Elle Sera

Laura Jennings (Nutrition Expert): Why Everything You Thought About Cheese, Seed Oils & Health Is Wrong!

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0:00 | 1:03:33

Chapters:

00:00 Meet Laura Jennings
00:49 Seed Oils Panic
02:44 Ultra Processed Reality
05:38 Movement Over Myths
09:34 Healthy Fats Basics
11:03 Breakfast And Nuance
14:07 Intermittent Fasting Risks
16:30 Menopause Body Changes
21:43 GLP One Debate
27:20 Food Industry And Trauma
31:33 Food Mood Research
33:06 Omega 3 Supplement Talk
33:55 Supplement Dosing Synergy
35:35 Active Forms Matter
36:15 Probiotics Strains and Food
39:11 Gut Testing and Leaky Gut
43:55 Food First Not Powders
47:02 Protein Targets and Tracking
49:03 Ultra Processed Protein Traps
50:35 Simple Meals Busy Life
53:56 Kids and Junk Food Everywhere
56:17 Carnivore Sugar and Obesity
01:01:12 No Hacks Do the Basics
01:02:16 Influence Through Habits
01:03:16 Final Wrap and Thanks

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SPEAKER_03

Welcome back to the LTR Podcast. And today I'm joined by nutritionist and technical writer Laura Jennings.

SPEAKER_02

How are you, Laura? I'm good. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_03

It's nice to you're back in the country and I've snaggled you for one of the days you're back because she's actually in Australia. But she was back in London. I said, please come to Liverpool, let's do a podcast. Yeah. So it's nice that you're here. Um you've done a bit of technical writing for El SRR in the past. I have. Yeah, to do anything with it yet, but I have it there ready if anybody asks me. Um so you've seen the back end of our supplements, etc. But um really value opinion. Um, think you're great. I love talking to nutritionists. And also, you know where you're at in the industry. Supplements is a minefield, but because you're a technical writer and you do a lot of compliance for lots of brands, don't you?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You know lots of things that maybe the audience wouldn't. So I feel like they're going to learn a lot today. Um but before we begin, there's one thing that irks me a lot on social media. And people have jumped on this trend just to sell really expensive olive oil, and they are just condemning seed oils left, right, and centre. I will just say right now that I am somebody who does not even care about seed oils. If it's if a product's got seed oils in, like it's got it's like a crisps or whatever in it, it's got seed oils in the crisp or whatever products it might be. I don't care.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Am I right to be thinking like that?

SPEAKER_02

Or yes. So it's about the diet quality as a whole, not just one single aspect that's in the product. I think why seed oils have got such a bad reputation is because they're mostly in a lot of ultra-processed foods. And so obviously, if your diet is made up consistently of ultra-processed foods, it's linked to more chronic disease and uh more inflammation and things like that. Seed oils aren't the problem, it's the overall quality of the diet. And they're in things like I hear people switching their milks is quite a common one because they've got seed oils in and things like that. If the if your diet as a whole is good, having a little bit of oat milk with some seed oils in is not going to do anything. Um, they contain an omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acid, and that has in the past been linked to inflammation. However, there is no current evidence that it causes inflammation long term. Seed oils are fine. It's it's the ultra-processed kind of environment that they're in. And I think more things to be paying attention to are the products that we're consuming daily, like things like white bread, even in the supermarket, and I'm not talking about your sourdough and things like that. If you look at the ingredients list, they're like this long, which is crazy because a lot of people having bread every day, sometimes you know, twice a day, it's part of you know, healthy, kind of balanced diet. Um, but we've moved so far away, I think, from what's considered you know, food. And I also run a clinic in Melbourne, and that is probably the biggest thing I see is I work with a lot of you know people who work in you know corporate, they're in the city, and they're eating out for breakfast, lunch, dinner. And that itself isn't the problem, but the quality of the choices that they're making is obviously they're basically having takeout for you know three meals a day.

SPEAKER_03

And give me an example of what they'd be eating for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

SPEAKER_02

Oh goodness. So a lot of them skip breakfast, they wouldn't have breakfast and then go straight to lunch, and it would be, you know, like burger, chicken schnitzel, things like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And it's we're not thinking meal, I'm thinking mail dill in my head.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, no. So everyone thinks obviously Australia is associated with, you know, really healthy, and there are pockets like that, like, you know, face like Bundai where wellness is really in your face, but there's a lot of um, there's limited, I would say, like fresh food option options. Um particularly.

SPEAKER_03

I mean the propaganda that I get sold by Australia, it would make me believe that everybody looks like Brad off neighbours and um everyone's like absolutely gorgeous and like super healthy and you know, being ripped surfing on the beach. Yeah, there are there are I'm not thinking about them eating burgers and schnitzels. Yeah, maybe the piss ads and it I do know they're they're drinking a lot.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. So it's quite a huge alcohol culture. And I was the same before I moved, I thought it was like that. And there are pockets like that, like Bondi. If you go down there at 5 a.m., everyone's coming back. How big is Bundai though from their morning workout? Not not that big. Like two streets. Yeah. And there are, you know, there is a big wellness culture also in Melbourne, but I would say it's a little bit harder to find. It's not as kind of in your face, but yeah, there people are eating out a lot, and you know, the food is higher in kind of refined sugars, refined oils, um, extra calories. And I always say to people, if kind of you know, weight management and kind of you know lessening inflammation is your goal, then the biggest thing you can do is just cook from scratch and prep your food.

SPEAKER_03

Definitely. So I think people are blaming seed oils for what is really being caused by ultra-processed food.

SPEAKER_02

Correct. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I I would completely agree with that. Can I just say that I am somebody who doesn't give a shit about seed oils whatsoever? But I don't eat ultra-processed food. And I went for my neco health scan, blood tests, everything. They said my level of inflammation was absolutely unbelievable. Wow. He said you are an optimum. He literally couldn't get more optimized on the scale.

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_03

And and I literally have never been in, I've never looked at a seed oil in my life.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And that's the thing. I think it's that holistic component of like how, you know, how you're living your life. Um, and even things like, you know, that Harvard study that came out recently is looking at like social connections, it's like a massive one. You know, are you sedentary throughout the day? Things like that. Um, all of those factors are are what contribute to inflammation, not a particular seed oil.

SPEAKER_03

I completely agree with you. I would say that I've actually put this on my Instagram before. I've said, like, the people who are whingered about seed oil, honestly, I would be whingered about your lack of locomotion.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Just your body is made to move. I would move that before I'd be worried about the tiny bit of seed oil that's in your oat milk. I really would.

SPEAKER_02

100%. I always say though to people, to be healthy in today's society, I do feel like it's swimming upstream. Yeah. Because the way the corporate world, most people, right, I I mean, we're self-employed, but most people work a nine to five. And the way the corporate world is structured, you're in work for such a long time, it makes it really hard to kind of get your movement in, you know, cook three healthy meals a day. It's really challenging.

SPEAKER_03

I can well, I'll just be honest, uh completely honest. I'm struggling to get 10,000 steps in, even though I am striving for it. I'm trying to move every time I go to the toilet and work, I run around the building. Yeah. Just to get that extra move. And in if I'm on the phone, I walk around.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And I'm still only managing to get 5,000 in. Yeah. Because I like drive to work, pick my little girl up, and then that's it, really. Once I've got her, she's bath bedtime.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And then no one else is in. I can't just go out for a walk in the evening. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I'm struggling and I'm actively trying to do it. So I I do get at how it can be difficult. And I'm trying to put in, I don't know. I work for myself, so I'm a bit like, yeah, well, I could do what I want. I could go to the gym all day if I wanted, but I don't think that's good for progress of the team, or when people need answers from me and I'm like, I'm in the gym, stop bothering me.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. On that, the most impactful thing you can do is even if you can't get 10,000 steps a day, and because that is a lot to achieve, and it is hard to do. Um, so you know, I want to make that clear it's not an easy thing to just like you know fit into your day. Incidental movement is great. So, you know, if you are able to, you know, take the escalator or take the stairs and so you know, things like that can really be helpful.

SPEAKER_03

So I park further away now from where the door is.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

If I can. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, exactly. Things like that. And also the most impactful thing is actually walking after you've eaten your meal to bring your blood sugar down. So even if it's like five to ten minutes, I always tell people after you've eaten, just go for um a little walk around the block.

SPEAKER_03

I'm totally on that wave line. And then I feel like you would be if me and you went for dinner, I'd be like, okay, should we finish up here and then should we walk around to how let's like mooch around the shops or something? You'd be like, Yeah, that's great, let's do that. But when I'm out with certain groups of people, if I said to them, is it all right if we you know, everyone wants to sit around and have a bottle of wine then?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Do you know what I mean? And I'm a bit like, can we just get up and go for a walk?

SPEAKER_02

Exactly that.

SPEAKER_03

They would not be, yeah, they wouldn't, they would not, and then if if do you mind if I just go for a walk, then I'm ostracizing myself in the social group.

SPEAKER_02

A hundred percent. And I think what you've just said there is the problem. It's like the culture that we're living in isn't really conducive to like healthy living. And I think like if you are living like that, like I've been sort of, you know, living that kind of way for a long time. And I remember when I started, people were like, What are you doing? You know, and and you do feel, I mean, I've got friends now, obviously I did my nutrition masters, and like everyone's of like a similar mindset. So I've met some you know amazing friends doing that, but yeah, before you do feel like a bit isolated in kind of like how you live in your habits, yeah, in terms of like your habits, and you know, people always like pay to see me and and when I tell them what to do, it's it's hard, you know, it's not like a magic fix, and you know, the basics are what move the needle, which is like sleep movement, you know, things like that.

SPEAKER_03

But I think if I'd I just I've got like a scenario in my head where I actually thought about this because we had a big Sunday roast around at someone's house, and there was like 15 of us there, and like the kids are there or anything. And I really felt like saying, Is it all right for going for a walk on the backfield? And I know if I'd have left there, gone, it would be like, look at a weirdo doing her own thing, blah blah blah. Do you know what I mean? Like, and then you're almost like calling them out for not doing it as well. Um, like people take offense, oh have you had a walk, have you? Yeah, do you know what I mean? Feel better, do you? Do you know you can understand, can't you? 100%. So then you just think I won't bother.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Although you do get some people, I think more people than not now will actually want to do that.

SPEAKER_03

I'd uh never for that. Not in the scenario I'm thinking of.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. And I think it does depend on who you're with, and obviously, like people's individual habits.

SPEAKER_03

I haven't got many friends that are up for that.

SPEAKER_02

You need to get some wellness friends.

SPEAKER_03

I know. I just need some friends to be honest. I haven't got any. Um, okay. So if people want to like cook healthier tomorrow, should they be ditching vegetable oils?

SPEAKER_02

Not necessarily. I still think olive oil is a great option, and I think you know, healthy fats in general are is anything that potentially isn't solid at room temperature. So saturated fats are like butters, margarines, things like that. They they need to be in small, small quantities. Something that really shocked me the other day is um cheese. So I did a blog post talking about the probiotics in cheese. Um, cheese is actually really rich in sort of beneficial bacteria for the gut. And apparently we should only be having a thumb's worth, which is tiny. Yeah, like a tiny amount, right?

SPEAKER_03

Are we talking full thumb at the end of your thumb?

SPEAKER_02

So I I would say full thumb because I just think like I little girl is like that with the grated cheese. Well, even for me, like I definitely have way more than that. Like, you know, great cheese for your pasta, like it just seems tiny, but saturated fat really is you know, small amounts. The healthy fats are olive oil, avocado, you know, oily fish, things like that. That's what we should be kind of loading up on. Um, vegetable oils, again, are fine. It's it's the coming back to the thing about moderation, you know, no no kind of food is bad if the collective way that you're living is out.

SPEAKER_03

But if you're having like, I don't know, a good two, three teaspoons, take tablespoons of it three times a day, it's gonna start compounding in the wrong direction.

SPEAKER_02

And it is obviously really kind of calorie dense as well. So that is something to be mindful of with any kind of you know, oils and vegetable oils and things like that.

SPEAKER_03

Would you say that breakfast is necessary?

SPEAKER_02

I would say yes as a whole. And something I actually get my clients to do, which um some people love and some people hate, is that idea of you know, like eat like a king. So we're most active, you know, during the day. That's when our brains are burning the most energy. And yet we tend to a lot of people skip or have our smallest meal for breakfast because that's when we're busy, right? We're trying to get out the door, take kids to daycare, things like that. Um if you flip it, so you're having your biggest meal at the start of the day, that I would say is probably the healthiest for kind of blood sugar, gut health, um, because your gut's not working, having to work as hard in the evening, and then we're sort of going to bed. So for everything, I think it's actually better to have your bigger meal at the start of the day. And collectively, evidence as a whole, I would say there it does it's very in like imbalance the evidence, but as a whole, it does tend to support eating breakfast is kind of better for weight management and markers.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I'm just I would I mean, I'm terrible. Black coffee, maybe then a second black coffee when I'm on my drive, and I'll about go to Starbucks, get some egg bites, that'll be it till tea time, probably.

SPEAKER_02

But with this as well, I would say, and you know, we were talking about this before, but there is a huge individual difference component where everyone's body is different. And you know, I get so many clients that say I feel sick in the morning or things I don't feel hungry. And I think that's important information as well, like to listen to your body. Um, and we are all built differently, and it's like there was that big trend, you know, having coffee increases your cortisol and things like that. For some people, it actually doesn't. Um, and so in nutrition, that's kind of my bugbear with the industry is that there is very much like a blanket claim or statement.

SPEAKER_03

This is why I mean I I've written a little list on my phone that's like 10 things I would never do as a supplement owner or somebody, a woman in the wellness space that maybe looks at things more than the average Joe. Like I would never buy like a plan of a PT online because what's gonna work for a 20-year-old girl who's maybe done the plan is not gonna work for a 55-year-old woman going through menopause. A hundred years, you know, things like that. And I'm a bit like, well, and you're also not gonna have the same results as her who's 20, or her who's 30, or her who's just turned 40 if you're 55 and 60. Yeah. So don't be expecting to get those results that you think. And that's why one plan that's 47 pounds online, you can ludicrous.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, 100%. I couldn't agree more. And that nuance is so important. And you know, genetically, like how our metabolisms work, we're also different. Um, how active we are is a massive one that affects, you know, metabolic rate and things like that. And when people come and see me, most of the work we're doing is actually me learning about their lifestyle and like their current habits. You know, do they have kids, for example? Are they in the office versus work from home? Because what I prescribe them will be very different to someone who is self-employed, you know, at home, able to cook three meals a day from scratch.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So, you know, lifestyle and like how your your current lifestyle setup is so, so important for any kind of change that you're wanting to make.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. Um intermittent fasting. Do you think there is a difference between males and females with when it regards to intermittent fasting?

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_03

Do you rate it for females?

SPEAKER_02

So again, coming back to that individual difference, I have women who love it and say that they've got great results on it. I my issue with intermittent fasting is I don't think it works long term in either men or women. I think that there comes a point, and all the all the evidence to date has been, you know, short term. Um I think it hits a point and it actually is doesn't do anything. And there's been some new evidence coming out about intermittent fasting and how there is no kind of additional benefit. But for women in particular, when you fast, you are applying stress on the body in any kind of way. So if you are going through, you know, peromenopause or menopause, your cortisol generally speaking, not for everybody, but generally speaking, does sit naturally that little bit higher. And there are, you know, other people, if you have like anxiety or anything else going on, that stress can also be unproductive and it can lead to increased fat storage around the abdominals in particular. So if you're a menopausal woman, I would say just blanketly, like, don't do it. Don't do it. Yeah. And in general, I haven't seen anyone in clinic, I'm yet to meet them, who intermittent fasting has worked well as a strategy for long term. Even the men that come and see me will say, I did intermittent fasting. It worked for maybe one to two weeks, maybe longer, maybe a month, and then it I didn't have any effect.

SPEAKER_03

It depends what result they're looking for. What are they? I think people just do all these things for weight loss. Correct. So that's the thing is weight loss. They're not thinking about clearing out the system, you know, autophagy. They're not thinking about those things. They just want to look better, yeah, leaner.

SPEAKER_02

A hundred percent. So I can talk to the demographic of people I've seen, and obviously I'm in to my clinic is actually in a gym specific for menopause. So I do see a lot of people, you know, in that kind of 40s to 60s age category. Um, and most of the people that come in, they're either for gut health or um weight loss. Yeah. I've had maybe one or two people that have come in for kind of just general optimization or longevity, but most people are weight loss. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It's interesting. I I mean, I've got friends who are like 50 now. I'd but I've met them in their 40s. Very fit, really, you know, could give me a run for my money big time in terms of fitness, like wow, mega. Especially when I was at my fittest, they were super fit as well. I was like, fucking hell, this is hard work. And uh to watch the difference in their physical shape in 10 years is unbelievable, actually. Unbelievable, and they're doing exactly the same things that they used to do, yeah, but now they are carrying all the weight around their abdominals, yeah. And it's something that shocked me. And I thought, I'm 40 now, I need to get in front of this, yeah, because I don't want this to happen. Yeah. I mean, is it inevitable?

SPEAKER_02

So I I don't think it is. I mean, you probably see on Instagram there's a lot of um influences in that generation, and they've got like you know, six pack Yeah, well eight packs.

SPEAKER_03

Oh my god, yeah. But like what are they injecting? What are they doing?

SPEAKER_02

I know, and there was a lady actually that came on your podcast, and I'm gonna forget her name, she was an older lady.

SPEAKER_03

Um Georgia?

SPEAKER_02

No, beginning with you, she was an actress. Uh Jenny Powell? No, and she was saying some amazing things about how you look after your body.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, was it Glenis? Yes, barber, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, okay, sorry, I couldn't remember her name, but um, she was saying that, and I do think personally, I do think the earlier you start it is like I I hate to compare it to like investing, but like com like compounding. And obviously, if you do sort of accrue abdominal weight, like it is harder to lose once you get been doing it for kind of 30 years. So I think definitely what she was saying about starting early and kind of implementing those healthy habits, like in your 30s and things like that, is really conducive to kind of an easier time. I think with abdominal weight gain in menopause, obviously estrogen is dropping off, and that's what's really protective of inflammation. Um, and it's like when we're, you know, menstruating, things like that, estrogen and progesterone are fluctuating, and that's why we get a bit more bloated around that time of the month, and it's the same sort of thing. So a lot of the time it is kind of a hormonal thing. I I'm obviously not that age, so I can't speak from experience, but I have also seen people who don't have um that abdominal patch. It also really depends, you know, like how again, how you've lived your life like collectively and and things like that.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so I spent a long time with Chat GPT putting in, you know, my thoughts on there. So they were like, yeah, you're right. Number one thing it said weight training.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, three times a week. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And I thought, well, I I so I'm really on that at the moment. Movement. I mean, I I have good habits, I don't overeat. I'm limited, I limit myself every single day to sixteen hundred calories a day, there or thereabouts.

SPEAKER_02

Interesting, okay.

SPEAKER_03

Um, I feel that that's right for my activity level, yeah, where I want to be, weight-wise. And I stay, I have been the same weight, apart from being pregnant, consistently without trying for the last three years.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

62 kilos, bang on. Yeah. And I mean, literally, I will jockey around that. Maybe I've dropped to 61, maybe I've been up to 63, but I always stay around the same one. For me to push in either direction would be difficult.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_03

It would be difficult to go any lower now without really putting my mind to it. Yes, I could do it, but I would sacrifice my life.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Or and to put on weight, I'd have to really like be like going after it. Do you know what I mean? Really letting myself relax.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, 100%. Do you know what you've said there? I actually think not many people speak about it, but I actually think it's a really important marker of health, you know, like to actually be able to like maintain your weight the same way over a number of years. Because like if you're getting, you know, periods of sickness and ill and you're dropping weight and then finding it hard to regain, like that isn't necessarily healthy. Um, so I think that's a really good sign that you're kind of yeah, optimized.

SPEAKER_03

I definitely am, but I'm also worried about the future.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Like, you know what I mean? I I'm trying to build all these habits in now, and I think a lot of people anybody who's my age at 40 will also be thinking the same things.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You don't want to be getting a thicker waist and putting on loads of weight around because you at the moment women put on the weight around their bum and their hips.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

But then it all travels up to the stomach.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And you see it, they go that apple shape, don't they?

SPEAKER_02

But what you've just said before about like the resistance from eating, that I think, and also eating enough protein is really important. There's something called the um protein leverage hypothesis, which in menopause, your protein requirements actually increase. And instead of what a lot of women do is actually increase their calories from other sources. And it's that increase in calories from other sources that's also driving the weight up. Another thing women tend to do is also intermittent fasting. So as soon as they see that weight creeping up, a lot of people will go crash diet. That's it, exactly that crash diet. And it's actually really counterproductive to um weight loss. And people will start doing things like HIIT training whilst fasting and things like that. And it's basically putting the body under more stress when your cortisol is already sitting that bit higher. So that's where I think a lot of people go wrong is actually it's like panic, um, panic habits, whatever you want.

SPEAKER_03

Well now we have the wonderful world of GLP ones.

SPEAKER_02

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And you can see how they are so appealing. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_01

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03

Uh what what do you think overall? I mean, obviously they came out and they were for people who were like close to death, you know. I mean. Pre-diabetic or diabetic to get them back to baseline, try and you know alleviate some pressure on the NHS and in America everywhere else. We're not seeing that on the whole. Yes, we there are people who really need it who are using it, but there's lots of people who are maybe my size or slightly bigger and using it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

That's the problem. It's become so unregulated, and where it was for medical purposes, like in case of like diabetes, where there is great evidence for it, like you know, you can't deny. Um, but it's it's it's got so um unregulated now, and I think that's that's the issue.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So do again, in men, so I can imagine if you're a menopausal woman, you've put on some weight, you know, you're thinking, oh my god, I don't look like I used to look when I was 30 or 40. Yes. Can't fit into my clothes, I'm depressed, you know what I mean? You're getting upset, you're looking older. I get it. I feel like I literally went through my Facebook today because trying to find a picture for a carousel of me graduating, and I'm looking back on all these pictures, and I was plant-based, very plant-based predominantly at the time. And my God, I was on fire. Fuck, I look amazing. I looked amazing. I was like, and I probably was around 59, 60 kilos. So only two kilos from where I am now. But that two kilos on somebody my size would matter eight pounds. Yeah. If I lost eight pounds now, I'd look fire.

SPEAKER_02

So I've got two, so I'm thinking of two women in my head that have seen me. So it's a really hard one to comment on because I've seen it work really well and then really, really problematic. So these are obviously two individual case studies that have I've seen. One woman used it, and this is how a lot of people are using it, to get them from A to B. So if they are really, really unhappy in their weight, it can be really hard for somebody to kind of implement, you know, going to the gym, healthy eating and things like that. And they feel like having something to kind of almost kick start that journey. And I'm not advocating for them because I still think nothing beats kind of a healthy lifestyle and like, you know, going to the gym, being active, helping you.

SPEAKER_03

And also the actual mental mentality that comes from doing really hard things, like I don't want to go to the gym, but I'm going to make that promise to myself and fulfilling it and then go. 100%. The the grip the grit that that gives you is you can never build you can't get that any other way. There is no shortcut to that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, no, 100%. And it does build that like discipline. And I think that spills out into every area of your life. Like if you can cultivate that in one area, it is kind of multidisciplinary. Um, and I think that if someone's using it to get them from A to B and then they implement, as you said, like those habits, great. But most people I see are on it for life. There was a woman I saw, and she came to me and she kind of said, Can I can I come off these? Because she said, like, it's literally ruined my life. She could literally eat the tip of a croissant. She felt sick all the time. She had lost all her bowel movements, and she had got it prescribed by a doctor, but obviously the dosage was wrong. And I think people need to be aware that there are risks that come with it. Obviously, micronutrient deficiencies, if you're not able to eat, are also a problem.

SPEAKER_03

There are things that are I literally just did a podcast about this before, and my whole argument is people who are selling GLP1 support supplements, which I think is just outrageous. We spoke about this literally before. And I was like, imagine your body is like loads of different test tubes where you have to fill up your nutrients every day: vitamin A, magnesium, copper, boron, whatever it might be. And if you're not getting those nutrients in your diet, your body's still gonna send out hunger signals until it gets it because it needs topping up, essentially, is the way I think about it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So that's why you need to have a full of colour, whatever.

SPEAKER_01

100%.

SPEAKER_03

So if you're on GLP1 and you're suppressing that hunger signal, and then at the time when you are eating, you're eating a croissant, nutritionally bereft food, where are you getting your nutrition from? Exactly. Even if you're on that. Yeah. So you're gonna go further, you're gonna start losing your hair.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You're gonna look dull.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You're gonna look, you're gonna have no energy.

SPEAKER_02

The mental symptoms, like this, she was miserable. You know, like she was with her family, she was like, I should have been happy, and I wasn't. And I was just like, you know, come off. And I think what you've just said there, people don't think about, but the fact that you're suppressing like information from your body, it's it's giving you a signal for a reason. Correct. And I think an urge for a reason. That's a real issue. Like when we start overriding the body's kind of natural mechanisms, that's an issue, and that's why people have to stay on it because once you take that um suppressant away, everything comes kind of you know, rushing back.

SPEAKER_03

And actually, what was the food noise in the first place was you not eating a nutrients-dense diet in the beginning, which led you to eating cakes and sugar, and and also the world is set up for you to, you know, you go into Starbucks and there's cakes everywhere. Now I can don't even I look at that and think, sell, you're like, but I'm the anomaly. I am the anomaly. Because I know people who go, Oh, should we get a cake?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

No, I'm like, it's 700 calories. Are you joking? Yeah, I'm gonna have that with a coffee.

SPEAKER_02

But what you've said right there, that's a food industry problem because those particular foods are created with the bliss point in mind, which is exactly the right amount of sugar and salt to make it, you know, hit those dopamine centres in the brain. And so we've got a food industry problem where it's so unregulated. I I think, you know, and also I have to say that people's individual relationships with food is wildly complicated. Like I when I started consulting, I thought it would be, you know, very much diet focused. It's it's not, you know, at all.

SPEAKER_03

They might have had some horrendous trauma going on in their lives, and then they've just emotionally eped in those moments, and then that's what they do when they've have periods of stress.

SPEAKER_02

Definitely, it's huge self-map.

SPEAKER_03

It's completely different to me. I get stressed, immediately stop eating. Like I get anxiety in my stomach to the point where I could I couldn't even think about eating a meal.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Him will not stop eating. If he's stressed, he eats, eats, eats.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And I why is that? Like, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I think it's just how different people are are built. And like I I am exactly the same as you. I remember I went through the first time I went through like proper really bad breakup. People were like I remember walking down the street and people like saying awful comments to me, and like, you know, because I'd lost so much weight, and it was just that I was so sad, like I was still eating, but I was so sad, and that my body just drops. Just didn't have an appetite, yeah, because you just stressed and yeah, but then also I know people that go the other way, and I think it again it comes down to what we were talking about, which is that nuance and individual difference, and we are all built so differently, and that kind of gut-brain connection is different for everyone, it's made up of like hormones, neurotransmitters, and and it's firing different for everybody.

SPEAKER_03

Exactly. And that's why, again, blanket, you know, that PT that you love in the gym, who's naturally blessed with you know, she's genetically slim anyway. She hasn't ever. And this was the other thing. So I'm somebody who always grew up as a bigger girl. I was definitely overweight, I was overweight like most of my life.

SPEAKER_01

I can imagine that.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, believe me, I'll show you some pictures. My God. So I was overweight for most of my life, and I only really got my act together in probably late 20s. And so I in my head I'll always be fat, no matter how thin I get, I'll always be fat. I was great, I I grew up in the 90s where everyone was like anorexic thin. This is before all these drugs, you know what I mean? The Rachel Zoeys, the um Paris Hilton's, the Kate Moss. Yeah, Nicole Richie's, all them. So I grew up looking and like Lindsay Lohan, everyone's like got clothes hanging off them, and they're just amazingly thin. And that's all I ever wanted. Um, because I just wasn't that, and then I got like my diet and nutrition sorted, but I'll always always think of myself bigger. Um so I know what it like it feels like to be bigger and and not want to be that way. But for other people who I think you've never put a pound on in your life, and now you're trying to give advice out to these women who really struggled with their weight. How good on earth can you sit there and do that when you've been genetically blessed with you know, you're five foot eight, you're always going to be a size eight.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Do you know what I mean? And and they'll I I don't know, and I always say to these women, don't take advice off that person.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. A hundred no, a hundred percent. And even to an extent when I'm consulting, there are certain situations where, as I said to you, like I've not been through menopause or I'm haven't had children yet. I have never been in a bigger body. Like there are things that I am blocked as a practitioner from, yeah. And I don't have you know the same experiences. I can I know what's in the literature. Yeah, and I can give you what the evidence says, but again, it's wildly, you know, complicated, and you're dealing with lots of different emotional kind of backstories and you know, people's working hours and working schedules, and and you're dealing with rewiring habits, you know, and psychology is is a big one. I'm I also have my bachelor's in psychology, which is very helpful. Um, and I trained with um Professor Jaka, who's at the Food and Mood Center. Um, so I've learned a lot in that kind of um you know, food psychology area, and it's something that really, really interests me.

SPEAKER_03

And what was c kind of some of the things that you learnt there that really wowed you?

SPEAKER_02

So a lot of the research we did was looking at kind of lifestyle and you know, nutrition support for improving things like anxiety and depression. Um and so that's actually what the bulk of my of my academic research is actually in is kind of contributing on those studies. Um and I think the dietary pattern that still stands out as kind of gold standard for mental health is the Mediterranean diet. We haven't seen yet anything that kind of trumps it. And there are kind of nutrients that stand out within that dietary pattern, which are omega-3 fatty acids being one of them, um, and how they kind of, you know, resilience and fortify the brain. However, they're not in replacement. The study I'm thinking of was a study that Felice Um Jaka, Professor Jacker, actually led. And they're not in replacement of medication. And I do think I sort of don't know where I stand on this because I've never taken any medication. Um, I've suffered with anxiety, I would say, pretty much my whole life, um, sometimes to really, really debilitating levels. Um, one of the reasons actually why I went self-employed, like is to kind of set my own hours and to kind of take a lot of anxiety out of my day in other ways. Um but I don't think any of these nutrition and lifestyle things are powerful enough sometimes for certain mental health conditions, and they're not advocating for that, they're in addition to to help support medication and and those types of uses.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, omega-3 I'm obsessed with. Um if I could find a really, really, really, really good supplier, I would definitely do an omega-3 supplement. Yeah. We've yet to find a brilliant one. I'm on still on the hunt for it. If I know like contact, they never get back to me. They're all like these Nordic countries and just never get back to me.

SPEAKER_02

And by availability, we I mean we spoke about that, but that's a real issue, and that's an issue with omega-3, a lot of omega-3 supplements, is it doesn't actually absorb.

SPEAKER_03

So I take 2,000 milligrams.

SPEAKER_02

Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_03

Which is high. Yeah, it's high to give me that absorption. Because all the literature pointed to if you want neurological benefits for omega-3, it has to be up at 2,000.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and that's what I see a lot of, and that's actually a lot of what I consult with with brands, is actually taking what has been studied and actually applying it to supplements because we've spoken about this. A lot of the supplements industry is actually the doses are so small and they're microdoses that they don't aren't actually powerful enough to make a difference. Um so it's kind of extrapolating what's been studied and you know, and using it.

SPEAKER_03

But also you need a really good formulator. Like we use a great herbal biologist who like like on paper, something might look low dose, but he's like, No, well, no, because you're stacking three things together that go down the same pathway. So when you're doing that, you have to have lower amounts of each three because you've stacked.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And that's what people so if you were to look up individual ingredients, not as a blend, yeah, it would say, Okay, well, if you take ashwagandha, you've got to be at this level. If you're then putting ashrogandha in a blend, it has to be at a lower level because you're mixing it with something else, which is also going to stimulate your adrenals or whatever. Yeah. That's something that I think people also, this is why I get enraged by PTs who've got no fucking idea what they're talking about, never formulated a product in their life, don't know anything, and they're just using Chat GPT, pretending they've got a clue and they know better than a PE teacher. And that honestly frustrates so much because I think you've got a real platform there. Yeah. You're trying to and all you do is you really don't know anything. You know what I mean? So I think that's important. You need to speak to formulators as well.

SPEAKER_01

100%.

SPEAKER_03

Um, about you know how you it's how these things work synergistically. If you're just taking single doses of one ingredient, then it's a different thing. But yeah, when you're talking about what pairing things and maybe four things, five things, maybe more together, it's how they work together.

SPEAKER_02

100%. And also a lot of the time in supplements, they're not in their active form, the ingredients, and that's a big thing. And I honestly feel like it's the biggest privilege to like know what to look for when I go and look, you know, for particular supplements. Um, because if the ingredient isn't in its active form, essentially the body struggles to convert it again, not for everybody, but in a lot of people. Um exactly.

SPEAKER_03

So like take vitamin B6, for example, we use P5P, which is the active form of vitamin B6. Yeah. And we use that in our magnesium. We will be using it in our golden pearl as well. Um but yeah, again, but that's because I know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So a lot of people don't. But we're interested in it, right?

SPEAKER_02

So we know what to look for. And it's the same with um, you know, like gut health, like probiotics. It probiotics I think are great, but you need to know what strain certain issues are best paired with certain strains. And if you don't know what strain you're buying, if you're just buying a probiotic for general like one strain. Yeah. Like I think if you've got, you know, whatever way you are, if you're constipated, if you're having, you know, too many bowel movements, there is a specific specific strain in the probiotic that will solve that problem. And the evidence kind of says if you have intact gut health, like if your gut health is generally pretty good, they're not going to move the needle that much.

SPEAKER_03

So I am of the opinion that's me. I honestly don't bother with any probiotic. I eat Greek yogurt, I eat a bit of kimchi. Yeah, you know, a bit of that kombucha.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I think that's that's great if you can get those naturally.

SPEAKER_03

And I just don't I believe that we should be getting it naturally.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um I I I wouldn't waste my money on a probiotic. Me personally.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So I've I mean, I was telling you before when I was in London last, I got awful norovirus. Like I was the most sick I've ever been. It was actually flawed me.

SPEAKER_03

Like how I I've had norovirus like not long ago, and I was like begging for the grim reaper.

SPEAKER_02

So awful. And to the point where afterwards, because my gut health was so disrupted, I was being violently sick for many days straight, and also changed my diet. So, you know, you can only eat like beige foods.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

My gut health was awful. Like, and it also made me lactose intolerant. So I couldn't, even though I've never had any issues with any foods, I couldn't eat a lot of the foods that I was eating before. And I was like, this is awful. So obviously looked up the strain, specific strains that I needed, and I got, am I allowed to mention certain brains? Yeah. I got a probiotic from a company called Garden of Life, um, just straight from Holland and Barrow. And genuinely, within I would say about two days, I noticed a huge difference. Like whether that was again placebo, because there is a huge placebo effect as well with supplements that we know.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, but it was honestly life-changing. I could eat, go back to eating pretty much my normal diet and was amazing. So, and that was the first time I've properly taken probiotic.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I'm just looking at it now. What's in it?

SPEAKER_01

It's the women's specific one. I've got the women's.

SPEAKER_03

So the only one I've taken, it's like in isolation, really, was Lactobacillius Rhymnosis GG. Used to take that. Yeah. Um, I used to take biocult a lot. I used to give Optibat for my little girl.

SPEAKER_01

They're good brands.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Um, Acidophilus, that's a big strain. I see a lot of people having that one. But yeah, I just feel like I don't know, I feel like my gut health is okay. So I don't really worry about it. Yeah. So if you're getting your pro like bacteria from fermented foods, that's Greek yogurt is mainly the only thing I eat all the time.

SPEAKER_02

Whilst we're on this topic as well, so one of my roles um in technical writing is I work for a company called Microba, which is a really in-depth gut health testing company. Um, I work for them in Australia, and it's been mind-blowing like what I've learned working with them. And one of the things is that there is no good and bad bacteria. It's actually how your gut ecosystem like responds as a whole. So they haven't profiled to date, and they are a company that actually find new species and strains of bacteria and go through that kind of classification system of naming them and things like that.

SPEAKER_03

Um why are they all mad random names? Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I was speaking to one of the scientists the other day who um knows a lot about this, and she said that the classification system is really, really dated and old. And she says that it was built a while ago and is still kind of very, very dated. They're all massive long Latin names or something.

SPEAKER_03

It's like it's just crazy.

SPEAKER_02

It is, it's wild. Um, but she basically was sort of saying like there is no universally healthy profiled gut. It's actually if your gut is able to function well, you know, there is no essentially good especially in your own environment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

If we were in Papua New Guinea, yeah, I would imagine I'd need different microbes than if I was here.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You know what I mean? Living in Liverpool.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. You've explained that better than me. It's it's exactly that's exactly what I'm trying to say. It's the environment that you're in and also the existing ecosystem in your gut. So the idea of even like things like fibre and fermented foods being universally kind of gut-friendly is technically incorrect because it's how your gut, your current gut ecosystem is responding to.

SPEAKER_03

For instance, I go went to Egypt. First day, fucking hell, diarrhea. Do you know what I mean? For the first two days, now I was doing a photo shoot in Egypt for El Sarah. I looked amazing after those two days because I hadn't eaten anything at all. Stomach was amazing, abs were popping, looked great for the photo shoot, but it was just a byproduct of having diarrhea for so long. Oh no. But then as soon as I was over it, I was over it. Now, obviously, be because I don't know, the bugs are different over there. So I obviously got sick.

SPEAKER_02

And they've got different, you know, hygiene practices and things like that. So it is very much, and also if you are someone that you know has something like IBS and you're not actually absorbing things from your food, you know, whether you have you know, fibre, if you'd eat in fibre on those days, it's not gonna matter. Do you know what I mean? How healthy your diet was because your gut was was off. But it's how quickly your gut can get back to equilibrium that is the I guess deciding factor of how healthy your your kind of gut is.

SPEAKER_03

I believe leaky gut is spoken about a bit too much, in my opinion. Everyone's going, yeah, but what about leaky gut? And I'm like, well, what about it?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And the way people go on about it, you think everyone on planet Earth got it. And I'm like, well, they haven't. It's pretty hard to get, and like your body sorts itself out pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02

And the gut is an amazingly resilient ecosystem. So for anyone who doesn't know what leaky gut is, it's essentially where your gut lining um erodes essentially, um, and you allows pathogens and bacteria kind of into the bloodstream, which then triggers inflammation. So that's why we might see, I don't know, cases of of even like mental health issues like some anxiety and depression can be traced back to kind of leaky gut. Um but just like you said, I think it's been kind of branded around, you know, too much now. And I think the best way to tell if you have something like that or any kind of gut issue is to test it. Now, these tests do tend to be on the more kind of expensive end, and obviously they're pretty um, they take a long time sometimes to come back. So if you have an immediate gut issue and you're wanting to know what's up, like say for example, in the case of something like noravirus, like I'm sure do you know what I mean? But I'd have to have waited two to three weeks by which case it's like. It's over with, yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03

No, if it's a it's a chronic condition, you know, if you were I don't know, something like Crohn's or something, yeah, then you would want to get that tested. And you've got to weigh up something's only expensive if I don't know, like uh it wouldn't be expensive to me if my quality of life was affected every single day by it. I'd be thinking this is absolutely critical. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And if you do have that's a really good point, if you do have like a chronic condition, you know, like Crohn's or ulcerative physically. It's really important to get that tested because it requires kind of ongoing management. So if yeah, if anyone thinks that they do have, you know, kind of persistent chronic symptoms, it's worth very much getting checked and to the bottom of what it is.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. For me, I've not really seen any grade A supplement that I would Add to my routine in terms of fibre or probiotics, really, that would be better than actually eating food. Yeah. And the point is I have to eat every day. So why would I eat shit food and then supplement with something that I'm supposed to get from real food?

SPEAKER_01

100%.

SPEAKER_03

So, like, you know, I wouldn't sacrifice broccoli and carrots and I don't know, like pulses and grains. Yeah. You know, for chips, sausages, pizza. Yeah. And then go and get a supplement on top to try and fix my gut health, which was caused by this anyway. Yeah. I just think what the hell are people thinking sometimes? They're trying to out-supplement bad diets and and I'm somebody who sits there as supplement owner saying, please don't do this.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I try and put people off from buying supplements. I don't do the industry any good, but I believe in the three products we have, and that's why I don't have a range of products. Yeah. I don't jump on trends. I'm not there selling GLP one support fucking supplements or you know, the latest trendy thing.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I believe in doing great products really well. But and also please eat food. Yeah. Real food.

SPEAKER_02

100%. And I think the point is we have got to a point where we're trying to convenient. Like it's it's a point of convenience where people are like, oh great, if I take this greens powder, I don't have to like eat vegetables or good. It's like it's it doesn't work like that. It's in addition to the insurance policy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So it I've lost a lot of respect for people who promote that rubbish.

SPEAKER_02

Greens powders in particular. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

One particular greens powder that is rubbish. With 79 different ingredients. Well, AG1, if goodness it. But like, yeah, I really write like wrong and chatter J. And he's going, This is the insurance policy. I'm like, no, you're taking 200 grand off them to promote it. And then you've got like Huberman who goes on about it, and everybody else. It should be the podcasters.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, in addition to a healthy, balanced diet. And I think that's where Or is it even necessary?

SPEAKER_03

Could you save yourself£89 a month and not have it?

SPEAKER_02

I think people need to, again, what we've spoken about, look at the dosages in things like this and actually, you know, are what people so some people I know take greens powders for like the iron and you know certain specific nutrients in the greens powders. And I think people need to look, are they in the active forms? Are they in the correct dosage? Um, do I even need this? You know, tests don't guess. That's why I always say to people, make sure you're testing before you're supplementing. There's so many people I see that take like a multivitamin and then are supplementing individual things, and you can get toxicity from certain vitamins, so it is important to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_03

And with things like those big blends of loads of different stuff, things compete for different like the same pathway as well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So it's just cancelling each other out effectively as well, which is another reason why I don't agree with them.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so there is a huge with that a bioavailability issue where certain nutrients are competing for the same pathway, your body won't be able to absorb all of it.

SPEAKER_03

So yeah. So I would say save you money on that. Me personally. Um okay. Uh the world is protein obsessed. Yeah. We've touched on it before, in that you your body does demand, especially as an older lady going into menopause, definitely protein is something you should be locked on to. Um, is there a calculation we should be doing per body weight? How should we be calculating? How do we should we be getting enough?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so I think typically the advice, I think it's 0.8 to 1.2 per kilogram of body weight, grams per kilogram body weight. Um I think obviously, again, coming back to individual differences, like say again, how much you're weight training, exactly. How much are you working out? Someone like yourself who's resistance training, your protein intake is gonna look very, very different to someone.

SPEAKER_03

120 a day I do, or try and get to 120 a day to conserve muscle tissue and make sure I'm satisfied. Do I hit it all the time? No, I don't.

SPEAKER_02

And I think that nutrition needs flexibility, and I think with the whole kind of protein hype, that's a lot of what I see as well is people using like my fitness pow and like tracking within an inch of their life. And I think you know, our lifestyles are you know demanding, they're constantly changing, and people's approach to nutrition needs to have that flexibility in order for it to be sustainable. And sure, if you want to track track, you know, sometimes and it's a good I guess idea to know where you're sitting. Um, but I think yeah, like tracking consistently, if as long as you're having, I would say, like, you know, a portion of protein at every meal, and I have always try and have like some protein-rich snacks, you know, like things like almond butter and apple slices and things like that. Um, and I think yeah, if you're generally having a portion of protein at each meal, you're good.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I for me, get out of jail card. If I'm out and about, you can always find a Starbucks and you can always get some egg bites. That's like literally 162 calories, 20 grams of protein, just eggs, really, isn't it? But then it's not brilliant, it's convenient food, it's whatever, yeah, packaged up, whatever. But if that that is the only thing I can get, it's the only thing you can get in Starbucks that's decent.

SPEAKER_02

The only thing I would say is that one of my problems with the whole high protein movement isn't the concept itself, because I actually think you know, protein is the most satiating macronutrient, um, and that's kind of why there's a lot of help. It helps us, you know, stay fuller for longer. But what I don't love is the ultra-processed products that come with that.

SPEAKER_03

So, yeah, I was just about to go on to that. Like it is not the same as fucking a grenade bar that says protein on it. 20 grams of protein on a grenade bar and 20 grams of protein from my Starbucks egg bites, very different effects in the body. One is a pro that one is a chocolate, it's a chocolate bar.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Let's be honest. You're not doing yourself any favors by I don't know, trying to what's the word I'm looking for?

SPEAKER_02

Like if you're getting to that number without it coming from Whole Foods consistently, that's an issue. And you know, I have a protein shake occasionally, and you know, if I'm busy or whatever, I think they're really convenient options. Um, and there are brands doing protein bars better than others, like I have to say that. But as a rule of thumb, I would say if you're looking at a bar and it's got more than seven ingredients that you don't recognise, it's likely ultra-processed. And so someone who's consuming this food, I think the sad part is like generally they are trying to be healthy, and that's my bugbear with it. Is like they've been to the gym, they're ticking all the boxes, they're doing everything right, and then they're consuming these products which are full of sugar and everything else.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, it's a Mars bar, essentially. Just look at it like that. Yeah. Um packet of chicken, bag of carrots. I sit on my desk when Kelly will say, Do you want lunch? And I'll be like, just go to the supermarket, packet of chicken, bag of carrots, and maybe pun it at raspberries, and that'll be me. Done. Um, but and really boring, unadventurous, you know, no sandwiches, no wraps, no nothing.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. But you know, and you can make this food like absolutely delicious. Like I think that is, you know, I'm the nutritionist, deliciously, people like that. They are people who've taken, you know, simple whole foods and made them delicious.

SPEAKER_03

I do agree. When I didn't really run a business, it's I could sit and cook all day, and I did used to do that. And I used to be when I was making money out of showing people how to make food, well, yeah, of course I was making amazing food because that was my revenue stream, just like I'm a nutritionist. But take that away from her and tell her to run a job that's nothing to do with nutrition and then still cook like that, it's it's impossible.

SPEAKER_02

It's in ch it's impossible.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's virtually impossible, anyway. Yeah, I agree. Um, because then where's my movement coming from? So the time I would be prepping to cook, I've got to try and get my steps in, and then I've got to spend some time with my child before she grows up. And I've not seen her all day.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So I've got two hours with her before she goes to bed, and then I've got to sit with her. So I find it rid ridiculously difficult.

SPEAKER_02

You need like the simple meals, like what you're saying, are the best. Like the t that's why like I don't really post any real like recipes or foods because the foods I eat, like I'm extremely busy. They're so simple. Yeah, if you so simple, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Chop up veg, mince, done. Yeah. That's my food, like with a tomato baza sauce on it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, exactly. And you can make really simple sauces, you know, like olive oil, some you know, miso paste and things like that. You can make things delicious, but they are, you know, can be simple as well.

SPEAKER_03

Good luck to look at. No. I used to literally mess about it. I used to run a cookery school. Oh my god. I didn't know this. Yeah. That's how yeah. I w if you saw the food I made, it was absolutely outrageous. But I had all the time in the world to do it. Yeah. You can match up and all this. Oh my god, it was amazing. It's all Instagrammable, it's amazing. But yeah, nothing, no money, nothing, nothing to do all day.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So I look great. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02

But um and also I'm the type of person that like if I'm hungry, my partner will attest this. I need to eat right now.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Like, and when I get home from work or wherever I've been, I'm like, I need to eat. Well, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_03

So it's about not having shit in the house as well. Correct. Because you in those moments, if it's there, you're gonna go for it. Yeah. So you don't buy it.

SPEAKER_02

That's huge.

SPEAKER_03

Don't buy it. And that's in uh don't, and then people go, Oh, I'll get it in for the kids. Well, why are they eating it?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, don't get it in for them. 100%. And in um two things, I'll say in Professor Jaka's book, it's called, I think it's called like brain food or brain fed, something like that. She says, like these treats that were actually meant to be like in back in the day, like once a month, or really occasional, we're now having every day in our diets.

SPEAKER_03

Kids are like, Oh, it's my dessert. Yeah, like what? Yeah, a dessert every day. They'd have a dessert at lunch and a dessert at tea every day. Yeah, what's happened?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You're joking, no, and I'm like really against that, really against that. And then I'm so this is the other problem as well. One of my biggest causes of anxiety. I said this on a podcast, and she's got better now. Um, but taking my little girl out, I have her on a Tuesday, so we go out for the day and whatever. No matter where I take her, kids' play area, swimming, you name it, everywhere at eye level is shit food. Yeah. Cakes, slices of chocolate cake, bags of quavers, bags of sweets, haribows, all there. Of course, she's gonna want it. We go to Starbucks, all there. Meltdown Central. How do you navigate that as a parent? Well, how do you? How do you? Because I come out of swimming, vending machines there, throwing herself on the floor because I won't get something. Yeah. And I say, I've got no money. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

She's screaming, kicking the shit out of the vending machine because she's two and she doesn't understand.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And that is horrendous.

SPEAKER_02

And it comes back to what we were saying kind of at the beginning.

SPEAKER_03

And you're just like, shut up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

We want to be the same. She wants to be the same as everyone else. And like, that's what I've we've well, me and my partner, we've had similar conversations where I've said, like, the food system, like, particularly for kids, is so so challenging to navigate. And it's like obviously being a nutritionist and kind of I always say to people, sometimes oblivion is best. Like when you don't know what things do, it's almost better than actually having you know the knowledge and education knowing how to do it. Very difficult in your body. Very difficult. It's hard to ignore, you know, once you get down sort of a certain path. Um, and especially someone like you that's really, you know, got obviously an interest in it and really cares what you put in your body. I think as a society, like it's hard again, swimming upstream against the making.

SPEAKER_03

Against that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And then they go to kids' parties and it's I heard something on um a podcast the other day. I can't I don't know how true this is, but um to do with nurseries or something implementing stopping certain snacks or something like that.

SPEAKER_03

That's a podcast for another time, but I won't say anything today. Yeah. Uh in case anyone's listening. But uh yeah, there's been lots of times where I'm like, don't give her a cross on her host. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Because then she when she sees a cross on when we're out and about, now she wants it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Whereas I've I've never she didn't know that that was. I used to say spicy, spicy. Everything's spicy. That ice cream is spicy, leave it, you know what I mean? Um, okay. Um carnivore diet. What's your take on that? Good, bad, ugly. Should we be doing it?

SPEAKER_02

No, I mean it comes back to balance again. And anything that's like meat heavy, like, where's you know? Where's your fibre coming from? Exactly. Anything that prioritises one sort of dominant food or stream of food. No.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. Um sugar, always a big one, seems to be the villain all the time. Used to be fat as a villain, now it's sugar, obesity's still rising. Are we blaming the wrong thing?

SPEAKER_02

I think it comes back. I don't think it's just sugar, but I think it's like we were saying, all of those ultra-processed products, and obviously sugar is a massive factor in that, but it's also the other things like the emulsifiers and you know the salt content and things like that. It's it's everything combined.

SPEAKER_03

I also think it's fucking that. You're just sitting down, scrolling. You're sitting down and all the times you probably were moving before.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And also the thrill of the chase, let's be honest, everybody is driven by, especially in your 20s and 30s, you're all driven by trying to find a mate. When now you don't have to go out the house and you can get you can sit at home like a fat lardass, not really doing anything, and get you can get a mate to come to you because you're swiping all day, and they're so you're not having to like be up against the guys in some bar trying to impress some girl. So now you don't have to be that physically fit, you know? And I think that's so interesting. I've never I feel that that is a big issue for obesity. You're sitting at home watching Netflix all day.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think definitely the distraction component is huge. Like we don't eat mindfully anymore. Like, people even if you go out, if you just go and like sit in Pret or Costa or wherever, everyone, most people, unless obviously they're in conversation with scrolling, like everyone's distracted, and that blunts as well, the signals going in.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So whether you're eating sugar or you know, yeah, whatever, our body's not registering the food that's actually coming into our body, and that has been shown to increase you know rates of obesity, things like that.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, but I honestly think if guys needed to, you know, for them in order to have sex, they had to be the most attractive alpha male of the pack. Yeah. Because you know what I mean? Yeah, so they so they would have to get up, go out, have some ambition, you know, try and get a great job, work out, do all the great things to attract a great lady so they could have sex, have a partner, and fulfill other's desires. Now I'm sorry, there's porn on tap. There is everyone's on tap and they don't need to leave the house or they can just be fat lazy and not do anything.

SPEAKER_02

100%. I think we're seeing that shift as a culture. Like, I think we're at a really interesting point. Like, clubs are closing because there's not enough people.

SPEAKER_03

I am of the last generation that we didn't have iPhones. We went out. I mean, like, I was looking back through my Facebook at some picture very difficult to find some, but we had like cameras, you know, disposable cameras at that time. But we went out, we had a great time. It is it is sad and we were just texting, tech you'd text and you'd have so many characters on your text that would be it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it is sad, and also the fact you don't have to leave your house to get food, you know, like Uber Eats, Uber Eats.

SPEAKER_03

I mean it's a godsend sometimes because I can't be asked leaving the house and I'll get some milk delivered, but I mean I wouldn't get takeaways delivered or anything. Yeah, but yeah, some people doing it every day, every day, multiple times a day. Yeah, I completely agree with you.

SPEAKER_02

And that's what that is a huge problem, is like we've created a society based off convenience, and if you shortcut anything, it's not good. It's not good. Like there's a there's a there's a consequence to every shortcut.

SPEAKER_03

You are right.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I think that's a great way to wrap up. And I actually love that line. There is a shortcut to every consequence. You can't cheat the system. No, and anybody who is overfought it with a great body, yeah, they've worked bloody hard for it, I think. You cannot cheat muscle tissue. No, you cannot inject muscle tissue. Do you know what I mean? You have to have a work for it. So I really respect anyone who's in shape and has got everything dialed in. I really do, because I know I haven't. Yeah. You know, work might be going well, but that means Jim will be terrible. My body, you know what I mean? I won't be working out as much as possible. Or I will be, and work will drop off.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And or it's just very, very difficult to balance, and I struggle with it, even though I'm and I don't have a social life. So I really respect anyone who's got all that sorted. Yeah. And anybody who's got a really significant amount of muscle tissue, male or female, all power too, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I think that's incredible.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. No, definitely. And I think it is hard. And I think that is the main message I think I want to get across to people is that to do any, like to have any discipline, especially in any area, if like you want to optimize your sleep, nutrition, hydration, like it takes work. And I guess like it's not very Instagrammable or you know, it doesn't sell because it's hard, you know. And I think we're in a society where we are trying to like hack everything. And sometimes, like, you know, for general well-being, I don't that there is no hack. You know, it is the basics, like sleep eight hours, you know, sleep seven to eight, nine hours and you know, hydration, eat whole food diet, like, but there's no glitz and and glamour in there.

SPEAKER_03

There's no convenience to that, it's actually just getting off your ass and doing the work, but yeah, your 80-year-self will thank you for it. And I also think, like, I said this to someone the other day, it might be harsh, but whatever. I was like, would you run into that building, that burning building for your children? And he was like, Yeah, of course I would. I was like, get up off the couch for them then. That's literally my motivator anyway.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, 100%. And also, I there's something called like, you know, like invisible PR. Like when you start doing something, you have such an impact on the people around you. Like, everyone is an influencer to an extent. True. If you live in a household with anyone else, the amount of influence and impact you have on the people around you is unbelievable. You know, like my mum had never lifted weights in her life. And she asked me once what I did at the gym. I never ever said, Mom, you need to go to the gym or you know, you should start doing this. But she's now started off her own back just from asking questions, asking where I'm going. Like she was interested. I said, Why don't you come with me one day and just see what it's about? She now goes consistently multiple times a week, every week. And this is someone who'd never set foot in a gym until she was 16.

SPEAKER_03

That's brilliant.

SPEAKER_02

So, and it's the same with diet. If someone's watching, I think sometimes the the less you say, the better, the more the impact.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Which is not what we have currently in society. It's kind of feels like whoever shouts the loudest, but I sometimes think whatever you're if you have great habits, it will catch on.

SPEAKER_03

Definitely, definitely. Well, that is a perfect place to wrap up our chat. Well, Laura, thank you so much. I know you've flown in from Melbourne, you're off to London, you've come up from London.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you're so well.

SPEAKER_03

Wow, well done. Thank you so much for being here. I really enjoyed our chat.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's been great.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I hopefully we'll do it again.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you.