Growing a Law Firm to 7 Offices With AI and Remote Teams - #202

Growing a law firm from solo to 7 offices across Indiana — Bob Nice shares 30 years of real lessons on what actually works.

Bob went from pharmacy school to running 13 attorneys across rural Indiana. No silver bullet, no overnight success. Just decades of figuring out what breaks a firm and what builds one.

In this episode, he walked us through:

• Two partnership disasters (one where the partner literally vanished with the bank account)
• Why most attorneys are terrible at delegation
• How his firm adopted AI tools and remote operations before it was trendy
• And why the 3-5 attorney mark is where everything changes. 

If you're trying to scale past solo or push through that messy middle of growing a law firm, this one's worth your time.

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📄 CHAPTERS

0:00 - Growing a Law Firm: Why Most Attorneys Can't Make the Jump

1:20 - From Pharmacist to Lawyer: The Origin Story Behind 7 Offices

3:03 - Leaving Big Law: The $3K Bonus That Changed Everything

5:12 - Law Firm Partnership Problems: The Night His Office Was Emptied

7:41 - Law Firm Delegation Tips: Why "Perfect Is the Enemy of the Good"

9:31 - Virtual Bookkeeping and Scaling Your Back Office

10:41 - AI Tools for Law Firms: From Read AI to AI-Powered Client Intake

14:03 - Remote Law Firm Operations: One Day to Go Fully Virtual

16:59 - Rural Law Firm Growth: Big Firm Mentality in Small Markets

19:49 - Law Firm Cash Flow Planning: Why Debt Is a Killer

22:38 - Hiring Attorneys Small Firm: Building a Bench of Talent

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Transcript

Growing a Law Firm: Why Most Attorneys Can't Make the Jump

SPEAKER_00 0:00

A lot of attorneys, you know, aren't able to make that jump from solo to multi-attorney firms. And I believe it has a lot to do with the attorney transitioning from solopreneur to a leader, you know, being able to delegate and create a management system and create processes. Welcome back to the Sterling Family Law Show, the podcast designed to help family law owners build the firm of their dreams. I'm your host, Tyler Dolph. I'm also the CEO of our law firm-only marketing consultancy called RocketClicks that was born out of our own law firm, Sterling Lawyers, that has grown to over 27 attorneys. Today we continue our owner operator series. We interview Bob Nice of the Nice Law Firm out of Indiana. He has more than 30 years of experience running his firm. He's grown into over seven attorneys and has some amazing insights. I really hope you enjoy today's episode. Robert, thank you so much for your time and be joining us on the podcast today. Really excited to learn more about you. You've been running your own law firm for a number of years. You do a lot of different things. Give us a little introduction and backstory on uh who you are and uh what the nice law firm is all about.

From Pharmacist to Lawyer: The Origin Story Behind 7 Offices

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Uh well, my name is Bob Nice, and I am the management partner, founder, and owner of the Nice Law Firm. Based in Indianapolis, we have seven offices throughout Indiana. Uh I come from rural Indiana, a little one-horse town of uh 2,300 people, 12,000 in the county. And I I knew I was going to be a pharmacist from the time I was a freshman in high school. My parents' best friend was a local druggist, and that's what I was going to do. But when um when I was the summers in high school, I would go up to the courthouse and watch what was going on, and the judge would say, Why are you here? And I'd say, you know what? I want to understand how this works. So uh off I went to pharmacy school. I got in and uh got through, and it's a fairly tough nut to crack academically, so I did well in school, but uh something happened uh midway. It was pretty cool. It was the Ford Pinto trial was held in my hometown, and there's more about that on my website. If you look at nicelawfirm.com, you can hear the full story. But the judge back there invited me to come home to watch opening statements, and I thought, wow, wouldn't it be pretty cool to stand up in front of strangers and try to persuade them to your point of view? So I went back, took the LSAT, the way we make great decisions in our life. My then girlfriend, future wife, and mother of my children asked me what I was gonna do after pharmacy school. I said, I'm going to law school. And she said, Where? And I said, Well, being a Purdue guy, anywhere but Indiana University. And so she said, There's this great school near me, which was Philadelphia, Villanova. And so I went to Villanova. I came back and did what they tell you to do, which is going to work for a big law

Leaving Big Law: The $3K Bonus That Changed Everything

SPEAKER_02 3:03

firm. And so I did that for six years and worked with very talented lawyers. But I did not like the hierarchy that I was constrained within. And then uh six years passed, and I got to a point where I worked on this case where they told me that they picked me because I'd I'd worked on the East Coast or went to school on the East Coast. We were local counsel for a $5 billion securities litigation case. And uh they sent me to Chicago every other week for six months, and I took notes, went to depositions with 40 lawyers, uh, which is really pretty boring, frankly. And um, when we were done, the firm got a $400,000 fee. And I was so brash that I went in in November and said, Hey, you know what? I did a really good job for you. And at that time I was making about 40 grand, I think, as a senior associate. And this is 30 years ago, but uh, or 35, I guess. But uh I said, I'd like a $10,000 bonus at the end of the year. And he literally said, Well, you little ungrateful son of a gun, you'll take whatever you get and be glad you get it. And they gave me $3,000. And so they gave me $3,000, and uh, I didn't leave that day, but I that was the day I knew I was leaving. And uh I spent eight months planning my departure, and when I told gave my notice, my boss looked me in the eye and said, You will never make it on your own.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

How about that for motivation?

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Today I could I could buy and sell him. So uh my first point I want to make to everybody is know your why. Why are you doing why why are you gonna leave uh the steady paycheck? Why are you gonna go out on your own? Because there's nothing steady about being self-employed. It's up and down. You know, and the long-term trend should be up, should do well. But in the interim, it is a lot of zigs and zags.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Yeah, success is not a straight line, that is 100% for sure.

Law Firm Partnership Problems: The Night His Office Was Emptied

SPEAKER_02 5:12

A lawyer, an old lawyer, told me when I was a young lawyer, he said, avoid partners. The only reason to have a partner is if you really, really need one. And there may be times when you do. But the old joke is the only ship that won't sail is a partnership. And I had a couple on the way, and it was never, never a good decision. I literally had one circumstance where I came in one morning and one of the offices down the hall was empty, the furniture was gone even, and my bank account had been drawn down to damn near zero, the partner account. So that was an unpleasant experience. So George Washington said avoid entangling alliances. That was true 250 years ago in international relations, it is also true today in business relationships. So uh I would say uh avoid partners if you can at all.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Is that uh it's an interesting uh sentiment. And uh, you know, I'm on the opposite of that. I I have a business partner who I adore. He gave me my first chance, and it's been a great partnership. Um, so uh obviously there's there's certainly nuances to that, but the the narrative around it is to better control your own destiny. Would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Yeah, and another horrible experience. When I was first starting, very first started, we had an affiliation of three lawyers, and one day I get a phone call from somebody who I peripherally knew, and he said, Bob, what's going on over there? He said, I said, What do you mean? He says, Well, we're about ready to lock you out. Why? Well, you haven't paid your rent in over three months. I said, Well, that's interesting because there was one of the three who was in control of the lease, and um I was paying him, and I went over to see the third guy and said, Are you paying your rent to Art? And he said, Yeah. So uh we had to have a heart-to-heart with Art and find out what was going on, and he was uh not doing well, and he was using our rent money to cover his own expenses, and so that's just another, maybe why once bit twice shy, and I've been bit a couple times, that uh we have we have 13 lawyers, 24 total team members, and uh I run the show and I own the show, and you know, I I I wake up in the morning resolute uh that I will not fire myself today. So I I at least have that comfort of knowing that uh I will continue to be uh engaged with a nice law

Law Firm Delegation Tips: Why "Perfect Is the Enemy of the Good"

SPEAKER_02 7:41

firm.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

I'd love to double-click on that point a little bit. You know, you've been able to expand your law firm. A lot of attorneys, you know, aren't able to make that jump uh from solo to to multi-attorney firms. And I believe it has a lot to do with the attorney transitioning from solopreneur to a leader, you know, being able to delegate and create a management system and create processes. Did you find that as you were going from a solo practitioner on your own when you left the big firm to then hiring a few employees? Tell me about that evolution.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

What were some of the you use the right word, delegate. So uh if you have what it takes to get through law school, you cannot help but be incredibly self-reliant. And so the problem is then you get out of law school and you think no one can do what I can do, and I'm not delegating anything. And I think it I think it was Jim Collins who said that perfect is the enemy of the good. So you've got to learn. My son, much wiser than me, went to business school. And what he learned in business school is that his job was to create jobs and then hire somebody to do every job he creates. And today he's in private equity and they own some some incredible amount of companies. So uh he just keeps building businesses and adding people to it and finding great people. So attorneys are not, by their nature, good delegators, and so that's why many, if not most, attorneys are fairly poor business people, as opposed to great practitioners, skilled in in their art, but running a business uh requires a different skill set.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

How did you how'd you attain it? Like what what did you do to get over that

Virtual Bookkeeping and Scaling Your Back Office

SPEAKER_00 9:31

hump?

SPEAKER_02 9:32

Well, the first step, I think the 12 steps, is telling you that you've got to recognize the problem, right? You've got to recognize that um what is my limitation? Well, it's me. You look in the mirror. I'm the limitation. I have to grow and evolve, or I can't get this done. So you start looking at the tasks that you do, the repetitive, and say, Well, gosh, I don't want to do that. Maybe I did more to my paralegal, okay. Maybe I'm tired of the bookkeeping, even though I'm really good at bookkeeping. You know what? I I know bookkeeping cold, but I can't sit around and do those transactions all day long anymore, especially today. So it's evolved. I had a couple employees, part-time employees. I got pictures from the other staff taking a picture of my part-time bookkeeper literally with his head down asleep at his desk. That wasn't good. Today I have a virtual bookkeeper with a company that can scale as I continue to grow, it can get bigger and bigger. They have bookkeeper, controller, CFO levels, so whatever I need, they can do. And that's a great delegation for me to be able to have them do that. Um it's it's an evolution. The other thing that goes hand in hand with that is efficiencies.

AI Tools for Law Firms: From Read AI to AI-Powered Client Intake

SPEAKER_02 10:41

So I unbelievably, I hate to say this, but I'm 66 years old. Can't believe it. I've been at this for 40 years this month, sworn in in October of 85. So there were no computers when I got out of school. The old partners were just excited that copiers had just showed up and they didn't have to hire secretaries to strike through, they could call them strikers, not secretaries, because they had to pound through seven pieces of carbon paper to make their copies. So, since then, of course, technology's arrived, and I've embraced it. When I got out of school, I was the first, this 40 lawyer firm, they had just gotten a Lexus terminal, and I was the only one who knew how to use it because at the end of law school, this little red thing with a keyboard, uh, and some of the partners thought, we don't want, if Bob can do four hours of research in 15 minutes, we don't want him doing that because we want him to build four hours. And that is that is a short-term view to a long-term issue. Technology is a great equalizer. And so same is true for AI today, right? Well, I'm old enough to remember pre-internet. There was a time when there was no internet. There was no microwave when I grew up. So uh life has evolved and you have to evolve with it. And so I made a commitment. Most of my peer group continue through their careers to be technophobes, somebody else do it. They still want to write down their time entries and give them to a secretary and have them punched into a Word document. Well, um, the world's moved past that. So AI today is bigger and better than the internet was when it showed up. It's moving faster. So we have a committee in our firm on AI. And a year ago, nine months ago, I guess, really, really first in January, this is 10, um, we met and talked about how can we use AI in the firm. And the only thing we were doing was uh I learned how to make some really cool PowerPoint presentation images with AI. Uh you can have, I want to be on the stage giving a talk with uh six leprechauns uh out in the audience, and poof, there it is. It's just so cool. But since then, now I use um read AI to summarize all of my virtual meetings, and it I have a weekly marketing meeting with my marketing coordinator, and 30 minutes before that meeting, it remembers to send me the outline from last week so I know exactly what our bullet points were and my expectations, and I can hold him accountable for what he's supposed to get done. And now we're using it to summarize documents, depositions, things like that. I'm limited in what I use for generative AI, but boy, is it out there and use it for generating standard operating procedures in the business. Fantastic. And just this week we're looking at using AI for client intake. And it's literally AI will now have a conversation with you, and it sounds like a 30-year-old pretty woman who's so interested and empathetic in your problems, it's nothing short of amazing. So, in technology, you have to embrace it, don't fear it. And that leads me to another point, uh, which is remote working.

Remote Law Firm Operations: One Day to Go Fully Virtual

SPEAKER_02 14:03

So in March of 2020, Eli Lilly, based here in Indianapolis, sent their people home. And I thought, wow, Eli Lilly knows more about healthcare than I do. So I gathered everybody and says, you know what, we got to work from home. But we had made good decisions along the way technologically, so that it took us one day to move our computers and our two screens and webcams and uh everything, dedicated phones, home. And after that, we were right back in business. And a bunch of firms, um, some failed, many were crushed by the pandemic, and it really had a minimal impact on us because we were ready. And I guess within that, you save a lot of time if you don't have. I'm I'm sitting in my home right now. I have an office in my home here, I have one in my home in Arizona, and I have the real office, great big building. It's got the sign on the thank God it's got the sign on the building for advertising because I only go there about three, four times a month for appointments. That's all of our seven offices, only two have people in them every day.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Yeah, we're very much the same. Um, at Sterling, we have over 25 offices, and we use five of them as hubs and then leverage the others uh for appointments and marketing. Go there when you need to. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

Go there when you need to. That's absolutely uh right. So there's a lot of benefits from that, and most employees appreciate it, enjoy it. We had one lawyer leave because he missed the society of being down the hall from somebody, but maybe he just wanted to drink too much coffee and tell stories. I don't I don't know which way that went. Uh, because I'm I'm still available, whether I'm here or out of state. Uh I'm able to run the business and most uh courtroom work, if it's non-evidentiary, most of it is done remotely. Instead of having to drive 45 minutes each way, go through security and say, Hi, Judge, how are you? Uh good to see you today. How are the kids? Fine, thank you, Bob. 10 minutes on getting dates for the litigation. Then, okay, see you next time. Thanks, Bob, for you. Thank you, Judge. Boom.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

So it's just evolved dramatically over those 40 years that I've been in practice, and we've we've embraced that. Hey, family law firm leaders. My partner, Tony Carls, just released his book where he lays bare our precise blueprint for growing sterling lawyers from zero to 17 million. This is the blueprint that we still use daily. And Tony explains it in very simple terms. The truth is, this is not simple to do. Success requires and demands hard work, but if you have the patience and the work ethic to do it, your family law firm will succeed.

Rural Law Firm Growth: Big Firm Mentality in Small Markets

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Bob, I'd like to shift quickly to the architecture of your firm. Um, obviously you've grown, you have over seven attorneys, you have multiple practice areas. Was that always the plan? Or did you start in one and then as you got referrals and leads, you you built out others? Tell us about why you decided to go multi-practice.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

So, first of all, when I was a young lawyer, I joined everything. I was out there in the world going to church, to Kowano, Turtoma, um, volunteering for the Cancer Society, going to the kids' little league baseball, whatever it was, you know, shaking hands and handing out cards. And people have different problems. It's not all one area awful. And so I learned to do a lot of different things and I found it fascinating. And sometimes you got to be working hard to stay just ahead of the knowledge curve of what your client knows because the client will do everything to become an expert, especially with the internet now. They will want to become an expert on that area quickly. And so you'd better know, you better do what it takes to get up to speed. But but yes, I I wanted to follow a big firm mentality but serve smaller markets. So I have gone into smaller communities where we are well known individually, and it's it's really a great thing when people are calling you attorney nice, just like a doctor. Uh you're wearing a suit, you're one of the you recognize you're the top 2% education-wise in the community, and uh people respect you for what you are and what you do for them. And um the cost of living is probably 30-40% less out in more rural Indiana. If you like outdoors, especially. And if there's anybody less than who wants a job uh as a lawyer in a rural part of Indiana, you just call me because I'm ready to set you up. But they're hard to find. Uh, but there's a lot to be said for the kinder, gentler lifestyle that you get out in more rural communities.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Love it. And so it was more about uh creating the lifestyle in the locations you wanted and then servicing that community in as many ways as you could based on multiple practice areas.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

Right. We're instantly the biggest law firm in a small community when we go in. And so if someone comes to the door and says, I need an action, a quiet title, and the attorney at that location can barely spell quiet, it's okay because we have other people who can and we can assist. Uh it's very it's very hard to be a solo. I think you have to really try to get three to five. Uh, and that's kind of where if you can get to five, it starts to take off then. Up and up until three to five, just everybody's kind of on the gerbil trail, you know, running running the race. Uh after that, you can start getting some leverage.

Law Firm Cash Flow Planning: Why Debt Is a Killer

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Yeah, love it. Awesome. Bob, as we kind of finish up here, I want to take us back to you know, our purpose, which is helping the next generation of attorneys, whether they're leaving their own practice or they are trying to grow their own practice. Could you leave us with a few just pieces of advice uh beyond what you've already given us, which has been tremendous?

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Sure. So um avoid debt. Debt is a killer, it is a crusher. And I have I just talked to an attorney. Um they went back and borrowed two million dollars in government money shortly after the EIDL program shortly after the pandemic, and they have burned through a million two. And their their debt uh level, I think it's 150 grand in interest you're paying a year. And so it's it's just atrocious what that does. You can never get ahead of that. So you've got to scrim and save, it's all front-loaded. Uh, but the best thing you can do is to be your own line of credit. It's good to have a line of credit because there is a seasonality in the practice. You know, in family law in general, nobody's calling you in late July to mid-August when they're on vacation together. That's okay. They'll come back in September and be pissed at each other, and now they want to talk to you. And then nobody's gonna call you in December because they're all getting warmed up for Christmas. But by golly, after the holidays do not go well, they're gonna be calling you in January. But you got a plan because Christmas is when you like to spend money and probably when you're not gonna make any money, and you've got to balance that out. So you've got to have what uh Dave Ramsey calls a hill and dale fund uh to back you up. And when you've got some money and savings, uh you sleep better at night.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

So that's so true. Uh I've found, you know, in our firm the the most fun we've had is when we were winning, when we were feeling secure, when we had enough cash in the bank. And as debt accumulates, you know, the first thing you have to do is fill that hole. So even if you have great months, you you're still not winning because you're In the hole.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

If you come across an opportunity, which could be a big personal injury case, it's going to take $50 or $75,000 to fund until it settles, or you want to buy a bunch of AI technology, and it takes cash to do that. So save a few dollars back, and you'll be happy you did because then you can jump ahead, you can leapfrog some of your competition.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

100%. Love it. Robert, I so appreciate your time. Uh I appreciate your insights. Obviously, huge congratulations on the growth that you've achieved. And uh leave us with what's the future of the Nice Law

Hiring Attorneys Small Firm: Building a Bench of Talent

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Firm look like.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

Well, I'm I'm invious of you. 30 Lawyers is uh kind of where I'd like to be, and I'm working toward that. Uh and I I watched one of your other podcasts uh before um the show today, and one of the things I said that the barrier to growth at this level is it's not business, it's attorneys. So they're they're hard to come by, and especially in the areas where I'd like them to be geographically. So um that's the challenge we're working on to overcome. We have a recruitment committee and and they're I'm keeping them busy. Good.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

I love it. One one note there that we've had to implement is partnering with the local law schools and hiring law students and graduates as law clerks and building a bench of talent that you can grow within your system over time because it's just too hard to find that unicorn. You know, everybody that we talk to is looking for a great attorney. Yeah, you and the rest of us, you know, brother. And there's just not enough of them out there. I would appreciate you. Have a wonderful rest of your day, and really, really grateful for the time you spent with us.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Really good being with you as well. Thank you so much.