Ep. 62 - Changing Perspective in Dark Times with Andra Davidson

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When life tilts and the room goes dark, perspective is the flashlight. In this deeply practical conversation, divorce coach and mediator Andra Davidson shares how to steady yourself in hard seasons, make clear choices when emotions run hot, and rebuild with intention for yourself and your kids. You will learn simple tools to regain agency, write a mission statement you can actually use, and design a support system that holds when things get loud. 

Topics Discussed

• Emotional regulation during high conflict transitions and why it shapes outcomes
• Mission statements rooted in personal values to guide decisions under stress
• Practical co-parenting goals and communication that lowers reactivity
• Therapy versus coaching, how in the moment guidance changes results
• Designing support systems, intentional asks, and social boundary scripts

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Transcript

 Ep. 63 - Changing Perspective in Dark Times with Andra Davidson

Ep. 63 - Changing Perspective in Dark Times with Andra Davidson

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[00:02:49] Meet Andra Davidson[00:02:49] Introduction and Setting the Stage

[00:02:49] Kathy Washburn: Welcome Andra Davidson. It is so good to see you. How are you today? I'm great. I'm 

[00:02:56] AnDra Davidson: so honored to be here. Thank you for having me. 

[00:02:59] Kathy Washburn: This [00:03:00] is gonna be such a juicy conversation.

[00:03:02] Kathy Washburn: Andra and I met through a. Another colleague, my dear friend Miranda she's been on this podcast. She had a great, actually, we have a great session with Miranda about embodiment spending. But Andra and I are gonna talk a little about. Divorce. And the big D word. The big 

[00:03:22] AnDra Davidson: D word, 

[00:03:24] Kathy Washburn: And we're gonna jump in, but before I do you'll have Andre's bio and the show notes.

[00:03:30] Kathy Washburn: I'm just gonna invite you, Andre, to introduce yourself, how you're route to where you are, who you serve by answering this. Stellar prompt once upon a time. I love that prompt. It's so great. 

[00:03:45] AnDra Davidson: Yes. 

[00:03:46] Andra's Journey Through Divorce

[00:03:48] AnDra Davidson: So once upon a time I was a young bride, right at 25. I was full of a lot of optimism and [00:04:00] gratitude and excitement about the future and felt so.

[00:04:05] AnDra Davidson: That I had done the very best I could and was excited about that part of my life and was in the beginning of a lot of new firsts. My ex-husband was about to continue with medical school and residency. We were living in a new city and I felt like I was full of possibility. And that was a really wonderful place to be.

[00:04:35] AnDra Davidson: And I have a lot of gratitude for, for all of that. You know, fast forward over 20 years and. Life happenings and challenges and stressors and growth and birth of amazing twins who are now 26 years old. Which is truly hard for me to believe. But you know, [00:05:00] we got to a point where we realized that it wasn't going to work anymore.

[00:05:06] AnDra Davidson: And. That came with as I know you understand, a great deal of sadness and grief and heartbreak and overwhelm and stress. 

[00:05:19] Becoming a Divorce Coach

[00:05:19] AnDra Davidson: And part of that transition brought me to who I believe I. Grew into being in one of the most important roles that I play now, which is to help people through this process.

[00:05:33] AnDra Davidson: As a, as a divorce coach, I was really brought to my knees by the process. I was so brushed and disappointed. I really didn't know what my life could look like post-divorce. I couldn't imagine that all this time and effort and work and love and all the things that both of us truly had put into it weren't [00:06:00] going to laugh.

[00:06:02] AnDra Davidson: And that acceptance, finding acceptance there was very, very challenging for me. But. I was able to do that in part because I made a commitment that my kids needed both their parents and that together, that we didn't have to agree on everything, but we did agree on how much we loved our kids and that we could find common ground there.

[00:06:31] AnDra Davidson: And we both made a really deliberate choice. And, and I say that knowing. Not everybody has that same option. Things don't always fall out the way that it did for us. So I don't say that naively as if everybody should just make the exact same choice. But I'm grateful I could make it. And I do think probably more people could then do choose to in a lot of situations.

[00:06:57] AnDra Davidson: But I was able to do that. [00:07:00] And in doing so, I. Found what I'm supposed to be doing because I started helping some of the people that I love and care about as they found themselves in a similar situation. And one of my best friends said to me at one point I don't know how people do this without you.

[00:07:19] AnDra Davidson: And that was sort of my aha moment, you know, where I decided that this is what I need to be doing and I pivoted and re. Adjusted to a new career. I was in communication, so it was a leap. But you know, there were also some, some ru, you know, strings that made a lot of sense. And now I'm collaboratively trained and I'm a mediator and I'm a certified divorce coach, and I work with men and women who really wanna get through this process as their best self.

[00:07:56] AnDra Davidson: Who want to come out and [00:08:00] regain their footing and their confidence and their strength and do the best they can for their kids and themselves. And I call my company better than before divorce because I think you can be and I wanna help people get to that place. So it's a sort of a long answer, but I hope that's, you know, the direction you were, you were looking for in that.

[00:08:22] Kathy Washburn: It certainly is, and I just wish that I had you back then when I was going through the, the same thing. 

[00:08:31] Emotional Challenges and Support

[00:08:31] Kathy Washburn: And before anybody decides to like hit pause or delete or go find another podcast 'cause you're not divorced or you're not thinking about divorce, stop, stay with us because I think what we're gonna talk about is applicable in so many different areas.

[00:08:48] Kathy Washburn: Yeah. And. Divorce. Like if you're in a relationship, you know what conflict is in a relationship. Yeah. And if you're in the, in a [00:09:00] transition or at a, at a threshold, like there are pieces of wisdom that apply in all of them for sure. One that I, I thought about a lot. I love your I love your email or your blog.

[00:09:15] Kathy Washburn: It is called. Can you tell me what it's divorce is a shit sandwich. Yes. Yeah. I mean just anybody can put replace divorce with anything but this. These kind of hard transitions Yeah. Are made harder because we're often at our like. I don't wanna say our worst, but when I was going through divorce and Yeah, and when I was going through cancer, I was being asked to make decisions for my future self when I couldn't even see who that version of me.

[00:09:50] Kathy Washburn: And I didn't even really have hope that there was of future version of me. You can't imagine 

[00:09:56] AnDra Davidson: what it looks like. Right. And I say that all the time [00:10:00] actually, Kathy, that it's so. Ironic that we are making, you know, we are supposed to be at our decision making best when we are feeling at our emotional worst.

[00:10:13] AnDra Davidson: Hmm. These decisions have big consequences for our life. And so showing up with, without any kind of ability to, you know, regulate, e evaluate the decisions be grounded and, and. Check them against something that is, other than, you know, somebody's opinion Right? Is really asking a lot of anybody to go through this without that kind of emotional support.

[00:10:45] AnDra Davidson: It's, it's really a reality. That emotional wellbeing, which I know is your sweet spot is so important through this process because it directly impacts the. Ability to [00:11:00] make the best decisions for our future. And yet so few people realize that that emotional regulation and investing time, energy, money, resources in getting there is a really important part of the divorce process or transition process.

[00:11:21] AnDra Davidson: To your point, you know, you're exactly right that this isn't just. Divorce. That is an area that you know, I focus on, but this applies to major life transitions for sure. 

[00:11:34] Kathy Washburn: Yeah. And I think they, even to your the beginning of your story, even as a 25-year-old, you know, bright-eyed, naive I've got the Cinderella Cinderella story playing out here.

[00:11:48] Kathy Washburn: They, even those transitions like I think we often ignore, or, or maybe it's just naivety that, oh, we gotta build some scaffolding for this [00:12:00] new. Yeah, ex that I'm stepping into marriage. A new mom, so 

[00:12:06] AnDra Davidson: Right. All of it. All of it. Gosh. And as a young person, right, you just don't know what you don't know. You don't at any age, you don't know what you don't know, right?

[00:12:15] AnDra Davidson: So, you know, to, to arm yourself with tools is. A real gift. 

[00:12:21] Kathy Washburn: Yes. 

[00:12:21] Practical Guidance for Clients

[00:12:22] Kathy Washburn: And it's I think it's easier now in our day and age where you could just Google it up or, but what are some things that you do when you work with individuals to help them feel that they actually do have some agency in what is happening in the moment?

[00:12:40] AnDra Davidson: Yeah, it's such a great question. There are a couple things that I really love to do with clients to help them. Get re-grounded and find their confidence again. And one of them is to simply start by recognizing the overwhelm, right? Recognizing the reality of the [00:13:00] emotional dysregulation that's taking place.

[00:13:02] AnDra Davidson: Even if you chose the divorce. It is still a process of grieving and letting go and transitioning, right? And that can come with some guilt in some cases. There are still a ton of logistics that come with it. So this isn't just for people who, you know, something, it happened to them, right? This is also for people who recognize that this relationship is no longer serving them.

[00:13:30] AnDra Davidson: Leaving that situation is hard. It takes a lot of, it takes a lot of strength and bravery to make a decision like that. So I give those people a ton of credit. That is not an easy decision to make. Right? That has ripple effects out into all kinds of different areas. So one of the first things that I really like to do with clients is help them realize that there are.

[00:13:53] AnDra Davidson: All these different emotions occurring at the same time and accept and sort of just be in that place. I think [00:14:00] one of the greatest challenges that I see, and I know you do, is when we just try to push through things and push them down and ignore that they're there. Right? And we know that doesn't work. They'll come back later and in this process, acknowledging them gives you.

[00:14:19] AnDra Davidson: That recognition and that ability to say, okay, I, I'm in that place, but it's not who I am. And it will pass, as you say, right? It will pass and then I can still continue to make good choices. So that first place of recognition and sort of just this acceptance of, I'm gonna be with my emotions as I go through this and I don't have to feel like.

[00:14:47] AnDra Davidson: Getting through this means pushing them away and, and not being sad or grieving or overwhelmed or angry or all the things. That is one piece. And the [00:15:00] next is to, I'd love setting goals with clients, right? Not just long-term goals. In five years, I wanna be traveling the world or whatever, which I think are awesome because he gives you a reason to be.

[00:15:13] AnDra Davidson: A little bit optimistic and keep your chin up and remember that there's a future that you deserve and that is out there for you, but also to do short-term goals. What do, even in three months, what? What might feel good to you? Maybe it's that you are finally sleeping through the night that you've started exercising again.

[00:15:36] AnDra Davidson: That that feels good to you, that you have gone away for the weekend by yourself for the first time. You've reached out to a friend you haven't talked to in a while. What are some short term things that you can do to feel like you said, you're in control again, of some of your choices, and then, you know, build on that with [00:16:00] what does that look like in a year, and then three and five years maybe, so that you start to have something that you're working towards, something that gives you some purpose and direction as you're making choices when you go through it.

[00:16:12] AnDra Davidson: Hmm. And another thing I love to do is create a divorce mission statement or Wow. Um, The process, right to help guide you in making choices as you go through it. If one of your guiding principles is, I'm gonna try to be the healthiest co-parent I can be, I'm gonna not bad mouth the other parent, I am going to.

[00:16:40] AnDra Davidson: Say yes to my kids as often as possible. For example, maybe, you know, things like that. And as you go through the divorce, then I love that mission statement to serve as a sounding board for you as you make choices. Does this meet with the standards and the values that I've put together for [00:17:00] this? How do I wanna show up and does it help me meet those goals or not?

[00:17:05] AnDra Davidson: And if it doesn't, it's kind of an easy answer, right? For. Nope, I'm not gonna make that choice. The other thing about that that I really love is that when you know it's in the back of your mind, I actually like to print it out, put it on your computer, in your car, on your phone, right? Wherever you are. So it's just there as a reminder.

[00:17:27] AnDra Davidson: Then it makes you pause as you're going through the process to think about it, which helps you to redirect whatever. You know, is triggering you at that moment, right? So even just that pause of, I'm gonna stop, I'm gonna think about this instead of that can help get you to a better place. Even if it's not, you know, perfect.

[00:17:51] AnDra Davidson: Certainly that is not the goal. It doesn't have to be, it rarely is. But for you to build in those pauses and, [00:18:00] recharge and reset your mind around something like, at least acknowledging I have a choice in this moment of how I respond can make a huge difference. So there's that side of what I do.

[00:18:12] AnDra Davidson: And then there's also some logistical support, helping people build their team organize their questions. Figure out, you know, how to prioritize, take all the must-dos as I call them, and break them down into smaller chunks so you can get through them. You know, there's that side of it too that can be really, really valuable because it is overwhelming.

[00:18:35] Kathy Washburn: It certainly is. 

[00:18:36] Therapy vs. Coaching

[00:18:52] Kathy Washburn: And I, I was gonna ask you like, it sounds an awful lot, like you're kind of a therapist almost, and I just heard a really big distinction. And in that like, yes, I'm sure you do a lot of guiding therapy, guiding in that emotional capacity and. [00:19:00] There is something really powerful about having somebody that's A gone through it and b can help with the actual process of divorce, which is like a job for a certain period of time.

[00:19:14] Kathy Washburn: It really is, and a, a therapist can help with a piece of that, but not. It's, it's like dropping in a dark hole. I remember googling something about just the law, like I didn't even know what I was, what I was dealing with as far as 

[00:19:32] AnDra Davidson: the law, like what? It was so complicated. The process is so overwhelming.

[00:19:37] AnDra Davidson: For sure. And I think it's a really great point that there is an important distinction between therapy and coaching. And I'm really glad you brought that up. There is an important distinction and I'm not a therapist. There is guidance for sure. And. At the same time, we're generally not spending time like a therapist would, looking at the history, right?

[00:19:58] AnDra Davidson: And past [00:20:00] relationships with parents or family members or really even your ex, except there's some pieces that come in, obviously when we're talking about triggers and current things that are impacting the process, but. We're not going back and analyzing those pieces or doing any kind of diagnosis or really, you know, examining relationship patterns.

[00:20:22] AnDra Davidson: Right. And there's a really important role for that. And I am a, you know, big believer in therapy. I love therapy and that's different than what I'm doing. Which is, to your point, much more day-to-day and present moment focused. You probably go to your therapist once a week for an hour, maybe twice a week sometimes.

[00:20:44] AnDra Davidson: I'm really in the thick of it with my clients all week texting, reading emails, helping them to draft emails and communications, reading over it to make sure that it didn't miss anything or that they got all the points [00:21:00] they wanted in there. Texting in between. I'm about to walk into a difficult, you know, interaction.

[00:21:05] AnDra Davidson: I'm thinking, remind me of my I call a power statement, which we can talk about, you know, this little mantra or prayer or song lyric or anything that you have that just reminds you of your, your strength that you can call upon as you need. So those kinds of things are really in the moment, hands on.

[00:21:27] AnDra Davidson: Different than a therapist usually is. So, I, it, it is an important distinction. 

[00:21:33] Kathy Washburn: Yes. And thank you for that, that expansiveness that a coach helps. And I just had I've had a couple of clients, potential clients, and when I tell them, you know, how much. The transformation costs. That's kind of how I try to refer to it as.

[00:21:51] Kathy Washburn: Yeah. And, and they're like, ah, you know, that's a big investment. And I say. We're meeting three times a month, and I'm [00:22:00] available all month because I don't want you to tell me in our next session how you sent that email and you're 

[00:22:08] AnDra Davidson: exactly, and 

[00:22:09] Kathy Washburn: you stressed out about it for 30 hours and you're anxious and you don't know.

[00:22:13] Kathy Washburn: I wanna talk to you before you hit send. I want you to have somebody there with you. Yes, and I remember that feeling when I was going through my divorce. First of all, I don't know why I chose a male. Lawyer, but the whole room was all males. Mm. And I had this sense. And again, this goes back to that like we're, we're entering these moments where we have to make these grand decisions and I felt like, okay, I am surrounding myself with, and I'm paying a lot of money for people that, have my best interest in mind. It's kind of, it was similar to when I went through cancer and I thought, well, doc, here are the keys to the castle. You just let me know when you're finished building it and [00:23:00] I'll take responsibility back. But I realized very quickly that this lawyer who you know, likely had my best interest in mind, but also was in the business of trying to make a deal and.

[00:23:16] Kathy Washburn: Align with the law. Yeah. Which might have not been in my best interest. And there was this moment where I remember thinking, oh, I gotta get my act together. Like this guy, he's, he's not gonna do it for me. Like, I have to have some investment. And I would've loved to have some with like you by my side, even in when I was going through cancer.

[00:23:42] Kathy Washburn: Somebody like that. That was. Okay. Look at me in the eye and say, I know what you're going through. I know what, like, here, let me paint that picture of the future for you. Let me break things down in easier pieces. Yeah. Let's let's give you. I [00:24:00] love this idea of a mission statement a divorce mission statement.

[00:24:03] Kathy Washburn: I work a lot, like one of my favorite practices, I just did a bl podcast about it, is your values. And a lot of women come to me and I say, what are your core values? And they're like, huh, never heard that. Just not 

[00:24:17] AnDra Davidson: an exercise. I do the same thing. And then we build the mission statement on those, right?

[00:24:22] AnDra Davidson: Because when you're being guided, to your point by those. Core values and you're thinking of them, they're front and center. It just makes decision making easier, right? It just, it grounds you. Okay? If I am gonna, my value is integrity, or my value is creativity, or you know, my value is honesty or whatever, wholeheartedness, competitiveness, I don't know.

[00:24:51] AnDra Davidson: Whatever drives you. You can bring those things to whatever it is that you're facing, but sometimes you need [00:25:00] some support. And I give you a lot of credit for sitting in that room and realizing that, you know, you turned over a lot of those decisions right? To these people around the table. And I'm sure they did have your best interest.

[00:25:14] AnDra Davidson: And I mean, that's one of the things lawyers do well is they zealously advocate for you. That is their job. But sometimes. If we haven't gotten clear about what we are asking them to do as that advocacy, as part of that advocacy, then they're left to fill in the blank, right? And assume that they know exactly what it is and they, they aren't.

[00:25:39] AnDra Davidson: There's no malice in there. It's just that they don't necessarily know what it is and how to really get to that sweet spot of what is it that you want. And if we know that. The whole game changes. Mm. When you've done that work ahead of time and you can say, you know, it is more important to me to [00:26:00] come out of this and be able to co-parent and know I'm gonna be able to, you know, stand next to my ex in the same room at my kids, this, that, or the other things, graduations, weddings, major events, whatever than it is that we fight to the death over a coffee table.

[00:26:18] AnDra Davidson: That can be a guiding. Point. Right. And sometimes though, that has to get articulated because otherwise it can just go down a rabbit hole that nobody's happy with. 

[00:26:30] Kathy Washburn: Mm Gosh. That is so powerful. And I see in reflection, I certainly didn't know this when I was going through divorce, how unclear I was because I was in my mad people pleasing, trying to avoid conflict, don't speak up, and I didn't know what my values were. I knew that I was trying to create the financial future that I worked really hard for and yeah, to protect that for my children. But [00:27:00] other than that I was kind of 

[00:27:02] AnDra Davidson: thrown. But there are different ways to get there, right?

[00:27:04] AnDra Davidson: So, you know, that's part of that taking the agency back. 

[00:27:10] Kathy Washburn: Yeah. 

[00:27:11] AnDra Davidson: And having someone help you figure out, okay, what could that look like? Here is your goal, you know, to be financially secure down the road. What does financial security look like? It looks different for different people, right? Maybe that means.

[00:27:24] AnDra Davidson: Having an Airstream and being able to drive all around the country for you and do the things that you want. Maybe that means a house. Maybe that means being able to travel x number of months per year. Everybody has their own North Star when it comes to their own security, and our job as the support team is to help you figure out what that looks like for you and then figure out how you could get there and, and is that realistic?

[00:27:48] AnDra Davidson: And how might we, how might we make that happen? 

[00:27:52] Self-Love and Personal Growth

[00:27:52] Kathy Washburn: I can just imagine how powerful this work is to do while in the [00:28:00] midst of the, let's call it the trauma, you know, like it is trauma. Yeah. To honor yourself in that, and I, and I had witnessed many dear friends go through divorce and just get. Absolutely crushed by the system because they were so feeling so lower than a snake, snake belly is what one friend first should describe.

[00:28:28] Kathy Washburn: That's a good, that's a great expression. Yeah. And I can't help but feel that there is this element. Lacking in that moment, and I know why, but it's this skipping the step of self-love or self-care. And it's really hard in the midst of, especially if you have little kids and you're trying to juggle it all.

[00:28:50] Kathy Washburn: But do you have kind of that self-love stage of transition in this? Is there that language or? 

[00:28:58] AnDra Davidson: Very much so. Right. [00:29:00] It is. Truly, it's at the center of all of this, right? Because part of the challenge for so many people, and interestingly I will say this is not just for women. I find this to be the case for men as well.

[00:29:16] AnDra Davidson: So many people don't believe that they are deserving of a loving partnership, future world. You name it, that core belief. We don't deserve to feel good and joyful and happy and fulfilled ripples out into every decision that we make when it's missing. And one of the biggest challenges that I see when people go through this is struggling so much with the pain.

[00:29:52] AnDra Davidson: Of the loneliness and the separation that they want immediately to fill it right. With another partner [00:30:00] or, you know, go out and date. And believe me, I understand. I felt like that too. There's so much sadness, but part of the greatest growth and transformation that I see. Is when people are willing to pause at that place instead of run out to fill it with somebody else and something else when you haven't thought through what it really is that you're looking for and who is the right person.

[00:30:30] AnDra Davidson: Because the truth is, until you are enough for yourself, you're never going to fill that hole. Is never gonna be filled by another person. It, it, they will be insufficient in some other way. You're very likely to repeat similar things if you don't really decide, you know, what worked about this and what didn't.

[00:30:57] AnDra Davidson: Right? What, and to think about [00:31:00] what, okay, so even if, which doesn't really happen. But even if it was all one sided and it was completely the other person who brought this. Situation to bear as it is today, and you don't address what you are looking for, right? And what got you to that place, perhaps then it's gonna be very hard to change it up when you go forward, because that's what you know and that's what you've experienced.

[00:31:32] AnDra Davidson: And it's just human nature to sort of go to that comfort zone, right? So to challenge that process and say. What about my choices contributed to this? That doesn't mean you deserved to be treated a certain way. That doesn't mean that you know you did something wrong. It means you're a human being who brought your own stuff right to a [00:32:00] relationship the same way the other person did.

[00:32:02] AnDra Davidson: And when you're thinking about that and aware of it and willing to. Examine it. It gives you options. Then you get to look and say, maybe that's not exactly what I want. Maybe I want something different next time. Maybe I wanna be by myself. Maybe I don't want to go look for somebody else. Right. Maybe, you know, I think a lot of people would.

[00:32:27] AnDra Davidson: Tell you that they are very well served by taking some time to figure out what's meaningful to them, to reconnect with themselves and build in that self-love and recharge before they go and fill it. That hole that is understandably there with just another person because it, it numbs the pain. 

[00:32:51] Kathy Washburn: Hmm. Yeah.

[00:32:53] Kathy Washburn: And it's, it's almost as if skipping that step just keeps you in the [00:33:00] cauldron of whatever it is that yeah, you're might be avoiding, exactly. Instead, you had a beautiful blog post I think it was titled the hundred Things or Mm. Yeah. Like, and I just, I looked at it, I thought, wow, okay. 

[00:33:17] Reflecting on Self-Attributes

[00:33:17] Kathy Washburn: I've never actually thought about a hundred things that I would like in another person, but as you're speaking, I'm wondering if I could go back and do that exercise about a hundred things that I admire in myself.

[00:33:30] Kathy Washburn: Self. Oh, wouldn't that be the be? Oh my gosh, a hundred seems like a 

[00:33:35] AnDra Davidson: really big number. It's a big number. But even if you got to 75, wouldn't that be amazing even if you got 50? Yeah. And so just to elaborate on that exercise, this was something that a dear friend told me after her divorce that someone had told her.

[00:33:52] AnDra Davidson: So I don't know that I even know the origin of this awesome idea to begin with. 

[00:33:56] Manifesting Your Ideal Partner

[00:33:56] AnDra Davidson: But it it's that you take. Some time to sit down and think about the hundred attributes that you would really like to see. In a future partner. Right? And that's where it came from. When she started dating again, before she started dating, her friend said, do this.

[00:34:14] AnDra Davidson: Right? She feels like she manifested her new partner. Honestly, I kind of feel like that too with mine. That I did take the time to do that. 

[00:34:24] The Power of Self-Discovery

[00:34:24] AnDra Davidson: But I absolutely love the idea of doing it for yourself. And thinking through that, and I have something that's similar that I give people called like a 30 day best self scavenger hunt with questions every day about.

[00:34:43] AnDra Davidson: What are things that you can go rediscover or learn about yourself over this 30 days to remind yourself of your strengths and your energy and your positivity and the contributions that you make to the world, and what lights [00:35:00] you up and how you might bring that back. As part of this transition, how you might rediscover that and bring it to the forefront of your life.

[00:35:08] AnDra Davidson: So it's different, but it's got a lot of parallels, and I really just love, love, love the idea of coming up with those attributes for yourself. I think it's even more powerful than coming them up with them for somebody else. They're both valuable, but starting with yourself is. So meaningful. 

[00:35:27] Kathy Washburn: Yeah. 

[00:35:27] Positive Emotions and Broaden-and-Build Theory

[00:35:31] Kathy Washburn: And at that time, you know, Barbara f Freden talks about this, um, broaden and build.

[00:35:33] Kathy Washburn: So when you're thinking about the good then our positive emotions are designed to open us up to allow us to see other options, people's point of views versus being yeah, overly negative. Which it's a time when there's a lot of negative stuff going on. Exactly. And that keeps us in this tunnel vision where we just, we can't even [00:36:00] see, I mean, they say in the research that your peripheral vision is actually reduced when you're in.

[00:36:05] Digging Deeper into Desires

[00:36:05] Kathy Washburn: So to prop yourself up in those moments, and I love the hundred because it. Hearkens back to another research where you have to ask the question again and again and again and again to actually get beneath all of the shells the. You know, armor, however you wanna put it. Yes. You have to keep digging.

[00:36:30] Kathy Washburn: Right? You have to keep digging. So a hundred doesn't seem so, like maybe the first 15 or the, you know, the outer shells. I want him to have blue eyes. I want him to Yes. You know. Exactly. You dig deeper. 

[00:36:43] Specific Attributes in a Partner

[00:36:43] Kathy Washburn: It's like, I actually want him to be able to stare at me in my eyes and hold my gaze. I don't want 'em to look 

[00:36:49] AnDra Davidson: aside.

[00:36:50] AnDra Davidson: So, that's right. So specific I put on there. Willing to sleep with the windows open at night. That [00:37:00] was like, I like that. It felt, you know, just authentic to me and who I wanna be, and I like that fresh air. And so I put that down. They, they, they aren't just the superficial, you know, things, right? They're so much more substantive and everything from.

[00:37:17] AnDra Davidson: Financially secure or independent to kids. No kids. Older kids, younger kids, willingness to have kids, I don't know, whatever floats your boat on those areas, but to really think through them means you're giving yourself time that you deserve to think about what fills you up. You're not just willing to say, anybody fits this bill.

[00:37:42] AnDra Davidson: They don't. You deserve. To find the person that feels right for you and to think through what that looks like maybe for the first time. Right? 

[00:37:53] Self-Compassion and Forgiveness

[00:37:53] AnDra Davidson: I mean, I thought I did that, but I was 25 years old, right? I mean, really, what do we, I, I did the best I could with what I knew at the time, and I, that's a place of.

[00:38:05] AnDra Davidson: Gratitude and forgiveness for myself now, you know? Mm. That I think is important for people too, right? Oh my gosh. They go back and beat themselves up. I should have coulda, woulda, I should have known. I should have seen. I wish I'd done. I wish that that's understandable. I mean, I think we've all been there.

[00:38:26] AnDra Davidson: It's very hard not to do that. And I also think you get to a point where, hopefully. You can look at yourself and say, truly, I, I did do the best I could with what I had in that moment and the knowledge that I had, the age that I was, the support I had, whatever, all those factors really matter. The fact that I had young kids, old kids special needs situations, who knows.

[00:38:48] AnDra Davidson: Right? I did the best I could and now I'm doing the best I can today too. And they might not be the same. 

[00:38:57] Kathy Washburn: Right. I, I remember having a conversation with my [00:39:00] accountant, it might have been shortly after the divorce or at the tail end of it. And I said, gosh, you know, I really screwed that up. Like, what a disaster.

[00:39:11] Kathy Washburn: And he got really quiet. He'd been our accountant for 20, the 25 years we were married. And he said, Kathy, you were married for 25 years. You can't call that a disaster. And I was like. He said, tell me five good things and you can, oh, I love that he did that for you. He's like, you can include your two sons in that, but it's, you don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

[00:39:37] Kathy Washburn: It didn't work out like, let's just call it what it is. It's not a disaster. And I was so grateful for that conversation. 

[00:39:46] AnDra Davidson: Yeah, that's a, that's a real gift and, and I love that he was a professional in a place of trust, you know, with a lot of. Influence and he chose to use it to help you. [00:40:00] Be kinder to yourself.

[00:40:01] AnDra Davidson: That's awesome. And, and I think that that is a role that we can play for each other in so many ways. Whether it's an official role of trust or, or not. That I love that he did that for you. I. I hope that as friends, we do that for each other, right? And we know we're harder on ourselves than most of our friends are on us.

[00:40:21] AnDra Davidson: One of the things I say to people all the time is talk to yourself like you would talk to your best friend, right? If your best friend came to you and said, I cannot believe you know that I didn't see this, that I didn't do this sooner, would you say you moron? How, you know what an idiot. Yeah. Go, go.

[00:40:40] AnDra Davidson: You know, at home. Go home and punish yourself. You know? Don't ever come out for another month, right? I mean, oh my gosh, no, I speak for their friend, or as someone they love that way. Ever. Why do we get to talk to ourselves that way we get, you know, give ourselves some compassion for we're human.

[00:40:57] AnDra Davidson: We're figuring things out as we go too. And [00:41:00] truly we're, we're. I believe most people deserve the benefit of good intent most of the time. 

[00:41:07] Kathy Washburn: Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. 

[00:41:11] Learning from Past Relationships

[00:41:12] Kathy Washburn: Something you said earlier really hit it for me. There's this idea when you start dating after divorce, which is so prickly, especially as you get older and there's sometimes if you haven't done this work.

[00:41:28] Kathy Washburn: And I really, I, I agree wholeheartedly. If you haven't done the work on yourself, if you haven't tried to fall in love with who you are in this moment and found the beautiful attributes, then there is a higher risk that you might just find the same person in a different body. Yeah. But what you said earlier this idea of, okay, well that didn't work out.

[00:41:53] Kathy Washburn: What did I like about myself and that new interaction, that new relationship? What did I [00:42:00] like about the other person? What I, what did I not like about that other person? What yeah did I like about myself to learn from and grow from? And I think that love to me is this idea or agreement that we're gonna grow together.

[00:42:21] Kathy Washburn: You know? Yeah. That there is this gift of understanding myself through another person's mirror, the mirror that they're holding up to me. Yeah. And not avoid that. That opportunity to see myself. So I, I kind of joke, a lot of my friends think that I'm writing a book about post-traumatic growth, but they're like, you really should write this one.

[00:42:44] Kathy Washburn: And it started from this song, from this beautiful artist, Heather Maloney. She wrote the song called Albert One through Five. And it was basically about. The monkeys that after she read an article about the monkeys that we send up into space [00:43:00] that are on suicide missions, and they're not even given their own names.

[00:43:04] Kathy Washburn: They're just Albert one, Albert two, Albert three. Oh. So I started journaling after I was, this is very early when I first started dating. I started journaling when I met somebody and. It might've been one date, might've been a couple months, whatever they were my Alberts and what I learned about myself with them.

[00:43:28] Kathy Washburn: So, my ex-husband was Albert Zero, and I spent a lot of time. Kind of identifying what it was when I first met him. God, I just loved his his freedom. Like he was so wild and I loved that. I was so rigid. So everything about that I loved. But then when he stayed that way and we had little babies, I was like, no, you can't go away for the day, play football and watch football.

[00:43:57] Kathy Washburn: It changes, doesn't it? It's changed, [00:44:00] but we, we weren't growing together. We were just kind of growing statically. But I do think this invitation. To let it be okay. Like, okay, that date didn't work out. Yeah. That doesn't mean I'm a horrible person, doesn't mean they're a horrible person. It's like, it's just helping me add to my list of a hundred.

[00:44:19] Kathy Washburn: What do I like? That's right. It's just information gathering. Right. Just information. 

[00:44:24] AnDra Davidson: Yeah. You, you take from it. And if you look at it like that, that I'm gonna, it's, it's almost like, you know, when you tell somebody like my, my stepdaughters. Interviewing for jobs right now, 

[00:44:35] Kathy Washburn: right? 

[00:44:36] AnDra Davidson: And even if that's so hard, right?

[00:44:38] AnDra Davidson: She's college grad hard. It's such a hard time. And even if that job doesn't work out, though, she's gathering information about how to interview, what are some good questions to ask? How people respond when she asks a certain question. You know, where she's comfortable, what she's not, what she likes about an organization, what she doesn't, and you can apply those same kinds of [00:45:00] things in this, right?

[00:45:00] AnDra Davidson: You just can, if you're willing to reflect back on it, you can do that same kind of thing. What did I learn from this situation that I wanna apply next time? What do I like about the way I showed up? The other person showed up, didn't, what don't I like? I mean, just. Not to beat yourself up, but just to make choices.

[00:45:22] Kathy Washburn: Yeah, that's a beautiful gift. 

[00:45:24] Post-Divorce Support Systems

[00:45:24] Kathy Washburn: Do you stay with the clients after they get divorced you, or is your time with them just through that process? 

[00:45:33] AnDra Davidson: It depends on what they need. There are some clients actually who. Come to me post tore, meaning the divorce is finalized, but they might be having co-parenting issues that have brought them back to lawyers or, you know, that they're in conflict for some other issue.

[00:45:51] AnDra Davidson: Most of the time that's around kids, if it's post the divorce, but it depends on each. Clients' needs [00:46:00] sometimes, you know, we'll get through the process, they'll get to that point and they're good. And sometimes you know, we continue on to talk about co-parenting and some of the other issues that come up.

[00:46:09] AnDra Davidson: So, the beauty of that is that it can be flexible. You know, I can really respond to each person as they need it. 

[00:46:16] Kathy Washburn: Yeah. I feel like divorce is one of those weird situations where. The before and after. It's like one of those events where you're like, oh, my life before, my life after. And the, it's so hard to be a changed person in an unchanged environment.

[00:46:35] Kathy Washburn: And I, I remember that swimming in this like, oh, we have these together friends and Yeah, who are we hanging out with and how are we hanging out with them? Like, who do I write down as my emergency contact? I remember that just being so traumatic. That's a big one. 

[00:46:54] AnDra Davidson: I know so often that one really throws people right to, yeah, to [00:47:00] update your beneficiaries on your insurance and change those, you know, in case of emergency contacts and who is going to do it.

[00:47:08] AnDra Davidson: And sometimes those. Seemingly small things are the big triggers that make the process really hard. 

[00:47:16] Kathy Washburn: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:47:17] Intentionality in Building Support

[00:47:17] Kathy Washburn: How do you advise people in building supportive relationships or, or even understanding that some people might not be the supportive relationship that you need right now? 

[00:47:31] AnDra Davidson: Yeah, it is very tough because relationships do often shift through this process.

[00:47:37] AnDra Davidson: And in some ways. You can look at it as a good thing. You're gonna find out who's really there for you. You're gonna know. I recommend being very intentional about setting up a support system. I like to advise people to think about a person in their life who has their back a hundred percent.

[00:47:58] AnDra Davidson: You know, who is that go-to person for [00:48:00] you, and then to actually say to them, I might need more from you during this time. Can I ask that of you? Do you mind and then being intentional about those asks with your support person. So I, I like to align the asks with things that you need. So for example, if one of your goals might be, you know, I need to work out.

[00:48:23] AnDra Davidson: Three to five days a week. Okay. How might you align your asks to make that happen? So does that mean somebody helps you maybe with carpool on a given day so that you can get a workout in, or that they bring dinner over so that you can go after work? Or that you schedule meetings so you can go for do something during lunch?

[00:48:42] AnDra Davidson: But really being intentional about those things for yourself helps you. To let other people help you too, right? So if you say to those people in your life, you know, what I really need is dinner a couple nights a week because I don't have it in me [00:49:00] to cook, but I want decent food around my house.

[00:49:03] AnDra Davidson: Could you possibly bring me dinner next week, one night? Because people generally do wanna help, especially, right? You know, the ones who love you. And if, if you are willing to say, I actually would really appreciate if you could, you know, do this thing. They, they like that typically. And it's so, it, it meets everybody's needs.

[00:49:23] AnDra Davidson: So I really recommend intentionality around the support and asking for it. Another example is if you are going into a social situation that could be complicated. Set it up to protect yourself. Maybe you drive your own car, maybe you go with someone and say, listen, if you see me talking to X person for such a time, can you come rescue me?

[00:49:48] AnDra Davidson: Having some messages in your back pocket to help you answer some of the common questions. Oh, what happened? You know, really, let's see. Short of, you [00:50:00] know, it's none of your damn business, which you and certainly stay if you choose to. It might be nice to have a response, right? Oh, I saw such and such out with so and so and whatever.

[00:50:12] AnDra Davidson: You know, if you anticipate that some of that stuff might come up based on the social event you're going to, or the social circle. Maybe you say, I'm only here for 30 minutes, but I'm really glad I could check in. I have another obligation just. Set yourself up to be successful as much as possible. And all of those things take intention, right?

[00:50:33] AnDra Davidson: They just take some planning and thought ahead of time and, and I really encourage it because it gives you back confidence and control. You will feel better if you walk into a tough situation with that in your head. 

[00:50:46] Kathy Washburn: Hmm. Yeah. 

[00:50:48] Preparing for Difficult Situations

[00:50:48] Kathy Washburn: I recently, you remind me, I recently was working with a friend of mine and she was, have you ever heard of the EFT tapping?

[00:50:55] Kathy Washburn: Yeah, sure. It's a, it's a way that you can regulate your nervous [00:51:00] system. Right. But she uses it in a way to set your nervous system up for difficult situations. Hmm. So it's. 

[00:51:09] AnDra Davidson: Proactively. 

[00:51:10] Kathy Washburn: Yeah. Right. And, and we use something in the positive psychology, in the positive intelligence world where we call it preempt the saboteur.

[00:51:18] Kathy Washburn: So you actually kind of play it out in your, in your mind, in that different way, which is similar to what the tapping would do. It's imagining as if you're going through that and being that. Version of yourself where you can see yourself saying, I just wanted to stop by for 30 minutes just to say hi.

[00:51:39] Kathy Washburn: It's so good to see you. Peace out. Let me get outta here. But your nervous system is already like, oh yeah, we got this. We already played this in our head and it's so powerful. And I love what you were talking about, about intention because it kind of marries that piece of yeah. [00:52:00] Values or having your mission statement, like, how am I gonna play this out?

[00:52:05] Kathy Washburn: To my, almost like to help my future self, like, 

[00:52:09] AnDra Davidson: oh, for sure. Do you, are you a Ted Lasso fan? 

[00:52:12] Kathy Washburn: Oh, I love him, yes. If you see my Instagram, I think I have more Ted lasso on my Instagram than I have Kathy 

[00:52:17] AnDra Davidson: Washburn. Me too. Oh my gosh. I just, right. So you probably remember I believe it was season two when Rebecca was telling Keely how she goes into a room full of men.

[00:52:34] AnDra Davidson: As a woman in that leadership space as a chairwoman of the club. Right. And she has to walk into these tough boardrooms with all of these men. And she goes into the bathroom, and I think it was Nate actually too, who she was with. So she goes into the bathroom and she makes herself big. She stands up and she makes herself physically big.

[00:52:57] AnDra Davidson: And she yells and she [00:53:00] moves her arms and you know, and. She gains her power by doing that physically. Right. And that is an example I love because she sets herself up to walk in there, calm, confident, and on strong ground. You're not gonna just be able to, you know, knock me over as the one woman in this room.

[00:53:24] AnDra Davidson: Right. I think whatever. That's kind of where that power statement that I mentioned comes in. That's her power statement, right? That's her power move. She does that to get herself strong. What could anybody do to put themselves in that kind of frame of mind? Where I deserve to be here. I am strong, I am confident.

[00:53:45] AnDra Davidson: I have every right to contribute my opinion and assert. My values in this conversation and in this room, and whether that's a prayer, a song lyric, a poem, [00:54:00] a physical act. Do something that gives you that strength and energy as you walk into whatever challenge you know, you might have. Any difficult interaction, anything where you anticipate that it might be difficult for you tapping.

[00:54:20] AnDra Davidson: Whatever it is that sets you you up for that. I love it. 

[00:54:24] Kathy Washburn: Yes. 

[00:54:24] Final Thoughts and Encouragement

[00:54:24] Kathy Washburn: And all of this is just a reminder that we can be in the midst of these really challenging, awful situations and we can be on our own side. Ugh. Yes. Thank you so much for the work that you do. I just wish I had you back then. I think I had a piece 

[00:54:46] AnDra Davidson: of you.

[00:54:48] AnDra Davidson: I think you did. I can tell that. I think it was, it was in there and you had that strength and you know, my goal truly is to help people remember that there [00:55:00] is perspective and a way to look at something differently and find your strength. And it will be it. It will be okay. It will pass. I know it doesn't feel like that today.

[00:55:12] AnDra Davidson: I know it doesn't, but that's okay too. It's okay to sit in that today and have that confidence that you still deserve a life that you're gonna love and it, it may not happen tomorrow, and it may not happen the day after, but keep at it. Keep taking the small wins and finding that grace for yourself and that strength comes.

[00:55:33] AnDra Davidson: Through that. Ugh. 

[00:55:36] Kathy Washburn: Goodness. Okay. 

[00:55:37] Conclusion and Parting Words

[00:55:37] Kathy Washburn: Then that brings us to our last question. If I were to crush you up and put your essence in pill form, what effect would you have on someone taking that pill? 

[00:55:49] AnDra Davidson: What an awesome question that is. Oh my gosh. That is just the best. It's so funny that you ask it because just yesterday meeting with a client, she said to me randomly.[00:56:00]

[00:56:00] AnDra Davidson: Do you know what your superpower is? And I said, no, tell me. She said, it's perspective. You are able to help me reframe so that I can make a different choice so that I can, doesn't devalue the place where I am right now, but it shows me that there's possibility and I think. That's what I would say. It's that I really honor where people are and help them see perspective so that they can find strength and hope and confidence too.

[00:56:40] Kathy Washburn: Hmm. Thank you. I see that ex, I see that as well, that. That idea of perspective at a time that you feel like you're just in a dark room. It's like you give them a kaleidoscope almost like, no, I love that. That's a beautiful 

[00:56:58] AnDra Davidson: metaphor. Yeah. [00:57:00]

[00:57:00] Kathy Washburn: Oh, thank you so much for sharing your genius with us and for your gift of time.

[00:57:05] Kathy Washburn: I know a lot of people, even if you're not going through divorce, you will find some gems in here. So thank you. Well, thank 

[00:57:13] AnDra Davidson: you for the work that you're doing and bringing this kind of awareness out there, and it's such a pleasure to talk to you. 

[00:57:20] Kathy Washburn: You 

[00:57:21] AnDra Davidson: too. 

[00:57:22] Kathy Washburn: Be well. 

[00:57:23] ​