Ep. 67 - Get Curious Instead of Critical with Rose Ann Cerofeci

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You’ve been living like it’s your job to fix everything—worrying, over-managing, and carrying the emotional labor—only to realize it’s exhausting and not actually working. In this episode, professor and coach Rose Ann Cerofeci shares how curiosity can interrupt shame, soften control patterns, and help you shift from fixer to witness—at home, at work, and in your own body.

Topics discussed:

• People-pleasing and “fixer” identity patterns
• Curiosity to interrupt shame and self-criticism
• Anxiety, isolation, and “failure to launch” after COVID
• Smartphones, attention, and social disconnection
• Surrender vs giving up (emotional resilience)
• Identity shifts that create self-advocacy

View extended shownotes here

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Transcript

 Ep. 67- Get Curious Instead of Critical with Rose Ann Cerofeci

Ep. 67- Get Curious Instead of Critical with Rose Ann Cerofeci

[00:00:00] Introduction and Greetings

[00:00:00] Have you ever felt like it's your job to fix everything? Like if you just worry hard enough or care more deeply or manage perfectly enough, you can control the outcome? Mm. Exhausting, right? It's also a lie. Ugh. I know because this is how I've lived most of my life. But today's conversation is with Roseanne Icci, a college professor who's been teaching the same age students for 20 years while watching them change dramatically, especially after COVID.

[00:00:36] What she discovered in her classroom mirrors what so many of us are discovering in our own lives. That curiosity might be the most powerful tool we have for breaking free from the patterns that no longer serve us. Roseanne shares how her own journey from fixer to witness, from worry to unconditional [00:01:00] love came through one of the hardest challenges a mother can face.

[00:01:05] And what she learned didn't just transform her relationship with her son, it changed how she shows up everywhere. We're diving into why surrender isn't giving up, why curiosity interrupts shame, and why worrying isn't actually love. And how changing one simple belief can shift your entire identity. This conversation is for every human who's ever thought their worth was measured by how well they could fix everyone else's problems, pour yourself some coffee.

[00:01:43] This one's gonna land.

[00:02:33] Kathy Washburn: Welcome Roseanne, Sara Fiche. How are you today in sunny California? 

[00:02:39] Rose Ann Cerofeci: I know. I'm doing great. I feel very blessed to be here for sure. I know you guys are experiencing some terrible storms.

[00:02:48] Kathy Washburn: Oh, it's beautiful though. There's nothing more magical to me than a completely white canvas. It's just I don't know. It reminds me like, okay, we can begin again [00:03:00] in this breath, and the next breath and the madness that's going on in the world. It just gives me hope of, okay, it's a new moment. Let's try it again.

[00:03:11] Rose Ann Cerofeci: What a beautiful way to view that. You know? I mean, it really is. I mean, I think it is beautiful too, but what a beautiful way to look at it. 

[00:03:17] Kathy Washburn: Well, I am excited for this conversation. I often explain to people how we're connected and you come to me via a very dear friend of mine Dina.

[00:03:28] Kathy Washburn: She is a mad connector and every time she has connected me with somebody, she's so spot on. I feel like she's the universe's right arm and her husband, 

[00:03:39] Rose Ann Cerofeci: I was a red person. 

[00:03:40] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Yeah. I feel the same 

[00:03:41] Kathy Washburn: way. So delighted to have you. And we'll have your bio and stuff in the show notes, but I would love for you just to introduce yourself to the audience in the, in a weird narrative coaching way where I'm gonna give you a prompt.

[00:03:57] Kathy Washburn: And the prompt is once upon a [00:04:00] time. 

[00:04:00] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Okay. That's a hard one because, you know, it's so life's so it's not linear. Right. So I, I guess if I could say once upon a time from the person that I am now, and the work that I'm doing now to the before mm-hmm. The once upon a time me is there was a time when I really had a false belief that it was my job and even sillier my ability to fix everything.

[00:04:32] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Right. So this sense that I had to come into all of my situations and this infiltrated every part of my life. You know, my personal, my professional, my my marriage, my, you know, every part of my life where I knew that I, you know, oh, it's my job to fix. And I think a lot of women experience this. If I take it back I, you know, I believe it. It originates from I'm the oldest of seven children. Oh, not oldest, [00:05:00] second oldest girl. I'm the oldest girl of seven children and grew up in a very chaotic household. And the reason why I said the oldest at first is because being the oldest girl, my father is a first generation Italian, IM, you know, Italian and very much, you know, the women take on the roles of caretaker.

[00:05:21] Rose Ann Cerofeci: So it was my job, you know, I mean, at a very young age, I was put into this, you fix, you take care. You are the one who has to create the, I don't know, I felt like it was my job to, to take down the chaos. And it's interesting because I think if you ask my siblings, they would probably say what she was creating, the chaos and.

[00:05:44] Rose Ann Cerofeci: When I think about it from that perspective, it was because I was trying so hard to to make it not chaotic that I felt like was my job. That when you're too young to understand how to do that, you're just kind of screaming at people trying to make things, trying to fix it, right?

[00:05:59] Rose Ann Cerofeci: [00:06:00] So, you know, and then I went into the rest of my life always trying to, feeling like it was my job to fix every situation and, until I couldn't, you know, until I was faced with a you know, what really brought me to this work was when I was struggling with one of my sons and when I just had to finally come to the space where I couldn't fix him, and it's such a painful place to live, but, oh my gosh, such a powerful paradigm shift in the way that I live my life.

[00:06:33] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Mm. First of all, 

[00:06:35] Kathy Washburn: you are not alone. I think there are so many women. We have been shaped with this predisposition to be the fixer. There was a woman I had on this podcast, her name's Ri Hope, and I can't even remember how I came upon her.

[00:06:54] Kathy Washburn: She's a singer songwriter, and she wrote this song, not My job. [00:07:00] It's stunning. She's a young woman, which I always, my heart goes pitter-patter. Like, wow, you're figuring this out in your thirties. No, you, the world can change. But there is this this sense, this like nature and nurture, and I've often heard.

[00:07:19] Kathy Washburn: that expression. As within, so without you have to like fix yourself so the world changes. But actually when we're children, we can't, that, that can't even happen until we become adults so that we can do that inner our work for the outer movement to happen. I can almost see you in this for some reason.

[00:07:44] Kathy Washburn: I have you at a big, long dinner table. I've have friends that I went to when I was younger. I went to this friend's house and she was Italian. And I come from this very Protestant milky Toast. Everybody sits at the same place. [00:08:00] You don't really talk during dinner. And I went to her house. I was like, oh my God, what is happening?

[00:08:06] Kathy Washburn: Everybody's talking and they're hugging each other and they're yelling at each other and then hugging each other. And I thought, oh my God, that's possible. Like you can have emotion and contact and not where I grew up. So we are so shaped by our the way we came into this world and before you and I spoke and we both have tattoos and there, there were both, put on us in our fifties. 

[00:08:37] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Yeah. 

[00:08:38] Kathy Washburn: And you have a tattoo that says surrender. And I think this ties a little bit to the story that you just started to tap into, but you mentioned it that it came from this profound realization about your son's healing journey, which kind of became your own. Can you just share a little more about [00:09:00] that?

[00:09:00] Kathy Washburn: Like what was the kind of broken opening where you had that? Wow. 

[00:09:07] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Yeah. It's such a great question. It. 

[00:09:10] The Power of Surrender

[00:09:10] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And I think that word surrender sort of encapsulates that moment where I finally realized, and I think, you know, surrender's an interesting word, right? Because especially for women who are fixers, and I'm sure you know a lot of your listeners are, because it feels like, oh, if I'm surrendering, I'm giving up.

[00:09:28] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And that's actually the opposite. You know, when you're surrendering, you're empowering. What, what needs to emerge? And for me it was. You know, I was trying so hard to fix and let me be clear, fix it. Women do awesome stuff. Do, I mean that narrative, that belief system served me very well. You know, I mean, I was a get it done, ambitious, do you know, [00:10:00] like, so it worked.

[00:10:01] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And but the problem is that it was coming from the wrong space, right? It's coming from an energy, like almost like a negative, like a, oh yeah, I'll show you. I can do this. Instead of the, when it shifted to the space of surrendering, it came from a very softer space filled with love and gratitude.

[00:10:26] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And the shift. I, so really what happened is when you know, when you're trying to fix something that you can't, there's a lot of fear associated with that, right? I mean, a lot of fear that this wasn't working. And then especially with children, that fear just really manifested as I, I just worry. Like I was worried all the time.

[00:10:50] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And I was talking, I was in talking to my therapist at the time, and she was like, you know, what is it about the worrying? And I said, you know, when you worry, you feel like you're [00:11:00] doing, when you don't, when you can't fix, then you worry because worrying, at least you're doing something right. 

[00:11:06] Kathy Washburn: Wow. Yes. 

[00:11:07] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And when you're worrying and you're doing that, you feel like, you're like, well, I'm, this is, of course I'm worrying because I'm doing something.

[00:11:15] Rose Ann Cerofeci: I'm trying I'm, I'm, I'm I'm coming from a place of love. I'm trying, I'm fixing this. I'm worrying. Then, you know, she said in this moment, and it has so stuck with me, she said, you know, worrying is not unconditional love.

[00:11:32] Rose Ann Cerofeci: that just hit me so hard. And I was like, because the worrying feel felt like, well, I love you so much, I'm gonna worry about you all the time. She says, you know, when you're worrying about something, that's your agenda, you are worried that it's not gonna work out the way you think it should work out.

[00:11:54] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Well, maybe I came up with, I don't know, like after I thought about it and I was like, it's so true. Like when I'm worrying because I'm thinking that it's supposed to [00:12:00] be this way and I can't get it to be this way. And so that's not unconditionally loving this person that is having an agenda for them, that I think that their path should be the way that I want it to be.

[00:12:14] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And so unconditional love is then just holding the space and allowing them to have their life, their journey, and just being there rather than trying to fix it or change it. And then that ability to say like, okay, I don't, I'm not actually loving him when I'm worrying. So if I just surrender to the, I can't, I don't have the control.

[00:12:45] Rose Ann Cerofeci: But if I can just sit here and. You know, be in a space of love. That surrendering, again, is empowering to allow what is supposed to emerge, come through. And it's not, you know, I used to feel like, oh, well maybe [00:13:00] I'm tapping out, but it's actually the opposite of tapping out. It's actually bringing in, you know, so it was really, and then, you know, it started to, I, you, I started to be able to practice this in all spaces of my life, and it just, when I saw the results, I was like, okay, I can't deny that this actually works.

[00:13:21] Kathy Washburn: Wow. I love that idea of surrendering, being powerful versus that sense of like, I give up, like when you say surrender, I almost wanna put my hands up, like I surrender, like I give up. 

[00:13:36] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:36] Kathy Washburn: But it's not giving up at, at all. It's. It's giving into, if we're gonna give anything giving into, you are reminding me of Parker Palmer's work where he talks about presence.

[00:13:51] Kathy Washburn: When you're really able to be present with another human, you welcome their soul to show up. If we [00:14:00] show up trying to fix or, , I impend more information. Like if you're trying to should all over another person, then.

[00:14:11] Kathy Washburn: Their souls go running back into the forest. Mm-hmm. They, it's not a safe place to come out. And what you are experiencing is exactly what Parker Palmer talks about is this presence, there's so much ease in this presence. Mm-hmm. Because it's a reciprocal energy that's going back and forth versus this one way energy because the other person, their soul ran back into the forest.

[00:14:42] Kathy Washburn: There's no mm-hmm. There's no coming back into, and it's such a powerful way to be in relationship with other people. And you do extraordinary work with our young adult community. 

[00:14:58] Kathy Washburn: And that's [00:15:00] I wanna dive into your work because it is, as a college professor in this day and age, it's interesting that you were witnessing a health crisis, both in this personal space with your young adult son and as a college professor with the, this cadre of youth you know, after COVID and just this I'd never heard this phrase before you introduced it, this failure to launch.

[00:15:31] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:31] Kathy Washburn: This struggle with life and how to move forward. What patterns started emerging that made you realize something so fundamental had shifted in how young adults navigate becoming themselves? 

[00:15:48] Rose Ann Cerofeci: It is such a unique positioning that I have because, you know, I've been in the classroom for 20 years and for 20 years they've been 18.

[00:15:58] Rose Ann Cerofeci: I keep changing, [00:16:00] I keep getting older. That's, my audience is always 18. Right? 

[00:16:04] Kathy Washburn: I don't know. You look pretty young to me, Roseanne. 

[00:16:07] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Well, thank you. Bye. But it's so interesting, right? Because when I started in the classroom, my, I had a 4-year-old and they were 18, and now that 4-year-old is 25 and they're still 18.

[00:16:22] Rose Ann Cerofeci: So my personal ability to watch kids grow, like, and my perspective , I've been able to see the same age constantly year by year. So it's really interesting, like, you know, it's almost like a documentary where you have the same age year by year.

[00:16:37] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And so. There really is, like, the kids are so different and it really started with like when smartphones became really ubiquitous, right? I mean, like it was at the beginning I remember us all complaining about, oh, I can't get 'em off their phones. And, you know, before you're walking down the classroom, down the hallway and all the [00:17:00] kids are in there before class and everybody's talking and chatting and whatever.

[00:17:03] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Now you walk down the hallway when you're gonna class and nobody's talking and they're all like this, every single one of 'em. And it became very disruptive in the classroom and we didn't really know how to handle it. 'cause they're adults, you can't make them so there was a lot of less speaking, a lot of less community.

[00:17:19] Rose Ann Cerofeci: A lot less engagement in the classroom. A lot of distraction. Then when COVID hit it, , and then it really changed. And when everybody came back you know, everybody was wearing masks and I mean, the, nobody would, there was just no speaking at all.

[00:17:37] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Like, kids were just frozen. And it was such an interesting, and it was so sad. And I mean, I had kids when we first went back into the classroom, you know, everybody was masked, including me. And then we were, when the masks band was lifted, there were still students who would wear masks all through class.

[00:17:58] Rose Ann Cerofeci: For a long time. [00:18:00] And I thought, you know, this is a social mask now. Like, it got to the point because they're 18, they're not worried about getting sick, let's be honest. And so they just were so afraid to have to like, it protected them. You know, like, this mask, maybe my professor won't call on me. Maybe I don't have to talk to my neighbor.

[00:18:19] Rose Ann Cerofeci: It became this crutch almost. and then like, even just really interesting, like lots of parents coming to try to help me understand their children panic attacks. Can't get to the classroom. I'm having a panic attack. You know, we used to laugh because every student used to send you emails like, oh, I'm sorry, I can't come to classroom.

[00:18:39] Rose Ann Cerofeci: My homework's not done because my grandmother died. And it was always like a joke. Like, how many grand, how many times did your grandmother die? You know? Now every email, every excuse is, I'm sorry, I'm just not doing well. My mental health, I'm struggling with depression. I mean, what's good is they're talking about it, but it is just, you know, it is [00:19:00] constant.

[00:19:00] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Can I talk to you after class? I have so much anxiety. I can't do this. I'm really struggling. I can't get my papers in. I'm really struggling with depression. 

[00:19:09] Kathy Washburn: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:10] Rose Ann Cerofeci: It's they're really in a crisis. And I'll tell you what AI isn't. Now, I think we're gonna hit another wave of it because now so many students, I was reading something the other day and it was like one in five teenagers has had a romantic relationship with an AI bot.

[00:19:30] Rose Ann Cerofeci: 72% have used AI for companionship. So. we, Jonathan Het does a lot of work on this generation around cell phones and his anxious generation. And I'm like, I feel like it's the isolated generation. Like they're so isolated and they're trying to find their human, you know, sense of connection.

[00:19:49] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And now they have this bot that's helping them do it instead of being forced to go back out into understanding and gaining community. It's really [00:20:00] dangerous, you know, I think 

[00:20:02] Kathy Washburn: it's so dangerous and I can just imagine over those 20 years watching that shift of, and it's really to a disconnection and now isolation.

[00:20:19] Kathy Washburn: There's somewhere in that journey. You have this, just get curious it became your North Star both as a tagline and an actual framework that you brought into the classroom. And what I love about this, before you even explain what it is as in the world today, so many people see things that are frustrating and driving them, you know, to anxiousness or, but action is the antidote, like doing something about it.

[00:20:57] Kathy Washburn: The way I always describe it is like, you can [00:21:00] only armchair adventure for so long. You know, we can all sit here and read about it and talk about it, but experiencing it firsthand and. Doing something about it. That's the trip. And you have gone on a trip. Let's just get curious. Can you walk us through how curiosity actually became the tool versus all the other approaches that you could have chosen?

[00:21:28] Embracing Curiosity as a Tool

[00:21:28] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Yeah, I mean, I just think that curiosity is so powerful and curiosity is an interrupter. It takes the shame out of the feelings, it invites in and level of compassion and humor into our behaviors and our understanding. And a lot of my work is based in neuroscience. So, you know, understanding the way that our brain works and our belief [00:22:00] systems so when.

[00:22:02] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Curiosity, a lot of our belief systems and our false narratives, including mine, about, oh, I need to fix this, right? These are wired into the way that our brain this is the way that our brain works. And unfortunately, our brain really loves patterns. It has, our brain doesn't have any judgment, doesn't know that fixing that's gonna be good or bad for me, right?

[00:22:22] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Doesn't know that isolating myself in my room is bad for me. It just knows that this is familiar and this is what I'm doing and this has worked and like COVID made it so, normal, right? Like this is familiar. This is the patterns that we do. So your brain doesn't, when you start to change, it doesn't like it.

[00:22:40] Rose Ann Cerofeci: It's gonna search out experiences that help you to go back into that same pattern, even if it's not a healthy pattern. So when we wanna make changes, it's really hard 'cause we're actually working against. Our brain science. But curiosity is like the one powerful thing because it interrupts [00:23:00] that neural pathway and forces you to start to create a new one.

[00:23:06] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And that, you know, that takes times. But that's the way that when we say, oh, okay. Why is it that I wanna sit in my room when, you know, when, why is it comfortable to sit in my room and be isolated and be on my phone when I really don't wanna do that? Where is that coming from? And when we start to ask questions, we get out of the shame cycle.

[00:23:27] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Instead of going, I suck. I'm sitting in my room and I suck, and I have no, you know, like it's, well, why do I wanna do this? Or, what's making me feel this way? Or you're just interrupting that, that pathway and then giving yourself an opportunity to open another door. Again, I think that shame is so, I mean, you know, everybody from every age, like shame is such a powerful like emotion.

[00:23:52] Rose Ann Cerofeci: It's such a low vibration emotion too. But man, is it, you know, we all have cringe moments. You know, we all wanna, [00:24:00] you know, we don't, and then we get in these shame cycles and it's debilitating. And I think that this is what happens with my students, right? You know, a lot of times they're like, oh, I didn't do that homework.

[00:24:08] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And instead of getting curious, it's about, well, what was that about? It's, oh, I suck. I'm a terrible student. I knew I was gonna do this again. And then they feel shame. I can't talk to my teacher. I'm so embarrassed. I don't wanna go to, you know, and this is again, with everything. I can't go out. I can't do this.

[00:24:24] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And you know, so I started, well, okay, let me, I really hold a space where, okay, that's fine. I don't have any judgment. Remember, one of the things I love to, and I really believe is, you know, every behavior has a positive intention. Every behavior. So if you can start and look at your bad behaviors and go let me get curious about that.

[00:24:45] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And what positive intention was that behavior fulfilling. You know, every behavior has a positive intention, so you kind of then can be, have some compassion for it and then say okay, but you're no longer serving me, so what can I do? [00:25:00] And I find bringing humor into that helps too. And curiosity allows a space for humor because you can go, oh yeah, ha, I knew you were gonna show up because you always do this every time I go out, but I'm interrupting you this time and I'm gonna go down a different path.

[00:25:14] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And so I just find it such a. A an amazing space to exist in. And it's, it just really can help us to continually interrupt. And this is for, again, anybody in any behavior. Mm-hmm. You know, if you I was working with somebody who is struggling with an eating disorder, you know, overeat eating, emotional eating.

[00:25:35] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And I was like, you know, and that's lots of shame right around that. And I was like, stop being shameful. That behavior has a positive emotion. You know, I mean, it has a positive intention when you are, it's trying to make you feel better. It, it fulfills you. It makes you feel like you deserve something.

[00:25:49] Rose Ann Cerofeci: So be thank, you know, have a little gratitude for that. Find a little humor 'cause you knew it was gonna show up 'cause you were feeling bad that day. And then interrupt it and say, okay, [00:26:00] well what can I do instead? Or, what happened today that put me down this road and what can I do differently instead of going down a shame cycle and continuing it?

[00:26:10] Kathy Washburn: the idea I just wrote a piece on Substack about robots. Like robots can't be happy. And they can't be happy and they're very mechanical. Like when we're acting in that robotic way. And by that I mean unaware mm-hmm. That we're actually doing it.

[00:26:28] Kathy Washburn: Sometimes it's the fir that first step of like, oh yeah, I'm doing that thing again. And then when you invoke that curiosity of like, wow, is it serving me anymore? No, it doesn't serve me. I had such a hard time with wine alcohol during COVID, and at first it was at first it was okay because, you know, getting on FaceTimes with a bunch of people were having cocktail hours on FaceTime.

[00:26:56] Kathy Washburn: But I lived alone and it got to this [00:27:00] point where. I would come downstairs in the morning and there would be a bottle and a half of wine gone. And I'm looking at my puppy and I'm like, Bo, did you drink that half? Did I open a good bottle? But then it just, I couldn't stop it. It felt like I had no control over it.

[00:27:19] Kathy Washburn: And you know, I'm in that same neuro space as you are. And one of my friends was like, well, what is it serving? Like, what do you think the wine is doing? And I said, I think it's like my friend. Like it feels like, mm-hmm. It feels like I'm comfort. I'm comforted in this moment because that's, you know, I'd go out to dinner with friends, we'd gather, and there was always a glass of wine, which was fine, but now I wasn't stopping.

[00:27:48] Kathy Washburn: So this habit with a good intention maybe. Started to snowball, but then just as you said, it got into this shame cycle where I was like, I can't [00:28:00] tell people that I'm drinking a bottle of wine or a bottle and half of wine. Like, God, I can't say anything. And then one day I said it to a friend and she's like, geez, Kathy, we all are like, alcohol is considered uh, whatever.

[00:28:19] Kathy Washburn: Like, all the liquor stores stayed open because it was considered an essential service. She's like, there's a reason why alcohol is considered an essential service. But so the other piece of it was normalizing like, oh wait, okay, so not shaming, kind of normalizing it. And I can almost imagine your classroom.

[00:28:41] Kathy Washburn: Is it true you don't allow cell phones in your classroom? No devices at all. I'm like, no. Cell phones. No. We, I even went completely computer free because they were sitting on their computers and they're texting and you know, like, or they're watching a YouTube video. So I was like, okay, guys, devices out.

[00:28:59] Kathy Washburn: And [00:29:00] that was before Jonathan Het came on board and put this Bing Bowl you Yeah. And they did it. Now they do it in compliance. Right. Nobody's strong arming you. They're 18 year olds. 

[00:29:12] Rose Ann Cerofeci: You know, that's the thing is that the way that I approached it is I was like, Hey guys, this isn't a punishment. You know, like, you are here.

[00:29:19] Rose Ann Cerofeci: I, you know, I gave him the research. I said, you're really smart. Let's do the research on what the devices are doing to your attention, to your ability, to our sense of community. Here. Let's talk about it. And then I said, and if you still want. To have your device in the classroom for the two hours that we're together.

[00:29:35] Rose Ann Cerofeci: You know, it's such a short amount of time. It's like, I think you should just get curious about that. You know, like, let's get curious about why you need it to buy you for two hours. And so then it wasn't, instead of like, that softens it, we're like, instead of being, oh, I'm mad at her. She's like, oh, maybe I, why do I need it for two hours?

[00:29:53] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And then I let the decision be up to them. 

[00:29:56] Changing Classroom Dynamics

[00:29:56] Rose Ann Cerofeci: We talk a lot about the power of changing language. [00:30:00] And so I do a lot of like, look, you don't have to be here anymore. You're in college. You know, you get to come to this classroom. You get to share and learn and grow and knowledge.

[00:30:09] Rose Ann Cerofeci: This is a choice. So why would you take the time away from that lovely space and choice that you're making and, you know. Deny yourself this opportunity and you know, be on your phone or be on your computer. And they're all like, and I was like, Hey, and look, it's too tempting. I mean, I put my stuff away too, and I told them, I said, I'm more present.

[00:30:32] Rose Ann Cerofeci: I'm, you know, because before you put something like some group work or something, and I'm checking my, and I don't, you know, now I don't do it anymore. And I'm more present in the classroom. I'm more engaged with them. But, you know, just like, and I tell them that language with everything, like, if we can just stop feeling like things are a punishment, you know, I mean, curiosity takes that away too, right?

[00:30:51] Rose Ann Cerofeci: I remember when I was like that I don't have to go to the gym. I get to go to the gym. I'm an able-bodied person who is healthy and has the [00:31:00] means to have a gym membership. Like, you know, when you change the things that feel like that and start to look at them from a different perspective, then all of a sudden it becomes something, you know, just even like you change your perspective about the wine.

[00:31:13] Rose Ann Cerofeci: You're like, wait a minute, let me look at this differently. You know, we don't, instead of beating ourselves up because we stay down in that small space and we beat ourselves up instead of opening it up to having compassion for ourselves, understanding our, the positive intention 'cause understanding our behavior and then deciding if that's something that we want.

[00:31:33] Rose Ann Cerofeci: It's very empowering, right? Like, mm-hmm, do I wanna release this? And then, you know, there are tools because we're addicted to our phones, right? We're addicted, you know, even things like having your glass of wine, it becomes a habit. We do have to break those habits, which is a rewiring process, but this is where we start, right?

[00:31:52] Rose Ann Cerofeci: We have to change those belief systems around it. 

[00:31:56] The Impact of Smartphones on Social Interaction

[00:31:56] Kathy Washburn: So have you seen evidence of change in the classroom with your [00:32:00] students? 

[00:32:01] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Oh my gosh, a hundred percent. I mean, it's so funny because I actually by the end of last semester, like had a problem because they're talking too much. And I was like, you know, because, and they say, because you know, when they're doing group work or when they're together and it's a very interactive classroom, they're engaged and they're laughing and there's no, you know, I say before they used to use their masks as a social ma, you know, it's like a social mask.

[00:32:28] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Phones are a social mask too, in a way. When we feel awkward or uncomfortable you know, you look at just a group of kids, if they're sitting around, they're talking, and if all of a sudden it gets, there's an awkward silence. Even adults do it now too, right? You look at your phone. Whereas pre-phone, pre holding or having something, we were forced to sit.

[00:32:51] Rose Ann Cerofeci: That silence and then learn how to communicate, have a conversation, just be present. And we've [00:33:00] really stolen that from that opportunity, from, you know, and even now as adults, I think we steal it even when, I mean, I'm really trying to be intentional about not taking my phone out when I'm at a dinner table, not taking, because there is research that actually shows that even just having your phone on the table when you're having dinner with someone, it lessens the opportunity for vulnerability because they're afraid.

[00:33:24] Rose Ann Cerofeci: People are afraid to share because I might be interrupted at any moment. And then if somebody stops while you're sharing something and there's a buzz even, or they look at their phone, it's really taking away from that presence and holding that space. And so. You know, I it's been it's wonderful.

[00:33:44] Rose Ann Cerofeci: But I, it's funny, like I had to say, I think 'cause now they just, I feel like once they had the opportunity to open up, they're so grateful for it. Now, at the end of the semester, I had a survey and I was like, what'd you guys think? And they're all like, well, still like to have my phone, you know? 

[00:33:59] Kathy Washburn: [00:34:00] Yeah. 

[00:34:00] Rose Ann Cerofeci: But then I all said, but it was great and I didn't really miss it and I'm glad I did this.

[00:34:04] Rose Ann Cerofeci: So, you know, it's pretty awesome. 

[00:34:07] Kathy Washburn: It is pretty a awesome, and there's such a contagion effect to that. And you have this little microcosm, but the world is you know, it's scary. So what do we do? We kind of get back in these habitual patterns and we all know these. Smartphones are basically making us dumb because they just keep feeding us more of what we know, which lessens our curiosity.

[00:34:35] Kathy Washburn: We think we're being curious by going down some rabbit hole, but just like ai, which is just yessing us to death, we're just going down this old pattern. So disrupting these default patterns and getting curious. 

[00:34:52] Working with Parents and Older Individuals

[00:34:52] Kathy Washburn: Instead, I know you don't just work with students, you also work with parents, right?

[00:34:58] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:59] Kathy Washburn: So [00:35:00] there's this invitation to shift even as parents, right? instead of disconnecting from your children and getting on your phone, what, can you give us some concrete examples from your work with individuals? Older people. 

[00:35:17] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Older people? Yeah. Lot of the parents that I work with, come to me a lot of times too because they're struggling with their young adults, right.

[00:35:23] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Or their young adults not launching, or, and they're in that space where we feel such a heavy sense of responsibility to help and to fix, and it feels overwhelming and, you know, it's really helping them to understand you know, again, part of the surrender. But also I think that one of like the biggest opportunities with I think any adults, any kids, any, is really understanding

[00:35:51] Understanding and Shifting Belief Systems

[00:35:51] Rose Ann Cerofeci: That levels of change come from if I'm experiencing something that I'm not liking or that I'm not happy with, or that I'm [00:36:00] struggling with, then rather than keep looking outside, it's the ability to turn it inside and say, okay, what are my belief systems around this?

[00:36:12] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Because the truth is, if you wanna know what somebody believes, all you have to do is look at what they're experiencing. So when I'm working with somebody and they're, I'm talking about like, what are you experiencing? Then let's back that up into what your belief systems are, and then your belief systems drive your behaviors, right?

[00:36:33] Rose Ann Cerofeci: So if you have a belief system you know that. I don't know. My kid's not gonna be happy unless he has a college degree. Well, that's maybe a false belief system, right? So you're experiencing all of this frustration and fear and all of this stuff around making sure that this kid is successful or that they launch, and then at the same time you're like, well, maybe instead of [00:37:00] looking at what's going on out here, what, where does that belief system come?

[00:37:03] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And maybe is that belief system not true? You know, like is that a faulty belief system? And honestly, you can do this with. Everything. So like, you know, I look at, you know, you look at friends who end up constantly in relationships with somebody who isn't treating them well, right? And you go, okay, well what is your belief system around what you feel like you deserve in a relationship?

[00:37:32] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And they may rationally say no. I know that I want this, and this, but that's not, that's what you are trying to convince yourself of. But if your true beliefs, like what do you truly believe about what you deserve, about your relationships, about your life? And so always it, it does. It's very empowering, right?

[00:37:52] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Because instead of being a victim of your circumstances, you have the power to adjust. [00:38:00] Honestly changing your belief system. I mean, that's exactly what I had to do with what was going on in my world, is I had to say, wait a minute, I'm not able to fix or change or create these outcomes, but why do I, number one, believe I can?

[00:38:18] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And number two, why do I believe that's the right way? And that's a big shift, but that's where the real unconditional love is able to come in too, because I stopped putting the judgment on it, right? So I'm like, oh, maybe I have a faulty belief system there about this, about what I deserve, about what their life should look like, about what my life is supposed to look like.

[00:38:43] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And obviously those belief systems are so, you know, they're patterns that are established oftentimes in the first three years of our lives. So they're very deeply rooted and you know, we're not able to. To see the other, to [00:39:00] even see that there's another option. A lot of times I think that's what, you know, that's where people become hopeless, right?

[00:39:04] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Like, oh, well I don't I can't even see that there might be something else, or there might be a different side to this. And so my belief systems, I'm so deeply rooted in this that I can't even see it. And so I'm not even capable of seeing that my belief system might be faulty then my experience is I'm, I'm getting back what I put out there, so I'm going to, of course I'm gonna experience this if this is what I believe I should be experiencing.

[00:39:29] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Like that's why our world's in a crisis right now, right? Everybody, because everybody's in these corners and they're not able to even recognize that they're in this, you know, in this echo chamber of their belief systems. And so they're, our own beliefs are constantly being reinforced, and so we're never able to look outside and see another perspective.

[00:39:51] Kathy Washburn: Within ourselves and outside of ourselves. Yeah. It's so debilitating when we [00:40:00] get stuck in these ruts and these patterning, and I hear it with cl when I work with clients. It comes out mostly because people can't originally articulate that, but they'll say, I feel stuck, or mm-hmm. One client said it, she's like, you know, I just feel muted.

[00:40:21] Kathy Washburn: Like I 

[00:40:22] Rose Ann Cerofeci: mm-hmm. 

[00:40:23] Kathy Washburn: Not muted as in silenced. I feel like a matte finish versus a glossy finish. I just feel kind of tempered and I'm not sure why. One of the biggest things I do with clients, or the first thing I do with them is identify what their values are. And it's so fascinating to me. 'cause my.

[00:40:47] Kathy Washburn: I work with women between, I have clients from 20 in their twenties to 80, but my sweet spot is around my age, in their fifties and will do this values [00:41:00] work. And it's astonishing to me. And I'm so grateful for the work. 'cause sometimes it's the first time these humans have actually identified what their values are and clarified.

[00:41:17] Kathy Washburn: We go through this whole process of like, oh wait, those aren't my values. That's because that's what my mother wanted me to be, or that's what my husband wants me to be. Or that's how I am at work, but I'm not in my personal life. And to like keep chinking it down to, oh wait, my personal value is. To be connected.

[00:41:40] Kathy Washburn: And nothing I'm doing in my life right now is connecting. It's all disconnecting, whether it's this or, so, it's a way into that kind of behind the beliefs of the values. Like, what do I value? Because whatever I value is [00:42:00] where my attention is going. And if my attention is going, just like the behavior is going on, something that is not generative and in fact the opposite, it's disconnecting.

[00:42:15] Kathy Washburn: It's not loving unconditionally. It's, you know, making people's souls run back into the forest. 

[00:42:23] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Mm-hmm. 

[00:42:23] Kathy Washburn: But that awareness is such a key piece. It's like. I hate to use the word woke because it has so many connotations, but it is this moment of waking up and from there you help people. I help people to shift into some advocacy, some self-advocacy, and I'm wondering how curiosity becomes not just a tool for understanding ourselves, but actually as a way to stand up for ourselves, like to begin [00:43:00] advocating for ourselves in old spaces or existing relationships.

[00:43:06] Rose Ann Cerofeci: I love that. I think that, you know what Curiosity does, exactly what you're saying is to say like, okay, if I'm looking at these values and then I'm curious about where they came from, and I have this awareness now, but then instead of feeling, you know, embarra bad about them, you go, okay. Let me Thank you.

[00:43:27] Rose Ann Cerofeci: You've served me well. You know, like I said before, I'm like being a fixer. I was awesome. You know, I can really have a lot of gratitude for that. So then, you know, really understanding and giving, you know, grace and compassion and gratitude to those, to that old, to those old ways, gently releasing them, you're no longer serving me.

[00:43:51] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And then it really, once you start to change your beliefs, it's really a shift. 

[00:43:57] The Power of Identity Shifts

[00:43:58] Rose Ann Cerofeci: It has to be a shift on an, an [00:44:00] identity level. And that's when you start to self-advocate. Like, for example, I have a I have a, I had a client who is well, and actually a colleague of mine, right? So she's a professor or teacher.

[00:44:13] Rose Ann Cerofeci: She said, do you know she wanted to write a book, wants to write a book. And can never get it going right. Never could get it going. And because she said, you know, I because I'm a teacher, you know, I have so much to do. I'm craver's a grade, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Your identity is really wrapped up in this being this teacher.

[00:44:31] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And then we talked about, well, what if we, what's your belief system around that? I'm not getting paid. You know, I get paid for this. I'm not getting paid for the ri, you know, all the belief systems around that, right. So, okay, let's, you know, just because you're not getting paid to be a writer yet, let's shift the belief system.

[00:44:49] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Let's shift the, that. That's still valuable, that it's what you're supposed to be doing, that it's a calling. And what if we're saying, okay, don't, I'm no longer my identity shifts [00:45:00] to, I'm no longer a teacher who writes, but I'm a writer who teaches. 

[00:45:05] Kathy Washburn: Mm-hmm. So subtle. 

[00:45:08] Rose Ann Cerofeci: When you make that identity shift, the entire world around you changes, right?

[00:45:16] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Because if I am now identifying as a writer who teaches as a way to like, you know, pay my bills instead of a teacher who doesn't have time to write, because I've gotta do this job because I have a belief system that this is what I'm getting paid for. So it's more valuable or it's more, it's what I need to do.

[00:45:34] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And it doesn't mean that you're slacking off as being a teacher at all. You know, you're still doing your job with, you know, integrity and all of the things, but as a writer, then all of a sudden you've given yourself permission to prioritize your writing, to make space and time for that to allow yourself to walk into that identity and carry yourself to do research online without being like, oh, I really should be [00:46:00] grading papers now.

[00:46:00] Rose Ann Cerofeci: No, I have space for that later on. But just that. Reprioritizing or that change of identity. And I'll tell you what, I see it in my students too, and it's such a beautiful thing when it happens. When they all of a sudden I see an identity shift in them sometimes from I'm, you know, I'm a, oh, I'm a student who has to go to school to, oh, I'm a scholar.

[00:46:27] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And then you start behaving like a scholar, right? You start doing your homework because it's something that you wanna do because it's your identity. Now. You start doing your homework, you start reading more, you start doing stuff outside class because you're not doing it for the process. And 'cause I have you for a grade, you're doing it because I'm a scholar in the same way that now I'm writing, I'm a writer.

[00:46:46] Rose Ann Cerofeci: So if we can become, that's how we start to advocate for ourselves, right? Like, I am not just like, okay, I'm a this who is also a mom who is also a, you know, again, it's not that you're putting in the same way that surrendering is not giving up. It's not. [00:47:00] It's just allowing yourself to have the space to walk into the identity that is serving you, that actually then turns around and serves, gives back.

[00:47:11] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Right. Because now I'm happier or I'm more fulfilled. I am more I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm accomplishing more. I'm, I just, you know, you're better all the way around. 'cause you've were able to make that identity shift. 

[00:47:23] Kathy Washburn: It just reminds me of how powerful that I am. Statement is. It's like we're all just one sentence away from being a new version of ourselves.

[00:47:31] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Right. Instead, 

[00:47:33] Kathy Washburn: I know you and I both probably remember, who was it? Like Dana Carvey in the Saturday Night Live skit where he would, he was like the church lady or something and he would here. Yeah. And that was like in the eighties and he would do his little I am statements. It's so true. We can become a different version of ourselves.

[00:47:55] Kathy Washburn: We're just one sentence away. So you have, yeah. [00:48:00] You have such a beautiful what's the essence of this being a mom, being a teacher? Having lived through this? Wow. It is not my job. I thought it was my job. Like reframing your whole identity. That's a lot of the people I work with, people that have this, these type C behavioral patterns where they feel like people pleasing and resisting conflict is a way to be liked and to keep the peace and, mm-hmm to quiet.

[00:48:35] Kathy Washburn: But there's always this. You are sitting right in the middle of it this place of like, wait where do I separate and where does somebody else begin? If I am slipping out of that fix it mode, how can I hold space for someone else's journey so that I can actually invest in my own? [00:49:00] It's really hard to 

[00:49:02] Rose Ann Cerofeci: mm-hmm.

[00:49:02] Kathy Washburn: Decouple that parent. Especially if parenting is your job. Like you've may, you've dedicated your life, you're maybe a full-time mom, a CEO of your house. And saying that fixing it is not my problem. It's like, actually I'm answering my own question. By what you've just said, it's like, it's gaining a new identity, right.

[00:49:28] Kathy Washburn: It's, 

[00:49:28] Rose Ann Cerofeci: and shifting that, yeah. And shifting that belief system. I mean, let me tell you what I learned very, in a very difficult way, that unsolicited advice sounds like criticism. 

[00:49:40] Kathy Washburn: Yeah. 

[00:49:42] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Right? So when we're walking around telling everybody else what they should be doing or how they should be doing it, they're not receiving it from a space of love.

[00:49:51] Rose Ann Cerofeci: You just are, that's all it does is sound like criticism. And so, and then the wall, like, then there's no space for you to [00:50:00] help because the minute you're criticizing me, I don't want your help, mom. It's changing the belief that I'm doing more, like, it's again, like the worrying, the belief system that, well, I need to worry because at least by worrying, that's showing that I love them, but actually all I'm doing is adding you know, being critical, adding negative energy to that space.

[00:50:21] Rose Ann Cerofeci: So if I could step out of it and learn to be a place from compassion and just hold love. I'll tell you what, I had to do this for a long time and I had these like little tricks that I would practice, like when I felt myself like when my, like if my kid was doing, like my son was doing something and it was really bothering me and I wanted to help him, or I wanted something and I could feel it in my body and I could feel the energy.

[00:50:48] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And so I learned to just interrupt, you know, that thought. And I would just say in my head. I wouldn't even say it out loud. I love you and I'm here for you. I love you, and I'm here for you. I love you, and I'm [00:51:00] here for you. So that instead of trying to fix it, I was just, I just, I love you and I'm here for you.

[00:51:05] Rose Ann Cerofeci: I'm, you know, so that, and then you can feel the whole energy shift, right? And then he's able to come to me, because if I'm criticizing, then I'm putting up, you know, like you said, he's running into the woods, right? Mm-hmm. So love you and I'm here for you. I would say that on my head. And then I would create an energetic space of love, which this was really funny, but it was like, it was so powerful and it worked.

[00:51:30] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And it works even with people, with anybody in your life that you're like, okay, this person's gonna come into the room and I know I'm gonna struggle. I'm gonna, you know, I would just sit and. Imagine, especially with like my son, I would imagine him when he was a baby or when he was a toddler. And you know, when you just look at them and there's just so much unconditional, like overflowing love, and then that is the energy that I would bring into the [00:52:00] adult space with him.

[00:52:02] Rose Ann Cerofeci: and it was real like, I mean, it's a real, like, I would just, so before I was gonna see him, I'd be like, I love you and I'm here for you. And like, I just smile. Like I have even a picture of him that I like his face and he's so cute. And I was like, oh my God, I love him so much. And then I would just sit with that, you know, sometimes stinky adult boy, you know, and stinky because he's, it was a boy, you know, and I'd be like, oh my God, I just love everything about you.

[00:52:29] Rose Ann Cerofeci: You know, like, you're just like, that's the unconditional love. Like, right. Like, boy, I'm glad you're, is to think about like, like, like when you're coming from a nonjudgmental space, it's like, oh, his socks are dirty. Well, isn't that great that he got up today and was able to put on socks, you know, and that he doesn't care that the world thinks they're smelly.

[00:52:47] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Like, if I can come from that perspective, you know, then all of a sudden I'm like, oh, I love him. This, and you know what? We do it with our friends, right? Like if another, I [00:53:00] always think that too, like this is also having compassion for yourself and being curious if your friend, like when you came to your friend and said, I drank a bottle and a half of wine.

[00:53:08] Rose Ann Cerofeci: She said, well, of course you did. We all are you know, it's like you would not have been, you're so, we're so judgmental and hard on ourselves, and oftentimes the people we love the most, that if we could step outside and be that friend and say like, well, like when my son's friend shows up at the house and he's got sneaky socks, I giggle.

[00:53:28] Kathy Washburn: Yeah. 

[00:53:28] Rose Ann Cerofeci: But all of a sudden I feel like I have to, like, oh, I'm the one who, oh my God, that's a reflection. It's not a reflection of me. Like I giggle. All 19-year-old boys have stinky socks. You know, like if I est like all 50-year-old women, were drinking a bottle of wine during COVID. We don't want it. We don't want them to continue their life wearing stinky socks.

[00:53:46] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And I promise I won't, but, and we don't wanna continue drinking a bottle of, you know, of wine at night, but we need to have some compassion and understanding in order to let it go. 

[00:53:55] Kathy Washburn: Yeah. It happens just like that. It happens inside and [00:54:00] then it can happen outside of us. But the each person that's listening to this and that does one small thing to change, it changes everything they touch.

[00:54:12] Kathy Washburn: It's so Resonant, you know, or reverberating. It's so powerful. Thank you for the work that you do. I can't even imagine teaching our youth in this day and age. And I read the article about you where you changed the classroom and how contagious that's even been within the school district.

[00:54:35] Kathy Washburn: So thank you for standing up and putting action behind frustration. That's how the world changes and we need this right now in our world. Just one healed human at a time. 

[00:54:51] Rose Ann Cerofeci: A hundred percent. And you know, right back at you because you know, and the work that you're doing is so amazing. I think that as women we're just so hard on [00:55:00] ourselves, we're, we 

[00:55:01] Kathy Washburn: are, we're 

[00:55:01] Rose Ann Cerofeci: so, you know, we just expect that we're supposed to be working these miracles and.

[00:55:09] Rose Ann Cerofeci: We are working miracles, by the way,

[00:55:11] Kathy Washburn: by the way. Well, yeah. And to your point, the people, the fixer people the people pleaser the big heart, empaths. When we do come from that place, from the inside out, it is magnificently powerful. And your proof to that, like once, once you change that belief system, like just think of the amount of people that you've touched with that new reframing of curiosity.

[00:55:42] Kathy Washburn: Like how that change is just so magnificent. It's just, I don't know. I think we dumb ourselves down. There's so much power in these women, 

[00:55:54] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Ripple effect is real for sure. 

[00:55:56] Kathy Washburn: Ripple effect is real. That's gonna be a t-shirt. [00:56:00] I like that one. If I were to crush you up and put you in pill form, what effect would you have on someone taking that pill?

[00:56:10] Rose Ann Cerofeci: I think, you know, that they would be flooded with like self-compassion, you know, just flooded with it and just, ugh, all that releasing of that shame and all of those things. And just all kinds of self-compassion with though, you know, a little, you know, a little hint of humor in there. Like, you gotta laugh at yourself, you know, have a hint of humor.

[00:56:36] Rose Ann Cerofeci: And then, you know, I think with an after effect of a lot of gratitude, I mean, I know that's so cliche, but I feel like gratitude is such a, when you can, it brings you, like you were talking about earlier, it brings you back to the present. It allows you to just sit in that space where all of that, where the compassion can just, [00:57:00] you know, like be and hug you and love you and all that light.

[00:57:03] Rose Ann Cerofeci: So that would be a gift I would want to give to every, you know, especially women, you know, every woman who can, you know, just, Hey, you're doing amazing. Have a little bit of compassion, little bit of humor and then just let's get back to it. 

[00:57:22] Kathy Washburn: Yeah. Even stinky socks can be gratitude. 

[00:57:26] Rose Ann Cerofeci: They can, 

[00:57:28] Kathy Washburn: and actually when you were saying that about, when you shifted and you said, I just love, I, how did you say it in your head with your son?

[00:57:36] Rose Ann Cerofeci: I love you and I'm here for you. Is 

[00:57:38] Kathy Washburn: that, I love when, as soon as you said that, like I could feel that shift. That is energy in motion right there. That ability to affect another human's, another human being by just how we are in our own body. 

[00:57:56] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:57] Kathy Washburn: What a beautiful gift for your son.

[00:57:59] Rose Ann Cerofeci: [00:58:00] Well, he's taught me a lot. I always, I tell him all the time now, like, he's so good now. I tell him all the time. I say, I am so grateful for you because I know that you chose me and that. You came here to teach me the lessons, and I'm sorry it took so long because I made your life harder because you were like, Nope, I'm not gonna give up on her.

[00:58:24] Rose Ann Cerofeci: I'm gonna help her figure it out. You know? And so then when I figure it out, we can both like breathe a little bit easier. Wow. That's love and action right there. Being able to stand by somebody, even through those difficult times to help them move beyond it. 

[00:58:42] Final Thoughts and Upcoming Projects

[00:58:42] Kathy Washburn: Thank you so much, Roseanne, for your gift of time.

[00:58:45] Kathy Washburn: This has been really a powerful discussion. 

[00:58:49] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Thank you. 

[00:58:51] Kathy Washburn: Do you have a book coming out? Is that right? 

[00:58:53] Rose Ann Cerofeci: I'm working on one. Good. We'll see when it can come out, but I am working on one. Just get curious. [00:59:00] So I am, hopefully, I'm trying to, I'm trying to organize all these thoughts and get them out there, so 

[00:59:05] Kathy Washburn: Yeah, it'll happen and we'll be looking for you and supporting you the whole way.

[00:59:10] Rose Ann Cerofeci: Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. 

[00:59:12] Kathy Washburn: Yes, you be well, 

[00:59:13]

[00:59:54] ​