Ep. 49 - Finding Safety and Stabilization in Emotional Regulation with Amelia Bradaric

Grief isn’t just something you “get over”—it can transform your life, your identity, and your relationships in ways you never imagined. In this powerful episode, we dive into the real journey of healing after loss with expert grief and trauma counselor Amelia Bradaric. Listen as Amelia shares how adventuring through loss—literally and emotionally—helped her move from numbness and dissociation to authentic presence and growth.

Host Kathy Washburn and Amelia unpack what emotional regulation really means, why dissociation might be necessary at first, and how grief can create ripple effects of “secondary losses” from identity to friendships to homes. Together, they explore practical, accessible strategies for navigating emotional turmoil—including grounding in the senses, embracing nature, and learning to honor both heaviness and small joys as you pendulate between pain and possibility.

Whether you’re grieving, supporting someone through loss, or simply facing a time of deep personal change, this episode offers validation, hope, and concrete tools for building resilience. Discover why seeking help is an act of self-investment, how to support others without trying to fix them, and how to find your own adventure in healing—even when the landscape is nothing like you expected.

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Transcript

Ep. 49 - Finding Safety and Stabilization in Emotional Regulation with Amelia Bradaric

[00:00:00] In today's podcast, we adventure through the topics of emotional regulation, grief, and loss, and self care with my dear friend and colleague. Amelia Brad Rich Amelia's wisdom comes from her life experience as well as her extensive training as a grief and trauma counselor where she practices in Vancouver, Canada.

We work together on a course called Anchored Hope, which I believe we all need in these moments, of dysregulation as well as the whirling dervish world. We are part of. May this podcast be a catalyst for you to become the better version of you just bursting to step forward? [00:01:00] 

Introduction and Warm Welcome

Kathy Washburn: Welcome, Amelia. Brad, rich. I am as always, delighted to be in your presence and even more so now.

I think our first podcast is. The most popular podcast on my podcast, and I think we're at number 46. Isn't that amazing? And you have amazing guests, so I do have some amazing guests, but you, my friend are right up there. And you and I love to share this story, Matt when we were both kind of running away from life and had the privilege of running away to New [00:02:00] Zealand, which just not for anything, the place is just magical.

Like you're on a different planet for so many different reasons. And since then we have grown together and supported one another. And you have this amazing practice called Adventuring Loss. 

The Origin of Adventuring Loss

Kathy Washburn: I want you, I wanna start there. Where does adventuring loss that company name come from? Well, actually I think I mean, I can't be clear on the exact moment that I thought of that name, but it was likely around New Zealand time.

But I was so fortunate to grow up in Vancouver, British Columbia, where we have mountains and trees and ocean and tons of opportunity for adventure. And it's sort of the way that I approached everything in life. So not just the fact that I was able to sail and ski in the same day, but [00:03:00] also that life was an exploration, including the pitfalls, the challenges, the difficulties and everything in between.

And so, when I lost my husband to almost 10 years ago, and just a year, 14 months later, I met you in New Zealand, it was. That's what I was doing. I was adventuring my way through loss, not just in practice, but in emotionally. So that's sort of how it came about. I just got the chills. The ability to just transfer that energy of tumult, for lack of a better word.

It's so much more than tumult, but to channel it, to go somewhere with it and shake it up a little and be in a different environment is that we're gonna talk more about [00:04:00] emotional regulation and and disassociation, but do you think it's a form of disassociation or is it more healing? I mean, I was certainly dissociated when I met you.

And I was for years you know, for I would say a solid three years, I can actually sort of pinpoint around the time that I started coming outta that place. And started really being faced with the reality of what I had experienced and it, I wasn't as numb anymore. But I don't know.

I'm sure it was a combination of some level of fortitude, like just facing myself, like really needing to face, trying to face what was happening. But then also the you know, I'm so grateful for dissociation because it gave me that buffer. You know, and I guess we'll talk more about that, but it gave me some level of numbness where I was able to say like, oh, I'm gonna book the one way ticket to Australia, New Zealand, or wherever.

And not [00:05:00] feel super fearful about that or concerned at all. Like, I just was like yeah. So it helped. Yeah, definitely. Now you are a grief and trauma counselor in Vancouver, and Adventuring Loss has now has many grief and trauma counselors on staff. Can you explain emotional regulation in simple terms and why it's so important?

Yeah. I mean, it's important because we are more able to readily receive information and be present when we're emotionally regulated. 

And I don't know how to explain it in simple terms other than we wanna be able to. Tolerate what's in front of us and also be able to stay engaged. So we're more present in life.

We're mindful or more receptive to the [00:06:00] people around us and to ourselves. And so, that's the place we wanna be. And when you're dissociated or when you're, you know, very anxious or when you're in that hyper arousal state, sort of the opposite of dissociation it's difficult to do that. Right? It's difficult to sit here with you and say like, well man, I'm cute with you, Kathy.

And so, having that buffer as I sort of were, that, you know, as I sort of described it earlier, prevents you from being fully engaged. And so we just wanna stay as fully engaged as possible in life. you're reminding me. I think it's, mark bracket in his book, permission to Feel. He said, given the exact same facts and circumstance, if you are emotionally dysregulated, you'll come to a completely different result or conclusion than if you are emotionally regulated.

Yes. And it makes so much [00:07:00] sense. You know, it's one of those in hindsight, you're, you think, God, did I really do that? Did I really say that? 

So then there's this added element of shame, blame and recrimination that is on top of the dysregulation and emotional unawareness. Yeah. I can think of many times where that dissociation in those early years really got in the way of me being able to connect with someone or being able to ask the question or.

Really being able to step into relationship in the way that I would have previously, or certainly the way that I would now. there's a lot of, there can be a lot of shame around that. And I'm almost being your fault, you know, you don't have to be yourself. Yeah. And it almost prevents us from getting the help we need.

Yeah. Damn. 

Amelia Bradaric: Yeah. 

Kathy Washburn: I remember I remember the moment, you know, you go on these things and we were both in this group [00:08:00] that both of us signed up for by some other power than ourselves. I still don't know how I got there. We got assigned, we were roommates just randomly. You and I didn't know each other from a hole in the wall.

And I remember seeing you and you just had so much vibrancy and I was like, gosh, what does this girl have that I don't have? I want a little, I want what she's having. And I think it took a couple of days. And I remember we were in I think we were in the little brown house, middle brown, then we called it the middle brown.

It was this, a-frame, just stunning again, magical little house. 

The Power of Sharing Stories

Kathy Washburn: And you shared with me your husband's obituary and you started to share the story. And I was like, holy bananas. This young woman has been through more trauma and tragedy than I can. [00:09:00] Ever imagine in a lifetime and you were holding your shit together Like before That moment I was like, what is happening?

And then our hikes just got so deep we were sharing all kinds of stuff as we trumped through the woods of New Zealand. Do you remember that, that opening, that little door? I remember. 'cause I remember the, I think I still have it, the little holder that I had pa I had packed his obituary, like a laminated piece of his obituary around of me in like two Australia, New Zealand.

And and it also had his picture on the, or we, one of our, like a photo, I think maybe it was our wedding photo, but a photo of Boston, like the background of my phone. And I like now in retrospect, it's so interesting. I mean, I understand why I would do that. Of course, I think I using more in my wedding ring still.

And it's interesting to me because I look back at that and I think, like, I wasn't really like worried about people asking me questions. So the fact that [00:10:00] like this, like obituary fell open and I was just like, let me tell you what the last 14 like months have been like for me. I mean, I obviously trusted you enough.

And yeah, I remember how that really unfolded. You sharing your story and you know, when we share stories that can be really powerful. You know, there's so much depth from that and connectedness. And it started to weave this beautiful tapestry that has been a friendship and partnership in so many different ways.

I love this idea of sharing the story, like giving it air. 

Techniques for Emotional Regulation

Kathy Washburn: What are some other common techniques or strategies that individuals can use to access that emotional regulation? 'cause clearly I remember feeling that. Heavy and lightness at the same moment when we really opened up to one another, there was this lightness in like, thank you for letting me give that air.

And no judgment, no, [00:11:00] no judgment, just a holding of another human because we didn't know each other. There was no asking stupid questions. What people do and they don't even realize it, you know? I know. I think that's part of it, right? I mean, I love your, when you describe ground crew and copilots, and I use this with my clients all the time, by the way.

So if you have worked with me and you've heard about ground crew copilots, this is for credit to this. And I've adapted it a little bit to, to, oh, I hope you have. Yeah. For grief. But I think that's part of it, right? Like when we're able to be in connection with somebody who like, okay, well I never see this.

Woman, a guy, right? You know, there's space for that. There's this copilot who doesn't know you in the before, and you only knew me in that moment, in this incredible environment. And which helps, I mean, nature, the exploration, the adventure of it all [00:12:00] can be so regulating on its own. So there, there's so many, like all of our senses are involved in that.

And so, and you can incorporate like someone who's solid in front of you, plus nature, plus you know, X, Y, and z Plus also on that trip, which I love so much, we didn't really have to think about anything except for doing the hike or doing the thing in front of us. So the simplicity in that. I didn't have to about what I was going to eat later, you know?

Now I think about my made for dish. I've always been thinking about 10 steps ahead. Now they're in those moments like it was being present. It was just about being present. And only thing that I was there to do was to just be away from an active homicide investigation and also just like, be as present as possible to like, tend to myself and then to you in those [00:13:00] moments.

So the simplicity in that alone can support regulation in my opinion, in nature and all the other things. Yeah. So I hear this almost like tapping into the senses as a way of. Getting out of our thoughts. You know, we tend to just spin, get into these spin cycles of whatever's happening and, you know, we're such beautiful time travelers.

We can get ourselves jacked into the past or propel ourselves into the scary future. But it's feelings, it's that sense, those senses that bring us back in this moment. And that adventuring in nature is just forcing it. It's you're feeling your feet on the ground if you're in a difficult hike where you and I both realize, like, oh, I see we can do an easy hike or we can do a hard hike.

But there are a couple of hard hikes that I did that I remember. The only thing I could focus on was the person's shoes [00:14:00] in front of me. 'cause if I looked up, I was gonna quit. Or when I was walking across that crazy, terrible bridge over the water with that creaky little thing and you're on the other side singing, take me to church.

And so I'm listening to you, I'm just looking at the boards in front of me. It is that pulling back into your own body and connecting with your senses can help us regulate our emotions in the moment. 'cause it pulls us out of our head Totally. And teaching ourselves that we can go from something hard to something easeful.

So even us talking about the hard things in Middle Brown and sitting there with Iggy's obituary and you know, me telling you this story and then stepping out of middle brown and then going into nature and being like, oh, and then. Going on a hard [00:15:00] height it pendulate you. So it start, you start teaching yourself through those really especially challenging pines that you can actually modulate yourself from one place to another without having to go to these extremes where I have to like stay in this place of challenge or everything's glorious and that we can actually vote that, that and the magnificence of the ampersand.

Yes. I invite people some of my clients to actually find a place in their house. And this comes from an old friend of mine, I was so impressed. She had a golden retriever and she would say I can't remember what the dog's name was. It might have been Rudy. Rudy, go to your rug. And that dog would fly from anywhere it was and like sit on the rug like.

Just sit there and stay there until he was invited off. And I had a golden retriever at the time. Bailey not so trained and I [00:16:00] kept trying to get her to go to the rug. So now I invite clients to find a rug or a chair and just set their timer to worry. Yeah. And feel what it feels like in their body. Yeah, it's shitty right now.

You're, you just got, you have a scan next week and you feel bump, you know, in your breasts and you've already had cancer. So of course your mind's going to wanna travel all kinds of places. But give yourself the opportunity to just feel what you're feeling. Name it, notice what's happening in your body.

And when the timer goes off slowly with so much compassion and intention, get up and go sit somewhere else. Just set your timer for 90 seconds and notice what's going good in this moment, and if all you can come up with is my fingers move. Yeah. My lungs inflate, the sun's shining. [00:17:00] I remember in those early days and months for me that I would have to find, it wasn't about like waiting a gratitude journal or you know, it wasn't about just like being in gratitude all the time, but I had to find something in the moment that just like, okay, this is gonna soothe me for this moment.

Whether it be like my coffee or nice day out today. I am gonna go for a walk, or whatever It was that it simplified things so much and so I refer to that often when life's getting nutty, which it does, you know, maybe now more than ever, it's coming back to those basics and whether you're, you know, at the rug.

Like you know, feeling your feelings and you come out of that place and you can say like, okay and this and coffee and the sunshine and stay in that for a little while can really just support that titration, that pendulation, [00:18:00] that, that can be so helpful. I love this idea of this pendulum and a lot of times clients come to me and they really spin in on one side of it.

How do you help someone identify that? That's actually what's happening is that they're struggling with emotional regulation, especially in the grieving process when they've lost. And right now I feel like life is just full of these losses. You know, especially this. Transition. You live in Vancouver and you have a room for me, so I might be moving there, but there's this constant feeling that we're gonna lose, you know, lose our freedom or lose our social security or lose, like even those things.

It can feel traumatic. How do you help people identify it? I think, well, I mean a few ways, very slowly. 

So that's first [00:19:00] my patience for this, not for everything, but for my clients, for grief, for trauma is endless because it needs to be, because it's a practice of endurance. It's not just like recognizing and fixing.

It's the exploration, it's the adventure of it, if you will. Like, it's the identifying what's working, what's not working. Education is really helpful. So, you know, talking to 'em about dissociation, what's happening to you is normal. I wish that I would've known what was physi like happening for me physiologically way sooner than I did.

So education, and really for my clients who have experienced traumatic grief or complicated grief identifying the difference between grief and trauma. So grief on its own isn't necessarily something that you'll get over. You're gonna miss your person. You'll some griefs, you will, but not [00:20:00] always, and that's okay.

Being in that place is okay, and you don't have to live with the trauma symptoms forever. The dissociation, the hyper arousal, the flashbacks, the, you know, insomnia, the, all the symptoms that come with trauma. that can feel like a relief to clients because it's saying like, Hey, well I don't have to just like, let go of my person.

Get over it. 

But I also don't have to live this way where this overwhelm taking over all the time. education's really important and just slow just identifying it really slowly instead of being like you're spiraling right now. So, I wanna pull you out of this because trauma is too much, too fast, too soon.

It's something that happens that overwhelms our ability to cope. And so if we try to get out of that place too much, too fast, too soon, then what's gonna happen? 

You know, we're gonna stay in that chronic place at Will a while. So the patience that I had with myself, and I think there was like an innate knowing early for me that [00:21:00] this was something I was going to endure for the rest of my life.

I don't I knew it wasn't something I was gonna get over. That was actually really helpful. I know people wanna say like, you'll be fine. You'll find someone else. Like, you know, and it's so, lax complexity and nuance, you know. So true. I were you the one that introduced me to secondary grief?

Is there such a thing as secondary losses? Secondary losses? What? Can you explain that? Yeah. So I mean, I can speak to my own experience with primary loss being of course my husband. And alongside that I lost friends who could be, cope with my experience or, you know, for varying degrees. For whatever reason, we're no longer friends.

Our home, my job, our businesses we own two businesses together so that like it. There's all these other losses that come. And [00:22:00] I'll be honest, like even my home, I didn't consider it really a secondary loss until Covid hit. And I live in an apartment in Vancouver and I had a HA house before and it just was, I miss my house.

And there was just this like, kind of like that, like it wasn't huge, but like these waves that would come up being like, that was a loss. I lost that too. And sometimes secondary losses come years and years later when it's just like the mis you're the future. There's so many variables. You know, watching many clients who watched their children without a parent or without, you know, it's so challenging.

There's, you know, so the secondary loss at a wedding or in really small moments, just their child achieves something. There's these other. Griefs that are sort of secondary to this significant loss. [00:23:00] I identity is a huge one. You lose, you change so drastically that losing parts of yourself and figuring out, okay, well who have I become in this?

And who, how have I been revealed? What old parts of me had been revealed? 'cause that's very common. And then what do I do without that is a loss, it's a job. It's it's a lot of work to really figure out who you're gonna be in the world after experiencing, you know, overwhelming loss, specifically all types of trauma.

I remember so vividly when you shared that idea of secondary loss. I think it was when I, you and I were, we were creating this course that people can access called Anchored hope. Anchoring hope. Anchored hope. Yeah. We'll have put a link to it, but I was really struggling with this idea of not having that [00:24:00] life that I had envisioned with my sons when they have children.

And I've let go of this cabin, which was a very family centered place for my sons definitely. And for me, it was a place I found great happiness and simplicity and our familial relationship. And I let that go. In my divorce, but years later, all of a sudden I was kind of pining for this because I was looking at videos of my sons at the cabin and forecasting, gosh, that's Where're gonna, that's where gonna, they're gonna bring my grandchildren.

That's where they're gonna go. And I'm not there. And nor do I wanna go there with my ex-husband has recreated his life there with somebody new and you giving me permission to grieve that. Like, okay, it's normal. [00:25:00] It's not, I mean, oh, not, it's not okay, but it's normal to, to still grieve that. 

Coping with Change and Loss

Kathy Washburn: And I think so many people when they go through change, when they you know, I usually meet clients when their house of cards are starting to fall.

There's one that has just been shifted outta place and. Their others directed identity their full on giving. Maybe it's their ki they've poured themselves into their children or their spouse and tried to be everything for everybody. And all of a sudden their kids move out and there's this gaping hole and they realize, oh, who am I without my children to completely focus on?

It's often that moment of I need to make some changes, but making changes is really scary. Yeah. Yeah. Because if I, you know, I [00:26:00] had one client recently who came to me with this kind of house of cards. Her kids were a year out of the house. She was an empty nester. She, her full-time job for the last 20 years has been a mom and the CEO of her house.

And that has allowed her to really concentrate on that and ignore the lack of intimacy in her partnership or her marriage. And she said one day I think I need to get a divorce. Like there's nothing here. But it terrified her. Like all of the loss that would come from that. 

Amelia Bradaric: Yeah. 

Kathy Washburn: That's how do we help people cope with change even in that, that change that we know is good for us and the unknown.

Is scarier than the known. So, you know, two weeks later she's like, no, [00:27:00] I'm not gonna get a divorce. Yeah, nevermind. Just kidding. I, with that client, I would wonder, you know, what's the grief in staying? Ooh, you lose when you stay. And that's not to promote the divorce, of course, without knowing the context.

But there's, when you make a big change or especially a change that you're choosing, which is like, it's a totally different thing. 'cause now you're like, oh my God, like I'm choosing this, like I'm responsible for this. It's saying like, well, there's grief in, in the staying. There's grief in keeping things the same way.

Then there's grief in making the change and everything in between. it's the exploration of both of those things and what's between all of that and saying, okay, well. There's loss here too. What are you losing when you say, I love this exploration, this invitation to adventure into [00:28:00] change, to really look at it like it's gonna be a sucky, like it's gonna be hard hiking up that mountain.

It's not gonna be easy. You showed me, we were driving to Whistler one day and you showed me this mountain that your partner Leo, like, ran up these steps, like ran up them 10 

Amelia Bradaric: times. You did it 10 times 

Kathy Washburn: And how far is it? Like, and how, I can't remember. I don't know actually the distance, but it's just like this, it's basically like nature's StairMaster.

It's straight up. And he did like a charity thing. It was like for kids with cancer and and yeah, just, but he actually didn't run up. He slowly. Paced himself out. So he found he was gonna do it as many times as possible. And so he, one step, one step, which is very atypical Leo fashion. One step. One step, but upwards, you know?

And [00:29:00] there's, yeah, there's so much value in that. And like, you're still moving, you're still going mountain, and it's giving you space to look around and not hurry perhaps. Yeah. And the view changes. Mm-hmm. It's the perspective work is so important. Yes. Oh, I remember one of the things I have often, I say this to myself still, but I used to say this a lot more.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in the next few weeks, or it'll be interesting to see what happens in the next 24 hours. As like a way of saying like, oh, no. Because I'm most more tense than not, especially back then, but like, I have no, we have no control, right? 

Like there's anything that traumatic loss reminds you is that we really can only control our reactions to things and like kind of what comes at us.

And so it'll be interesting to see what happens and then like saying like, okay, and I bought the fortitude, or I've got the [00:30:00] ability to step into that. it, it gives more opportunity for curiosity, for wondering, like it could be also pretty Okay. 

You mentioned knowledge as being one catalyst to to, I'm gonna call it agency.

What are some other things where. People can start to step into their own power to choose. I, you and I both absolutely adore Viktor Frankl and I have, you know, his books, he inspires me greatly. And his whole thing was even in the worst of times. All we really have is our ability to choose. Yeah. But how do we get there?

And perspective. And perspective. Perspective. I think it's just what we were just saying, Mike, it's going back to the basics. It's these fundamental simplicity is, and then building from that place, sometimes [00:31:00] you're facing a really big choice and it feels so overwhelming that, well, how do I make this decision?

What do I, you know, this is gonna change my life or it's gonna, you know, change other kids' lives for hours. Instead of facing the big change as like this terrifying, life thing that's gonna happen. What if you just come back to what's simple? Come back to like, okay, well what's today? What does today look like?

What do I need to do today to get closer to making that decision? I mean, that's, it's very coachy.

But it is that, right? It's coming back to the basics so that those foundational and those fundamental things are there so that you actually can make choice. So you can make choice from a really grounded, emotionally regulated place. That simplicity, I don't think we can overemphasize that more.

'cause there's so many times when, if you're trying to eat the whole frog. You know, it's just too overwhelming, so you don't even [00:32:00] pick it up. Not that anybody wants to eat frogs, but that basically is what it feels like sometimes when you're trying to make changes. It's like, I gotta eat a frog. 

It can be really scary. And the knowledge, you know, your own tolerance. Now, some people have a greater tolerance for change than others, you know, and so it's like, okay, well how do we build that capacity? Build your tolerance for change a little bit so that you can then step into something different.

And I mean, I, and this is redundant and you know, people talk about self-care all the time, but it is to me so foundational, it is the way that I work with my clients because, you know, that goes up a window when you're so overwhelmed, when you're so emotionally dysregulated. So I'm constantly like, like there are just non-negotiables in my life that are fundamental and make.

Be a better person, a better partner, a better friend, a better therapist that are just intact for that. And I really believe in creating some sort of [00:33:00] foundational self-care plan. That is just in place. Because if, you know, it's like the usual, if you're not okay, then how can you support other people?

You know? Same thing. Yes. 

The Illusion of Self-Care

Kathy Washburn: And I wa I wanna highlight, this is a big topic for me, often because there's this illusion of selfishness that comes with self care. Like, oh, I'm going to go take a bubble bath. Like, the self care is, I'm gonna go indulge myself. And there's no indulgence. Yeah. There could be, I mean, sometimes, but most of my self-care is discipline base.

Like, I don't want to go to that workout at six in the morning with I glow.

Sometimes it requires dis sometimes I do wanna know, but sometimes it's just, it requires an incredible amount of discipline. And self-care does require discipline because you're putting this in place instead of you're coming back to yourself instead of just giving yourself away [00:34:00] or numbing yourself and numbing yourself.

Yeah. Yeah. There was that period after, right in the beginning of my marriage separation and the divorce where my self-care was a couple glasses of wine, it's, which is not self-care at all. And I was even encouraged by a therapists that I first started to see who was telling me, you know, you're depressed.

And I'm like, no I'm sad. She said, well, every time you come here, the first 10 minutes you spend crying. I'm like, isn't that why I'm supposed to be here? Because I can't cry. I don't wanna cry in front of my children and I don't wanna cry with my friends because we just hash and rehash. Isn't this the safe place I get to do this?

And she said, maybe a couple glasses of wine. And I thought, what? 

Finding the Right Therapist

Kathy Washburn: When I finally found a really good therapist, I was kind of shocked. And right now, you know, sometimes my sons or friends will say, how do I get, [00:35:00] how do I find a real, a good therapist? And I always say, it's kind of like a yoga teacher.

Everybody teaches yoga differently. You have to find somebody that aligns with you, but don't stay with them. I mean, I stayed with that woman for, you know, three months of torture. It's like, yeah, I mean, it's the balance between knowing that you need to build a rapport with somebody and like, you know, sticking out long enough to say, okay, I'm not gonna, maybe this person right off the bat isn't gonna be, you know, perfection because, you know, therapy is challenging.

It's really hard to go to therapy. It takes a lot of courage to step into that, of that self-reflection. And yeah, I mean, at some point you just say like, okay, well this just is like, you know. It's not working Right. And there is such importance in seeking professional help when we're dealing with change, trauma, grief.

Can you say [00:36:00] more about that? About, how we can help people or how it helps people in ways that maybe you're gonna go back to the co-pilot and ground crew, but Yeah. What it offers. Stability. Really like somebody, if you can find someone that you can build that really sacred rapport with.

I'm a really relational therapist, as you can probably imagine. Like I'm clinical ish, I pull in the clinical, but I'm mostly relational. I can mostly like, Hey, what's up? What? And you know, what, holding my professional ethics and boundaries and all those things but it's stability. It's somebody who knows your story and can really start to identify what your patterns are so that you're able to self-reflect safely.

You're not being judged. You're, there's this unbiased person in front of you. They know your story. Like, I mean, I've been [00:37:00] seeing my therapist for over nine years. I see her weekly and I was see her biweekly. She is the most, has been the most stable person in my life, and she's very confidential so I can share things with her that I feel safe.

It's just not out in the world, you know, especially around like a homicide investigation, all those things. So, there's stability and safety in that. That's I mean, I couldn't even imagine for me what that would be like if I hadn't had her. She's, I should able to, my therapist. But I strive to, to give back to my clients too, this place that they can come back to where they're known and they're accepted and they're not judged.

And you can say like, okay, well, whatever it is, like, bring it in, bring it to the table. Like, what feels icky about that? And then challenge them. Say, okay, hang on. Be like I personally like being challenged [00:38:00] that's in therapy. And so, you know, finding somebody who fits you, you know? Wow. But. 

The Power of Safe Relationships

Kathy Washburn: I'm big on self-improvement and, you know, always striving for something different and better.

And I find safety, safe relationships are a great place to grow. Yeah. And that's what we're meant. I believe that's what we're here on this earth to do is to grow through what we go through. And the one way or one of the most significant ways is being able to ask for help and finding those people that have walked through this dark force that we find ourselves in.

Maybe they're a foot, you know, one foot ahead of us, or maybe they're on the other side, but they have some they have some awareness of what you're going through I think that is really powerful, and I think that's where the disconnect was with that therapist. She'd never been betrayed. Yeah. And she was very judgy.

Yeah. [00:39:00] And I didn't need judgment. And once I, you two glasses of wine at night, and I certainly didn't need that, or I didn't need the egging on. Believe me I had no problem reaching for the wine by myself. To have a therapist give me permission was like, I'll just have four glasses. And that was not, the numbing was not helping me.

But when I did find a therapist that I just adored and was so helpful, every time I left her office, I felt I, like I could breathe again and step into the places that weren't changing, you know? Yeah. I, relationships that you, with my sons. I didn't wanna bring that stuff in there. And they certainly weren't the people that were gonna get me to the other side.

They had their own issues they were dealing with. 

Navigating Grief and Support Systems

Kathy Washburn: So finding support is so important. It brings the people [00:40:00] around you. You know, I often say I, I'll come to my friends and family and partner with things that I'll be like, well, I'm like, I'm noticing this about myself, or I'm reflecting on this about myself.

I am, I'm in process around this, but the processing part doesn't happen with 'em. It, the processing happens with my therapist and then I kind of come back to myself. I sort do what I need to do with it, and then I go to my people and it takes the burden off of 'em. You know how, this is a good example.

I make fun of my mom's. My mom has like, I mean, insane morning self-care routine. Sorry mom, I'm calling you out here. It is hours. Like she does physio, she works out, she does something with like her gums. It's just wild. And I make fun of her for it, of course as a daughter does. And I appreciate it so much because she's looking after her so that I can look after me.

And I don't mean to sound [00:41:00] individualistic, but there's something so powerful and valuable about people who can tend to themselves and you tend to yourself, I mean, like come together, you tend to each other, but there's not like this dependence. You have to look after me or, you know, my happiness depends on you or my okayness depend on you.

And so I actually make fun of her, but I do really appreciate it because it's her looking after her so that I don't have to worry about her balance. Not that I, I don't know if I would, but yeah. That's a beautiful way to put that in. I often say, ha, happiness is an inside job. Okayness is an inside job.

But that other perspective of how that is in relationship allows people to meet on a different level. And I think family support and friend support. When an individual is emotionally disregulated or [00:42:00] disassociating or going through a traumatic event. Difficult challenge. Grieving, I think there's this, you mentioned it before.

There is either a tendency for people to run away 'cause they don't know what to do and they, you know, they don't, just don't know how to respond. So. For their own reasons. I lost a friend when I had cancer and I was, she just wasn't returning my calls. And she never came to see me, never reached out.

And then I found out years later that her mother died of ovarian cancer when she was 34. When the mother was 34, the daughter was only six. I had no I did not have that information. So for those years, I was just mad as hell. Of course. Like, how can you not be there for me? But how can friends and family best support?

Well, I mean, you just named it. I mean there's, okay, there's so many ways, but I'll [00:43:00] start with saying that processing your own stuff, like anytime the closest people to me go, what do you mean? Go to favor? Just go to go get your own support, because I can't take on your grief right now. But they're all grieving too, right?

I mean, right. Circumstance, like everybody loved diggy. Well, not everybody, but almost everybody loved diggy. Everybody in my world loved him in our world. I couldn't take their grief on and also tend to myself. So that was my request. And I think there's a diagram somewhere, and a few clients have mentioned this to me.

I haven't actually seen it, but it's like you turn out, so like there's primary people who are grieving a loss specifically, and you go, don't turn toward those people for support term outward. Yeah, what I was saying, like, please just get your own support somewhere. But also like the patience part that I mentioned, [00:44:00] you know, not expecting, just eliminate your expectations of this person in terms of your ti, your timeline, what you think this should look like.

I had lots of people asking me about dating and all sorts of things that I like, I couldn't even comprehend. I was just, you know, surviving and before bringing things to me about my work and dating and all these things. And I was like, I'm trying to do the day, like I'm trying to appreciate this coffee right now, you know, of the sunshine.

Like, that felt like a feat for me. Like it felt like such a solid thing to do. And so I think when those expectations were coming in, I felt really overwhelmed. You know, but the confusion around, are you still talking about him? You're still talking bubbles, like, yeah, but 10 years I'm still talking about it and I'm, you know, I'm pretty defiant in that way, like.

I'm gonna be talking about it in 10 more years in, [00:45:00] you know, 50 years. And I'm not sorry that it makes you uncomfortable. No. Yeah. A lot of being a bereaved person is tolerating the discomfort of other people. I mean, it's very common, but don't say things like it was meant to be. E everything happens for a reason.

There's some, I'm not one to police people's language too much, or I try not to because it prevents people from connecting with you. And many of my very close dear friends who I adore and love dearly, they send permission to be human. Yeah. Permission to be human. Right. And we were, you know, in our thirties, so.

Nobody could conceptualize what was happening or had the skills or the awareness or knew what to do or say. So just showing up was really what was, what really mattered, you know? And there's some blanket platitudes that are really just not [00:46:00] helpful. Tell me more about how everything happens for a reason.

You know, just, I can see your discomfort and then it just says to me that you're not a safe person for me to talk to. If that's your belief, essentially. So what's so magnificent about your work is that you are making it okay to live with grief. And there's so much in our culture that says, okay, move along.

I mean, even, it's astounding to me that in a work environment you get. You know, two days for bereavement, if it's a family member, if it's a spouse, you might get a week. It's wild, right? It's the whole world has just shifted and rocked underneath you, and you're trying to make meaning of it and stepping back into this place and talk about unskilled humans in the workplace.

I think there's, it's most evidence [00:47:00] because people, everybody knows what happens, but nobody wants to talk about it. So there's this elephant in the middle of the room. It's just I was a walking elephant in the middle of the room for many, you know, I, people would avoid me or they would come up to me and they'd say, wow, you look great.

Like, you look like you're doing so well. And I'd be like. You know, it was just vital to witness like, and now I have enough space and time and perspective away from it that I can just sort of look back. Whoa. There was a lot of, like, I was tolerating a lot. I didn't even realize at the time how much I was tolerating because I was so busy just trying to survive that.

I didn't even really recognize it. But yeah, it's there's not enough support. There's not enough knowledge. There's not enough permission, as you said, to miss someone to grieve, to be [00:48:00] in the human experience, and whatever that looks like day to day timeline be damned, you know, like it wasn't until really for me, about three years later that I came out of that dissociated place, because that's around the time that.

A lot of the state stuff had been such years for estate stuff to be sort of finalized. And it, that was my hardest time because I had been super focused and everybody had gone back to their lives. You know, nobody could even fathom you. I was traveling, hiking mountains, doing the things, venturing along.

So it looked like I was, you know, behaving and I was being torn apart on the inside because I was like, what is, like what now what? Okay. If like finalized these things, I'm like, what now? And there needs to be more awareness that's what's happening. And then you [00:49:00] go back to your normal life after someone close to you loses someone that there's still Yes.

In year 2, 3, 4, 10 years out still, I. Navigating that walls on some level. Yeah. 'cause it's now a part of you. It's become part of your Yeah. Identity. And there's no reason to try to ignore it or stifle it or numb it. It's just human experience. It's part of your human experience. I feel so much power in what you've shared of just really getting on your own side, which can feel super hard at first.

I mean, I know. I certainly experienced just getting my ass outta bed in the morning sometimes was a big celebration or making myself dinner or breakfast or eating it all. But [00:50:00] it's worthy of celebrating as you're in this tumult and. It is with these celebrations that you start to build up little acorns of confidence in being in the world again.

Yeah. It it's through those well coming back, the basics that you're able to find the foundation for some level of self-compassion and self worthiness like I actually worth of doing. I'm worth like getting outta bed for and, you know, making the meal for healthy nutritional meal like that will actually serve me that So act as an act of self-care.

Yeah. As an act of self-care and as an advocate for yourself. And when shit hits the fan, when life gets really hard you have to double down on that. It doesn't, I guess you're being taken somewhere else in the overwhelm, and so what worked for you before might not be [00:51:00] enough. You might have to double down.

I'm saying, okay, well I'm gonna, I'm gonna get rid of a noise. I'm gonna fly across the World 

Amelia Bradaric: Queen house, 

Kathy Washburn: but I'm gonna get rid of the noise. So I can just sort of be in this, the focus of tending to myself, whatever that looks like. And then also highlighting this idea of. You're also worthy of support and pursuing that help that you need, it's not gonna come to you.

I think that's one of the biggest aha moments for some of my clients. It requires investing in yourself. Like this is the name of the podcast for a reason. And you know, I spent 25 years in the investment industry, but the language, really the metaphor is work. You invest in yourself, you found your own worth.

It does pay dividends. there is compound interest, but there absolutely is because when you look after yourself and you get to a place of like, [00:52:00] okay, well now I feel like I'm more able to be here with you, or I'm more able to pick on the next thing. There's compound that's like where the compound interest comes in, right?

These foundational things are already there. I understand. Yes. And you have it inside you. Viktor Frankl, you know, he had it inside him. In the worst, absolutely worst possible conditions anyone could imagine. It was still inside you. So, know that it is, and you make it so accessible and normalize this very this very human experience of grief and loss.

Nobody gets out of this world without it on some level, some of us bigger loss and bigger grief, but I don't think you can get through this lifetime without it. So being on your own side is a big part of adventuring. Yeah, absolutely. 

Supporting Loved Ones Through Trauma

Kathy Washburn: For someone who has [00:53:00] loved, has had who has a loved one that's experiencing intense trauma or grief or loss, what would, what advice would you offer them based on your own journey?

And I think you've said this a little, but I really wanna accentuate it. 'cause I think some people feel at a loss of, what can I do? Or they go the complete other way. Like, I'm gonna fix you. I'm gonna, I'm gonna push myself so far down your throat, you're gonna wanna throw me up. Just 

Amelia Bradaric: avoid that part.

Kathy Washburn: How did your support system help or fail you? I guess, and I don't know, that's probably not fair because Yeah. I mean, to varying degrees, right? I mean, yeah. I'm definitely not here. Throw anybody under the bus because Right. It's so hard. Being a support person is so hard. I've been a support person and people in my life I'm often called upon.

You know, especially because of the work that I do, and I don't even always know what to do or say. So it's permission to be uncomfortable. As [00:54:00] a support person, you will be uncomfortable. Full stop. Get over it. Be uncomfortable. It's not about you. It's not about you. So there's that, the fixing you know, don't fix or this is not, you can't make somebody undead.

That is the only thing. If you ask any bereaved person, what do you want? What do you need? I need them to be here. I need them to be the person I'm talking to right now and not you. you can't fix this. And there's no story of a friend. That is gonna help this situ. It is wild to me how often that happens.

So, you know, just those are things to avoid, but things to do. You know, it's interesting because I hear often that you should just show up and do that is what across the board, people who work in the grief world will tell you to do, just show up and do the thing. That was very unhelpful for me.

it, it was unhelpful because it [00:55:00] took away my autonomy, it took away my choice. People were in my home cleaning and I'm like, no, his DNA, Aw. It's like there were things that people like showed up to do out of sheer kindness and love and support That for me, felt really violating. I say that because there's no right or wrong way.

To be, it's just showing up and showing you care and the best way that you know how. 

Yeah. I could go further into that, but I won't. Well, I think we can go back and capture what you said earlier. I think in this case it's also like simple is better than complicated. Like if you can simply show up, how simply can you show up as yourself from that place of heart mattering and know your role in this person's life.

So if you are somebody who is really close to that person, [00:56:00] disappearing is obviously a wacky thing to do. If you are somebody who's a little bit removed, maybe it's like a friend of a friend. It's like a text message here and there is enough. You don't need to insert yourself in their day-to-day life or, you know, but really understanding the relationship that you have with that person.

On some level it can be really helpful and you have people show up that surprise you. few of those people that, that really surprised me. I'm like, whoa. Like this person's really showing up for me and it's not something I would expect. And then vice versa. And you other people that you would expect to show up don't.

There's a lot of disappointment in that. I work with clients. That's a huge topic in my client sessions because there's so much disappointment in the way expectations versus the reality of what's happening. Actually, I have a course on that coming out. Ooh. Yeah. Yeah. Where we'll promote all that stuff in the show notes.

So it's managing all of that. there's some, you know, blanket things to not even [00:57:00] say, but 

 Just show up the best you can. Yeah. It's a beautiful, yeah, it's a beautiful way to end our conversation. Yeah. And permission to, on both front. You know, I just, I'm not trying to put this on the griever and the bereaved person or the person who's experienced trauma, because of course, if you want people coming rushing to them to some degree, and you are also responsible for your relationships.

You have autonomy in your relationships. And so there is some level of trying to speak your need. You are not gonna know what you need in early grades. You're not gonna be like, oh, why did you face this? You like, you likely gonna be able to voice that. But if something, somebody does something, it's unhelpful to be like, you know what?

That's just like not what I need right now. That, that voicing, that goes a long way. And it, it teaches people right. How to show up for you, which really matters. I love that. 

Simple Acts of Kindness

Kathy Washburn: I remember when I was going through cancer, my bosses the [00:58:00] boss that I had in the investment world, his mom wrote me a letter once a week, and all it was describing her world.

She told me about the bluebirds that were coming back in the spring and the buds on the, I mean, I barely knew her, but her little description of a world that was, you know, I was in Minnesota, she was in Maine. I think it was just, it was so helpful on this level that I didn't even expect or I could never have articulated, just write me what's happening in your world.

And it was just so simple. Yeah. I wonder how she knew to do that, but. I don't know, but she just got diagnosed with cancer herself, so I think I might have to return that that gift that she gave me so long ago. You'll have to tell her what's going on in New Hampshire. Yeah. Okay. You know, this is coming, but if I were to take your essence and crush it up and put it in pill form, [00:59:00] what effect would you have on someone?

I specifically didn't include that question on your thing. 'cause I didn't want you to. Yeah, well, I mean, I think it's twofold. Okay. So it's the both end, right? I mean, I think our last podcast was on hope and we talked a lot about post-Traumatic Row, and I've also been described as the Muppet hecklers now, like the old 

Amelia Bradaric: hecklers 

Kathy Washburn: from the Muppets.

So it's both end, right? It's like some level of irreverence that you can trust. And I'm generally a pretty hopeful person that's been challenged in the last 10 years, but that I was sort of born that. Hmm. So I enjoy taking that pill and every single connection we have. Thank you for your gift of time and your genius.

You just make the world a more palatable place, especially around this idea of looking at it as an [01:00:00] adventure.

I love you too.