Ep. 63 - When Giving Becomes a Wall: Learning to Receive by Taking Time and Retreating With Jennifer Miller

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If you forgot what it feels like to be cared for, this conversation will put that feeling back in your body. Kathy sits down with Jennifer Miller, founder of Taking Time Retreats, to explore how high-achieving women can practice receiving through community, play, and somatic healing. Jennifer explains why intentional care lowers the shoulders, slows the breath, and reboots the nervous system. Together they unpack the difference between escaping life and refueling so you can return more present, joyful, and powerful. Expect real talk on reciprocity, sisterhood, and building experiences that turn joy into embodied memory you can carry home.

 In this episode, Kathy and Jennifer discuss:

•  Receiving as regulation and why intentional care changes physiology
•  Somatic healing through play, sound baths, dance, and creative flow
•  Reciprocity versus the brick wall of overgiving and practicing the yes
•  Retreating to return stronger and designing experiences that fit every nervous system
•  Sisterhood, community signals, and small rituals that help you hold hard days 

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Transcript

 Ep. 63 - When Giving Becomes a Wall Learning to Receive by Taking Time and Retreating With Jennifer Miller

Ep. 63 - When Giving Becomes a Wall Learning to Receive by Taking Time and Retreating With Jennifer Miller

[00:00:00] Introduction to Jennifer Miller and Taking Time Retreats

[00:00:00] When was the last time someone made you coffee? Without you even asking them or set up your beach umbrella while you just showed up. If you're like, most of the women I work with, you probably can't remember because you are the one always doing for everyone else. My guest today, Jennifer Miller, founder of Taking time retreats.

[00:00:25] Notice something profound when women are suddenly the ones being cared for. Their shoulders drop from their ears, their breathing slows, and something inside them begins to shift, not just mentally, but physically. Jennifer creates these magical spaces where high achieving women who have spent their lives giving can finally practice receiving through camp style, play somatic healing, and intentional community.

[00:00:59] She's helping [00:01:00] women understand that joy isn't frivolous, it's medicine. In our conversation, Jennifer shares how trauma lives in our bodies as something we relive and how she's flipping that script by creating visceral experiences of joy and connection that we can carry with us. She talks about the difference between running away from your life and running towards something that fills you up so you can show up more fully.

[00:01:30] If you've ever felt guilty for wanting to take time for yourself, or if you've wondered why it's so hard to just receive this conversation is for you because as Jennifer reminds us, your existence is enough. The doing is just an added bonus. I'm Kathy Washburn and this is the Self Investment Project.

[00:01:52] Enjoy.​

[00:03:37] Okay. Welcome Jennifer Miller. I'm so hello, Kathy. Me too. So good. I'm really excited. I met you on one of your retreats. It was kind of a last minute invitation from my roommate from college who I adore and, I used to go to her camp in Maine. [00:04:00] That was the first kind of camp experience that I had in college.

[00:04:04] And so when her, when she invited me to your camp, I was like, who doesn't wanna go to the Cape and act like a kid again? You, Jennifer Miller, you are the founder of what's called Taking Time Retreats, where you create a really unique and special, space dedicated to women. And you blend. You have this magical blend of camp style, like our youth camp style activities with some really focused wellness activities.

[00:04:39] That's as much as I'm gonna share about with about you. I want you to share with us about yourself answering the prompt once upon a time. 

[00:04:50] Jennifer's Journey and Philosophy

[00:04:52] Ooh. Okay. So, once upon a time there was a little girl with two sisters and she was a blazing [00:05:00] extrovert. She had no idea that women were not supposed to be sisters and friends forever and ever.

[00:05:05] So every time she would go somewhere, she would you know, I literally would go up to little girls when I was little and say, hi, I'm Jen. Will you be my friend? And it really didn't stop so, as I got older and, and I was, when I got older, I was into the art. So in that aspect, it can be super competitive, but I could never get there, which is why I could never have truly ever become an actress because there's not a competitive bone in my body.

[00:05:31] Mm-hmm. So I just, my whole life I realized how much women were, were impacted, my life. Every single step of, of my growth. I I was, it was always influenced by my mother or my sisters or these beautiful strangers that I would meet in my life. And I'm, and I'm such a relationship person. I'm, I'm someone that once I, I care for you, I don't ever know how to get that out [00:06:00] of my heart.

[00:06:00] That's, they're locked in. And for a long, long time I would think. Like when I was, I was traveling a lot in my youth and I actually went to, I started going to retreats when I was when I, my son was just a baby. And there was a, there was an an ounce of guilt that I would meet these women and like just fall in love with them and want them to be my sister forever.

[00:06:22] And we would connect and then I might never see them again. So what I realized is, there, the essence of connection is never lost. And there it's never, it's never futile. It's, there's always some sort of growth that happens and I think on both ends, right? 

[00:06:40] The Power of Connection and Community

[00:06:40] So, now I'm recognizing when you, when you give your time intentionally, when you are able to connect with, with, especially with women when you put down your armor, when you are, when you just are, are presence.

[00:06:55] Then things inside of you shift, you know, there's, [00:07:00] like I said before, there was so much later in my life inundated with the idea of, oh, you know, they're gonna, you know, you have to watch out. They're gonna take your man, or they're gonna take your job, or they're gonna take your everything. And I never felt that.

[00:07:14] I never once ever felt that. And, and, and it was always a growth experience. So for me, this, this was a natural trajectory. Back when I met my daughter, so my daughter was adopted from Mexico and we were I was actually in afterschool education at that point. That was my profession. So when I met my daughter in Mexico, I finally we, you know, we went there to paint a building or something.

[00:07:41] So. Al and silly, but that they could do better, you know? But what I realized, it was just sitting with another human being face to face and make, making a con, making a connection with these children, that was, was the magic. It was not in the doing, it was just in the being with them. [00:08:00] So, we came back and I realized that I needed to get, be in into mental health.

[00:08:04] So I got my master's as a mental health counselor. For a long time I was sitting with children and it was really hard in the school setting. It was very rigid. And so the growth cycle took me to my teachers who were in that space really struggling. We had a number of traumas from our school. We had to move schools.

[00:08:26] We had, of course, COVID. Our school literally broke. And so, they came to me and they said, would you make a retreat for, for us at school? And so that was really coupled with the experience of just being on them and realizing that these quick, beautiful, orchestrated environments that are meant to build connection.

[00:08:48] Are so powerful. 

[00:08:49] Creating Spaces for Women to Receive

[00:08:49] So I did it for them and I realized like my, I, I love working with children and I'll work with children for a while longer, but I really love the idea of creating spaces for women because that's, I almost think of that as the baseline, right? That is the baseline for health and healing is that we care for these, these creators of, of people, we create humans.

[00:09:15] And. We, if you can care for someone who is really the, the baseline, then everything else can fall into place and, and rewiring the idea that women are not in competition. That we are, we are creators, we're, we're healers, we're we come together to build and not to tear down that society. Whew. So much to unpack in that.

[00:09:43] Sorry. No, it's so beautiful. And you know, I, I've always had that same feeling of why are women knocking each other down? My goodness. I grew up in the financial world and I remember [00:10:00] this one kind of jarring moment where I was being trained by. A peer of mine who was very jealous that I was moving up very quickly.

[00:10:15] So she wasn't exactly for, you know, she wasn't really giving her information. And at one point she said to me, no one's spoonfed this shit to me, so figure it out. And I was like, okay. So one day I was trading money market securities and. She failed to tell me that the sheet that I was working from was 24 hours old, so anything, any trades that happened after four o'clock the previous day and up until this moment, was not reflected on this piece of paper.

[00:10:51] So I sold a million bonds that we did not own 1 million. I, I remember their exec, they [00:11:00] were New York State transportation bonds like, and I was panick, like I thought I was gonna die. I walked into my boss's office and he looked at me and he said, everybody short sells once. Yeah. And I, I came back out and he said to me, did she not?

[00:11:21] I won't say her name. Yeah. Did she not tell you that this is, you know, that we have this lag? And I said, I, I didn't actually, I didn't say anything. I was so in a, in a wreck and I came back out and I said to her, why didn't you tell me? And she said, how you learn? And I was like, you know, in this world of men, we need to band together.

[00:11:46] And I was only 19, 20 years old, and I remember this so vividly, thinking wait, aren't you supposed to be on my side? Yes. Like you, I always, when I meet women, they leave an indelible mark on [00:12:00] me. I have, I feel like if you had one of those. Violet glow lights, you would see the names of thousands of women all over me.

[00:12:08] Some of them I wouldn't even have. I would look at their name and say, I don't know who that is, but somehow they touched me. And that's exactly what I heard and how you described yourself. And I remember meeting you the very first moment we walked into this room and you're just. Bright as a light welcoming us in.

[00:12:30] And I thought this woman touches so many people. Like you can just see the reverberations of your work in this short time together. And one of the things that I remember so vividly from that trip is that everything was done for us and done so meticulously and with such. Intention and attention. You know, we walked, Lisa and I went down to the beach [00:13:00] and the umbrellas were there.

[00:13:02] The, the cooler was there, the blankets were there, and I thought, when was the last time I didn't trudge, you know, drag stuff to the beach with me? And I remember one afternoon we were all there and we all started picking up. And you're like, no. Go, go, go, go, go. Yeah, go. We don't want your help. That's not why you're here.

[00:13:24] And there are like nine stunned women. Yeah. Unable to move because we were all like, no, hold on. We, we need to help. Yeah. It's it's for women who are used to being the ones that do, do, do everything. 

[00:13:40] The Importance of Intentional Care

[00:13:40] And that's what I love what you said about that, that understanding of that moment with your daughter, oh, has nothing to do with the doing.

[00:13:50] Yeah. It has everything to do with the being. Mm-hmm. So what do you think happens in people's bodies and minds when they're [00:14:00] suddenly the ones being cared for or attended to? Yeah. Well, it's funny that you say that because, so one of the, back to the, what you were saying about the beach when I was bouncing off, you know, things that were really important to me and one of them was, was so important that you had, that everyone had just this experience where they could just show up.

[00:14:21] Especially at the beach. And so when I mentioned it to my husband, he said, why is that a big deal? And I said, it's a big deal because you have no idea why it's a big deal. And so it was so that idea you know, and then I was really watching my, my dear, dear friend, was. Camp with us and she is type A to the extent she plans.

[00:14:44] She's organized, everything is always done. She's has the answer before someone asks it. She's in a very stressful job. She creates very high end en entertainment for very wealthy people. And so she's under pressure all the time [00:15:00] and she actually came to camp right at the end of, of a big, big job.

[00:15:05] Million dollars you know, crazy. So, that, that my friend was my test. That was my white whale. If I could get her, if I could see the change in her body, I knew that I could be successful doing work. So, you know, she is, she definitely wears it in her shoulders. She is someone that is so tight.

[00:15:30] So I think that. What I saw was there was this very gradual, like physical of letting go. I mean, I saw the shoulders go from ears to back where they belong. Blinking, slowed down breathing the way she moved from one spot to the other. And I've known this woman since she was 13 years old. So we know each other.

[00:15:58] Physically, [00:16:00] the, the and, and it. It's not just the environment. I think that creating a space with intention is, is, is crucial. So for me, every detail was really important in, in the act of women leaning in and letting go. But for but I think for the individual, it's the intention setting. So she went there with, okay.

[00:16:25] I am not gonna do the thing, you know? And, and then, you know, going against our, our dynamic where, you know, she likes to do the planning and she, she's gonna put it down. So with that own setting of intention and leaning into a care that. Really carefully curated for each person. I physically, I could see just her, the breathing pattern.

[00:16:51] When, when I would see her. She was, she would do a lot of the meditation. I could see her breathing slow and she wasn't fidgeting. And it [00:17:00] was and you know, I, in, in school, my professor said this line, and it's not his, and I know it's someone else's, but. He said, our reality becomes our flesh. So our experiences become our flesh.

[00:17:13] And so, so true. You know, when for me creating an experience of role reversal, right? So an environment where you are not stepping in on this, you know, frivolous vacations have their merit. I think they're really important. But I think you leave with memory, right? You leave with something wistful that you can.

[00:17:35] Recall when you're talking about it over drinks, but I wanted to create a space where it lived in the viscera. I wanted to create a space where women connected on a spiritual and a physical plane so that when you left this place. With just a, a bite of, of what it could mean to, to being communion and to let go and to have fun and be silly [00:18:00] and dumb.

[00:18:01] What it would do, and I think I, I mean, I saw all the women, I saw the, the, the tension as we. Did the opening circle and then the beautiful release towards the end, and then the, the, I call them beautiful magnets, like these, these, these people that maybe in the beginning wouldn't have thought that they would gravitate towards each other and they're having these full conversations and just watching it so.

[00:18:26] I feel like it's a, it's, it's such a reciprocal feeling. Like I'm watching these women grow in community and their body's letting go of the stress, and then I get to see it. I'm like, oh. It felt, it's, it was, it's exciting and, and it feels so soul filling to see, you know, maybe I was a little part of giving someone something so that later down the line when they're really struggling, they can remember what it felt like to sit in their body still.

[00:18:54] They can remember what to have their feet in the sand without working at it, you [00:19:00] know? Well, if you, again, if you shined that fluorescent light on me, you would see Jennifer Miller somewhere on my body and I, I witnessed and. Experience that the night that you did that sound bath on the beach, uh mm-hmm.

[00:19:16] Under the, under the moonlight. And people were like gathering together to take pictures with one another and making plans for the future with these people that we just met two days ago. 

[00:19:29] Reciprocity and Sisterhood

[00:19:29] And I think you said something so profound, reciprocal. This is something I work with so many of my clients on because I think you gather a very similar group of women that I do.

[00:19:45] They're givers, they're doers, they're, they're your middle of the night girl. You know, you can call any one of those women and they will be there next to you by your side. My roommate from college is one of them. Oh, she has [00:20:00] picked me up countless times, brushed me off and pushed me forward. And the idea of that being reciprocal.

[00:20:09] Mm-hmm. And realizing, oh, when I let myself feel that and receive, then the energy becomes this. Reciprocal energy versus a i, I call it a stiff wall. If you're just giving, giving, giving, you're basically banging your head against a brick wall because you're let, you're not letting anything in. It's not necessarily, and so many of my clients will say, well.

[00:20:46] They'll kind of start with this spin of he did or she said, or they don't, or he never. Or she never. And this idea of, okay, let's, let's stop the spin. [00:21:00] Come back to self and identify where you opened yourself up to receive what was coming to you. It's such a mind blowing moment for women who do. So much for everybody.

[00:21:18] Do you see those retreats kind of opening that door of reciprocity because you were instilling it At every little moment you're like, Nope, I'll, I'll make your coffee. Your coffee will be ready in a moment. Look away people. And so it was this very subtle and playful. Receive. Kathy, receive. Kathy.

[00:21:39] Receive Kathy, you wanna sit down and do sand art? One moment, please. I'll bring the, the sand art to you. Yeah. It really, is that planned or is that just, is that I, it felt, it didn't feel intentional, but it felt part of your ethos. Yes. I think both. I [00:22:00] think it's it is planned in the sense that, I for ever was one of those women who would always do, I love that your, your type C personality.

[00:22:09] I would do without I, I always no, you know, I, I'm fine. My, one of my best friends laughs because the first time we met I was far broke and she was broke too, but she happened to have five extra dollars and she offered me a cup of coffee and I'm addicted to coffee. And I said, oh no, it's okay. I hate coffee.

[00:22:28] Because the idea of taking was just impossible to me. And so it took a lot of intention to just start saying, yes, thanks. I, you had said that actually in one of your podcasts that I was like, oh, woo. That got right in there. So it was very intentional that I wanted to create an environment where re it was almost a, I wanted to keep reminding the idea that this is, it's.

[00:22:54] Important. It's not just, okay, it's important that there are moments in [00:23:00] your life where you just get. Treated the way you deserve to be treated. We all deserve to be treated right? Mm-hmm. And I feel like with someone who's, you know as much as, of course you know, this, this, this is people, they're, they're paying for this experience, but it's still more of a connection.

[00:23:17] I wasn't doing, you know, this is not a connection like your waitress is bringing you food. I wanted it to feel like another mother, another human, another creator on the on the planet earth. Is here with you in community and doing now her part, and you have to do your part. And your part is to just take that, because the, like you said, that that wall of giving is, it's really not serving anyone.

[00:23:44] Mm-hmm. And so I think reminding women that, that sitting and receiving and just saying, well, thank you for that sand art. I think that that creates a, like a, a. An [00:24:00] acceptability of, of switching roles, which, a fluidity of going into, taking into receiving and knowing the time and the place to do those things, you know?

[00:24:13] Mm-hmm. So I, I, I really, it what that was one of the most, when we would sit for our meetings on what I wanted to camp, I wanted camp to feel like. That was, that always came back from me. Like everyone had their roles and I wanted to make people feel how they, how they are givers. I wanted, and I think all women are, I think, and I think all people are right, but I think women have to be reminded to receive.

[00:24:40] So it was very, it was something intentional that I wanted women to feel. And I, I think this hearkens back to your sisterhood, this idea of women taking care of one another. And that is such a beautiful space to allow it to be acceptable, [00:25:00] to be taken care of. Because I think that's how it worked in the, you know, when men went to hunt.

[00:25:08] And we were working together to gather there was a given receiving happening. I don't, I mean, I don't know, but I'm assuming. Yeah. Well, the red tent, right? That great book. The Red tent. They're red. A red tent. That's one of my favorite books. Me too. I, I, I want a red tent. Yes. Oh, that's what you need to bring into your.

[00:25:30] Yeah, into your retreats. Red tents. Oh, you just gave me a beautiful idea. 

[00:25:38] Incorporating Play and Somatic Healing

[00:25:46] Oh, when I was looking, when I was kind of gathering some, some scaffolding questions to work on, I remembered this. This article I read and I'm terrible about referencing. I usually I'll see something and I'll note it on my my cell phone in the notes section, and I'm not always good about.

[00:25:57] Writing them down. But I wanna read you this [00:26:00] paragraph. I found it just, it just screamed Jennifer Miller to me. This woman writes, I enlisted the help of a girlfriend for my fun quest, and we replaced our usual suburban dinner and wine evenings out for playful activities. We did trampoline dodge ball.

[00:26:21] Drop in volleyball at the Y competitive ping pong country line dancing and fierce games of air hockey at the arcade. Our friendship bloomed with this new approach because we were sharing hilarious new experiences and laughing so hard, and instead of just sitting around drinking Chardonnay, coveting about mundane life and judging other women.

[00:26:47] Mm-hmm. I love that. I need to read that entire article. I only cut out a piece of it unfortunately, but, oh, actually, she read some movement and I were back together again [00:27:00] as we were in my youth full of variety and reckless abandon, anchored in fun and joy free from pressuring goals I had rediscovered something that left me feeling totally in tune with and connected to my body from head to toe.

[00:27:15] That was the other piece, because you are trained in somatic healing. And Somatic Healing is making a big debut, I think in the, in the not self-help, but in the healing circles. And when women arrive at your retreats, I. I, I heard you describe it in that one woman, and I know who you're talking about because I witnessed her dancing the night of the, when we were all goddesses, and when she came out of the building onto the lawn, the yard that we, she looked so relaxed.

[00:27:53] And it, her hair was down and flowing when she got there. Her hair was like in a bun, high and [00:28:00] tight, you know, like everything was a little rigid about her. And in that moment I saw that physical that physical like feeling of connection. Yeah. Yeah. Well that's, yeah. 

[00:28:15] Introduction to Soul Sisters and Gerian Therapy

[00:28:15] So, you know, you had brought up my, my Soul sisters, which, and it's a nice segue into her.

[00:28:21] So in school, I remember we started with Gerian therapy, which is Gerian is very, you know, it's, it's just hearing and it's just accepting, the idea is unconditional positive regard, right? And then you have the idea of somatics, which this is really. You know, taking this idea of Nigerian where you just see people for who they are and you accept them and then they're all body up.

[00:28:46] I realized that that's all this very scientific way of saying my best girlfriend. Right? You know, we started gosh, we were in our teens. We started meeting, we would meet every [00:29:00] Tuesday for coffee. And I remember actually we had this really inappropriate name that we called ourselves because of, it's kind of a funny story.

[00:29:08] They, my friend's boyfriend, she was like, oh my gosh, I have to go, it's, it's coffee night. And he said, are you going to leave me for those rhymes with boar, those coffee boars? So that's actually what we call ourselves now. 

[00:29:23] The Power of Friendship and Somatic Therapy

[00:29:23] And so, so we, one of the things that she said, so we would meet religiously every single Tuesday.

[00:29:30] And we would kind of hold these things in our body, in our minds. And then one time she came and she sat and, you know, really just, just dumped all these things that were on our, on her heart. And she said, wow, when you say it out loud, it, it sounds pretty terrible. But now I feel like I can do something with it.

[00:29:53] And so, you know, it's like in, in just the, the being together created some sort of action [00:30:00] steps for her. And when I tell you, I remember the last time, one of the last times we were together, a song came on and we just, me and the, my other friend, like we're all in our jammies. We're sitting around and we start doing this interpretive dance to this ridiculous song, and it got very deep.

[00:30:19] Oh my goodness, Kathy. And we had wigs. I mean, so it was important, right? This was important. And it's just like the, just the laughing in that room. It took every single, I mean, all of us collectively, we are dealing with infertility, we're dealing with questions in our marriage. We're, we're dealing with fears for our children.

[00:30:40] And in that moment in our body. We're laughing till we pee, you know? And that's for jar, that's somatic therapy. That is healing. 

[00:30:51] Creating Space for Healing and Joy

[00:31:03] And that's what happens when you just create space, enter with women and let she go. Mm. That's such a beautiful vision. I often. Kind of tout the idea that we're not meant to heal in isolation.

[00:31:10] No. And, and finding those people, finding that support is so integral and, and people's healing. And that's such a beautiful story. And I love your program. 

[00:31:27] The Importance of Play in Healing

[00:31:42] Because of the way it invites play. There's something so tantalizing about going to summer camp as a redo at age 59. Yes. And kind of redoing that again, but some people might say oh, you're going to a retreat.

[00:31:44] You're just escaping reality. Totally. 

[00:31:47] Retreats vs. Running Away

[00:31:59] How do you help women understand the difference between kind of running away from their lives and intentionally recharging so that they can show up more fully? Yeah. I think that [00:32:00] when we are running away, there's always something that we just left back behind, right?

[00:32:06] And I think that that's, that's what that, that running is. So for me that when, when you go into retreat or, or camp or, or an intentional experience like that, you're, you're understanding that you're putting something down, but you're gonna bring something new back to it. So that's the difference. So it's in the, you know, whether it's that feeling of joy at or or, or something practical.

[00:32:33] The Concept of Camp and Intentional Experiences

[00:32:33] So I think one of the things for me with why camp was always different than retreat and I, you know, so many people were like, why don't you just call it a retreat? I said, because. There is this idea that retreats are, you, you go off, you do the yoga, you do the breathing, which I, I could do that every minute of the day, but there are women that, that is not.

[00:32:53] So that's why we brought in Ben. Ben plays, he does these joyful, silly games. And [00:33:00] so, I needed to create a space for women. That would meet each of them, where they were and what they needed. And that's so different for everyone. So I had to create as many offerings that would include that going in, which then they could take, take some space from, from whatever they were, you know, they perceived they were running from.

[00:33:23] They could go into that space and I needed something physical to then get it out so that they could think clearer, you know? Mm-hmm. And I think that it was that clarity, connection, relationship and community. That's where healing is. So if you have a, a space that is set with intention and that intention is joy, relationship community.

[00:33:46] Connection then It is, it's a, it's a tool. So it, there's nothing selfish about taking this time. It's almost, you know, we, we, I think in the western world, we see you can go to a therapist, you [00:34:00] can go to a doctor, but don't you dare laugh and call it medicine. You know, that was not something that was gonna work.

[00:34:07] That was just, And so that was something that, that I thought was really important for me to bring. And to make sure that that women were, had something to, run a home with rather than from, oh gosh. That is such a beautiful way to put it. And it's almost like this subliminal thing that happened because of your intention.

[00:34:30] And I remember saying to Lisa one night when we were like, you know, staying up, late chatting and, the id you had so many offerings. I just felt like it just gives people so much agency over how do I wish to spend this sacred time? Like I could go be creative, I could go run around. Ben, by the way, highlight, we had so much fun.

[00:34:57] And or I could go meditate [00:35:00] or. I could just go walk down the beach by myself. There was no there was no rules to the road, but mm-hmm. There was structure. It, it reminds me of you know, raising children to, to create the boundaries so they know they're there, but they're not so rigid that they're fighting them.

[00:35:25] Oh, it was, it was that same thing that you created and the running away from. I never really thought about it that way, but I talk about it. I, I talk about this and maybe this is similar. When people say, I know I need to let it go. I know I need to let it go. And I'll say, it's not fair to say you should let it go.

[00:35:47] 'cause if you let it go, you know exactly where you put it. Okay, great. And you can pick it up anytime. So instead of letting go, how can we disintegrate it? [00:36:00] Yes. Then disintegrate it and let it, the alchemy come back as something different. And you are doing that without even saying that. Yeah. Which is such a beautiful gift through the art of play.

[00:36:18] Embodied Healing and Trauma

[00:36:18] Well, my, so my thesis was in trauma, right? So I mean, that is not playful. However one of the things that really. It talked about that embodying of, of holding onto, so the, the really, the only difference, well the main difference between a traumatic memory and an actual memory is t you don't remember trauma, you relive it.

[00:36:42] So what I wanted to do is kind of turn that on its head and have, have. Visceral connections that you can bring with you that now in a positive way, you're not, it's not just this memory of this, I was walking on the beach. It's this visceral [00:37:00] experience that now you get to relive with someone in front of you because you just embodied healing.

[00:37:05] You just embodied joy and wellness and silliness and, and mindfulness and whatever you chose to do in that moment. So I wanted the idea that if we can, if our body can hold on so tightly to things that damage us to the point where we can't move forward, how do we make it so that it, it chooses to hold onto the joy in the same viscera, you know?

[00:37:27] Mm-hmm. That's kind of what I was, I was focusing on. Yeah. And you did a beautiful job in that. And when I'm working with clients, I invite them to sense drench. Yeah. To have that memory and really let it fill their entire. System and you were inviting us to actually experience it and then when we gathered together to talk about it.

[00:37:52] So it was very, you were actually doing that sense drenching for us. And you remind me of this work I've studied [00:38:00] with David. I think it's his last name is Tree Levin or Treen. He does a lot of work with trauma sensitive. Coaching and he talks, I don't know if this is his work, you might be familiar with this, where he invites us to hold your palm of your hand.

[00:38:17] Just hold your, hold your palm up and make a fist with the other hand. And if this is the struggle that you have right now, that thing you're running from or this this uneasiness inside and just. Put it in your palm and see if you can just allow yourself to hold it. And that simple act of holding my own ex negative experience and realizing oh wait, I have the power and the spaciousness to hold that you create spaces that [00:39:00] allow that to happen.

[00:39:02] Oh, and I can only imagine how powerful that must have been for teachers, especially after CID, to find that supportive holding so that they can go back into the world and teach our children mm-hmm. From a fully embodied place. Do you That's right. Do you hear that over and over again? Yes, I remember the first one that we did.

[00:39:33] It was just, and you know, I'm back to the idea that I'm introducing my world to, to maybe people who haven't entered it and we're, I was like we're gonna do a little chanting. Is that okay? Were like, what? Talking about, you know, so, and so after coming back, we actually had this thing where we would we were, we were talking about, one of the things is that.

[00:39:57] How could we bring this back and, and keep it connected? [00:40:00] So one of the teachers said that, put your, your index finger to your, your forehead and then point to the other. And so when we're in our moment in school, that's how we're going to physically bring it back. We're just gonna point our finger to our own forehead.

[00:40:14] So there's we, this is our third eye. We're connected on a level that isn't here. We're putting down this stuff. And so each year we had this year this one, teacher's coming back who is a painful introvert herself, proclaimed. And so, last year she signed up for the entire weekend, but she only was able, she only could allow herself to come.

[00:40:37] Like mid, mid Saturday. So this year she came to me and put her hands on my shoulders and said, I'm doing the whole thing. It was so good. And so just seeing that they like, again, back in, it's not a memory that they're bringing to this space. They're bringing this physical experience that is making them lighter and better at everything they want to be lighter and better at.

[00:40:59] So it was [00:41:00] really exciting to, to kind of be part of. Yeah. 

[00:41:03] The Self Investment Project

[00:41:03] That, and it's fascinating, right? I, I call this podcast The Self Investment Project because it really does require an investment from ourselves to ourselves, and there's so much reluctance of carving away. I don't have time, my family needs me.

[00:41:25] This seems really self indu, indulgent. So what did you say to her? It sounds like she knew your work. And she, she still originally I can only come half the time, but there's this jump to I'm gonna do it for myself. Mm-hmm. How, how do you see that transition takes place and is there something that you do well, I already know kind of the answer.

[00:41:50] Your playfulness. Is a big invitation, but how do you help women shift from selfish to [00:42:00] self full? I know that is, it's, it's such a, a struggle because I, I, in my experience, so like I said, this all started when I went to my first retreat back when my son was, you know, just a, a toddler. He is 12 now. And I remember being surrounded by these women and getting this, this connection that I.

[00:42:21] Was, I was a better mother when I got home. Mm. And so after that moment, like I felt an go, just leaving this baby with my husband, I felt the, I felt like the, the most selfish. I'm like, how dare I'm spending, I'm using our resources financially, you know, and I'm taking time and my baby needs me. My husband needs me, everyone needs me, needs a baby.

[00:42:43] But when I got back, I was such a full cop. I had so much more ability to be better at all the things I wanted for them, you know, not just for me. I felt [00:43:00] I was more patient with Henry. I felt I was, you know, I could really stop and, and hear my husband rather than just going through the Did you get the, this and the bag and the, it was.

[00:43:11] I, I've understood the intentionality of connection and I was able to bring it and after that point I would go over here and I would say, this is great 'cause I only have 364 days left and then I can do it again. You know, so it's, so, it's something that so I'm actually creating something smaller.

[00:43:33] Because I want to start inviting women in a, in a more accessible way. So I'm, I'm, I'm in the process of creating something called Coffee and Casual Chaos, which is, it's an invitation for a six week program where you get together with other women. You talk about like the, some of the topics will be harvesting joy, like finding joy letting go of shoulds.

[00:43:59] [00:44:00] Reevaluating what is important. And so taking just that small time to, to kind of carve during, you know, a little over a month and then at the end with an invitation that if they want to do an overnight retreat, they, they could, or they, or they don't. They just create this community where they meet these new sisters and they can go off and that can be part of their tribe.

[00:44:21] And so my idea is that. It is scary. You know, I think of the re the, the camp that this summer and it was so many healers, right? So many like mental health workers and teachers, and. So many people in that field. I think there was like two that were in finance, and so everyone else were like people that, that that's what they do.

[00:44:43] So how do you convince people who have been ingrained to give and they have not even been taught how to take that now you have to use your, your rich, your, your treasures and your time just for you, for no one [00:45:00] else. It's it. That is the biggest struggle. Because every single woman I talk to about this says, oh, oh my gosh, that sounds amazing.

[00:45:07] I need that. And none of them pull the trigger. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, you need it. You should pull the trigger, you know? So, so that's why I'm a smaller invitation might be the way to get the, to, the understanding to create a movement of, of sisterhood as strength. Yes. I love this idea. And you have to let me know and we'll definitely include in the show notes, whatever you have created for that.

[00:45:33] ' when you were talking that idea, I, I can envision you as a new mom, I was in your same shoes where you just like spinning like a top, you know, just outward.

[00:45:46] All your energy is kind of outward, outward spinning. And then you have this moment, and I'm not. Hugely religious. I grew up in a very religiously confusing childhood where we were both Catholic [00:46:00] and Protestant, depending on who, what grandparents were loudest. I went to a Bible study once and the. Minister described the cross in a way that I had never heard before. He said this, the vertical? Yes. The vertical part of the cross is this idea of knowing who you are. And you are the likeness of God. Mm-hmm. And this, this is to me, that's that proverb.

[00:46:30] Be still and know that I am. Mm-hmm. Only when you can be that. Still and tap into who you are, can you open up into that horizontal and help others? Yes, and it has stuck with me. So if I am a top and I'm just spinning madly, I don't really know who I am, it's just like I'm just. You know, Willy nil. It's like a, a more like a weevil.[00:47:00]

[00:47:00] Oh, do you remember Weebles? I fall down, but I pop back up. Yeah. And so what you're inviting women to do. Just be still for a moment. So to find who you are so that you can then go back into your worlds in a much stronger, more powerful, empowered way that you're actually influencing the way that you wanna be influencing, which is generatively, right?

[00:47:32] That's right. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:47:34] The Magic of Connection and Play

[00:47:34] It's kind of magical, the work that you're doing. Oh, thank you. I do, but I feel like, I feel like the magic is there and, and somehow at some point someone hid it behind something, you know? And so I think that we just have to intentionally move that obstacle and we can all see it again.

[00:47:54] We can see that women, when we get together, we, we change the [00:48:00] world. We can change lives, you know? Mm. Yeah. And again, not to keep. Pouncing on this play element, but I do think you're, you're kind of reconnecting us to that disintegration when we were younger, when when you turned from the Jen that was like, Hey, my name's Jen, wanna be my friend.

[00:48:20] To that moment that you realize you're not supposed to do that, Jen. That's that. You know, not appropriate or whatever message that you're Yeah, yeah. Right. So the invitation of oh no, I can do that. I can, I can be me. It's such a beautiful gift. Wow. Yeah. Thanks. I know. That's, that's, so I think that that right there was, is for me the difference.

[00:48:45] I've, I've seen some other events where it's like. Camp looks like women are drinking too much and doing this, but it's like you can, you can boil all that down and find it inside and be, and laugh till the milk comes snorting outta your nose. [00:49:00] Yes. Yes. That's such a gift, even at 59 years old.

[00:49:08] Yeah. To be able to be playful like that. 

[00:49:10] Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[00:49:16] I have one other question, unless there's anything else that you wanna share. Do you feel, compelled to No, I, no, just, I keep if, if I could leave you with an idea of you know, our, our brain is made of these, these neurons, right? With these, these tendrils of connection and I, that's kind of how I see all of this, you know?

[00:49:31] I see. Meeting you, I see. Being in camp and, and having all these experiences with these women that we talked about, like these, you know, these fleeting times there, it's a, it's our, it's our neuron that is just making that synapse, but another beautiful soul, a neuron, and that's what makes us grow. It's not in the existence, it's in the connecting.

[00:49:55] So. That's kind of oof. I love that. Wow. Okay. So if [00:50:00] I were to crush your essence up and put it in pill form, okay. What effect would you have on someone taking that pill? I think if they took me as a pill, I think that they would see feel really seen. I think that they would understand that laughter is the embodiment of everything, spiritual and, and beautiful.

[00:50:24] I think that would understand that just their existence on the planet is enough and doing is just an added bonus. And they would, they would realize that as soon as they took that, that relationships with other people are the only reason we are on this planet. Whew. I just got the chills

[00:50:48] and I took that pill for a whole weekend. I was taking that pill and it has it definitely has stayed with me. Many moments of that weekend have stayed with [00:51:00] me. I am grateful for you sharing your genius with the world. 'cause it really, I think it made a difference for both myself and my roommate from college.

[00:51:09] You know, we went there kind of celebrating 40 years of knowing one another, so special and, and we just fell right back into those younger women that were just full. So full of possibility. You kind of brought that back, so thank you. Oh wonderful. Thank you. I really, I. Having you, there was magic. I really feel that way.

[00:51:31] Well, your gift of time is so appreciated. Thank you so much. 

[00:51:35] ​