What Red Light Therapy Really Does To Your Skin | Louise Taylor & Melissa Williams Dermalux

00:00 Meet DermaLux
03:09 How Light Affects Cells
04:50 Mitochondria Energy Boost
07:21 Not a Sunbed
10:05 Wavelengths and Whole Body
12:26 Origins and Market Shift
14:10 Why DermaLux Wins
17:33 Dose and Device Design
22:31 Nutrition and GLP Ones
24:47 DermaLux Origin Story
33:53 Regulation and Medical Claims
37:54 Home Devices and Usage
41:44 How Soon Results Show
42:56 Dermal Glow Timeline
47:29 Goggles and Eye Safety
50:59 Skincare Before and After
01:03:02 Menopause Skin Protocols
01:07:24 Sleep and Circadian Rhythm
01:09:53 Future of Red Light
01:11:20 Red Light Exercise Pod Idea
01:13:04 Final Thanks and Wrap

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome back to the Else Roll Podcast. And today's guests, I am joined by Louise and Melissa from Dermalux. Hello, ladies. Hi, Lissa. Hello, hello. Nice to have you on. Yeah, no, thank you for inviting us. So, uh, as I was just telling you in the preamble there, I had just had my hair done like I do before every podcast. And I was in there and I used the guys in the hairdressers, all the ladies that are all getting the hair done, as my litmus test to how much does the market really know about these things? Because sometimes it can be a bit niche. And I said, What does anybody know about red light? And most of them had never heard of it, wouldn't, you know, believe anything I was saying about it. They were all some beds, some beds, some beds. So you're here today, and I'm imagining some of the listeners won't know anything about red light or why it's beneficial. So let's go from ground zero before we get into dermalux specifically and what you guys do. Can you explain red light therapy to someone who's never heard of it? Go.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Uh, I mean, we can go as simple as we want. Uh it is light that heals, if you want it that simple. But in terms of what it does, it is probably better to go back to why we need it first, and we'll touch on that in a moment. But we are essentially using specific wavelengths of light that are absorbed to a certain level in the skin, into a certain part of the cell, and can trigger a biological response. So when we do that, we get this cascade of incredible results that that come from that, and we can touch on those in a moment. But a lot of people always say to me, you know, it's just a bit of light, like, you know, it just gives me a bit of a glow. I hate it when I hear that. Um, but just like you, you know, we're influenced by light all of the time, right? So you go out in the sun, there is a particular wavelength from the sun that's absorbed to a certain level of the skin and triggers a response where pigment comes up to the surface, which is to us a nice, healthy-looking tan. And you can see that chemical change happening. When you use different parts of that light spectrum, you can trigger different parts of the cell of what happens uh after that is you know incredible.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

Yeah, I think people just it's it's just having that visible recognition that light is causing a change, and you know, the UV part of the spectrum will yeah, is triggering the body's own natural protection of against damage, and and that's when we get attacked. So yeah, it's I think it's just it's it's putting the two together, and then obviously it's just w understanding that light is made up of a whole spectrum of different wavelengths. Um some we can see, some we can't. So red light is a visible light, but UV, for example, that we can't see. So it's just that each light, as Melissa just said, has a specific target into the skin and will trigger a different um biological response.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Well, I think yeah, it's it I for me, it's undeniable that light does does do something, as you've just said there, because it actually can give you a tan. Yeah. Um UV light we know does damage because you can get skin cancer and you know, signs of aging, etc. So we know that light does have harmful effects, but it can also have beneficial effects. So what's actually happening inside the skin when the light hits it?

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Well, I think it's important to know that when we talk about red light, we are not in the ultraviolet realm. And so ultraviolet light, as you said, has its benefits, but also, you know, the reason that we get that tan is that our pigment is coming up to block the UV rays from attacking the cell DNA, which we know then accelerates aging, and even worse. So when we are using specific wavelengths of light on the different part of the spectrum, our cells have something called chromophores. They are cells that absorb light and need light to function effectively. So there are different structures within the cell that allow light to be absorbed. And when we do that, we trigger a response that gives all of the cells exactly what they need for their function. If we want to stimulate collagen and elastin, we can trigger the cell that will give the fibroblast cell, for example, the opportunity to be able to produce collagen and elastin. So we can do that and create that that trigger with light. So it is wavelength specific.

SPEAKER_03 4:19

So each different colour. So obviously, there are you know, not just red light, there are many different colours of light available and some have clinical data and some don't, you know. And I think it's it's you know, it's about uh also understanding that and and then showing what and and and also how that light is delivered as well. So there's many different factors in terms of actually producing a result at the end, it's not just about being exposed to this light, but yeah, I think it's is and then it's also how they might work in synergy together to produce different or better results.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

So I mean we've touched on, you know, we're we're reaching a particular target or a part of the cell, but let if we go right back, why do we need it in the first place? You know, we are all 37 trillion cells, give or take a few, walking around. That's that's it, that's all we are. And almost all of those cells need energy to function effectively. So um there are parts of the body that need more of those cells than the others. Like here's a here's a um a statistic for you. The brain is 2% of the body weight, but it takes 20% of the body's energy that it is needed. So, you know, if you work out at the gym, whoever Jim is, he sounds like a nice guy, right? But um, so if you go to the gym and you're, you know, working out, you're normally it's your brain that tells you you're fatigued first because it's used that energy before your muscles are. So every every cell needs to produce energy for our cells to function effectively. And light, red light across the the um the visible spectrum of light creates that change within the cell and it targets something called the mitochondria. Okay, this is the energy center of our cell. It is responsible for producing all of the energy currency, the little batteries that every single cell needs to function. And as we get older, you know, eight uh when by the time we hit our 30s, we lose 8% of that mitochondrial function every decade. So now when you wake up and you don't, your skin doesn't kind of go back the way it did, or if you feel you can't remember someone's name in the middle of the day and you get that brain fog, or you feel tired now, you start to get those aches and pains more. You start to notice these different changes, you just don't feel yourself anymore. All of that is because, and it can all be traced back to the fact that we don't have the energy in the first place. So if our cells don't have the energy they need to function, then nothing happens. What does happen though is then we have this issue where we have this inflammatory response. The cells don't communicate to each other anymore, they don't work as they should. And that's when we then start to see that on our skin and the way that we feel. So, with red light, what we're doing is we're targeting that energy center of the cell to give the cells more energy. And so much more than that. But that is the basic overview of that.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Okay, and what what would you say to like the ladies in the the hairdressers who are like, is it the same as a sunbed? Because I would imagine that's what most people think.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

Do you know it? When you led under there for 20, 30 minutes, do you feel like you're in Barbados? Yes, you do. It feels amazing. You'll know exactly how that feels. Um, but it's totally different because we're not using ultraviolet light. We are using, you know, and ultraviolet light is what causes the tan, okay? Um, and and you know, triggers the vitamin D3 production. This is all good things, but when you have extensive exposure of that, you start to see the negative impact of it. You exceed that accelerated agent. We've now are attacking the cell DNA. What we're doing is we're using a different spectrum that is absorbed by a different part of the cell, and it is only ever going to give you, you know, great results. And I'm that annoying person that, you know, if anyone's got any symptom whatsoever, whether they've got a bit of a tummy upset or they're feeling a bit tired or anything like that always goes back to mitochondrial dysfunction. I'm annoying, aren't I?

SPEAKER_03 8:26

But it is red light. I think you you get exposed to it, and because it's it, because of its energizing um sort of factors, it is an uplift, you know, even if you just feel tired. I mean, I just I know we love it for our rejuvenation benefits, but if I'm feeling tired, I know that's the one thing that's just going to make me feel right. If I'm going out, I'm thinking, I'm tired, have a quick power enough under the red light, and I'm like ready to go. So it yeah, it definitely makes a lot of it.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

It's important, but yeah, you're right. It's important because you know, every symptom now, and when you start to start using skincare, and you know you love your skincare, and then after a while, as you get older, it's not working the same way. You go in and have your microneedling, it doesn't quite finish the same way, you don't heal the same way anymore, you don't quite get the result that you want. All of this is because we now have a, you know, we have mitochondrial dysfunction. The mitochondria isn't working effectively. So everything is slower, we heal slower, we, you know, we don't wake up alert anymore. We, you know, we're doing all of these things that that, you know, unfortunately, modern life affects our mitochondria all the time. So when we have something that is no trauma, there is no, you know, uh no downtime, it is a really quick treatment, no one is faffing with you either. You lie there, you switch off, and you have that, and you have you know, regular sessions of that, the results are incredible for all symptoms because the root cause is always mitochondrial dysfunction. If those cells do not have the energy, they're never going to repair effectively. So, no matter what is happening, that it that is the power of red light and why everyone's talking about it at the moment, because it is for everybody.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Okay, I just thought of a question, I'll ask it now because I might forget it. Um, so obviously, yeah, loads of benefits. So, obviously, people are using red light masks and things like the flex that just goes on your face. Um, is it just gonna help the cells on your face, or is that gonna like transfer all around your body?

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Yeah, such a good question. Depends which wavelength you're using. So, you know, there's devices that have blue light. Blue light is a very short wavelength and will only really target the surface of the skin. You've then got red light that can go right down further and deeper into the skin, which is exactly where we want it, where we want to target our mitochondria. Um, near infrared also targets the mitochondria, but it can go right down into the muscle, into uh bone, and you know, there are some studies that show that it can even go through right out the other side. We have the medical certification for pain management because we can reach and we can trigger the body's natural ability to heal itself so we can start to see those improvements much quicker. You know, we there's a big thing on circadian rhythm, and and right now we're all having issues with that. We don't sleep when we should. We're sat looking at blue light, um, when we're going to bed at night, all of these things can cause the body to become in this kind of inflamed state because we don't recover as we should anymore. We're we're not, you know, doing what we should have been doing, you know, year, you know, back in the caveman time, or we're going right back there now, where you know, actually we needed to be awake and alert, and we needed to make sure that we were, you know, make not going to get eaten by a saber-toothed tiger. And then we had to recover from all of that that we did in the day, but we don't recover anymore. And the stress isn't the saber-toothed tiger, it's anxiety and it's work stress and burnout and all of those things that happen. So our body is affected by that all of the time. And so when we use red light, we are going back and we are, you know, red light can help trigger melatonin, which is the sleepy hormone. So a lot of people will, you know, use red before they go to bed. And then in the morning, blue light alerts you, it brings you awake, it tells your body time to start protecting throughout the day. So it's yeah, it's cool, right? There's so many ways I could sit here forever. You need to nudge me when I need to shut up.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Well, how long has this technology existed? Is this something new? I've just not really been talking about it.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

No, I it's it's been around for a long time, but it it was rooted into the medical field, so it had more medical applications for treatment of things like skin cancer, you know, with in combination with topical drugs. Um, but it was only, I mean, so going back to when we started in 2012, uh, light therapy wasn't known as it is today. So there there was uh a couple of devices, but it was it was largely unrecognized as an aesthetic sort of skin treatment. It was more recognised as something that could be used for medical healing, you know, for example. So I think it's just how things have evolved. And I think also how the landscape of the market has changed, you know. I think there was there's been this sort of shift away from very invasive, aggressive treatments that cause a lot of trauma, you know, just talking back on the point of, you know, there are so many um skin conditions that are rooted in inflammation, you know, but and then you look at all these treatments that are just creating more trauma through heat or mechanical trauma or chemicals, you know, and actually, you know, is that appropriate for these kind of conditions? You know, the healing regenerative approach is going to be a much safer, longer-term beneficial approach for those things, you know, and I think actually just looking and also how things then go into or sort of filter into the home market as well. I think it's how accessible does something become as a technology. But I think it's because there's been a lot of, you know, particularly from our side, you know, we've invested very heavily in creating, you know, it's our own technology. Dermelux LEDs are, you know, are unique to us, it's our own recipe. And we've invested heavily into that to make sure that we're delivering consistent, repeatable results, you know, and and that's what we're known for. You know, that's our dermalux guarantee, I suppose.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

Well, then let's get into that. That's a great point to bring up. So you said you started in uh 2012. Yes. Um, and now I'm looking at the market and there's red light devices everywhere. So, what separates you guys from the 30 pound, 100 pound mass that again off Amazon?

SPEAKER_03 14:28

Yeah, it's the technology and how we deliver, you know, how we're delivering light into the skin. As I said, we we you know, we we we took the technology. So when we started, like I said, there was only uh it was sort of fairly misunderstood, and there was only a couple of devices there. So, you know, we got you know, the engineering side, the clinical side, the medical side, you know, and actually sort of started to look at that and and it was a very organic sort of development, but actually and also doing you know, the results are in in the you know of the proof at the end of the day. And I think it's just how that evolution, it's like anything, you know, with with more testing and more um innovation, you know, it technology just becomes better and more available. So, and this is something that we yeah, that we did.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

I think if if you don't mind me just jumping in as well, I think you have to understand the biology of how light interacts with the skin. And I think what Dermalux has done is built devices around the biology. There is LED everywhere, you know, and the terminology also used is um phototherapy or more specific photobiomodulation, effective photobiomodulation or phototherapy or LED is dose-dependent. You have to have that dose even reach the target in the first place to get any change in the skin. And you know, there is red light devices everywhere, the wavelength is super important. We need to be using clinically proved proven red light, but the red light goes beyond you know quite a large spectrum of that of that light. When you're using the specific wavelength, super important. We're gonna we know we're gonna reach where we want to in the skin. But if you don't have the dose of light actually reaching the target and making that change, that's why we see no result in other devices or in some devices. So we build the device. There are so many parameters, it is an absolute material science to get this right. We build the devices around biology first, not the hardware. I mean, I could easily put LED onto a board and then call that an LED device, but that's just a bedside lamp, right? That's not kind of yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

What I want to do is get so I see people, you know, buying stuff all the time or putting red light in their lamps and going, well, it's red light. I'm like, no, no, there's actually got to be a specific wavelength for it to actually run. 100%. You can't just and if you are putting a 30-pound mask, I can guarantee it's probably not gonna have the right wavelength in there. And you you can't, I mean, I've looked into red light beds for ages. I was actually gonna be able to sell like a little house at the end of the garden and put a red light bed in there. And um, but I was a bit like, you know, where do I get them from? I don't uh how do I know that this manufacturer is actually telling me what they're telling me is the right light, and I can just be blowing because they're not cheap, some dough on not a great Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

I mean, you could make it yourself if you like. You know, I mean it's that easy to put a light onto a board, but actually you have to think about the wavelength, which you've mentioned, the dose that is so important. When you say the dose, so the amount of light energy that reaches that target. So what we you know, you need to have a certain amount of power of light over a certain amount of time that will give you the dose that you need. So you have to look through the thousands of papers, you know, the literature that exists. And I know you said, you know, is this new? No, it's not. LED phototherapy is not new, it's thousands and thousands of years.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

It's just the accessibility.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

It's just now, it's now the world is, you know, biology-led, you know, uh, and actually you can go in for all of the treatments that you'd mentioned, the trauma-driven treatments. We know that there's a place for that, and that absolutely, you know, you create trauma to get a result at the end. If you go into that treatment with bad biology in the first place, and your cells not equipped with the energy that they need to recover, to heal for collagen, for elastin, for hyaluronic acid, for growth factors, all the good stuff, you are not gonna get the result that you want to at the end. So people are understanding now that actually I do need to optimize cellular health. We're in this world of prejuvenation, we are preventative as opposed to being corrective. Corrective is always gonna be there. The structural, the lift, the volume treatments are needed, right? We we there we're only just coming into this world now, but the rest of the world is understanding I could, with the right approach, not need to go down that route later on. And if you optimize cellular health at the beginning with the one treatment that can reach the cell without any trauma, I mean that's amazing, isn't it? Just from a little bit of light and feeling like you're in Barbados for a little bit of time. So you can see why I get frustrated when people say, you know, feel your frustration. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 19:26

Yeah, it's only working with the body's own natural healing and repair mechanisms, or that that's what we're triggering that response rather than creating new trauma. You know, it's like when you cut your hand, your body will naturally repeat uh heal itself. But actually, you know, we don't want, we shouldn't always need to create more trauma to get that healing, wound healing response. We can do it in a very non-invasive, non-traumatic way.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

So and I'm sorry I I completely went off on one, but the the parameters then, what you were asking, why is it different? Why can I not just have any old LED? You need the right wavelength, you need the right dose of light, you need the right spacing of those LEDs, because if you have a device that sits directly on the surface of the skin with like six or seven LEDs in, what's happening is you're only treating the area, even if you've got enough dose, which anyway, um, but only you're only treating the area that that light touches. You imagine you've got a torch now, and I put the torch on the table, and you put you turn the light on, the light will only reach. If you lift that up, that light spreads. And we need to make sure it's completely uniform so we don't get hot spots or cold spots on the skin. So you need to make sure you've got that uniform delivery, you need accuracy, which is a whole nother podcast on why an LED is not just an LED. There's a huge testing process that goes through ours, um, which is very extreme. Uh, and you know, is nice and uh unique to us. But but these, all of these parameters, and then you have to put in the thermal management of it. We've got a device that overheats. I mean, physics is light, is going to create energy, energy can create heat. That's just simple physics. But you have to manage that because otherwise the wavelength drift, the dose drifts, everything drifts, and then the treatment that you have in on minute one is not the same as the treatment you have minute 10 or 20, which is then you're not having that consistency. So there's a lot to it. It is a science, it's really important. But you start with the biology first, build around that to make sure you get the dose that you need, and that is the way forward.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

Yeah, and I think I'm listening to you guys talk, dermalux, like you're a brand that I feel like you can trust. There's so much regulation in this industry, and there is lots of cowboys in this industry. I see it in the supplement industry the same, and I also have your frustrations, especially with one of our products, because it's quite technical, it's quite scientific. We're also talking about that signaling. And I look at people who are just looking at me like vacantly, I they don't know what the hell I'm talking about, as I'm sure there will be. Some people who, you know, even though we're talking about what light lengths, and you know, we're trying to spell it out for people, but I'm sure there's still a lot of people out there who still won't know what we're talking about. Yeah. But essentially, we're stimulating those fibroblasts to kickstart it, send a signal, you've got to rejuvenate your skin by boosting your collagen, elastin, hyaluronic acid, your growth factors, charging your batteries of your mitochondria.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Yes, exactly. And that's just one part. Yeah. We could be here all day with the, you know, you optimise cellular house, the cascade of benefits is insane. But you know what? Touching on nutrition as well is just as important because LED can put the foot on the pedal to allow the mitochondria to produce ATP, but you need something to go into the mitochondria to produce ATP. And you have to have good nutrition to make sure that it's working effectively together. So good nutrition, red light therapy, and you know, that whole lifestyle, well-being approach to everything that you're doing is going to make everything work so much better, right?

SPEAKER_02 23:05

Well, have you seen a big spike in people contacting you in regards to GLP ones?

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Oh, yes. We've, you know, we have quite a lot of conversations on that as well. Um, we are now depleting the body. When when you know, when you have GLP1s, it stops you from uh, you know, it stops you from overeating, right? You don't have that noise that there that's there anymore. When you do that, you deplete your body of the nutrients that you need, especially if you, you know, you're not on the right plan. So when you do that, what's the first thing that's going to be affected the mitochondria? It doesn't have what it needs for its output. You now affect the mitochondria, which is now why the skin isn't bouncing back. As you're losing weight, it doesn't, it doesn't still feel as firm as it was before because it doesn't have the energy that needs to repair itself. You also had this inflammation within the body when things aren't communicating now because the mitochondria wasn't working in the first place. So we we have a lot of people and a lot of our the medics that we work with across the globe actually that talk about using dermalux alongside that treatment pathway. It's really important to be able to make sure that your cells do have what they need and also have that nutrition advice. Really important uh to make sure that everything else is working.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

Out red light, you cut a a bad diet.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Yeah, and you can't you can't outperform biology either, right? So you we we have to optimize the biology and the cells that they're in, and you can only do that with good nutrition and and and red light, good skincare, and you know, and then there's the structural treatments if you need to. Moving your body, doing the basic body, exactly, yeah. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

So um let's talk about like company origin because dermalux, again, like I said before, I really feel like you are the best of the best. The Rolls Royce of Red Light. I was just so excited when he wanted to come on.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

We'll give you£10 later.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

Uh no, is this the truth? And I'd used it in uh my lovely clinician, Dr. Yusura's clinic. Oh, I used to be able to do that. MJ also uses it over at um Smileworks. Yeah. Um, yeah, big fans of Red Light. I always trust them too on pretty much everything. Oh, we trust them as well. Yeah. William Foley, he was another. He was brilliant. Yeah. So, and I just feel like you're setting the standard for this is where the red light industry should be, this is the checks and balances that we do. And if you could buy in one of our products, believe me, we've done the work. I feel that from you guys. Woman after my own heart, business after my own heart. Um, so tell me a bit about Dermalox.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

How did the company begin? How was it founded? So I think every brand has a moment, you know. So it's, you know, whether it's an idea, um, whether it's a problem to solve, or it's just we want to do something differently. And I think this was the the starting point for Dermolux back in 2012, as I said, you know, when yeah, when we started. Um, but you know, like we've just discussed, I think the the treatment landscape was very different then. So it was, you know, there was a lot of aggressive treatments, uh, or either they were just a feel-good treatment or it was very aggressive, you know, and we've like we've said, you know, a lot of these conditions are rooted in inflammation, and you know, including aging, you know, aging is you know really triggered by sort of inflammatory sort of uh responses in the body. So I think, you know, just sort of looking at that and then thinking, you know, the all these pro these sort of treatments aren't necessarily always appropriate. But that was my experience. You know, I had very problematic skin. I wasted a lot of money on skincare and you know, these aggressive treatments, which just made it worse. What were the problems you were having with your skin? A lot of sensitivity. I think it, you know, I think we we look at the barrier sort of sort of function, and you know, and it's a big problem today. People are overusing products, and I think you know, we just think, well, then we need to use something else. And yeah, just it's just you just going from one but to I was having like aggressive pills because my skin was just lumpy, I had acne, red, inflamed, and it was just you know, I was just I thought I've wasted all this money. And then I was introduced to red light, and and at the time, like I said, 14 years ago, it wasn't really sort of recognised. There was a you know, there was a another device in the market which had really been more into the medical field. There was none of these LED masks, it wasn't available really at home. Um, and I was sceptical, so you know, but I thought, right, I will try it. And you know, it was I think this the healing and regeneration mechanism, it just worked, you know. And for me, that was that was our moment. That was when Domelux, the or the you know, the inspiration for Domelux began. And obviously, you know, on the back of that, um, you know, as Mill said, so you know, it was all it we we understood that this the biology of it, and I think that actually that we needed to to invest in the technology that was actually just going to work alongside the biology of the skin, not really sort of against it. And that was a principle of the treatment anyway. Um, but then over the over the years, then we like we said we've invested into the the technology so to create our own LEDs, so we're not buying off-the-shelf LEDs like many other um devices in the market do. And we're not here to say anything, you know, derogatory about anyone else's device.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Your own.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

But you know, we we can only work on our own results, and you know, and we can prove, you know, we see time after time across such a huge scope of different sort of conditions, you know, even I get amazed by some of the healing benefits that we see. And actually, do you know what? It's just nice to be able to help people. You know, it's great that we can give this, you know, rejuvenation this, you know, this nice glow. But actually, when we can help people who have got you know inflammatory acne, you know, and it's it's affecting their lives. And you know, we've had a few other case studies quite recently, but these conditions where we can actually make a big difference for me that you know that's the I feel like there it is real mission-led.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

It first started with your own personal story, and then obviously you saw the results.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

Yeah, and I think it was only yeah, exactly. I think it was because I just I was at the end of my, I was like, what am I gonna do? You know, my skin was so unhappy and unbalanced. Um, and I yeah, like I said, I was skeptical, but I saw it, you know, I experienced it for myself, but I knew it could be better, and I knew there was a a real lack of education and understanding about it. I think, you know, it was oh, it's just a light, like we said. I think you know, people just think I'm lying under a light, where they're used to having it was at the time when you know 10-year zonga was on and everyone was bleeding, and you know, we thought that if if we weren't having this kind of trauma that you know we weren't going to get the result, but I think you know, we've seen how the um the how the the world has changed and how I think you know there are there is this money you know going into the wellness, you know, it's actually sort of stepping back and and cutting down, I think, really, and putting that into the whole perspective, and it has more benefits than just skin alone, anyway, as we know, as we said.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

So and like aging is modifiable now, like we know the but the biomarkers, the hallmarks of aging that um uh you know are the 12 hallmarks that we know trigger the aging process in the body, and every one of them is modifiable, one of those is mitochondrial dysfunction, and all of them are energy dependent. So when you target the mitochondria, we can influence all of those hallmarks of aging, either directly or indirectly. That's amazing. So when when you touch on the rejuvenation part of it and the way that the world is thinking, where we're biology regenerative led now, we understand the science more. If you start at the root, everything, every like I keep saying, this cascade of benefits, and we're not there's not thousands of different lights, there's not thousands of different combinations, it's the same mechanism for acne, it's the same mechanism for many different uh of the indications that we see because we know they all start right back at the beginning, which is that dysfunctional cell because it doesn't have what it needs for its output, or you know the signalling very well with you know everything that you've gone into. If the signaling isn't right, yeah, the the then then then that's when we have inflammation, then we're in this vicious cycle. So it's cool that we can, you know, just from that one mechanism, really pinpoint everything.

SPEAKER_03 31:13

But we have stuck with us the same three wavelengths we've stuck right from the very beginning because these are the ones that were backed by science. You know, we didn't invent these wavelengths, we just we just in we just took how we deliver those. We took the opportunity, but then developed the technology to deliver these wavelengths in the best possible way.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

So take me back because I'm very interested in business. So take me back, you spot the opportunity and you think, yeah, I think there's a business here to be run.

SPEAKER_03 31:36

Where do you begin? So we so we actually had a clinic. So Hugh, who's my co-founder, so we were involved in a clinic and and I thought, well, we need to offer this red light therapy. Um and you know, we we had a we at the time we just got a device in because there wasn't really many available, but it was it, you know, there was no, like I said, there was no education, and it was just it was just came with this is how you switch it on, and that was it. So there was a real lack of understanding. So even trying to communicate that to our clients who were coming into the clinic was you know was quite challenging. So I just invested in my time into just trying to understand this and and be able to then talk to the clients about it. Um, and then we you know we got the people together that we thought, right, we can, you know, we test how this how this light is going to be delivered into the skin. So we got an engineer, we got some medical people in, and uh but it was a slowly, slowly process. But then we were able to test that against this other product that we'd got, and we found we were getting better results. So at the time we could only deliver one wavelength uh through this other device. Here we were actually working to deliver the same wavelength, or sorry, multiple wavelengths at the same time. So once we added in, like, for example, the near-infrared wavelength, which is working much deeper, with the you know, the results just you know were accelerated. Absolutely. So, and and slowly, slowly. But you know, our our goal was always to be a British medical device manufacturer. You know, we wanted that heritage, we wanted that credibility, and we stuck true to our goals, you know, and uh obviously we're we're a global brand now. Um, but I think having that um the the obviously the backing of the science, the medical certification, which has been no mean feat to not only to get-just to pick you up on that.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

It is no mean feat to get a medical certification.

SPEAKER_03 33:16

But also to maintain it, I think, you know, and I think you know, we we work, you know, we have a whole department that you that focus on that and are doing that day and and not only just for the you know in in the UK Europe, but actually for globally, because there are different regulations across the world. So allow to allow us to be a go a global brand, of course, we have to comply in each different sort of region. Yeah.

unknown 33:40

It's fun.

SPEAKER_03 33:41

But but again, I think that's what you know, we've we've continually invested into the business to allow us, you know, because it's what do people look for? You know, it it's the safety, it's the quality, it's the efficacy. What do the MHRA allow you to say against red light? So it depends on on how the device is certified. You know, if it's if it's a just a C device which is non-medical, then you can't make any medical claims. But if the device is certified as a medical, and this is also very different to something like FDA, for example, in the US, because people I think think, you know, FDA is the is credible.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

If you get FDA approved, then they think it's the same as the UK, they might know it's not a completely different regulatory body.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

It's far tougher and and yeah, because medical CE is more about proving that it can deliver the results. FDA is more about the safety of the device. So, you know, both are are very credible. But actually, you know, to be able to say that we can treat acne, so we can, so we have indications, so we have acne, um, we've got um pain relief, wound healing. But to say we can actually claim that we can treat acne, then we have to have been certified. So we've got to prove that we can treat acne and we have to be then go through all this process and be certified. Does that how does that happen?

SPEAKER_02 34:54

Through clinical trials that you guys have to undertake, pay for, you know, which can be hugely expensive.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

And they have to be independent as well, of course, and then uh audits. So we get audit, we get audited every year. So by different notified bodies as well. So and and that will depend on you know the region that we're so we have to continue to comply. It's not an it's not an easy interesting. No, it's not just to do it and then then know when they're turning up sometimes. It was um it was quite interesting. I don't know. I think it was sort of at the end of last year the BBC picked up on um this um on LED therapy because there was quite a lot of companies making these claims on acne where they weren't medically certified. So so you you asked about the MHRA. But it's the same as the supplement company, they can say what they bloody well want. But the MHRI could shut you down if it you know, or they they enforce you to to remove those claims.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

I'm on the fence about it. I think they turn around and say that ingredient has no claims or it has on hold claims, now you can't use it. But then I'll say why. And they went, well, there's a drug interactions, and I'll say, so it must work then. There must be something then to it. Like honestly, they do my head in, I'll be honest.

SPEAKER_03 36:04

Because you know what they're like, but we're and the regulations are changing anyway, so we're moving into a different regulation, so going through all that and the EU, yeah, and obviously, yeah, so coming in K. But there is the UK CA as well, which is another, which yeah, we've just recently sort of maybe we should have just stuck some LEDs on a board.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

But that's that's the that and that is the difference, and then you get people who are like, you know, importing stuff from China who aren't doing the regulatory checks, they're going to the Canton Fair, they're grabbing loads of red light therapy, bits and bobs, I don't know, you know, a mask here, a head, a cap from there, whatever. And then they're using the claims that you've really worked hard to get with your markers, with you, you're allowed to say it because you you've done all the testing, the clinical trials, etc. And then they're just, you know, setting up an Instagram page and wanging it on there and scaling the business.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Well, obviously, with the BBC, that's not the case though anymore. You know, with everyone was jumping off the back of, well, it's treats app me, with they can't say that anymore.

SPEAKER_03 37:08

So they got highlighted anyway, and then they and they had to either change the claims that they're making or remove themselves from the map.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

So, like the ones that you would pick up in boots, for example, are they certified medically certified or not? So they can't make any claims.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

A lot of them are spot prone skin or they just say it in different ways. Yeah, yeah. So the m most of the thing is.

SPEAKER_03 37:33

Blue light, it has more of I think causes more of the issues. So red light, because we know it's more about rejuvenation or you know, the anti-aging sort of um sort of claims on it, and they're cosmetic, they're not they're not a medical claim. A medical claim is when we're treating it like a medical condition. So yeah, anything that's healing, um, acne, you know, more of these inflammatory sort of conditions.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

So you guys are primarily known for stocking clinics, aren't you? Expert, like uh expaticians and professionals. Yeah. But you've just slightly moving into the consumer market.

SPEAKER_03 38:04

So our flex device um is certified. So it was the the flex was developed for the professional market, um, more as a sort of an entry level. So we have three devices in the range, our Trio of MD, which is our gold standard hero device, um, and then we have our compact light. But yeah, the flex was just so people that maybe uh maybe couldn't afford to sort of um to invest in one of the bigger devices or really just wanted to try Dermalux and you know, to for their reassurance really to see that we're going to deliver what we you know what we claim. Um but we also have a home use certification on that as well. So it it is for it is for both. So um, yes, so we do have home users using it, but I I think b because red light has become so popular for the home use, obviously then bringing that sort of more to the attention of the of the home market is something that we're going to be focusing on.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

I mean, I don't know if you want to quote me on this, but I would say it's like the Rolls-Royce of the home device.

SPEAKER_03 38:59

Oh, we love that. Love it. That's a good one. But when it's it's setting the, you know, against masks and against other devices in its, I suppose in its category, even though it it does sit above that, um, you know, and there are similar devices, but yeah, I think it's it's still it's the dermlux technology that's in that device, you know, and it and it's got the dermlux guarantee of results, and and and I think that's the most and also that the fact that it can be used in a professional clinic as well. So people are getting those professional results at home. How often do you think you should do it?

SPEAKER_02 39:34

Should you do it every day?

SPEAKER_03 39:36

Uh well, because of the the um specification of the device, the power of the device, you know, you can you I mean you can use it every day, but you don't need to do it every day. Obviously, the more powerful devices, so our triwith and our compact, we usually say sort of twice, two or three times a week.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

Because it's the dose, right? It's the dose that we need to make.

SPEAKER_03 39:53

Well, can you overdose on it?

SPEAKER_01 39:54

I mean, yeah, you you could, you could overdose. You not not that it causes the same effects that normal overdose and would cause you, but it can actually stop. It's something called the biphasic dose response. I know that's super boring, but um but actually if you use too much, you start to decline the benefits that you get. So you're not causing problems. You don't see what you want to see.

SPEAKER_03 40:16

A bit like a sponge. If you put a sponge in some water and it's saturated, you'll, you know, you're at the maximum, but you want to maintain it at the maximum. So, no, it I think that the the takeaway from this is that LED is probably one of the safest treatments that you can have. And this is was was another factor for us, you know. It's got minimal um contraindications, you know. I don't think we've had, you know, in terms of anything, any issues that it's it's usually if it's combined with another treatment or people are on photosensitive medication and they've not disclosed it, for example. So I think that the safety factor of it is is huge. Obviously, we can't talk for other devices that may have come off the shelf in China and have not been regulated, but you know, from our stance, we know it's a safe treatment. So I think I'd say it does become quite addictive. So yeah, it's it's quite easy to just be doing it regularly.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

That's the warning is a lovely part of like my wind-down routine. I put my little girl to bed, and I need to relax after that because it's like, come on, we start at six o'clock because I know it's going to take two hours for you to actually go to sleep.

SPEAKER_03 41:16

But it does, it makes you switch off, and I think that's nice because you can't have your phone. Okay, you could listen to some music or a podcast. Um, I find it's my time just to totally switch off. I'm the same. I put a podcast on.

SPEAKER_02 41:27

I usually listen back to my own podcast. Just there's no way, there's no other way to get better than to listen to yourself back and cringe and die.

SPEAKER_03 41:35

But you you're zoned into that, yeah, to that moment as well. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

I know I'm asleep in seconds under my um, so I think this is what the audience really wants to know. So if they go out and buy your device tomorrow, uh, when should they like expect to see results?

SPEAKER_03 41:54

That's a good one, actually. I from my side I'll go first. Um, I think it depends on what we're treating, and it depends on the severity of what we're treating as well, because I think everybody's skin is different, and going back to your biology, you know, we it depends what's going on in the body and and somebody's sort of sort of health as well. So I think you know it can be dependent. But uh it the key is consistency, especially if we're looking at something like that that you know, well, with anything, but if they're going to be using the flex at home, then there needs to be a level of consistency. So we say usually what uh maybe sort of 10 10 sessions. Yeah. But I think it's a bit like going to the gym, you know, the more you do, the closer together, you you're going to start to see a benefit. I think the nice thing with our devices is because of the specification and and uh the power is not, like we said, important, but actually, yeah, because of the specification of it, you will see more noticeable results faster than you would if you were using something at a lower specification.

SPEAKER_01 42:51

Because we understand, I know I keep talking about but the optimal dose, the right amount of light to trigger that change. Um, for me, you have one treatment and everybody is obsessed with the dermalux glow, right? That is the thing that's going down on the streets. We all are obsessed straight away. But actually, give it 24, 48 hours later, you really notice a difference. Like your makeup goes on differently, the skin feels and looks different. You wake up in the morning and it's not like down here anymore, it's actually where you want it to be. Even if no, no, no, exactly. Up here now. Um, but it you know, you notice it and you you know, give give your skin a couple of days to really start to see that impact on the skin surface. Um, but it depends, like you said, on the indication that's coming through. Everybody is different. Um we do get asked a lot in your hand resession, but because because it's so individual.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

But like I said, I know it literally go, When will I get results? And I'm like, don't look at it like that. I want to look at it for it. You are doing this consistently, and if you do, you're gonna get the great results.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

100% it compounds. The benefits compound, the more you put into it, the better you. Start to see that it's exactly the same in nutrition. There are so many things that can, you know, um affect how different bodies absorb those. It's exactly the same with us. There's lots of components in the way, you know, skin is not a uniform organ. There's lots of things that, you know, we have to make sure that we can reach that target point of the sale. You've got more melanin, you've got all of these different things, but the more consistent you are, the better that then that that opportunity to see those results. And and that's what we the business, I mean, was built on results. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 44:32

And we've stood by that all along, you know. We're, you know, if you and we do like to share them, you know, we like to talk to our you know our clients and ask them to share their case studies, you know, and they're often more than happy because these, you know, it's the transformation can be, you know, you know, exceptional, really. So, and I think you know, we can show that to people, but like I said, not just in the rejuvenation side, but across a wide range of different sort of conditions as well.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

Yeah. Okay, so what uh, you know, I've got the derma looks if they're the flex MD at home. I want to know if I'm using it right. So, you know, what is the optimal position? Eyes open, eyes closed, naked skin, moisturizer, you know, what's the best? What time of day?

SPEAKER_01 45:12

This is a good question because a lot of people would also get it wrong, right? So no SPF on your skin. If you've got SPF on your skin, that is a total block. There's no light is going to get in. So clean your skin, make sure everything is removed. Um and the great thing about the flex is that it is designed to be the perfect distance away from the skin. So it needs to be around two and a half to four centimetres away from the skin, so it sits in that halo, right? Which is really easy to put it in. You then would um yeah, have that treatment for 30 minutes. It depends what your goal is. If you have bacteria on the skin, which would be acne or you know, breakouts, um, then you need blue. If you don't have that bacterial load, you don't use blue. There is no other need for it. It is not photobiomodulation or phototherapy, it is photodynamic, which means it is there to sterilize the bacteria on the skin. Then, if you have your concern is rejuvenation, you need red. And in my opinion, you always need near infrared. Uh, that is the wavelength I like to talk about all the time.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

Uh I mean, for me, there's only one setting on it. Yeah. You know, it's the near-infrared. Yeah, exactly. Every time.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Everything's always near-infrared. But the great thing about a dermelux device is that you don't have to just have the one wavelength, right? You can have the combination of them. Can I? Yeah, probably everyone. Oh no, you know.

SPEAKER_02 46:37

So you've not read the instructions properly. Yeah, but no one does.

SPEAKER_03 46:45

At the same time. So I think again, just looking at how our LEDs, this it's sort of in a nutshell, how our LEDs have been developed. So we only deliver one wavelength of light from one LED. So if you look at other devices in the market, they may be delivering several different um wavelengths from one LED. You know, they might say, Well, we've got you know 400 different you know, LEDs, but it's actually just multi-chip LEDs, but that's diluting the efficacy and the dose of light that's being delivered per wavelength as well. So, yeah, you'll see on our multicolors. So, yeah, no, you need to be getting on your red and your neuron thread together. Right.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

That's the ultimate for rejuvenation. Yeah, okay, it's fine. And but it is easy, you know, like you've just got the um goggles, important, yeah, always pop them on. Good. It's too bright without them. Yeah, very good. And then, you know, your favourite pop star in the mirror is whatever.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

Yeah, so Gary Brecker is always banging on about he's always looking at his red light, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

Yeah, yeah. So the you know, there there's so many different studies to show that it can help with, you know, eye degeneration and improve your eyesight. But that that is very specific in terms of how long you need to be looking at it, how far away you need to be, what the dose of light is. So I wouldn't suggest anyone go staring at the at the at the this light for um for now. Who knows what happens in the future? Um, but this is designed specifically for you know re for targeting the skin. Also, therefore, we need to protect our eyes.

SPEAKER_02 48:20

Okay, okay. So I was like, am I whipping these goggles off and doing it Breca style?

SPEAKER_01 48:25

Yeah, I mean, I know they're not Gucci, but I think it's an indication of of the power of the device, you know.

SPEAKER_03 48:29

So you look at other devices in the market. Yeah, well, you don't need them because yeah, there isn't a a need for them, but actually with ours, because and and obviously it's been through the medical testing, and this is what we need to, yeah, we need to provide.

SPEAKER_02 48:42

I feel it is strong, and as soon as I I know it I might I feel something on my skin as soon as I come off it. Yeah. I literally said that to my partner, I went, it's gotta be doing something because I feel it. Yeah, I I honestly do feel like warm in the skin. Yeah, so I know it's doing something. That means it's doing something, right? Whereas I I see these people who've got these like masks on and they're watching telly, and I'm like, So there used to be a girl who used to work in my office and she was obsessed with it every single night, red light mask, blah blah blah. And I was like, just like, oh yeah, I really noticed the difference. I was like, jewelry's out for me on that. In fact, I said, buy me someone for the podcast. This was last year, and I was like, because the jewelry's out for me on these masks, I want to get to the nitty-gritty and the bottom of it. And uh obviously, then you know, you used to speak to Yusra about it, and she was like, No, no, Damn looks really good. So then I was like very interested. Then obviously, everyone's back in your corner, William, MJ, all the rest of you guys. But I've never been sold on the at-home device, I've never invested in one because I don't believe it's strong enough.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

Yeah, it's the dose, the dose, the whole point of that again, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

And I feel like you'd waste like you're putting that on. And there's another laser that I'll ask you about off the podcast later. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 49:50

I suppose it's like you know, you look at any technology that's available in the clinic, and there are there are often, you know, home versions of them, you know, but they can never be as powerful, you know, and that but it but i if the specification is right, then you know, the and and it's how you then use them. You have to use them more frequently, and yeah, but um yeah, it all comes down to the specifications, isn't it? So And does it work on all skin tones equally? Yeah, well it so we don't have any um distinction between using cut on different. So if you write, you know, a zero on the Fitzpatrick scale or a five or six, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

The the higher you are on the Fitzpatrick's scale, there's m there's more melanin, more pigment in the skin. So there's more uh, you know, uh that that light has to compete to to get to where we want it to be. So you normally would have more treatments. So, you know, and and and not much more, but you'll find that it might just be a little bit longer until you start to see that result.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 50:49

Um, but it's not the same as, for example, laser where it has to be on different settings, you know, if you're a a darker skin type, because obviously we're still delivering a lower dose of energy into the skin.

SPEAKER_02 51:00

Should we be putting any skincare products on? Oh, that's the big debate, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 51:04

Before the treatment, yeah. Or after. I think the problem is that you have to be careful of anything that's going to block the light, like we said, or reflect. So anything that's like oil-based, um, if it's water-based, I mean, our protocol is more or less just without it. But then, you know, we do collaborate with some skincare brands, um, and the protocol is fine. I think after it.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

Yeah, definitely after. Just my advice if you want to use it, you know, make sure it's not like an opaque, thick mask, you know, any colour in it whatsoever, whatever you put on. You know, there are some studies to show that there's benefits to put hyaluronic acid on and ceramides and peptides on beforehand. So that that's absolutely fine.

SPEAKER_03 51:48

Yeah, I think as long as it's absorbed into the skin and you haven't got that oily film. And you know, and we do also get asked about these sheet masks, you know, can they be used? Because I know some devices recommend to use sheet masks before it, or during during it. Well, that that makes no sense to me. But then you're blocking the light, you want to get in. Realistically, you wonder then what's done the you know, if you've put a hyaluronic acid mask on and then the LED over it, what's actually given the glow? Is it the hyaluronic acid? You know, so I think Well there'll be no light getting into your skin.

SPEAKER_02 52:16

But all those masks are like I mean, wow, I just came back from Cosmoprof. And um, my god, those sheet masks are here to stay. Yeah, they aren't slowing down. What a juggle. And I per I've done them. I personally believe they are a nonsense. And uh even though I'm talking to the guys manufacturing, I don't mind the under-eye things, I think they're quite cool, they just rejuvenate me and I wear them while I'm driving usually into work. But um, I'm asking a guy who's manufacturing them. I said, Do you know the colour change of masks? Because what you're supposed to believe is like something soaking into your skin, and he was like, It's just when it oxidizes with the air, yeah, and then it dries out, it's drying out, that's all that's happening. And I'm not listening I'm not even on TikTok, so I'm just not fed into this stuff, but um I I think they are complete horseshit.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

I love I love the world. If someone said to me, What is the one thing that you would love to change is the TikTok educators. But it's always what's the next trend?

SPEAKER_02 53:13

I think everyone's always chasing the next trend. Well, the I can tell you what the next trends were because I've just written about it for uh my Cosmoprophet experience. There's so much good stuff. Uh some stuff that was really like, whoa, that's really cool and innovative. And um, yeah, so a lot of it was all about texture and sensory kind of overload. So it wasn't just a moisturizer, it was a moisturizer with capsules in now. So the actives would be inside the capsules, so as you're rubbing it on your skin, it would like burst on your skin. Felt very good. A lot of thermogenic products are coming out, moisturizers, so heating and cooling moisturisers. Again, it would have menthol in it or you know, menthol mask or something like that. Any benefit? No, but it's all about that like sensory rich change. So you feel because it's doing something. Well, it's just a sensation. Well, yeah, you feel like you can feel something, so you'd feel like a mask heating up on you a little bit, and uh then yeah, there was some there was a few this was actually really cool brand called Peslo, even though I've messaged them since I've been home and they just keep fucking me off though. But Peslo, they um they had done a sunscreen um that was a balm into a powder. Oh so I'm very innovative, cool design. So it was like a pot like that, and you went twisted it like that, and it came up like a sharpener, it was very thin. You had this um like a like a blush applied, and then it went from a balm and powdered in. So it was an SPF and your UV blocker, so you put it over your makeup, very cool, loved it.

SPEAKER_01 54:45

Yes, that's um and we think that's cool, you know. SPF is so important.

SPEAKER_02 54:49

Well, there's another one that I fell in love with. Again, I keep messaging them. I'm like, Can you just send me some samples or whatever? They're just they don't even care. Well, it's a brands, the Korean brands, they haven't got any presence in the UK, which is why I was like, where can I buy it from? Yeah, and I was like, Well, let me buy it wholesale from you. Like, fucking, where am I getting it? For God's sake sending me from Korea.

SPEAKER_03 55:10

I think you know, SPF's always one of those things that people think, oh, it's heavy on my skin, is it gonna block my skin? Wait till you see this. I'll show you the pictures. But it'll be it's a good way to encourage people to start using SPF. And then yeah, so as part of our protocol, we would, you know, there's no point in repairing your skin if you're then gonna go out in the sun and yeah, absolutely. So SPF is really important.

SPEAKER_02 55:30

Yeah, I'm just trying to think what other cool stuff is that. Oh, mega aerosol that went shh into a makeup pad. An aerosol liquid like that in your hand, and it went into a makeup pad, you know, like a circular pad. Unbelievable. That was that won one of the innovative innovation awards. Was that magic? It was magic. Fair play to them. And then the other one that I first dismissed and I thought, oh yeah, whatever. And then I thought, no, genuinely, they've people have turned the corner here. What innovation was amazing there. But it was uh, you know, like you get flushable um wet wipes, so I immediately saw this flushable makeup toner. I was like, oh yeah, whatever. Because it's not they're not really flushable, are they? There's still gonna be someone else's sewage problem somewhere else. Yeah, yeah. It might get past your U-bend, but it's gonna cause a fat bag somewhere in the Thames. Um, but yeah, this was genuinely dissolvable in water, so it was a makeup toner pad that you would use on your face, and then you just dip it in water, it disintegrated. It was made out of plant fibres.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

Love that. We were just talking about a shampoo that does exactly the same thing, all the wrapper and everything. You take the the bit out, you let it all fall down into the shower, it all dissolves. Mega look of the world we're living in, hey? Spicules. Oh, yes, yes, yes. I I've looked into that myself as well. Um we should say what they are if people are listening to the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 56:53

Well, yeah, go for it. So spicules are little tiny bits of sponges. Um again, there is good grades of them, yeah, and TikTok probably grades of them. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you can get genuine benefits from that, the really good bit of sponge, and they're putting them inside serums, and it creates a little bit of a damage, a little bit of a channel in the skin, and allows that serum to go in.

SPEAKER_01 57:13

It's like mm mm-hmm. Yeah, maga needling. It's like mica needling, exactly the same thing. Um, but obviously, yeah, let's throw them away. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

And a home use way, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:23

So there were so many cool stuff.

SPEAKER_02 57:25

I've written like uh there was a lot of gimmicky rubbish as well.

SPEAKER_01 57:28

You need to write like a book or something, we'll all do that once a year.

SPEAKER_02 57:31

I actually just wrote a piece and I'm gonna put it on my friend's substack. It's actually Claire Coleman, she's not really she's an acquaintance, she's a colleague. Um, I wouldn't go so far as a stage for friend. I'd like her to be my friend, but it just scares me a bit. Um so yeah, so um I wrote on her Substack and she's gonna publish it. But um, yeah, I was like, I like because I'm I'm a journalist first and foremost, so I like doing that kind of stuff, but like I've got no outlet for it these days. And she was like, Well, why don't you start a newsletter? You know, just add it to the list of things you're already doing. I was like, Yeah, I don't know. Just add that.

SPEAKER_03 58:06

You've gone out and researched what's there, and like you said, I think it's just you could do that probably every week, and it's just you know, it's what's coming.

SPEAKER_02 58:13

So lots of gimmicky rubbish, uh collagen uh gym kit. I was like, right, uh what's you know, how do you how are you absorbing that then? You know what I mean? They've they've put collagen inside the fibers, and I'm just like you've you you know, and then there's another brand who are doing probiotic skin care uh gym kit as well. So you've got probiotic gym kit, collagen-based gym kit. So listen, there's a trend me want to watch because there's a trend going there. Do I believe in it? No, I think it's complete nonsense and another way to hoodwink money out of women who, you know, are thinking, oh that that clothing's giving me, you know, it's plastic, I don't want to wear it. Uh just stick to cotton.

SPEAKER_01 58:57

Yeah. I I think the world is changing there. We're all a bit more savvy now before we put our money down, right? You would think that.

SPEAKER_02 59:03

But I'm seeing Medicube absolutely boom, and that calls itself collagen, and you can't, you know, the d the Dalton size of that product is 3,000 and you can only really absorb anything under 500. So what what? You literally just sit in there and washing off.

SPEAKER_03 59:19

The whole business, I'd be like, I don't know why anyone's buying it. This goes back to the regulatory sort of conversation, doesn't it? You know, about and like you said, I think people are doing the research, but they've got to know what they're researching, you know. It and it's about education, I think, isn't it? You know, I think we're quite aligned on how we think about our own products and how we talk, but you know, we've always been educated.

SPEAKER_02 59:41

Well, you know, and I know exactly what you go through in that back end. Yeah. Because you I know these people that you're dealing with, and it ain't easy. And it it's actually awful to do things right the right way, and you have to be on the right side of them, you have to kiss arse with them all the time. And they're like, oh, yeah, yeah. You know, but and then and then you see, you know, people just putting claims out there on everything. This will cure ADHD, this is gonna help this, this is gonna help that, and they're making 25 million. And I'm just like, oh great.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:11

But it cut you know, it's not a long-term approach, and it's not um it's not a credible approach either, I think. And we know we because we've we've been very strong in the professional market as well, you know, for so long, you know, and we've built that like you know, like the the credibility and authority, I think, in our space, um, and we've stayed true to that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:29

Um I think we're terrible. We we've all got a drawer of stuff that we got jumped on the bandwagon. We are actually really bad. We're like, oh so we look and then you know you don't continue, you're not loyal anymore. It's the people that you know when you have a brand that you are, you know, you are seeing those results and you're committed to understanding that that the it takes time, that's the one that you stay loyal to. I'll always have the same foundation or the same lipstick, but I'll have a drawer of ones that I'll tell you know the money that I wasted. Exactly. We're we'll it's all over. We are very bad actually. I'm like, and we buy at the same time, we're like, I'm gonna get it, you're gonna get it, let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:08

I I am really bad. I've got drawers, I could go shopping in my own wardrobes all day long, and it'd be absolutely fine. Same with my own drawers and skincare. Yeah, exactly. I look I came out of Cosmoproph thinking I would hate to be a skincare brand. Like I would hate to look at what you're up against.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:23

Yeah, it's hard.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:24

It's cutthroat nowadays.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:26

But then you do have the one, like there's you know, we have the ones that we could never leave. The skincare and you know, different times as well. Oh my goodness, go ahead now. So uh there's not one. I have something from every single one. And you know what? We're meant to keep things very simple in everything that we do, and that's not the case for me. I'm obsessed with skin. So um share all my thousands of uh I I love uh there's something that I use from skin suiticals, there's something that I use from the Is it the C Yes, I've got that on the Pharelix now. Um there's uh Illumin AMD, they've got great iPads that you you know that you can use that you're touching on a moment ago. Dermologica, they have a great, great product actually, but it's professional that you can use with LED, which is amazing. Um there's uh I mean there's Medicaid Medicaid. Oh, so the Medicaid, I use the Messiah water, so easy to use. So I like things that are easy and quick, but I also love the experience, you know, that is important to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:26

Well, you would have loved those new, like that was a huge that was the biggest trend at Cosmopath.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:31

It was the experience of putting it, it was like texture and sensory texture, it was like everywhere, but being good to yourself as well, you know, looking after yourself and feeling good, like getting before you get to bed, taking your makeup off, doing that routine, having your LED, you know, you line up your supplements, like it's that whole experience, and you feel good. Yeah, that's what it's about. I do think the simplicity of it is it is important.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:55

If you do your red light, then you know you can cut back on your routine.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:59

It's your foundation. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, completely agree. So just to wrap up before we do, uh, a lot of my listeners are in perimenopause and menopause, dealing with maybe hormonal skin changes, thinning, dryness, a loss of elasticity. What does the evidence say for things like that regarding the red light?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:17

There's a lot. There's a there's different types, you know, there's red light can support with, you know, um flushing and um brain fog and all of these things that happen. But I guess what is the most important is that we know that we have this huge drop in estrogen. Estrogen is important for absolutely every function of the skin, particularly collagen production. We absolutely notice that as soon as we go through that. And what we need though is we need to support the cells to be able to keep producing that energy to keep the fibroblast cell with their energy to be able to produce the collagen, the elastin, the hyaluronic acid that we're losing at that stage. So we have a lot of clinics across the globe, in fact, that are um have menopause protocols with dermalux. So they are coming in pre-menopause, you know, preconditioning the skin, getting ready for this change that the cells know how to respond when this happens, but then also during, um, where the skin can be so topsy-turvy, breakouts one month, you know, one month, the skin a lot drier, more dehydrated. You just feel like you wake up and your skin is aged about 20 years. And that is because of this real shift in everything that's happening. So optimizing the cellular environment, optimizing the biology as as early as you can, and then consistency throughout, and then obviously after that, we want it for the rejuvenation aspects of it as well, to keep things, you know, moving through. So it's a nice thing to do is where when you're feeling you know, really exhausted throughout the day because everyone feels that, you know, to be able to switch off, go upstairs, have your moment, have a bit of red light, and and just switch off from the day. There is no better self-care, I don't think. And we need it more when we go through that step phase in life. I mean, I'm 40, I'm obviously still a baby, right? At 40, it's definitely still a baby. Um, but you know, uh, I see the most amazing women in my life, and I see how it changes so much for them. It is scary. But if you have the right nutrition and you know, you have these things that you can do that can support as early as you can. We I know I'm coming through it, I'm gonna go through it soon. And you know, I I know how to better prepare my body beforehand, it makes things a little easier. Yeah. And and and and that's you know, that's my advice. But there is lots of evidence on you know, LEDs through for many reasons.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:54

I think, yeah, like you said, the symptoms, you know, if you look at all the symptoms that are visible in the skin and and how they yeah, how they. So yeah, obviously collagen is a big thing. But it's also then how your skin repairs, I think, as well. And you know, yeah, so you know, where whether that's just from you know a bit you know, stress or day to day or even the environment, you know, if our skin's stronger, it can cope with these you know these effects better.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:18

Um a lot of people think uh they notice this age and process, then it kind of accelerates and they go in for these treatments, the structural treatments, uh but it you know you you need to have the ski the cells at as I say at an optimal level to be able to recover from that. Because if you had if you're going through the menopause and then you have something like microneedling or filler or what appeals, the body uh uh is much slower to heal, it's much slower to respond because you don't have those processes working at the optimal level. So that again is why a lot of people are using it preconditioning, uh during and post recovery.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:57

I mean, essentially it should be a treatment that is a regular part of a skincare regime, and a regular part of lifestyle regime. Exactly, yeah. You know, like we would, you know, we would always think about clean our skin, putting moisturizer on. It's just work something that's working at a deeper level, but as a part of that sort of daily routine, whether that's using it at home or obviously going into a clinic and having it as part of the you know uh a sort of skin health protocol.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:23

So that sleep is also massive for my audience, especially when you're going through perimenopause, menopause, processorone drops, sleep can be disrupted, you're waking up at 3 a.m. Is there anything that near infrared and you know, is there a sleep quality connection there with infrared light?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:38

100% it's the circadian rhythm, you know. If I think if someone said to me, What is the one thing that would impact your skin the most? For me, it is not enough sleep. And actually, that's everything. It's sleep.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:55

And then the next day you can eat like a horse because you're so underslept. Your body craves energy. It's going back to the energy, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:03

Yeah, but we could get that by that's just saying if I know if I'm if I'm tired, yeah, and I know I've got to do something and function, you know, a a quick power nap under the light, and I'm ready to go, you know, and I see that difference, how that you know that can give it's okay, you get a bit of a quick fix boost, but because I'm doing it regularly, I feel the longer term benefits of it as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:24

And and mitochondria have a 24-hour um like biological clock.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:31

So you have to be able to keep them uh protecting the body and and you're supplying for the energy demand during the day, and then they have to switch off at night, not switch off, but they use their energy slightly differently and now in repair mode. If you're not in repair mode and you don't give yourself the time in repair mode, then you're then that that's where the results become you know that are affected. So um, you know, there are lots of studies to show that red light helps with melatonin, and a a lot of people will have red light before they go to to sleep. And that's why, you know, in your home, making sure that you have uh lights that are warmer uh and and before you start to go to sleep. And in the evening, you don't want bright fluorescent lights because your bro your brain is thinking, uh, is this morning? Do I need to be alert? Let's, you know, we're not using our bodies in the right way. So, yes, there's lots of studies to show again that that light can support with sleep, but that it and that is a super important thing that we do. So if you wake up at three o'clock in the morning, I'd say get up, let let your body know that you're awake instead of lying there for hours and worrying that you've got to be up for the kids or whatever in the morning. Get up, walk around the house, do something, and then just come back to bed and start the whole route routine again. And then make sure before you go to bed, have your red light.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:52

Yeah, definitely. And just last one to wrap up like, where's this technology going in the next five years then? Seems so exciting. And where are we gonna be seeing it?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:01

For LED. Yeah, well, for yeah, well, for for LED.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:04

All of it. Where you see, you know, I I'm we're gonna be brushing.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:07

I'm now looking at f at flushable, you know, time paths. Yeah, I think we're just at the beginning, you know, even though it's been around, you know, but I think I think it's evolved so much in the last, I don't know, five, six years, you know, we saw a massive turning point around COVID time as well. And I think that's where this boom of people wanting to do things at home, particularly, and obviously now there's you know, that you can do more or less anything you want to, you know, all these treatments are now been adapted to do at home, haven't they? But I think but I think more of the even the more medical sort of applications of it, you know, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:40

I mean there's so many more surgeons using it pre- and post-recovery. You know, a lot of the surgeons are saying that most people now that come in are more interested in what the downtime and the recovery will be than the actual end result. And if the recovery is not there, then they don't go ahead with it in the end. Like that's the seems to be the main main focus. So having something that that helps you for that recovery process. But I think you know, we'll be brushing our teeth to it, we'll be stood in the shower with red light. We're when our children are uh you know coming home with bruises, we'll have the flex on the knees, there'll be all of these things happening so many buttons exactly that that this will all be it, it will be a huge part to our first time.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:19

Well, do you know what I I think because I'm a productivity stacker and I haven't got any time in the day, and I'm like, how can I get my 10,000 steps, my exercise, my this, my that, and that, uh, whatever. Can I can you do like an exercise bike that's like in a pod that's just full red light, like almost like this size of this chair, but it's like an exercise bike like that. So it could be watching telly or watching something back, but also got my red light right next to me that's in the close, you know, yeah, to my skin. So it's actually gonna work, but I'm also getting my exercise in.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:53

And okay, so nobody else could so nobody else that's ours now, so leave all of that. Can we can we name it after me? Can I invest in it? Yeah, exactly. But you know, there's so many studies to show that if you use red light before you go into exercise, you give the sounds what they need to be able to take you further and longer in your workout, and then you come out with near infrared to recover.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:19

Yeah, so basically, so while I'm I did the red light bed when I was at Williams, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, I fall asleep, brilliant. But I was like, actually, I could do I haven't staff sat on my ass all day here. I could have done with like doing this. And that's what I was thinking about.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:33

I need to enjoy the moment.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:35

No, no, never got time. Well, I literally I need to be building my muscle tissue. I'm 40 now, I'm like, I'm losing it, so I need to keep it going. And I was thinking, but it needs to be private, so it needs to be like a pod-based thing because basically you want to be almost naked, like putting a bikini on or something because I want all the red light to hit me all at once.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:53

Okay, so that's the Dermelux El Serra thing, so no one else can play that too. Okay, fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:57

Sorry, we'll be first to market.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:00

Love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:01

Just thank you. Give us till next week. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you for inviting us. It's lovely to chat. I've loved it. I think it's been really good. Uh, I'm sure I'm gonna have a lot of customers going out and buying the flex. I can really vouch for it. I'm gonna do a little review on it on my Instagram, but I've loved it and I've loved learning a bit more about you guys, the company, and uh where red light is going. So thank you. Fantastic. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:24

Thank you very much. Thanks.