22: Building Revenue-Generating Partnerships Through Ecosystem Marketplaces - Cody Sunkel

Cody Sunkel, co-founder of Partner Fleet, joins Sam and Jason to discuss the value of ecosystem marketplaces and the challenges of building one. He emphasizes the importance of creating a lovable product that solves a big problem and provides a seamless user experience. 

Cody also highlights the role of partnerships in driving value and how marketplaces can be integrated into marketing and sales strategies. He shares his personal journey from the fitness world to the tech industry and the impact of physical health on mental well-being and overall performance.

**Key Takeaways:**

- Partner Fleet is an ecosystem marketplace platform that allows companies to build and scale their partner programs without the need for extensive development.
- A marketplace can be a valuable tool for promoting partners and generating leads in a hands-off way.
- Integrations are a top consideration for buyers in the SaaS industry, making a marketplace a valuable asset for companies.
- Building a foundation and establishing relationships are crucial in partnerships to ensure long-term success.
- Prioritizing physical health can have a positive impact on mental health and overall well-being.

**Quotes:**

- "Valuable is not enough. Your product needs to be lovable." - Cody Sunkel
- "You can have a user base that, if you have an integration, they're going to adopt it no matter what because it's that high in demand." - Cody Sunkel
- "Partnerships are more relational in nature, but you can have a user base that will adopt an integration because it adds value." - Cody Sunkel
- "Partnerships go beyond just the relationship aspect. It's about all the points of influence that impact a buyer or customer." - Cody Sunkel

**Chapters**:
00:06:34 Partner fleet is an ecosystem marketplace platform.
00:09:21 Creating shared vision
00:17:11 Big problem solved with simple, out-of-box approach.
00:20:19 Ecosystems, partnerships, influence, reviews, social proof, value
00:24:10 Marketplace revenue activities can be interconnected strategically.
00:33:44 Got into gymnastics strength training after quitting diving.
00:38:16 Foundation needed for injury-free CrossFit training.
00:41:41 Spot-on advice for a successful partnership.
00:45:59 "Just start. Physical health impacts everything."
00:50:25 Prioritize recreation over work for balance.

Transcript

0:11

Welcome to the Friends with Benefits podcast, a business podcast about revenue generating partnerships, not a podcast about business time with friends. We're your co hosting couple. I'm Jason. And I'm Sam. Welcome to the show, friends.

Sam Yarborough: 0:25

Hey, hey! Welcome home. You've been gone for a minute.

Jason Yarborough: 0:30

Yeah, it's good to be back. I've, uh, been down in Dallas. For those wondering where I've been. Probably not, but I was at the, uh, Sixth Sense Breakthrough user conference. Fantastic show if you haven't been.

Sam Yarborough: 0:41

Brought back a nice cold, gave it to me.

Jason Yarborough: 0:43

Thank you. I think our kids gave me that before I left, and then the travel just accentuated it. Yeah, I'm feeling fine though. I'm not. Sorry that it was passed along. It's just one of those things. You

Sam Yarborough: 0:55

also brought back a really nice bag of swag for the kids though. Yes. Like a

Jason Yarborough: 0:59

whole bag. A whole bag. It was interesting. The uh, the swag of choice, the swag du jour of events has changed. Everybody's passing out stuffies now. I brought back like five stuffies. That's

Sam Yarborough: 1:09

really beneficial when you have a two year old and a four year old.

Jason Yarborough: 1:11

Yeah, you don't have to go buy any surprises. Just bring them home. So anyway, let's talk about today's guest. Yeah. Who do we have? I think it was great. It was fun because not only is Cody Sunkle a good friend of ours and kind of a neighbor for now, but he's a very much in line with kind of what we believe and how we operate as a person, if I can use that terminology. As a people. As a people. Yeah. He's great. I mean, he's got a little startup called Partner Fleet, which I think is fantastic. Really great, uh, partner marketplace, directory kind of thing, but more than that, he's really into, you know, peak performance and what drives. Humans and drives individuals and really focuses on his self, his body, and he's kind of a freak of nature, wouldn't you say?

Sam Yarborough: 1:56

Um, undeniably so, and I think one of the most exciting things for me in this episode was We've had Cody and his wife and his brand new baby, who he likes to refer to as a legend, over for dinner, and I still, I had no idea. So it just goes to show that you would never really know a person until you truly dig in. So I hope you enjoyed today's episode with Mr. Cody Sunkle. Uh, Cody, thanks for joining us. Thanks for staying with us in Bozeman for a while. We'll miss you. Welcome to the show friends. Doo

Jason Yarborough: 2:33

doo doo doo doo. Mr. Cody Sunkle from down the street, welcome to the show!

Cody Sunkel: 2:38

Thank you, sir.

Sam Yarborough: 2:40

It's our first, yeah, three people in Bozeman. We're growing up. We're a tech hub.

Jason Yarborough: 2:46

We are A Tech, uh, we have our first Bozeman guest. For those who aren't familiar, Sam and I live in Bozeman, Montana. Cody Sunkle, today's guest, also lives in Bozeman, Montana. What, like a mile and a half down the road?

Cody Sunkel: 2:57

Yeah, I think if I stand up right now, I could probably see your house.

Jason Yarborough: 3:01

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, hello! Uh, we've tried to...

Sam Yarborough: 3:04

this as our partner leaders chapter meeting.

Jason Yarborough: 3:07

Yeah, you guys, partnership leaders, you guys hear that? This is our chapter meeting. We tried to do it in person, but it, uh, I wasn't technically prepared to record in person at my kitchen table. So, here we are!

Cody Sunkel: 3:18

all right. We're gonna have fun anyway.

Jason Yarborough: 3:20

Yeah, this is fantastic. Appreciate you joining us today and taking some time.

Cody Sunkel: 3:24

Likewise.

Jason Yarborough: 3:25

jumping right into the fun stuff. Tell us who Cody Sunkle is outside of the day job, before we talk about the day job.

Cody Sunkel: 3:35

All right. Uh, big question for sure. You know, uh, and I thought about this a little bit. So I think like the people who know me best would characterize me as like, Being obsessed with things like having these waves of obsession where I just like, cannot think about anything else. Um, so I end up going really deep on. You know, whatever I'm interested in at the time, um, you know, a couple of themes in my life outside of work have been, uh, movement. So, you know, physically, like I have a lot of hobbies, um, from, I was like a springboard diver. Um, I love to mountain bike, you know, I love to. Dabble with other things like parkour and capoeira and like kind of fringe stuff um, and I just try to live like a lifestyle that um, You know has I'm able to enjoy myself every single day, right? I'm also big on family. Got a wife, Erica, and, uh, recently had a kid. He's four months old. His name is Wiley. Little

Jason Yarborough: 4:41

Cute little kid, by the way. Yeah,

Cody Sunkel: 4:43

Yeah. Thank you.

Sam Yarborough: 4:43

Lil legend.

Cody Sunkel: 4:46

And, uh, I got a golden retriever Cooper.

Jason Yarborough: 4:50

That's awesome, man. Now, we've, being in Bozeman, we've had a chance to hang out a few times, and I can confirm that all those things are accurate and true. Uh, and we'll talk about it a bit later, but you're, you're somewhat of a freak of nature in the fitness world. And, uh, we'll get to that, hopefully. But, what, um,

Cody Sunkel: 5:08

up though. Now we'll see, like we

Sam Yarborough: 5:09

I don't know. I think, I think legends is genetic. So once, once a legend, always a legend.

Jason Yarborough: 5:17

I was gonna say welcome to parenthood, but yeah, you know, who can, we can go, once in a lifetime.

Sam Yarborough: 5:21

too.

Cody Sunkel: 5:22

Uh,

Jason Yarborough: 5:22

What is it, what is it that, that you're kind of obsessed with right now?

Cody Sunkel: 5:26

uh, honestly, right now, um, I have, so I have a camper van. I'm actually moving. I've got a lot going on in my life, but, uh, the camper van is only a two seater. And so I need to, now that I have a kid, I need to upgrade to something with more seats. So I'm obsessing over truck campers right now. Um, so it's, it's that and mountain biking, uh, I'm lucky to live right next to my favorite mountain bike trail. Inexistence, Leverage Canyon, uh, and Bozeman. And so I can pedal out from my front door and go ride. And it's been raining a lot here, which is actually great for the trails. Um, the dirt just gets so tacky and, and fun to ride. Um, so I would say those are the two things on my mind right now.

Jason Yarborough: 6:11

That's awesome.

Sam Yarborough: 6:13

There was snow on top of those mountains this morning.

Cody Sunkel: 6:16

Yeah, it's still there. I can see it right now.

Jason Yarborough: 6:19

Welcome.

Sam Yarborough: 6:20

Okay. So

Jason Yarborough: 6:20

here just in time.

Sam Yarborough: 6:22

yeah, and moving, moving to California, uh, for those of you that don't know Cody, um, or maybe what he does for a day job, Cody, can you tell us what partner fleet is?

Cody Sunkel: 6:34

Yeah, definitely. Um, so partner fleet is an ecosystem marketplace platform. Um, so, you know, if you think about like the big marketplaces that are out there in the SAS world, like the Salesforce app exchange, uh, the HubSpot marketplace, even like AWS marketplace and the hyperscalers, those were all built in house, um, requiring massive development efforts to make that, like to bring them to fruition. Right. So we kind of. Like my co founder and I, Kenny Brown, um, you know, we saw the opportunity for this when we were in partnerships ourselves, we were leading teams. Um, we're trying to figure out how to scale our programs. And we recognize that there was a massive gap in terms of, um, you know, productized solutions available to us to be able to run that marketplace play and power an entire ecosystem of partners. And so Kenny had the, had the idea to go build this, um, you know, his background. He was the. First engineering hire at G2. So G2 is a marketplace essentially of like a hundred thousand SAS listings, right? Or software listings. And, uh, so you got really good background and understanding about marketplaces. And, um, so he went out and built the platform and, you know, And that was after we worked together at our previous company. And so essentially that's what we're trying to do is plug that gap that's in the market and give sort of democratized, um, the ability to, you know, have an ecosystem marketplace without having to sink in. millions of dollars and, and years of development on it.

Jason Yarborough: 8:09

Let's, let's dig into that gap a little bit more. I've, I've been in the space and used some of these before. Like what gaps specifically did you guys see and what gaps were you learning about in the market?

Cody Sunkel: 8:23

Yeah. So at the time, um, you know, Kenny and I were at a company called Daxco, which was comprised of like 11 different brands, five core platforms, um, in the gym management software space and fitness tech. And so I was primarily, um, with the brand called Zen planner is SMB brand, you know, we're supporting CrossFit boxes or CrossFit gyms, um, yoga studios, martial arts academies, all of that. And I was doing partnerships with gym affiliations and martial arts affiliations and franchises and consulting groups primarily. So they became, you know, solutions partners for us, but also just major referral, um, channels. And then Kenny was hired to like, you know, build out our tech partner ecosystem, right? So he was on a different side of the business, but we kind of saw each other from across the way and said, Hey. We're both doing partnerships. We should do this together instead of separate. What do we need? Like what's the vision? So we kind of created this shared vision and then we, we recognize the gap of technology available to us. We were trying to kind of duct tape the existing tools together that, um, we already had subscribed to at Daxco and do that whole thing that like. Pretty much every partnership professional has to do at some point, um, up to this point. Right. And so we, we ended up coming up with like a big RFP with all the checklist items that we wanted. Based on user stories and just things that we needed to accomplish within our program. And we took that out to all the PRMs and all the available partner tech and, and, you know, take the boxes that were available to us at the time. And honestly, like as more of a channel guy, side of the RFP had a lot of check marks. Um, there are some good PRMs out there. There was account mapping was like coming of age during that time. And, but then when you look at tech partnerships and you look at marketplace capabilities. I mean, literally we couldn't find anything and, you know, so Kenny ended up building a marketplace for Daxco like on nights and weekends being an engineer. He's like, I'll try to do it myself. And, you know, it was kind of a side project for him and ended up launching as a Daxco exchange, which was great. Um, but then he obviously knew that like other companies need that, right? So that's the gap that we're trying to plug.

Jason Yarborough: 10:49

love it. So kind of went from idea internally, which is kind of always the best way to start building something right to now launching and scaling this company, this company. So like it was, was there a particular moment where you guys were like, let's do this. Let's go all in. And so I remember When Cody decided to leave and go start it or sorry Kenny decided to leave and go start it and I was like hey I got this idea and I was like, okay cool. So like what was the moment where you both were like? Yeah This is it. We're let's leave our bit guard our day jobs or safety nets and go start this thing.

Cody Sunkel: 11:27

Well, I mean, honestly, like I went on a sabbatical at Daxco because I was there for a long time. I got a sabbatical and, um, I came back to a message from Kenny. Hey man, uh, sorry to let you know this, but I'm actually leaving Daxco, like, my last day is blah blah blah. And I was like, Kenny, no! Don't do this to me, man, we had something good going. Um, so, he didn't even tell me what he was going to do for like, 6, 7, 8 months, something like that. So he, he got the product built to a point where I think he was, um, happy to socialize it with a few people. And he, uh, you know, and I told him like, Hey, if there's ever an opportunity to work together again, I would love to, you know, like, it's been great working with you. He's super smart. Got the same vision. So, um, you know, we reconnected, he told me what he was doing and, and I was excited because I knew the need was there. I had always had this entrepreneurial itch and, uh. And, you know, I, I just never knew what that jumping off point would be for me from an entrepreneurial standpoint. And it seemed like a perfect, uh, opportunity. And so once he kind of like gave me the rundown, I was bought in quickly, but I had some more, I had some more things to wrap up at Daxco that I was working on. I had just gotten promoted. It was kind of a weird time, um, to just jump ship, uh, but you know, it was worth doing and I'm glad I did it. It's been awesome.

Sam Yarborough: 12:53

Okay, so you've been at it for two years now? Is that

Cody Sunkel: 12:57

Yep, mm hmm.

Sam Yarborough: 13:00

So knowing what you know now, what have been some of the biggest challenges of startup life, and what do you wish you would have known before you started?

Cody Sunkel: 13:10

Yeah, I mean the cool thing is that we knew the problem pretty intimately, right? But like You know when I joined the plan was like we're immediately selling and we're selling a product that's like Beta state, you know MVP state And so, and I was used to selling a product that wasn't fully baked, to be honest, like I was selling a franchise

Sam Yarborough: 13:33

Aren't we all?

Cody Sunkel: 13:35

that like, you know, that didn't exist. Right. And we were, we were selling that, um, building on the fly, but that's always a hard thing to do. Um, and, and you're, you're making a leap of faith as well. So a big part of it for me, a challenge early on, like I knew the problem, I knew the people being in partnerships. But I didn't know if I was cut out for being a SaaS founder and what all would, uh, would that entail? Um, so I think that was a big hurdle, you know, talking to our investors, trying to get early adopters on board and actually have them pay us and not just like give it away and get feedback and stuff. So we were charging from day one. Um, and then, you know, honestly, like, as, as we matured and probably a lot of the listeners, uh. Of this podcast are going to be familiar. I mean, partnerships really doesn't have budget. You're, you're pitching for budget all the time. So for us, you know, like, uh, it ended up being a thing where the, the champions that we're working with at the companies that are excited about launching a marketplace and all that, they have to go get budget, um, for their, you know, for the program, and then they have to socialize it with their, you know, their marketing team and their product team and all of that. So sort of decision by committee. Um, and those were cruxes for us and still are to be honest, like, especially in the 2023 landscape. It's still a challenge.

Sam Yarborough: 15:04

That was going to be one of my questions to you of like who is your typical buyer because obviously partner people see the value in this, but you just said it, the budget is hard to come by, so it really is, you know, I'm assuming building those partnerships with marketing and here's how you're going to get more leads. Here's how you're going to get more product, um, you know, integrations and whatnot. So interesting.

Jason Yarborough: 15:28

you've

Cody Sunkel: 15:29

true.

Jason Yarborough: 15:31

Kind of mentioned something prior to, to recording, um, as we were going through some stuff, but you, you said, can we build something lovable? I want to kind of expand on that a little bit as like, as, as a, as a startup, as someone who's thinking about the, the product first and actually trying to, to sell something new. Like, what is, what does that look like, you know, from, from you guys perspective and really trying to be focused on building something lovable? Um, Hey, I love that, that language, that verbiage. Like, how do you guys think about that? How do you wake up in the mornings and say, Alright, how do we build something lovable, and how do you put that into action?

Cody Sunkel: 16:11

Totally. Yeah. Initially I said, I said valuable, but then I changed it to lovable because valuables not enough, right? Like if you're going to build a SAS company that can scale, um, and that can drive network effects and word of mouth and all of that, it has to be lovable. And so what that means to me is first and foremost, it's solving a big problem that people have. Um, cause you can be, to be honest, like you can have a overall poor user experience, but solve a big problem and people are going to deal with, um, inconvenience. Think about Salesforce, right? Like does anyone actually love to use Salesforce? I don't know.

Sam Yarborough: 16:49

do

Cody Sunkel: 16:49

Uh, okay. Fair enough. Yes, Sam. I'm sorry. I mean, here's the deal though. It's, it's the most valuable. Uh, CRM it's out there because it solves really big problems. So, you know, I got to a point where I liked to use Salesforce also, um, but the, uh, you know, the user experience is still a little challenging. And so first and foremost is like, let's solve a big problem. But then it's, it's focused on, um, you know, for us, like we have a bunch of different stakeholders that use the product. So we have the, um, you know, the, our customers who they stand up the marketplace, they configure it, all of that stuff. So we want those flows to be. Simple, easy, um, a big part of our whole like approach is that we want everything to be out of the box because the incumbents, uh, competitors is very like professional service, very, um, customization focused and ours is meant to be out of the box. So that's a big factor. And then we also have the partners who log into the system, like they don't get. The benefit of us, like holding their hand through the process. So that whole workflow has to be super simple, easy, like no additional support needed. Um, and then ultimately you have the end customer that's going in there, discovering integrations, discovering partners, um, to work with. So they need a seamless discovery experience and they need the ability to connect. Um, whether that's install an integration, whether that's, you know, connect with a partner directly, schedule a meeting with their team, those whole workflows and, and actions that need to be taken should be very, uh, simple. And I think if you kind of like, have all of those components, then, uh, you know, you're on the path toward lovable.

Sam Yarborough: 18:41

on the path to lovable. So you kind of just talked about this, but, um, Well, twofold. So on this podcast, we like to talk about the value of relationships and how that builds into partnerships. So, um, we did a bunch of research. You guys have some pretty great blogs. So if you want to know more about Marketplace, check out the partner feed blog. They have a lot of great stuff. But one of them said, It's a hands off way to continually promote your partners. Um, and to leads who are looking to buy. So essentially it's like a Rolodex of integrations and partners. So I want to dive into this really quickly because, um, we all know and love Justin Zimmerman and I think he coined the phrase that integrations don't equal partnerships. So I want to hear your opinion on how you see having a directory of integrations couples with actually having like a partner strategy and the relational side of Building those partnerships out.

Cody Sunkel: 19:44

Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with Justin. Um, here's the thing. I don't think you need partnerships to have an ecosystem either. Like, I think partnerships are more. Um, relational in nature. However, like you can have a user base that if you have an integration, they're going to adopt it no matter what, because it's, it's that high of demand. It's going to add that much value. So you can have like a no touch relationship essentially, that is going to value every, every side of this, both of the partners, um, and the end user. And, and the other thing is like. I think ecosystem goes beyond partnerships because I think of it as all the the little points of influence that impact a buyer or a customer a lot of times and And honestly, like I don't know if the majority of those points of influence are via partnerships I think a lot of those points of influence have opportunity to become partnerships and strengthen the level of influence that is, that they're driving for your brand. Um, but if you think about like reviews are part of it and like, and you know, third party social proof and stuff like that. Um, I think that's all part of the equation. And so being like more of a revenue executive, I guess it's not solely focused on partnerships. I try to look at all those points of influence and I consider that the ecosystem. But then I think of like partnerships and the relationship aspect of a layer on top that can drive a ton of extra value and help, um, help, you know, when people lean into the partnership more is really when like the magic is created and you start to create reciprocity and, you know, you start to create this like really impactful flywheel that can be ultimately transformative for the business. And so like, you know, being someone who focuses on marketplaces, a lot of that is self service and no touch because you're dealing with long tail partnerships and big ecosystems where you couldn't possibly have a relationship with everyone. And so there's this kind of like balance of art and science that needs to take place. And I actually think that we're in this, um, in this pivotal point in time where, you know, traditionally partnerships has been. More of an art and now we're, we're introducing science because we have better tools, you know, we have better automation, like we have best practices and things like that. Um, so that's sort of my take on it.

Sam Yarborough: 22:16

I love where you just went there. The art and science concept. I think it's so true. And I think that there's a time and a place for both. And I think as an industry, we're figuring that out. I mean, with what you're building with what Rob's building with super glue, it's like, how do we bring in the automation while not losing the human element of this? Um, and then to your point too, I think, what do, what do we call it? The dark funnel. Is that right? Did I just make that up? Or is that true? Um,

Jason Yarborough: 22:43

funnel, dark social.

Sam Yarborough: 22:44

There's so much going on behind the scenes with these buyers that it's impossible to get like a full Perspective on that but you have to be there in all of these places

Cody Sunkel: 22:57

Agreed.

Jason Yarborough: 22:57

Yeah, 100%. You're totally right, it's been an art. Right. But now we're starting to see the, the scientists move in. And I think, uh, what's his name? Tyler from partner stack calls it, you know, math people are moving in, right. To the, to the role and they starting to get it and drive it forward from like the data and the, you know, the science side of the house. Um, so it's, it's, it's grow our, our little, uh, world of partnerships is growing up, it's becoming a little bit more mature and you made a good point. That's what I want to kind of dig into is like, you know, how this becomes a flywheel that's impactful to the business. Right, getting more to the, to the science side of the house and you're actually being more strategic in how you're building your program and instituting a marketplace is one of those moves that becomes more of a, you know, a front and center play. I think I read somewhere, maybe it was from Suneer, maybe you, I can't remember anymore, but, uh, your, your marketplace is most often a top three visited page within your, your website. Right? So if that's the case, like, how are you... How are you seeing the best in the business utilizing a marketplace to really drive impact to the business, whether it be from the sales side of the house or the marketing side of the house?

Cody Sunkel: 24:10

yeah. And I think the, the overarching theme here is that you can use, you can string your marketplace through all of your revenue activities. Like if, if you're, you know, looking at it from a marketing standpoint. Um, let's say you have a marketplace that has 200 listings in it partners. Uh, you know, it could be solutions, partners, it could be integrations, et cetera, but those are all pages to promote yourself and your partners equally, right? And so, um, the smart companies will have an evergreen. Like marketing strategy essentially for their marketplace and they string it into like all the marketing that they do. So I saw sales loft the other day, you know, they're launching a new product called Rhythm. Um, and a big part of that is the integrations that they have with like, you know, vidyard and, and some of these other, um, strategic partners for them. And so they're going to market together and they're, they're sending traffic to their partner listings in their marketplace. That's obviously, you know, that we're powering, but they've configured, they've added all the content. Um, and so they drive massive traffic to their marketplace. I'm blown away. They're also driving conversions. Um, and so that could be a conversion for. You know them like sales loft or it could be a conversion for their partner And the cool thing is you can you can drive like reciprocity from that because if you have this evergreen Marketplace marketing playbook you're continuing to drive traffic there. You're you're creating value for your partners They even though you're not doing direct partner marketing campaigns with them Every time, right? You are still driving traffic their way. You're driving leads and business for them. So they're like, Hey, this is working. Let's lean in more. And then you start getting that reciprocity flywheel going

Jason Yarborough: 26:14

How are you seeing them drive traffic to those pages? Like, is there anything in particular that they're doing differently in the market?

Cody Sunkel: 26:21

Yeah. So I think, um, a lot of times, like people just stand up a marketplace, link to it on their website, and then just continuously drive traffic to their website, which can also work because like integrations are a top three buyer consideration in SAS now. And so it's one of the things that people are most interested in. So just driving people to your homepage, honestly, on your marketing site is like. A viable way to, you know, to drive traffic to your marketplace ultimately. But I think when people go further, it's like, um, are you, when you do co marketing. Uh, activities like webinars, uh, guest blogs, things like that. Are you then, you know, sending that, uh, traffic and audience to the listing pages within the marketplace and they can see the Better Together stories there and that can be really exciting for the visitor. Um, I saw a sales off the other day. They were promoting their Vidyard partnership on LinkedIn as well. And um, Um, so it's basically all the standard marketing activities that you would do anyway, but just utilizing the marketplace pages, um, you know, as kind of that landing spot for the traffic

Sam Yarborough: 27:32

I'm curious how much of your sales pitch and if you don't want to get into it here, you don't have to but Like what I'm hearing here is it's funny. All these conversations are coming together It's like partnerships are often siloed from marketing and sales But the way you're approaching marketplace And the way we should all be approaching partnerships is it makes everything better, even like your marketing campaigns. It can create more streamlined leads for your sales teams to follow up on. So in a way, you're helping partner teams like become more integrated with the org through your marketplaces. Is that something you actually go to market with?

Cody Sunkel: 28:14

for sure. For sure. Like we have, uh, you know, because, okay, so it's really weird. I'm about to publish, um, with our head of marketing, Kelsey Johnson, a blog about like how you monetize your marketplace. And there are so many different options and ways that marketplaces drive value. It makes it challenging to be honest, but it's also the reason why marketplaces are so valuable because every team in the business can benefit from a marketplace sales. It becomes sales enablement marketing. It becomes a really strong, you know, marketing asset, customer success. They're driving. Adoption of integrations and partners. It makes them stickier. It makes them easy to renew product gets, you know, increased adoption as well. So like, if you look at our ROI calculator, it's, it's really complex. And, um, it does mean that partnerships gets involved with all of those other teams to show them how they can help drive value for their teams and help them hit their KPIs. But honestly, like. The CMO, the Chief Product Officer nowadays, is mostly the one who's signing off on the marketplace.

Sam Yarborough: 29:25

Mm hmm. I'm not surprised by that. There's no more of this sales team going, who's our partner again? Mm hmm.

Jason Yarborough: 29:33

No excuses. Also, too, I think, like, for those marketplaces to be as effective as possible, it requires, you know, the partner team to do their job of, like, being super well connected to the teams that are actually using it. Uh, funny story, when I was at Drift, like, we, we changed, we swapped out the marketplace, and we put up a new website, went with a new vendor, um, this was pre partner fleet days, um, and we were down for about, uh, A week we'll call it and the sales team was in an uproar about where's the marketplace and shame on me. I had no clue that the sales team was actually using that in their, their pitches within their emails. Like no one ever communicated to me that we actually use this. I just thought it was a site that nobody used. So after that I was like, okay, well we're actually doing something here. So let's think about how we can drive more traffic to it. You know, so once we got the new page up and running. We immediately got in with marketing. It's like, Hey, how are you guys using this? If sales is using it this way and marketing wasn't even thinking about it at all. So it became, to your point, like a good opportunity to add to the flywheel that I was building. And we started running these ABM campaigns. We, you know, built up better, uh, pages with our partner within that marketplace and became a really good opportunity to drive traffic to measure that traffic and put, you know, specific chatbots on those pages as well to engage that traffic that was landing on that site. So seeing it firsthand, how it becomes a great flywheel and, you know, can't encourage that enough, you know, to, to use those pages and, you know, work with someone like yourself is, you know, monitoring and providing that level of traffic and insights to those pages and being able to build on top of it. So it's a, it's a good play I've done. Right. Requires collaboration though. So

Cody Sunkel: 31:15

you've got a good experience there and appreciate the kind words.

Jason Yarborough: 31:18

Yeah, man, I like what you guys are doing. So happy to support. Um, let's, let's go back to Cody's uncle a little bit. I want to, I want to know a little bit more about like, you know, all these obsessions that have led to career paths. I feel like you and I are very similar in this regard. I always joke that I've had four careers because I also get very obsessed with what I'm working on and doing. But talk to me about your career path of like what's led you up to. Um, now co founder, VP of growth at partner fleet.

Cody Sunkel: 31:48

Yeah. I feel like I took a little bit of a roundabout, uh, way into my career, right? Like, I honestly was apprehensive about getting into the business world. Um, you know, I was kind of like... anti corporate, uh, in a pretty big way when I was growing up. And, um, I, I ended up, so I studied at Cal, uh, and I was like interested in business, but didn't really want to do the normal business thing. And so I ended up creating sort of my own focus, um, for my major, which was all about like social entrepreneurship and benefit corporations. So if you think about like a benefit corporation is A company that exists, um, to, you know, create profits. Sure. But. Also to create some sort of impact, some social impact, environmental impact, like some benefit that's outside of just making money. I was very drawn to that idea. One of my inspirations early on was Yvon Chouinard, uh, Patagonia guy. He had, he had a book out there, Let My People Go Surfing. I read that thing in college and I was like, wow, this is, he, he, it's awesome. I would recommend it if you, you know, if you want more than just a career to make money. Um, but it's Why are we in business? You know, let's do something more than, than that. And, uh, and he kind of coined this term, like the reluctant businessman, I think. I mean, that just resonated for me. So I wrote my thesis on that.

Sam Yarborough: 33:16

me.

Jason Yarborough: 33:17

You wrote your thesis on it. I love it.

Cody Sunkel: 33:20

Yeah. I wrote, you know, on that. And, um, and I had done some tech internships, um, in San Francisco through college. I was also a springboard diver. Um, I didn't, you know, I was like washed up before I even started. Honestly, I like got into college red shirted one year and then quit. Um,

Sam Yarborough: 33:38

what you did in college. So we're not just talking like hobby at the public pool here.

Cody Sunkel: 33:44

no, no. Like I, I like got into it in high school. I was a gymnast when I was young and, uh. And yeah, so I got to a level where I could get in, you know, to school for it, but I was never going to be NCAA champ or an Olympian or anything. My friends were, and I was like, there's no way I'm getting there. So, um, but anyway, after I quit diving, I got into gymnastics strength training. And, uh, cause I remember being in gymnastics and just being strong, you know, like you see the people in the Olympics and they're doing all the crazy stuff on the rings. I was like, if I can get a sliver of that again, that would be pretty cool. So I had this like tech experience with internships and I had this passion for fitness and, and uh, strength training started getting CrossFit world. And uh, gymnastics is a third of the CrossFit methodology. So I started coaching classes ultimately after, you know, everyone was like, how do you do this stuff? Like there was no supply for, for material and coaching around gymnastics within CrossFit at the time. And, and so I started doing some seminars and classes and things like that. Well, at a certain point I'm like, this ain't paying the bills. Um, but it was cool. I got to coach, you know. High level CrossFit Games athletes. It's like people at the tippy top world champ, uh, competitors. And, but you know, it wasn't paying the bills. So then I found a job, uh, for an SDR position at Zen planner. They did gym management software for CrossFit gyms and martial arts. And so it was a perfect, yeah, perfect. I actually ended up working with a lot of the same people who I knew from coaching in the business world now. And, you know, um, after maybe five years in six years into that job, we ended up doing a partnership with CrossFit headquarters, um, which is like a, you know, pretty cool thing for me. Um, but yeah, so SDR, uh, managed the SDR team for. Three years there. And then sales director sat on the product leadership team for Zen planner. We got acquired by Daxco. Then I shifted into partnerships. We saw a bigger opportunity there. Um, and started doing those franchise deals and everything, which, you know, in a world of like 2, 000 ACVs for these small gyms that they're paying like 150, 200 bucks a month. Um, we had. 500, 000, like half a million dollar partnerships with some of these affiliations and franchises. And I just heard one of them's worth a mil and a half now. Um, so stuff like that. Right? And that was sort of my journey a little bit of a roundabout way, but. I think with partnerships, what pulled me in is I didn't have to be the typical business guy. Like there's an, there's a cooperation and there's like collaboration and let's do this thing together and not be like cutthroat. And what you think of a traditional like business or what I did, at least it was more about collaboration and how can we be better together? And I really was drawn to that.

Jason Yarborough: 36:50

You got to be the reluctant businessman after all who got to pull in the knowledge, network, and relationships that you built via your CrossFit days.

Cody Sunkel: 36:58

True. Yeah,

Sam Yarborough: 37:00

Okay. So quick shout out because as listeners know, we like to do a lot of research before so we can have more than surface level conversations. Everybody do yourself a favor and go to Cody's YouTube channel. Cause It's like no joke. He is so freaking strong. This stuff is unbelievable. I had no idea And this just goes to show, you've been to our house for dinner and I had no idea, so you never know who, who you're talking to. I think it all correlates though, because like, you were a trainer, um, you know, you've been part of teams, all of those types of things come together in building partnerships and being successful at the role. So, I don't know, sounds roundabout, but I think everybody's roundabout in partnerships.

Cody Sunkel: 37:53

And that's the cool thing, honestly, is like, everyone's got a, uh, a cool, unique story and partnerships and, um, people come from all different walks of life and from all different, like career backgrounds and get into partnerships. So you have such a variety of experiences that just keep things really interesting. It's not like one standard kind of stamped out career path.

Sam Yarborough: 38:15

No doubt.

Jason Yarborough: 38:16

I did read one really interesting blog and from you and we'll move on. I think this was during your Zen planner days, but you talked about the need and the necessity to build a foundation as a, as a, uh, trainer in a box. So I got an athlete at a CrossFit gym, right? And because if you don't have that foundation, then you're prone to injury. And I've tried CrossFit a few times and I think both few times I've gotten injured and you made the correlation between that if like, if you don't have that foundation, if you don't really get built up to the point of being that, that athlete, then you just, you, you cancel your membership and that becomes a turn member for that gym, right? So now you kind of have that, that knowledge and that experience of like how to actually. Train and enable and build up your customers to prevent that level of churn, which is incredibly necessary in both partnerships and as, as a founder. It's like, I really appreciate that, that pose. Like, Hey, I've never thought about it from a gym's perspective. Right. And also you how you can make that correlation between that and what you're doing now.

Cody Sunkel: 39:20

Yeah, man, you guys dug deep. Appreciate that.

Jason Yarborough: 39:23

Yeah. We also, I also asked a chat GPT how to interview you and you know, it. didn't provide anything. So don't try that on Cody. It's not called a partner fleet because it just thinks partner fleet runs a fleet of trucks.

Cody Sunkel: 39:39

Yeah, that's fair. We get that a lot, actually.

Jason Yarborough: 39:41

we

Sam Yarborough: 39:42

I love that though. Jay really quickly. I mean, like I did CrossFit for years. And I remember when I first went to the gym, I would get so frustrated because the trainers wouldn't let me do like whatever the class was doing yet, because I didn't have my form correctly, or I didn't, you know, I wasn't strong enough, whatever it was, but that all makes total sense now. And, you know, relating to the partner side. You gotta help people crawl, walk, run. Otherwise, you're setting yourself up for failure, really.

Jason Yarborough: 40:12

yeah, absolutely. That's

Cody Sunkel: 40:13

And I think CrossFit is actually a good analogy because people, especially like ex athletes, they'll, they'll dive in and go way too hard. I mean, actually the partner manager from Zen planner who really established the program. Um, he's a jujitsu guy. He's now a jujitsu black belt, really high level martial artist. And, um, he's actually a great case study on relationship building for partnerships, by the way, Chris Mearswhack. Um,

Sam Yarborough: 40:41

him on the podcast.

Cody Sunkel: 40:42

yeah, that'd be great. That'd be great. He runs, he runs an academy now, so he's out of the SAS world. But, um, anyway, he jumped into CrossFit one day and he's such an athlete. He just went hard, like an animal. And then he got injured from it. Um, he got rhabdomyo myelosis or whatever you call it. And, um, that's what can happen, right? And I think a lot of people will try to do, they'll go, they'll try to go in too quickly and commit too much in a partnership early on before they've set up the foundation, before they've, like, really developed a, a relationship, you know, and, um, and tried to, like, make sure that they have their ducks in a row. And I think you can spin your wheels and, you know, waste a lot of time and energy, resources, etc. By doing that, I think it's worth calling out that like, yeah, you got to build a foundation. You got to build these relationships and, uh, and make sure that there, there is reciprocity and there is goodwill created and you're kind of matching and mirroring each other.

Jason Yarborough: 41:41

100 percent and spot on, especially on the partnership track. It's like. You know, we, we talk a lot about having, you know, value out first and from a, you know, trainer's perspective, like, you know, my early days of doing CrossFit, I would have really appreciated someone saying like, okay, let's slow your roll a little bit. Let's, you know, make sure that you're doing the right things first. Let us give you some value to make you the best athlete instead of just, you know, Go and ham and throw my back out, you know, as a young lad and, you know, getting a bad taste for CrossFit. I didn't learn that until like our friends at Matabolic in Charlotte taught me that. Shout out Matabolic. But learned that after that, like, you know, ease into it. And the same thing is so true for these, these partnerships that we're running.

Cody Sunkel: 42:21

totally. Yeah.

Jason Yarborough: 42:22

speaking of all this training...

Cody Sunkel: 42:25

sorry. I just got to call this out. Chris is going to be pissed for, uh, me outing him like that, you know, telling everyone he got rabbed from CrossFit, but I'm sorry, Chris. I also. Yeah, I also talked you up. So hopefully we're balanced out.

Jason Yarborough: 42:39

I think I've gotten like, I've tried CrossFit two or three times and each time it's like something happens where they're, they're my back out or a leg and this was when I was young. So I was just trying to go too much, you know, too soon. So don't worry, Chris, it happens to both of us. Like, I'm still getting injured in my garage.

Cody Sunkel: 42:54

Yep

Jason Yarborough: 42:57

Last time you and I, we, we went, we went for a hike, did a little rock for those aren't familiar. We threw what, like 35, 40 pounds in a backpack and hiked eight miles up a mountain. And, uh, we got on this track around like peak performance. And I feel like you and I are kind of on a similar journey in this game of peak performance and pursuing like our, our best selves, you know, figuring out like what that looks like from physical perspective. mental perspective and just all around and becoming the best whole version of ourself. Like, how do you, you know, right now as a new dad, like prioritize your physical health and how do you see that that impacts your mental health and everything else that you're doing?

Cody Sunkel: 43:39

Yeah, I love this topic You know for me honestly coming from the fitness world. It's it's been a lot of it's been second nature I've been passionate about it for a long time But I struggle still, you know, especially now being in more of like a you know, I mean, I'm not in the fitness world I'm not surrounded by it every day Like I was even while I was at Zen Planner and Daxco and and I think it comes down to habit creation for me big time. Um, and you know, I obviously, you know, I love to do like. I have hobbies that are physical, that are healthy, and that's, I think, key. If you have hobbies and you're obsessed, you're thinking about this stuff all the time, you're going to naturally do it, but you still need those habits to, like, trigger that every day. And so, a lot of times, I'll be sitting through a work day on eight Zoom calls or whatever it is, and, uh, and then at the end of the day, I feel kind of tired. I'm not motivated. So, I need something to just, like, jumpstart me and say, like, get the wheels turning. Okay, I'm going to do something active today. Um for me, it's it's little things like if I can at least do my warm up Like I have sort of a standard warm up for um that I do before I train If I can do that it gets everything moving And maybe I'll have a better shot at working out or going on a bike ride or whatever. But even if I just do the warmup, I've done something good for myself that day. And that's just like light yoga like type movement, um, through range of motion and all of that. Um, so I feel like that's a success if I get the warmup, but usually it leads to more. And so the habit creation is, is big there. Um, and I think once you get like into a little bit of a pattern and you're starting to think about. Okay. I want to be active or, or whatever it is. Then you also start to easily think about like the other aspects of health, my nutrition, my sleep, I have a whoop, um, for the, you know, people watching video, there's my whoop, uh, helps me track my sleep, make sure that's dialed in also, like, do I have the minimum threshold of activity through a day that I think is like, um, is healthy for me. So that's sort of how I look at it as like, what are those small little habits that lead to more throughout the day?

Jason Yarborough: 45:59

Yeah. I liked, I liked the approach of just getting started. Like it reminds me of, I saw an interview a while back with Aaron Rogers and I always recall this is like, he, What's your what's your first move in a game and it's like I want to complete, you know I focus on completely like a five yard pass just getting that initial motion getting it going getting back into the game getting the head Right, and then from there I can go deep or I can do whatever but like just accomplish that one little thing to get started And I think that's even emotion and like atomic habits and all these high performers like just freaking get started Just just start wherever you've got to You know, so I think that's a incredible, you know Word of advice. One, one thing I did hear recently on a podcast, and I think it was with author Brooks. Um, if I recall, um, he's talking about when you, and I never even thought about this way, but when you start going down this physical health journey, when you start thinking about the body, the fitness, right, what you're saying just cascades into nutritional and sleep and everything else. But He also talks about how it cascades into, you know, your mental health and how you're thinking about yourself and how you're starting to move along this journey and what, you know, we call here peak performance, uh, but then also how that begins to cascade into everything you're doing in work, life, family, and how it makes everything better. But it starts with that one. You know, again, that one starting point, right? So do you kind of see that to be true in your life? Like, starting with, you know, physical health into mental, into work, into family, just kind of keeps you firing.

Cody Sunkel: 47:29

Oh, for sure. And, and part of it is, I don't know, like, if I have standard for myself that I, you know, I feel bad if I don't hit it on a, on any given day. Right? Like, I have, I have sort of a threshold where I'm like, okay, that was a good day. And it's been really challenging, frankly, with, um, a newborn, you know, four months old right now. Like I said, he's a legend, so it's all good. But, uh, my wife is, she's still on maternity leave, so she, um, she hangs out with him all day. And then when I get done with work, I don't want to just ditch her and go on a mountain bike ride or go work out or, or anything like she needs some relief. And so I think, you know, we'll move him into daycare pretty soon, but. Um, but that's been a big challenge for me. Like my, my hobbies and my, um, habits have been thrown off. But when I do take the time to do something, no matter how small, I feel like, okay, you, you did it. Like I can feel good about myself. And that bleeds into, um, being more tolerant, being, you know, more excited to be hanging out with my little boy and like things like that, where I'm not feeling like, oh, I gotta go do something. I'm feeling like I can be present in the moment and just generally be a better person.

Jason Yarborough: 48:49

Yeah.

Cody Sunkel: 48:50

So I definitely feel that. Yeah.

Jason Yarborough: 48:51

it makes all the difference in the world for me. And I know the same for you, Sam.

Sam Yarborough: 48:56

yeah, I was just gonna say, like, Jason bought me a Garmin for, here it is, for my birthday. And, um... I used to be super physically active and we've since had two kids. And so I feel that so much. Um, our kids are two and four, they are not four months old. Um, But it's very easy like how your lifestyle changes and then all of a sudden something that defined you as you know I was a powerlifter. I am nowhere near a powerlifter now But it is really interesting paying attention to those things and then having to like, you know Reinsert these habits into your life like in full transparency Jason and I Jason actually laughs at me but like on my garment my stress for the last few weeks has been like this is really embarrassing to announce but Between 60 and 90 all day long, every day, it's on a scale of one to a hundred for those of you

Jason Yarborough: 49:54

It's, it's been pretty bad.

Sam Yarborough: 49:56

And for me, I'm like, no, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. But having that data point has been really interesting to be like, no, you're not. Like, go sit down, go do some yoga, go for a walk, reclaim your life. And like, it has, it does make an impact across the board. Like, I'm like, no, I have to be present with the kids. Well, I'm not because I'm. Irritable, I'm overly stressed, you know, all these things add up if you just don't take care of yourself. So,

Cody Sunkel: 50:25

Yeah, I had a thought recently that I've been trying to keep at the forefront of my mind, but, you know, like people who are busy, which is most of us, let's say they're like, oh, how do you have so much time to ride your bike or go work out or, you know, do whatever it is that is recreational for you or just like these. Yeah. These healthy hobbies because you have kids, you have a job, et cetera. But I think it should be more of like, Oh, wow. How do you have. This much time to work, you know, because you have all these other obligations. You have to work out, ride your bike. You have your family, you know, like that should compress the amount of time that you work rather than the opposite. And that's easier said than done. Of course, especially, I mean, I signed up to be a SAS founder. Like I'm signing up to work a lot. However, I, this is the other thing. Like, I think if you do it right as a founder. You don't need to put yourself into a position where you're working 60 to 80 hours a week. You know, like I want to, I still want to get everything I need to done, grow the company rapidly, support my team, all the stuff that I need to do as a founder. In a 40 hour week and that's, that's usually not realistic, but that's what I'm striving for still, you know,

Jason Yarborough: 51:37

Yeah, I mean, start these companies to kind of control our own time and destiny and most of us end up losing all of their time and, you know, access to what really matters to them as a person. I think it's a, it's a, it's a good perspective on priority.

Cody Sunkel: 51:52

for sure. Yep.

Jason Yarborough: 51:53

Cool. Well, this is, this has been awesome. Um, I think we can bring this home. Um, We like to try to take it a, you know, more of a fun route to close here. Uh, we asked this question a few weeks ago and I just loved it. We got a great answer, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw it your way. Um, so if If, if you, uh, Cody Sunkle were a packaged action figure that was sold at a toy store or Amazon, like what would your, we don't want to call it a weapon, but what would your benefit be, what would your superpower be that, that you came with, with inside of the package?

Cody Sunkel: 52:32

it's funny. I just had this funny, like email string with this guy who's interested in my van. His last name is Cody and he gave me like the whole background on the name Cody. But one thing he said is that like his wife tried to name his son Tarzan. And I have like a very, which is like hilarious, right? But, uh, but like, um,

Sam Yarborough: 52:53

Talk about legend.

Cody Sunkel: 52:55

yeah, yeah. I've always, um, you know, I've always had this like acrobatic nature to me. And so swinging on vines from a tree sounds pretty cool. So I might make that my, uh,

Jason Yarborough: 53:06

I love

Cody Sunkel: 53:06

you know, superpower.

Jason Yarborough: 53:08

Yeah. Do you come with like a vine that connects and attaches to everything kind of like, you know, almost like a lasso, Indiana Jones style.

Cody Sunkel: 53:16

Yep, there we go. We just, yeah, swing from anything you can toss it over, I guess.

Sam Yarborough: 53:20

Organic spider man. I

Cody Sunkel: 53:22

Yeah,

Jason Yarborough: 53:25

So good.

Cody Sunkel: 53:26

question.

Jason Yarborough: 53:27

Yeah, something to think about. Uh, Justin, Justin Gray had a good one. His was, uh, I would come with Relationship Rays. Basically, like, you know, what's his name from? X Men, just shooting out Relationship Rays.

Cody Sunkel: 53:40

That's sweet.

Sam Yarborough: 53:42

All right, well Cody, thank you You know, I feel this way at the end of all of these conversations that we could continue to talk for forever. So, how about this? You just come over for dinner again before you leave and we'll continue the conversation.

Cody Sunkel: 53:57

I'm there. I'm there.

Sam Yarborough: 53:59

Perfect. Friends, thanks so much for joining us yet again. We appreciate you immensely and we'll talk to you next time.

Jason Yarborough: 54:06

See y'all later.