Does Bluey ACTUALLY Have ADHD?

Presented by Understood.org

You feel seen by something that wasn’t meant for you.

Skye and Robbie explore whether Bluey reflects ADHD patterns or just captures behaviour accurately.

Using DSM criteria, they break down distraction, unfinished tasks, and how patterns are identified over time.

This episode sits right on the line between observation and diagnosis and shows you how to think about both.

What We Cover:

• Where observation stops and diagnosis starts
• Why realistic behaviour can feel diagnostic
• How ADHD criteria actually gets applied
• The risk of over-interpreting behaviour
• Why this conversation matters beyond the show

If you're enjoying ADHD Skills Lab, you may also enjoy Understood.org’s new podcast, Sorry, I Missed This.

Listen here: https://lnk.to/sorryimissedthisPS!theadhdskillslab

 P.S. Losing work because the admin layer around your business can't keep up with you? Invisible Systems is a 90-day done-for-you sprint where I (Skye) extract the processes from your head, build the operating layer, and find the right person to run it. Six spots left at the founding price, book a call at invisiblesystem.co

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

As the episode goes on, Louie becomes more and more frustrated with Chattermax the toy, because Chattermax the toy is distracting her. And I feel like it becomes almost like a representation of the internal experience of being in Louis's head. And now we sort of see an outward representation of it. This episode is brought to you by understood.org, the leading nonprofit helping millions with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. Hello everybody, and welcome to this episode of the ADHD Skills Lab, brought to you by understood.org, the leading nonprofit helping millions of people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. Today we're gonna have a really fun episode where we're gonna talk about the DSMs, that's the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. We're gonna talk about ADHD, we're gonna talk about diagnosing, you know, diagnostics around ADHD, but we're gonna do it in a fun alternative way. We're gonna look at a blue dog. Was it every couple of generations a blue dog comes and tells us about ourselves?

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Comes to yeah, guide the new generation.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

And this one's gonna guide us when it comes to ADHD. Potentially. We're gonna talk about Bluey.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Yeah, which I think any ADHD founder with kids is probably familiar with.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

And as always, I'm brought to you by my co-founder, Robbie. You can hear here, and then also our little baby Ember is in the studio with us today. So if you hear any background noise, I mean we are talking about Bluey. I feel like it's appropriate. Some disclaimers. We are in no way saying that we're gonna diagnose Bluey with anything today. That is not what we're doing. We but we didn't want to have a conversation about diagnosing with a real person. We thought a fictional character, particularly one that has so many episodes that make you wonder if they know something we don't situations, was a good fit for a conversation about the DSM.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Yeah, obviously it's gonna be hard to be conclusive. We'd have to talk to Calypso, her teacher. We would need to verify that these criteria were present for six months to a degree that was inconsistent with their developmental level, which again, Bluey is, I think she is six going on seven and then seven across the seasons. So definitely time is passing across the seasons in terms of meeting that criterion.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

And if you don't know who Bluey is, I recommend just like going on YouTube watching a five-minute video because they are literally five minutes, and then you'll have the full context for what we're talking about. It's a it's a small blue Australian blue healer dog cartoon who has a little sister called Bingo and parents, and that's very wholesome children's television. Yeah, very cute, very, very cute. It's made more than one adult parent cry. So the DSM is the thing that they use as a basis for you if you get diagnosed with ADHD, or honestly, if you get diagnosed with any disorders like depression, anxiety, it's the diagnostic statistical manual. It's been updated for ages. Um so it's been around for quite a long time, and it was built essentially with the idea that people realize that disorders of the mind, I guess you could say, had all of these different groups, and they were like, let's try and group them together, and then hopefully one day we'll figure out what they do and why they're there and how to solve them. And so that was the original reasoning for the DSM, and it's expanded since then. It's obviously changed a lot, and medication has come through. Although some people argue that we really never fully figured out what was going on in the way that the original creators of the book intended, which is why sometimes it feels a little bit confusing. And so essentially, this is the this is kind of the book that people will be using when they're diagnosing you. They may use a specific questionnaire, for example, that isn't in the DSM, but the criterion that we're gonna go through is in the DSM, and this is the the the source of ADHD diagnoses at its core.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Yeah, any other questionnaires would sort of be based on this.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Yeah, yeah. And the DSM is always referenced in in good ADHD research about, you know, how did they they used the DSM? They had a DSM qualified, you know, and so you'll have a psychiatrist, for example, who can look at the DSM and like you said, look at the parents, you know, and the teachers and and you know, through time, all that kind of stuff to assess if someone has ADHD. So we're gonna do this, but we're gonna do it for a fictional cartoon character.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Yeah, we're not gonna go too deep on the DSM today because we're planning on doing a history of ADHD in the DSM and how it changed over the various versions or editions.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

There is an episode of Bluey that is very obviously about a child with ADHD, and it's kind of the episode that got us thinking about this concept in general because they kind of started it. Like they made an episode. Well, they made an episode they didn't make an episode about every issue, they but they made an episode about ADHD.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Yeah, which was very sweet.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Yeah, it was lovely, lovely episode. One of the great things about Bluey is how much depth and storytelling and character development it has for the show.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Yeah, the episodes are about very relatable parenting moments, bordering on too high of a standard, makes you feel bad about your own parenting sometimes, but like very relatable.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Okay, so let's go through Jack. So there's an interesting thing that happens in one of the seasons, I guess it's season two, where they have an episode that is entirely from the perspective of another character, which doesn't happen very often.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

I can't tell you off the top of my head if that happens on other episodes at all.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Yeah. So it's it's it's unusual bordering on never happens. And so this is an interesting episode because it doesn't really have Bluey in it. It's it's really about this this Jack Russell called Jack, who is at the same school as Bluey. So he's going to Bluey's school for the first time, and the very first thing that we see when we're introduced to this character is, you know, he can't sit still. He's being told to sit still by his dad.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

He's forgotten his hat.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

He's forgotten his hat. He's distracted by what's up to his his little his little um sibling says, Why can't you just do what you're told? So there's like immediately triggered, triggered by this tiny cartoon character. I was like, it's not fair that he's being told not to not to fit it.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

And why does he have to sit still in the car?

SPEAKER_01 6:21

He doesn't have to sit still. I think we both said that when it was like, why does he have to sit still? I mean, we're the ones who have a trampoline downstairs in the lounge for our kids, so we're clearly not on the you have to sit still path.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

No, but it has caused problems because sitting to eat at the table is is a learned skill.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

So this character that, you know, it's very clear he forgets his hat. He says he doesn't know how to, you know, he doesn't know what's wrong, and he meets another dog called Rusty, and Rusty's like, Oh, well, you're really good at this, which is playing armies, and it's like a very active thing that's gonna, you know I think that's what's so sweet about the episode is that Rusty kind of shows him that he can do all the things that he doesn't think he's good at.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

It's just kind of the environment that makes the difference.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Yeah, it is very sweet. And he has a really great day, and he comes home and he and he tells his mom about it. That's a very classic ADHD episode, very clearly combined presentation, ADHD, the ADHD kid in your class is trying but losing things and forgetting things and all of that kind of stuff. Which then led us to the conversation of okay, well, that's interesting. Are there any episodes of this show that indicate that Bluey might be struggling, not in the same way as Jack, but in like a more of a female presentation?

SPEAKER_00 7:40

I think they're sort of saying it shows up more as ADD. I think that's also partly though it's the hyperactivity almost seems to exhibit verbally, not physically.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Which isn't necessarily related to like female versus male presentation, like ADD is for everybody, but it's more along the lines of I would say it's possible you know, we know that kids who have who are you know female basically, we know that girls get missed, is how I would put it. We know girls get missed, we know they get diagnosed later. So many, so many things show that. So if I think if blue isn't as obvious.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Boys get diagnosed roughly three times the rate of girls.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Yeah, yeah. A lot of it has to do with masking and and trying to be perfect and and you know, like different ways that people are reacting to the environment, basically.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

We'd have to jump into the actual study if we wanted to sort of verify this information.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

But it is a systematic review and a meta-analysis.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

So like males have significantly more severe hyperactivity and impulsivity. Um, but when the clinical diagnostic interviews were used, there was no significant difference in severity. So it's a measurement difference, not just a presentation difference.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

I think the other thing that was interesting as well was that girls were more likely to go undiagnosed or misdiagnosed with anxiety or depression before ADHD was considered.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Yeah, that's really common. Um, and and very frustrating for those of them who have done that, because obviously it's frustrating to find out you've been medicating the wrong diagnosis this whole time.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

We're looking at inattention in particular, which kind of makes sense given the presentation difference between girls and boys. The DSM requires six or more of the following, I think nine symptoms. It's nine total for inattention and another nine for hyperactivity from memory. It has to be to a degree that is inconsistent with their developmental levels. Obviously, if they there are things that you could consider ADHD symptoms at an older age that at a young age would just be their development, their normal development. And it it needs to have a negative impact on their sort of social or occupational, or in the case of children, academic activities.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Yeah. So it needs to be what I always called it was it needs to be pervasive and persistent. It needs to be across time and across different categories of their life.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

I don't think it needs to be across different parts of their life. I think it needs to be across different criteria.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

No, but it also needs to be across different areas of their life.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

It definitely has to have a direct impact on their social or uh it does say social and academic activities. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Yeah. It can't just be at home, it can't just be at work. Several inattentive or help hyperimpulsive symptoms are present in two or more settings, e.g., at home, school, or work with friends or relatives in other activities. And doesn't occur only during another disorder. So which criterion are we going to be talking about today?

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Criterion one, easily distracted by extraneous stimulant you lie. Criterion two does not follow through slash fails to finish tasks.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

We're going to go through those. If you guys like this episode, tell us. We will do a part two. Because we don't know if you guys are going to be like, who the heck is Bluey? What is this? You know that on the ADHD Skills Lab, we are all about systems that work. But what about those systems in our personal lives? When you have ADHD, managing life every day can feel overwhelming, especially if you're a woman managing work, family, and everything else. That's why I want to share a podcast called Sorry I Miss This. Host Kate Osborne dives into how we can find strategies for our closest relationships and daily routines that respect our unique wiring. Whether you're single, partnered, or navigating family life, it's a mastercast in thriving and being understood with an ADHD brain. I've been listening to Sorry I Miss This and their episode on how menopause and hormones can impact ADHD symptoms in women. And I found it really interesting the way they were describing that PMDD, you know, that's something that you will find out might happen once a month and it feels more regular, whereas perimenopause is something that you really, you know, have less control over when it's going to happen, as well as the struggles that you could have around estrogen and dopamine regulation as well. All of this was a really interesting conversation that allows us to adjust our strategies with maybe a bit more precision, but definitely far less self-criticism. To listen to sorry, I missed this. Search for sorry, I missed this in your podcast app. That's sorry, I missed this. So the one that we're going to start with is the idea of inattention. So do you want to read that criterion for us, Robbie?

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Yeah. Is often easily distracted by extraneous stimuli. And for older adolescents and adults, it may include unrelated thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

Right. Interesting. Okay. So this is one of the things. It's not the only, obviously, if you just had one and you didn't have anything else, then we wouldn't be talking about ADHD. But there is an episode of Bluey that really points to this being a struggle. So this is something where, you know, if this is a struggle for you, particularly across different areas, but you know, in general, pervasively, your, you know, parents or people at school might mention that this is a struggle, then it could be one of the signs that you have ADHD. And there is a particular episode of Bluey that is literally just about how Bluey struggles with being distracted by extraneous stimuli. Okay, so this is season one, episode 42. Okay, so right at the beginning, this is crazy. I didn't even know this was in here. They they he points to a sitting dog that's meditating, and I thought that they were gonna say, Oh, this this statue is meditating, but he says he's practicing not getting distracted.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Bluey getting distracted is definitely a theme of multiple episodes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Yeah, but I but I didn't realize that it was the the phrase used was getting distracted. I feel like that's very that's very specific.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Well, the first point on my list of things to talk about is the dragonfly. Obviously, she says that's easy, not getting not getting distracted as easily, sits down to do a meditation practice to like and then gets distracted by distracted by a dragonfly flying past.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

She was distracted by a small, interesting animal slash insect in this episode, which is very classic ADHD. You know, when you're diagnosing somebody with ADHD, one of the things you will do is ask their parents, in some cases, or their teachers, for evidence as well. So you need it not just to be something that is something that the person is experiencing, you want it to be something that the environment, the people in their environment are also experiencing as a struggle or an issue.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Yeah. And so in this case, the family all tell her, wait, we're about to play hide and seek, but you have to promise not to get distracted during this, which indicates so one of the criterion for the DSM is this is a persistent problem over longer than six months. And yeah, so so one, if the psychiatrist asked their parents, they would be able to point to this and say, Yes, we have noticed it. And two, this indicates it's a recurring problem, it's not a one-off thing, it's this is some this is a behavior they've noticed, repeat.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Yeah, she literally says, I don't get distracted playing hide and seek, and they all roll their eyes and say, Yes, you do, like as an entire family. I think they would take yes to the distraction question as a result of that. Can I just say the thing that distracts her is a little character called Chattermax? The item that makes the noise has been hidden, so obviously hidden by the parents by the parents under in the laundry, like under the sink. And yeah, when she pulls it out, she's like, Oh, Chattermax, I thought I'd lost you. And like, I know, and this is what makes Bluey such a great show. I know that this was hidden by the mum or the dad, being like, Please, this is way too distracting for my child. I need to put it away. It's too loud, it's too distracting.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Probably was given to them as a gift and not bought by the parents.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Yeah, and you here you can sort of see her struggling with distraction.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

She's saying, like, oh, I want to well, she picks up the tennis ball at the start and goes, No, don't get distracted. Then she goes and finds this. She still remembers I'm supposed to be playing hide and seek, but she goes, Okay, I could just feed you something quick.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

You know, actually, this is a bit of an indication of a working memory struggle as well, which isn't in the DSM as a criterion, it's more later on of it. Yeah, that's the mechanics.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

But these are the like real life manifestations of the underlying mechanics.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

But you are seeing a little bit of a working memory issue here where she's going, I'll just go feed this bird, and then I'll remember to go back. Like that prospective memory is kind of becoming a problem here. Like the next thing I'll do is I'll remember to find my my family.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

She's aware she's running this risk, but she thinks a small thing surely won't lead to a complete distraction.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Who among us? I'm feeling really connected to Bluey right now.

unknown 16:38

It's quite funny.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

I will say, throughout this entire story, she's running around, and you can see the eyes of the family kind of hiding, and every time she ignores them and forgets that she is needing to find them, they roll their eyes.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah, Bandit rolls his eyes. Uh Bingo, I think, does more of a sort of typical this again.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Both indications that this is a recurring event. This is not the first time this has happened.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

I think it probably has persisted for at least six months.

unknown 17:11

Yeah. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Definitely feels like it, given that they're like, I don't even know if you're allowed to play hide and seek anymore, which I didn't even know was a thing. I feel like I've never heard of people forgetting that they're playing hide and seek. But it is a it's a feature of her age, you know. If you on the other side of does Bluey have ADHD, she is quite young. She is only six. So you'd have to know, like, is this different? And this is the DSM thing, is like, is this abnormal for a six-year-old? But I think so because Bingo I think, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

So her younger sister Bingo makes a good comparison.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Yeah, that's very true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

I think Chili's reaction is the mum.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Chili's the mum.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

The mum's reaction is literal face. Little face palm. I think before that there's almost this like, I think it's like a maternal sort of like, come on, you can do it. This is important.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Like, remember what you were doing.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Yeah, like remember, and then and then she doesn't, and just face farm.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Just like if the DSM is a criteria and we would use it to diagnose Chili, Chili would not have ADHD.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

The DSM actually lists the heritability of ADHD as approximately 74%.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

So usually you know, I've heard it colloquially stated that if your child has ADHD, then they're looking at the parents and being like, which one of you has ADHD?

SPEAKER_00 18:30

And we're probably going to be looking at Bandit, especially given the full episode.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Yeah, there's an episode that really indicates that it's probably Bandit. The dad.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

And I think we've talked about before how often you'll find the sort of ADHD, the classic uh husband-wife pairing of sort of an ADHD partner with someone who's able to add a lot of that structure. They're they're almost the the external structure that helps them function in a way that's it's quite sweet. And obviously that could be interpreted to be like that shouldn't have to be their job. I think I think actually the attraction happens because they like a lot of the quality, they like a lot of the positive sides, and they're a particularly strong match as well because that's like sort of the the way that they complement each other.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

And hopefully at this point you understand, based on what we've even talked about so far, why we chose to do an episode about a blue dog and ADHD. You know, as the episode goes on and the Chattermax bird gets more distracting and more loud and annoying, it kind of makes me wonder if in this world we're assuming this episode is about distraction, and you know, I think we can say that it's safety is about distraction if not ADHD. We could say that Chattermax is a little bit of a uh sort of stand-in for the internal experience of being in Bluey's brain. Which makes sense because one of the issues with inattentive ADHD is a lot of it is very internal. It's hard to shoot.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

So you're saying that the her internal thoughts are very loud and hard to ignore.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Yeah, and and distracting, basically.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

So this criterion explicitly mentions unrelated thoughts for older adolescents and adults. Seeing a dragonfly is still seeing something, and then you have a thought about you, you you know, you're still thinking about the thing you're looking at, and that becomes that's like a very loud signal that sort of pulls you away from whatever you were doing.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Well, I think that's why this is interesting, is that as the episode goes on, uh Bluey becomes more and more frustrated with Chattermax the toy, because Chattermax the toy is distracting her, and I feel like it becomes almost like a representation of the internal experience of being in Bluey's head. Because and now we sort of see an outward representation of it. In the earlier part of the episode, we sort of saw more of the internal representation, which was getting distracted and and struggling to remember things, and now later on we see the toy as kind of an outward representation of her inner distraction.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

I don't know if I'd draw all of that conclusion.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

I I think that's come on, have you never written in English yet?

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Yeah, I really school English, but I kind of just think she's getting frustrated because it is so distracting. Like if we go to the pub and there's a TV in the background, I really struggle to pay attention to the person in front of me because my eyes get can keep getting pulled up to the TV. But I it's frustrating to me because I'm I don't want to. I don't whatever's on the it's normally like a sports game that I'm not watching on the TV. It's completely uninteresting to me. And now I'm missing conversation that I'm actually interested in because of like this visual stimuli.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Or maybe it's a good representation of what goes on in your brain.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Yeah, okay. Like okay, but I think it's we don't have to get into a metaphor. It's like it's just she's realizing this toy's a constant unwanted distraction because it sits off sort of randomly.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Yeah, which by the way is incredibly relatable to any parent who's with or without an ADHD child who has very loud, distracting toys in the house.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

Yeah, I think in this case. It's distracting her from what she's trying to do, which is play tea party. You know, it's interrupting the the new thing, the new game that she started playing, which and she's completely forgotten about hide and seek.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Should we jump into the second episode? I feel like we've kind of really covered this episode in terms of the distraction piece. Let's go into the next one.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

To summarize the rest of the episode, the healers are all still hiding, they've got their phones out. They're sort of, I think, I think Chili's cleaning the shower at this point. Yeah. Um, still not being noticed when Bluey comes into the bathroom for the second time. Bandit's in the closet on his phone, and I can't remember. I think Bingo's still just in the basket of toys, like waiting. And eventually it's not until she goes into the garden, sees the garden gnome again, and remembers to do sort of a brief meditation pause and sort of play through how the day started and what she was doing.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Which maybe feels the most unrealistic to me, because once it's gone, it's gone.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

Well, no, that's not true. Like, so think about how we catch thoughts. So we'll very commonly be having a conversation, get distracted by a different thread of the conversation, and kind of go, hang on, what were we just talking about? We really want to talk about that. And it's the exercise of stopping and going back and going with this and then this and then this and then this. This is what we're talking about. And then we can continue on that thread.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

But I but I would argue that and to sort of call back to a previous um episode of this podcast, unless she had properly encoded that she was doing hide and seek, it doesn't matter if she tries to remember it.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Okay. I'm not denying that sometimes we just lose threads of the conversation completely and we have to just go, I think that was important. I think I was enjoying that conversation, but I don't think we're getting it back.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

It's a really annoying part of being ADHD, especially when you have an ADHD partner and you're literally being like, that was a great, you know, remember that time when we came up with a solution to a business problem and then we just lost it? Like that happened so often.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

I think the day started with her lying on her dad, asking what the gnome was for.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Lying against her dad.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Asking what the gnome was doing. So it's not crazy that that would be the encoded memory that actually stuck, that helps her get back to what she was doing.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Yeah. Okay. So let's say that the hide and seek was encoded.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

I think I think it's a reasonable, it's a reasonable sort of yeah, replay until you get to the point where you lost, lost the thread. And she suddenly remembers she was playing hide and seek. She just sort of finds finds them all immediately. So okay, and I think we're just going to touch on why is this strong evidence, preemptive promise before the game starts, signals prior history. We've sort of covered that, and all of the family's eye rolling confirms it. The distraction is total, it's not a brief lapse, complete departure from the original task for an extended period. She's playing a different game now. I think we could just say this is obviously an example of at the home, and it is it clearly is having an impact because it's it's it's becoming part of how she's thought of by her sibling and and family.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

So the second criterion is not following through or failing to finish tasks. So this is DSM criterion says often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace, starts tasks but quickly loses focus and is easily sidetracked. Now, this feels similar to the other other criterion, but I guess they sort of go together. Like if you get distracted all the time but you never fail to finish a task, then I guess that that does happen.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

I think there's definitely a lot of overlap. They're they're all in the same class of inattention. But this is yeah, this is somewhat different. The the evidence that we're going to look at, I think we do touch on hide and seek again for this. Hide and seek definitely does double work here.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Because she fails to follow through the hide and seek instruction.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Yes, yeah. This criterion is more in terms of like schoolwork, chores, duties, but still I think starts a task, starts a game, and quickly loses focus and is easily sidetracked. It's still a strong indication of that.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Is there any other indications that Bluey struggles to follow through and finish tasks?

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Yeah, so I think we've got Stumpfest and Promises.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Which one is promises?

SPEAKER_00 25:56

We can look it up and watch it. It's it's to do with Blueie making promises to Bingo and then repeatedly kind of breaking them, but not because it's not malicious, it's she's just not following through. And that's kind of the yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Yeah, because I'm not sure Stumpfest is as good as an of an example for this one, to be honest. Because I feel like that's something all the kids sort of like ignore. It's just kids ignoring instructions because they want to keep playing a game.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Yeah, well I think this is why part this is part of the reason these types of things get so contentious, is with fictional characters, you're looking at these like brief little glimpses from episodes, and which is why this is not diagnostic.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

This is more a fun way to discuss the criterion of ADHD.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

A fun entry into the DSM before we do a proper deep dive of through the history of the.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

We want to want to give you guys a a sense of what it is and also an uh recommendation to watch Bluey.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

And I I think look, I think that's an interesting discussion that we should just have about Stumpfest.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Well, let's say what Stumpfest is, like what the episode is first.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

So basically it's an episode about their uh The dads are digging up a stump and Bluey and her friends want to use it as like a nail salon.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Yeah, they want to like pretend the stump is part of their play and they do want to do a nail salon. The dad negotiates to say, okay, you can do it for I think a limited amount of time.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

But we are gonna have to pull it up.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

We're gonna have to we're gonna have to dig it up. And then when they come to dig it up, the kids are like, no, and they sort of go back on the idea that they ever negotiated this at all.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Yeah, I think the the reason this could apply to this criterion is because she's genuinely outraged. Like it's not that she It's that she didn't really absorb that condition. So she like agreed to it, but she didn't follow through on it. She didn't fully she didn't fully absorb that condition, and so they have to engage in further negotiation, and then even at the end of that, she's still not happy about it. I mean, I think the alternative framing would be it's she's just this is actually just normal for her age, and she just doesn't want to follow through on the other half of the agreements.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Yeah, I think that's the case. And also the fact that Bluey's friends are equally willing to be like, no, forget what we agreed, you know, we're gonna we're gonna fight you to try and take our stump back. Which, by the way, for the for the there's a little bit of business side in it, is my favorite uh quote of all Bluey, which is just like they're just trying to run a small business, leave him alone to to Bluey's former.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

The mums have been drinking.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

I would say that if I was using the DSM to diagnose Bluey based on this particular episode, I would not I would not find that sufficiently strong evidence compared to the Chattermax distraction episode. I think that's more evidence, much clearer example, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Promises, episode four. Thinking she has time to play to do a puzzle right before her dad's gonna take her out, kind of a time blindness indicator. Then obviously, you could do this with footage of normal children of neurotypical children, and you could probably do the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

You could sort of um I think there's definitely why we're doing this with a fictional character, guys, just a constant reminder.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

I think there's also like you know, because there's a whole conversation around over-diagnosis of ADHD and sort of medicalizing, yeah, that is true, medicalize like over medicalizing normal kid behavior. And I think obviously you run the risk of doing that if you don't sort of pause and kind of go, okay, but is this over and above well that's the DSM idea, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Is it above and beyond the norm? Like that's what we're always looking for the norm for their age, the norm for their situation, like all of those kinds of things, but not the norm for their family because it runs you know, ADHD is highly genetic.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

What you're talking about, like when a whole family just goes like, no, this is normal. We're pretty sure this is normal, right? So they were literally leaving that minute, and she's like, I've got time for a puzzle. I think that I think that maybe that is an example of time blindness, even in in six-year-olds, yeah. Well, I think the idea is that like bingo isn't doing this, like Bluey is.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Yeah, and I think that's the thing, is like we're always seeing and there are episodes of stunts that bingo struggles with that you see, they're just not in the DSM for ADHD.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

They're not, yeah, they're not in attention, distractability related things. They're sort of you know, emotional and other and so this is yeah, I guess it's immediately going into the bandit sort of also struggling with time.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Yeah, yeah. Because the next thing that happens is they're going to the trampoline park, which was the reason that he Well, this episode is about Bingo basically taking out a puzzle and promising to clean up the puzzle when she gets home. Because she takes it out immediately before she's about to go out. Her mum's like, Why did you do that? You're about to go to the trampoline park with your dad. She says, Well, one, I have plenty of time to do it before, which isn't true. She immediately leaves. And then the other one, which is where we think maybe time blindness is an issue, but it's also all about time blindness.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

I think it finishes yeah, I think it finishes it finishes at bedtime and they're upset. They're upset because I think Bango's upset at Bluey, and then Bluey says, Well, dad didn't keep his promise either.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

I think that when you look at this episode, the not following through side, and obviously we've got the not following through stuff for the distraction episode. The not following through is about the panda puzzle at the beginning. Like she does a panda puzzle, she says she'll tidy it up when she gets home, which again is prospective memory, and she fails to remember to tidy it up. I don't think she didn't do it on purpose, I think she genuinely failed to remember and just went to bed.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

Yeah, so often does not follow through instructions, fails to finish chores. I think it is a clear example of that. I think it's also, I think if we're talking about underlying mechanics, kind of like clearly time blindness, there was no way you shouldn't have time to do that relate. And I think you could argue maybe that Bandit is sort of having a similar thing of thinking he can do too many things in one day. Although I it does also sort of show that the kids are really enjoying the trampoline park and he sort of joins in and then is kind of a bit feels like it's not quite fair that they can't go to the library when it's shut now.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

What is the third criterion, Robbie?

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly. Mine seems elsewhere, even in the absence of any obvious distraction, which yeah, again, I really relate to.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

It's almost like you might have ADHD. This episode is basically about Bingo and Bluey. So Bluey's little sister, and how they're different. Yeah, they they pretend to be each other, and their parents kind of basically upset Bluey by saying how good is double bingo's. And then quite frankly, do not back down on that, which is a bit of a big thing.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

But serious, yeah. Bandit's like, but seriously, though, and Chili agrees.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Yeah, so the complexity of raising an ADHD child is referenced in there, which I think is interesting. Well, the complexity of raising a child like Bluey, does Bluey have ADHD? We do not know. We are just speculating.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

Yeah, and I actually wouldn't be surprised if we get to the end of this and we go inconclusive. I think there's really strong signs that she's highly distractable and a bunch of other things. And obviously, we'll have to go through all six of the criteria and maybe even do a deeper dive into all three seasons. But it wouldn't be surprising if only looked at through the window of seven-minute episodes. It's not something that you could sort of conclusively say she ticks these criteria definitely.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

But in this episode, essentially what happens is one of when she's introducing her sister Bingo to being her, to being Bluey, one of the things she specifically talks about is the fact that she doesn't really listen.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

And she's very aware of the fact as well.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

What did she say in that piece you've got?

SPEAKER_00 33:46

I think I ask a lot of questions, but I don't really wait for the answer.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Yeah. And sort of her asking her mum a question and then walking away halfway through the question.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

As an example of it.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Which is very classic, classic AD issue.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

Yeah, never listens to the answer in full. She also just by the by, it doesn't relate to this criterion necessarily, but sort of just talk all the time. It doesn't even need to make sense.

unknown 34:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Yeah. I don't know if that's AD, it's more of the H in the ADHD.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

I'd be curious to speculate on if that isn't explicitly a hyperactivity and impulsivity thing. I would say it pretty clearly is impulsivity, but maybe like a female expression.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Or just an expression. I wouldn't necessarily say that it's a specific gendered expression. I think it's it it's just an expression.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

I think it's understood that girls are more verbally advanced and I think even more socially advanced. I don't think that's just stereotypes or gender norms. I think that's I think you're right.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

I just don't know if this is an argument. I don't know if this piece from the Bluey episode is a real like indication of that advancedness. To kind of bring it all together, you know, with what we've talked about today. We've kind of gone through like the premise of this podcast episode was is Bluey could we make a case for the idea that Bluey has ADHD using the DSM?

SPEAKER_00 35:04

This is where the Stump Fest episode does stand up, by the way. So often doesn't seem to listen to even when spoken directly. And again, I think no, I think this is a good that is a good example of it because she doesn't hear the condition of being allowed to play on the stumps. She's genuinely surprised. She's not like it's not like she heard it and now she's changed her mind. It's like she's genuinely surprised that they are now coming for her stump that she's doing nail salon on.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

She's just trying to run a small business.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

It's because she hasn't listened to even when spoken directly, even when he stops and says, Seriously though, I know you're gonna not listen to this, I need you to listen to this bit kind of thing. She still doesn't like encode that second part, that part that she doesn't want. She's just encoding the first part, which is I get to do the thing I want.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

So in the dance mode episode, bingo explicitly tells Blueie that she needs to have the last go of picking who gets to dance next. And she hears it, she acknowledges it, and then immediately she sees an opportunity for it to be a good dance mode opportunity, and she just does it. And so it's sort of another example of that, like agreeing to something, but not really and I think again you could have an argument about whether or not it is not listening when spoken to, or not wanting to give up that opportunity, yeah, or just being so excited about the opportunity and like not valuing that enough and then learning that lesson.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

But and I guess at the end of the day, that's the complexity of using the DSM. That's why you know the criteria is used by a professional and not by us.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Yeah, and it takes a lot more into consideration.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So to summarize, we've kind of gone through uh, you know, about three different episodes of Bluey, and we've we've found that there is some evidence for some of the criteria. It was distractability, doesn't seem to listen when spoken to directly, and doesn't seem to follow through on tasks.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Reluctant to engage in often easily distracted by external stimuli, uh, often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish chores, schoolwork, etc. And often does not seem to listen even when spoken to directly. So yeah, what you say.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

And I think you could you could make an argument, I think definitely for distractability. Definitely, this is a highly distractable child compared to her sister, you know, not just in general.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

And probably compared to the other without doing a deep dive, compared to her friends as well. Like she's unusually distractable.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

That criteria. The other ones, I would say it's kind of marginal. I you know, there's some evidence, but there's nothing.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

We'd have to go hunting for more evidence.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Yeah. This is a great way for us to bring a bit of a sense of what it is like to be diagnosed with ADHD, what the DSM asks for, what it what's the process of looking at the videos or looking at the, you know, experiences of their life and being like, okay, is this happening? Is this happening across time? Is like. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the ADHD Skills Lab. If you liked it, leave us a five star review. It helps other people learn more about us. And thank you so much to our wonderful team for making us sound good, look good. We couldn't do it without you.