Why Your Law Firm Pricing Model Is Killing Referrals - #208

Law firm pricing model built around conflict billing is costing you more than you think—starting with your referrals.

Mark hit 20 employees and lost his firm's soul. He scaled back, went all in on flat rate divorces, and referrals took over. The law firm pricing model his old boss warned against was the whole game.

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📄 CHAPTERS

0:00 - Law Firm Pricing Model: Why Hourly Billing Was Slowly Killing Mark's Practice 

2:01 - The Flat Rate Divorce Strategy That Completely Flipped His Revenue Model 

12:46 - The Las Vegas Bar Conversation That Changed His Entire Business Trajectory 

14:12 - Why Mark Made $3K While His Friend Made $45K on the Exact Same Trip 

16:06 - How Airport Billboards and Radio Outperformed Every Google Ad in St. Louis 

21:12 - What Happens When You Scale to 20 Employees Without the Right Systems

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Transcript

0:00

A two hour conversation over a beer changed Mark's trajectory of his firm. You have to hear this episode. Welcome back to the Sterling Family Law Show. I am your host, Tyler. I'm also the CEO of our law firm focused marketing agency called Rocket Clicks that was built out of our own law firm, Sterling Lawyers, that has grown to over 27 attorneys. Today we continue our owner Operators series, and we interview Mark, who has an amazing firm in Saint Louis. He built and rebuilt it based on a conversation he had with a mentor of his, Mark, thank you so much for your time today. Really excited to hear your story. Give us a little background on who you are and kind of how you were able to to build your firm. Yeah. So, my name is Mark Haefner. I went to school at, KC in Kansas City. Went there for undergrad, worked for a year, and, as a social worker. After that, I was like, oh, gosh, I want to do something more. So I ended up going back to law school. While I was there, I, I got married while I was in law school, so I got married very young. I was 23 when I got married. And I was in law school and I was 26 when we got divorced. And at that point in time, I've been working for a family law firm and actually went to work at that law firm afterwards. And the one thing I knew that I didn't want to do in my divorce was do exactly how I'm doing it for everybody else. So we did a very quick, very easy, uncontested divorce. And I just, was thinking, well, why are we not doing this for everybody? This just seems like the best way to really push uncontested. We can do it. So I had this, you know, great pitch when I told my boss about it, and he said, we will lose all of our money. So, I didn't last very long there. But it was one of those times where I was working 60 to 80 hours a week. Just killing myself and. And making myself absolutely miserable because my clients were absolutely miserable. So when I started my own firm, I knew I wanted to do things a little bit differently. I did kind of the more traditional retainer thing for a long time. And we still do a lot on retainers in Missouri. You can't have anything over 2000. That's going to be a flat rate. So, but we do really push. And when we can do it, we want to do uncontested dissolutions because they are much faster, much less stress and much less money for the client. And I always had this mindset of I'd rather do ten divorces, and make 10,000 than do one divorce and make 10,000, because those ten people, if we do the job, are going to go out and they're going to tell their friends. And that's exactly what has happened. Now, it did take years to build up, but it was worth it. It's worth it in the end, I think. One, I feel better about what I do, as a family law attorney, you know, those are generally people that get the worst. Worst, opinions of of no law jokes. But the way that we do it, I think, is a really better way to just approach everything. Because when we're done with our cases, they're not done being co-parents. Very, very rarely do we do a case where at the end, when we're done, they never have to see each other again. And those cases. Great, awesome. We make it very smooth. It's trying to make sure that they can continue being co-parents afterwards and really putting a focus on, you know, holistically, what do we want to do. And then also just reminding our clients constantly. I remember when I was in Kansas City, I had a case one time where we were it was a multimillion dollar divorce. We had everything settled. We got down to the vacuum and wife said, you have never touched that thing. I'm taking it. Husband said that was a gift from my mom for the wedding. I'm taking it. Me an opposing counsel, each offered to chip in $200 of our Get your own vacuum. to buy whoever didn't get the vacuum cleaner a brand new one. But, said no. We went to court, did a three day trial. They both spent tens of thousands of dollars more. Both of them ended up with a judgment they weren't happy with. Over a vacuum cleaner, a seven year old vacuum cleaner. It was the craziest thing. But. And that's the thing when people really dig in their heels, you're like, you can't It doesn't matter what it is. So I have a big, you know, is the juice worth the squeeze mentality on you can pay me five grand to go argue this and you might win. Or you could pay them the 5000 they're asking for, and we're done. And then you also have a better relationship with them moving forward, as opposed because not everyone's going to have to go to court and then fight it out. And it's been over three months and uncertainty. So really my my mindset is, kind of the thinking, grow rich mentality, which is never take money unless you can actually improve someone's situation. And then also I would I always tell my, my employees and staff, I, I want to run this firm the way I would want to be treated, who I want to be if I were a client. So we want to make sure that we're not just billing things. That's why we don't have billable hour requirements here. I never want anybody padding or having any incentive to pad their time saying, oh, you know, I drafted this document and it took me three hours, but really, it only took up an hour, a half, really hour and a half. You're not you're not going to get punished. In fact, you probably get punished if you took an hour and a half and you built three hours work. So I really wanted to remove that incentive for, for people as well. That's great. no billable hour requirements. It's just work requirement. I just want to see what you did during your day. And do the right thing. Well, and also by having them track everything that they do I can see where are we lacking. Do I need another paralegal. Do I need another attorney. It helps me see those gaps where I'm saying like for example, just recently me and my associate attorney, were doing all of these, we call can't PNC calls, potential new client calls, and people just basically screening calls to see if we'd be a good fit. I mean, we're talking probably three hour, 3 or 4 hours a week each on these 30 minute phone calls. We recently switched that over to having someone else do them, freeing up all that time. And then now that it it's my my paralegal. And now she's saying like I'm having a struggle getting my work done. I'm like, you know what? I'm going to hire someone, trained them specifically to do just this job, and we'll get in and we'll figure that out because it's really just trying to see, okay, where are we wasting our day or where can we be more efficient with our day? And then also, how can we enjoy our day more? Because I know nobody like having a stop working on a document to do a 30 minute phone call, then go back to it for 30 minutes, then do another phone call. So We talk about it all the time. We call it context switching. And it is the biggest or the most inefficient thing you can do as a human. Because we are kind of built to do to to focus and do single tasks at a time. And if you continually switch contexts, you're having to like ramp back up, like, okay, now I'm in an interview mode and then I have to go into whatever document creation mode and all that stuff takes time. And if you can create some repetition or batch things out, there's so many efficiencies to be absolutely, I'm a big fan. The way that I do everything is block scheduling. So I'm a I'm a big fan of it. Not everybody loves it. And I let everyone kind of however you want to work. And so long as it's getting done, I'm okay with it. But I'm a big, big believer of. Yeah, I'll be drafting for the next three hours. My door is locked, my phone's on. Do not disturb. I'm in that mode. Because I it's it does take a long time for me to get back into it or go. Wait, what? What was I even thinking about? What was my. I've got, you know, 20 paragraphs done of what needs to be 30 paragraphs. And I can't remember where I was going with that. The flow is gone more or less takes a long time. Mark, I want to, I want to venture back into how this all started. You know, you mentioned you were working at another firm and you brought this idea, and he's like, now that's, you know, where that'll cost us our money. Was that the moment you're like, fine, I'm going to go figure this out and start my own firm? Or like, what was the moment in which you wanted to branch out? I think that was probably about when I said, you know, because the whole time I was thinking, you know, 20 years ago, the whole thing was you get a job, you work really hard, you might be someone's partner some day, you come in and you slowly take over as they retire out. And I think that was the first time I thought, well, I don't even know if I want to be a part of something that just encourages conflict. So that's where I was. That's the probably the first I was thinking instead of just working my way through it, just starting my own. Because in theory, he's absolutely right. We do make our money through conflict. And if someone wants to spend ten grand over a vacuum cleaner, I should be cheering them on and saying, we're getting that vacuum cleaner. Not going. This is dumb. Because it's costing the firm that money. So, you know, the old mentality. He was absolutely right. That is how you should do it. I just don't think that's where the future is now. And I didn't think that's where I wanted to spend my life. Fighting over vacuum And get you for making that decision? that's just where I thought. And I was like, this is not going to. I'm not going to be built. I'm not going to last. If that's where we're going. Good for you. So take me back to that first year, right. I love this part of a lot of origin stories is like, okay, I've made the decision to be an entrepreneur and also a lawyer, and I didn't learn a lot about business in law school. And now I have to learn on the fly. What did your story go that way, or how was the. when I went on there, oddly enough, the law firm I went to, he was he was very religious, and we were a family law firm, but we didn't do divorces. And I was kind of. I convinced him, let me. Let me do the divorces. You don't need to touch them. But that year, he had record breaking money. Because it turns out that's what most of family law is, that he was not doing. And everything was great. I mean, he was loving it. I was working like crazy. And then he got his tax bill that he had never paid quarterly taxes on before. And he's like, oh my God, I can't afford. So he came in, laid off half the staff writing was on the wall. And I said, hey, how about this? Instead of give me a severance package? Because I know, because he I mean, he was freaking out. He's like, I can't afford payroll. I said, instead of a severance package or anything like that, just give me an office for three months for free and let me take my divorce clients with me because you don't want to do them. And he's like, that's fine. So then I was like, okay, great. And then I left and I thought, I don't have all. Now, what? yeah, it took about a week and I'm like, okay, I need to go get a cell phone because it was a firm cell phone. I need to get a phone number. I need to get all these things and just all those little things and then and then think, I need an I to account. And then, how are we gonna do it? Luckily, my my parents are small business owners. They were they were owned greenhouses. So I was able to ask them about little things I didn't have, like payroll to worry about a whole lot in the beginning. But it was definitely, a very weird first few months because it was fly by pants trying to create a website, and I had the most horrible website in the world. This I thought so too. I've seen someone some other people have. Mine was at least, you know, a couple pages and had decent information on it, but it was just not user friendly. But just all those things that you don't think about and then things that how to market, that was not something I had ever had to do or think about before. And I had zero almost, you know, almost nothing. Save like I said, I'd gotten my divorce was done. I want to say like a week before he realized he owed taxes. So I had all of it was gone. You know, we got the house listed for sale. This is, of course, was happening right in 2006 when the housing market fell out. So the house was listed for sale for for two years, I think, before that sold and I ended up having to take on a roommate, which I swore I would never do again. Test it just to be like I got to cover the utilities and stuff like that. It was a it was, a lot to learn. And like I said, I think I, of every ten things I tried, seven of them failed horribly. Just dumpster fire mistakes. But every now and then I would get one. Right. I remember from marketing, I had a lot of friends that worked in bars and restaurants or banks, and I went out and I ordered like 500 pens and I would just, would leave the pens around. But the big transition where we, I think we really turned the corner. I was in Las Vegas with a friend of mine, and he was watching me just work the entire trip, and he. And he's very successful. And, we were at a bar, and I said, well, how's business go? And he's like, do you really want to know? I'm like, how? Sure? I'm like, I'm just trying to make concentration. And he's like, well, your business sucks. And then he laid out over the next 2.5 hours everything he saw me doing wrong just passively as we were on vacation. And I came home and told my wife, you know, I sat down. I mean, I took it very seriously. Like I said, he's crazy successful. And I took my wife came home and I since been remarried and said, well, I'm going to try something. I think you're going to go bankrupt or it's going to be great. I honestly have no idea which direction it's going to go. And that's where we came up with the flat rate divorces.com. And I just was like, I'm going all in on this. It's going to take me years to build up to where I have the volume that I need to to make what I, what I was making. Then I'm like, but I think when we do it, it's going to be a better system. It's going to be much more marketable, Hasn't changed. and then jumped right into that. So yeah, So that's our conversation at a bar. Change your life. absolutely. That was that was the turning point for me because he's like, you know, how much money did you make while you're here? And I'm like, well, gosh, I skipped when you guys went and race cars. I did not go skydiving with you guys. I'm probably made about three grand. Here he goes. I made over $45,000 while I've been here. And I went and race cars. I went skydiving because the thing is, is you don't have a staff or you don't. You don't make money when you're not here. And everything you do is based on your time, not on your volume or the production. He's like, you got to figure out a way around that first and foremost. And then you got to get a staff that's going to work when you're not there. So you can go do these things where there is still money being made. And he was here on, on, orthodontic practices, but he's just like, he's like, I'm not bragging. I'm just trying to tell you, I see you killing yourself, and you're going to put yourself in an early grave if you don't figure this out. What a what a what an amazing, like, moment in time. Now, do you still, are you still friends with this guy? Have you told me your job, hobbies? We go all the time. In fact, him, and some of our other friends all had small businesses. And even when I lived in Saint Louis, I would drive to Kansas City once a month. This was pre pre-COVID. And we would do mastermind meetings and I would, I would drive there, have a mastermind meeting, might hang out for the night because, you know, we are all friends and I get the next day driving back and it was great. Covid kind of envy because three of them moved away. So it's just me and one other guy, and he's there's only one left in Kansas City. But absolutely no, he changed my life. And then meeting those other people, and they're all from not only half law firms. They're all from different areas of of business. And getting those perspectives were so much better. And I mean, I've gone to all the lawyer marketing seminars and things like that. And sometimes, you know, you talk to someone who does on the plumbing business and they've got a much better idea on how to market than any of the lawyers around town. And my big thing is, I also don't want to do what everybody else is doing. You know, there's a lot of pie guys that have billboards around town. I was like, there's no famous law firms that did it. So I put one up and then now that everyone's doing that, one of the things I'm known for in Saint Louis is if you. I was coming back from a trip, we went to Disneyworld, and I'm sitting in the baggage claim area in the southwest terminal, and I'm watching 4 or 5 families fight, and I thought I got to get an ad down here. So now when you come down the escalators, there's a giant lit up billboard of me that just says, happy to be home. And I get so many clients from that. So. Yeah, it's it's half this job is really to figure out how to do good marketing and then make sure that the product you're delivering is quality. So you got the word of mouth afterwards. Family law is unlike other practice areas. Your callers are not shopping for a service. They're looking for someone who makes them feel safe enough to share. The worst thing happening in their life. The firm that hears them first wins every time. And that's what changed everything at Sterling. We eventually built that system into four actionable steps on this free training. Mary Sankey, who leads our sales team, is going to break down the entire four step sales system. She is sterling sales manager. She's the one who runs it every single day. So go ahead and register below for the sales secrets of an $18 million family law firm. I'll see you there. So we've done a lot of these interviews, and I usually ask the same question, like, what are 1 or 2 things that have really changed your practice and overwhelmingly the the number one response is ask for help, like get a mentor and put this on a before. And obviously you did that. But I think something else you said, which is kind of going against the grain a little bit like look for opportunities outside of family law that are successful, like the Billboard idea or the airport idea, and implement, test to gather data and, and carry on. Yeah. I mean, like I said, seven out of ten of my ideas do fail miserably. But those three that stick, they really make a difference. And look outside. What, you don't want to do, what everyone's doing. You don't want to compete, for the same Google AdWords or back in the day. You see, you know, the yellow yellow page ads is what everyone talked about. And you flip through on a turning home page that you couldn't tell one from the from one from the other. But, well, you must be successful if you've got a full page yellow page. And, I just thought, well, I don't want to ever get lost in the Yellow Pages. I don't want to do what everybody else is doing. I want to do something different. And I've done radio commercials. I did a radio show for a little bit. I do once a month, I go on TV and talk talk about, you know, what are we suggesting? You know, November, I'm like, hey, here's ideas for Christmas and get with the other person to figure out how to communicate with your child when they're over at the other person's house. Make sure you guys aren't duplicating presents. Or in fact, you are duplicating presents if that's what you need to be doing. And just figure out a better way, you know, a little monthly advice to just how to get along better and how to do things right. And, you know, if you have summer camps, make sure the other parents listed on the pick up list. Otherwise, that's going to be a call at 5:00 that your attorney might not answer. It's great. Like, I sell tips and tricks. So yeah, just little things where I'm like, get the holidays worked out before the holidays here. Don't start thinking about Christmas on December 20th, because we're not going to be able to get it worked Smart. Love that. All right, Mark, so you you left the firm, you started your own firm in the office, and, you had no employees and were figuring things out. At what point, you know, you have this meeting with your friend, and he inspires you to go all in. How long did it take for you to really gain traction and make a couple impactful hires after that kind of meeting at the bar? I think what I did after that is I got really deep in the research part of things. I started tracking every single day's numbers. What was going out, what was going in. I started reading all of the books on how to market, how to do things right. I that was when I got back from that trip. That was a turnaround. And my wife was, pregnant with my son at the time. So it was he's 12 now. So. And then I got back and then I probably spent a good 5 or 6 months just planning, just keep what I was doing before, but just planning, planning, planning, planning. And then I was like, okay, we're getting ready to pull the trigger. We were going all in on it and that's what we did. And then I got my numbers right to where I'm doing my daily tracking. So I've got I figured out what key parts, you know, tracking my time and seeing what I did and where I needed help. First thing I was like, I need a receptionist. And a paralegal that can help me draft the simplest of motions. You know, I don't want to spend 20 minutes on an interim appearance. That's a form, more or less. You just change a couple names. Anybody can do that. And then also building out those forms for the person to be able to do it. So I would probably say first 5 or 6 months, just almost pure planning and getting really deep into it and going, okay, we gotta, we gotta do this better. Then I started hiring on people and then I got too big for a while or for a while. We had, over 20 employees, and I was spending all my time managing and none of my time reviewing to make sure everything was quality. And I thought our quality and dropped. And I thought that we're going, we're going the wrong direction here. I was making more, you know, you had a big firm, but it was the quality was not where I wanted it to be. So what I did is just kind of trimmed everything back, almost went back to basics and said, I took my eye off the ball on the quality portion of it, which needs to be on the forefront. But by spending all my time dealing with the management stuff and that that interoffice drama or, you know, got to hire the new cleaning company and all this stuff. So like, we even switched buildings because I'm like, I just want all of it included. So I'm not having to worry about calling about when the internet goes down or the cleaning guy forgot to do xyzzy, I guess somebody else's problem. So needs to be on my plate and what needs to be on others is a big part of it. huge, and it's almost like transforming, you know, you've had to change as a leader. And now as the owner of this firm and multiple attorneys and multiple employees, you've had to evolve your management practice, right? From being a leader to being an individual contributor. And and I will be the first to tell you I'm not good at it. I am not good at management. I'm good, I think at mentoring. I think I'm a pretty decent attorney. I think I do okay with marketing, but when it comes down to, you know, hey, I'm trying to manage and track all of the days off or sick days, but somebody who I'm just like, I hate this. I don't want to do this. So I that was one. I have a fantastic office manager now. She loves doing that stuff. My great. Here you go. Hire for your weaknesses right. Exactly. And yeah, the management for a long time I was like, I don't want this either. This is not not the direction I want to go. So it's a matter of finding out what really you are good at, what you want to do, and how you can really deliver value. And me looking at trying to track sick days was not the best use You know, it's, and not a profitable use, at all. So, you're here. You've spent 12 years since that kind of impactful moment. What is the future of your firm look like? What are you focused on today? Right now, we believe we've hired, we had six associate attorneys at one time. We're down to two. I had one quit. Our one, one was let go, and the other one quit immediately because they said that they want to take on an extra any of the extra cases. And I'm like, oh, God. So we went from 4 to 2 overnight. And then we I was like, I'm just going to keep it small. I'm going to keep it real, real small, real, real manageable. We just hired another attorney, and my new thing that I'm looking into is trying to figure out how I can do. Because what I do now is I practice in four counties in Missouri. I am looking into going statewide with the uncontested, uncontested situations. And I finally figured out, I think, on how to do that, where people can do it without having to come in to even sign documents or anything else like that, where you're going to drive all the way here to see me or me drive all the way out there to see you. And I think that's where my next big move might be going, is going in that direction. But I also want to focus. I recently had, heart surgery and, an aneurysm on my heart, so I'm like, I don't what what am I doing here? What's the thing that I really enjoy my work? I do a lot of Guardian line of work, and I do a lot of mediation. When I thought I would kind of focus a lot on that and then focus more on the uncontested. And even though I think I'm pretty good at the contest, divorces and go and arguing and knowing all of the things I, I just it doesn't bring me joy. So I'm just like, you know what? I'm going to hire someone who this is, this is what they want to do. And that used to be me. And I'm going to focus on the things that I want to do. So I, like guardian ad litem work, mediations resolving and the uncontested. I just saying let's get it done. And then passing off the contest, it's the people who. This is what they want to do. You know, I, I for a long time I loved being in court. Was love being there every day now I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I got to do this. You know, do it. The traffic and go through all that thing. But yeah, but so I'm, I'm again just kind of reshaping and focusing on where I can make the most impact. And I think living statewide is the next big thing for business. And I think focusing on the uncontested and my guardian ad litem work and my mediation work, is going to be the best personal change for me. awesome. I what I hear you saying is that you, by being an entrepreneur, you get to decide, you know what you want your business to be and to build that business according to that plan. And and just because you did it some way five years ago doesn't mean that you can't change it for the next five years. Absolutely. I mean, we've had tremendous success, and I bill higher than anybody else in the firm. I just don't like it. So I'm like, I'm going to switch it. And, you know, what's the economic impact on doing that? And how do I phase this out? I mean, you can't just do a Band-Aid and call your clients, be like, yeah, never mind about. Yeah. You got to kind of phase it out and have a good plan in place. But yeah. So if you don't like the direction that it's going, one of the best parts about owning your own firm is you can change. You get to make that change. You don't have to quit your job. You don't have to go looking for anything else. You can say, we're going to make the change. And one of the things that I really cannot stress enough, and this is one I got from from my mastermind groups, is figure out why you're pulling wants to leave and then make it so they don't want to leave. So I'm constantly trying to do, things that make things better. Like for example, we're trying something out this summer. We're doing, summer hours. We're on Fridays, we close at three, and we're just like everyone got. If you don't either have kids or you don't want to be here

at 5: 27:05

00 on a Friday over the summer, let's just do it. So. So for June through August, we're going to be closing Fridays at three. And it's been great. And you would think that I gave everyone, thousands of dollars in Although while like, sometimes the smallest things like that can make the biggest difference. And the kicker is I'm usually here till still 6 or 7, but every, every other now and every now and then I'm like, yeah, I'm leaving here at three. And I thought, well, it's not really fair that I get to leave at three and I'll make them, I'll stick around. Although the Friday before I was there 2 or 3 hours later, that's the other thing that you don't want to do is start comparing yourself to others in your firm. You're not in the same position, that you're not in the same role that day, and you do not have the same job they do. So sometimes you're going to have to stay late to make sure the light bill can get paid at the same point. You can't get angry about it because when the firm does make a bunch of money, you're the one that gets to keep it. So Sound advice. that was the thing I know for a while I was like, how come at 505, I'm the only person in this building because I'm the only one that still made money after 5 or 5 or whether I, you know, one or the other. And so we're also looking into trying to figure out bonuses and things like that. It's hard to do when you have no billable hour requirement on how we can bonus properly and fairly across Yeah, right. Finding the right incentives. That's really good, Mark, I love it. I love your passion. I love your appetite for risk and your willingness to to to to change things if it's not working out. I think that that's, a quality that's necessary for a successful firm and for our, listeners who are thinking about starting their own firm. Know that, like, you know, we talked to a lot of very successful off homeowners, but it never starts that way. It's always years of building and refining and testing and failing before you actually get to that point. Yeah. Completely. Completely. I mean, there's there is if you find that you're making a bunch of money right off the bat, I'd almost be worried about that. You got to build it, and you got to build it so that what you're not. And the other thing I would say is, if you recognize a problem, correct it as soon as you can, even if there is a financial hit, even if it does slow down progress because you do not want to have, like I did when I had 20 plus employees and I somehow became a manager instead of a lawyer. So if you see something go in the wrong direction, fix it sooner than later Well, so. it gets so much worse later. With 100% agree, Mark, I really appreciate your time today. I appreciate your insights. I'm excited to share this episode, with our listeners and look forward to talking to you soon.