Ep 79 - Capacity vs. Capability: The Equation That Changes Everything with Emily Forbes

Emily Forbes spent nine years as a CEO, winning awards and passing every performance review, while her body was quietly falling apart. In this conversation, Emily shares the equation she developed after ill-health retirement forced her to separate two things most of us have never been taught to tell apart: capability and capacity.

We talk about the moment capability stopped being enough to override what her body was saying, the crash protocol she now uses on low-capacity days, and why interoception and simple breathing techniques matter more than willpower ever did. Emily is the author of Too Hard to Swallow and founder of Wylde Wellbeing, where she coaches high-achieving women rebuilding their lives after a diagnosis, illness, or major transition.

This episode speaks directly to the Type C pattern of pushing through, staying capable on the outside while running on empty underneath, and offers a gentler, more honest way forward.

Key Topics Covered

●       The capacity equation: resource + recovery + regulation + support, minus demands and stress load

●       Why capability isn't in the equation at all, and what that reveals about how we're praised

●       Emily's crash protocol and the language of noticing versus labeling

●       Interoception, body scans, and the parasympathetic sigh breathing technique

●       Awareness before agency, and reclaiming choice after years of "capability override"

●       Too Hard to Swallow: part memoir, part self-help, and the wellness plan template inside it

View extended shownotes here

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Transcript

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 Ep 79 - Capacity vs. Capability: The Equation That Changes Everything with Emily Forbes

[00:00:00] Capability vs Capacity

[00:00:00] Speaker: Hello, friends. Here's a question I would love for you to ponder today. What happens when your capability outruns your capacity? 

[00:00:14] Speaker: Today I'm talking with Emily Forbes. She is the founder of Wyld Wellbeing, and she's about to introduce you to two words you think you already know really well, capability and capacity.

[00:00:30] Speaker: Emily spent nine years as a CEO, capable by every single measure the world uses to measure someone, and she's gonna tell you exactly why that word capable was never actually the whole story

[00:00:46] Speaker: One of the many things that happened during this conversation was first of all her questioning what if you could be fully capable and still be [00:01:00] completely out of capacity? That's the first one that rattled me because I've been in that position many a times. The other quote, "My capability often writes checks that my capacity can't cash."

[00:01:17] Speaker: Emily walks us through her crash protocol, the practice of interoception, and a breath that can calm a nervous system in seconds. This is knowledge born from lived experience and is exactly the kind of embodied wisdom that this show exists to hold space for. This is Emily Forbes. May it be of benefit

[00:01:46]

[00:02:33] Meet Emily Forbes

[00:02:33] Kathy Washburn: Emily Forbes, I am so 

[00:02:36] Kathy Washburn: delighted to be here with you. I found your work 

[00:02:39] Kathy Washburn: on Substack, which is 

[00:02:42] Kathy Washburn: a new, a fairly new, I've been there for a little over a year, but a delightful 

[00:02:47] Kathy Washburn: platform, and I... 

[00:02:49] Kathy Washburn: Every single human I've met 

[00:02:51] Kathy Washburn: there 

[00:02:51] Kathy Washburn: I don't know, it, it seems to be a new place for creators to really, 

[00:02:58] Kathy Washburn: Share 

[00:02:58] Kathy Washburn: their work and [00:03:00] share each other.

[00:03:00] Kathy Washburn: So I'm glad to have met you there. 

[00:03:03] Kathy Washburn: I in- 

[00:03:03] Kathy Washburn: I'm going to allow you to 

[00:03:06] Kathy Washburn: yourself 

[00:03:07] Kathy Washburn: who you serve, who you 

[00:03:08] Kathy Washburn: are. 

[00:03:09] Kathy Washburn: We'll dive into this, but is there something specific you want people to know? We'll have your link to your links in the show notes for everybody as well 

[00:03:17] Emily Forbes: Happy, yeah. And lovely 

[00:03:19] Emily Forbes: to meet you, too.

[00:03:20] Emily Forbes: Substack's definitely been a really glorious platform for connecting 

[00:03:26] Emily Forbes: with other sort of like-minded women and growing together 

[00:03:29] Emily Forbes: and learning together, and yeah, I love it on there, too. 

[00:03:32] Emily Forbes: So happy to be here. I'm Emily Forbes, Forbes, and I'm an integrative 

[00:03:37] Emily Forbes: coach for women, and I 

[00:03:39] Emily Forbes: work with women who 

[00:03:41] Emily Forbes: are high-achieving in, you know, 

[00:03:44] Emily Forbes: leadership roles or family roles or 

[00:03:46] Emily Forbes: whatever it might be, and they've had 

[00:03:48] Emily Forbes: to rebuild their 

[00:03:50] Emily Forbes: lives after a big 

[00:03:52] Emily Forbes: change or transition or a diagnosis or illness, and really 

[00:03:57] Emily Forbes: are 

[00:03:57] Emily Forbes: looking for clarity [00:04:00] in navigating their steps 

[00:04:02] Emily Forbes: forward.

[00:04:02] Emily Forbes: Hmm.

[00:04:03] Kathy Washburn: Your 

[00:04:03] Kathy Washburn: work on Substack is so, 

[00:04:06] Kathy Washburn: indicative of 

[00:04:07] Kathy Washburn: somebody that's already walked this path themselves. when I reached 

[00:04:11] Kathy Washburn: out, your stuff resonated so deeply. I think we, we play in the same circles. 

[00:04:17] Kathy Washburn: And

[00:04:18] Kathy Washburn: I've highlighted the group of people that I work with 

[00:04:22] Kathy Washburn: as 

[00:04:22] Kathy Washburn: type C. I don't know if you've heard that referenced before, but it seems like we kind of 

[00:04:28] Kathy Washburn: talk 

[00:04:29] Kathy Washburn: to the same people but in a different voice, and the one that you use really just hit 

[00:04:36] Kathy Washburn: my heart.

[00:04:37] The Distinction Crystallizes

[00:04:37] Kathy Washburn: this idea of being in that 

[00:04:39] Kathy Washburn: role and 

[00:04:41] Kathy Washburn: getting burnt out because no one, including ourselves, 

[00:04:46] Kathy Washburn: questions 

[00:04:48] Kathy Washburn: whether or not we can handle things. And you had this stunning distinction between capability 

[00:04:57] Kathy Washburn: and capacity [00:05:00] that just, like, 

[00:05:01] Kathy Washburn: blew, blew 

[00:05:02] Kathy Washburn: my mind, and I'm really curious 

[00:05:05] Kathy Washburn: when or how did that crystallize for you?

[00:05:09] Kathy Washburn: Like when was that distinction made?

[00:05:11] Emily Forbes: The first time I probably made that distinction is when I actually wrote 

[00:05:15] Emily Forbes: it down in words. 

[00:05:16] Emily Forbes: I was emailing one of the politicians at the local council that I 

[00:05:20] Emily Forbes: worked at, and I was trying to 

[00:05:24] Emily Forbes: get them to understand that even though I was highly capable, 

[00:05:29] Emily Forbes: I was 

[00:05:29] Emily Forbes: performing really well 

[00:05:31] Emily Forbes: as the CEO of the council, I was there for nine years, 

[00:05:34] Emily Forbes: Never had a problem with my appraisals, my performance, departmental growth, anything.

[00:05:40] Emily Forbes: But capacity-wise, I didn't have the physical resources to be able to give my all without giving 

[00:05:48] Emily Forbes: my health 

[00:05:48] Emily Forbes: anymore. 

[00:05:50] Emily Forbes: And I 

[00:05:50] Emily Forbes: trying to almost tell someone that couldn't possibly understand there was a problem because they weren't seeing 

[00:05:58] Emily Forbes: the problem. 

[00:05:59] Emily Forbes: were [00:06:00] seeing 

[00:06:00] Emily Forbes: the output. 

[00:06:01] Emily Forbes: They saw some of the issues, obviously.

[00:06:03] Emily Forbes: I 

[00:06:03] Emily Forbes: was... I had a couple of surgeries, I was off work, I'd had some sickness absence. 

[00:06:08] Emily Forbes: But I'd come 

[00:06:09] Emily Forbes: back, 

[00:06:10] Emily Forbes: and I'd come back with the same 

[00:06:12] Emily Forbes: sort of passion and excitement and vigor 

[00:06:16] Emily Forbes: and hope and 

[00:06:17] Emily Forbes: Strategic 

[00:06:18] Emily Forbes: visioning 

[00:06:18] Emily Forbes: that I always had. And 

[00:06:21] Emily Forbes: it was almost 

[00:06:22] Emily Forbes: like I came back trying 

[00:06:24] Emily Forbes: to run the same ge- run the same race, but my capacity had hugely changed after the second operation that I'd had, some s- the second surgery.

[00:06:36] Emily Forbes: And 

[00:06:37] Emily Forbes: it was almost like how do I find the words and the 

[00:06:40] Emily Forbes: language 

[00:06:41] Emily Forbes: to describe this to 

[00:06:42] Emily Forbes: someone 

[00:06:44] Emily Forbes: when on the cover you look fine and your 

[00:06:48] Emily Forbes: output is 

[00:06:49] Emily Forbes: fine, and, there's no mistakes 

[00:06:52] Emily Forbes: or errors or problems, 

[00:06:54] Emily Forbes: but on the 

[00:06:55] Emily Forbes: inside 

[00:06:56] Emily Forbes: you're giving your 

[00:06:57] Emily Forbes: absolute 

[00:06:58] Emily Forbes: full [00:07:00] all, your life, 

[00:07:01] Emily Forbes: your health, 

[00:07:01] Emily Forbes: your wellbeing 

[00:07:03] Emily Forbes: to that?

[00:07:04] Emily Forbes: And that's 

[00:07:05] Emily Forbes: when I first wrote those 

[00:07:07] Emily Forbes: words 

[00:07:07] Emily Forbes: down, and that's when I think I first started getting this idea 

[00:07:10] Emily Forbes: about capability 

[00:07:13] Emily Forbes: not being the same 

[00:07:14] Emily Forbes: as capacity, and how 

[00:07:16] Emily Forbes: we've never been taught 

[00:07:17] Emily Forbes: that. We've never really had that distinction. 

[00:07:21] Emily Forbes: How we talk in like a work environment and leadership 

[00:07:24] Emily Forbes: realms about 

[00:07:25] Emily Forbes: performance capability, and, "Oh, well, that's a capability issues."

[00:07:30] Emily Forbes: what we're talking about knowledge and skills 

[00:07:32] Emily Forbes: and 

[00:07:34] Emily Forbes: information 

[00:07:35] Emily Forbes: and 

[00:07:35] Emily Forbes: understanding, and I still have all of those. I don't 

[00:07:38] Emily Forbes: have 

[00:07:40] Emily Forbes: is physical energy, resources, capacity to be able 

[00:07:44] Emily Forbes: to give to that capability. 

[00:07:47] Emily Forbes: And yeah, so that's, I think that's when I first, a couple of years ago, first started writing those words down, and 

[00:07:53] Emily Forbes: how 

[00:07:53] Emily Forbes: now I've developed those into a sustainable capacity equation and a sort of coaching [00:08:00] protocol I can help women with 

[00:08:03] Emily Forbes: essentially.

[00:08:04] Vulnerable Email Fallout

[00:08:04] Kathy Washburn: And we're gonna dive 

[00:08:05] Kathy Washburn: into that a little bit. I'm really curious to 

[00:08:08] Kathy Washburn: hear how that interaction was received

[00:08:13] Emily Forbes: Well, First, probably shocked- 

[00:08:16] Emily Forbes: ... 

[00:08:16] Emily Forbes: in some ways

[00:08:18] Emily Forbes: Maybe not completely shocked, as in knew something 

[00:08:21] Emily Forbes: was coming because obviously, as I said I had 

[00:08:24] Emily Forbes: a lot of 

[00:08:24] Emily Forbes: physical health changes. But I think that email that I sent was 

[00:08:28] Emily Forbes: probably the most vulnerable, honest almost 

[00:08:33] Emily Forbes: ask for help that I'd ever 

[00:08:34] Emily Forbes: really written 

[00:08:35] Emily Forbes: down myself.

[00:08:37] Emily Forbes: I'd always been that, carrier of everything and the strong one and the fixer and and the glue, and nothing was a problem. 

[00:08:44] Emily Forbes: And it was almost probably, "Well, who is this 

[00:08:47] Emily Forbes: person now emailing me and saying, 'Actually, this is taking, too much of me. This is... My health has deteriorated so much that 

[00:08:58] Emily Forbes: I don't think I can physically do this [00:09:00] anymore.'"

[00:09:00] Emily Forbes: So I think there was some 

[00:09:01] Emily Forbes: shock there, as well as, 

[00:09:03] Emily Forbes: Compassion- 

[00:09:04] Emily Forbes: ... and 

[00:09:05] Emily Forbes: probably some sadness because, I was a young 

[00:09:10] Emily Forbes: CEO. 

[00:09:10] Emily Forbes: I 

[00:09:10] Emily Forbes: was top of my game. I was high achieving. I, 

[00:09:14] Emily Forbes: Winning awards for our local community and 

[00:09:16] Emily Forbes: council, and had 

[00:09:20] Emily Forbes: much more I wanted to do, 

[00:09:21] Emily Forbes: and I had to cut that career short because of my health.

[00:09:25] Emily Forbes: So I 

[00:09:27] Emily Forbes: think there was probably, yeah, some sort of sadness in there too really. 

[00:09:33] Kathy Washburn: We're more alike than I 

[00:09:35] Kathy Washburn: even 

[00:09:35] Kathy Washburn: we... than I even thought we were. I kinda 

[00:09:37] Kathy Washburn: did the same thing stepping away, but I did it in an email as you did. And for me, partly because I can articulate myself in writing much clearer or or I feel safer in writing than in the presence of because, I don't know, I [00:10:00] think I have this spidey sense sometimes where I'm over-sensing somebody else's response and then I...

[00:10:07] Kathy Washburn: that will kick me back into these old ways of type C behaviors and even override what it is I'm trying to say. So to get it all out in an email, 

[00:10:18] Kathy Washburn: Felt, to me at the time when I was stepping away after 25 years at a company that I helped build, but I felt relieved and then a little bit like, "Well, that was a little shady."

[00:10:34] Kathy Washburn: I probably should have done that in person, 

[00:10:37] Kathy Washburn: And 

[00:10:38] Kathy Washburn: not 

[00:10:39] Kathy Washburn: emailed it. I mean, in hindsight as I look back, it was the only way that could have 

[00:10:43] Kathy Washburn: happened. 

[00:10:44] When the Body Says Stop

[00:10:44] Kathy Washburn: But I'm wondering when you got to this point where you felt, okay, 

[00:10:49] Kathy Washburn: and

[00:10:50] Kathy Washburn: it sounds like y- you- As far as high 

[00:10:52] Kathy Washburn: achieving, you were there. You 

[00:10:54] Kathy Washburn: were and everybody 

[00:10:55] Kathy Washburn: else's view, you 

[00:10:56] Kathy Washburn: had it all.

[00:10:57] Kathy Washburn: You had... 

[00:10:58] Kathy Washburn: You were doing it. [00:11:00] And at the same time, that capability, 

[00:11:05] Kathy Washburn: Stopped being enough to o-override the capacity, what that was. Wow. So

[00:11:12] Kathy Washburn: What was the shift? What happened there? 

[00:11:15] Kathy Washburn: Was it a 

[00:11:16] Kathy Washburn: walking away from?

[00:11:18] Emily Forbes: if I'd allowed it, I think my capability would've still been 

[00:11:23] Emily Forbes: overriding it. 

[00:11:24] Emily Forbes: Which is interesting 

[00:11:25] Emily Forbes: because 

[00:11:26] Emily Forbes: it's almost 

[00:11:27] Emily Forbes: like 

[00:11:28] Emily Forbes: it proves it's not a willpower 

[00:11:30] Emily Forbes: issue because- Ah ... I had, 

[00:11:32] Emily Forbes: all of the will, wanted 

[00:11:33] Emily Forbes: to keep going. 

[00:11:35] Emily Forbes: So I'd made some 

[00:11:36] Emily Forbes: adjustments to my working arrangements.

[00:11:40] Emily Forbes: I'd reduced my hours in the office 

[00:11:42] Emily Forbes: and was working from home a 

[00:11:43] Emily Forbes: lot to try and conserve energy. 

[00:11:46] Emily Forbes: I was 

[00:11:46] Emily Forbes: sleeping nearly all 

[00:11:47] Emily Forbes: weekend trying to build my 

[00:11:49] Emily Forbes: energy reserves 

[00:11:50] Emily Forbes: back up. 

[00:11:51] Emily Forbes: And I think when it kind of, when I kind of not- when I had to do that 

[00:11:55] Emily Forbes: stop, that hard stop, 

[00:11:57] Emily Forbes: it was because I was [00:12:00] getting in the 

[00:12:00] Emily Forbes: car and driving to work, and 

[00:12:02] Emily Forbes: even lugging like big law 

[00:12:04] Emily Forbes: books down the steps into the office to my desk.

[00:12:07] Emily Forbes: Before I'd even 

[00:12:08] Emily Forbes: started the day, like physically I had nothing left in the tank already. Oof. 

[00:12:13] Emily Forbes: And then I was trying to work out, I'm on, I live on liquid food and a liquid 

[00:12:17] Emily Forbes: diet, 

[00:12:17] Emily Forbes: and I was trying to work out how I could take these supplements and shakes to work and, in between these back-to-back meetings, how 

[00:12:25] Emily Forbes: I'd manage to refill up my energy and nourish 

[00:12:28] Emily Forbes: myself.

[00:12:29] Emily Forbes: And along with my conditions, 

[00:12:32] Emily Forbes: I get a 

[00:12:32] Emily Forbes: lot of 

[00:12:32] Emily Forbes: trapped air in my esophagus as well 

[00:12:35] Emily Forbes: as not being able to swallow, and it was 

[00:12:38] Emily Forbes: happening all the time. And it 

[00:12:39] Emily Forbes: was just becoming 

[00:12:40] Emily Forbes: this 

[00:12:41] Emily Forbes: the physicality, you know, the the functional, physical functional barriers I was 

[00:12:47] Emily Forbes: facing. 

[00:12:48] Emily Forbes: They just, became too much, and I thought no amount of trying to 

[00:12:54] Emily Forbes: will myself through this, push through this, pretend everything's okay, keep 

[00:12:58] Emily Forbes: churning out the 

[00:12:59] Emily Forbes: reports, [00:13:00] no amount of thinking and cognition and intelligence 

[00:13:04] Emily Forbes: at that point 

[00:13:06] Emily Forbes: could 

[00:13:06] Emily Forbes: erase

[00:13:07] Emily Forbes: The, the, the physical conditioning 

[00:13:10] Emily Forbes: of really complex sort of like incapacitation of my body systems essentially.

[00:13:18] Emily Forbes: And that's 

[00:13:18] Emily Forbes: when I realized 

[00:13:19] Emily Forbes: that 

[00:13:21] Emily Forbes: it's too much, I'm giving too much 

[00:13:23] Emily Forbes: of my actual existence, like my 

[00:13:26] Emily Forbes: actual, 

[00:13:27] Emily Forbes: life 

[00:13:29] Emily Forbes: to this role, and it's going 

[00:13:31] Emily Forbes: to kill me. I 

[00:13:32] Emily Forbes: thought, it's just gonna break me if 

[00:13:34] Emily Forbes: I keep going. 

[00:13:35] Emily Forbes: And in the end I was ill health 

[00:13:37] Emily Forbes: retired on the fact that 

[00:13:41] Emily Forbes: because of this number 

[00:13:42] Emily Forbes: of conditions that are so 

[00:13:44] Emily Forbes: inconsistent 

[00:13:46] Emily Forbes: and show up differently 

[00:13:47] Emily Forbes: day to day sometimes 

[00:13:49] Emily Forbes: known as dynamic 

[00:13:50] Emily Forbes: invisible disabilities as well, so, your energy fluctuates and your fatigue fluctuates and your symptoms 

[00:13:56] Emily Forbes: fluctuate.

[00:13:58] Emily Forbes: It 

[00:13:58] Emily Forbes: was understood that I [00:14:00] couldn't then do 60-hour weeks. I couldn't do evening meetings and full days and my body just wasn't able to function in that 

[00:14:09] Emily Forbes: way anymore. And

[00:14:10] Emily Forbes: took me a really long time to 

[00:14:12] Emily Forbes: realize that. So I'd 

[00:14:13] Emily Forbes: had one surgery, I'd gone back to work, 

[00:14:15] Emily Forbes: tried to 

[00:14:16] Emily Forbes: go back full steam again.

[00:14:18] Emily Forbes: Things had gotten worse. I'd had another surgery. I'd done that whole burnout cycle twice essentially, 

[00:14:25] Emily Forbes: and then I 

[00:14:25] Emily Forbes: had to really listen to my body. So 

[00:14:28] Emily Forbes: I think that's when that 

[00:14:31] Emily Forbes: moment that capability stopped overriding is when my body really 

[00:14:35] Emily Forbes: said, "

[00:14:37] Emily Forbes: You can't do this anymore." 

[00:14:38] Sustainable Capacity Equation

[00:14:38] Kathy Washburn: The power of our body to speak.

[00:14:41] Kathy Washburn: and wh- as you're talking, I

[00:14:44] Kathy Washburn: sense this, like, awareness of what's happening in the physical body, but there's still a sense of disembodiment where the knowledge, the brain, the capability [00:15:00] just overrides what the body's saying. And so you have this model, this beautiful model that seems to really, 

[00:15:13] Kathy Washburn: Speak to all of those pieces, how to put them all back together.

[00:15:18] Kathy Washburn: Your model has capacity as resource, plus recovery, plus regulation, 

[00:15:25] Kathy Washburn: plus 

[00:15:26] Kathy Washburn: support, and I l- and I love this part, minus demands 

[00:15:31] Kathy Washburn: and stress load. 

[00:15:33] Kathy Washburn: Capability doesn't appear anywhere in that equation. Why not? And what does it mean that the thing we're most praised for isn't even in the math?

[00:15:45] Emily Forbes: Yeah, 

[00:15:45] Emily Forbes: it's an interesting one, isn't it, that it's not even 

[00:15:48] Emily Forbes: there? I

[00:15:48] Emily Forbes: f- I

[00:15:49] Emily Forbes: think it's 

[00:15:50] Emily Forbes: because

[00:15:51] Emily Forbes: Capability

[00:15:52] Emily Forbes: isn't the fuel 

[00:15:54] Emily Forbes: but it's what gets rewarded. 

[00:15:56] Emily Forbes: It's the outcome and the output that gets rewarded, isn't it? [00:16:00] It's, the 

[00:16:01] Emily Forbes: do more, be 

[00:16:02] Emily Forbes: more, 

[00:16:04] Emily Forbes: learn more, 

[00:16:04] Emily Forbes: qualifications, skills, intelligence, 

[00:16:07] Emily Forbes: all of these things 

[00:16:08] Emily Forbes: that we're collecting into our capability.

[00:16:11] Emily Forbes: But-

[00:16:11] Emily Forbes: without

[00:16:12] Emily Forbes: any support, if you're h- so if you've got all of 

[00:16:15] Emily Forbes: that capability, but 

[00:16:17] Emily Forbes: you've got demands, 

[00:16:20] Emily Forbes: stress load, 

[00:16:21] Emily Forbes: you've not 

[00:16:22] Emily Forbes: got time to recover, to regulate 

[00:16:24] Emily Forbes: the body, all of those things then without the capacity, it doesn't matter 

[00:16:29] Emily Forbes: you've got the You need the fuel, don't you?

[00:16:33] Emily Forbes: You need the fuel, otherwise the outcome 

[00:16:38] Emily Forbes: of having that 

[00:16:38] Emily Forbes: capability, 

[00:16:40] Emily Forbes: It doesn't... It's pointless, it's 

[00:16:42] Emily Forbes: futile because then you can't put it into practice anyway. So 

[00:16:46] Emily Forbes: for me, it's all 

[00:16:46] Emily Forbes: about,

[00:16:47] Emily Forbes: well,

[00:16:48] Emily Forbes: really need 

[00:16:49] Emily Forbes: to build sustainable capacity then? 

[00:16:51] Emily Forbes: Because everyone, we have fluctuating 

[00:16:53] Emily Forbes: capacity anyway, as, as 

[00:16:54] Emily Forbes: individuals, as humans, 

[00:16:57] Emily Forbes: as 

[00:16:57] Emily Forbes: women.

[00:16:58] Emily Forbes: On our cycles 

[00:16:59] Emily Forbes: we've also got [00:17:00] different capacity. 

[00:17:00] Emily Forbes: Some days you've got high energy, some 

[00:17:03] Emily Forbes: low. Depending on if 

[00:17:05] Emily Forbes: we're perimenopausal or menopausal, that's 

[00:17:08] Emily Forbes: als- 

[00:17:08] Emily Forbes: Our hormones fluctuate as well. And then you add 

[00:17:11] Emily Forbes: a layer 

[00:17:11] Emily Forbes: of 

[00:17:12] Emily Forbes: invisible disability or chronic illness or other symptoms, 

[00:17:16] Emily Forbes: and 

[00:17:16] Emily Forbes: everything seems to be minusing from that equation because then you've got the mental load, you've got the physical load on the body, you've 

[00:17:24] Emily Forbes: got the, 

[00:17:25] Emily Forbes: the family load at home- the mother load, the men- all of 

[00:17:29] Emily Forbes: that. And actually, 

[00:17:32] Emily Forbes: everything's 

[00:17:33] Emily Forbes: subtracting and everything's 

[00:17:34] Emily Forbes: taking away and everything's 

[00:17:35] Emily Forbes: extracting, and that's, I 

[00:17:38] Emily Forbes: think, where this mismatch happens. So it doesn't matter how much capability you 

[00:17:43] Emily Forbes: have, 

[00:17:45] Emily Forbes: it's... I think that's the trap, like, the capability trap. Actually- let's look 

[00:17:49] Emily Forbes: at the capacity. Let's look at, 

[00:17:52] Emily Forbes: at, at building up the capacity we need now for 

[00:17:56] Emily Forbes: the 

[00:17:56] Emily Forbes: of 

[00:17:57] Emily Forbes: life that we're in currently 

[00:17:59] Emily Forbes: with a [00:18:00] body and a physiology 

[00:18:01] Emily Forbes: and a psychology and everything that 

[00:18:02] Emily Forbes: is as it is now, not how it used to be, not how we want it to 

[00:18:06] Emily Forbes: be, but 

[00:18:07] Emily Forbes: being really realistic, 

[00:18:09] Emily Forbes: I think, and in, in the present tense with actually 

[00:18:11] Emily Forbes: this is what my real capacity is telling me I can do.

[00:18:15] Emily Forbes: Where do I need support? Where do I need resources? Where do I need to reduce the demands and the stress load, and 

[00:18:20] Emily Forbes: how can I look at that a 

[00:18:21] Emily Forbes: bit differently? 

[00:18:23] Emily Forbes: And 

[00:18:24] Awareness Before Agency

[00:18:24] Emily Forbes: I think the first part of getting to all of that is this thing 

[00:18:27] Emily Forbes: that I talk 

[00:18:28] Emily Forbes: about, awareness before agency. So we've got to understand that, shine a light on 

[00:18:33] Emily Forbes: it, highlight it get to 

[00:18:34] Emily Forbes: the bottom 

[00:18:35] Emily Forbes: of that equation before we can then have agency to do something about 

[00:18:42] Emily Forbes: the things that we can control 

[00:18:44] Emily Forbes: and learn 

[00:18:45] Emily Forbes: to let go of the things that we can't, and that's really hard for me and, I think, for a lot of people, is- We hold on so tightly to the job, the role, the identity.

[00:18:56] Emily Forbes: We don't wanna let that go. 

[00:18:58] Emily Forbes: I'd worked in the public 

[00:18:59] Emily Forbes: sector for [00:19:00] 22 years across different charities and government 

[00:19:03] Emily Forbes: organizations in the last nine years in that CEO role, 

[00:19:06] Emily Forbes: and I'd 

[00:19:06] Emily Forbes: worked really 

[00:19:07] Emily Forbes: hard, and I 

[00:19:08] Emily Forbes: was really good at it, and, I didn't wanna let 

[00:19:10] Emily Forbes: it 

[00:19:10] Emily Forbes: go. But I had to be honest with myself and with others that I didn't 

[00:19:18] Emily Forbes: have the 

[00:19:18] Emily Forbes: capacity anymore.

[00:19:19] Emily Forbes: And it was, 

[00:19:20] Emily Forbes: it, it's hard. It's 

[00:19:21] Emily Forbes: hard to draw the line and to make that 

[00:19:24] Emily Forbes: change. But 

[00:19:25] Emily Forbes: it's also Big exhale. 

[00:19:30] Emily Forbes: As well because you're not 

[00:19:32] Emily Forbes: pretending. It's like unmasking 

[00:19:35] Emily Forbes: and de-cloaking and all of those, 

[00:19:37] Emily Forbes: un-editing ourselves again. 

[00:19:40] Kathy Washburn: Yes. I'm wondering when people usually find you, is it, i- is it pre-awareness?

[00:19:50] Kathy Washburn: Is it the reverberation of something has got to give, 

[00:19:56] Emily Forbes: I think sometimes it's the [00:20:00] recognition 

[00:20:00] Emily Forbes: that 

[00:20:03] Emily Forbes: If you're moving into a new 

[00:20:05] Emily Forbes: chapter, so I've had a couple of clients 

[00:20:07] Emily Forbes: who are going into a new transition or into a new 

[00:20:10] Emily Forbes: chapter, 

[00:20:11] Emily Forbes: and they've wanted coaching and mentoring into 

[00:20:14] Emily Forbes: it. And then others who 

[00:20:16] Emily Forbes: are living well with 

[00:20:19] Emily Forbes: the conditions or chronic conditions or illnesses or diagnoses and 

[00:20:24] Emily Forbes: can foresee 

[00:20:26] Emily Forbes: that 

[00:20:29] Emily Forbes: if they continue in the 

[00:20:29] Emily Forbes: same way and don't make a change and don't look at their 

[00:20:33] Emily Forbes: they're just 

[00:20:33] Emily Forbes: gonna hurtle towards burnout.

[00:20:35] Emily Forbes: And whether they've done that once before, so they- they're recognizing some signs, 

[00:20:38] Emily Forbes: so maybe there is some awareness 

[00:20:40] Emily Forbes: there, 

[00:20:41] Emily Forbes: or whether it's a preventative thing of actually, "I think I'm managing okay. I- I'd like to manage a bit 

[00:20:48] Emily Forbes: better.

[00:20:50] Emily Forbes: What sort

[00:20:50] Emily Forbes: of tools, resources can we 

[00:20:52] Emily Forbes: look at together 

[00:20:53] Emily Forbes: to make sure 

[00:20:53] Emily Forbes: that 

[00:20:55] Emily Forbes: you're living as 

[00:20:56] Emily Forbes: well as you can 

[00:20:56] Emily Forbes: within the circumstances that you've got?"

[00:20:58] Desire and Midlife Pivot

[00:20:58] Kathy Washburn: Yeah, so there is you and [00:21:00] I are both coaches. There is that readiness 

[00:21:02] Kathy Washburn: factor, 

[00:21:03] Kathy Washburn: and I'm always, I'm always a little gobsmacked at what that looks like for different people for that very reason that you just said. Sometimes it is that preemptive, "Okay, I'm about ready to retire. I want this next chapter," or, "My kids are leaving out of the...

[00:21:23] Kathy Washburn: Or I'm in the middle of a divorce and 

[00:21:25] Kathy Washburn: I 

[00:21:25] Kathy Washburn: want something different." there's a desire there. And often women 

[00:21:31] Kathy Washburn: that I work with, when I say the word desire, they're like, "Whoa 

[00:21:34] Kathy Washburn: whoa. Hold on. I don't know what desire is. I don't know if that's what I desire." It's almost like a dirty word sometimes.

[00:21:45] Kathy Washburn: Do you see 

[00:21:46] Emily Forbes: that? I think often, yeah, often because we've not necessarily been brought 

[00:21:52] Emily Forbes: up or learned 

[00:21:53] Emily Forbes: to- 

[00:21:54] Emily Forbes: have our 

[00:21:55] Emily Forbes: needs, wants, desires met. 

[00:21:59] Emily Forbes: as if [00:22:00] we've... I 

[00:22:02] Emily Forbes: don't know, we've 

[00:22:02] Emily Forbes: Worked towards the external. So 

[00:22:05] Emily Forbes: me, I think a lot of, success historically meant 

[00:22:08] Emily Forbes: that external success.

[00:22:10] Emily Forbes: achievements, certifications, 

[00:22:13] Emily Forbes: Job titles, roles. 

[00:22:15] Emily Forbes: All of those external validation markers. And maybe there's a point, 

[00:22:20] Emily Forbes: and I don't know if it's midlife or if it's a 

[00:22:22] Emily Forbes: hormonal change 

[00:22:23] Emily Forbes: or if it's, as you say, 

[00:22:25] Emily Forbes: Post-divorce or children growing 

[00:22:28] Emily Forbes: up, whatever it might be, but there's, 

[00:22:30] Emily Forbes: there seems to be this pivoting, this pivot 

[00:22:32] Emily Forbes: point where 

[00:22:34] Emily Forbes: we start to question 

[00:22:36] Emily Forbes: what was 

[00:22:36] Emily Forbes: all that external validation for if 

[00:22:38] Emily Forbes: internally I don't have Why... 

[00:22:41] Emily Forbes: And then 

[00:22:42] Emily Forbes: am I 

[00:22:43] Emily Forbes: trying to build a life that I want to run away from 

[00:22:46] Emily Forbes: when actually I 

[00:22:47] Emily Forbes: can build a life that I desire and that meets my needs and that works with my 

[00:22:51] Emily Forbes: capacity, and that 

[00:22:54] Emily Forbes: also stretches my capability? Because that's the other thing. This isn't 

[00:22:58] Emily Forbes: about saying, [00:23:00]

[00:23:00] Emily Forbes: well, because you've got a different set of circumstances 

[00:23:03] Emily Forbes: now, 

[00:23:04] Emily Forbes: You strip your everything back to the point where you have no interests or passions or business or work or whatever it might be.

[00:23:11] Emily Forbes: It's about trying 

[00:23:12] Emily Forbes: look at things more 

[00:23:13] Emily Forbes: flexibly and in a different way, and about adapting things to work 

[00:23:18] Emily Forbes: to meet 

[00:23:19] Emily Forbes: your desires. Yeah. 

[00:23:21] Kathy Washburn: I really appreciate that line of thinking. So it's not 

[00:23:26] Kathy Washburn: about becoming less capable as we shift from one part of life to a next, or we embrace new circumstances, whatever they might be.

[00:23:38] Energy Accounting Mindset

[00:23:38] Kathy Washburn: But so what does it actually look like to keep the capability, 

[00:23:44] Kathy Washburn: And let capacity 

[00:23:47] Kathy Washburn: have, 

[00:23:48] Kathy Washburn: have a place

[00:23:50] Emily Forbes: It's interesting, 

[00:23:51] Emily Forbes: this one, because 

[00:23:52] Emily Forbes: I was actually writing a, a 

[00:23:53] Emily Forbes: new essay today saying that, 

[00:23:56] Emily Forbes: Even for me, working with 

[00:23:58] Emily Forbes: this and writing this equation and [00:24:00] working with women and, 

[00:24:01] Emily Forbes: Writing a book on it and everything that my capability often 

[00:24:05] Emily Forbes: writes checks that my capacity can't cash. 

[00:24:09] Kathy Washburn: Ooh, 

[00:24:10] Kathy Washburn: okay, hold on.

[00:24:10] Kathy Washburn: That just gave me the full chills. Can you say that again? 

[00:24:16] Emily Forbes: Yeah, so 

[00:24:18] Emily Forbes: my 

[00:24:18] Emily Forbes: capability often writes 

[00:24:21] Emily Forbes: checks that my capacity can't cash,

[00:24:27] Emily Forbes: or leaves me very overdrawn then, is another 

[00:24:30] Emily Forbes: way of looking at it. 

[00:24:31] Emily Forbes: Mm.

[00:24:32] Emily Forbes: And 

[00:24:32] Emily Forbes: it's all about this energy 

[00:24:34] Emily Forbes: accounting, so that's how I frame things now. 

[00:24:38] Emily Forbes: It's not 

[00:24:39] Emily Forbes: about, 

[00:24:39] Emily Forbes: as you 

[00:24:40] Emily Forbes: say, 

[00:24:42] Emily Forbes: losing capability.

[00:24:43] Emily Forbes: It's not about-

[00:24:48] Emily Forbes: Giving 

[00:24:48] Emily Forbes: up on goals, 

[00:24:50] Emily Forbes: Or on what you want. It's just 

[00:24:53] Emily Forbes: about doing things a little bit differently to how you've always done them before. 

[00:24:58] Emily Forbes: So it's almost 

[00:24:58] Emily Forbes: [00:25:00] like, 

[00:25:00] Emily Forbes: Being able to put 

[00:25:01] Emily Forbes: in place the right 

[00:25:03] Emily Forbes: tools or techniques 

[00:25:05] Crash Protocol Basics

[00:25:05] Emily Forbes: or frameworks to support you with the capacity that you have, and one of those things is something I call the crash protocol because 

[00:25:16] Emily Forbes: there are days 

[00:25:17] Emily Forbes: when I crash still.

[00:25:18] Emily Forbes: And even though I'm pacing and I'm tracking and I'm 

[00:25:21] Emily Forbes: trying to be mindful of my energy expanders and my 

[00:25:27] Emily Forbes: energy extractors and 

[00:25:28] Emily Forbes: all of those 

[00:25:29] Emily Forbes: things, 

[00:25:31] Emily Forbes: there are 

[00:25:32] Emily Forbes: still days when I crash. So actually, have I got a 

[00:25:34] Emily Forbes: easy go-to 

[00:25:36] Emily Forbes: crash protocol that works for me on a low capacity day? Have I got a way of 

[00:25:41] Emily Forbes: being able to flex my calendar, move things 

[00:25:44] Emily Forbes: around when 

[00:25:45] Emily Forbes: capacity is particularly 

[00:25:47] Emily Forbes: low?

[00:25:47] Emily Forbes: And then 

[00:25:48] Emily Forbes: when my capacity 

[00:25:49] Emily Forbes: is high 

[00:25:50] Emily Forbes: I can move my higher energy tasks to that sort of time. So it's just about looking at things from a capacity [00:26:00] lens, not necessarily from that

[00:26:03] Emily Forbes: skill,

[00:26:04] Emily Forbes: knowledge, capability, task lens. It's having a very different lens on things.

[00:26:09] Kathy Washburn: You keep 

[00:26:10] Kathy Washburn: bringing me back 

[00:26:11] Kathy Washburn: to this 

[00:26:11] Kathy Washburn: embodiment, so if the c- t- can you share kind of a crash protocol that 

[00:26:18] Kathy Washburn: you use 

[00:26:19] Kathy Washburn: for yourself 

[00:26:22] Kathy Washburn: in both the awareness 

[00:26:25] Kathy Washburn: and also the 

[00:26:27] Kathy Washburn: agents, like what agency 

[00:26:29] Kathy Washburn: that gives to you?

[00:26:30] Kathy Washburn: Just '

[00:26:31] Kathy Washburn: cause building in a crash protocol to me for a type C is

[00:26:36] Kathy Washburn: like,

[00:26:37] Kathy Washburn: oh, it, I think a type C, because it's so embedded that others' directedness is so embedded in us as we're transitioning, we have to first get over that hurdle of I'm not good enough if I do 

[00:26:51] Kathy Washburn: this. 

[00:26:52] Kathy Washburn: So even 

[00:26:53] Kathy Washburn: to say I have a crash protocol, 

[00:26:56] Kathy Washburn: like, that feels like a little bit of a leap.

[00:26:59] Kathy Washburn: And 

[00:26:59] Kathy Washburn: [00:27:00] so 

[00:27:02] Kathy Washburn: Yeah, share with me a crash protocol and how that gets you from awareness to agency. 

[00:27:09] Emily Forbes: Yeah. 

[00:27:09] Language for Low Capacity

[00:27:09] Emily Forbes: It's 

[00:27:10] Emily Forbes: I understand that kind of, 

[00:27:13] Emily Forbes: Discomfort, you know, 

[00:27:14] Emily Forbes: sitting with 

[00:27:15] Emily Forbes: those words, that I've- I've even got a crash protocol in my lexicon now. That would 

[00:27:22] Emily Forbes: never have, six years 

[00:27:24] Emily Forbes: ago, I- that would 

[00:27:25] Emily Forbes: never have even 

[00:27:25] Emily Forbes: entered my mind, let alone my actual activity.

[00:27:30] Emily Forbes: But there's something there about reframing 

[00:27:32] Emily Forbes: language as well. 

[00:27:33] Emily Forbes: So if I want to be the best can be, if I'm thinking 

[00:27:39] Emily Forbes: about that type C of, the- 

[00:27:41] Emily Forbes: the sort of logical 

[00:27:42] Emily Forbes: steps to take, and action plans, 

[00:27:45] Emily Forbes: and ticking things off, and doing things in that right 

[00:27:48] Emily Forbes: way, 

[00:27:49] Emily Forbes: and actually, what's to say 

[00:27:50] Emily Forbes: that having a crash protocol isn't the right way 

[00:27:55] Emily Forbes: to do that?

[00:27:56] Emily Forbes: Because I can still make 

[00:27:57] Emily Forbes: that as 

[00:27:59] Emily Forbes: a- 

[00:27:59] Emily Forbes: [00:28:00] a sequential, 

[00:28:01] Emily Forbes: logical, i- I can- I 

[00:28:02] Emily Forbes: can put together a lovely database on Notion that I can 

[00:28:05] Emily Forbes: track around, 

[00:28:06] Emily Forbes: If I really wanted to do 

[00:28:07] Emily Forbes: that. But I think the first thing is the recognition, and that is hard. 

[00:28:12] Emily Forbes: So finding some language 

[00:28:14] Emily Forbes: that separates 

[00:28:15] Emily Forbes: you from the situation 

[00:28:16] Emily Forbes: is really helpful.

[00:28:18] Emily Forbes: you say something like, "I notice 

[00:28:20] Emily Forbes: that 

[00:28:22] Emily Forbes: not... I notice that I'm not at full capacity 

[00:28:25] Emily Forbes: today," 

[00:28:26] Emily Forbes: is not saying, "

[00:28:28] Emily Forbes: I'm in a crash." It's- it's 

[00:28:30] Emily Forbes: that one 

[00:28:31] Emily Forbes: step 

[00:28:31] Naming Your Energy

[00:28:31] Emily Forbes: little bit removed, 

[00:28:32] Emily Forbes: and how comfortable does that feel when 

[00:28:34] Emily Forbes: you say, 

[00:28:34] Emily Forbes: "I- 

[00:28:35] Emily Forbes: I'm noticing 

[00:28:36] Emily Forbes: that I haven't got as en- 

[00:28:37] Emily Forbes: much energy as I normally have," or, "I'm noticing that today is

[00:28:42] Emily Forbes: a,

[00:28:42] Emily Forbes: a- a red day for energy, whereas yesterday 

[00:28:44] Emily Forbes: was a green 

[00:28:45] Emily Forbes: day."

[00:28:45] Emily Forbes: So it's about 

[00:28:45] Emily Forbes: finding some language 

[00:28:47] Emily Forbes: that you're comfortable with. 

[00:28:49] Interoception and Safety

[00:28:49] Emily Forbes: and the awareness bit then is the noticing, and sometimes it's 

[00:28:52] Emily Forbes: about 

[00:28:54] Emily Forbes: having the safety in your nervous system. So lots [00:29:00]

[00:29:00] Emily Forbes: of listeners might have heard around 

[00:29:02] Emily Forbes: nervous system regulation something called interoception, and

[00:29:06] Emily Forbes: that 

[00:29:06] Emily Forbes: is what you're talking about in terms of 

[00:29:08] Emily Forbes: body.

[00:29:08] Emily Forbes: So that's 

[00:29:09] Emily Forbes: the feelings and the sensations from- from the body outwards, so inside the body. 

[00:29:15] Emily Forbes: Often we're not comfortable with those feelings. They're... Sometimes those sensations feel like things we want to get rid of, we want 

[00:29:25] Emily Forbes: to 

[00:29:25] Emily Forbes: away, we don't want to feel. 

[00:29:28] Emily Forbes: And 

[00:29:28] When Relaxation Feels Unsafe

[00:29:28] Emily Forbes: I actually remember that when I was in the height of- chronic stress 

[00:29:34] Emily Forbes: and layers 

[00:29:35] Emily Forbes: stress at work 

[00:29:36] Emily Forbes: stress at home, and going through divorce and bereavement, 

[00:29:39] Emily Forbes: and chronic illness, and all of those layers 

[00:29:42] Emily Forbes: that were just, 

[00:29:43] Emily Forbes: you know, compounding one another.

[00:29:45] Emily Forbes: I went for a massage thinking 

[00:29:48] Emily Forbes: I would 

[00:29:49] Emily Forbes: have this luxuriating, relaxing massage. 

[00:29:53] Emily Forbes: But I didn't have that experience at all. I felt like my body was a [00:30:00] tuning 

[00:30:00] Emily Forbes: fork, and it was vibrating and tingling, and like I had all 

[00:30:05] Emily Forbes: this nervous, anxious energy 

[00:30:09] Emily Forbes: that had, 

[00:30:09] Emily Forbes: like, nowhere to go and was being drawn out of me from this massage.

[00:30:13] Emily Forbes: So instead of 

[00:30:14] Emily Forbes: feeling 

[00:30:15] Emily Forbes: relaxed and calm and having, like, 

[00:30:18] Emily Forbes: Deep breathing and everything slowing down and feeling 

[00:30:22] Emily Forbes: that sense of 

[00:30:23] Emily Forbes: peace, I had the complete opposite. I was, like, had 

[00:30:27] Emily Forbes: a tight chest, shallow 

[00:30:29] Emily Forbes: breathing. I felt really like I was bracing for 

[00:30:32] Emily Forbes: something. 

[00:30:33] Emily Forbes: And that's 

[00:30:34] Emily Forbes: because my nervous system wasn't used to that 

[00:30:37] Emily Forbes: calmness and that, and having 

[00:30:40] Emily Forbes: stillness and massage and relaxation, because I was on the 

[00:30:44] Emily Forbes: go- all the time. 

[00:30:47] Emily Forbes: So sometimes interoception and that somatic body work can be a really difficult place to start for people. 

[00:30:56] Emily Forbes: And 

[00:30:57] Emily Forbes: everyone has an individual 

[00:30:58] Emily Forbes: preference, don't they? [00:31:00] So, 

[00:31:00] Emily Forbes: Do what works for you. 

[00:31:02] Emily Forbes: But I 

[00:31:02] Body Scans Without Spirals

[00:31:02] Emily Forbes: started really slowly with 

[00:31:03] Emily Forbes: body scans, 

[00:31:04] Emily Forbes: so laying down- you can close your 

[00:31:07] Emily Forbes: eyes. You 

[00:31:07] Emily Forbes: don't have to.

[00:31:08] Emily Forbes: Sometimes people feel that closing their eyes can be doesn't feel necessarily nice, so you can have your eyes open. And again, it's that noticing bit 

[00:31:16] Emily Forbes: that I was talking about. 

[00:31:17] Emily Forbes: instead of noticing words and what you're thinking and noticing your thoughts, it's about noticing 

[00:31:22] Emily Forbes: sensations in the body.

[00:31:24] Emily Forbes: can start at the tip of your toes, and you can say, "Okay, I'm noticing that I'm feeling some warmth on my 

[00:31:31] Emily Forbes: foot," or that my foot is touching 

[00:31:34] Emily Forbes: the duvet or a 

[00:31:35] Emily Forbes: cushion, whatever it might be, 

[00:31:37] Emily Forbes: and then you move 

[00:31:38] Emily Forbes: up the body. 

[00:31:39] Emily Forbes: And you undertake this 

[00:31:41] Emily Forbes: body scan 

[00:31:41] Emily Forbes: where you're just noticing all the different 

[00:31:43] Emily Forbes: parts of 

[00:31:43] Emily Forbes: your body.

[00:31:44] Emily Forbes: I notice 

[00:31:44] Emily Forbes: that my hip feels a bit hot, 

[00:31:46] Emily Forbes: or I notice 

[00:31:46] Emily Forbes: that my back's in a bit of tension there. But instead of 

[00:31:50] Emily Forbes: labeling things 

[00:31:52] Emily Forbes: and 

[00:31:52] Emily Forbes: then spiraling the thought of what does that mean and 

[00:31:55] Emily Forbes: why is it like that, and does that mean I'm 

[00:31:57] Emily Forbes: sick? Am I more ill than I should be? Do I [00:32:00] need medicine? Instead of all of that thought spiral, it's just let's notice.

[00:32:05] Emily Forbes: And the more you do those body 

[00:32:07] Emily Forbes: scans, 

[00:32:08] Emily Forbes: the more you get comfortable with feeling these 

[00:32:12] Emily Forbes: odd sensations and niggles. 

[00:32:14] Emily Forbes: Even some people, even the 

[00:32:16] Emily Forbes: sound of their heartbeat 

[00:32:19] Emily Forbes: can make them think, "Oh, I can hear my heartbeats." And that 

[00:32:22] Emily Forbes: can the nervous system 

[00:32:24] Emily Forbes: going and getting 

[00:32:25] Emily Forbes: fight 

[00:32:25] Emily Forbes: or flight mode, and 

[00:32:26] Emily Forbes: they find it really difficult 

[00:32:27] Emily Forbes: to 

[00:32:27] Emily Forbes: Come down into that 

[00:32:29] Emily Forbes: rest and digest mode, and I know what that feels like, having been through it and lived through it myself.

[00:32:35] Emily Forbes: So the body scan is a really useful somatic 

[00:32:39] Emily Forbes: tool, as well as breathing 

[00:32:41] Emily Forbes: techniques. 

[00:32:42] Simple Breathing Reset

[00:32:42] Emily Forbes: And I think sometimes people think that breathing techniques have 

[00:32:45] Emily Forbes: to be, going to 

[00:32:47] Emily Forbes: breathwork 

[00:32:49] Emily Forbes: classes 

[00:32:49] Emily Forbes: and having 

[00:32:50] Emily Forbes: these 

[00:32:51] Emily Forbes: epiphanic spiritual 

[00:32:52] Emily Forbes: in the jungle 

[00:32:53] Emily Forbes: and... But that, that's 

[00:32:54] Emily Forbes: not the case at all.

[00:32:55] Emily Forbes: Sometimes, really simple, making the exhale longer 

[00:32:59] Emily Forbes: [00:33:00] than 

[00:33:00] Emily Forbes: inhale, because it just sends a message. It's called the 

[00:33:02] Emily Forbes: parasympathetic sigh. It sends a message to the nervous system, it's okay to relax now and to bring down the energy 

[00:33:11] Emily Forbes: and to bring 

[00:33:11] Emily Forbes: down the heart rate, and that's 

[00:33:13] Emily Forbes: taking a deep 

[00:33:14] Emily Forbes: breath in, another breath at the top, and then 

[00:33:17] Emily Forbes: a huge, 

[00:33:18] Emily Forbes: long, big exhale.

[00:33:20] Emily Forbes: And even just doing some 

[00:33:21] Emily Forbes: of those simple breathing techniques can just help that 

[00:33:26] Emily Forbes: energy move through us and bring us into a calmer state. Once we're in a calmer 

[00:33:31] Emily Forbes: state, we can have more awareness. 

[00:33:33] Emily Forbes: And then once we've got 

[00:33:34] Emily Forbes: that 

[00:33:34] Emily Forbes: awareness, we might be in a position to make some changes or 

[00:33:39] Emily Forbes: start thinking about 

[00:33:40] Emily Forbes: making some changes and 

[00:33:41] Emily Forbes: having that agency.

[00:33:42] Crash Day Capacity Check

[00:33:42] Kathy Washburn: So the crash, for you a crash protocol first starts with that nervous system regulation 

[00:33:50] Kathy Washburn: just... 

[00:33:51] Kathy Washburn: And it doesn't have to be all zen and, 

[00:33:55] Kathy Washburn: It really is interception, introception of [00:34:00] feeling your body. 

[00:34:03] Emily Forbes: Noticing. Noticing, 

[00:34:05] Emily Forbes: feeling the sensations, 

[00:34:07] Emily Forbes: and allowing yourself 

[00:34:08] Emily Forbes: to sit with that.

[00:34:09] Emily Forbes: And then 

[00:34:10] Emily Forbes: I think then 

[00:34:12] Emily Forbes: once we've done that, you can make some, you can make 

[00:34:16] Emily Forbes: some calls about that. You can say, "Okay, well, 

[00:34:17] Emily Forbes: how am I really 

[00:34:18] Emily Forbes: feeling in my body today? 

[00:34:20] Emily Forbes: What's my battery like? 

[00:34:21] Emily Forbes: What's my capacity like? What have I got capacity for?" not what have 

[00:34:24] Emily Forbes: I got to do, but what have I actually really got capacity for today?

[00:34:28] Emily Forbes: And some days that might be I've got capacity to do the absolute 

[00:34:34] Emily Forbes: bare minimum 

[00:34:34] Emily Forbes: basics, and that's okay. 

[00:34:37] Emily Forbes: I think people, 

[00:34:39] Emily Forbes: We have all this self-guilt and, you know- and sabotage around us just 

[00:34:47] Emily Forbes: being human beings that need 

[00:34:49] Emily Forbes: radical rest 

[00:34:50] Emily Forbes: sometimes. And 

[00:34:51] Emily Forbes: sometimes that means hydration, nourishment, and not d- 

[00:34:56] Emily Forbes: being, not forcing ourselves 

[00:34:57] Emily Forbes: to do anything that day [00:35:00]

[00:35:00] Emily Forbes: And 

[00:35:01] Emily Forbes: if that happens, then that happens.

[00:35:03] Emily Forbes: And it's about learning to, 

[00:35:06] Emily Forbes: yeah, to accept 

[00:35:07] Emily Forbes: the discomfort 

[00:35:07] Emily Forbes: of that as the, as part of life. 

[00:35:09] Emily Forbes: And not 

[00:35:10] Emily Forbes: judge ourselves for it, whereas historically I wouldn't 

[00:35:13] Emily Forbes: have allowed myself to even be in a position where my body said to me, "You need to 

[00:35:19] Emily Forbes: crash for the day," 

[00:35:20] Emily Forbes: because I would've overridden everything with that, 

[00:35:23] Emily Forbes: That chronic sort of stress response of, I must do more, I must, 

[00:35:28] Emily Forbes: go more, go 

[00:35:30] Emily Forbes: harder, push harder.

[00:35:31] Emily Forbes: I'm clearly not... 

[00:35:33] Emily Forbes: I'm, there's clearly something wrong with 

[00:35:35] Emily Forbes: me if I can't do that. But actually, 

[00:35:37] Emily Forbes: if I really listen and tune in to what my body needs 

[00:35:41] Emily Forbes: from a very somatic level, 

[00:35:44] Emily Forbes: then we've gotta go body first, and then we can 

[00:35:47] Emily Forbes: look at thoughts and cognitions and beliefs and, 

[00:35:51] Emily Forbes: Reprogramming anything that we've been taught and unlearning all 

[00:35:55] Emily Forbes: of those really unhelpful things that we've been taught growing up,

[00:35:58] Emily Forbes: like,

[00:35:59] Emily Forbes: Hard [00:36:00] work matters more than rest or, 

[00:36:03] Emily Forbes: Doing 

[00:36:03] Emily Forbes: more 

[00:36:04] Emily Forbes: matters than being 

[00:36:05] Emily Forbes: more.

[00:36:06] Emily Forbes: of those, 

[00:36:07] Emily Forbes: mistruths that we've been brought 

[00:36:09] Emily Forbes: up on and that have 

[00:36:09] Emily Forbes: us to 

[00:36:10] Emily Forbes: the place, where we've burned out or where 

[00:36:13] Emily Forbes: we're having to do things differently. But yeah, I think a body-first approach to 

[00:36:19] Emily Forbes: a crash day, 

[00:36:20] Emily Forbes: starting with the very basics. 

[00:36:22] Emily Forbes: Have I got enough 

[00:36:23] Emily Forbes: hydration, nourishment, rest?

[00:36:26] Emily Forbes: And sometimes it's even about, like, it's not necessarily 

[00:36:29] Emily Forbes: about silence. It can be about having some, 

[00:36:31] Emily Forbes: some 

[00:36:32] Emily Forbes: sti- 

[00:36:32] Emily Forbes: some stimulation, like an audiobook or a podcast or something that's not too, not too 

[00:36:37] Emily Forbes: cognitively energetic or draining 

[00:36:39] Emily Forbes: for you, 

[00:36:40] Emily Forbes: and knowing that's okay. 

[00:36:42] Emily Forbes: It's okay for me to lie down 

[00:36:44] Emily Forbes: and 

[00:36:44] Emily Forbes: listen to this audiobook because my body needs 

[00:36:47] Emily Forbes: that today.

[00:36:48]

[00:36:48] Emily Forbes: Who's telling you that's not okay?

[00:36:51] Kathy Washburn: Yes. 

[00:36:52] Kathy Washburn: And sometimes it's that five-year-old all jacked up on Red Bull that's... 

[00:36:58] 

[00:36:58] Kathy Washburn: There's over and over [00:37:00] I hear clients when we go to the noticing, 

[00:37:04] Kathy Washburn: I hear them reach for numbing-

[00:37:07] Kathy Washburn: And that, that noticing has been 

[00:37:12] Kathy Washburn: a, a catalyst 

[00:37:14] Kathy Washburn: in being able to then shift.

[00:37:18] Kathy Washburn: But it's the noticing of, "I'm just gonna go get another cup of coffee," 

[00:37:22] Kathy Washburn: or, "

[00:37:23] Kathy Washburn: I'm gonna go run for three 

[00:37:25] Kathy Washburn: miles," to, 

[00:37:27] Kathy Washburn: Give myself some energy, when 

[00:37:31] Kathy Washburn: really 

[00:37:32] Kathy Washburn: it depletes them even 

[00:37:33] Kathy Washburn: more. But those old 

[00:37:36] Kathy Washburn: those old re- responses, "I'm gonna have a couple glasses of wine," ... or I ha- I've been working with younger women recently, and my generation, I'm gonna be 60, I don't often hear this, but these younger women are like, "I'm gonna go reach for an 

[00:37:52] Kathy Washburn: Adderall 

[00:37:55] Kathy Washburn: and and boost my energy."

[00:37:57] Kathy Washburn: So these- ...laying down [00:38:00] of these things that actually move us away from our body, not into our body- 

[00:38:07] Kathy Washburn: ... 

[00:38:07] Kathy Washburn: so that we can,

[00:38:09] Kathy Washburn: Have that capacity because all of those things drain our capacity.

[00:38:17] Emily Forbes: And

[00:38:17] Emily Forbes: over time, when that becomes that 

[00:38:20] Emily Forbes: chronic stress cycle- 

[00:38:22] Emily Forbes: ... 

[00:38:22] Emily Forbes: so your body 

[00:38:24] Emily Forbes: is in 

[00:38:24] Emily Forbes: fight or flight.

[00:38:27] Emily Forbes: It's not 

[00:38:27] Emily Forbes: getting the rest and digest, 

[00:38:29] Emily Forbes: so it's not recouping. It's not recovering. It's not regulating, and you're kept in 

[00:38:34] Emily Forbes: this high, super 

[00:38:36] Emily Forbes: hypervigilance mode. 

[00:38:38] Emily Forbes: And then 

[00:38:39] Emily Forbes: when you need more energy, you just reach 

[00:38:41] Emily Forbes: for that 

[00:38:42] Emily Forbes: caffeine, or when you want 

[00:38:44] Emily Forbes: to calm down or quieten down, you reach for, you medicate, or you self-medicate, or you reach for alcohol.

[00:38:51] Emily Forbes: It's almost like- We've learned 

[00:38:56] Emily Forbes: to try 

[00:38:56] Emily Forbes: and get rid of feelings that we 

[00:38:58] Emily Forbes: don't want, 

[00:38:59] Emily Forbes: [00:39:00] sensations that we don't like. 

[00:39:02] Emily Forbes: And how can 

[00:39:03] Emily Forbes: we get curious? I say to 

[00:39:05] Emily Forbes: my clients, "Well, let's 

[00:39:06] Emily Forbes: get curious 

[00:39:07] Emily Forbes: about that."

[00:39:08] Emily Forbes: Why were you wanting to 

[00:39:09] Emily Forbes: override that feeling? 

[00:39:11] Emily Forbes: What, what made you 

[00:39:13] Emily Forbes: feel that you couldn't sit with that?

[00:39:14] Emily Forbes: Why did you want to... 

[00:39:15] Emily Forbes: And actually sometimes it's patterns it's patterns and it's, habits. But sometimes it's when you drill down through 

[00:39:22] Emily Forbes: like neurological levels, for example, 

[00:39:25] Emily Forbes: it's the environment that you're in maybe isn't conducive to 

[00:39:29] Emily Forbes: you feeling those feelings, 

[00:39:30] Emily Forbes: so 

[00:39:31] Emily Forbes: you think, so you know, 

[00:39:31] Emily Forbes: you're not 

[00:39:32] Emily Forbes: In a sort of healing 

[00:39:33] Emily Forbes: environment necessarily so you're trying to escape from that.

[00:39:36] Emily Forbes: And you're using whatever you're using, 

[00:39:38] Emily Forbes: whether it's 

[00:39:39] Emily Forbes: fitness or substance misuse or whatever it might be, you're using 

[00:39:42] Emily Forbes: it to escape. 

[00:39:44] Beliefs and Healing Support

[00:39:44] Emily Forbes: or is it that at 

[00:39:47] Emily Forbes: a beliefs level? So it's, it might be 

[00:39:50] Emily Forbes: that you've got 

[00:39:51] Emily Forbes: these ingrained beliefs 

[00:39:53] Emily Forbes: that are saying, "Well, actually 

[00:39:54] Emily Forbes: this is the belief 

[00:39:55] Emily Forbes: that I'm holding true about myself.

[00:39:57] Emily Forbes: If I don't do this, I'm not 

[00:39:58] Emily Forbes: enough. [00:40:00] If I don't show up, 

[00:40:01] Emily Forbes: I, 

[00:40:01] Emily Forbes: I'm not good enough. I 

[00:40:03] Emily Forbes: a loser." Whatever you've been, whatever it you've 

[00:40:07] Emily Forbes: either been programmed or whatever the bully said to you in a school 

[00:40:10] Emily Forbes: playground maybe. 

[00:40:11] Emily Forbes: Whatever your, was said in your familial 

[00:40:13] Emily Forbes: household growing up.

[00:40:15] Emily Forbes: All of that is programmed into our psyches, and 

[00:40:19] Emily Forbes: what we're doing is we're using all these different methods because we're perpetuating those beliefs. 

[00:40:25] Emily Forbes: Whereas 

[00:40:27] Emily Forbes: if we really take a good look 

[00:40:29] Emily Forbes: at, 

[00:40:30] Emily Forbes: Where's that voice coming from, is it really your own 

[00:40:33] Emily Forbes: voice? 

[00:40:34] Emily Forbes: Or is 

[00:40:34] Emily Forbes: it, an old school teacher's voice?

[00:40:36] Emily Forbes: Or your Mm .........first 

[00:40:37] Emily Forbes: manager's voice, or your 

[00:40:40] Emily Forbes: boyfriend, or or 

[00:40:41] Emily Forbes: your ex-husband, whatever it might be. And

[00:40:44] Emily Forbes: that's when some of that more deeper work I think involves either therapeutic support from 

[00:40:49] Emily Forbes: or therapy, 

[00:40:50] Emily Forbes: or 

[00:40:51] Emily Forbes: support from qualified coaches that 

[00:40:53] Emily Forbes: can help 

[00:40:54] Emily Forbes: you through that.

[00:40:54] Emily Forbes: Because sometimes when we look at our beliefs 

[00:40:57] Emily Forbes: and our 

[00:40:57] Emily Forbes: values and our 

[00:40:58] Emily Forbes: [00:41:00] identity, there's a lot of unpicking 

[00:41:02] Emily Forbes: of old wounds to do there, so we've got to be trauma-informed about it, and we've got to make sure that we're not doing that, in a 

[00:41:08] Emily Forbes: place that's gonna make the client worse.

[00:41:11] Kathy Washburn: Yes, and I would add to that it's not in a place of our own 

[00:41:18] Kathy Washburn: head.

[00:41:19] Kathy Washburn: You can do a lot of this work, 

[00:41:21] Kathy Washburn: Yourself, but, 

[00:41:23] Kathy Washburn: The witnessing 

[00:41:25] Kathy Washburn: of 

[00:41:25] Kathy Washburn: somebody that can hold that space for you when you're processing these things, I think it's just an integral part of the healing. I was reading today, do you know Esther Perel? 

[00:41:39] Kathy Washburn: She, 

[00:41:40] Kathy Washburn: I love her Substack, and she had a post 

[00:41:43] Kathy Washburn: today about 

[00:41:44] Kathy Washburn: are you using 

[00:41:45] Kathy Washburn: ChatGPT to solve 

[00:41:48] Kathy Washburn: your relationship problems?

[00:41:50] Kathy Washburn: And she had a 

[00:41:50] Kathy Washburn: poll, she has a poll as part of 

[00:41:53] Kathy Washburn: her newsletter and sh- she had just recently 

[00:41:56] Kathy Washburn: had a podcast 

[00:41:57] Kathy Washburn: interview with somebody who was doing that, [00:42:00] who was using ChatGPT and bringing it into their relationship. 

[00:42:04] Kathy Washburn: And- 

[00:42:06] Kathy Washburn: I don't think 

[00:42:07] Kathy Washburn: ChatGPT is 

[00:42:07] Kathy Washburn: the 

[00:42:08] Kathy Washburn: place to hold witness, 

[00:42:11] Kathy Washburn: because you're in 

[00:42:13] Kathy Washburn: this 

[00:42:14] Kathy Washburn: spinning cycle of your own head.

[00:42:19] Kathy Washburn: It's like swimming in a pond that's not clear. You ... There's something that needs to invite that clarity, whether it's that crash day where you can just be still enough 

[00:42:31] Kathy Washburn: to let the mud settle, 

[00:42:33] Kathy Washburn: or getting out and swimming in a different pond where there's a little more spaciousness or clarity. So yes that idea of finding a place where you can process those beliefs understand whose voice it is separate you from that voice and grow in that way.[00:43:00]

[00:43:00] Kathy Washburn: Wow. This all's- 

[00:43:01] Emily Forbes: know that you can ... Sorry, I 

[00:43:03] Emily Forbes: just gonna say, and know 

[00:43:04] Emily Forbes: you can change 

[00:43:05] Emily Forbes: those beliefs.

[00:43:06] Kathy Washburn: Yes. 

[00:43:08] Kathy Washburn: Yes. 

[00:43:08] Emily Forbes: And 

[00:43:08] Emily Forbes: you 

[00:43:09] Emily Forbes: can change those thoughts, 

[00:43:10] Emily Forbes: and you can 

[00:43:11] Emily Forbes: reprogram those, those limiting beliefs or those thoughts that aren't helping 

[00:43:17] Emily Forbes: you, and you can find 

[00:43:19] Emily Forbes: more 

[00:43:20] Emily Forbes: resilient thoughts and thoughts that help you to propel forward and make changes.

[00:43:26] Kathy Washburn: Choosing. 

[00:43:28] Kathy Washburn: I think so 

[00:43:29] Kathy Washburn: often in that 

[00:43:31] Kathy Washburn: capacity 

[00:43:33] Kathy Washburn: cap- in that capability trap there's almost a lack of choice 

[00:43:41] Kathy Washburn: Or there's always a lack of choice. There's this idea that we are just, our capabilities are endless, and that- 

[00:43:51] Kathy Washburn: there's a, which is a choice in itself. 

[00:43:57] Emily Forbes: And I think, that's where 

[00:43:59] Emily Forbes: [00:44:00] you can move 

[00:44:00] Emily Forbes: from 

[00:44:02] Emily Forbes: having the 

[00:44:02] Emily Forbes: information, so, knowing it, and 

[00:44:06] Emily Forbes: then moving that through 

[00:44:08] Emily Forbes: to transformation and actually actually changing 

[00:44:11] Emily Forbes: it.

[00:44:12] Emily Forbes: And I think that's the, that 

[00:44:13] Emily Forbes: bit about awareness 

[00:44:15] Emily Forbes: to agency. It's similar around that sort of ChatGPT point. You can have all 

[00:44:20] Emily Forbes: the information 

[00:44:21] Emily Forbes: and the knowledge 

[00:44:21] Emily Forbes: and the resources, 

[00:44:24] Emily Forbes: but then 

[00:44:25] Emily Forbes: without being 

[00:44:26] Emily Forbes: able to apply that 

[00:44:28] Emily Forbes: in the real-world 

[00:44:29] Emily Forbes: situation and have, 

[00:44:31] Emily Forbes: A thinking 

[00:44:31] Emily Forbes: partner that can create 

[00:44:33] Emily Forbes: rapport with you 

[00:44:34] Emily Forbes: and can, 

[00:44:35] Emily Forbes: Hold you in 

[00:44:36] Emily Forbes: that, that 

[00:44:37] Emily Forbes: really complex, difficult, 

[00:44:40] Emily Forbes: Human-to-human space is so important.

[00:44:44] Emily Forbes: And that's where technology can't progress. 

[00:44:50] Emily Forbes: I think it's brilliant 

[00:44:52] Emily Forbes: for helping coaches and clients with tools and information and frameworks and understanding and knowledge, [00:45:00] but not necessarily 

[00:45:03] Emily Forbes: in terms of 

[00:45:05] Emily Forbes: the witnessing and 

[00:45:06] Emily Forbes: the being seen. Being seen 

[00:45:08] Emily Forbes: is so valuable. I felt so 

[00:45:11] Emily Forbes: unseen when 

[00:45:13] Emily Forbes: I was in that role because I was 

[00:45:15] Emily Forbes: so visible, yet so invisible at the same 

[00:45:20] Emily Forbes: time.

[00:45:20] Emily Forbes: I was this, 

[00:45:22] Emily Forbes: Capable, achieving CEO and invisibly very disabled and 

[00:45:32] Emily Forbes: dysfunctioning in my body to a point that my health was 

[00:45:37] Emily Forbes: rapidly declining. 

[00:45:40] Emily Forbes: And 

[00:45:40] Emily Forbes: how you can be both 

[00:45:42] Emily Forbes: those and at the same time, I 

[00:45:45] Emily Forbes: think is probably down to that witnessing 

[00:45:48] Emily Forbes: and that being seen, being heard, and being understood.

[00:45:52] Emily Forbes: And sometimes you've 

[00:45:53] Emily Forbes: gotta, 

[00:45:54] Emily Forbes: they say you can only meet 

[00:45:55] Emily Forbes: someone as far 

[00:45:56] Emily Forbes: as you're willing to 

[00:45:57] Emily Forbes: have met yourself. 

[00:45:59] Emily Forbes: And I 

[00:45:59] Emily Forbes: don't mean 

[00:45:59] Emily Forbes: [00:46:00] that necessarily in a sort of 

[00:46:02] Emily Forbes: way, but in a 

[00:46:02] Emily Forbes: way 

[00:46:03] Emily Forbes: of 

[00:46:04] Emily Forbes: really understanding 

[00:46:06] Emily Forbes: where you've been and your 

[00:46:07] Emily Forbes: journey and 

[00:46:08] Emily Forbes: the decisions you've made and the choices 

[00:46:09] Emily Forbes: you've made and, 

[00:46:11] Emily Forbes: you know, did I choose capability over capacity all, for all those years?

[00:46:15] Emily Forbes: I w- 

[00:46:15] Emily Forbes: probably was choosing 

[00:46:17] Emily Forbes: that, yeah. 

[00:46:18] Emily Forbes: And why was I choosing that? Was that because I had a, an 

[00:46:21] Emily Forbes: inbuilt, identity that 

[00:46:23] Emily Forbes: I needed to be high-achieving and to, to show the world and to be in that role in order to be enough as a human? Maybe that was my 

[00:46:32] Emily Forbes: programming that, 

[00:46:34] Emily Forbes: that led to 

[00:46:34] Emily Forbes: that. But 

[00:46:36] Emily Forbes: now I've lived that experience from the inside out, 

[00:46:40] Emily Forbes: I think that's what also then can help other 

[00:46:44] Emily Forbes: women, 'cause it's not 

[00:46:45] Emily Forbes: just that I'm, I have 

[00:46:48] Emily Forbes: capability 

[00:46:49] Emily Forbes: and the knowledge.

[00:46:50] Emily Forbes: It's that I've been through the 

[00:46:51] Emily Forbes: capacity piece myself. I'm 

[00:46:53] Emily Forbes: still, I live with this Mm all the time. And 

[00:46:57] Emily Forbes: yes, I'm not 

[00:46:58] Emily Forbes: perfect and I'm not getting it right [00:47:00] all the time, but 

[00:47:01] Emily Forbes: as you said at the beginning of our conversation, I'm probably 

[00:47:04] Emily Forbes: a bit further down the road, 

[00:47:06] Emily Forbes: is why it's 

[00:47:06] Emily Forbes: helpful then that 

[00:47:07] Emily Forbes: I can introduce this equation and this coaching and this support to people- You know, who need 

[00:47:15] Emily Forbes: it, and I wish I had it 

[00:47:17] Emily Forbes: when 

[00:47:18] Emily Forbes: I was at the, height of that kind of distress.

[00:47:22]

[00:47:22] Kathy Washburn: And 

[00:47:23] Too Hard to Swallow Story

[00:47:23] Kathy Washburn: what a gift you are to the world. Your book 

[00:47:26] Kathy Washburn: Too Hard To 

[00:47:27] Kathy Washburn: Swallow, 

[00:47:29] Kathy Washburn: dang, 

[00:47:29] Kathy Washburn: what a beautiful name. 

[00:47:32] Kathy Washburn: We'll have 

[00:47:32] Kathy Washburn: a link 

[00:47:33] Kathy Washburn: to that. 

[00:47:33] Kathy Washburn: Can you just give me a, a little 

[00:47:35] Kathy Washburn: behind the scenes of that title? 

[00:47:39] Emily Forbes: Yeah, 

[00:47:39] Emily Forbes: so I mean, 

[00:47:40] Emily Forbes: figuratively speaking, it's the thought that, 

[00:47:44] Emily Forbes: Certain things in life are too hard 

[00:47:45] Emily Forbes: to swallow.

[00:47:46] Emily Forbes: And whether that's 

[00:47:47] Emily Forbes: change, chronic illness, divorce, bereavement, whatever it might be, they're really difficult life transitions, 

[00:47:55] Emily Forbes: I suppose, to go 

[00:47:56] Emily Forbes: through. But also physically 

[00:47:59] Emily Forbes: for me, my [00:48:00] esophagus just doesn't function properly, so I haven't 

[00:48:03] Emily Forbes: swallowed solid food 

[00:48:05] Emily Forbes: now for six years. And I think that 

[00:48:09] Emily Forbes: all that chronic 

[00:48:10] Emily Forbes: stress and 

[00:48:12] Emily Forbes: layers of loss I was talking 

[00:48:14] Emily Forbes: about, and having that 

[00:48:17] Emily Forbes: being capability-led probably 

[00:48:20] Emily Forbes: was at the detriment of my body.

[00:48:23] Emily Forbes: I'm not saying it caused it, but it pro- it probably didn't help it get any better, and I think it probably helped it decline. So the, the book came from that and really the journey 

[00:48:35] Emily Forbes: that I went on 

[00:48:37] Emily Forbes: from exploring trying to find a cure 

[00:48:41] Emily Forbes: and trying to think that if I could just 

[00:48:44] Emily Forbes: do the next best thing and see the next consultant and the next 

[00:48:48] Emily Forbes: surgery and that wanting and wishing and hoping.

[00:48:52] Emily Forbes: And then the lessons I learned along the way and coming to terms with 

[00:48:56] Emily Forbes: the fact 

[00:48:56] Emily Forbes: that- Actually, isn't life 

[00:48:59] Emily Forbes: [00:49:00] about living now as well as I 

[00:49:02] Emily Forbes: can live in 

[00:49:02] Emily Forbes: this present moment? And if I can't swallow 

[00:49:05] Emily Forbes: food, 

[00:49:06] Emily Forbes: what can I 

[00:49:06] Emily Forbes: do? And 

[00:49:08] Emily Forbes: that's where a lot of 

[00:49:09] Emily Forbes: this sort of locus 

[00:49:10] Emily Forbes: of control and this capability and capacity 

[00:49:14] Emily Forbes: all of these 

[00:49:14] Emily Forbes: conversations really came 

[00:49:18] Emily Forbes: from in the very beginning, because I was having a huge identity crisis around my life falling apart and what it was taking away from me.

[00:49:27] Emily Forbes: And the capability side of me and that determination 

[00:49:30] Emily Forbes: and strong will was saying, "I'm not," "I'm not gonna let 

[00:49:33] Emily Forbes: this beat me." 

[00:49:35] Emily Forbes: But 

[00:49:35] Emily Forbes: I'm much more gentle 

[00:49:36] Emily Forbes: with myself 

[00:49:37] Emily Forbes: now. So yeah, so the book is part memoir, part 

[00:49:40] Emily Forbes: self-help, and there's some 

[00:49:42] Emily Forbes: coaching tools in 

[00:49:43] Emily Forbes: there. The, 

[00:49:44] Emily Forbes: Some of them we've talked about, so the different breathing exercises are in there, the body 

[00:49:49] Emily Forbes: scan is 

[00:49:49] Emily Forbes: in 

[00:49:50] Emily Forbes: there, 

[00:49:50] Emily Forbes: interoception and intuition and really listening in to what your body needs, all 

[00:49:56] Emily Forbes: of that's in there, as well as a template for what a wellness [00:50:00] plan might look like 

[00:50:01] Emily Forbes: for you.

[00:50:01] Emily Forbes: So 

[00:50:02] Emily Forbes: looking at how can you talk to your relatives, to your work, your employer, and others, and to clinicians or doctors 

[00:50:10] Emily Forbes: about 

[00:50:11] Emily Forbes: the impact on your quality of life, because I think 

[00:50:14] Emily Forbes: that's 

[00:50:14] Emily Forbes: why I actually wrote Too Hard to Swallow, was about the impact on the, my quality of life that no one was seeing and no one was ever really 

[00:50:22] Emily Forbes: asking about, 

[00:50:24] Emily Forbes: the, emotional and the spiritual side 

[00:50:28] Emily Forbes: of 

[00:50:29] Emily Forbes: a physical condition.

[00:50:31] Emily Forbes: So yeah, 

[00:50:31] Emily Forbes: so 

[00:50:32] Emily Forbes: That's the book. So- ...I'd encourage everyone to go and buy a copy and have a read, and get in 

[00:50:37] Emily Forbes: touch- Yes ... with 

[00:50:37] Emily Forbes: me with questions or comments. I love to hear 

[00:50:41] Emily Forbes: feedback from how people found it. 

[00:50:43] Kathy Washburn: Yes. I ordered it. I have yet to get it. I live in the middle of nowhere here in New Hampshire, and we're really struggling with our mail carrier, so 

[00:50:52] Kathy Washburn: I have 

[00:50:52] Kathy Washburn: a lot of little treasures that have yet to arrive at my home.

[00:50:57] Kathy Washburn: So I can't wait- Excellent ...............to get that [00:51:00] one. 

[00:51:00] Essence in a Pill

[00:51:00] Kathy Washburn: I h- I feel... There's one more question that I ask everybody that I interview. If I were to crush you, your essence up and put it in pill form, what effect would you have on someone taking that pill?

[00:51:16] Kathy Washburn: Parents do need to be able to swallow that pill 

[00:51:19] Emily Forbes: Which for me is quite hard and when I have pills I have to either crush them or I have to, like, open them up and tip their 

[00:51:25] Emily Forbes: contents out. 

[00:51:26] Emily Forbes: No, but I think I think the essence would be 

[00:51:30] Emily Forbes: that 

[00:51:31] Emily Forbes: they feel seen understood, and 

[00:51:35] Emily Forbes: that 

[00:51:37] Emily Forbes: the load 

[00:51:37] Emily Forbes: quite so heavy.

[00:51:39] Emily Forbes: That they can put 

[00:51:40] Emily Forbes: something down

[00:51:41] Emily Forbes: Because they've got someone navigating that journey with them 

[00:51:46] Emily Forbes: who is reminding them 

[00:51:48] Emily Forbes: that 

[00:51:49] Emily Forbes: it's not up to you 

[00:51:50] Emily Forbes: to carry 

[00:51:51] Emily Forbes: everyone's everything. 

[00:51:53] Kathy Washburn: Wow. Which really 

[00:51:57] Kathy Washburn: is 

[00:51:59] Emily Forbes: [00:52:00] capacity

[00:52:03] Emily Forbes: Needs. and all of 

[00:52:06] Emily Forbes: those bits that come with that, and not feeling guilty, and setting 

[00:52:09] Emily Forbes: boundaries,

[00:52:10] Emily Forbes: and learning your 

[00:52:12] Emily Forbes: limits, 

[00:52:13] Emily Forbes: and saying no, 

[00:52:15] Emily Forbes: and understanding your patterns, and 

[00:52:18] Emily Forbes: being able 

[00:52:18] Emily Forbes: to articulate and advocate for 

[00:52:20] Emily Forbes: yourself 

[00:52:22] Emily Forbes: in a way that matches your capacity.

[00:52:25] Kathy Washburn: What a beautiful gift. 

[00:52:29] Kathy Washburn: This has 

[00:52:29] Kathy Washburn: been such a pleasure.

[00:52:32] Kathy Washburn: I'm so grateful for your 

[00:52:33] Kathy Washburn: time. Is there anything else that you'd like to add before we, we sign off? 

[00:52:41] Capacity Protocol and Farewell

[00:52:41] Emily Forbes: Only 

[00:52:41] Emily Forbes: to add that 

[00:52:43] Emily Forbes: I've developed this 

[00:52:44] Emily Forbes: capacity protocol into a coaching arc for people with 

[00:52:50] Emily Forbes: phases through it where we look in more detail 

[00:52:54] Emily Forbes: at some of those things that we've talked about around, first of all the awareness 

[00:52:59] Emily Forbes: the [00:53:00] reckoning and knowing that you're even 

[00:53:01] Emily Forbes: at a point where you need support, all the way through to what that support might look like.

[00:53:06] Emily Forbes: So people can 

[00:53:08] Emily Forbes: get in touch with me on Substack 

[00:53:10] Emily Forbes: or on my website, which is wyldwellbeing.uk. 

[00:53:15] Kathy Washburn: And that is wyld spelled W-Y-L-D-E. But we'll have all of your contact information, and I just know that the listeners right now are searching you because you the way that you articulate re-identification for people is just so beautiful.

[00:53:35] Kathy Washburn: So thank you for your time. 

[00:53:38] Emily Forbes: Thank you, Cathy. Thanks 

[00:53:39] Emily Forbes: for having me, and I'm so glad 

[00:53:40] Emily Forbes: been able 

[00:53:41] Emily Forbes: to connect on Substack. 

[00:53:42] Emily Forbes: It's 

[00:53:42] Kathy Washburn: Yes ...

[00:53:43] Emily Forbes: a- 

[00:53:43] Emily Forbes: wonderful place for new 

[00:53:44] Emily Forbes: connections, isn't it? 

[00:53:46] Kathy Washburn: Yes, it 

[00:53:46] Kathy Washburn: certainly is. And 

[00:53:48] Kathy Washburn: I'll keep watching you there. Your work inspires mine, and that, I think that's how the world is meant

[00:53:54] Kathy Washburn: To tick.

[00:53:55] Kathy Washburn: So thank you. 

[00:53:57] Kathy Washburn: I wish you well.

[00:53:58]