Ep. 64 - The Integrity Trap: Can following through for everyone else be breaking you down? with Natasha Skolny

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Have you ever crushed your goals, hit the title, got the team… and still felt hollow? This conversation is a reset for high-achieving helpers who keep promises to everyone but themselves. Leadership coach and former HR exec Natasha Skolny (The Leadership Cabin) digs into what integrity actually means, why indecision drains our power, and how to re-align without burning bridges—or yourself. 

Topics discussed

• The integrity trap: keeping promises to everyone else while breaking your own
• Decide, then do: cutting off options to end overthinking and regain momentum
• Boundaries that hold: regulate your nervous system, then communicate clearly
• Conflict as opportunity: lead with curiosity (“Can you help me understand…?”) to move forward together
• Values → alignment: audit tolerations, forgive past selves, and rebuild self-trust
• From burnout to bandwidth: spot decision fatigue and use AI to clear tasks so humans can connect

View extended shownotes here

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Transcript

 Ep. 64 - The Integrity Trap: Can following through for everyone else be breaking you down? with Natasha Skolny

Ep. 64 - The Integrity Trap: Can following through for everyone else be breaking you down? with Natasha Skolny

[00:00:00] Have you ever checked every box on your to-do list, climbed to exactly where you wanted to be in your career and still felt completely empty inside, like you are living someone else's version of success? You are not alone. My guest today, Natasha Scone, knows that feeling intimately after 20 years in human resources, helping leaders find their authentic voice, she realized she'd lost her own.

[00:00:29] She was following through on every commitment she made to everyone else believing she was living in integrity while. Abandoning every promise she had made to herself. Her company is called The Leadership Cabin. Mm. Doesn't that sound delightful? Well, it is exactly the essence of this conversation where we unpack what is really means to be in integrity.

[00:00:57] And spoiler alert, it's not about being [00:01:00] everyone else's hero. We're talking about the cost of misalignment and the burnout, the exhaustion, and the way we flatline emotionally when we stop feeling both the highs and the lows. Natasha shares the moment her coach called her out. You are in integrity with everyone else, but what about yourself?

[00:01:21] That was the question that changed everything for her. We dive deep into reframing conflict as an opportunity rather than a threat. The power of deciding, which literally means to cut off all other options and why forgiveness of your past selves might be the most radical act of self investment. You can make and it's free.

[00:01:46] If you've been serving everyone else while re relegating yourself to the bottom of the totem pole. This conversation is your permission to press on the pain, release the knot, and put yourself first. [00:02:00] So grab a cup of coffee. You are going to enter the leadership cabin.

[00:02:06]

[00:03:47] Introduction and Greetings

[00:03:47] Hello, Natasha 

[00:03:51] Goni. 

[00:03:52] How are you today? I am great, Kathy. Thanks for having me. How are you? I am well, and I'm super excited for this conversation. [00:04:00] You have, you were, you spent a lot of time on maybe your previous life in the HR world. I was in the investment world, but I have a million friends that are in that HR space, so I'm really excited for you to share your genius with us today.

[00:04:14] Natasha's Journey from HR to Coaching

[00:04:14] I am gonna start, your bio will be linked in the show notes, but I would love for you to introduce yourself by answering the question once upon a time. Once upon a time, I love this question. Once upon a time I worked in for a large 

[00:04:35] organization 

[00:04:36] in human resources and 

[00:04:39] I 

[00:04:40] was probably strapped so thin with putting out fires and started getting into helping leaders.

[00:04:51] Feel empowered and start doing the things that they're most excited about doing. [00:05:00] And I realized that I wasn't doing this stuff myself, and I wanted to go on this journey too. So that led me into coaching, that led me into self-development. And now I am in a place where I am so ready to help other HR professionals learn how to lead themselves so they can have that bigger impact and not feel like they're drowning anymore.

[00:05:27] Thank you for that. 

[00:05:29] Empowerment and Self-Development

[00:05:39] And the two things that stick out right there is putting out fires versus being proactive. And that proactiveness, I love that you realized that you would. Kind of doing it yourself. And this idea that I wish would spread like wildfire is we are never done growing. It's a constant effort.

[00:05:54] I remember one of my teachers explaining it this way we k Canson is his name. [00:06:00] And he says, if you look at a chart, so he is standing up in front of all of us and he's got this, you know, horizontal vertical line. He's like, okay, over time you have these experiences. Some of 'em are really great, some of 'em not so great, and.

[00:06:17] As we get older, we you know, there's a lot of us that try not to feel because we're doing so much that we're not feeling the big things and we're not feeling the little things. So the line gets a little smaller and he's kind of going through and he is talking about like different things that happen in somebody's life.

[00:06:37] And then he steps back and he says, are there any heart surgeons in the room? What does this look like? And when you step back, it's a heartbeat until it's flatlining. Wow. And 

[00:06:50] that's the thing. It's like we're not supposed to just live up here. It is the both and I don't know. 

[00:06:58] I [00:07:00]

[00:07:00] I love that. I love that so much.

[00:07:01] And there's a lot that's evolved in just my own self-exploration on. 

[00:07:07] uh. people used to call me and say, Natasha, you're so stoic. Like, you just have this way of being able to hold that not excitement, not super sadness, just like you're right in the middle there. And I used to be praised about at thinking like, yes, I've it.

[00:07:27] This is great. And it wasn't until the last couple years where I started asking myself the deeper questions on what really is important to me. I had this disconnect that was happening where I was literally how you said it, flatlining. I was just going through the motions and not experiencing life to its fullest with its ups and downs.

[00:07:49] And I wasn't allowing myself to, to do that. So I love that description. I love how you said that. 

[00:07:54] The Importance of Authenticity in Leadership

[00:07:54] So after 20 years in that HR space, and once you saw it in [00:08:00] yourself, what patterns like that did you observe? And others that made you realize that these leaders needed something different and even more d different than like you being in hr, in the corporate space.

[00:08:16] And how that structure was just not right for what you were trying to do. Yeah, great question. The, The work that really pulled it out of me 

[00:08:25] was 

[00:08:26] when I would be coaching leaders. 

[00:08:29] GMT20251201-150215_Recording_gvo_1280x720: And we'd 

[00:08:29] get to a point where they were starting to break down because they were feeling like they were trying so hard to be a version of themself that was inauthentic.

[00:08:39] And it was the repeated conversations that I was having, specifically with female leaders. Who were feeling like I just, there's something that I don't feel like I can be myself. There's something that I have to transform or try to respond in a certain way that doesn't feel [00:09:00] authentic to me, and it was crumbling them inside.

[00:09:04] Hmm. 

[00:09:04] And that is what spearheaded me into thinking, wait. If they're not feeling authentic, how are they really doing work that lights them up, that gets them excited, that feels good, that has the impact that they want, and what might happen if they could fully be themselves? What would that translate into? And then that shifted how I decided to do work one-on-one.

[00:09:32] Yeah, one-on-one. And for myself too. So it evolved into. 

[00:09:37] The Struggle with Identity and Alignment

[00:09:44] I really see the opportunity in working with women because there is, and I think about my own experiences too, but I know it's not unique. I, you know, was a very high achiever, always looking to excel, always looking to prove myself, always looking to move up the corporate ladder.

[00:09:57] And then I got [00:10:00] married and then I had kids, and then I was starting to have this. Uncertainty around my own identity because I felt like I was serving everyone else and not serving myself. I started leading a team. I started getting to exactly where I wanted to be in my career, and I felt completely, when I look back now, I can say I felt completely misaligned, even though I was checking all the boxes of the things that made sense for me.

[00:10:30] And I was like, I don't understand. And everyone kept saying, you know, this is just a season. Your kids are young right now. Be grateful for what you have. And so there was this tension between, I don't feel aligned, but I feel like I should be appreciative of what I have. So is it okay to even feel the way that I do right now?

[00:10:51] Wow. You just touched on something. That is so, prevalent and the people I work with also, but was [00:11:00] really starkly prevalent after cancer where there was a need, and this happens with. Any change? Any change, it's even moving to a new home. Like there is a level that is required that most of us ignore our culture, ex ignores.

[00:11:19] But the cancer thing made it really clear, which was like, wow, okay. Everything has changed for me inside, inside my body, inside my mind. There's this kind of urgency to live. In a different way. There's needs to be this ssociation with my body and who am I? 

[00:11:43] To ask for anybody to do anything different when I should just be grateful I'm alive.

[00:11:51] So this conundrum turns into this inner strife. And when we spoke before you talked [00:12:00] about this idea of integrity, which I love that word. I don't think I always loved it because. I was out of integrity because I was doing all the things, checking all the boxes for that old identity.

[00:12:17] But there was this new identity that didn't know how to burst itself forward because it was using the tools from the old identity. And I hear that in your story. It's this. And that's actually a sweet spot. In hindsight, I mean, it's kind of, I've heard people call it the. Dark night of the soul.

[00:12:41] Like these moments where it's, yeah, this reckoning and this reckoning happens after every single change. Good or bad. We get married, there's a reckoning. You have a baby, there's a reckoning, you get a new job, you move that. Like there's so [00:13:00] many places where we have these opportunities to restore ourselves.

[00:13:05] Shift is really hard. You and I have lived it, but I'm wondering what was it like, how did you reclaim that part of yourself and make that huge shift to say, okay, goodbye corporate America? On my own. Yeah. Yes. 

[00:13:25] The Concept of Integrity

[00:13:25] I mean, integrity. 

[00:13:27] When 

[00:13:28] you bring that up too, I that just, 

[00:13:30] I'll speak 

[00:13:31] to that for a minute because that was such a big lesson for me and I've been doing work with understanding my value was for years now, but when I really sat down and was honest with myself, I used to think integrity was.

[00:13:47] Following through with the things that I said I was gonna do, which it is for me, 

[00:13:52] and 

[00:13:53] I was using it to follow through with everything that I was doing for everyone else. So in my head I had rationalized, I'm [00:14:00] in integrity because 

[00:14:02] I'm 

[00:14:02] following through with everything I committed to for everyone else.

[00:14:07] And, hold on one sec. I need you to repeat that. 

[00:14:12] GMT20251201-150215_Recording_gvo_1280x720: I 

[00:14:12] am following through with everything I needed to do and committed to for everyone else and therefore I am in integrity therefore I believed I was in integrity. What I realized. Was, I became the lowest person on the totem pole for all of my needs, for all of the things that I needed to do, for all of the commitments that I was making, my making for myself.

[00:14:41] And it wasn't until my coach at the time who was looking at me saying, okay, I get it. You're in integrity with all these other things. But you are not following through with anything for yourself. So how is that integrity? And I just went, [00:15:00] Ooh, what? And it was one of those light bulb moments that just slapped me in the face and made me realize.

[00:15:10] Yeah, no wonder my self trust is low. No wonder I don't have the confidence to go off and do something on my own right now because I'm constantly serving others and telling my subconscious mind that I'm not important. 

[00:15:28] Because I'm 

[00:15:28] not doing that stuff. And it was through those connections where I decided, okay, if I need to be in integrity with myself, what needs to shift?

[00:15:38] What needs to change? And what are the things that are most important to me? And you know what? It involved having conversations with people boundaries, 

[00:15:48] following 

[00:15:48] through with things that made me feel super uncomfortable because God forbid Natasha wants to take some time to go and have a walk. When I'm saying no to someone else who needs [00:16:00] something done like that internal struggle was tough, but it was a decision that I had made that I was ready to play in this space, to restore integrity with myself, no matter how challenging those awkward conversations were gonna be or what that meant for me to step into it was what was necessary and putting myself first.

[00:16:22] I know people are gonna rewind and play that over and over and over again as a reminder to self that I love the word play that you can play in this space and allow yourself to be in integrity. Yeah. And it's not easy. It's not easy to say no to people that you've always said yes to. Yeah.

[00:16:43] It's not easy to put yourself first when you probably grew up believing that was selfish that you should be giving and there's no, no receiving that is taught to us. You brought up the word. Decision. 

[00:16:59] Decision Making and Overcoming Indecision

[00:16:59] And [00:17:00] I went to a conference a while ago and one of the speakers said, the Latin root of the word decide is to cut off.

[00:17:11] And so when you decide, you cut off all the other choices. I thought that is so powerful for a woman. For anybody that is. people pleaser kind of misaligned with their personal integrity. It's this idea of, oh, if I'm going to decide if I'm going to make the decision, I'm gonna live in integrity.

[00:17:40] Then it cuts off my need for validation. Of other people, it cuts off. I mean, it just makes the nose a little more, a little easier, and Yes, is a little more powerful to decide. [00:18:00] Absolutely. You're making, you're drawing a line in the sand and you're committing to it, and there's something there. I think about all of the, like the times where I struggled the most was when I was in a place of indecision.

[00:18:15] When you are struggling with like, do I do this? Don't I do this? Do I do this? Don't I do this? Well, this is, these are all the reasons why I could, these are all the reasons why I shouldn't. These are all the re and you can drive yourself absolutely mental, but as soon as you make a decision, it's like all of that goes away.

[00:18:32] And you can use it as, this is just gonna give me data on what's gonna allow me to take me to what that next step. 

[00:18:41] GMT20251201-150215_Recording_gvo_1280x720: And what 

[00:18:41] I have found, and me personally, it's been something that I've been working on for a while now, is get outta your head of people pleasing and make a decision based on the information that you have and know that this decision is gonna take you to that next spot, but make a decision.

[00:18:57] I would sit in decisions. so much thinking I gotta make [00:19:00] the right call. I gotta make sure that. You know, this is having a big impact on all these other people, and so I would assess every single response before I stepped forward. And it was like I was taking decision making so far too seriously in so many ways and putting too much pressure on it that it was stopping me from moving forward.

[00:19:23] And so 

[00:19:23] it was getting really comfortable with, I'm making a decision. it may be right, it may be wrong but I'm making a decision to move forward because this is what makes sense at this time. But yeah, the indecision feeling of overcomplicating things and doing it for the wrong reasons and thinking about a thousand different avenues as to how this would play out is where we really get stuck.

[00:19:48] Yeah, I can't, when you were talking and the way you're moving your hands, all I could think of was Medusa. I don't know, in Greek mythology what her purpose was, that she's the one with all the snakes in the head. 

[00:19:59] Yeah. 

[00:19:59] [00:20:00] And that is the indecision. It's like all these snakes, and then when you decide, it's like, okay bald.

[00:20:05] GMT20251201-150215_Recording_gvo_1280x720: bald. 

[00:20:07] Tell me what you've seen in your practice or maybe even your years in HR or personally as the cost of the misalignment, the cost of the lack of integrity with 

[00:20:20] Burnout and Misalignment in the Workplace

[00:20:20] self. the biggest one right now is burnout. I see so many people who are trying so hard. To do as much as they possibly can 

[00:20:31] and 

[00:20:32] are doing it at the cost of burning themselves out.

[00:20:35] And not seeing how they have choices in how to recreate this in a way that will allow them the space and have the alignment that they want to do their, do what they're meant to do their greatest work. exhaustion, burnout not feeling like they can [00:21:00] handle another decision, like over exhausting of decision making.

[00:21:05] I have women who are like, just let someone else make the call on this 'cause I don't even have the mental capacity for this or to hold it. And then how awesome does that feel to show up in that space? Not good at all, right? You're just. You're like, it feels like you're surviving. It feels like you are tapped out, and then you don't serve anyone well, really.

[00:21:26] So the ripple effect is you're not really having the impact that you wanna have. You're in a role because typically you wanna have a, an impact and know that the work that you're doing is helping other people in some way. And if you're not helping yourself, and it goes back to like fill your cup up first.

[00:21:45] We've all heard that language, but it's so true. And unless that doesn't happen, you know, serving others is, that's how I felt too going through it was I I wasn't serving people in a [00:22:00] way where it was feeling like I was having my biggest impact 'cause I was so stretched then. In that HR space did leaders, or did the, I know that HR is kind of stuck in this hotspot where their allegiance is to the upper management, but they're also serving the masses.

[00:22:24] Did or did you see kind of, evidence that this lack of integrity led to health issues where people were taking leaves, like even burnout and the connection of kind of, let me help these people be in integrity and then they'll be at work and their healthcare costs would be lower. And did you see any of that data actually in real time?

[00:22:54] Oh my gosh. The, like, you could just talk about engagement levels in general. [00:23:00] When people are excited and they're happy and they're feeling like they have energy in the work that they're doing, they are creative, they're innovative, they bring new ideas, they think differently. They think outside of the box.

[00:23:12] They are people who look for solutions. When you're tapped out and you're in misalignment because you're spending too much time serving others without connecting back to yourself. Then the way that I talk about it is like there's this disconnect between. 

[00:23:33] The Role of AI in Enhancing Human Connection

[00:23:46] Your heart and what you're meant to do and the work that you're doing or the things that you're saying, it becomes more transactional than connected with the work and that is the big piece that 

[00:23:50] GMT20251201-150215_Recording_gvo_1280x720: it, 

[00:23:53] we could 

[00:23:53] talk about ai, we could talk about like the technology that's advancing and how efficient it's making [00:24:00] things.

[00:24:00] Now with processes and whether you like AI or you don't like ai, what it is doing is it's helping us see where are the things that get to be automated, and creating that opportunity to think about where is it that we need to step into from a leadership perspective that's gonna connect our arts back together with each other.

[00:24:23] GMT20251201-150215_Recording_gvo_1280x720: And I see it as this beautiful opportunity to level up the connection piece back to ourselves, back to the people around us, because now we have this tool that's gonna help execute certain things in a way that makes it more efficient. So we can spend time doing the things that we're meant to do.

[00:24:45] Create the trust, create the connection, understand what's going on with people, be a provider of consultation, and helping them feel empowered also give ourselves the space to go, okay, I'm experiencing [00:25:00] change too. I am experiencing this organization going through a whole lot of transitions. How can I support myself through this too?

[00:25:08] What a beautiful view on ai, and I appreciate immensely because I've always looked at technology as a way to take care of the, It's to, I shouldn't use the word mundane, but the repetitive tasks so that we as humans can use these gifts like connecting our hearts back together. I love that phrase.

[00:25:34] And it makes me think about this idea, and you mentioned it. This energy. And this idea that it is not what you say, I mean, my, I think Maya Angelou is quoted as, it's not what you say, it's not what you do, it's how you make people feel. Yeah. And when you are feeling not well about something there's this idea of.[00:26:00]

[00:26:00] Stuffed emotions. When we have stuffed emotions, whatever they are. If they're against people circumstance and they're unexpressed, they're energetically in the room. So I can be saying you know, touting kind of the company, whatever, but if there's something innately inside of me that disagrees with how something is being done.

[00:26:27] I don't even have to talk. Yeah, I'm, I'm radiating that out. Somebody said you radiate from your heart center 50 feet away from you. Yes. So if that stuck, energy remains stuck, then that is what you're admitting. And so there's this beautiful gift I hear in using AI to. Maybe give you some time to tap into what like your heart mattering, like what is mattering in [00:27:00] my own heart?

[00:27:01] How do I express that so that I can encourage others to express what's mattering in their own hearts? Dang, that's a whole new spin on ai that Natasha, I think you should take that on the road. I, I love it and I believe it so much too. And there's. uh, I mean, I could talk about different ways that you can release the kinks that are stuck inside of you so that it can flow through and that energy can come out because I agree with you, as soon as you hold onto something and whether you're agreeing or disagreeing, people are gonna feel So it's how do you release that? How do you move it through your body? How do you. 

[00:27:43] The Power of Presence and Self-Reflection

[00:27:58] Allow yourself to come back and not a lot of us understand or un understand is the wrong word, but like know how to really ask ourselves those questions around. What it feels like to be fully present. Have 

[00:27:58] you ever sat [00:28:00] and just like didn't listen to music, didn't have a distraction on, turned your phone off and sat in complete silence and allowed your mind to just.

[00:28:12] Be 

[00:28:13] present and think about the air that you're breathing in and what you are meant to do. Like people don't do that very often because it feels so uncomfortable to be present with ourselves. And so unless there's intention around, yes, I love 

[00:28:31] that AI creates the space for us to play and to be present with ourselves.

[00:28:36] And it is going to take. Dedication, it's gonna take work to get there because it's just not a normal practice. And so creating that muscle or like building that muscle to do more of that is where I see things going in the future. Yes. And people like you and I, coaches, 

[00:28:59] [00:29:00] therapists I went to Buenos Aries once and somebody said to me, oh, everybody has.

[00:29:05] A therapist, it starts at like age eight. There are more therapists in Buenos Aries than any other profession. And I thought, wow, that's exciting because we do need these witnesses to help us through that. It's not work to be done in a vortex of you in an environment that has not changed. Yeah it's really stepping into those places and finding the right.

[00:29:31] Guide to help you back. One of the things that I think is so powerful about the HR role in general, when you think about this human resources. Mm-hmm. What a powerful title. Just the title you are managing the resources. Of humans. And what I just heard in you is this [00:30:00] invitation to use AI to serve the actual human resources that humans are capable of, that computers and animals are not this relational connection.

[00:30:17] And I also hear people. Have trouble getting quiet enough to have the ability to hear their own internal wisdom and their capacity to trust themselves, which maybe leaves them to distrust others or not open that. h How do you invite people into that space of hearing themselves? I mean. Do you lock them in a room and put 'em on a cushion?

[00:30:52] Embracing Change and Self-Discovery

[00:30:52] Tell 'em to hum. home? I probably, I think you the answer to that is a hot no.

[00:30:58] I don't force people into it. No. 

[00:30:59] GMT20251201-150215_Recording_gvo_1280x720: [00:31:00] But 

[00:31:01] people coming to, there's some people who. They're just at a point where they naturally are like, I am ready to change. I am ready for something, and I just really want some help in going through some steps that are gonna help me do that. And so I can create a framework in how to go there doing that to tap back into themselves, and it's coming back to their values.

[00:31:29] it's also like carving out the time to hear yourself think, to dream about the things that you want to allow yourself to think about. What, where do you feel pain? Where do you feel excitement? What does that look like? And how is that showing up for you right now? And starting to get into the practice of, these are the things that I'm doing on a day to day to day basis.

[00:31:54] What am I. 

[00:31:55] GMT20251201-150215_Recording_gvo_1280x720: What am 

[00:31:56] I tolerating? What am I okay with? What am I not [00:32:00] okay with, and how does that align back to my values and what's important to me? And going through a little bit of the self-discovery in that sense. 

[00:32:10] Building Team Trust and Alignment

[00:32:10] What I do love in teams when I work with them. that a lot of the time the problem that comes up is that they're trying to achieve a goal and everyone's working in different directions or they're confused 'cause they don't know exactly what their lane is or the, or.

[00:32:28] The team has experienced so much change that people are just kind of flander trying to make every, make it work as much as they can. It's not that people aren't working or trying hard, it's like they're trying too hard, but they're not talking. And so the piece that has. Them come back to like, who are they as a team is powerful because in that.

[00:32:52] I have work that we do together to help them understand, well, what's pissing you off and what's exciting you? And as soon as there's [00:33:00] conversations that are happening around those topics in a format where people are hearing each other, the trust level goes up and people are like, oh wait I actually am okay, even though I've shared something really personal.

[00:33:15] Okay. And when someone else talks and shares. An idea or a light bulb goes off with someone else who's in the room. And so it's this really powerful experience that happens together where It 

[00:33:29] gives them the space to be vulnerable, to talk about that, and suddenly by the end, we're creating alignment on where we're going we're solving the problems that needed to get solved, but the foundation had to happen first.

[00:33:43] The foundational conversations of connecting and vocalizing it and sharing it and talking to each other. So there's. 

[00:33:51] There's 

[00:33:51] some really powerful stuff that happens in my workshops because it just, yeah, it sets them up. And that's the big piece when people can talk about [00:34:00] things more and feel like they've got the space to comfortably do that, 

[00:34:04] trust 

[00:34:04] goes up, connection goes up, and things just become a lot easier. I always think about this work as, um, uh, 

[00:34:14] how it reverberates in the circles that we influence. And you just invited a different space where if you do this work on a team at work then 

[00:34:27] you can bring that work into your home and spin it in that circle that you influencer in the community. 

[00:34:36] Navigating Conflict with Confidence

[00:34:36] And one of the things I, I find.

[00:34:39] um, A lot in my practice, and this was me, is that people pleasing tendency is this kindness. I'm kind to people, which I am, I'm a kind person until I'm using that kindness against myself. And on the other side of that coin is often. [00:35:00] The resistance to conflict, the inability to deal with conflict. Like I just want it to go away and I will do anything, even abandon myself to make sure that happens.

[00:35:14] And in hindsight, I did that all the time in the workspace. And if somebody had said to me, you're conflict avoidant, I think I would've. I would've been in conflict with the person in that moment, like, how dare you call me conflict avoidant. 

[00:35:31] But 

[00:35:31] it is a real thing and there's 

[00:35:33] a 

[00:35:34] real, you know, we could go down the rabbit hole of attachment theory, but really when we're accommodating conflict avoidant, how do you help people distinguish between or reckon with.

[00:35:51] They're innate want or need to be kind and to bring the, you know, you know what I'm [00:36:00] saying? Yeah. Like how do you help people through this idea of it's not at either or? It's a both and or something. Yeah. Yeah. I totally know what you're saying. 

[00:36:12] This, 

[00:36:12] And it's almost like you have to redefine the word conflict in a way.

[00:36:18] Because conflict has negative connotation and anyone who holds that I'm conflict avoidant, or I don't want to be faced with an aggressive response because that is the thing that's going to like really shake me up. And so you end up deciding not to have conversation or you put it off, or Yeah, you just, you don't have it.

[00:36:38] But if conflict wasn't seen as an aggressive, negative way of interacting with people, and it was more about expressing your perspective and finding a way to move forward. Suddenly that changes in your mindset [00:37:00] of we don't have to have a conflict for the sake of conflict. It's like your goal, your purpose is about you arriving somewhere together and.

[00:37:15] The togetherness is the piece that typically gets people like more excited about it because the togetherness is the part that they need, the part that they're excited about. So have the focus be on this is where I wanna get to as a result of it. The conversation is just one of the steps to get there.

[00:37:37] But if we avoid it, then it just festers and it stores in us, and then we get resentful and all of those other pieces. So it's about building up some confidence to have the conversation in a way that feels authentic to you. You don't have to be abrasive about saying something either. It's what are you really sharing that's important about it?

[00:37:59] [00:38:00] For you and knowing that you can do that. 

[00:38:03] The Power of Vulnerability and Communication

[00:38:03] it comes back to the trust as well. When you have a team with you or you're working with people and that trust level has gone up high enough, it's so much easier to have a conversation with someone. 

[00:38:13] Mm-hmm. friends who I have built such solid trust with who?

[00:38:19] I would say I am, I disagree with this and I'm not okay with this. And this really bothers me. And I am, I have no idea how this is coming across right now, but I just feel like it's important for me to say this, and it gets responded with, I'm so happy that you shared that. 

[00:38:38] And 

[00:38:38] you just don't know what the outcome is gonna be until you start voicing some of the things that.

[00:38:44] Either bother you or they're coming up for you. Yeah, it just helps you move things forward. And so if you're sitting there thinking I am typically someone who likes to avoid conflict some of the questions to ask yourself are, you know, what is that [00:39:00] avoidance tendency holding you back from.

[00:39:02] Experiencing beyond the conflict. And if you can keep thinking about like, what's beyond that you're trying to achieve then you can create a little bit more courage and bravery to speak from your heart and say what's on your mind. The importance in reframing conflict to a, to an opportunity of, to an opportunity period. Yeah. Versus holding us back. reminds me of a friend who is a massage therapist and we were talking about 

[00:39:35] GMT20251201-150215_Recording_gvo_1280x720: about, 

[00:39:36] me and my conflict resistance, and she's like, Kathy, I'm relieving a nod of tension right now in your upper 

[00:39:43] traps, 

[00:39:45] and 

[00:39:45] why 

[00:39:45] do I have to do that? I have to press down on the pain.

[00:39:50] That's how I release it. Yes. And I was like, oh, so pressing [00:40:00] on the pain, as painful as this 30 seconds is, and it really is 30 seconds of getting you through that moment of difficulty in being able to speak from your heart. 

[00:40:15] GMT20251201-150215_Recording_gvo_1280x720: And 

[00:40:16] and experience what it feels like to do that in a safe place, even. In the massage or with a tr a friend that you've built that trust, it's really scary to do in new relationships or in relationships that that have an element of power or hierarchical.

[00:40:36] Yeah. And so in that space, in that HR role, putting that HR hat on, if there is a. Challenging conversation that needs to be had between someone and a leader or somebody above them. Does that change?

[00:40:56] Yeah. So I wanna come back to, like if you are, [00:41:00] here's some of the work that I do with clients when they're facing things like that, that they're getting stuck in. I have them come back to what's, everything ties back to a value in order to get the motivation. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:15] And if having the conversation is so important because the experience that they're having right now is misaligned to their values.

[00:41:26] Then it gives them that like, okay I really do need to say something 'cause this is really important to me. And typically if something is really important to you, you do overthink it and you do like, worry about how it's gonna come across. And you do think about all of those ways of doing it. But in simplest form, it's like, give yourself the permit.

[00:41:46] Okay, let's go back to integrity. Integrity is one of the values and. The way that something is happening right now or getting rolled out, it feels like [00:42:00] mixed messages or it feels like something is not working in the way it does, but this leader that you're working with is so passionate about it, has a certain way of doing it and really wants it to happen that way, and that's an uncomfortable situation to be in because then you're faced with, how do I.

[00:42:18] How do I raise this? Because I know they're not even thinking about being open-minded to a different way of, of doing it. It's like you're inserting yourself and then you've gotta sort of figure out how to have that conversation. But if you know that 

[00:42:31] at 

[00:42:31] the end of the day what your goal is to help execute something that's going to have the biggest impact in a positive way with the organization, with employees, then you can take that and say, okay, what is it?

[00:42:44] That I wanna say that's most important. How do I wanna say this in a way so that it explains exactly the impact that it would have 

[00:42:53] and 

[00:42:53] be brave enough to have the conversation and go in and speak to that senior leader. The other thing [00:43:00] that I talk about is you don't have to, you don't have to jump into the hardest conversation right away either.

[00:43:07] Mm-hmm. Like to your point, when you're building this muscle, it's about. Pushing beyond the line of the discomfort in certain situations that are gonna allow you to build that muscle so that when you get to that situation, you have more confidence to do it as well. So it really depends how much of a stretch it's going to like for you.

[00:43:30] But I am such a believer and if this feels scary, if this feels like you're just so uncomfortable. This is the place that you're gonna wanna play. 'cause this is where the change is gonna happen. So the more that you can lean into those feelings of, oh, I'm feeling really nervous right now. Okay, I'm gonna support my nervous system.

[00:43:49] I'm gonna settle so I can have clear a clear head as I'm heading into this. And these are the three speaking points that I know are really important to me, that I'm gonna [00:44:00] make sure that I talk about and I'm going to schedule it and make it happen and go and have the conversation. Keep doing that as disco like as kind uncomfortable as that feels.

[00:44:11] 'cause that will keep building that confidence doing it. Whew. Okay. That was beautiful. And I have to highlight one thing that is, was weaving through that whole share, which is, you don't come at this from a defensive, Um, tactic like that is not solving anything. We are not defending, we're not armoring up.

[00:44:36] What I heard you say is the four steps is what can I do right now to support my nervous system? How can I get my head clear? How can I a attribute my speaking points to what is valuable to me, and then schedule the time. Do the hard thing that is an openhearted [00:45:00] entry to a conversation versus a defensive.

[00:45:06] I've gotta guard something, I've gotta armor up to have this conversation. Whole different energy. So when you walk into the room with this leader who has this beautiful plan in their mind, enter armored up. You'll get armored up back, so it's everybody's on the defensive, so Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:45:32] The other 

[00:45:32] thing I would add to it as well is come with some curiosity in maybe, I don't know everything that's going on either, and maybe there's something that will open up from this conversation that will help us get to an even better place than where we're at right now. Yes, I think curiosity is queen. If you start, if you have any question of how to enter a conversation, starting it with, I'm [00:46:00] curious. About it just peels away the armor without anybody even realizing it.

[00:46:06] It's like a magic little pixie dust It just everybody gets naked. The phrase that I love using is, can you help me understand? Mm. 

[00:46:20] That's a good one. Suddenly everyone's body language just drops and it's like, yeah, I can tell you a little bit more about this. And it's 

[00:46:30] it's 

[00:46:31] allowing yourself to put a framework around where you're confused, 

[00:46:38] where 

[00:46:38] you're stuck, where you need more information, where you see a disconnect and opening it up for their perspective.

[00:46:46] Can you help me understand? 

[00:46:49] What 

[00:46:50] your vision is here or what impact you wanna have here, or any of that. I love that 

[00:46:56] GMT20251201-150215_Recording_gvo_1280x720: statement. 

[00:46:57] Yes. Help me understand. It [00:47:00] really is an in invitation to another human to have them share something about what they believe in. Yeah. 

[00:47:07] GMT20251201-150215_Recording_gvo_1280x720: Wow. 

[00:47:08] And putting it out there that you're willing to learn and you're willing to hear and you want to.

[00:47:14] Mm-hmm. Just, it changes the dynamics of the conversation. So expansive. 

[00:47:21] Reflection and Self-Compassion

[00:47:22] So if if our listener is that burnt out, exhausted human that is maybe entering 2026 with this list of to-dos or to bes and haven't quite figured out how to. Get from here to there. What's the first step that you'd invite that human to do to tap into their own resources?

[00:47:52] I love this idea of human resources. So good. So good. 

[00:47:58]

[00:47:58] Spend some time [00:48:00] with yourself. Mm. The num. I know it sounds so basic, but carve out some time for yourself to go for a walk where you can almost take stock of what's working and what's not working, and acknowledge. What you want to achieve in this next year.

[00:48:28] You know, you don't have to go 10 years from now. What do I wanna accomplish? But you can say, you know, what is it a year from now? This is such great timing too, because we're just like finishing off the year we're going into the new year. Like, what is it that I really want to. Sh like really enjoy in life in the next year in my life, in my work, in my relationships, in my finances, in all of these things, and contemplate it on where you find joy in those areas [00:49:00] and ask yourself the hard questions.

[00:49:04] Why is this not showing up for me right now? Mm-hmm. What is it that I am doing? Either tolerating or decisions that I'm making that are not allowing me to get there yet, and what needs to change and be just honest with yourself. I remember going through 

[00:49:30] just unpacking all of this for myself and realizing.

[00:49:34] I was saying all of these things were happening to me I was exhausted and I was strapped thin, and my relationships were not going well, and I wasn't showing up as a parent the way that I wanted to for my kids. 

[00:49:48] And 

[00:49:49] I was I had this amazing team that I was leading and I felt like I was so over-serving and, and.

[00:49:59] I [00:50:00] looked at it and I was like, well, this is happening. This is how I have kids and I have this, and I I have all these things. And then I realized, 

[00:50:08] GMT20251201-150215_Recording_gvo_1280x720: but 

[00:50:09] I am creating all of this. 

[00:50:14] GMT20251201-150215_Recording_gvo_1280x720: Mm-hmm. Right? 

[00:50:16] And it was this moment of like, yeah, I can sit here and complain about all of the things that are happening to me or.

[00:50:26] I can look at my life almost like a science project. Go, okay, wait, what do I want it to look like and what needs to change? what's so uncomfortable about that? What am I willing to let go of? And sometimes there's just power in knowing that this is what I'm tolerating and I'm still gonna tolerate that because that's what I'm just gonna do.

[00:50:50] But owning the toleration. And just getting really honest with yourself about [00:51:00] what is it that you're willing to do in order to help you get to where you wanna be, and what do you want to let go of as a result of that? Taking time for reflection, and I love that word too, reflection. Let it reflect back to me. And even as you spoke, I can sense an old version of me saying, 

[00:51:25] GMT20251201-150215_Recording_gvo_1280x720: well, 

[00:51:25] that will be an ugly conversation between me, myself and I. And there's such a tendency to just rip ourselves down in that process of, I'm not doing this, I'm not doing this, I'm not doing this.

[00:51:39] I can't. Hold up to this. I, and there's this practice that Julie Nee, a woman that was on the podcast before, I can't remember her book, 

[00:51:50] but 

[00:51:50] she has this exercise she does with groups where she says, I want you to write down like some of the terrible things that you say to yourself on a [00:52:00] constant basis.

[00:52:01] And so she's like, everybody's feverishly kinda writing down, and then she's like, okay. I want you to hand that to the person next to you. And I want that person to say it out loud to you. And these people, total strangers, were like, I'm not saying that to you. That's really mean. That's a mean girl.

[00:52:23] So this reflection, 

[00:52:28] is 

[00:52:28] there a way that you invite people to not skip over that? 'cause I don't wanna bypass. The noise in the head, but the noise in the head is real. Those voices are real. Is there something that you invite people to do so that they can get to the point of self-compassionate reflection?

[00:52:51] Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:51] Gratitude and Forgiveness

[00:52:51] Absolutely the, 

[00:52:53] we 

[00:52:54] can go down a slippery slope of negativity when we're [00:53:00] rehashing all of the shoulds, all the things that we could do, all the things that we should do better. The part that I love spending time in is around forgiveness. 

[00:53:12] GMT20251201-150215_Recording_gvo_1280x720: Mm-hmm. 

[00:53:14] And it is this way when we forgive ourselves not for like, I forgive this person for doing this thing that really bothered me.

[00:53:25] It's what are you willing to forgive yourself for? Because that was the information that you had at that time 

[00:53:34] Hmm. 

[00:53:37] and it is this like shift that happens. Where you then take, you have accountability for it, but you also release the tie to it. 

[00:53:49] GMT20251201-150215_Recording_gvo_1280x720: And 

[00:53:50] if you're finding that you're getting down this road of all these things that you're not doing that you wanna do, or all of these things that are bothering you and frustrating you, it is [00:54:00] so great to know this.

[00:54:02] And then the next step is forgive yourself. For these pieces, because once you've forgiven yourself, then you're creating the space to start inviting in new thinking and new ways of doing that is gonna replace the negative stuff that was there. And then I work with clients on how to really embed that for themselves too.

[00:54:26] So it's forgiving a previous version, which is really special the way that you just articulated that. It was, even if it was a version of you five minutes ago, you had less information at that moment. So forgiving the previous versions of yourself that were doing the best they could so that you can move forward in these new versions with new information and not have it so, stamped on by.

[00:54:59] You can't do [00:55:00] anything about anymore. Right, right. That's the other thing. It's like you can't change the past a hundred percent and gratitude from the place of gratitude of the lessons that you learned along the way. 

[00:55:10] Mm. 

[00:55:11] Yeah. And a lot of the time we think of gratitude as you know, a little bit surface level gratitude for, you know, the streets that we get to drive on gratitude for the house that we're living on, gratitude for the relationships, and those are all really good things.

[00:55:29] And to take it even a level deeper, it's like I have gratitude that I went through this really tough time. 

[00:55:37] Because 

[00:55:38] Here's the lesson that it taught me, and here's how it's evolved me into who I am today. And then it has this different level of appreciation that you can carry forward so that you are not holding onto those kinks in your body.

[00:55:52] It's like 

[00:55:53] the 

[00:55:54] allowing it to flow through back to what we were starting. 

[00:55:57] GMT20251201-150215_Recording_gvo_1280x720: To child. 

[00:55:57] Oh. 

[00:55:58] Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[00:55:59] Which is a perfect [00:56:00] segue into our, 

[00:56:01] the end 

[00:56:02] of our time together. I'm so grateful for you sharing your genius. This has been such a great, and I really do think it's a good beginning of the year contemplation almost.

[00:56:14] I have one last question. 

[00:56:16] If I 

[00:56:17] were to crush your essence up and put it in pill form, what effect would you have on someone taking that pill? Oh, Expansion.

[00:56:38] Yeah. I think anybody listening to the last uh. Has felt that these places that feel really painful, you just kind of put the finger on it for a minute and then release, which. 

[00:56:52] GMT20251201-150215_Recording_gvo_1280x720: It 

[00:56:53] was very expansive. I am so grateful for your gift of time. This has been such a treasure. Thank you [00:57:00] so much, Kathy. This has been so fun.

[00:57:02] I look forward to hearing more about what you do and how you do it. I know that you have some work workshops coming up in January, so, definitely show notes. People will have all that detail there For Natasha's offerings and I. Wish you a fabulous holiday. Thank you. You do Be well. 

[00:57:24] ​