The Sterling Family Law Show
The Sterling Family Law Show is where successful family law attorneys share the exact systems they used to build million-dollar practices.
Host Jeff Hughes scaled Sterling Lawyers from zero to $17M with 27 attorneys.
Co-host Tyler Dolph runs Rocket Clicks, the agency in charge of supercharging Sterling and other family law practices to success using revenue-first marketing strategies.
Together, they share the playbook for building the law firm of your dreams.
If you're looking to grow exponentially, generate revenue, and get good at business, this podcast is for you.
The Sterling Family Law Show
From $0 to $17MM: The Sales Training That Changed Everything - #159
Sales training isn't optional for family law firms—it's the difference between 15% and 30% close rates on cold leads.
A lot of attorneys resist sales training because they think it's "dirty." The data shows attorneys sell constantly—to judges, clients, and peers. Our systematic approach at Sterling turned a 15% cold lead closer into a consistent 25-30% performer through daily role-play training and our Council College program. The result? You need fewer consultations to hit revenue targets, and your intake team development becomes predictable instead of hoping for natural talent.
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📝 Schedule a FREE Family Law Firm Audit: https://rocketclicks.com/schedule-a-family-law-quick-audit/
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📄 CHAPTERS:
0:00 - Sales Training Reality Check: Why Attorneys Resist What They Already Do
1:45 - Redefining Sales Commitment: From Dirty Word to Professional Service
5:32 - Sales Training as Growth Strategy: Daily Role-Play Systems That Work
8:38 - Council College Framework: Teaching Attorneys to Listen Before Speaking
12:10 - Lead Follow-Up Systems: The 91-Day Sequence That Converts Cold Prospects 14:37 - Mary's Method: How One Intern Became Our Best Sales Manager
18:38 - Balancing Process with Authenticity: Why Scripts Kill Conversions
23:28 - Activity vs Achievement: The Vince Lombardi Sales Truth
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Tell us in the comments if you liked this episode and what other kinds of episodes you would like to see.
Are you tired of inconsistent sales results and leads that slip through the cracks? The real problem might not be your process. It might be your people's commitment. In today's competitive family law market, mastering sales is not optional. It's your edge.
Speaker 1:My name is Tyler Dolph. I'm the CEO of our agency, rocketclicks. We are a full service agency that works exclusively with family law firms to help them grow their business, attract more leads and have a wonderful life. Today I am joined by our president, tony Carls. He's also the co-founder of our very own family law firm called Sterling Lawyers that has scaled to over 30 attorneys across 25 offices. We are very excited to have him here today. And today we're going to talk about commitment the commitment to personal sales growth and to every lead that enters your funnel. We'll break it down into five core ideas, each packed with practical tips for family law professionals. I really hope you enjoy it, tom. Great to have you back.
Speaker 1:We are continuing our series on diving deep into sales and sales within family law firms. A lot of law firms do it a lot of different ways. You know our smaller law firm clients. It's your head attorney is doing all the consults and all the sales. Once you see the growth in law firms and our own firm we're doing. We've evolved all the way into non-attorney sales, but sales still matters, whether you're doing it yourself, you're outsourcing, whatever we're going to talk today about the five ways sales commitment drives growth in a family law firm, and the first one we're going to talk about is redefining commitment in sales. Give us a little perspective here on what you've seen over the years.
Speaker 2:I would start out with saying this is probably a topic that most of our attorneys don't want to hear. That's been my experience at Sterling, primarily because sales is dirty and I don't want to be a salesperson. The truth is, attorneys are constantly selling their clients on safety and security and a future that they don't have today. They're constantly selling judges and opposing parties on their ideas and their positions. They're constantly selling their teammates and their peers in the marketplace on their competence. Attorneys are probably in their day-to-day interactions. They sell more than most positions. They sell way more than people in marketing, because most of their interactions are they're communicating ideas that other people need to, that they want other people to accept as the idea we're going to move forward with. So you know, I think redefining commitment in sales means how do we recognize that everything we're doing is a sale? It's like everything we're doing is a sale. It's not a dirty word. It's a dirty word when you're a scumbag salesperson and you try to cheat people out of something, yeah, then it's absolutely a dirty word. But when done ethically and in the right intention and with professionalism, it's what we all do every day, every single one of us that is successful in the marketplace. We're constantly selling either, actually selling our services through a service perspective.
Speaker 2:You know, one of the things we talk about here is we're, we don't. We don't need your money, so we're going to tell you, we're going to show you what we can do, we're going to show you the proof of how it works, and you know we're going to, we're going to follow up with you on on it. We're going to show you the proof of how it works and you know we're going to, we're going to follow up with you on on it. We're not going to negotiate necessarily on price, because this is, this is how much work it takes to get this done. And here's the outcome and this is, this is what it looks like.
Speaker 2:So, like, consistency in sales is like how are we?
Speaker 2:Are we believing that it's important? Are we showing up in all these moments? Are we, are we doing things truly out of service? Like because, if we are, the sell should come from the fact that you truly believe that you are the best person for potential client to work with, because you're going to give them the most security and most confident position in the future, and you're selling out of the fact that you authentically believe that it's not a sale anymore. You believe it and you want them to believe it. So you're, you're communicating that belief. You're all you're communicating in sales, if you're doing it well, is belief and confidence in what you have to offer and not everybody will take it, and that's fine. But the reality is like that in what you have to offer and not everybody will take it, and that's fine. But the reality is like that's where you want to come from from a point of sales. If you're going to do sales tricks, you should feel gross because it's not going to work and it's going to feel disgusting.
Speaker 1:It's not sales, it's that's. That's manipulation right. That, to me, is the difference is if, if you truly believe in what you are advocating for, whether it's a product or a service, or a point of view or a dinner location at home, you are selling. You're selling because you believe. You're convicted to share this belief with another party. Right, that's sales. Manipulation is all the other stuff, it's all the gross stuff that that makes sales have a bad name.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Yeah, I mean the way we do it here at RocketClicks is every person that that onboards, regardless of position, they have to go through a sales training program in Udemy. That's one of their. I think it's a week. I think it's either week one or week two. We have four weeks of pre-planned work for everybody that starts, I believe, either week one or week two. They have to go through a sales workshop and like understand that part of what they're doing, even though they're not in a sales role, is they're selling the ideas that we have as an agency around what it looks like for family law firms to grow and grow consistently and scale their business. Because if they can't communicate it, no law firm owner should buy it. No law firm owner, in our weekly calls that we have with them, should buy an unconvincing strategy from one of our strategists. Because the reality is is why should I believe you if I don't really think you believe in what you're talking about?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you touched on our second point there, which is investing in sales training as a growth strategy, and I know you have the sales team at Sterling, the non-attorney sales team that goes through training all the time, and then we have our own sales training here at the agency. How have you seen that really uplift your sales team and top grade them to continue to improve?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So on the, on the intake side it's, you know, a lot of times what we're looking for is people that are they're early on in their sales career because they're working in an intake type role. So we want to teach them how to do it well and do it ethically and do it with conviction. Our best intake people they're not good sales people quote unquote from like a process perspective. They communicate their belief in Sterling and that's why they're successful in that role. Those that don't do that well, they don't perform well from a metrics perspective. Same thing on the non-attorney sales side. Those are more seasoned, higher end sales type people that are making, you know, in the, in the six figures and they're um, you know, they have more of the sales skills, but again, it's the same. It's the same thing.
Speaker 2:Um, and in those two, in those two roles over at Sterling, every day we do a role play training and it's just something we do every day and it's something that our sales manager runs, and we essentially go over a topic and role play that topic with a couple different people on the team, in front of the team as a group, and what that does is it gets everybody more confident. They start asking questions, they start seeing things that they may have not experienced if they're less, if they're less experienced on the team, and everybody grows because now we're in a like everybody's part of a growth, a growth mindset in that one area from a skills perspective. And then on the attorney side, we developed what we call consult college over at Sterling and it's something all of our attorneys, before they start taking consults, have to go through. Yeah, I believe it's a three-month course and most of it is around how are you communicating the future, how are you shutting your mouth so that they can tell and unload their story? Because what a client doesn't want to do is hear how smart you are. What they want to hear is that. What they want to feel is heard and understood and like. That's a different type of communication than regurgitating statutes and different types of case law and situational things. That is going to weigh above the client's head. You know, there's one of the things.
Speaker 2:We record our consults, whether it's attorney or non-attorney, and we use it as training material internally. And there was one consult where a lady came in. She's telling the story of how she's where she is getting a divorce. Her mom had died the week prior and then her dog died that week. So just like she's like just pouring her soul out to our attorney and this was one of our attorneys. That was like this was before we were doing console college. This was one of our attorneys that was more of a I'm going to tell you how smart I am.
Speaker 2:In the consultation room she didn't empathize at all. After all that was said, she just communicated here's the next step, here's how we're going to go. And it was. It's just like it's a funny recording to hear, but it's so obvious when you listen to it that what's the human response in that circumstance? It's like are you okay? Like, do you, do you need a hug? Are you? Are you actually doing okay right now? Cause that's a lot, that's tough. So and our attorneys that do that, naturally they're amazing in the consultation room, but it's because they make a connection. They're not selling anything, they're selling that they believe they can help you. They're authentic, they tell you the truth, they're not trying to oversell you anything that you shouldn't hear. So and back to it investing in this type of training has massive impact on revenue, because you get more efficient in your funnel, you need less consults to get deals, so on and so forth.
Speaker 1:I would say that people have different backgrounds that grow up into being in sales in some way or another. Some people do it based on EQ and reading people and being able to read situations, and that's how they're able to be good at sales. Others know the facts better than everybody else, and so by having a training where you can come together and learn best practices as it relates to your firm like your point about empathy is so important, right? If I'm a salesperson, I'm only fact driven and I don't show any empathy, Well then you're going to have the call that you described. But if you can learn a little empathy and hey, if someone's pouring their heart out, take a second, take a beat, ask them how they're really doing Like that's going to improve your ability to make a great living and also impact people's lives in a positive way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say another thing here is this isn't optional. Investing in sales training isn't optional. If you're going to be prospecting in the marketplace, if you're getting only referrals, you don't need this because they're already pre-introduced to you and they're going to close at a really high rate. What we see often is a client comes in, they don't have a prospecting funnel and then when they get prospects from the marketplace that aren't referrals, they close them really poorly and then they just think the leads suck and the reality is it's like no, you're not good at actually doing the sales part because you're so used to layups. Referrals are so easy to close.
Speaker 2:That same, that same person that I described, she she had lots of referrals because she was super connected in the Lake country area. So she, you know, she's kind of a very involved with her church. She was involved with I forget what other, forget what organization Oconomowoc but like everybody knew who, she was right. So when you pulled her referrals out of her closing rate, she closed so poorly. But when you looked at her total closing rate with referrals included, it looked like she was one of our better closers. And the reality was no, her referral closing rate was like 80%, which is great.
Speaker 2:Her cold lead closing rate was like 15% because she actually didn't know how to do it. She didn't know how to do well and console college helped her, helped her like role play out that, that opportunity that I described so and she got. She got better. You know, is she ever she's probably never going to be a 40% closer, but she became a 25 to 30% closer very consistently and that makes a big difference. That's like way less consults that you need scheduled. So sales training here, if you're going to be prospecting in the marketplace, is absolutely required, because you will fall on your face if you don't know how to do it.
Speaker 1:Love it, I mean as it pertains to sales training. You know, our third point here is follow up with every lead, no matter what, and I think one thing I learned early on in my career was that you never know what's going to happen until you have the conversation. And so you might as well continue to try to have the conversation, because you know, if you can stay positive and work the program, the good things are going to work out.
Speaker 2:Tell us why this matters in law?
Speaker 2:Well, I don't think it's any different. I can tell you a a story about. So our, our, our sales manager today. Her name is Mary. When she started she was just an intern working on the marketing team and she was like running around the state, um, helping us at night when we were running our workshops, so that's kind of what she was doing. She put the sign up outside and she would like have the signup sheet. She agreed all the customers, all the potential clients, and she would seat them in the conference room, make sure the attorney's presentation was set up, so on and so forth. So she did that for I don't know three, four months. She helped with some other stuff too on the marketing side, but she wasn't in, she wasn't day-to-day in the org. And then she and she wanted to be. So the one thing I told her is if so, if you're going to come in and you're going to be, you'd be on the intake team. If, if you follow up and understand what, what happens with every single client and actually care about their story, you will be the best person here.
Speaker 2:And she's a Mary's, a rule follower and she so. Every day she had a new piece of paper. She wrote down every single person's name that she didn't have an answer from from the previous day and all the people she talked to that she didn't have an answer from today on that list and every day she'd write all their names down. Every single day. New piece of paper, write all their names down Manually, like that, and she would follow up until she heard from that person how they were moving forward and if they needed anything. It didn't mean they all closed with her, but they all knew Mary cared, they could just feel it and she she truly believed that Sterling was the best place for them to be and that's why she performed so well, because she followed up with care about making sure that they were safe, cause we hear tons of stories that are hard and not everybody can afford Ford services. But she was good with. She did research on other resources and other ways to go about it and she would follow up until she knew that person was moving forward in a way that they felt safe and she's very successful as a result.
Speaker 2:She did intake, she did. She was our best non-attorney salesperson. She now runs our sales team. She's very wildly successful there. That's so awesome.
Speaker 1:It just like gets me excited hearing that Love the follow-up.
Speaker 2:It's a good follow-up. It's like it's everything, it's everything.
Speaker 1:There's some stat about the number of deals that close on the first call versus, like, the 15th call.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, and it's it's so many more deals later. I, yeah, and it's like so many more deals later. Yeah, I think. It's like. I think it's more than 50% of deals will close between calls eight and 12, some stat like that, so it's a massive portion, and most people hate doing the follow-up and they're like this is pointless. I followed up four times and they don't even answer my phone. It's like yep, you haven't hit eight yet. Have you Keep going? You hit nine. Have you hit 10? Have you hit 11? Oh, look, they answered. They answered and they now are really. They really believe that you care?
Speaker 1:I mean, we've seen that, even on the marketing side, where we'll get a lead and we'll continue to follow up and have conversations, and it may take a year and if you know when it finally happens, we always, you know, laugh like, hey, look, there's another example. You just got to stay in touch.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, don't have them restart their their search process. They already contacted you once, so they just don't believe you care. So help them believe that you care, follow up.
Speaker 1:Which you know that kind of leads into, like our fourth point, which is balancing high commitment with smart efficiency. So how are you creating those efficiencies, those rhythms, those processes and maintaining high commitment at the same time?
Speaker 2:processes and maintaining high commitment at the same time. So I think you can over process sales Music to my ears, yeah, like. I think there's a real truth there. And what ends up happening is when you over process and, like you, over commit to to a process, all the person on the other side of that sales hears is your script and then it's not working anymore, if that makes sense. So there's, yeah, you lose the enthusiasm of the sales team as well as you. You don't sound authentic anymore and your, your potential clients, feel that.
Speaker 2:You know, when we first rolled out consult college, the V1, um, our our like revisit on what we taught um wasn't as good as it could be. So what I would say maybe a quarter to a third of our team did was they just implemented a script and that, like nothing changed. They followed the process. We measured that. They followed the process, but they didn't close any better because all they were doing is like checking the boxes. They were committed, but they weren't, weren't really working with, you know, smart efficiency. They were overly, they were overly committed on process and they weren't balancing IQ or EQ, like you said before. I think that's a really smart way to think about it Because if you're overly processed and you don't have any EQ, you're probably not going to close the deal. You're all EQ and there's no process. You're probably losing people along the way because they don't know where you're going and they're like well, he was a nice guy, but I don't really understand anything he said. So having a balance of both, I think, is really important.
Speaker 1:And there's always going to be. I think we talk about it. There's going to be a healthy friction between sales and ops, right? That is a good thing, if managed correctly. And how do you get both teams working officially together, knowing that there's going to be that kind of friction?
Speaker 2:I would say the like. Getting the team to work well together is helping them, helping them both understand each other's roles. I think that's when there's when there's like full awareness of the tensions in both a you're going to problem solve better. So like you're not going to, um, you'll be less likely to say that's their problem, cause you're you're like okay, I see how that sucks and I see how I'm creating more work. Like this happens.
Speaker 2:So intake teams a big complaint intake teams have and if your intake team isn't telling you this, it's probably just because they're not telling you the truth is they can't stand how often things get rescheduled Because they already, if they did a good job doing that initial sale well, especially on a paid consultation, to have an attorney who didn't manage their calendar well, to have an attorney who didn't manage their calendar well, tell them to reschedule a consultation is so demotivating, right. But on the other side, like things happen on attorney's calendars that things need to be rescheduled, so like that's a tension point that's often there. It may not be talked about in a lot of firms because your intake team might not be telling you the truth, but that it's there, trust me, it's there and having healthy communication around that, so that you're both respecting each other and you're getting the best out of each other, will allow the intake team member to be as highly motivated as possible in that call and they're going to sound more authentic and they're going to be a better representative of you and your brand. Um, you know that comes through the communication between between both and having the intake team understand this is going to happen. We don't want it to happen.
Speaker 2:So how do we make, how do we, how do we create a situation where this happens as few times as possible and then on the attorney side, like really understand, like what that means, like that's um. So that communication, I think, is um really important because better high quality conversations you can have with each other, with each other internally, the better problems you're actually going to solve. So and that comes back to kind of really balancing process over relationships Like how do you do?
Speaker 1:how do you?
Speaker 2:do both Well yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:You got to work together to have a shared fate and a common goal and be able to understand strengths and weaknesses of both teams. I want to close on our final point, which I think is is I giggled at it when we were prepping for this and it's the avoiding the busy equals the committed trap. A lot of times salespeople maybe a majority of salespeople love the well I'm busy. That must mean I'm doing a good job thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean busy equaling committed can look like a lot of activity and not very much result, so kind of back to the like. If you have a really strong inflow of potential clients but you're you don't have a great close rate on those, the problem might be the fact that your, your team, isn't committed and they're not actually doing followup. It might not have anything to do with the quality of the lead, because there's, you know, we over at Sterling we follow up, for we have a 91 day followup sequence that gets perfectly executed, not a high percentage of the time, but we get to about 70% of that often and we do it because it works and we balance the idealized follow-up against staffing and profitability. But the reality is we're committed to follow-up and we see results as a result, not just dump more into the funnel because we can hire more intake people. Let's hire the right intake people, let's hire the right intake people. Let's have the right processes, right procedures. We'll need less leads, we'll have be more profitable, so on and so forth.
Speaker 2:So I would say you know, being overly busy and not getting results is not a not a great thing. If your team is busy and you're not scheduling consults, they're working on stuff that doesn't matter. The Vince Lombardi quote is don't mistake activity for achievement. It's something I say all the time. It's very true in sales. You can be super active and not achieve anything. Achievement is like did I get a deal across the finish line?
Speaker 1:That's it. Go back to the scoreboard. And that's the beauty of sales. Right, it's a scoreboard. It's very clear. Am I doing the job or not? Am I making money or not? I love this. Tony. I appreciate your time and insight in continuing our deep dive into the sales at family law firms and really excited for the next episode as well. Uh, we'll look forward to seeing you over there. If you found this episode uh exciting, if you enjoyed it, please continue to follow, uh our journey as we continue to deep dive into the sales role, uh role at family law firms. Uh, make sure to check out our next episode, which is the Great Shortage of Talented Salespeople. We're going to dive into why it's happening, what it means for your firm and how to build a recruitment and retention strategy that actually works. Check it out here and we will see you there.
