relationships, the hierarchies, you know, when there's account turnover, Um, at the beginning of the Salesforce fiscal year in February. Um, figuring out how to, uh, keep track of all the reporting structures and, um, all the accounts that people are mapped to and staying on top of that. So we have a process internally for. How we capture that data. And we've got someone on the operation side who helps maintain the database and it's, you know, a big influx beginning of year, as I said, but then a lot of maintenance throughout and um, you know, we do tracking of. You know, the, the level of relationship, like have we ever met with them? Have we been lightly engaged? Have we been heavily engaged? We also keep track of almost like a n p s. We, we don't do any formal surveys or anything like that to Salesforce right now, but, um, we keep track of sort of our perceived, you know, uh, score that they would give us. Right. Are they Uh, are they a detractor? Are they a fan? Are they a super fan? And so we look at all of that data to really figure out where we should be spending energy. And we're working with, uh, c r M analytics right now to build out more of that heat mapping. That's a project that's in progress that I'm hoping to have launched before next year so we can have a visual heat map of sort of our red and green relationships and where to spend the time. I'm, I'm so curious if at P F L, if you guys have already. Matured, something like that with some, you know, really nice dashboards that truly drive your day. We're not quite there yet, but that's the vision
Sam:I freaking love this conversation. Um, yeah, no, it's, we're like in a similar boat, so we have it tracking, like we have a, a, funnel essentially of our, of our Salesforce relationships. Um, and similar, it's like engaged so they know who we are. We've maybe enabled them, and then it goes all the way to matured of, they've given us multiple intros and we're like, really, you know, tight with these AEs. Um, Then we have a marketing team that's actively talking to them based on where they're at in that funnel and on which industry they fall into. So to your point, like this was a hard learning curve for us, but as a horizontal partner, you have to be more specific with your messaging. And not only does that go to industry, but that also goes to that personal relationship. This is where marketing and partnerships, I think need to combine. Because if yours, if you're putting people in a nurture stream and it's like, to see you at Dreamforce. Loved our conversation is like we didn't talk at Dreamforce. Like there goes your relationship. It's really that simple and so you have to be very clear and articulate on, on your personal relationships and maintain them. We still are learning. We still have a lot to go, so we should just like, maybe we should look under the hood together and compare notes after this
Jill Dignan:Absolutely. Yeah. I'm always curious to learn what, what other people are doing and there's some things that we still haven't fully solved for. Right. Which, um, as an example, it, it's, With the account changes that happen every single year. Right. We wanna keep track of the history. Um, but as we're learning, you know, okay, this rep that we worked with last year is now aligned to a completely different set of accounts. We're gonna continue to maintain that relationship. We switch things over in our database and then it becomes tricky because we wanna go back to accounts they may have been assigned to the year before. We're working with a new rep. And we have lost some of that context and then we're digging through to figure that out. So ideally we'd be able to know, okay, this is their focus this year, this is what they were on last year. So we can reference that. I think that a lot of the historical stuff has been challenging for us. Um, and then really, you know, how quickly. Can we bring our sales team up to speed so they can have relevant conversations, um, without having to dig too much into the database to get that information. So we're really, you know, I think we've got the architecture and the infrastructure and the, um, object relationship to kind of keep track of everything. But now it's really about, okay, how do we take that? We're doing a great job tracking it. Um, it's all up to date. It looks great. Uh, we, we use it daily, but how do we make it an easier Workflow, right? How, how can I come in and know this is where I'm gonna spend energy this month? How can our sellers come in and, and have a dashboard or a view that helps them direct how, where, why, when they're gonna spend energy and, and, um, that's kind of that level of maturity we're starting to get to right now, which is really exciting.
Sam:It is so exciting. Go ahead.
Jason:Absolutely. And that that piece of it is like really starting to, to enable and push that data into your field team has always been like my secret sauce.
Jill Dignan:Mm-hmm.
Jason:I'm always the I S V partner with other ISVs or agencies. I haven't really built the, the big, you know, Salesforce partnership like you guys have. So I'm working with like a, an army of other partners and trying to bring my field team into the mix and pushing these workflows, data and enablement. Processes so that they can take the action on themself. Right? That, that's the, the way I've scaled the last two programs is getting the sales team involved in the data, showing them who, who the partners are, which ones to work with, how to do this, and how to begin to prioritize the accounts and, and prospecting into the, the partners customer base. And once we've done that, we've, we've 3, 4, 5 XD the last couple of programs. And that's, that's really kind of where you, you begin to scale.
Jill Dignan:Yeah, absolutely.
Sam:I think that's where the magic happens too. And there is like a going full circle back to our like empathy conversation at the beginning. It's how do you, how do you draw that bridge from like data and Salesforce if Salesforce AE owns this account to salesperson? And that's not just like an email of like, Hey, I know you own this account. Let's get together and talk about It How do we as partner people help bridge that gap from a personal level, um, to, you know, Bring the whole company along and make this a flywheel of, of partnership. And I think that's,
Jill Dignan:Yeah.
Sam:we could have a whole nother podcast on that alone,
Jill Dignan:Uh, I love that concept of the flywheel, um, Sam, and that's that you're like, Nailing like where my brain is right now and what I'm focused on because we've got this small but mighty go to market team. And when I think about go to market, it's our sales team, it's our alliance side, which is me, hopefully one other person soon. And then our marketing, which sits under me and we're this. Really small team, and we're, we're meeting and we're working together very collaboratively and everything is very fluid, um, as you would imagine with a, you know, a boutique where we all have to wear a different hats so everybody has to know what's going on. But that concept of the flywheel, we haven't really gotten that going. It's like we're putting the pieces in place right now to build that. Um, but you know, we, we haven't gotten the flywheel going with, with marketing. You know, we, we started to do some things and then on the sales side, it's not, you know, it's very rigid right now. And, um, I'm hoping, and what we're building towards, I'd love to learn more about what you've done and, and how you've been successful with this is how do you, you know, if you've built it, then how do you get it moving and what are some tactics that you. To get things moving more fluidly, and then as you said, Jason, like, you know, two x three x five x what you're doing, because everyone's, you know, marching in the same direction at the same speed.
Jason:I mean, it's kind of like what we, we preach here at Reveal around like the, a near bound strategy, right? Your, your field teams have the inbound strategy, the outbound strategy, but those teams don't really have a partner strategy, which to, to now we're bringing to market, you know, building out a near bound strategy and how you build effective campaigns around the partner data, the partner motion, and getting the, the marketing and sales teams fully engaged and involved, and having them prioritize partners as a strategic. Offering and campaigns, what we can bring to our, uh, database, right? So how do, how does marketing, you know, run near bound campaigns? How do sales, you know, run their near bound efforts? You know, outbounding with near bound sort of meta think, uh, and being able to generate a third of all revenue, you know, through inbound third of revenue, through outbound, third of revenue through Near Bound, and really beginning to, you know, take you guys' word to create that flywheel and begin to find new streams and avenues of, of revenue.
Sam:It's so timely too. I mean, like I said, Jill and I were at Dreamforce last week. It's like data, data, data, ai, ai. But then how do you add that element of trust and humanization to it? And that's the conversation here. Like, I think partnerships is at a really exciting time because we are starting to have data and we're starting to be able to operationalize it, but we can't lose the foundation of what partnerships is, which is people doing business with people. And that's, that's the gray area right now. But I think it's really, really an exciting time. So speaking of people to people, um, Jill, I read an article that you posted three years ago, in 2020. Um, and it's so dang good. Um, it's, uh, what, what people in their twenties should do to get ahead in their career. And I think it's still relevant for people that are well into their career. But you talked a lot about, um, mentors.
Jill Dignan:Mm-hmm.
Sam:Um, do you, do you personally have mentors and how have you gone about finding them?
Jill Dignan:Yeah, it's a, it's a great question. Um, I, I have a number of mentors, uh, in, in different walks of life and, um, in different places. I mean, our. Our leadership team here, um, we all lean on each other. There's four of us, um, our, our C e O, our c o o and our, uh, chief Experience Officer. And we all lean on each other at different times and, um, I find ways to leverage all of them as mentors and I hope that I can be that for them. Um, when things come up. Um, Uh, even folks at Salesforce, there's, uh, a couple people that I've worked with. Um, one who's actually moved on to, um, a different company, but, um, meeting people through the partner ecosystem is really interesting because, uh, you can find those people that. Um, help you through challenging times at work, right? And, um, challenging situations. And there's no shortage. I mean, there's a lot of rosy aspects to partnership management, but there's also things that we have to navigate, like conflict, um, and when other partners get involved and, um, you know, issues around pricing, right? Where We're trying to scope with integrity and, and put a price in front of a customer that makes sense for what they need. And we're getting undercut by another partner, um, because they don't have the industry or cloud background to scope it. And we know that the customer's gonna end up getting change ordered to death and we're like, Hey, we we're telling you this is what it's gonna cost and we know we're not gonna give you a change order. Um, but we get that pressure back from Salesforce, right? So we're always navigating these challenging. Situations. And I think that's where mentors, you know, and, and especially folks that know the world that you're living in can be so, so valuable. Um, so I've got, I've got a number of folks that I lean on in my personal life, in my work life. Uh, people outside of V two, um, that have been incredible. Um, mentors for me. Um, Brandon, who, you know, Sam, I think, you know, he and I have worked together for a long time and I look to him for mentorship on different things. Um, and I think hopefully he does to me as well, so, Uh, yeah. And I would also say like, I'm sort of a, a student of like studying people and I listen to a lot of podcasts. I read a lot of books just about, um, you know, peak performers. Um, I love autobiographies. I, I love learning about, I. Um, you know how different people have overcome obstacles in, in their life or, uh, line of work. Um, I actually started reading on the way out to Dreamforce this book called Hidden Genius. Um, I don't know if you've heard of it, but this woman, um, I'm gonna botch her name, Paulina. Pomp Lenova, I don't know. You can check that. Um, she, she used to work for, uh, fortune magazine and then she started this website called The Profile. And she essentially looks at peak performers, very similar to like a Tim Ferriss, but she's got a journalism background and she'll, you know, do these write-ups on different peak performers. And so I think even when you're lacking A mentor, right? If you're lacking someone that you can say, okay, this is gonna be like my person that I'm gonna learn from, there's a lot that you can do. Um, You know, uh, media that you can digest to learn more about people and kind of align yourself and ask yourself what's the type of person or professional that I wanna be? And, um, try to understand what they do and emulate that. And so I think there's, it's amazing that we live in the world that we do now, and the technology that's available to us, because you can seek out mentors that maybe you don't even meet directly, but you're learning from people and, and how they're Um, how they're navigating life in their careers, which is really fun for me to do.
Jason:Yeah.
Sam:so we need to have. A dinner party, maybe it has to be virtual or you guys need to come out to Montana because Like
Jason:I want to go to Portsmouth
Jill Dignan:Yes,
Sam:Yeah. Jason's that's been on his list for a while.'cause we need to talk peak performance, we need to talk meditation. There's so many like bullet points here that I want to dig into. So, yeah.
Jason:I, yeah, I definitely found my next book to read. So I'm, I just wrote that one down. Um,
Jill Dignan:It's an easy read. Like it's a fun, like I think I got through 200 pages on the plane and I was doing work too, so it's.
Jason:Nice. Those are my favorites. I am, I am curious, um, for, for those that are looking for that actual mentor, maybe they're younger in their career, like, do you have any tips of how to, um, engage someone to be your mentor and how to continue keeping them engaged?
Jill Dignan:Yeah, I mean I think it's, it's really, um, before engaging someone, I think it just starts with trying to figure out, I. Who you are and what you want. And that's a really difficult question for younger people to answer. And I, I still don't know what I wanna do five or 10 years from now. I have. Some ideas, but um, an easier exercise to go through is really thinking about like, what would a perfect day look like? Uh, and, and assume like you, you know, you haven't, I know a lot of people fantasize about winning the lottery and then there, you know, I don't have to work another day in my life, but, um, I like to think if I, if I did win the lottery, I would still work. Um, you know, but I think you have to think about what a perfect day would look like. What would that work? Um, look like integrated with life. And is there anyone in your orbit that is already kind of leading, doing, you know, uh, experiencing, um, experiencing that, that you can sort of. Look up to. And, um, I think it's as simple. I mean, it's, it's harder in, in more remote environment, but if, certainly if you're nearby someone, it's getting together for a coffee and just having a conversation, um, staying in touch over text, um, if it's someone you don't know, you know, reaching out. Um, I know I've done this myself. Uh, I've reached out to people on LinkedIn in the past and said, Hey, you know, I noticed we had this in common, or you know, you're finding that common thread and um, just, you know, saying, Hey, could we sit down and chat? I'd love to learn more about your background and how you got to the point that you got to. How, what, how do you define a success and how have you become, um, successful? And, um, I think it's like anything else, like relationships need. Uh, you know, they need to be fed to mature. And so, um, everything starts with a conversation and you've gotta just continue to make those investments and, um, I think good things will come from it.
Jason:Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And it's, I think it's, you know, look for those people that are, you know, doing the things that you want to do. At the level you want to do it, you know, to your point, you know, don't be afraid to reach out. Like make the ask, you know, people are always willing to help other good people. And then to kind of pull from the reference earlier is like, make the time meaningful. And one very early in my career as an intern, uh, I had some, some bosses hook me up with some people that are doing really big stuff in the space. I was working at the time and they told me one thing that I never forgot. It's like when you meet with these guys, you know, always be prepared.
Jill Dignan:Mm-hmm.
Jason:Be prepared to ask the questions, get the answers you want to know, you know, have a purposeful discussion, you know, to, to use your term, like make the time meaningful with a personal aspect. And, uh, never forgot that anytime that I'm talking with a mentor, having a mentor, like not just showing up without a blank sheet of paper right. And kind of having some things that I want to cover and talk about if they're truly in that mentor seat. And I feel like I'm getting, you know, Min Mented meant to read. What is it? I don't know.
Sam:That's right.
Jason:You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So, yeah, don't be afraid to reach out. Don't be afraid to make the ask.
Sam:Okay, so truly Jill, we're gonna have to talk again'cause I could keep talking to you forever, but we are,
Jason:I really do like Portsmouth, Portland. That whole area is like the top of my like travel bucket list. My bucket list isn't very extravagant'cause I love traveling the States but never been to the northeast and really wanna get over there. So, I mean, like,
Sam:he's not lying. He's been talking about it. Yeah. I mean, we're going on six years of him talking about it. So
Jill Dignan:Yeah, you definitely should. And I would, I would actually say, I used to tell people, yeah, you can just fly into Boston and then drive up and I mean, if you've never been to Boston, definitely do it. But I would definitely recommend, like if you can fly into Portland and then come down the coast, that's I. Um, Portland's just an amazing city and, uh, there's so many good things along the way coming down the coast, uh, south. So
Jason:yeah.
Jill Dignan:of good stuff out here.
Jason:Sorry to interrupt,
Sam:right. well, we'll, we'll plan our trip Um, okay, so we always like to end the podcast with a little bit of a not so business question, and in full transparency to you and our listeners if we had something else planned. but then you started talking about books. So I'm gonna merge two questions together. Um, so you are, deserted on a desert island.
Jill Dignan:Oh my
Sam:You have two, you can choose two books that you bring with you, one business,'cause you're obviously running a business from this island. Um, and the other is personal. Which books are you choosing?
Jill Dignan:Oh my goodness. Oh, okay. So I've never been asked this question clearly. Um, that's.
Sam:I.
Jill Dignan:really tough. Um, gosh. I mean, I think from a, I think I'd honestly, I'd wanna take a gamble and bring something new. I know that's not I, I'll, I'll think of something that I would bring, but I. I, I am not someone who rereads books. Like if I read a book, it, it sticks with me. And then if I wanna reference back to it, like, I am going on Reddit, I'm going on on, you know, Googling different things to kind of pull up experts. Yeah. Good reads or things like that. Um,
Sam:okay, Then let's rephrase this. Your friend is deserted on a desert island. Which books are you recommending?
Jill Dignan:All right. Um, there is, uh, well first of all, I am a big Tim Ferriss fan. Um, I don't know if you guys listen
Sam:We are.
Jill Dignan:class or read some of the books. Um, I know he's really famous for the four hour work week, um, which coincidentally I think has like a little island.
Jason:on the cover. Yeah.
Jill Dignan:So that might be interesting, but I think Tribe of Mentors is one of his newer ones that I would. I think it would be interesting, and I, why I like that one is it's, uh, very similar to talking about that other book, hidden Ingenious earlier. It's different profiles of, uh, those peak performers, right. Um, Jocko and David Goggins and, uh, Warren Buffett and, and all of that. So, um, I would definitely recommend that. Um, in terms of a non, I'm trying to think of the last time I read something that was, Fiction. Um, I do a lot of reading of, of nonfiction, um, and a lot of business books and performance books. Um,
Sam:I dunno. I feel like Tim Ferris can like
Jill Dignan:Aurelius, like something, you know, going back to like the stoics or something. Like meditations. Let's go with that. We're gonna go with meditations.
Sam:Nice. I love
Jason:you sane while you're deserted.
Sam:Yeah.
Jill Dignan:Yes,.It's
Sam:You're not being very empathetic with your friend. Good luck out there. Here's some books,
Jason:keep your witts about you.
Sam:Jill, this has been tremendous. Thank you so much for the time. Um, really great to see you last week, apparently, we're, we have a trip in our future. Um, thank you for your time today and for, you know, all your feedback to the, to the community, um, and being just like an awesome woman in the space. So truly appreciate your time.
Jill Dignan:Well back at you and thank you so much and this was a lot of fun. I would be excited to do it again and, um, can't wait to see all the, the success for you guys with this in the future. So best of luck.
Sam:Thank you friends. We're back on the schedule. Sorry for the delay. Um, we're so excited to be here and we'll talk to you next time. Thanks everybody.