Your Job Shouldn't Cost Your Life with Casey Calkins

Sometimes the wake-up call isn’t a missed quarter, it’s your body telling you the pace you’ve been running at is no longer sustainable.

This week, we’re sitting down with Casey Calkins, Facilitator & Coach, and founder of C2it Partners, where she helps sales leaders build healthier, higher performing teams. Casey shares what it looked like to live in a constant high-demand stress loop, the health spiral it created, and the moment she realized she couldn’t keep letting work be the thing that mattered most.

We get into how leadership and wellbeing are tied together more than most people want to admit, why your team learns more from your behavior than your calendar talk, and how to start releasing the control that quietly fuels burnout. Casey also walks through simple practices that helped her reset, plus a decision filter that makes the day-to-day feel lighter fast: knowing which “balls” are glass and which ones are rubber.

What you’ll learn:

• How chronic stress can feel productive until it starts costing you your health
• Why your example as a leader sets the standard for boundaries on your team
• A simple framework to protect what’s fragile while letting the rest bounce

Jump into the conversation:

(00:00) Introduction

(01:56) Meet Casey Calkins and the big tech wake-up call  

(03:30) The LinkedIn post that sparked the chronic stress loop conversation  

(06:35) Always on culture and why recovery gets ignored  

(09:17) Boundaries are leadership and your team mirrors your tone  

(14:34) Why managers get promoted with zero enablement  

(23:42) The real work of leading people and why burnout is still taboo  

(29:37) Self regulation and how your energy sets the room  

(31:04) The self awareness traps overconfidence vs imposter syndrome  

(34:18) Simple resets that work walks sunlight and real breaks  

(35:52) True rest for Type A leaders and how to schedule it  

(39:43) Phone and sleep hygiene and breaking the doomscroll cycle  

(41:55) When it feels impossible and how to downshift with purpose  

(47:59) You are not indispensable and why that is freedom

Connect with Casey Calkins: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caseycalkins/ 

Check out C2it Partners: https://www.c2itpartners.com/ 

Check out Arcadia: https://www.BeArcadia.com  

Connect with Sam Yarborough: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sam-yarborough/ 

Connect with Jason Yarborough: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yarby/ 

Produced in partnership with Share Your Genius

https://www.shareyourgenius.com 

Transcript

[00:00:00] Casey Calkins: Your life is really important. Your life is more important than your job. life is more important than your professional identity. It's more than your job, A lot of us have wrapped into our jobs, our professional identity. I would question if they've actually given it a try to see what happens. But when you do try and it doesn't work, if you have truly tried and it's not working. Then it's time to question, is this the time for a change? ​ 

[00:00:50] Sam Yarborough: Hey, hey, 

[00:00:51] Jason Yarborough: what's happening? 

[00:00:51] Sam Yarborough: We're in person again. 

[00:00:52] Jason Yarborough: I know. It's much better here in person. 

[00:00:54] Sam Yarborough: Much better. 

[00:00:55] Jason Yarborough: The walls are kind of dark, makes it feel kinda weird, but I like seeing you across from me, not, uh, down in the kitchen 

[00:01:01] Sam Yarborough: through a Zoom screen, even though we're two floors apart. Um, today's episode was fun, I thought.

[00:01:07] Jason Yarborough: Yeah, I thought it was great. I didn't know Casey. Uh, we were connected on LinkedIn and that was about it. 

[00:01:12] Sam Yarborough: Yeah, 

[00:01:12] Jason Yarborough: so it was a really, really good conversation 

[00:01:14] Sam Yarborough: as the world goes. Um. Casey is a phenomenal human. I met her through LinkedIn also, but I reached out because, um, she started posting some pretty vulnerable content that I resonated with and I know a lot of other people did too.

[00:01:30] Sam Yarborough: So, 

[00:01:31] Jason Yarborough: yeah. And she comes from a world that you're very well versed in Salesforce. 

[00:01:34] Sam Yarborough: Yeah. She spent a lot of time at Salesforce, but even. Even further as a sales manager, um, a people leader. Yeah. I think that we can all relate to. Um, 

[00:01:44] Jason Yarborough: I really appreciated the take around like how she's trying to connect performance to wellbeing.

[00:01:49] Jason Yarborough: And that's a lot of what we talk about with like Arcadia. 

[00:01:51] Sam Yarborough: Mm-hmm. 

[00:01:51] Jason Yarborough: The stuff we're doing, how to find harmony and bring your whole self into the work that you do. And really seems like she's very well. Aligned to, to the stuff we're talking about. 

[00:02:00] Sam Yarborough: Totally. I had some light bulb moments during this episode too.

[00:02:03] Sam Yarborough: Okay, so Casey Calkins is today's guest. Um, she spent a lot of her career as a senior sales leader and found herself in a really not great situation health wise, because as she put it, the addiction to chronic stress got the best of her. 

[00:02:20] Jason Yarborough: Yeah, that story's crazy.

[00:02:22] Sam Yarborough: Yeah. So, um, now she. Has taken a step back is reclaiming kind of what success looks like to her, but is also helping leaders and companies, as you said, kind of define how to be a great leader while not putting your 

[00:02:39] Jason Yarborough: Yeah, 

[00:02:39] Sam Yarborough: literal life on the line. Yeah. Yeah. So I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thanks for being here.

[00:02:46] Jason Yarborough: See y'all. 

[00:02:47] Sam Yarborough: Casey, thank you so much for joining the show today. 

[00:02:50] Jason Yarborough: Yeah. Hello. Good to meet You

[00:02:52] Casey Calkins: Good to meet you too.

[00:02:54] Jason Yarborough: didn't even get the, uh, the informals outta the way before we jumped right in. 

[00:02:58] Sam Yarborough: No, we're just gonna jump right in. 'cause as always, we have a lot to cover. 

[00:03:03] Sam Yarborough: So Casey, I don't even really remember how we met, but I'm thinking it was through LinkedIn. Maybe I read one of your posts, vice versa, and then we, I think we just exchanged dms and then had a few conversations, if that sounds right to you.

[00:03:16] Casey Calkins: I feel Sam, like perhaps I had, I had gotten brave enough a few months back to put out a very personal post about, um, my health. I feel like you might have reached out to me after I posted that. 

[00:03:29] Sam Yarborough: I think that tracks. Yeah.

[00:03:31] Casey Calkins: It like went kind of viral, which was really scary, uh, and viral for me. Like, listen, I'm by no means 

[00:03:37] Sam Yarborough: Uh, no, I think it did. I think on LinkedIn it did. Let's just start there. Do you care, would you mind giving us a, giving us a run through of that story? Because I think the reason it went viral is because so many people resonated with it.

[00:03:51] Casey Calkins: yeah. It's really funny in the aftermath of it too, so. I kind of, I spoke about the catalyst for me leaving my career in corporate and pursuing something on my own, and I say catalyst, but it wasn't really an instantaneous catalyst. I always worked in corporate America, high tech for several years, big tech in roles of sales leadership, which. If anybody who's been in that world knows it's extremely high energy, fast-paced, constant,

[00:04:24] Sam Yarborough: And also when she says this, we're talking like VP of Salesforce, so

[00:04:30] Sam Yarborough: this is like

[00:04:31] Sam Yarborough: large roles, 

[00:04:33] Jason Yarborough: definitely high demand.

[00:04:34] Casey Calkins: we were managing a pretty big book of business. Uh, and I say that I think I constantly under my time when I was there, um, because it's such a big, huge organization. But yeah, it definitely was a demanding role and COVID rocked my world as a working mother.

[00:04:51] Casey Calkins: Um, and I, I think there are certain personalities that fall into those roles that. become their own kryptonite, um, in the sense that I succumb to my own kind of chronic stress addiction, if you will. I don't like the word burnout. I think it's a little bit overused, But I do think that there is a real distinguished. Dopamine hit that comes with that constant stress loop,

[00:05:15] Casey Calkins: and it took a real toll on my health. Um, I started dealing with really bad chronic migraines and, I had an episode, I had a couple, one episode in my t my late twenties, and then I had it again in 2021, we, it turned out to be a cerebellar stroke at the age of

[00:05:32] Jason Yarborough: Wow.

[00:05:33] Casey Calkins: Um, yeah, it was like. Kind of a, am I allowed to curse on this podcast? It was a holy

[00:05:42] Jason Yarborough: Hell yeah.

[00:05:43] Casey Calkins: Right? and at first they didn't know what it was because I was so young. They questioned if it was actually that. I had a, went through a slew of tests to find out that I did have certain physiological factors that contributed to this environment of, um. Being more prone to stroke. However, the doctors were like, you're living in an unsustainable lifestyle right now

[00:06:11] Casey Calkins: And you need 

[00:06:12] Casey Calkins: to check yourself. So I took some time off. I got my health under control and I actually went back, um, and I was feeling like I've got this renewed sense of energy. And um, it wasn't until about two years later that I had this realization of. I'm going down this path again. I'm constantly having migraines again, and I really just had this eyeopening experience of life is quite literally too short for me to do this, and if I

[00:06:43] Casey Calkins: don't try 

[00:06:43] Casey Calkins: to do something on my own, on my own terms. I think that was a big thing for me, was doing it on my terms, not on other people's terms.

[00:06:51] Casey Calkins: I'll regret it for the rest of my life.

[00:06:54] Sam Yarborough: Yeah. 

[00:06:54] Jason Yarborough: Love that. 

[00:06:57] Jason Yarborough: It's very interesting that you mentioned the chronic stress that led to the, you know, we, we'll call it burnout, for lack of a better term, even though. but I was just reading about that this morning, in a book called Excellence by Brad Stohlberg, big fan, and he was talking about, you know, Stress can be a good thing, right? But stress plus rest equals, you know, recovery and growth. But when you're constantly living in that and you're not able to recover, not able to rest, not able to, you know, bring yourself back from it, that's when it gets bad. That's when, you know, people experience burnout.

[00:07:29] Jason Yarborough: Apparently. They, people experience strokes.

[00:07:31] Casey Calkins: 

[00:07:31] Jason Yarborough: like, I think it's, it's,

[00:07:32] Casey Calkins: health issues. Right. 

[00:07:33] Jason Yarborough: 

[00:07:33] Casey Calkins: it's the looming undercurrent for everybody and you look at everything from diabetes to cancer 

[00:07:40] Jason Yarborough: Yep.

[00:07:40] Casey Calkins: heart disease, um. not even mentioning depression, anxiety, and all the other mental health issues.

[00:07:45] Casey Calkins: The underlying comorbidity is stress, 

[00:07:49] Casey Calkins: and we 

[00:07:49] Sam Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:07:50] Casey Calkins: to just slough it off as nothing as just normal life. And frankly, we live in a culture that, really leans into it and 

[00:07:59] Sam Yarborough: Encourages it.

[00:08:00] Jason Yarborough: Oh, almost rewards it. Yeah.

[00:08:02] Casey Calkins: it. And by the way, when, compared to when I first got into the workforce 20 years ago, have a laptop with my first corporate job.

[00:08:12] Casey Calkins: I didn't have a cell phone, I had a desk phone, and I had a, a desk desktop com top

[00:08:18] Jason Yarborough: And an abacus.

[00:08:20] Casey Calkins: and an abacus. That's right. Yeah. Back in my day. Um, but there is something to be said for the natural boundaries.

[00:08:29] Casey Calkins: That were created with that. Right.

[00:08:31] Casey Calkins: and it's kind of gone now. It's really tempting to always have this thing in your hand. Just one more

[00:08:37] Sam Yarborough: It's gone and I think the expectations of it staying at work are also gone. 

[00:08:42] Jason Yarborough: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:43] Casey Calkins: Yeah. 

[00:08:43] Jason Yarborough: Yeah. Do you, do you find that was like part of, like that chronic stress is like the ability to always have it right in front of you?

[00:08:50] Casey Calkins: yeah. Um, gosh, it's really tempting. It's also very hard. I started setting really clear boundaries for myself and my work, it, it gets really hard and it's real, how difficult it is when you feel like you're always the one trying to set the tone for boundaries. Trying to set the tone for emotional regulation and. Managing your own cortisol levels. it's hard when you're the one that logs off at 6:00 PM and doesn't log back on at 10, and then you wake up the next morning and you missed all of your colleagues slacking back and forth, if you will, or on teams back and forth until 1:00 AM. that's, that's hard.

[00:09:36] Jason Yarborough: Talk to me more about that, that feeling of needing, like you have to set the tone.

[00:09:40] Jason Yarborough: like you, you felt that as, as a leader, you were in a VP role? Correct. So you felt like you had to set the tone, like the pace, like everything the team did, you felt like rising rises and falls on you. Like tell us more about what that felt like.

[00:09:52] Casey Calkins: I think leaders frequently. Underestimate how much they set the tone for the team. I was constantly that leader of super accommodating to everyone on my team. I encouraged PTOI. Granted PTOI granted flexibility. I would take calls the sidelines at my kids' baseball games. I would. Be responding to emails not all the time, but late at night. And think I underestimated how much those actions actually spoke louder the words

[00:10:32] Jason Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:10:32] Casey Calkins: to the team. I have a lot of

[00:10:34] Jason Yarborough: Mm. That's great.

[00:10:34] Casey Calkins: to me wanting me to come and talk to their teams about stress management, self-regulation. Burnout boundaries and work and home life. you know, wellness and balance. But it's really, really difficult to look in the mirror and acknowledge as the executive of this team that maybe the linchpin of this is actually you. Not what you're telling your team to do, but how you're actually handling yourself

[00:11:02] Sam Yarborough: Yeah. 

[00:11:02] Jason Yarborough: So good.

[00:11:03] Casey Calkins: for others.

[00:11:04] Jason Yarborough: Yeah, I think tone versus example. Right? 

[00:11:09] Sam Yarborough: I agree completely and I think that there's so much to unpeel there of. even have written about this, but as a manager, it feels like the default is to do everybody's job, to be constantly available to, you know, in today's society, we've alluded to this, but like wearing this badge of exhaustion of stress is almost a badge of honor.

[00:11:31] Sam Yarborough: and, and so how do you. Just by leading by example, how do you still feel accomplished and in control while giving your team the right example? Does that question like without burning yourself out and making sure that everything's done, how do you create, I guess that's a culture question. How do you create a culture where everybody shows up?

[00:11:50] Casey Calkins: I used to tell my team at the beginning of every new fiscal year that my goal was to empower them to be the most effective self-managing individuals possible. Team, and that meant holding them accountable to expectations that we have for the job, but also giving them the space to reach those goals in the way that is best for them. I don't expect people to do things the way that I do them. I don't know if I'm answering your question, Sam.

[00:12:23] Sam Yarborough: No, I think you are. I think it's, it's the, it's exactly that. So do you feel that you were able to help your team accomplish that goal through your actions? Like were they watching you as a leader and being like, oh, I have to do it that way, or were you giving them the space to figure it out on their own?

[00:12:39] Casey Calkins: I think it evolved over time. So I think in my first couple years of leadership, it was a lot of over-functioning. doing instead of. Leading people to do things because I was afraid of it getting messed up. I

[00:12:51] Sam Yarborough: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:52] Casey Calkins: prove myself. And also, um, there is an element of, it's just faster if I do it right. but the longer I was in it, you get more clarity on. When you think of balls in the air, which balls are made of glass, that if they fall, they're gonna shatter, and which balls are made of rubber that if they fall, it's annoying, but they're not gonna break, they're gonna bounce.

[00:13:15] Jason Yarborough: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:16] Casey Calkins: I, as a leader, really made it my job to help my team. Understand what balls are made out of glass and what balls are made out of rubber. And I will step in on those things that are made out of glass as needed. If it's looking like it's gonna drop, I'm gonna step in and help you ensure that it doesn't drop. but those things that are made out of rubber, I would even tell them, I'm gonna let you try to handle those on your own.

[00:13:41] Casey Calkins: Because I know that if you mess up and you fail, it's gonna be okay.

[00:13:45] Jason Yarborough: Hmm.

[00:13:46] Casey Calkins: that sometimes meant, this may seem like very taboo to say as a sales leader, that sometimes meant letting them mess up and actually lose deals

[00:13:56] Jason Yarborough: Yeah,

[00:13:56] Casey Calkins: team. Right? and if it was not a thing that was gonna be the end of the world for making our number for the year, then. the learning experience was more valuable than

[00:14:08] Casey Calkins: the contract value that we might bring in, but that requires the long-term vision that I think, like, I try very hard now to help leaders empower their new managers to get to that place faster without having to

[00:14:20] Sam Yarborough: Mm.

[00:14:21] Casey Calkins: the mess ups ear early on in their career.

[00:14:23] Sam Yarborough: I mean, I feel like that's giving me anxiety, just listening, um, because I feel like so many, mean, I think 

[00:14:32] Jason Yarborough: the letting go part, 

[00:14:33] Sam Yarborough: the letting go part, yeah.

[00:14:33] Casey Calkins: go. Yeah, no,

[00:14:35] Sam Yarborough: Says my husband. But I feel like so many leaders wouldn't do that because at the end of the day, they feel responsible for like, it's their name on the line.

[00:14:45] Sam Yarborough: It's, they're responsible ultimately for the end results. 

[00:14:49] Jason Yarborough: also you're responsible for like your, your team. Learning, growing and developing. 

[00:14:53] Sam Yarborough: Absolutely. However, I feel like that goes by the wayside most often. 

[00:14:58] Sam Yarborough: And I wanna talk to you about this. I'm gonna ask you about this, Casey, but I feel you've talked about this.

[00:15:03] Sam Yarborough: Leaders get into these opportunities, into these roles with no training,

[00:15:08] Sam Yarborough: and so then leaders are left to their own devices of like. It's not necessarily my job to like make my team the best they can be. It's my job to hit results and sometimes those two things, aren't happening at the same 

[00:15:22] Jason Yarborough: time.

[00:15:22] Jason Yarborough: Yeah. They become world support, 

[00:15:23] Sam Yarborough: right?

[00:15:23] Casey Calkins: think one thing I loved about Salesforce is, I think they as a, as a company for the most part, within the organizations that in the business that I worked in, they widened the aperture on what are the definitions for success.

[00:15:37] Sam Yarborough: Mm.

[00:15:37] Casey Calkins: a sales team, yes, results is absolutely there, but other things that go into that for measurements for success as a leader are one of the top things that I'm really proud of as a leader when I was there was how many people did I promote during my time 

[00:15:51] Casey Calkins: when I was a 

[00:15:51] Jason Yarborough: Oh, that's great.

[00:15:52] Jason Yarborough: Do you remember the number?

[00:15:54] Casey Calkins: God no. But if I looked up one of my slide decks from when I was trying to get promoted, I did. 'cause that was something I would look at and I'd be like, by the way, look at how many people, not only did I promote, but how many people did I promote into the roles of leadership at the company?

[00:16:06] Casey Calkins: 

[00:16:06] Jason Yarborough: Those are great metrics.

[00:16:08] Casey Calkins: when they're trying to grow a business, term and long term, they wanna both see short-term results, but they also wanna see consistency. So I would look at. Are you having these crazy high years and then low years? Or do we have consistency over time? And then also, how much are we developing our people for a pipeline of new leaders over time?

[00:16:30] Sam Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:16:30] Casey Calkins: with you, Sam, that there is an element of cultural norm, particularly in certain industries. That is over-indexing on results only, and

[00:16:43] Sam Yarborough: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:43] Casey Calkins: into some bad behaviors that new managers will pick up on, right?

[00:16:49] Casey Calkins: People will focus on what you reward, whether it's through their compensation or through what you promote, what behaviors you promote and celebrate.

[00:16:59] Casey Calkins: And that's the message from the top down, right?

[00:17:02] Sam Yarborough: I wanna dive into that a little bit more. 'cause you know, we talk to leaders all the time and I do find it so fascinating. We just had, an executive from Boeing come speak to our community and he was talking about he spent 36 years in leadership at, you know, high executive levels within Boeing.

[00:17:20] Sam Yarborough: And his leadership journey looked like on a Friday afternoon, he went to his manager's office. The manager said, I think you should be a people leader. Let me know on Monday if you're interested. Monday he came in and they were like, yeah, this sounds great. What do I do now? And the response was, you'll figure it out.

[00:17:37] Jason Yarborough: Yeah, you got this.

[00:17:38] Casey Calkins: Yeah, that's right. very

[00:17:40] Sam Yarborough: And so. It's so typical. I think we've all been in that position. Mm-hmm. Like we've both been leaders, but nobody like, here's the handbook, here's, you know, so leaders are very much left to their own devices, to either like, have an example that they're looking after or do a bunch of research on their own.

[00:17:59] Sam Yarborough: But it does become a very individual journey of like, what does leadership look like? So, first question, why do you think that is? Like, why is it such an overlooked role? And given how much impact it really can have on organizations and culture and everything that comes along with that,

[00:18:17] Casey Calkins: Yeah. Gosh, it's such a good question, Sam, and it's a lot of why I do what I do. Um. there's a metric, um, that was put out there by, I believe it was McKinsey said that frontline managers are leading between 60 and 75% of your workforce, and yet they receive 

[00:18:35] Sam Yarborough: they'll figure it out.

[00:18:36] Casey Calkins: They receive the least.

[00:18:37] Casey Calkins: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Show they received the least amount of, uh, training and, uh, development dollars. from a company, the bulk of training and development dollars go to more senior roles of leadership, right. I don't know quite what the answer is. I think there is certainly element of the business is moving really fast. And we can't slow, slow down for, for these people to learn. They need to

[00:19:01] Sam Yarborough: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:02] Casey Calkins: out how to dive in quickly. And a lot of that will be why people got promoted into the role, was their ability to think on their feet and act quickly. I think another element of it could potentially be that some of those senior executives, had to figure it out on their own, therefore they think that other people should have to figure it out on their own as well.

[00:19:21] Jason Yarborough: Or they're told to go read a leadership book.

[00:19:22] Casey Calkins: Right. Like, go figure it out. but I think the other thing that'll oftentimes happen is, because first line managers do have so much on their plate, I think they themselves, I mean, think about yourselves. When you were first promoted to being a manager,

[00:19:37] Jason Yarborough: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:38] Casey Calkins: enablement thrown on your calendar, what was your first reaction?

[00:19:41] Jason Yarborough: Well, I'm the classic leader of, like, I never had an enablement thrown on my calendar like, Hey, you're, you're leading this team now. You got five people.

[00:19:47] Jason Yarborough: Good luck.

[00:19:48] Casey Calkins: yeah.

[00:19:49] Sam Yarborough: I mean, honestly, same. Yeah,

[00:19:51] Casey Calkins: I had companies where no enablement was put on my calendar, or there was, and I would usually eye roll and decline

[00:20:01] Sam Yarborough: I don't have time for this, right? 

[00:20:02] Jason Yarborough: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:03] Casey Calkins: I don't have time. I'm trying to deal with a burning building 24 7. I don't have time for this.

[00:20:08] Sam Yarborough: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:08] Casey Calkins: of times there is this element of those individual leaders themselves needing to feel like they have the space the capacity to even invest in it, in themselves. And part of that changes by the people who are delivering the training, being people that those leaders respect. In my experience, when those enablements were provided, they were oftentimes being delivered by either third party companies that have no idea about a day in my life,

[00:20:36] Jason Yarborough: Right. 

[00:20:37] Sam Yarborough: Yes.

[00:20:37] Casey Calkins: life, right? they're being delivered by someone that feels so disconnected from my world that again, they have idea what I'm going through. Hence, going back to I don't have time for this.

[00:20:49] Casey Calkins: I have deals to close.

[00:20:50] Jason Yarborough: how do you think enablement could better teach you the. lessons or the, the gift of empowerment. So I feel like most leaders, uh, miss out on the fact of like how to empower their people. Right. I, I think somewhere you mentioned about like leading through your people instead of around them.

[00:21:06] Jason Yarborough: I,

[00:21:07] Jason Yarborough: I think when you really empower people, you're able to lead through them. If that's the way I'm taking it from your, your context, but I'd love to hear more about, about that phrasing.

[00:21:16] Casey Calkins: yeah, going back to things like influential communication, letting go of control and delegation. And I have a, a thought on that too, Sam, by the way, when you said that gave you anxiety, 'cause it did for me for a long time too. a lot of it is as an enablement partner within a company. Find the leaders in your organization or outside that are already modeling that really well and ask for them to be the ones delivering it. Because a lot of it comes down to who is delivering the content. it's coming directly from me, the enablement partner, it's probably not going to be listened to in the same way as an SVP would,

[00:21:53] Casey Calkins: who's walked in their shoes. I think it, a lot of it will come down to. Who is delivering it now, if you don't have someone in your organization that you see modeling that behavior really well, um, you can either look at empowering the people higher up or look for people outside of your organization that the people within it will respect in that same way.

[00:22:13] Casey Calkins: On the topic of control and letting go of control and I have a number to deliver on and it's on my shoulders. I do think, this is particularly hard, no offense, Jason, but it's exceptionally hard for women,

[00:22:28] Sam Yarborough: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:29] Casey Calkins: mothers deal with this a lot at home too. We feel a

[00:22:32] Sam Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:22:33] Casey Calkins: responsibility to be the ones carrying the household with our kids, and I actually feel like. COVID and COVID parenting was the biggest lesson for me in letting go of control and realizing in my home, are glass balls and which are rubber balls. If

[00:22:52] Sam Yarborough: Hmm.

[00:22:53] Casey Calkins: is cooking dinner and there's no greens on the plate, we're gonna be fine.

[00:22:56] Casey Calkins: Like the

[00:22:57] Sam Yarborough: Rubber.

[00:22:58] Casey Calkins: Rubber, rubber ball that's gonna bounce. Right?

[00:23:01] Sam Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:23:02] Casey Calkins: the number one question I had a senior leader at Salesforce say to me once was, you need to ask the question. Every time you're looking at a task on your calendar or a meeting on your calendar, am I uniquely qualified to be the one on this call? What are my unique qualifications for this? And I ask the same thing at home too. Am I uniquely qualified as the mom to do this one, to do this thing when it comes to the kids? Or could that be delegated to someone else that's equally qualified? They might do it different,

[00:23:31] Sam Yarborough: But it will still get done. 

[00:23:32] Jason Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:23:33] Casey Calkins: done

[00:23:34] Sam Yarborough: I like that. The uniquely qualified. Yeah. 

[00:23:37] Jason Yarborough: I heard it put yesterday a little more simpler terms that if it's not a, he said it's a, if it's not a fuck yes, then it's a no. But if it's not a resounding yes that you have to do it, then it's an absolute no. I was like, that's a little more simpler terms for us, doesn't me?

[00:23:47] Sam Yarborough: This just became a, a, a capital E episode. 

[00:23:52] Jason Yarborough: It was in quotes. It was in quotes. It was, uh oh, 

[00:23:54] Sam Yarborough: okay. So it 

[00:23:54] Jason Yarborough: just, it was Mark Manson. So like his book is titled, you know. 

[00:23:58] Sam Yarborough: That's fair. That's fair.

[00:24:00] Jason Yarborough: Yeah. 

[00:24:01] Sam Yarborough: Okay. 

[00:24:03] Sam Yarborough: So Casey, you've gone through many leadership roles yourself, and now you're doing very tangential, but different work.

[00:24:09] Sam Yarborough: Can you talk about the work you're doing now? 

[00:24:11] Casey Calkins: course. here's the thing about that I think you'll both appreciate about entrepreneurship is, uh, can evolve over time, what you're

[00:24:19] Sam Yarborough: That is very true. 

[00:24:21] Jason Yarborough: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:21] Casey Calkins: initially when I started this business, C2it Partners, I intentionally, called it that so it could be a little open-ended and freeform with what I wanted to do Initially, it started out as a lot of consulting for consulting and coaching for executives, um, in small business on how to streamline revenue and people operations. I've kind of moved away from that more. I then was more in co the world of coaching for leaders and for new leaders within companies, and that has now evolved into more facilitation and training. But the key theme on all of this. Has been focusing on the soft skills of leadership.

[00:25:02] Sam Yarborough: Hmm.

[00:25:02] Casey Calkins: most companies, if they're providing anything in the way of training or facilitation, it's gonna be more of the quote unquote hard skills.

[00:25:08] Casey Calkins: If we're talking about the world of sales, where I came from, you're most likely, if you're going to get any enablement, it's going to be on things like how to forecast accurately, operationally run a, run your book of business, maybe how to. Use data to make good decisions when it comes to where your team should focus on next for, um, sales plays and things of that nature. and maybe you have some training on one-on-ones or hard conversations, giving feedback, and then you're probably thrown into the fire at some point if you have to. If someone has to be out of the business, 

[00:25:39] Sam Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:25:40] Casey Calkins: thrown into the fire on how to have that conversation and how to document. it's very rare that you're having any. Real training or enablement on things like, like we talked about how to lead through your team, how to delegate effectively and let go of control because you're going to burnout, how to manage your own stress, and self-management and self-regulation.

[00:26:01] Casey Calkins: things like, how to handle boundaries and relationships when you all of a sudden are thrown into managing your former friends.

[00:26:09] Sam Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:26:10] Casey Calkins: you're the boss. that's really the key themes that I have been focused on. And in 2026, it's really focused around working with business owners and organizations on speaking and workshops on those topics.

[00:26:25] Sam Yarborough: So I feel like soft skills. Have been turned by the wayside for years,

[00:26:31] Casey Calkins: Yeah.

[00:26:31] Sam Yarborough: and some people are lucky enough to just innately have them. How is this landing in your sales cycle? Like, are people all about this? Do they wanna know the exact ROI associated with it? Like what does that look like?

[00:26:45] Casey Calkins: Oh yeah, I've been doing a lot of work on my ICP lately, ideal

[00:26:49] Jason Yarborough: Nice.

[00:26:50] Casey Calkins: Right. it's landing very interestingly, depending on the topic. Within emotional intelligence.

[00:26:58] Jason Yarborough: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:59] Casey Calkins: the topic of burnout is a really interesting one. I've learned that it's a topic that everyone feels, but few want to actually acknowledge and do something about, 

[00:27:10] Jason Yarborough: I feel like a lot of it, or people are afraid of it too, of like getting to that point.

[00:27:13] Casey Calkins: a scary thing.

[00:27:14] Casey Calkins: It's very

[00:27:15] Jason Yarborough: And you, and it's, I feel like it's also you. I'd be curious to hear what you're hearing about it, but it's kind of taboo to talk about it in the workplace.

[00:27:22] Casey Calkins: Talk about it. If I'm a leader acknowledging it with my team, am I somehow saying there's something wrong with us 

[00:27:31] Jason Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:27:32] Casey Calkins: with our culture? rather than thinking of it as a preventative, type of measure to talk about, but it feels really vulnerable, right?

[00:27:40] Casey Calkins: now when it comes to things like communication effectiveness, communicating with influence,

[00:27:46] Sam Yarborough: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:46] Casey Calkins: to have effective conversations to gain buy-in for things like change management, that side of emotional intelligence, um, is really, really landing 

[00:27:57] Casey Calkins: with a 

[00:27:57] Sam Yarborough: I am sure. 

[00:27:58] Casey Calkins: as is topics like, Self-regulation, emotional regulation for new managers is a big one that I'm having a lot of people bring me in on. So it's interesting. Some of it people love. Others People are kind of like, that's a little too personal. That's too personal. We can't go there.

[00:28:14] Jason Yarborough: We interrupt this episode with some breaking news. 

[00:28:19] Jason Yarborough: Big breaking news, 

[00:28:20] Sam Yarborough: big breaking news. Hmm. 

[00:28:21] Jason Yarborough: Love me some BB n. 

[00:28:23] Sam Yarborough: For the third time, we are hosting the 

[00:28:26] Jason Yarborough: Arcadia Leadership Experience 

[00:28:29] Sam Yarborough: July 27th through 30th in the woods of Montana. 

[00:28:33] Jason Yarborough: Yeah. New location this year. Deeper in the mountains, which is gonna be Funer.

[00:28:38] Jason Yarborough: It's got some great spectacular views of the Bridger Mountains. 

[00:28:41] Sam Yarborough: Sure does. Creek, we've 

[00:28:42] Jason Yarborough: creek got there to see a couple times. 

[00:28:43] Sam Yarborough: We've got a creek on property. 

[00:28:45] Jason Yarborough: Also there's yaks 

[00:28:47] Sam Yarborough: yak, kitty yak, yaks, 

[00:28:49] Jason Yarborough: yaks on property. But anyway, what is this Arcadia leadership experience known as? A LX. 

[00:28:55] Sam Yarborough: A LX is an anti conference.

[00:28:58] Jason Yarborough: Like a conference, but not a conference. 

[00:29:00] Sam Yarborough: Correct. Hence the anti for 65 of the top go to market. GTM leaders in the space. Mm-hmm. Coming together to learn from each other, build intentional relationships, have really unique experiences together, like fly fishing, yoga, 

[00:29:17] Jason Yarborough: hiking, 

[00:29:18] Sam Yarborough: sound, bath. 

[00:29:19] Jason Yarborough: But it's also great because like we're helping people discover.

[00:29:22] Jason Yarborough: Purpose and refresh. There's a lot of psychology of like being in the woods for two hours. Kinda reset your brain. Like imagine what three days in the woods can do for you. 

[00:29:30] Sam Yarborough: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:30] Jason Yarborough: And you're in there in the woods because like everyone's sleeping in glamping tents, with the exception of like eight people who get it indoor lodging this year.

[00:29:37] Sam Yarborough: So that's your jam signup now. 'cause those will go fast. 

[00:29:39] Jason Yarborough: They're almost gone. 

[00:29:40] Sam Yarborough: They're almost gone. Anyways, we'd love to see you there, Arcadia leadership experience.com com for more information. 

[00:29:47] Jason Yarborough: And big thanks to PartnerStack who's helping us pull this off yet again this year. 

[00:29:51] Sam Yarborough: Yep. Couldn't do it without 'em.

[00:29:53] Sam Yarborough: So we'll see you this summer in Montana, 

[00:29:56] Jason Yarborough: A LX 26. Y'all. Bruce.

[00:29:59] Sam Yarborough: you've mentioned the, the topic of self-regulation a few times. Like, I'd love to hear kind of how you define that, and kinda how you're helping leaders more, more address that and like be more comfortable like in that self-regulation and actualization.

[00:30:13] Casey Calkins: Yeah, I think, everybody assumes that leadership and empathy in leadership and EQ in leadership is all about the other people and the other person.  but there is a very real thing called emotional contagion. in psychology, and it has both mental and physical effects on yourself and the people that you're around.  there's been research studies on, if you, yourself as a leader have an elevated heart rate and you're stressed, it literally adjusts the heart rate of everyone else in the room. So it's like this looming undercurrent that everybody forgets, right? Is. How to, and there's this umbrella of self-regulation and self-management.

[00:30:54] Casey Calkins: That's both emotional regulation, as well as self-awareness.  it comes to emotional regulation, it's actively teaching yourself not to be reactive in the moment, which takes conscious effort. Makes me think

[00:31:10] Jason Yarborough: Yeah,

[00:31:11] Casey Calkins: I, I hate to go back to parenting, but seriously, parenting has been my best teacher in leadership.

[00:31:15] Sam Yarborough: no doubt.

[00:31:16] Casey Calkins: Like Dr. Becky needs to create a leadership course. I swear to God, you

[00:31:20] Sam Yarborough: Actually, she is a solid follow on LinkedIn

[00:31:23] Sam Yarborough: for that reason.

[00:31:25] Casey Calkins: Good. Inside everybody, like,

[00:31:28] Sam Yarborough: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:28] Casey Calkins: good. but like in that moment, being able to pause yourself and take a breath. And bring your own temperature down because there's so often when you're a leader that you're go go going and you exasperate and express stress, and that just rubs off on everyone on your team.

[00:31:45] Casey Calkins: I used to do this all the time. I was never great at it, but I, I'm trying to be better, you know, and I really made a conscious effort about it. So that's one piece. 

[00:32:01] Casey Calkins: The other piece is about self-awareness. I find that leaders that I coach fall into one of two buckets. They're either overconfident. They think that everything is great on their team and that they're doing a really good job, but they don't understand why nobody else on the team can keep up with what they're trying to ask of them.

[00:32:09] Casey Calkins: Like, why can nobody else? What the heck? Right? Or the other bucket is they think they're doing a terrible job all the time. I always fell into this bucket. they always think they're doing a terrible job they're never doing enough, and somebody's gonna find out that I just landed into this job because I got lucky. And that's the imposter syndrome time

[00:32:28] Sam Yarborough: Yeah, I was gonna say imposter syndrome, loud and lights there.

[00:32:31] Casey Calkins: and clear, right? but both of them come from this undercurrent of a distorted view of yourself. That's where both of them come from, and

[00:32:40] Jason Yarborough: Very much so

[00:32:41] Casey Calkins: that's the piece of eq, quote unquote eq, which is so hot right now. Everybody's talking about eq, but that's the piece that I feel like nobody's actually really addressing.

[00:32:50] Sam Yarborough: this is the first time I've heard this flipped from like an external,

[00:32:55] Sam Yarborough: my EQ to internal, and I think that that's a really. I mean, I, I'm kind of stuck in that thought right now of, I've never thought about it. 

[00:33:04] Jason Yarborough: I mean, if you think about it in the context of kids, yet again, it's like how our stress levels are, like around the house, around our kids, very much.

[00:33:09] Jason Yarborough: So they're gonna match that. Like they're gonna find that and grasp onto that. And I, I don't think it's any different people that we lead. And I think it's super important for leaders to understand that and be aware of that. And I think most companies, especially in this, like this tech world, are not talking about that.

[00:33:24] Sam Yarborough: No,

[00:33:26] Sam Yarborough: no.

[00:33:26] Casey Calkins: empathy and leadership, 

[00:33:28] Casey Calkins: Everybody's talking about compassionate leadership and maybe they'll dip their toe into self-confidence a little bit, right? Particularly in spaces of, women in roles of leadership. I think talk a

[00:33:38] Sam Yarborough: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:40] Casey Calkins: but this self piece, um, actually the, the founder of this whole idea of emotional intelligence, he said that self-awareness and self-management and self-regulation was a huge part of it.

[00:33:50] Casey Calkins: But in the corporate world, it seems to be ignored right now, which is really interest.

[00:33:55] Sam Yarborough: So I think this is so interesting 'cause what we talked to With our community and with people in Arcadia, Arcadia, litter means harmony. And that's part of it. It's like you can't be good externally as a leader unless you're paying attention internally. and we talk about that more holistically of like, you gotta pay attention to your health, your relationships, you know, all assets of your life mm-hmm.

[00:34:19] Sam Yarborough: In order to show up and be the best version of yourself for, for your team. I love this because it's a pretty scientific approach to this. 

[00:34:27] Sam Yarborough: talk to us, like are there any concrete practices or, rituals that you help leaders walk through to keep this top of mind for them?

[00:34:37] Casey Calkins: there's a few. some of them are going to come across as being very fluffy and trite or like, I've heard this, this, or, or basic, overly basic. Um,

[00:34:47] Sam Yarborough: best results come from simple things. Yeah.

[00:34:50] Casey Calkins: yeah. things like outside and taking a walk 

[00:34:54] Jason Yarborough: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:55] Casey Calkins: day. and

[00:34:56] Jason Yarborough: Without a device.

[00:34:57] Casey Calkins: Without a device. Right. So, but there's like sneaky things, like, and I used to succumb to some of this too. Like sometimes I'm like, well, I got outside today a couple times I took three, one-on-ones outside.

[00:35:07] Casey Calkins: That's great. You were walking while you had a one-on-one. That's fantastic. But you were still, you still had work on the brain.

[00:35:12] Casey Calkins: it's about vitamin D, about your mind and your body from work. 

[00:35:19] Jason Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:35:20] Casey Calkins: during the day, and I do think there is something to be said for that movement to be outdoors instead of indoors. I think that's regardless of the weather, my brother-in-law is Norwegian and he has a phrase that is, there is no bad weather. There's only bad clothes. And I know you two are in Montana, so you can appreciate that

[00:35:37] Jason Yarborough: Yeah,

[00:35:38] Jason Yarborough: very much so. Can appreciate that.

[00:35:39] Casey Calkins: have no excuse. I need to always

[00:35:41] Jason Yarborough: No, not at all. Yeah, I mean, it's just like what we, we do our events outside and they, I think the psychology manager is two hours in nature can completely rewire your brain. Yes. Just being outside any time is gonna help contribute and lead to that. And going back to how we kick things off, it's like stress plus rest equals recovery.

[00:35:58] Jason Yarborough: And if you're not taking breaks from that. Chronic stress and being on, you're just gonna continue to absorb as much of the stress and your, your cortisol levels are just gonna be at a constant spike 100% of the time. They won't be able to regulate the body. 

[00:36:11] Sam Yarborough: Okay. 

[00:36:17] Sam Yarborough: But I wanna ask you about this, Casey, 'cause I saw you just post about this, but I think the, current nomenclature, the current definition of rest is not rest.

[00:36:23] Jason Yarborough: Hmm.

[00:36:23] Sam Yarborough: so talk about that. How do you, how do you feel about that?

[00:36:27] Casey Calkins: Oh, it's so hard for me. I'm a type A achiever. Okay. 

[00:36:31] Sam Yarborough: I mean, same. I'm asking for a friend. 

[00:36:33] Jason Yarborough: I am not that friend. For, for the record.

[00:36:36] Casey Calkins: trying very hard to be better about true rest. I am discovering more and more that I'm disconnected from this world what true rest looks like for me. And it is through finding something that is for the pure joy of it and not for the productivity of it. for me, my restful event. Was my mom had some really pretty flowers outside, in her backyard, and I just asked her if I could pick them and take them home. And I made a couple of pretty arrangements for my house. That was some restful

[00:37:08] Sam Yarborough: And then you sold them, right?

[00:37:11] Casey Calkins: Did not sell them,

[00:37:12] Jason Yarborough: Started at Etsy shop. I built it through lovable.

[00:37:15] Casey Calkins: not rest. Uh, but that's where my brain always goes, Sam. I am

[00:37:20] Jason Yarborough: That's why I'm saying that because yes,

[00:37:22] Jason Yarborough: that person. You have to like actually consciously force yourself to not go there. Um,I mentioned you call it a wrestle, restful event.

[00:37:33] Casey Calkins: that's right.

[00:37:34] Jason Yarborough: Like an event, not so much like just resting. Like you've got to kind of train and wire your brain to think about it in the context of like a block of time or an event that I have to do and like to, or to make the body rest. And I think for those that are wired that way, I think that's very important to, to structure it in such a way.

[00:37:51] Casey Calkins: if you have to make it a task on your to-do list, fine. Make it a

[00:37:54] Jason Yarborough: Yeah,

[00:37:54] Casey Calkins: to-do list. Like,

[00:37:56] Jason Yarborough: I think Cal Newport actually has talks a lot about that, like schedule time for breaks.

[00:38:01] Casey Calkins: that's right. I've actually discovered myself, I recently came off of, I'm very fortunate that I have family that lives overseas, which is a very fun problem to have. So we went and spent Christmas in Norway with my brother and

[00:38:18] Jason Yarborough: Oh wow.

[00:38:18] Casey Calkins: live in Oslo, my husband and I intentionally for those two weeks.

[00:38:24] Casey Calkins: We were not working during that time. And my brother and sister-in-law are very good about. really not being connected to their devices all the time.

[00:38:35] Casey Calkins: so they were helping us to also unplug. what was interesting is I am someone that still to this day frequently get struggles with tension, headaches, cluster headaches, migraine, and I will get them a few times a month. But during those two weeks that I was there, I had not a single headache

[00:38:53] Sam Yarborough: Interesting. 

[00:38:54] Jason Yarborough: That's wild.

[00:38:54] Casey Calkins: outside every day. In the cold by the way, but we were outside every day because you have less bright light in the winter. You know the sun is up, sunrise is around 9, 9 30 in the morning. Sunset is around three in the afternoon. the culture is you maximize that

[00:39:13] Jason Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:39:13] Casey Calkins: of time to be outdoors. And we did that every day. I was not on this stupid thing hardly ever. I also, you know, and so I've been thinking a lot about what are some of those practices that I can bring back to my life now. And one of the things is, like you said, Jason, I literally am scheduling breaks into my calendar that when I'm sitting at a computer, at a desk, at a screen, I have an alert every two hours that says Get up and go outside. and I take a proper one hour lunch break.

[00:39:43] Casey Calkins: I 

[00:39:44] Sam Yarborough: What?

[00:39:44] Casey Calkins: not feasible. I know, but I know that's not feasible for a lot of people in tech. Right. It feels

[00:39:49] Jason Yarborough: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:49] Casey Calkins: do that even if it's 30 minutes. 

[00:39:55] Casey Calkins: The other, you were asking about other tips and tricks that I'll tell people. Mel Robbins talks about, she had some psychology person on that talked about the value of putting your phone in gray scale. 

[00:40:01] Sam Yarborough: Oh 

[00:40:02] Jason Yarborough: yeah. Yeah. I've got a few friends that do that.

[00:40:04] Casey Calkins: Have you guys ever done that?

[00:40:05] Jason Yarborough: I did it once upon a time. I think this was before we met like Matt, my buddy Matt used to do that for that very purpose. It's interesting.

[00:40:12] Casey Calkins: The only thing that's annoying about it is our phones are also our cameras now, and I like to take pictures and do stuff like

[00:40:18] Jason Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:40:19] Casey Calkins: kids. So my son actually taught me how to make it so that the button that normally puts it on silent actually makes it gray scale back and forth. 

[00:40:28] Sam Yarborough: Wow. 

[00:40:30] Jason Yarborough: Can your son teach me that? 

[00:40:32] Sam Yarborough: I know. We might need to have him on to do a tutorial. 

[00:40:34] Jason Yarborough: Jesus

[00:40:35] Jason Yarborough: did. 

[00:40:35] Casey Calkins: Okay. He's

[00:40:37] Jason Yarborough: Damn it.

[00:40:38] Casey Calkins: Um, something with your settings, we'll put it in the show notes. Do you guys have show notes? Is that a

[00:40:42] Sam Yarborough: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll figure it out. 

[00:40:44] Jason Yarborough: We'll, we'll, uh, we'll reference, uh, your 10-year-old son. 

[00:40:46] Sam Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:40:48] Casey Calkins: but, he showed me how to do that and I consciously put that on as of, I keep it on that most of the time and

[00:40:55] Sam Yarborough: I am gonna have to try this now.

[00:40:56] Jason Yarborough: Yeah, 

[00:40:57] Casey Calkins: be on my phone as much.

[00:40:58] Sam Yarborough: no, I mean if you're listening and you want to be on your phone as much, like, let us know. 'cause I think that nobody does. No, we just are.

[00:41:08] Casey Calkins: we just are,

[00:41:09] Sam Yarborough: Yeah. 

[00:41:09] Jason Yarborough: If you're of working age, I mean, if you're like 16 listening to this podcast and you always wanna be on your phone, well, 

[00:41:13] Sam Yarborough: you're 16 and you're listening to this podcast, I still wanna hear from you.

[00:41:18] Casey Calkins: it just becomes like a, I'm only on my phone to do that one task.

[00:41:23] Jason Yarborough: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:41:23] Casey Calkins: You know, it's less of the like scrolling be across apps. Do I don't get sucked into do doom scrolling, 

[00:41:30] Casey Calkins: as much. that's another kind of like hack that I've really embraced. 

[00:41:34] Sam Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:41:35] Casey Calkins: sure have it on gray scale as of like four in the afternoon every day.

[00:41:40] Casey Calkins: And it does not go back under color because that's about turning your brain off so that you can actually go to sleep at night.

[00:41:44] Sam Yarborough: 

[00:41:44] Jason Yarborough: Okay. I wish, I kinda wish I could switch back and forth on phones. Like I could transfer, like get my phone to work on a flip phone, use a flip phone for the weekends and like iPhone for work. 

[00:41:53] Sam Yarborough: Yeah. But like the reality is nobody calls you on the weekends. No. Like, no. 

[00:41:57] Jason Yarborough: But like a friend likes to

[00:41:59] Jason Yarborough: pick it up your phone more on the weekends, which you don't really need to.

[00:42:02] Jason Yarborough: Nobody calls me anyway except for you

[00:42:04] Casey Calkins: Gosh, 

[00:42:05] Casey Calkins: Tell me in your midlife without telling me you're in your midlife. Nobody calls me

[00:42:08] Sam Yarborough: I know

[00:42:08] Casey Calkins: the weekends.

[00:42:10] Jason Yarborough: nobody. Nobody calls me. 

[00:42:11] Sam Yarborough: Period. We're all together. Yeah, yeah, true. Nobody calls you period. 

[00:42:13] Jason Yarborough: Except for my mom. 

[00:42:14] Sam Yarborough: Okay, so. 

[00:42:16] Sam Yarborough: Let's like just playing devil's advocate here. Somebody's listening to this and they're like, yeah, okay, this sounds great, but like impossible for my life. Like I am leading a team.

[00:42:26] Sam Yarborough: I'm a leader in a tech company. This is the way it has to be. What do you say to them?

[00:42:31] Casey Calkins: I say that the worst that could happen if they give it a try is that they question what they're doing and your life. Sorry, this is extreme, but your life is really important. Your life is

[00:42:43] Jason Yarborough: Mm.

[00:42:44] Casey Calkins: than your job. life is more important than your professional identity. It's more than your job, right? A lot of us have wrapped into our jobs, our professional identity.

[00:42:54] Jason Yarborough: least giving it a try, I would question if they've actually given it a try to see what happens. But when you do try and it doesn't work, if you have truly tried and it's not working. Then it's time to question, is it, is this the time for a change? And that's what ended up happening for me, I was other things more that job that I had than that

[00:43:19] Jason Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:43:19] Casey Calkins: I had. 

[00:43:20] Jason Yarborough: How often do you, do you see that happen in others?

[00:43:23] Casey Calkins: you know, here's the crazy thing is, um. I think a lot of times people some sort of an event in their life that has them questioning why, why they've been doing this.

[00:43:35] Jason Yarborough: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:35] Casey Calkins: what forces them into that of my life is more important than all of this, and it will be something that usually happens around all of our age. I think we're all in a similar phase of life. it could be becoming a parent. It could be a major recession that puts you into a position of doing things in the business that maybe you personally don't align with.

[00:43:59] Sam Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:44:00] Casey Calkins: could be a strong values shift. You know, I mean, YouTube, both were ex corporate as well, starting Arcadia. I'm curious to know, what were those moments for you that made you decide things weren't working anymore? Something, it, it, you know, it's either gonna work and try to make things work within this realm and be the change or it's not working and I've tried and I need to go be the change somewhere else, right?

[00:44:21] Sam Yarborough: I've talked about this a lot on the show, and you and I, Casey have talked about this, but that identity shift was a huge thing that I didn't anticipate.

[00:44:29] Sam Yarborough: so that was kind of shocking. the other thing that I wanna just like, and I'm not ignoring your question, we can come back to it, but I wanna.

[00:44:37] Sam Yarborough: Stop here for a second and just acknowledge. 'cause I feel like a lot of people dismiss conversations like this because it feels very privileged to be able to have them.

[00:44:46] Casey Calkins: a hundred percent.

[00:44:47] Sam Yarborough: but I also feel like there is still a choice in that. it's not all or nothing, at least from my perspective. I wanna hear your perspective on that.

[00:44:57] Casey Calkins: I actually really appreciate you saying that because I always try to say like, I know that I'm coming from a place of tremendous privilege you know, a lot of people feel like I can't just quit my job. it is still a choice. Everything in our life is ultimately a choice. And there are people throughout the history of time that have found ways to pave their own way.

[00:45:16] Casey Calkins: Everything is trade-offs

[00:45:18] Casey Calkins: and financially. This has been a really hard decision for me,

[00:45:23] Casey Calkins: I think that's an important thing to acknowledge. It's not easy leaving. The comforts and the security of a corporate job.

[00:45:31] Casey Calkins: It's a major shift and we are now in the position where we are a a dual entrepreneur household, similar to where you guys are at. Our household is in the same, and there are a lot of hardships that go along with that. There is a tremendous amount of privilege in feeling that you can do that, that you can make that happen. The other side to that coin is there are a lot of people in far less privileged circumstances than I am that are making these same choices that I am making. I hope that comes across.

[00:46:04] Sam Yarborough: Yeah, and I think that, you know, it's easy to listen to these conversations and be like, well, the only way forward is to quit my job, and

[00:46:11] Sam Yarborough: I don't know that that's.

[00:46:12] Casey Calkins: it.

[00:46:12] Sam Yarborough: I don't know that that's true, like I think it's the way that we can show up for ourselves and kind of make that space for simple things like you're saying, like go for a walk.

[00:46:23] Sam Yarborough: try to carve out that space so that your job doesn't become the only thing that you have and you do like

[00:46:29] Sam Yarborough: reclaim that identity outside of it. Find the space to. Get a breath of fresh air, stop looking at your phone. Like, you know, these kinds of things really do make a difference, as simple as they are,

[00:46:40] Jason Yarborough: a hundred percent.

[00:46:40] Casey Calkins: would also say I, I would challenge like if you've actually tried doing some of those things, and the other level is What are you doing that is fulfilling your identity outside of your work?

[00:46:51] Sam Yarborough: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:52] Casey Calkins: you love pickleball, are you playing pickleball? Do you ever play pickleball? And you might say, I do with co with coworkers, you know, or I know a lot of people like to golf and they'll golf with coworkers.

[00:47:03] Casey Calkins: But that's still a work identity, right?

[00:47:06] Casey Calkins: Like, what do you have? That was a big, shift for me when I left the corporate world was the identity outside of work and finding friendships and relationships and interests outside of things that were even remotely connected to

[00:47:19] Sam Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:47:21] Casey Calkins: Um. I think that's a huge piece of it.

[00:47:22] Casey Calkins: There's also a lot to be said for what you said, Sam. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. It is very realistic too that the answer is actually downshifting. Before I left corporate, I was actually pursuing the possibility of switching roles completely and just downshifting and taking a, like a, like a parallel sidestep downward, uh,

[00:47:43] Jason Yarborough: looking to take on less responsibility then.

[00:47:45] Casey Calkins: Less responsibility, which also meant less pay. But like that also requires some inner work on your professional identity to get over your ego. Right?

[00:47:54] Sam Yarborough: Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

[00:47:56] Casey Calkins: also an answer, that shouldn't be ignored. 

[00:47:59] Sam Yarborough: I think the ego part is really interesting 'cause I think that we can all get into these roles and we get comfortable with the title, the salary, the stress. It all just becomes like the familiar way we look at the world and it's hard to, it's hard to take a perspective shift and say like, I will be okay.

[00:48:17] Jason Yarborough: 

[00:48:17] Sam Yarborough: With maybe less, maybe different, maybe new even that, just the unknown of all of that is scary for people, but.

[00:48:24] Sam Yarborough: There are other options. You will be okay. 

[00:48:26] Jason Yarborough: Yeah. The other thing I was reading in that book I was talking about this morning is that like, it talks about kind of what you're, you're saying here, Casey, it's like find if you're gonna endure some stress, find things that are meaningful and that matter to you, and it's like that's, that's one way that you're just gonna be able to overcome, like.

[00:48:42] Jason Yarborough: Stressful situations, scenarios, like most people,

[00:48:45] Jason Yarborough: I would say, if we use the word like lack purpose around what they're doing and how do you, you know, overcome that. Like find something that's meaningful to you. Find something that matters to you and like, give yourself to that as much as you can. Whether it's, you know, your restful event doing something for me, like I know movement matters and like that changes the, my whole psyche.

[00:49:04] Jason Yarborough: With my movement practice, whether it's running, working out, or doing something, like I have to do it. It matters. It's meaningful to me. And there's other things, right? So find those things that are meaningful and that matter to you, and I think that will begin to change the whole scenario and outlook of your, of your days.

[00:49:19] Casey Calkins: I think the key and the linchpin to that is finding your purpose and your identity in some of those things. 

[00:49:26] Jason Yarborough: Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:26] Casey Calkins: hard if you realize like, this is not sustainable for me, I need to. Maybe make a shift is the very real feelings of failure that you are going to feel if you have hung your hat in your identity on that role that you've always sought for and, and fought to achieve. I certainly dealt

[00:49:42] Sam Yarborough: I am just gonna say, yep, I've been there.

[00:49:44] Casey Calkins: felt like a total failure,

[00:49:46] Sam Yarborough: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:46] Casey Calkins: think I'm a sellout or I couldn't hack it, or I wasn't strong enough.

[00:49:50] Sam Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:49:52] Casey Calkins: my view of. Success as a whole person over-indexed Based on my title and my performance and my paycheck,

[00:50:01] Sam Yarborough: Yeah. Okay. 

[00:50:05] Sam Yarborough: So to, to close this out, what do you want listeners, leaders, to walk away from this conversation with? Like, is there a single thesis or statement that you think is really something people should carry forward?

[00:50:14] Casey Calkins: it is all gonna be okay. With or without you in it. The

[00:50:19] Sam Yarborough: That hurts.

[00:50:20] Casey Calkins: team.

[00:50:23] Jason Yarborough: None of this needs you.

[00:50:23] Casey Calkins: truth.

[00:50:25] Sam Yarborough: It is truth. Yeah.

[00:50:26] Casey Calkins: Everyone's gonna be okay with or without you in it. And if you have to step away and you feel like it's impossible,

[00:50:33] Sam Yarborough: I.

[00:50:33] Casey Calkins: challenge you to ask. yourself, have I actually ever put that to the test to see what happens? Does that sting

[00:50:42] Sam Yarborough: I mean,

[00:50:43] Sam Yarborough: no, no, I, it's funny because every time we have a conversation on this podcast, we get off and I look at Jason, I was like, well, that was, that was a therapy session for me. Yeah.

[00:50:55] Sam Yarborough: Casey, this has been awesome. I mean, I think you're doing really important work in the world and speaking out about your experience.

[00:51:01] Sam Yarborough: a is super brave and vulnerable, but it opens up the door for people to, to take pause and inventory mm-hmm. And, you know, look at their lives. So thank you for doing that.

[00:51:11] Casey Calkins: yeah, I hope it helps somebody.

[00:51:13] Sam Yarborough: Totally. 

[00:51:14] Jason Yarborough: Absolutely. 

[00:51:15] Sam Yarborough: If somebody wants to know more or even work with you, what does that look like? How do they find you?

[00:51:20] Casey Calkins: Yeah. Um, easiest way would either be through LinkedIn to find me, Casey Calkins is, where you can find me, or you can look at my website, c2itpartners.com. It's the letter C, the number two, it partners.com.

[00:51:34] Jason Yarborough: I was hoping that's how it went. Hence the, the CC Casey Calkins.

[00:51:38] Casey Calkins: That's exactly, you got it. that's

[00:51:40] Sam Yarborough: I just, I just discovered this C squared. That's awesome.

[00:51:43] Casey Calkins: and a play on words. It also

[00:51:45] Jason Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:51:46] Casey Calkins: really interesting quote from author Octavia Butler she decided she wanted to be an author. She was a young child and she wrote in her journal, so be it. See to it.

[00:51:54] Sam Yarborough: I love that so much. 

[00:51:56] Jason Yarborough: So be it. See to it.

[00:51:58] Sam Yarborough: That's

[00:51:58] Sam Yarborough: so great.

[00:51:59] Sam Yarborough: Um, I will say from experience, she's a solid LinkedIn follow. Every time I read one of your posts, I. Feel grateful for it. So Casey, thank you so much for joining us today. 

[00:52:09] Jason Yarborough: Yeah.

[00:52:10] Jason Yarborough: This was wonderful.

[00:52:10] Casey Calkins: this is a great convo.

[00:52:12] Sam Yarborough: Agreed. Agreed. All right, friends, go be great in the world.

[00:52:16] Sam Yarborough: Go take care of yourselves. 

[00:52:17] Jason Yarborough: Yeah, 

[00:52:18] Sam Yarborough: get off your freaking phone if you're walking and listening to us. We appreciate you, but stop.

[00:52:22] Casey Calkins: Ask your ask your 10-year-old how to put your phone in gray scale.

[00:52:26] Jason Yarborough: Exactly. They'll tell you apparently. 

[00:52:29] Sam Yarborough: Alright friends, we'll see you next time. Thanks so much.