The Organising System That Actually Works for ADHD (Cas Aarssen)

You don't need another productivity hack. You need systems that still work when your brain doesn't.

Cas Aarssen built the Clutterbug Method, hosted HGTV's Hot Mess House, and grew a global brand by stopping the fight against her ADHD and designing her home and business around how she naturally works.

In this conversation, she shares the hard lessons that came from burnout, why traditional organizing advice kept failing her, and how building systems around real habits instead of ideal ones changed everything. From running a team without endless SOPs to creating spaces that stay functional even on hard days, Cas explains what it actually takes to build systems that last.

If you've ever felt like you're constantly rebuilding your life from scratch, this episode offers a more sustainable way forward.

What We Cover

• Why burnout pushed her to rethink the way she worked
• Building systems around your actual habits instead of your ideal self
• The Clutterbug Method and why one organizing style doesn't fit everyone
• Delegating through ownership instead of endless SOPs
• Creating a home and business that work with an ADHD brain, not against it

Connect With Cas Aarssen

https://clutterbug.me/what-clutterbug-are-you-test

If you’re an entrepreneur with ADHD who’s tired of being asked “Why don’t you just hire/make a system/delegate?”  We’ve gotchu! 

1. Click here for a free copy of my 5-year-tested Focus Filter. Instant relief for work-related overwhelm.
2. Find out what’s holding you back. I’ll personally build you a simple plan to fix it. Click here to grab one.
3. Join my Focused Balanced Growth Program. If you’re tired of getting blank looks in masterminds full of neurotypical advice, this is for you. Weekly Monday Motivation sessions, plus content you can binge or dip into for strategies specific to you. Apply here.
4. Your Business Operations Built for Your ADHD Brain. Feel like you can never really delegate because you can’t explain how to do it? Struggling to hire someone who feels like a natural fit for your business? Let us handle it for you. We specialize in using our years of ADHD research and practical support to act as your fractional COO, handling the back-end operations in a way that feels light and keeps you focused. Learn more here.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I was earning more than I was from my daycare off YouTube. Like I was doing okay. I was starting to get bored of it. Like I was starting to like, yeah, I I know it's fun and it is. I love organizing, but also maybe I wanna do something else. No cast, focus. Stay focused. This is a great thing, and you love it, and you get to do it from home while being a mom. I wasn't 100% in. And so I hired a student for three days a week to come to my house and literally just body double. Like she came to my house and then I'm like, well, she's here, I gotta work because, you know, she's expecting to work, so I gotta do something too. And then I showed up. And I showed up with like, you know, excitement and passion because I had someone beside me to do it with me. And I quadrupled my income within three months.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Hello everybody, and welcome to today's episode of the ADHD Skills Lab. Today I am super excited to be joined by Cass Arson, the best-selling author, YouTuber, and host of HGTV's hit show, Hot Mess House. Cass is the creator of the clutterbug method. I'm sure you guys have seen her all over the internet, a life-changing system that has helped people identify their unique organizing personality so that they can build customized systems that actually work the way their brains work. She first gained popularity on YouTube, where her relatable and practical approaches to decluttering and organizing resonated with millions of people. And she is now the host of the Clutterbug podcast and a professional organizer by trade. Cass is on a mission to help people create a home they love, no matter their budget or lifestyle or you know how ladybug they are. And uh, when she is not organizing, you'll likely find her spending time with her family and playing Fortnite. Before we get started, we have a couple of spots left for business owners who are in the service business, struggle with ADHD symptoms, make over 100k, and know that if they were able to have an operational layer built for them, they would get so much more done and be much more effective in the business, as well as obviously growing better revenue, spending more time with family. If that's you, go ahead, click the link down below to book a free business build-out that you can do with me and we can see if you're a good fit for our program. Welcome to the show, Cass. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yeah, yeah, it's wonderful to have you here. I must say, Stardew Valley is my is my gaming of choice. So, but definitely Fortnite as well. So tell me a little bit. I want to know. I guess I was I was listening to you talk a little bit about your upbringing and where you came from and about your ADHD experience. Obviously, we talk about ADHD here. And I was really curious, you know, now that you've built this business, is there anything that looking back, obviously in your childhood, you know, there were experiences that you had that, you know, you felt like ADHD, knowledge of ADHD would have been helpful. Did you have that with growing a business as well?

SPEAKER_02 2:54

I hate to say, like, I wish I could go back in time and do things differently because things worked out so well that I would be like, maybe it was all for a reason and led me down this path. But I definitely feel like I do l learn everything the hard way. So everything came with a hard lesson. And perhaps if I had tools in my toolbox, I would have been able to skip some of those harder lessons, I think.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Definitely. And it's interesting. I was listening to you talk about when you were growing up, you felt like adults were like, if you work really hard, you'll get to work a job. And you were like, no, thank you. And you went and lived in the woods. I went and lived in a commune. So I related to that a lot. It wasn't quite the woods, but it was close. And there was this sense of the system that you had written built to focus on just not looking that much fun.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

No, I mean, you know, you hear kids say, I can't wait to be a grown-up. And I was like, that's my worst nightmare. The last thing I ever wanted to be is an adult. Because all of the adults in my life that I saw around me were working, like they would get up and they would go to their job that they didn't like. And they all seemed like the most boring jobs on the face of the earth. And then they would come home tired and grumpy and then have to do laundry and cook and clean and do yard work. And I was like, why would anyone want this life? This I could barely get through school, you know? And and why would I want that times a million as a grown-up? Like, no, thank you. Absolutely freaking not. And so I absolutely rebelled and I left home at 15 and I was homeless. And and that came with a whole host of other issues, which led to like addiction and crime, and because you gotta eat at the end of the day, living's expensive. I did not take that into account. So I I realized living outside of the box, I always say like society has this box and I just don't, I don't want to fit, and I didn't fit. But living outside of the box was like even harder. So I climbed back in, uh, but eventually I found this like really beautiful compromise. And I found it through a lot of epic failures. But I I'm just so lucky to still have freedom, but also structure and boundaries. And I think that from for me is really that secret sauce.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Yeah, yeah. And I I really appreciated you talking about that. It was a bit emotional, actually. I was listening to your episode with ADHD for a badass woman. And and it was, it was, it was really true finding that compromise. I think a lot of people who are entrepreneurs really relate to that idea because a lot of times we don't necessarily choose it just because we enjoy it, but also because it's the compromise that allows us to do more of what we want. For context, I didn't, I wasn't 15, I was 23, but I also left home and never went back. So, you know, it's and had to figure it out from there and you know, had a few more resources, but it was definitely an interesting, an interesting reality to have to figure things out and not knowing the whole time that other just seeing that other people are struggling less with this idea, and everyone else is like, Yeah, you get a job. I don't know what you're doing. Like, what is happening?

SPEAKER_02 6:27

I mean, I got a lot of jobs. I just got fired from all those jobs, and then I became basically unemployable. So, with like a felony criminal record, I can't even work a cash register, you know. So I I was really my hands were really tied, and I'm like, well, what like what are my options here? And why is it so hard to do these things that for everyone else seemed so easy? For me, it was like every day was such a struggle. And I think it's because someone described it to me. I actually went to this neurodiversion event and a keynote speaker there said that there are people who are it's kind of biology. There's people who are like hunters, they're a little wild and they're supposed to be like looking for all over the place because they're gonna like ah attack a, I don't know, uh, a deer or something, and like, you know, and then there's farmers who are methodical and they need to plant seeds and they want to distance them, measure them the distance apart. And we need both of those in society, but we are currently living in a society built for farmers by farmers. And so that wild hunter, which I I've always felt like a little wild, there's not really sometimes place for a place for us.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Yeah, yeah. Although maybe a bit more now. I feel like there is an interesting, interesting shift. But let's go back to your your business start, because you know, you were working from home and you were raising kids. I have three little children under four, so I get it. And they're, you know, you were in this position where you wanted to help people organize. So when was the first time? Describe to me the first time somebody gave you money for your services. Because I think that's a really important moment when you're an entrepreneur.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

Yeah, it actually started before the organizing. I was on maternity leave here in Canada. We had a year with my second daughter and my husband, we we didn't have a lot of money. And he was like, You're gonna have to go back to work. And I'm like, listen, I just want to stay home and be a stay-at-home mom. And he was like, Well, you have like four months left to earn the same amount of money from home as you would if you went back to work. And so I became a clown on weekends, seriously, a birthday clown, taught myself face painting the whole thing. Guess what? That didn't work out. So then I made tutus and hair bows and was like, I'm gonna be a cra that didn't work out. And then, like, right at the very end of I have to go back to work, I was like, I'm just gonna start a home daycare. And I immediately printed flyers that day, went and posted them everywhere. And within three days, I had a whole host of children who parents needed care, and I was running a daycare just by the skin of my teeth, with exactly the number of children needed to replace my income. And and during this journey is when my disorganization was really amplified because now I had a home. Sometimes I had up to nine children, including babies and toddlers, in a tiny home, and it was like Toys or Us through up everywhere. So I discovered a different way to organize that would really work for my brain. I thought I was a genius. So on evenings and weekends, I was so excited about this. I was like helping friends and family. And my best friend Jess, I had done her house for her, and then her neighbor was so impressed by this like different approach to organization. She was like, I'll hire you. So that was my first time getting paid to organize, but it wasn't my first time with this entrepreneurial spirit of like, I gotta make cash. I don't know what else to do. I'm gonna just throw all the spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Yeah, definitely. And I know even before that, you mentioned some of the things that you got, you know, in trouble for as a young person involved, kind of various entrepreneurial pursuits. And I think that that is surprisingly common. I have heard that that before. It's like you're trying to figure out what, you know, there's an interesting thing happening now where we're realizing more and more that having ADHD and and having an entrepreneurial spirit are often very linked. Not always, but quite often. And there is this sense of trying to make something happen, trying to figure out how to how to live outside the lines in a way that feels good for your brain.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Like, how can I make money without sitting in a cubicle all day? You know, I can't, I can't sit still all day. How can I make money without having to do some boring, horrible stuff and have a boss? Because I'm just not good at that. I'm not good at that.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Yeah. Oh, bliss. I went to one of my parents, had me at where they worked when I was a kid, and they were like, This is my work. And I remember being little and being like, I don't want to do this. Be like, sorry. So you ran a daycare by the skin of your teeth. Talk to me, I need to know, about hyperfocus because I am sensing some real hardcore. When you said I printed the flies the same day, I understand that in my soul.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

Yeah. Hyper focus and I are best friends and also mortal enemies. Right now, my hyperfocus is a video game that I can't put down and I was up till four in the morning playing, and it is now my entire personality and all I want to do. But it also comes in handy for things like anytime I want to do something new, especially in my business, I have this like passion for it where it's all-encompassing in that moment, just enough to get it done good enough, and then I move on to something new. And I think that's actually the secret to my success, is because I am every day throwing so much spaghetti on the wall, but some of it sticks.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Mm-hmm. Yeah, 100%. And and then I want to talk about your team because when you're an entrepreneur and you are that person who's managed to make something happen. So you're working, you know, at the daycare and then you start organizing and people are paying you. I know at some point you l you stopped having clients and you started working on YouTube. Tell me, when did you hire your first team member?

SPEAKER_02 12:37

I actually hired my first team member in 2017. And the reason is I read the book The Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin. So I don't know if you've if you've read that book, but I was I was actually doing okay, and I was I was earning more than I was from my daycare off YouTube, which is a whole other story when we talk about failure. If we talk about failure, I'll tell you that story. It was crazy pants. We have a question at the end. Yeah, I was doing okay. Like I was doing okay, but I was a half I was starting to get bored of it. Like I was starting to like, yeah, it I know it's fun and it is. I love organizing, but also maybe I want to do something else. No cast, focus, stay focused. This is a great thing, and you love it, and you get to do it from home while being a mom, and it's earning you great money. But I wasn't a hundred percent in. And I read the book, The Four Tendencies, which is here because I'm obsessed, and it said that I was an obliger, which means I meet outer expectations, not always inner. And so I hired a student for three days a week to come to my house and literally just body double. Like she came to my house, and then I'm like, Well, she's here, I gotta work because you know, she's expecting to work, so I gotta do something too. And then I showed up, and I showed up with like, you know, excitement and passion because I had someone beside me to do it with me. And I quadrupled my income within three months of hiring a student just to be in the room with me as an assistant, kind of like helping me set up the camera and doing like it wasn't she didn't really know what she was doing either, but it was having that extra body, and and that was such a huge light bulb moment for me that yeah, I need outer accountability because not a boss, but someone to like show up for. And I think YouTube is another person that I show up for, my my community online. I feel like, you know, I'm cat they're counting on me, and I'm counting on them.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Yeah, I love that. And I think that's really the nice thing about YouTube. And we're very new to YouTube, but we've had a podcast now for about three years, and it's just a nice space. I feel like sometimes social media can be very algorithmy where you show up and everyone's like, Oh, we can't see you, and you're like, no. But on like these other spaces, more often, like the people that you're expecting to be there will be there, and there is that sense of building a relationship.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Yeah, it's been really positive for me. And now I have a team, there's five of us here. I will say I I take the approach like I want to be able to do everything in my business, and there's nothing in my business that I don't know how to do and couldn't do. So if someone left, I'm like, I got this, totally a hundred percent. But also I've realized there are other things that I want to start hyper focusing on, but I don't want to put down this great thing that I've built. And so having a team means I can walk away and do other like super cool things. And this thing is gonna keep chuggling along because there's other people making sure it does. And when I come back to it and I'm like, oh yeah, look at this. Oh, fun again. It's right there waiting for me. So that that's really for me is is the blessing of a team. But it's also it's tough being a manager because I just don't want to be.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

I feel like a lot of people I was listening to. There's a guy on on YouTube who is very into minimalism. I think he's been around, he's been around for a very long time. And he talked about he had a team and then he let them all go. And he moved to Australia, and he was just like, that's it, I'm out. I can't do the YouTube thing in the traditional team way. And then there's others like Ali Abdal who's like have hired one person and have have their whole team funneled through that person, essentially. And that seems to be how they've done it, at least the last time they spoke about it. And so I'm curious for you. This is gonna be so inside baseball, but trust me, this is this is what we talk about. Can you tell me like who is on your team? So you have a small team, what are their what are their roles?

SPEAKER_02 16:35

So I have a videographer, and um, she this is the original role that I hired, the student long ago. I was filming myself on a tripod, and then literally now there's still someone standing beside the tripod pressing record. Now, is that necessary? No, but it's necessary for me.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Oh, I get it. I get it. I got my husband to be my co-host on the podcast because I needed someone.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Like I could 100% do that job by myself. It helps me with the body doubling, and then she edits the videos for me, which is great. And then I have someone who helps with social media, so replies to comments, even though I don't know if this is 100% necessary. I also think like, well, it's nice and I don't feel then obligated to do it, and then creates like short form and social media posts like that, which is great. And my husband does, he kind of works part-time, but um, he does like any kind of tech issues. So if the website crashes or something like that, he also does support emails because I do have some online courses, and if people are having issues logging in, he does all that kind of IT support and he pays all the bills and does the accounting. Thank gosh, because I'm really bad with money. And then recently I actually hired my producer that I had from HGTV to help with some of the brain load because I've done, I'm doing all these other things outside of my business right now, that the idea generation, the script development, the the thinking aspect of it, I was like, uh, that's a load. So I've actually hired her to kind of be a bit of my brain, which is lovely. So she produces the podcast, she comes up with video ideas. I don't always love all the video ideas, but it's still wonderful to have to not be solely in charge of thinking and have someone else kind of doing that. And and I do think my team is perhaps a little heavy. I think I have more people than are necessary. And I will say this too, which going from just me to two, I like quadrupled my income. Adding all these other team members did not translate to more money. It didn't. I'm not earning any more revenue, but what I'm earning is more peace and I'm earning more time. That part, I think, for me in this where I am in this season of life is absolutely worth it.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Yeah. And also, I think you're earning less burnout. You know, there's two we need cash flow and we need burnout. And sometimes we've got the cash flow, but we need the second one.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

And I've completely like immediately filled my extra time with a bunch of other ridiculous crap. But I feel I'm happier. I'm happier because I don't feel chained anymore to my business, right? I have freedom to come and go, to come in and out and know that it's gonna keep going.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Yeah, I think that's so important. I'm really curious. You don't, you didn't mention like an assistant or an executive assistant, anyone who's managing your emails or your calendar or anything like that.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

Yeah, no, so I do that and um I really try to hide my email from the world as much as possible.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

So Yeah, we didn't find it. So if you're wondering.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Good luck finding it. Yeah, no, I hide that thing. Yeah, if somebody can find me, then good for them. I'll get that email. But otherwise, there's really no way of contacting me, and I'm I'm perfectly okay with that.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Yeah, interesting. What are the other things? What are the other things? I don't want to get, but you mentioned you're doing other things outside of what you know, your your clutter bug is. So, what is that other stuff?

SPEAKER_02 20:04

Yeah, I became a firefighter two years ago. So loving that, that's like my biggest big excitement thing right now that takes a lot of time. I had to go to school and I am on call 24-7. So my pager goes off all throughout the day and all throughout the night at any time. So I I just like oh, it's just I love it so much. I'm writing a book. So I just got a book deal with Harper Collins, which is very exciting. So I'm I'm doing that. I became a beekeeper, which is super fun, and I've started a charity, and I'm also doing one day a week with my husband. We help at the soup kitchen. So I'm able to do so much more outside, I guess, of just the business in my personal life. Plus, I have three kids and we love to travel, but definitely I would say like the firefighting is at least 20 hours a week. So it's a big chunk of my time.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. And and we're honestly doing an interesting thing because when I work with business owners, we get they get to a point in revenue where I'm like, right, okay, now you need to go and figure out how to find dopamine outside of your business because otherwise you're going to just like start fires in your business. And I think it's hilarious that you went and became a firefighter.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

It is exactly it. There's no top of the mountain. And so I kept thinking, like, when I have this success or when I earn this much money, or when I do like this next big thing, then, but then there was just something immediately l after. And I started to tire of it. Even though I love it so much and I'm just so proud of it, and I don't want to let it go, I didn't want it to be my hyper focus all day. I couldn't keep it my hyper focus all day, every day. It started to feel like a nine to five chore that I was chained to. And as soon as I start feeling like that, I want to blow it all up and set it on fire.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Yeah. And and you doing the exact this is the tradic. Of a successful business owner. Like people think, I mean, this will selling it, but you know, this is this is the thing about unsaleable businesses. It's like it's not an option. So tell me then about delegating, because you must have nail delegating to walk me through that process.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

I'm I'm not actually great at delegating. I think, I think what I try to do is the absolute bare minimum to still be done. I call it do it shitty. So, how can I do the thing to done as shitty as possible in every aspect, but it's still be done? And so I try not to be a super perfectionist, but I've also been practicing that it feels fast and easy. So we film one video a week, I do one podcast a week, I'll make a thumbnail, I still do the description, and that's about all I gotta really. I I mean I do course development, but that's kind of all I have to do. So all of the posting and the scheduling of the content and the dealing with the students and doing the support emails, all of that, I suppose I have delegated. And then even idea generation in the future. Yeah, I mean, Heidi takes care of that. And then scheduling when things are gonna come out, also I hate that crap. So I guess I have delegating. I just don't say you're doing this. I'm just like, I'm doing that.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Anyone who's a firefighter 20 hours a week has delegated a ton. Yeah, no, 100%. So, so okay, again, inside baseball, but this is what we do. Do you guys have an SOP doc? Do you have a Google Drive? Like, do you have systems? Is it in people's heads? Do you know? We don't really have systems.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

You know what's so great? Every time I hire someone new, they're like, wow, for an organizing expert, you're really unorganized. And I just take this approach. I'm like, okay, well, you're in charge too. Like, I know I'm the boss, but you're the boss of Instagram and Facebook. You're the boss of video development, you're the boss of YouTube, you're the boss. So I have my employees and I'm like, this is yours. Own it, make it your own. Tell me what you need from me, and I'll deliver for you. So I'll literally, they'll tell me, I need you to film this. And I'm like, okay, put it on my calendar. You pick the day. You can see my calendar. You pick when you need me to do that for you. And I think that maybe is a different approach that some people don't love. But it's helpful for me because it takes the cognitive load off my brain.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

No, I think it's really true. I I was talking to Taki Moore, who's a business coach, and a couple of other people about this. And there is a level, I think people think about creator-led businesses as being unsellable because they're not like a SaaS company and you can just, you know, sell a business. But there is a level where you haven't sold it, but you are the talent, essentially. And so you have a call time and you have all of that kind of stuff, but you're not, you don't do anything else. And in some ways, that is probably the closest you can get as a as an entrepreneur in the creative business to, you know, that that sort of retirement space.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

Yeah. And I had to do it all before. So I I was the one, I coded my own website and I had to do all the things. But then once it's done and set up, I'm really about like that passive thing that you can do once and then walk away. And so I've really tried to build my business where it's like the bare minimum of things I actually have to do in a week. And I think about this constantly. Like, how, if I'm gonna do something, how can I make sure I don't have to maintain it and it'll keep running in the background? And that is always kind of the lens that I frame things through. And I I am thinking, of course, about my exit strategy, and I have one, so we can sell clutterbug, and it is something that is actually sellable. Yep. And that's we're developing that right now, and that should be launched in January of next year, which is a licensing program. So people will actually be calling themselves, not quite franchising, but very similar. So professional organizers can call themselves clutterbug, they can use all of my marketing materials, they can use the quiz, they can be clutterbug, they can teach the four methods, and they'll pay me a small fee. They'll be featured on my website so people can because people are every day. Can I hire you? Can I hire you? And I'm like, actually, I only do it for free. Like, I only donate my time now. I don't, um, I don't charge, but I'm gonna have all these people. I have a waiting list of over 2,500 people worldwide who want to be.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

I'm not surprised though. Like in the organizing space, you are obviously well known, but also I think people in that space are looking for somebody to tell them how to do it.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

And how to do it for your client's brain, how to make it work. And we're not just buying bins because we saw them on Instagram. Like, how can we set up a home that actually works for you and your family and stays tidy all the time? And uh so I've developed a way to train people to diagnose and and how to do this step by step, and then I'll just take a small fee. And I'm hoping, honestly, that they'll create the content too of before and afters that can be featured on the Cluddy Bug channel. I'll pay them for that. We'll just split the revenue and and everyone's winning, and it will no longer be about me, it'll be about the brand, which is beautiful, and that's the whole the whole end goal.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Yeah, I love that. I love that. And I love something you said very early on, actually. When you were actually starting this, you said that you were an organizer, and then you said that you would do it for free if you had to come back. And people initially, before you developed the system, people were asking you back, and you were like, right, I have to fix that. And I personally thought that was really nice because what you were doing, what you were sort of saying was like, I want to be irrelevant in this business. And I think that's not always the case, but for some reason for you it wasn't. Can you talk me through why you were determined to fix it in a way that it was fixed?

SPEAKER_02 28:04

Well, it was that was kind of an accident, actually. So I thought, how can I market myself that people will actually hire me? And then I was like, I know, I'll give them a money-back guarantee. If it doesn't stay organized for at least 30 days, I'll come back and organize it for free. Then I printed 500 business cards with that on it and put that on my website and I put that on my flyers and I pasted it everywhere. And then people started calling, and my husband's like, that was really dumb. You should have thought that through. Because here I am spending evenings and weekends going back to reorganize a space. It's costing me my time, it's costing me money. I had to provide child care for my own children. I'm like, this is this is an anti-business. This is, I'm gonna go bankrupt. But I didn't want to give up. And how do you take back now that it's out there? You know, it's like actually, so I was like, no, I gotta figure out how to. I made a mistake. How can I make this work? And so I thought, okay, now I have to figure out how to stop going back. How do I, how do I make it so I it actually stays? And part of it was, of course, I wanted my clients to actually have success and it stayed, but also it was survival. You know, I had to figure out this because this is a promise that was already out there in my business and I could not roll it back. And I, yeah, so that caused me to kind of look differently and and realize it was actually my one client. I had a lawyer, and I'm like, why are you doing this? Why are you pulling everything out and spreading it all over? And I would I realized, oh, because you're visual, it's out of sight, out of mind. And and it just really formed this four thing, these four different styles. And I knew I was onto something when people stopped calling me to come back and do it for free. Even though that was still my marketing strategy, very rarely did I ever have to go back, except if they were hiring me for another space.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Which is really unique because most of those systems, and this is why I thought your story was so interesting, is like most of those systems, it's kind of a maintenance project. Like, are you hiring an organizer or are you hiring somebody to, you know, like it's not organized? And and you see that in kind of people's spaces. I personally do not help with organization, but I get asked about it all the time. And I'm just like, I'm not an expert. Like, this is not my area of expertise, but it is such a struggle, especially with ADHD, especially with the working memory and all of the, you know, the time-blindness and all of the things that make the need to be visual and things like that so so evident.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

And I think what would surprise, what surprised all my clients actually when I die, most of them, was the fact that it doesn't look anything like you think organization is going to look like. Most of the homes I organize, people who are chronically disorganized are what I call butterflies or ladybugs, which means they don't do details or they are really visual. So I'll be like, okay, we're throwing your dresser in the garbage and we're getting a big old bin system for you, and we're not folding anymore. And this is where you naturally drop your keys. So I'm just gonna put a basket there with a label keys or a hook here. Like I adapted their home for how they were already putting things down instead of setting up a system that they then had to try to maintain. Instead, I just changed the home so they could still be their normal, messy, lazy selves, but their house caught them in a and that's what real organization is.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

I think that's so important. I remember I used to show people there's a video, Casey Neistat, his workspace. I don't know if you know him, but I used to show people that space because it was crazy. And it was just to be like, look, examples of other ways to organize your space. Because yeah, like the cupboard with the with the boxes that maybe are labeled, maybe aren't. And then behind there is another box, and then in that box is a thing. Oh, there's no way I was ever gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

It's crazy. Like I have lids behind me, but it's because I rarely use those things. For the things I use every single day, I need a big old basket, I need a label, and it has to be where I naturally just drop it, anyways. I don't fold not one freaking thing in my entire house when it comes to laundry. I have to chuck things away like it's a basketball. I have to make it so freaking easy for my brain. And I think that's where this journey really started was oh, I don't organize in a traditional way. If it works for me, then I can help replicate it for other people. But then again, I discovered, oh my gosh, but some people are really detailed and some people are too detailed, and some people are really visual. So it developed into what it is today, which is the four styles.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Yeah, no, it's very, very cool. I do have one question because uh this is something I often get is when I'm working with entrepreneurs, one of my things is like, do not organize the back of your closet drawer. Because for a lot of times with entrepreneurship, it's a procrastination style. So people will start a business and they'll be like, I know that I need to like call that person about that sale and follow up and da-da-da, but oh sky, I just I need to organize my desk and I need to organize this and and then I will do it, I promise. And I was always like, so yeah, I wanted to know from you. Have you ever found people using organization as procrastination?

SPEAKER_02 33:38

I think what people are actually doing isn't organizing, and they're what they're doing is they're sorting. So people really like to sort into piles and to make one big thing into lots of little tiny neater piles or line things up. That actually is not organization. It's the death of organization. So people procrastinate by doing this thing that feels soothing to their brain, but actually isn't creating lasting order or even new systems. They are just tidying or perhaps making one pile into lots of 50 million tiny piles. But I will say, like, true organization, I think is essential because it gives this like calmness to your home and to your brain so you can actually do things. Plus, it's the time savings. I used I was messy. I am a recovering super slob. I am still naturally a disaster messy person. But I don't have to ever look for anything, I never have to waste time hunting or stuff shuffling or managing my mess because it's really easy to find everything and it's super easy to put it away. And that's, I think, the difference. I have never in my life sorted into piles. Never. Never. And no one else should either.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

You're coming for so many people on Netflix right now. I'm not gonna say. But yeah, no, that's so good. And you heard it here first, guys. This is what this is what we need to be doing instead. Amazing. Well, I want to just ask you a couple of questions I'd like to ask everybody as we wrap up today. So the first question is what is your biggest achievement professionally? Which what would you say is your biggest professional achievement?

SPEAKER_02 35:21

I'm gonna be honest, I've had so many wonderful achievements, and always the last one feels like the best. So I can't say just one. I think hitting a million subscribers was amazing. The first time I hit a million dollars revenue was amazing. That my own TV show was amazing, but but I just got this book deal with Harper Collins, which is the big five, you know, and it was that was it's like the big I've had lots of books uh and I worked with indie publishers, but this is my first time having a real for real grown-up big girl book deal. So I do think that is probably my biggest professional achievement. But if I I think becoming a firefighter was the coolest thing of all. I will, I know it's crazy, but it's so outside of my wheelhouse and comfort zone and and and anything I ever thought would ever be possible for me. The whole time going through the process, I was like, there ain't no way this is ever gonna happen, but I'm gonna try anyways. And so that for me feels the most fulfilling and the most rewarding of anything I've ever uh achieved, I guess, work-related.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

And on the other side, tell me about a professional failure or embarrassment and how did you handle that?

SPEAKER_02 36:34

So when I started my journey, I had another channel that I was marketing and I got up to a hundred thousand subscribers. It took me five years, and I didn't even know I could make money off YouTube. And someone said, Did you know you could make money on YouTube? And I looked into it and I turned on AdSense, and that first month I made more money than I had in six months running a daycare. And I felt like this, holy, this is gonna happen! And everyone wanted to know, how are you making money? And so I explained back then what it was was they would put banner ads on your videos, and if you clicked it, if someone clicked it, you would get like five or ten cents. So a very sweet family member thought that they would help, and they spent a whole day clicking my ad. And what happened was I was immediately banned from YouTube's AdSense on that channel, and I could never earn money again. And my only option was to start a brand new channel from scratch or continue doing it for free. And I felt like I didn't even know I could have it, but five years of work and then knowing what it could be, and then immediately for it to be taken away forever, I laid in bed for weeks and just cried. I had a choice, like I could give up, I could keep doing it for free, or I could start over again from scratch. And it's not like you can just copy paste, you know, because it's view-based. And and I was like, guys, I have a new channel. It took three more years to grow back to where I was. Three more years. And the first year and a half of that, I did not make a dime, and I still worked every day for free. That hurt so bad. But my first channel was called Malato 79. My second channel was branded clutterbug. My second channel, I went in thinking, this is a business. I'm gonna do this one right. I'm gonna think also about diversifying my income. I can't put all my eggs in a YouTube basket. I better have printables and courses, and I better have books, and I better have way like a million other ways to monetize this. And none of and that's where the real revenue comes from, right? Is all my diversifying of my income, which I never would have done had I not had that epic, epic failure.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Yeah, wow. That is, that is I am I'm glad you went back and did it. Yeah, it's a blessing now, but I understand how hard that would have been. That that's that's yeah, that's that's very intense. Well done. Well done to you. The persistence.

SPEAKER_02 39:09

But honestly, like I I really loved it. And then it was like, I had this like, it could be awesome. Just get back on the horse. And and yeah, it and it made it better than it ever, ever would have been. Like it felt like an epic failure, but what I've learned is it's all those failures that are actually the like step ladders, like each step to real success. It's the failure that forges success, not the wins.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Yeah, you think you're falling down the ladder, but you're not.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

No, it's the best thing that ever happened to my business.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

And you know, if you had a quote for your life, for your business, something you say to yourself or tell other people, what would that quote be?

SPEAKER_02 39:54

Yep, it's Wayne Gretzky. You miss a hundred percent of the shots you don't take. I live in Canada. We love hockey, but I love that because so many people are afraid to fail or afraid to do something wrong or make a mistake or be embarrassed. And I think the most embarrassing epic failure of all is not trying. And and so I'm just like, I'm gonna, there's things that I have no business doing, but I'm gonna try anyways. Because the worst that could happen is I end up exactly the same place I am now. But the best thing that could happen is I get to drive a fire truck and go go in a burning house and save people, you know? So, like, what? Um of course you should always try everything. Of course, you should write that book and start that business and and do that course and start that podcast. And you should think so freaking huge because you're not gonna make all the shots, but you might make some.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Well, Cass, tell people where they can find you. Tell people where they can find Clutterbug. They can't find you with your email, but where else?

SPEAKER_02 41:03

You're definitely not gonna find my email. But you could go to clutterbug.com and you can take my free quiz. I don't even ask for your email, and you can discover your organizing style and then get lots of free, like step-by-step help to set up your home, exactly how your brain works, so it's easy and it's effortless and do not sort into a million different piles. There's a better way. And you can learn all about that at clutterbug.com, or you can go to YouTube and you'll find my channel Clutterbug.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the ADHD Skills Lab. If you liked it, leave us a five star review. It helps other people learn more about us. And thank you so much to our wonderful team for making us sound good, look good. We couldn't do it without you.