Ep. 56 - Kindness Revolution How a Technology Executive is Solving the Loneliness Epidemic at Work with Natalie Semmes

Are you tired of the endless cycle of people-pleasing, emotional suppression, and disconnected “social junk food”—but not sure how to reclaim your authentic self? In this empowering episode of The Self Investment Project, we dive deep into the transformative power of kindness and intentional connection, uncovering practical tools for emotional wellness and sustainable self-care in our hyper-digital world.

Host Kathy Washburn is joined by Natalie Semmes, international technologist and cancer survivor, who shares her inspiring journey from high-pressure corporate success through life-altering illness and into her mission to spark a “kindness revolution.” Discover how Natalie’s innovative KindYou app gamifies genuine connection, why being kind to yourself is the ultimate secret weapon against burnout, and what the science—and true stories—reveal about overcoming isolation, negativity bias, and emotional inflammation at work and home.

Learn about the essential pillars of clarity, care, recognition, and connection, and walk away with actionable strategies to foster real human relationships, set healthy boundaries, and finally invest in your own well-being. Whether you’re facing midlife reinvention, navigating cancer survivorship, or simply ready to break free from old patterns, this episode is your invitation to step boldly into a wildly authentic, joy-filled next chapter. Don’t miss the chance to transform your relationship with yourself, your community, and the world—one intentional act of kindness at a time.

Topics Discussed in this Episode:

• Intentional acts of kindness in workplaces
• Social junk food and emotional wellness
• Gamifying positive psychology for connection
• Building resilience through self-kindness
• Technology’s impact on authentic relationships

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Transcript

Ep. 56 - Kindness Revolution How a Technology Executive is Solving the Loneliness Epidemic at Work with Natalie Semmes

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[00:02:32] Introduction and Greetings
[00:02:32] Kathy Washburn: Welcome Natalie Sims. I'm delighted to have you today. How are you? I'm doing great, Kathy. Doing really well. It's nice and toasty warm here in London today, so yeah, it's good.

[00:02:45] It's summer. Yeah, summer is fabulous. The sun really does kind of change things, doesn't it? Especially in London where I always think of London as kind of dreary and rainy. Every time I've been there, that's what it's been. Yeah, actually, [00:03:00] you know, I think London, because we don't see the sun all the time, people are just overjoyed when weather is, you know, is actually decent and you can be outside and, and sort of enjoy walking around and not feel freezing or wet or, you know.

[00:03:16] Yeah. You know, so, so it's really great when the weather's nice and yeah, we really just enjoy it now, so, yeah. Oh, I'm glad you're having one of those days. Natalie is coming to us with her her ethos around kindness, which I'm super excited to dive in. She has a website called Elf Care, and I'm gonna have her talk more about it.

[00:03:40] Natalie's Background and Journey
[00:03:40] Kathy Washburn: And I'd just love to start, if you would share with us kind of how you got to where you are doing what you're doing in this moment. I often, I'm a narrative coach, so sometimes I'll invite my guest to just answer the prompt. Once upon a time. Okay. Once upon a time. [00:04:00] Yeah. I mean, I guess Kathy, you know, we, I, I guess as, as humans, you know, we, we find ourselves on this planet and it's, it's an incredible, you know, I guess array of different cultures and, you know, types of people and types of experiences you can have.

[00:04:19] And, and I've been, I feel very fortunate to have lived the life I've lived. Right. I've, I've come through many different backgrounds. I've lived in nine countries growing up. And I managed to land in a, in a career which I really enjoyed in technology and having, having done engineering as my undergrad degree.

[00:04:38] And I guess what I really liked about it was being able to. Do something that would actually transform people's lives. I mean, this is something that I've always been super, super passionate about, you know, and, and having that opportunity to, to make a difference. And I think we all want to do that, right?

[00:04:57] We all want to do that, and we have to [00:05:00] find our own ways and our own talents and, and our own capabilities to, to make that impact. I really like the expression I think it was Mark Twain, I believe who said this, but I think there's two days that are the most important in your life. It's the day you were born and the day you find out why.

[00:05:20] Ooh, yes. Yes. And I guess in, in answer to your question, I feel like I have found out why it took me many, many years to get to that point of what am I here to do on this planet? And I feel like you know, I, having been a, a, a career long technologist and helped major global organizations transform and really you know, make, make a huge difference to millions of people using technology.

[00:05:49] I, I kind of feel like in this day and age and where we are today with everything so digital and everybody living in this I guess front wave of [00:06:00] AI coming, you know, that, that we're all em embarking on into this journey, into this new era. Okay. I feel that. 

[00:06:09] The Importance of Kindness
[00:06:09] Kathy Washburn: Part of what, what I'm here to do is to help people remain connected to their humanity.

[00:06:14] Okay. Too, because I think it's so important. I am a very huge advocate in of technology and, and the great things that it can enable us to do. But I feel like we must never forget that everything we do needs to be an aid of humanity and to actually help us remain as human as possible. And so, and because of that, I feel like that's sort of where I started on this journey around kindness and helping people to just like, we have to think a little bit more intentionally than we used to.

[00:06:48] I mean, if you think about the whole evolution of humans, we evolved as humans you know, hunting and gathering as we know. Right. And we were out there trying to you know, well we, we, we would [00:07:00] col collaborate with our fellow humans to hunt down prey, really. Right? And we would gather around a campfire.

[00:07:06] 320,000 years ago was the first remains of a, of a campfire where there was a human gathering. And this connection between humans has been with us, you know, for a, a million years, right? And we are bringing this forward into today's day and age. And I think that we, I. We must remember that even though we have all of these amazing digital tools, you and I are speaking right now, uh mm-hmm.

[00:07:36] Zoom, and we can, we're in different continents and this is not a problem whatsoever. We can easily interact with each other, but I feel like it also enables us to potentially forget to have a, a, a meaningful connection with each other. And so going back to the, what the analogy is, we used to. Eat healthily because that's the only food available was, you [00:08:00] know, meat and vegetables and fruits and whatever.

[00:08:02] And that was all we had. And you know, so we were very healthy. Suddenly we invented all this, you know, junk food that's been marketed to us. And people started to get really unwell, physically, right? And we, we then realized, oh, hold on a minute. This is causing heart attacks and, and it's raising people's cholesterol and diabetes and all of this.

[00:08:20] So we now need to be intentional about what we eat and what we ingest into our bodies. Similarly, I think we now need to be more intentional, you know, although it used to be every day we would just be together with our, our family, our coworkers, and whatever. We would be all together all the time. 

[00:08:38] The Concept of Social Junk Food
[00:08:38] Kathy Washburn: You just lived like that right now, we must be more intentional about meaningful social connections or else we end up consuming social junk food, which is social and all the thousands of different ways that we can communicate with each other at, at, at a level.

[00:08:55] But unfortunately, it tends to be at a very superficial level for many people. [00:09:00] And we are in an epidemic of loneliness right now declared by the Surgeon General in the United States and, and it's global. It's not just in the us. And we must ask ourselves, why is this, even though we more connected than ever, why do we still feel more disconnected than we ever have?

[00:09:17] So I think that's why kindness has a real relevance in today's world more than ever. Mm, social junk food. Dang, I have not heard that expression yet. But it is so, poignant to me. And in that sa in that context of food, you know, we, we were introduced to so much junk and it's so, luing and you know, sweet and, and instantaneous, like dopamine, dopamine, dopamine and in that same way.

[00:09:52] And it's not satisfying. You scroll and that's, yeah. It's not even designed to be satisfying. Neither is the [00:10:00] food. Just to continue on that thought, that, you know, I think social networks, you know, let's, let's say Facebook is one of the very first ones, right?

[00:10:08] Was we're created to help people connect genuinely with each other. I think the intention was there to have it fulfill something positive for, for humanity, but we, I guess people then started to realize, well, hold on a minute. If we, if we can capture people's attention and engagement like this, we, you know, we can sell them stuff and let's keep them engaged and let's, let's, let's make them keep wanting to stay on online or connected and, you know, commenting and liking and whatever, and posting stuff and.

[00:10:40] And leave them with that feeling that they always need more. And this is the same thing with junk food, right? That the, the companies only make money if you go out and buy more Doritos, as you said, you know? Yeah. It's really interesting. And I you know, this idea, you're a technologist and that's, that's where.

[00:10:58] You know, you grew up in that [00:11:00] industry and using positive technology, which is something I've been hearing about ever since I dove into this positive psychology world because I too kind of came from a technology background and I love processes and I love, you know, creating pos processes that help focus.

[00:11:21] And so techno positive technology was really something I was so interested in. 

[00:11:26] Introducing the Kind You App
[00:11:39] Kathy Washburn: And gamifying positively gamifying this ability to counter this kind of social junk food in this way that we can be more intentional about expressing, being kind to ourselves and expressing kindness to others. So you created.

[00:11:53] An actual app, is that correct? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Tell us a little about this app [00:12:00] and well, yes, let's start there. Okay. Tell us about the app. Okay. The app is called Kind You, K-I-N-D-Y-U. And and I guess the, the concept of it sort of started from, you know, other things that I've seen have been unfortunately needed as zaps because we aren't as intentional as we used to be.

[00:12:21] So we do now have things like food trackers to help us think about what are we consuming and our macros and all of that, right? We also have activity trackers that help us to take our 10,000 steps a day, as an example, right? And, and it, and it gives you little rewards and stuff. So I was just thinking what can, what could I do to help people be more mindful about our, you know, genuine, meaningful human connections?

[00:12:48] At work and in our personal lives, right? So in, in a holistic way. So this concept of kind, you came to me, I was on a flight actually heading to San Diego for an a, a [00:13:00] conference startup San Diego conference where we were actually being asked to be part of the keynote for that conference. And I was on the flight thinking, what could, you know, what could, how could we make this something that would actually help people, you know, foc be more intentional, but, but, but, but also make it something fun, right?

[00:13:17] We, nobody wants to do anything that's a chore. They're just never gonna do it. Mm-hmm. So I thought, let, let, let's tap into the same behavioral science that's used for, you know, for video games and all of that kind of thing, right? Award rewards and points and score and scores and things like that. And incorporate into something that helps you.

[00:13:37] Be kinder, right? So it's about sharing daily acts of kindness and and you can use it with your colleagues at work, and you can also use it privately with your friends and family at home. And the, the point is that you can send and share with each other messages of recognition and appreciation.

[00:13:57] You can show support for each [00:14:00] other. You can ask, you know, are you okay? Do you think you, would, you like to go for a coffee? And it's just these little messages that I think they, they, they don't take any time really to, to do. The point though, what we're, what we're trying to advocate is for when you share a kind, you with somebody, you, you share with them why you're sending it to them, right?

[00:14:21] Try, try to be, it's not just a high five or anything. It is more about, you know, what you did for me last night allowed me to, you know. Put my kids to bed and that, you know, and I wouldn't have been able to if you hadn't helped me last night with that project. You know, so that, that type of thing, right?

[00:14:38] Being, being authentic about what it is that that other person did that made a difference to you. And and every time you share a kind, you can share only three a day. So it's gamified. You can't just send infinite numbers of them. You get kind coins for doing this. You also get kind coins for posting on this, on the feed that we have, which is all about [00:15:00] sharing inspirations about others.

[00:15:01] So it's, no, no, humble braggers are loud. It's all about sharing something that you've observed. Maybe a stranger, you saw a stranger help somebody, and that was really inspiring to you or somebody you know. And and yeah. So for example, we we've been piloting this this app with a, a, a tech company here in the UK and South Africa.

[00:15:22] Personal Stories and Impact
[00:15:22] Kathy Washburn: And their chief operating officer posted inspiration to say, you know, she'd gone to the doctor surgery. It was, you know, a big, big queue and a, a bit of a wait. They were behind schedules, so people were a little bit, you know. Not happy about that, let's put it that way. But suddenly a guy that was just sitting there started to have a heart attack.

[00:15:45] Okay. And she said, and then, you know, the whole surgery, you know, went into action, right? People were giving their, you know, their sweaters to help cushion the guy's head. And you know, the doctors came out of their offices to try to, [00:16:00] you know, give him mouth to mouth and all of that, and everybody came together to help this poor guy who just suddenly had a heart attack.

[00:16:07] I mean, I guess it was the best place ever to have a heart attack, right? But, but anyway, what she said was, you know, a, you could see how as humans, we do come together when people are in need, right? And it's really great to see that, uh mm-hmm. The guy. Ended up surviving. Thank, thank goodness. But also it just made everybody realize, you know what?

[00:16:29] Me waiting for another whatever, 10 minutes is not a big deal. This guy could have died. You know, it's like, and she kind of went and this, I think this was on the weekend and she was, she said, you know, just made me think the whole weekend. You know, we, we don't know how long we have on this planet. And that experience just really reinforced that for me.

[00:16:48] You know, I hugged my children really, really tightly that night, you know, because, you know, I'm grateful to be alive. 'cause that, that experience really brought it home to me. And so, you know, those are kind of [00:17:00] messages of stories of inspiration. Everybody loved that story on, on the platform. And so it's all meant to be about sharing positive and good news.

[00:17:09] I guess stories to help inspire and and, and hopefully elevate everybody else's mood around around the table. And, and so, you know, I guess the, the outcome of this, and by the way, the, all those kind coins go towards team rewards. And the team rewards go towards things that the, the company is willing to put on the table, such as maybe their a, a donation to their partner charity or a team lunch or an event that they're all looking forward to.

[00:17:39] You know, maybe they're contributing to you know, a, a new ping pong table, whatever it is, right? Something, something that's meaningful to the team and and actually, you know, they can compete against each other. So teams can compete against each other for, you know, to see who gets to the, to the number of points they need to win the reward first, you know?

[00:17:58] Anyway, so, so the, the result [00:18:00] of our first pilot was really positive and we had. I guess just over 50% overall engagement with the app. But what was more I get, I mean, there's lots of stats, that's great. But it was more the kind of stories that you heard from people, you know, people were saying, 'cause one of the things the app does is ask you every day to capture how are you, how are you?

[00:18:21] And some people loved that feature. Like they were just like, you know what, I, I actually get up 10 minutes earlier so that I can capture how I'm feeling. 'cause I, I feel like I need, I haven't been, I haven't been mindful of that. I haven't been actually used to asking myself this question. And because we're so busy helping everybody else, that sometimes we forget to ask ourselves, how are we right?

[00:18:46] And this mm-hmm. Part of what the app is helping you do is be kind to yourself. So yeah. Anyway, there was a lot of o other, other comments that people made were that, you know, people, people were very much looking [00:19:00] forward to using the app. They knew that if they opened it, it would be a positive experience.

[00:19:04] And that when I guess one of the ladies who, who we interviewed, we did lots of in-depth interviews and interviews, and we asked her what did she think of it? And she said, you know, I used to get, you know, sucked into these rabbit holes on social media. Right. Just scrolling through stuff. She's like, now I'm spending my time on kind.

[00:19:24] You, I, I don't even open those apps anymore. She's like, I don't get, you know, that the, the, that dopamine hit is not the same of what I get here because this is much more meaningful and I guess real. Yeah. So, hmm. Wow. There's a lot to unpack there. It sounds like you're already seeing a stunning ripple effect.

[00:19:49] And what's so beautiful about what you're doing, and again, this is gamifying a positive positive psychology basically, [00:20:00] which is countering our innate negativity bias that is magnified by our negativity culture. So this idea of using gaming to help people find the positive in and throughout the day, but also make it sticky.

[00:20:28] Yeah. You know, Rick Hanson, one of my favorite teachers, talks about negative emotions being like Velcro and positive emotions like Teflon. They just run, you know, they just, we just let go of them unless we really hold onto them and I call it give it a hot second to just let them sink in. And you are, you are having it sink in on several different levels.

[00:20:57] It's like the, I have to [00:21:00] engage in the morning. There's an element of, of relationship, like, I gotta support my team. I gotta show up. And then there's this, I'm not only just noticing something that somebody's doing, but I'm really letting it sink in and tell the story of it. So what happens with that is we get this positivity resonance that.

[00:21:26] Unlike a negative emotion where we have this tunnel vision and we're defending and we're, you know, fighting or, or in survival mode, when we're experiencing a positive emotion, the world's bigger. We see more things around us. We are, we're more open to to what the possibilities are. And through that we build really important resources.

[00:21:54] That is the whole design of a positive emotion is to build our [00:22:00] inner resources, whether they're intellectual, emotional, physical there's all kinds of resources that we're building through positive emotions. And you're doing it so brilliantly because I think the power of doing it in a community.

[00:22:20] Is not only feeling it, but also allowing yourself to be witnessed in it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And, and I think, you know, let, let, let's also, you know, acknowledge that an app on its own is not going to change the world. Right. And, and therefore I guess part of what I have also been working on is, you know, the kind of bigger context within which the app I let, let, let's consider the app, like a, a, a couch to 5K, you know, these things where they, you, you, you're encouraged to start running, like if you don't know how to run.

[00:22:55] Oh. Mm-hmm. And then, I don't know what you'd call them in the us but here we call them [00:23:00] Couch to 5K. And you know, you, you, it, it just basically takes you step by step to kind of just mm-hmm. Try. You know, okay, well, today you're gonna walk to the end of the block and you know, tomorrow you're gonna, you know, it's just taking you step by step so it doesn't feel so so, so difficult, right?

[00:23:17] To suddenly say, I'm going to just start running when you haven't run in years. Right? So that, that, that can be quite daunting for people. And, and therefore that's a kind of a gamification of getting people more physically active. And so this is a gamification of helping people, you know, who may be sometimes feeling reticent about opening up to others, right?

[00:23:40] And especially in the workplace to help them take those steps and make it, make it a bit fun. And but, but, but I guess it, it, it needs to be surrounded by. The reason why we're doing this, right, and this is why part of what I do is, is run workshops about the value of kindness, right? Because I think part of [00:24:00] this is about helping people understand the, the science behind it, the economics behind it, the, the, the personal wins you can achieve, right?

[00:24:10] Mm-hmm. Yes. And, and if we can, we can share that then people will. Be much more willing. Right? It's just like when we didn't understand that eating junk food was bad for our hearts. We're like, well, I like my Doritos. Why should I stop? You know what I mean? Like, so we need to educate people mm-hmm. To understand what is this doing to you, you know, on unbeknownst to you this, you know, this is having a, a negative effect, maybe not something you can detect right now, but in the longer term and on society in general.

[00:24:41] And we must be more intentional to nip that in the bud. Right. And this is something to help you with that. And why, because you will, I mean, we'll talk about all the benefits of it, but there's huge benefits to sharing kindness with others. Hmm. Yeah. And I wanna, I wanna just [00:25:00] like tap into for a hot second your, your, kind of opening into this kindness. 

[00:25:07] Cancer Diagnosis and Transformation
[00:25:11] Kathy Washburn: We're both cancer survivors and I often refer to cancer survivors as chosen ones because we have come this close to our mortality and see the world very differently, similar to the story that you shared of a woman, you know, getting a little sassy about being in line and all of a sudden witnessing somebody almost die in front of her.

[00:25:34] And that perspective change of like, oh my, okay, I'm just grateful to be alive and I wanna hug my children. I believe that as cancer survivors, we kind of, we walk in the world then that way, where we see things that other people haven't seen this close yet. And I, I'd love it if you could just share a little of your story of how [00:26:00] that kind of led to where you are now and kind of marrying kindness with what came innately natural to you.

[00:26:09] Yeah, absolutely, Kathy, because I guess it, yeah. You know, it doesn't seem to be the most natural thing for a, a technologist. And I was a partner at KPMG and I, you know, I started a business there that provided technology cloud-based solutions to global banks and grew it from nothing to 150 million pounds per annum.

[00:26:29] So it was a massive business, doing great. You know, so I was really you know. Really going from success to success. And I had won an award from the Prime Minister for automating benefit payments in the uk. And and all of this was great until I was diagnosed with cancer and, and I was actually diagnosed with cancer thyroid cancer initially.

[00:26:51] And then unfortunately then the second form of cancer, breast cancer which, which happened in quick succession. So it was a, a shock, right? It was a [00:27:00] shock that, you know, you, you never think it's gonna happen to you. You, you, you know about cancer, you know that people get it, but you're like, well, I'm, I, I mean, I was, as I was the fittest I'd ever been.

[00:27:10] I, I was exercising, I was eating well, you know, and, and so it's just not something that even entered my, my, my, my mindset. And, and it, and, and actually, and I, and I'm gonna make a little plug here that it was only found because I did it kind of annual medical. That my work said, you know, said, you need to do these annual medicals.

[00:27:32] I'm like, yeah, okay. I'll do it. Right. I know I'm gonna be healthy. And I was everything, everything came out really well. And then they're like, but hold on a minute. There's, you know, I can feel a lump right here, right on your throat. I'm like, really? I didn't even notice it. Yeah, yeah. No, you should get that checked out.

[00:27:47] And that was the, the thyroid cancer. So I, I did not notice it myself. Right. So first of all, please go to your medicals. Mm-hmm. When, you know, don't delay them. [00:28:00] They are, they're there for a reason. And if you haven't got one that's already scheduled, make sure you do periodically go and get your health checked out because, you know, we have, I mean, at the end of the day, right, we, we, we need to be there for our families.

[00:28:15] We need to be there for, for the people we care for. And, you know, those kind of things are the things that are, help us, help us stay here. So anyway, that's how it was discovered. The, the breast cancer was, was actually a, a rare form of breast cancer. Thyroid cancer is also rare. I don't understand why I got double rare, but there you go.

[00:28:32] And and the treatment was pretty, pretty severe. And I had to go through chemotherapy first because there was no point doing surgery unless I got through the chemo basically. And I got 70% of my lifetime dosage of chemotherapy in those six months. And it was, you know, I mean, it really did nearly kill me.

[00:28:53] Right. And I did almost die twice during that treatment period. And so, you know, you [00:29:00] can imagine this, and, and I know you, you felt this too, Kathy, in this predicament that you never expected nothing you've done to date. N none of my career successes, n you know, NN nothing that I had prepared for was gonna help me.

[00:29:16] Right now in what I was going through. And suddenly I felt very alone. I didn't know anybody else going through this. I, you know, obviously I didn't wanna worry my kids too much. Know, I had to tell them about it 'cause my hair was falling out. But, you know, I didn't want them to be too worried.

[00:29:33] And yeah, and so mentally it really did hit me hard, you know, and, and, and by the way, when I say that, it hit me hard doubly because it hit me. It, it knocked my confidence, but also the, the, the chemotherapy was so severe that I really couldn't think straight. You know, my, my brain was, it was so horrible and I was like, oh my God, I really, you know, I, I sort of, my whole life have seen my worth as my, [00:30:00] my intellectual capability.

[00:30:02] And now I can't even think straight. So, who am I? Like, who am I? Am I anybody now, you know, maybe I'm no one. Right? And and actually I did, I did start to do yoga and meditation during that time, which helped me hugely to realize that, I, you know, you're not, you're not your body, you're not your mind.

[00:30:23] You are something even deeper than, than both of those things. Mm-hmm. And I have to repeat this to myself constantly. I'm not my body, I'm not my mind. I'm something much deeper than that. Right. And then that's what's going to, you know, I'm gonna get through this somehow. Right. But I felt very alone and, and, and, and suddenly one day feeling really terrible and, you know, basically not knowing what's gonna happen if I'm gonna get through my next chemo dose or not.

[00:30:51] I got a package in the mail and it was it was from somebody I didn't know. So I, I opened it up. And I, and it was a, a [00:31:00] card and a little gift, and the card was from my boyfriend's ex-wife who I didn't know. And and she said in the card, I was very surprised to get this card, but she wrote me a handwritten card and said, you know, I, I, I heard that you are going through cancer.

[00:31:18] You know, my mom went through something, you know, very similar, not long ago. And I know how, how difficult it was for her and, you know, and she survived. And I wanted to let you know that I wanted be there for you. If there's anything I can do to support you during this time I wanna be here for you for that and, you know, just let me know.

[00:31:40] And, and I was like, oh my God, that's incredible that she would reach out to me, you know, and her name is Debs. And I was like, I was just so overwhelmed. I was just like, so, like my brain just was. Like, just couldn't compute. Right. W what would make her reach out to me like that. And it was just [00:32:00] kindness that she doesn't know me.

[00:32:01] She doesn't need to reach out to me for any reason. And you know, and, and, and she's also, you know, she's a, a, a big, you know, senior executive at a major organization, you know, she's, she's not you know, a, a nun, you know, she's mm-hmm. She's a person who has decided to actually be kind to me. Right. And it, it made such a huge difference.

[00:32:21] And from that, you know, that card and that small gift, you know, we, we then, you know, I, I mean, obviously I reached out to say thank you, and I was so appreciative. And, and you know, we, we, we met up and you know, and it was, it just began this whole thing, a relationship. And, but that moment transformed me because my mindset had been one of I guess.

[00:32:46] I don't know how to ex exactly phrase this, but I, I, I didn't know what to expect of, of other people. Okay. But that mind, that, that, made me change my mind. I, I, I want to [00:33:00] expect the best of other people because if somebody who is my boyfriend's ex-wife can be so kind to reach out to me like that, anything's possible.

[00:33:08] You know, I just felt it was in, it was incredible and it just, it just made me realize, but you know what? A, a lot of people are being super kind to me, it just sort of opened my eyes to all of the, the beautiful things people were doing for me. And yes, I was going through a lot, but I was incredibly lucky to have the people I had around me, you know, my, my boyfriend and, and and my kids at the time.

[00:33:29] And, and you know, long story short, my boyfriend and I, after I recovered, thankfully, and, and managed to survive and I'm very healthy now, which is great. But we did get married after that and and his ex-wife and her mom came to our wedding as our kids. And it was just beautiful. It was just beautiful.

[00:33:49] Yeah. Wow. 

[00:33:50] The Power of Kindness and Self-Care
[00:33:55] Kathy Washburn: And so that was the beginning of me sort of changing my whole I guess outlook and, and thinking, you know, I think [00:34:00] kindness is something that can drive. It can make mountains move and can make anything happen. Right. And and we, we haven't even started to understand the power of kindness.

[00:34:12] Hmm. Thank you for sharing that story. It's so beautiful. And I, I sense this thread that I hear often when I work with clients also this thread of fierce independence and they're off, it's often related to like a fierce independence as in, I don't need anybody's help. I got this, I, I can do this on my own.

[00:34:42] And also this shift of, oh, but I can do even better or even more when I allow myself to receive. Yes. The wisdom, kindness, love, [00:35:00] whatever from the humans around me. And I think a lot of us were raised, you know, to be unemotional basically. And I think you and I, similarly and a lot of people I talked to that performance or success or your job, like all of those things were conditional or conditions of your worthiness to be able to receive.

[00:35:26] But what I'm hearing is this complete shift in the underlying nature of like, oh, fierce independence. Hmm. There's something else out here for me. What a beautiful story. Yeah. And, and actually, you know what, what's interesting, Kathy, is I, I I didn't realize it at the time, but. It's actually only recently that I've realized that not only did that, you know, really [00:36:00] rewire my brain to, you know, to to, to open itself to the possibilities of others helping me, as you say, right?

[00:36:06] And, and, and the power of that and, and being, not just okay with it, but, but delighted that that is, that that is a possibility, right? And, and I think that also was a moment that transformed something else because I, from a young age, and many people do experiences, had a lot of anxiety. Okay? I suffered a lot of anxiety.

[00:36:29] I needed to, you know, perform really well at work because I felt this huge pressure that if I didn't do the best I possibly could, then I failed and I failed other people. And what, you know what I mean? I had this whole, you know, sort of these demons in my head talking to me in a. Negative way about, about me.

[00:36:51] Right. And I, I compensated by working incredibly hard, right? No matter what. And, and it, it did [00:37:00] get me somewhere, I guess right? But possibly also got me sick. Mm-hmm. The stress of it and all of that, you know, affected my sleep. It affected, you know, my, my, my own mental health and wellbeing. And, and once I allowed that and, and, and, and felt okay, not just okay, but happy that others would, would be there to support me and that we could support each other.

[00:37:29] Right. it also quieted those demons, right? Mm-hmm. To the point where I actually have no anxiety now. So since recovering from cancer. that noise and the, and the constant dialogues in my head, you know, across purposes all the time has gone right down. Right. I'm not saying I'm stress free, not at all, but I am not my own worst enemy.

[00:37:55] Mm-hmm. Which is a very important thing to, to, to be right. [00:38:00] To well and to not be. So, I, I think that being kind to yourself is a huge gift. Right. Because if you are able to be kind with yourself, then you are suddenly able to help others much more, right? Mm-hmm. And, and that is, for me, the ripple effect of kindness starts with you.

[00:38:18] Mm-hmm. It starts with you. And if you're able to show kindness to yourself. Suddenly it, you're not self-conscious about how do I come across to other people. I'm just me. You know, I, I, I hope I come across well. I, I, I go into every encounter I have thinking, how do I wanna show up and how do I want the other person to feel at the end of this discussion or, or interaction?

[00:38:43] enables me to not think about, well, how do they, you know, perceive me? Do I look funny? Do I, you know what I mean? Like, all of those things that used to go through my head, you know, what a gift. Yeah, yeah. You just, you just encapsulated emotional wellness [00:39:00] is like understanding that the, the saboteurs in our own head exist.

[00:39:05] Learning how to quiet them with self kindness so that we can. Really let others in and kind of show up at the, at the fire, you know, show up at that fire to share our vulnerabilities with one another. It's so beautiful. 

[00:39:22] Exploring the Kindness Framework
[00:39:28] Kathy Washburn: Now tell me you have a kindness framework. Yes. And I'd love to hear more about the actual framework.

[00:39:32] I think you put it in levels or pillars or maybe both. It's both. Yes. It's both. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:39:38] Challenges and Misconceptions About Kindness
[00:39:41] Kathy Washburn: And, and I guess Kathy, one of the big, you know, I, go around the world and I, and I, and I listen to, I, I, I try to spend a lot of time listening to what other people, especially in, in the business world, 'cause that's the world I've sort of grown up in, right?

[00:39:53] Mm-hmm. What, what are they afraid of, right? What, what, what makes them feel that they must be tough [00:40:00] guys at work, right? and what makes them feel that? In many cases, people believe kindness is weak, or kindness is fluffy and has no place in the, at work or in a, in a, in a company context.

[00:40:15] And then also it takes too much effort and it's, you know, too much, too much time. We don't have enough time for that, right? We, we have to hit our targets and blah, blah, blah. And so I listen to, to people's the challenges they're facing and the world we're, we're in today. And we are in a very fast moving world.

[00:40:32] You know, we've never seen more geopolitical tension. I think we have a lot of social polarization. We have AI as we've just talked about. There's a huge challenge with the cost of living and you know, the things around just the economy in general, right within. And it's not just limited to any one country.

[00:40:54] This is a global challenge. And, and let's not even get started with climate [00:41:00] change and all these things. So people are very uncertain. Right? And, and I wanted to address those challenges that people put back to me about kindness. You know, that it's weak, that it's vague, that it's fluffy, you know? And I said, okay, I, I hear you, because you're right.

[00:41:16] We have not been clear, we have not been clear about what is kindness and what, is it made up of? And I had been doing a lot of research in this space to, because I want to learn from those who have already been in this area and try to, you know, garner any wisdom that they might've found and collected, and also importantly, data that they might've found and collected around what difference does kindness make to, to us as individuals, to us as leaders, to our organizations, to our economies.

[00:41:51] Does it make a difference? Right. And, and, and, and, and, and I want, I wanted to know what the answer is to these things and but yeah, but before we could do that, I think, you [00:42:00] know what, what is kindness, right? And, and so I, reviewed hundreds and hundreds of academic papers to try to piece together what are those human behaviors that sort of coalesce around that you might put under the banner of kindness, right?

[00:42:16] what difference did those behaviors make to performance or personal, you know, our own personal performance as, as, as human beings, but, you know, within a, within a work context, how, how are we, how can we improve our performance at work as individuals? And then how, how, what does that mean for, for the organization?

[00:42:37] The Four Pillars of Kindness
[00:42:37] Kathy Washburn: And I was able to come up with these, the pillars of kindness, because I, I reverse engineered what are the questions that we ask people when we say, are you feeling engaged at your work? What, what are the things that, what are those questions that lead people to say, yes I am, or no I'm not. And by the way, I don't know if you know this, but at a, at a global level, employee engagement [00:43:00] is, is, is, is suffering, right?

[00:43:02] Mm-hmm. It's like 20% globally and in each country it's different, but 20% globally is, what does that tell me? It tells me that there's 80% chance of improving productivity. Right. If you could just unlock that, right. That, that, what if that was 80%, not 20% right? And it's never gonna be a hundred, but you know, certainly it has to be possibly make it more than 20.

[00:43:27] And and, and it's ironic that. Employee engagement is so low because it, it has that direct impact on global productivity and global productivity is, is going down even though AI is supposedly improving it, but it isn't. Mm-hmm. It isn't counterbalancing it. The the human aspect that we've not unlocked yet.

[00:43:49] Right. We, we've, we've all gone down this path of let's invest heavily in technology and digital informations and, and AI tools and whatever, because they're gonna be the answer. [00:44:00] 'cause it's easy, it's easy to throw some money at some shiny, shiny toys. What's not easy is to address human nature. Right. And, and that, so, so going back to the human nature and why the ki the kindness value framework, I'm picking that.

[00:44:17] I found that 75% of employee engagement, this is down to, you know. You've heard of Gallup, I'm sure. Mm-hmm. They're very organization, so they've done surveys of millions of employees globally. Okay. Across a hundred and something countries and, you know, over the last 15 years. So, so this is not just some random, you know, set of, you know, biased.

[00:44:41] They, they, they try to do as good a job as, as they can to make it unbiased. Right. And, and what I found was that 75% of the questions related to employee engagement relate to four things. Four things. And what, what are those things? One, the first one is clarity, because kind is clear. And [00:45:00] unkind is unclear.

[00:45:00] And that's Brene Brown who said that? The second one is care because although organizations say they care how many. Actually show it. Right? And that's something, and Simon Sinek's been talking about that for many years. But it's a, it's a, i I, I think my, my way of describing it is there's a lot of care washing going on.

[00:45:23] Okay? Mm-hmm. We've got washing, I see. Care washing. Okay. So, we start with clarity care, then we've got recognition. So to what extent are people recognize and acknowledge for what they actually do and what they're contributing and, and are they valued? Are they seen, are they seen in the workplace?

[00:45:45] And the final one is connection. And that's meaningful relationships with your, with your fellow colleagues, with your peers, with your managers, with your team. But it also extends to your [00:46:00] customers, to your suppliers, to your. Wider communities to your investors. And so the four pillars of kindness really I think, encapsulate and we can now actually measure each of these things.

[00:46:14] We can measure, how are you, are you clear or not? And it's actually much easier to say, what are the behaviors under each of these pillars? Clarity, care, recognition, and connection. 

[00:46:22] Levels of Kindness: From Self to Community
[00:46:22] Kathy Washburn: And then the levels are quite simply, kindness starts with you. So the, the core of it is you have to be kind to yourself before you can be kind to others and put on your own oxygen mask before you help others with theirs.

[00:46:36] Then kind to those around you. Okay? So that's kindness. Extending beyond you. If you're able to be kind to yourself, then how do you show up for others and. Finally, once you've shown that you can share kindness with the people around you, how do you show up for the wider communities around you? So that could be your customers, it could be your suppliers, it could be [00:47:00] your investors, and, you know, the wider communities and ultimately the planet.

[00:47:04] How do you show up for the planet? How can we show kindness to the planet? Right? So it goes out in concentric circles. The, the, I guess it's meant to show how kindness spreads from the inside out, but also how do we make it sustainable? Because I think, Kathy, you and I have talked about, and I'm sure we're gonna talk a little bit more today about it, but it's easy to get caught into the the carer mode and, and show that you care for others.

[00:47:30] But if you're pouring from an empty cup. You're not gonna be able to do that for very long. Right? So, so to, to make it, to make kindness, sustainable, and actually self perpetuating and growing and powerful, it needs to start with you and it needs to go radiate outwards from you. Dang, I love this.

[00:47:50] This model is so simple but complicated. 

[00:47:55] The Impact of Technology on Workplace Kindness
[00:47:55] Kathy Washburn: I mean the clarity, care, [00:48:00] recognition, and connection, it reminds me because I was in corporate America when technology came through and, you know, I kind of grew up trying to trying to make things better using technology. But I can also remember how disconnecting technology made.

[00:48:24] The workplace, you know, we used to all just sit and listen to one. I worked on a trading desk. So much of what we did was verbal. We talked to traders. I could hear, you know, my boss talking to somebody else. I knew what he deals he was working on. So there was this very, it was very sensory where I felt like we were able to bounce off of each other.

[00:48:48] And then all of a sudden email came and everything was done through email, so nobody could hear each other talking. And then processes [00:49:00] were automated and people, there wasn't clarity as far as what my role was. Now, I, I could see the clarity. I could, like you said, I, I could see that technology could unlock people's potential because.

[00:49:18] The processing, like took all that repetitive stuff away and now you had all this brain power and what, what were you gonna do with it? But without the clarity of this is why we're taking away, this is why we're process processing it, and this is the, the recognition that you have bigger and better things to do with your mind and your brain.

[00:49:45] That wasn't all connected. So people got lost and felt felt kind of insignificant as the processes were pulled away and there was no more [00:50:00] meaningful connections because everything was automated. So nobody was connecting that way. It, you know, in hindsight, I can see how we were just erasing kindness.

[00:50:13] And you used to feel the mood in the room, right? Mm-hmm. You sense it. I mean, I, I worked as a consultant in investment banking as well, and on the trading floor as a, as the example you're giving, you could sense the mood, right? And that would give you a sense of different markets on the different desks, right?

[00:50:31] Mm-hmm. And just even that sort of perception fed your judgment, right? Whereas we've eliminated those signals that as humans we're really a easily able to attune to and now forced to read hundreds and thousands of emails, right? And filter through so much social junk, what do you call it? What did you call that?

[00:50:57] Social? Social junk food. Yeah, social [00:51:00] junk food. Dang. 

[00:51:01] Emotional Inflammation and Self-Kindness
[00:51:01] Kathy Washburn: Like you're just gnawing on it all day long and what's happening, it's creating this enormous emotional inflammation. And this is a term that I've heard that I really kind of glbb onto because emotional unwellness feels kind of like when you have physical inflammation where you can't really put your finger on exactly what's happening or where it started.

[00:51:28] It's, it's so systemic and that's what emotional inflammation feels like. It's like where did it start? And did it start because of the chatter in my head? Did it start because that process got pulled away from me and now I don't know where I'm adding value? Did it start because I can't intuit anymore what other people are feeling and I can't sense the room?

[00:51:53] Like where did it all start? And this idea of it can start [00:52:00] so simply with self-kindness. And I once read that kindness can be an engine of respect. Hmm. And I think that showing people they're respected, showing ourselves that we respect ourselves is a hu enormous game changer. It can take that. I must please people outside of myself.

[00:52:28] I must get validation from outside of myself. This is all coming back to kind of full circle of what you were saying that if I can't show up as me and I'm so worried about what everybody else is thinking or however everybody else is thinking that, and I'm gonna just suppress my own emotions and avoid conflict so that when I don't rock the boat, it's not, we're not being on our own side and we're not being [00:53:00] kind to ourselves.

[00:53:00] So there's almost no chance that we can. Show up for others and let alone our planet. Mm-hmm. Exactly. I mean, I really like how you put that with emotional inflammation, and I hadn't heard that term in that way, but it totally resonates with me. And and you can probably counter, you know, I guess put it alongside, the more emotional inflammation we have, the less we're able to show emotional intelligence to each other, right?

[00:53:32] Mm-hmm. And, and actually if we're able to reduce the emotional inflammation, then we can let our own emotional intelligence free, right? Mm-hmm. Say that again. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. I, I think that's really, really I think that makes a lot of sense. And, and, and that, I guess that, that is at the heart of it, part of what I'm trying to get at here, and to make it something that can, to involve small steps.

[00:53:59] It was, last [00:54:00] week I was able to attend a, a fireside chat with the chief Executive Officer of British Telecoms. They have 115,000 employees you know, very big company, global. And and, and it's a woman. But what's, what's even more I guess impressive is that she never went to university.

[00:54:19] She started as an Avon lady and you know, she got herself an apprenticeship, sort of found her way into telco and managed to rise to be the CEO of, of bt. Right. And and it was interesting 'cause hearing that fireside chat one of the things that she attributes her success to is. That at one point in her career, I think she, she, she became an apprentice in accounting and got her accounting certification that way.

[00:54:48] And man became a management accountant and became eventually A CFO and then went into CEO, kind of, that was sort of her career journey. But when she was a CFO, something had gone really badly wrong at [00:55:00] one of the companies she was at in in Scandinavia that she was working with. And her mentor she went to and said, look, what, what went wrong here?

[00:55:10] What, what could I have done better? You know, I was, you know, I'm really good at the finances. I was keeping, you know, a tight ship and, you know, tight grip on, you know, all of the numbers and all that. And he's like, It's because the number one thing you need to focus on are the relationships, right?

[00:55:25] He, he's, he's like you're all over the technical side of things that your job is all about, which is CFO. But what about the people? What about your relationship with your peers, with your teams, with your leadership, with your customers? And for her, that was a big aha moment that she took to heart.

[00:55:44] And everything she did after that was all about how can I make meaningful relationships with the people that I'm working with on a day-to-day, like, and make, make myself a available to everybody at every level as much as I can, because I need to [00:56:00] know I'm, I, I'm just a, you know, I'm just a, a, a leader here.

[00:56:04] If, if, if, if I disappear. Nobody would notice in six, the business would keep running. Right. But the people who are at the, the coalface, they're the ones who the business would actually stop if they stopped doing their work. I need to know what they're going through, how they're feeling, what, what, what's on their mind, what's gonna make them a success, you know?

[00:56:23] And, and that's a huge transformation for her. Mm. Yeah. And, and, and I think, and just coming to the, the thing I was gonna say, which is that I, I was able to ask her a question about, so if relationships are so critical to you, how are you helping to embed that awareness and, and, and, and and help your next generation, the Gen Zs, the graduates, the apprentices that you have?

[00:56:49] 'cause they, they are the biggest hire of apprentices in the uk. How are you helping them to learn this lesson that relationships are so important? You know, [00:57:00] and and, and I think she, she sort. Realize this is a big challenge, right? Because a, her man, I mean, she's only been in the role for a year, so this is not something she's been there for you know, forever.

[00:57:13] She's only been at BT in this role for a year. She's like, but the managers I've realized don't themselves have those skills. So, although I'm I've, I've given them all targets to around engagement, around relationships with their teams and, and with others, right? How are they gonna be successful in doing that if they haven't had that background and training and, and mm-hmm.

[00:57:39] And so I think it's something we, we ha we have a systemic issue, which is causing emotional inflammation, right? And we need to. We need to do something about it. Right? And it, and part of it has to be kindness. It definitely has to be kindness. I think it's like, and it's [00:58:00] free and easily accessed. But what you highlight in that story is taking me back to a previous conversation that we had outside of this podcast.

[00:58:11] And that is like, data is one thing and you're a technologist. Like, you know this, I know this. Collecting data on whether it's my whoop bracelet or like getting more information that doesn't change us. 

[00:58:29] Empathy vs. Kindness: Taking Action
[00:58:29] Kathy Washburn: And you made a very clear distinction, and I'd love for you to make it again, of empathy and kindness.

[00:58:37] And I would, I think that the, the key to both of those things, there's one piece where I know you're gonna highlight it because that's where the rubber meets the road. But I'm gonna hand that to you. Can you share with me empathy and kindness? 'cause it was so perfect. Absolutely. And, and this has been a question that people have been asking me, you know, so, yeah.

[00:58:57] But I've got a lot of empathy. You know, I feel like I, [00:59:00] I, I, I feel when other people are going through things and I, I can understand and relate to that, I'm like, and, and, and, and that is empathy. Empathy is about, are you able to effectively put yourself in the shoes of someone else and, and relate to what they're going through?

[00:59:16] Right. And it is a, a, it's a mental exercise, right? Empathy is about feeling something. Okay. But for me that only goes so far because just by feeling empathy, nothing actually happens. Until you take action on it. Right? And if you take action on empathy, that is kindness. Kindness is action. But it does require you to feel, right.

[00:59:41] So empathy is, is a precursor to, to kindness, but empathy is not enough on its own, right? Mm. A lot of us may be confuse that and, well, I think because the terminology's not clear, we, we, we do tend to conflate [01:00:00] what is empathy? What is compassion? What is kindness, altruism, I, but they're all actually different things, right?

[01:00:06] Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Though there's action, action is required in kindness. And that's what I love about your app and about your framework. It's like, okay, here are these things, but unless we, we can collect all the data in the world, but. With the data. Can you be clear? Can you be, you know, can you care? Can you act on and care for one another?

[01:00:35] Can you act and recognize another? Can you act and connect with another human? Like that's where the rubber meets the road. And actually, Kathy, I think the reason is because we can have a, a dialogue in our own head and, and feel things and, you know, empathize and, you know, feel compassion, feel happiness, unhappiness, whatever.

[01:00:58] Right? [01:01:00] But that ha you know, if we wanna make an impact on others, you know, nobody is a mind reader, right? So it's not, not many people I know are at least, so you need to do something to, to actually then transmit that energy that you're feeling to the other person. And that requires you. Making yourself vulnerable, reaching out to somebody else.

[01:01:24] Maybe you, you're empathizing with somebody who's going through a tough time. Okay. 

[01:01:28] A Personal Story of Connection
[01:01:28] Kathy Washburn: I'm gonna tell you a real story that just happened today, okay? I have a next door neighbor who has been very grumpy, okay? We only moved here a few months ago, and incredibly grumpy. I don't know why we get along with most people, but she's been very, very grumpy.

[01:01:43] And you know, she just doesn't wanna interact. I'm like, that's fine. But today we run into each other on the, in the, in the elevator, sorry, not lift elevator. And I, and I said, you know, I'm gonna ask her how she's doing, even though she's been very grumpy and very, you know, basically you know, sort of dismissive [01:02:00] previously, right?

[01:02:00] I'm still gonna ask her, how are you doing? I said, we were in the, in the elevator. She said she couldn't run away. And I said, so how, how, how, how are you feeling? I said, I said, how are you feeling? Not, how are you doing? And she's like. Well, you know, my husband died at Christmas and I'm like, no, I didn't know that.

[01:02:18] And then she's on my floor. So we kept walking. She's like, and my dog also died three weeks later. And I said, oh, I had no idea. And she's like, yeah, and it's been really tough. And then she started crying basically. And this, this lady, and she's been our neighbor for six months, but I didn't know this. But now I understand more why she's been the way she has.

[01:02:39] And I had no idea. Right. But I felt, I actually felt a bit scared asking her, because she's been quite, you know, aloof, really aloof before. And I thought, well, I'm just gonna put my neck out there and ask her how she feeling today and see if anything comes back from that. And she was, she was super nice.

[01:02:58] She was actually super, and she's [01:03:00] just like, no, I'm just going through a lot, you know, still very sad. And, you know, a lot, you know, we're gonna have to sell our apartment and all this kinda stuff and, you know, so, so all of this stuff, and suddenly, and I said, what's your name? Because I'd never knew. And, and she's like, oh, what's your name?

[01:03:13] So now we know each other's names. Aw. Suddenly we've made a real connection. Right? And I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe it. The lady who's not been wanting to talk to me for six months is finally, you know, we've made a breakthrough. And, and you know, and, and I know she's going through a lot and I just didn't know what it was.

[01:03:30] Right. I didn't know what was right. But, but we don't bother to find out. And I, and I could have just been like, oh, that mean lady that lives on our floor, she's always being whatever, you know, but we, we, we have to realize everybody's going through something, right? Yeah. And you can't find out what it's, you know.

[01:03:48] Right. I, I, I often remind myself like, we will never know the things that other people worry about. And there my therapist taught [01:04:00] me a while ago about this reality check which I need to do because I am very empathetic or, i, I am very emotionally aware. I can sense people's emotions and then I turn them into stories in my own head.

[01:04:17] So she invited me to actually say you know, I'm sensing that you are upset, and the story that I'm telling myself is, and then explain it and then ask, is this true? And most of the things that were makeup in our head, the other people are like, what? No, I stunned my toe on the way in from the garage.

[01:04:41] Like, what do you, you've manifested this whole creation in the hotbed of you, and it is nothing like that. Or it is, no, it's not that, but it's this like. You can get to the heart of the matter in a [01:05:00] way that is kind by that action of reaching out and just kind of helping de can you de inflame reduce the inflammation, the emotional inflammation in my own head by inviting another human to tell me, is this true?

[01:05:24] Such beautiful work you're doing. My goodness, I hope that this hits like a, like a forest fire, just like rips through corporate America. You're in a really good sweet spot because you, you know what corporate America is and feels like and you've witnessed the positive. Influence that people can have on one another.

[01:05:54] I'm, I'm very mindful of time and I'm sorry that I went over, I'm so captivated by what you're [01:06:00] doing. If you have five more minutes, I would love it if you could just share with us the audience, the story about this positive kindness effect that you saw during COVID. 

[01:06:14] Kindness in Action During COVID
[01:06:16] Kathy Washburn: Oh, yes, absolutely. So, yeah, so when I had recovered from cancer, which was fantastic, and I, you know, was feeling well, the doctor said, yes, you know, you're, there's no sign of cancer anymore and, you know, I can go back to work full time.

[01:06:31] I was really excited. 'cause, you know, as I said, I'd left this business that was doing so well, you know, and you know, so, so really energized by going back in and, you know, helping take the business to the next level. Within KPMG, which is where I was a partner at the time, and and I went back to work, started doing, you know, getting new client opportunities and within a month of starting back at work, COVID happened, right?

[01:06:57] And it was like four weeks after I started back at work. So it [01:07:00] was like, oh, okay. And then suddenly everybody as we know was plunged into this state of uncertainty and, isolation, right? And and also something that really did impact so many people you know, well physically, right?

[01:07:16] But also people's mental health was severely mm-hmm. primarily by the isolation and uncertainty. Right. and it just made me realize, oh my gosh. I've just felt isolated and uncertain for the last two years. Mm-hmm. I've, I've learned how to cope with, with this. So, let me try and use these new skills that I've got, that I've realized I have, that I hadn't been tapping into around kindness and, and see how we can put this to good effect in business.

[01:07:44] Right. And and so we had the opportunity here in the UK to help set up the hospitals, which were called the Nightingale Hospitals, which were for COVID. They were set up across the country to deal with the, you [01:08:00] know, huge numbers of COVID cases that were emerging. And it was an initiative that had to bring together government and different companies, private sector you know, across different industries.

[01:08:12] And, you know, we were able to take part of this, and me and my team particularly, and it was done on a pro bono basis, so we were not charging any money for the, the con contribution that we made. But what was amazing was that all of these different companies and competitors as well, right? We're coming together and divvying up the problems.

[01:08:31] Okay, where can we set up this hospital? Okay, there's a conference center that's maybe underutilized, that's gonna become one of the hospitals. You know what I mean? Okay. So, so there'll be people responsible for that. There'll people responsible for the, you know, the, the, the operational side of things, the technology.

[01:08:47] So obviously I'm coming in from a technology perspective. So my, my team was able to set up together with the NHS, the National Health system an app for [01:09:00] workforce management that was able to be set up in two weeks for. Allocating resource, you know, people to nurses, doctors, et cetera, to come and work in these hospitals.

[01:09:10] And the hospitals were up and running within two and a half weeks, you know, including laying new cable to set up telecommunications and, you know what I mean? Like everything that needed to happen to set up a new hospital was done in, in a period of two and a half weeks, which was incredible, right?

[01:09:25] Including having a mobile app on people's phones that they could use, which my team was able to deliver. And that just showed to me the power of when people have clarity of purpose, right? We were all clear, we want to set up these hospitals to help people who are, you know, suffering or dying from COVID, right?

[01:09:45] Care, we cared about the outcome. We really wanted to, you know, bring, I guess, relief to those people and their families and have some way of treating them, right. Recognition. So we, we were, people were incredibly. Open [01:10:00] to acknowledge each other's skill sets and not have any these kind of egos around, oh, well I always do these things and, you know, you can't touch that.

[01:10:08] And, you know, no, it wasn't, it was like all hands to the pump. What can we do? Divvy it out, let's get it done. Right. And the human connection, I mean, I remember talking to, I mean, getting, that we have very strict privacy laws here in the UK and we're dealing with confidential data around staff of, of, of a, of a government service.

[01:10:27] Right. So, but I worked directly with the head of privacy for, you know, one of the NHS trusts to get that privacy agreement done super quick, get it all signed off, and, you know, that would've taken normally at least six months, much longer than that, right. To get that all of that done and approved.

[01:10:47] Right. And it was incredible. And it was done and we had it live and it was working. Right. The other example was we, we also then help with the. As you know, schools were not able to open anymore. And and so [01:11:00] what were the students gonna do? And there was a a small charity called Oak National Academy that sprung up outta nowhere and said, well, we've got this rinky-dink platform.

[01:11:12] Can somebody help us make it more robust? And let, let's try to get teachers from around the country to create lessons to put on this platform. So as KPMG, we helped get mobilize 9,000 teachers around the, a whole country to create lessons for this platform. And in four weeks we had 2 million new lessons deployed on this platform, and students were using it in you know, from first grade to high school basically.

[01:11:40] So, and you know, it just grew from there. People were just, you know, teachers were contributing more and more and more content and it just got bigger and bigger and, and that's how they were able to maintain you know, some level of education at the right level. And standards for students. I mean, it still of course, suffered because [01:12:00] people did not have that real human, as we know, children really suffered because they did not have their.

[01:12:05] That real human connection they needed with their teachers and with their classmates, et cetera. But at least they had, you know, they had the content and they had great you know, great lessons that were able to be deployed digitally. And it was incredible. And I, I can't believe 2 million new lessons were able to be done in four weeks.

[01:12:21] And that was down to these 9,000 teachers who volunteered their time to contribute platform. It's incredible. Right? And what can be done, what can't, what can't be done, what can't be done. I'll tell you, it can't be done when there's no action. And I love those two stories like Action, action Act, people willing to act act out kindness in so many different ways.

[01:12:46] I love that we're closing with that story. I'm so glad that you shared that. 'cause I think it's so powerful. We don't need we don't need COVID to encourage us to act. Grand things can [01:13:00] happen when we do, and COVID was indicative of that. But there, there doesn't need to be. We can, we can act right now by sharing with somebody on the elevator your heart and asking them, how are you feeling today?

[01:13:17] Final Thoughts and Future Plans
[01:13:17] Kathy Washburn: So thank you so much, Natalie. This has just been such a stunning discussion. I can't wait to share this with the audience. I always ask my guests this one last question. If I were to crush your assets up and put it into pill form, what effect would you have on someone taking that pill? Okay, well, I hope I could possibly, if I could engage, excite, and elevate people so that they.

[01:13:50] Talk their own inner kindness, because if we are able to do this together, anything is possible, literally anything. So for [01:14:00] me, that's what I, I, I wish, and in every interaction, I mean, again, I think there, there's so many things that we can do, we can say, but it's more about how we leave people feeling. And I hope I can leave people feeling excited and, and, and ready to act now with kindness.

[01:14:19] Hmm. I think anybody listening just took a little one of those pills because your, your passion and compassion are palpable. And you make me really wanna up my game in the est world. So thank you. We will have all of the links to your product and to more information in the show notes. But if you.

[01:14:44] And it's elk care.com. Is that where people Elk care.com? Yeah. Yeah. And, and probably just to mention, Kathy, it's not available yet, but I am writing a book called Kindness Pays, and it will be in the spring of next year. So look out. Yeah. So we'll have you back in the spring of [01:15:00] next year when you're promoting it.

[01:15:01] We'll talk more. Thank you. I, I am so grateful for your gift of time and the generous spirit that you're putting out into the world. Thank you so much, and I really appreciate it, and I really, really enjoyed this conversation. It's been fantastic. Thank you. Thank you. 

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