Authenticity, Connection in Spiritual Spaces + Resiliency with Patrick Doyle (part 1)

What happens when you grow up in an abusive, alcoholic household and manage to transform that pain into a powerful force for healing others? Join us as we sit down with Patrick Doyle, a remarkable expert in emotional abuse recovery and addiction counseling. Through his personal story, Patrick reveals how he overcame a turbulent childhood and internal struggles to become a guiding light for others seeking recovery. His journey, filled with resilience and passion, serves as a testament to the human spirit's capacity to heal and thrive despite overwhelming odds.

Childhood trauma often weaves deep-seated beliefs of worthlessness and inadequacy into our psyche, influencing our behaviors and choices. Patrick shares his compelling narrative, moving from a youth with misguided ambitions to a respected counselor in the Army. He passionately discusses confronting and recognizing trauma, emphasizing the critical need for safe, non-judgmental environments that foster healing and transformation. Patrick's insights highlight how the presence of compassionate support can empower us to face our deepest pains and find peace within ourselves.

How do religion and cultural history shape our perceptions of self-worth? This episode also takes a thought-provoking look at the struggle to maintain personal authenticity amid religious dogma. Through personal reflections and the inspiring story of Eugene, a pastor who chose community over conformity, we explore the impact of rigid beliefs on identity and emotional well-being. Discover how prioritizing authentic connections in spiritual communities can lead to genuine growth and flourishing relationships, challenging traditional structures and fostering an environment where everyone feels valued and supported.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:06

All of us reach a point in time where we are depleted and need to somehow find a way to reignite the fire within. But how do we spark that flame? Welcome to Reignite Resilience, where we will venture into the heart of the human spirit. Resilience where we will venture into the heart of the human spirit. We'll discuss the art of reigniting our passion and strategies to stoke our enthusiasm. And now here are your hosts, natalie Davis and Pamela Cass.

Speaker 2 0:41

Welcome back to another episode of Reignite Resilience. I am your co-host, natalie Davis, and I am so honored to be back with you all. I feel like I've been away somewhere for a long time, but, pam, it's good to see you.

Speaker 3 0:55

How are you? It is good to see you, and it has been, I was trying to think, the last time we were together. We usually do these stints of like being together for like days in a row and then we don't see each other for exactly because we're busy but busy doing great stuff we are.

Speaker 3 1:10

The listeners will be excited about this. So we have finished our first book and so we're in kind of the the throes of having a few select people read through it, give us feedback, and it's so funny how clear it is in our mind. But then when they read it and they're like, um, it doesn't make any sense, and you're like, yeah, you're right, we're in the throes of that, but it's a labor of love and it has been so much fun, yeah, so stay tuned.

Speaker 3 1:37

That'll be coming out this year and actually hopefully two books will be coming out, since we've already started the second one as well.

Speaker 2 1:43

So yes, it's an exciting time. It's definitely an exciting time. I know so even though we haven't seen each other and I mean we're just working on things and pushing through in the background. So that's always nice. Yeah, yeah, we are not stopping. No, not at all. We've got too much work to do.

Speaker 3 1:58

We've got the world to save and all those things. Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 2 2:06

Well, with that being said, we have a wonderful guest that's joining us today. So, pam, why don't you tell our listeners who's joining us?

Speaker 3 2:10

today on this episode Absolutely Well. This is my favorite part of doing this podcast is amazing people that we get to meet across the world, so not just in the United States. So today we have Patrick Doyle. He is a seasoned expert in emotional abuse recovery, addiction counseling and spiritual leadership. With over three decades of experience, he has dedicated his life to helping abuse survivors and those battling addiction find their path to healing and freedom. Patrick's unique approach combines practical strategies with deep compassion, empowering individuals to overcome their past and embrace their intrinsic value. Thank you so much for being here, patrick. We're so excited to have you. And let's start out with you just, you know, sharing a little bit about yourself and what brought you to this place and what it is that you do today.

Speaker 4 3:04

I'll get to that in a second, but first I just wanted to congratulate you on publishing a book. I just published my first book in October.

Speaker 3 3:10

How exciting.

Speaker 4 3:11

And so I understand exactly what you're saying. The process is not an easy one. No, I likened it to running a gauntlet.

Speaker 3 3:21

Yes.

Speaker 4 3:23

And in the process of writing my book I also this will get into my story. I was raised in a very abusive alcoholic home. My dad was a two-war veteran. My mom died when I was 10 years old on Christmas morning from alcoholism.

Speaker 2 3:39

Wow.

Speaker 4 3:40

And so I was left. All my siblings are 10 years more older than me and I was left by myself with this crazy alcoholic. So one of the things my dad used to say when he was beating me and off the cuff whenever was you're stupid. So I built an online program called Pathway to Hope, which is for women who are in abusive relationships, and particularly in faith communities. I was a pastor years ago, so I understand all that world very well. But I had already built all of the stuff that was in my book. I had already made videos, I'd already developed all the material. So why did it take me four years to write this book? Well, I'll tell you why.

Overcoming Trauma and Cultivating Peace

Speaker 4 4:21

As I was going through the process, I realized that I had all this internal resistance to working on my book. I'd rather go clean the bathroom with a toothbrush and I always found something else to do, and my editors and people around me were like you don't have to write this stuff, it's already written. We're just editing, we just need a few. And I'm like, in the process, I realized this will get into one of my story, because I believe trauma is based in messages. Yeah, my dad's beating me. What does that say You're worthless. What does that say? You're not lovable, you're the problem. Then he's saying things like you're stupid and whatever. So those messages don't just evaporate because we deny them. They become part of our ethos. Yeah, right, don't just evaporate because we deny them. They become part of our ethos, right? So I'm trying to write this book and I'm finding all this resistance and what I discovered through doing my own personal work was, if I believe I'm stupid and somewhere down there I still did I can't write a book that doesn't. That's not congruent. So as I started to, that dawned on me like, oh, this is that underlying message that I'm not. I like, oh, this is that underlying message that I'm not. I'm stupid.

Speaker 4 5:27

I didn't read my first book until I was in my twenties because I believed that and I believe what my father said. But my life since then has proven that's not true, right, but all the proof is hard to take in. People can say you're smart and we appreciate you, but that lie is so strong because it was so deeply embedded in such a time when we're young and we're impressionable and our deepest need is to be seen and to be cared for, and when that's ripped away from us, that message of your inadequacy and your worthlessness skyrockets and it becomes so deeply embedded in you. Think it's you, but it's not. No child is ever born worthless in their mind. That is something we all learn from the very unhealthy worlds we live in.

Speaker 4 6:11

So I came into this business of helping. I went to the US Army. I mean, it's a long story it would be fun to tell sometime, but I'll save it for this time. But I went into the Army and I, through a set of circumstances, I became a counselor in the Army. Okay, now just for a little back story. I started smoking pot when I was 10. And my dream in life at 13 was to be the head of a drug cartel. And at 16, I was living in my own place in Florida on my way to accomplishing my goal. So now, 18, I'm in the military and they're making me a counselor.

Speaker 2 6:45

I'm in the military and they're making me a counselor.

Speaker 4 6:46

I'm like all right.

Speaker 2 6:47

If you believe it Exactly, you know it, I'll just do it.

Speaker 4 6:53

Yes. So I spent four years in the military and got out and worked in various settings and over time I think a lot of counselors can relate to this I'm in the system, I'm working, I'm working in these settings alcohol and drug treatment, psych boards, outpatient clinics, you name it. I worked on all kinds of settings and I'm doing the work with people and then every once in a while there's my face right in front of me, like oh, that so applies to me. What they said is so what my experience is I'm like one of my core beliefs is the avoidance of pain is the beginning of all unhealthy behavior. I'm brought up in a system where you cannot, you cannot accept the pain is too much, so in an abusive environment you have to suppress. It's a form of survival. Okay, then you get out of the dangerous circumstance, like I get out of my dad's house, but I'm still suppressing. So that avoidance of pain is what created all my what I would call compulsive behaviors, the loss of control behaviors. And I see this.

Speaker 4 7:58

I don't I mean as an addiction expert. I don't believe in the disease model anymore, because I believe every addict is deeply traumatized from their perspective. It doesn't matter what anybody else thinks, because what would traumatize one person doesn't necessarily traumatize another one. Everybody's got different tolerances. So compulsion is always the result of a lack of peace, right? So if we start looking at what's disturbing the peace, people have a return to control. Once the peace level goes up, the compulsion level goes down, and when we're in a constant state of avoidance, there's no way to get peace, because nothing resolves. We just keep kicking the can down the road or adding a new strategy or a new behavior or a new distraction, whatever it is so one of my goals in being here. I strongly believe that people can have peace, but you can't have peace through avoidance and our culture and I would say also that the Christian culture are cultures that venerate avoidance. Us, you see, this systematic lowering of mental and emotional health. Avoidance and health emotionally are tied. So I realize I'm traumatized, I realize I'm abused. I got a choice I can accept that start working through the pain of that which none of us are wired to move into pain. We're all wired to avoid it. That's what we're supposed to do, but it will never produce health. So having the courage to look is part A and part B.

Speaker 4 9:25

This is really what I want to talk about is I strongly believe that no one changes without safety. Information is helpful to help. You know there's a problem, but I've seen it through all my years of counseling Like once someone feels safe. That is what empowers them to take the courageous act to look and there's such a vacancy of safety. When I say safety, I'm talking emotional, physical and spiritual. There's no judgment, there's no fixing, there's no platitudes.

Speaker 4 9:57

One of my mentors said it's really about withness, it's about being with someone, and you can't be with someone when you're busy in your own head, when your peace level is so low. Everything they say you're running through the filters. What do they think? What about me, what about this, what about that? And so that decreases a presence. And so presence to me is the key. If it's safe and that's not something people are trained in, it's something they learn you can have some training, but without you doing your own internal.

Speaker 4 10:27

Look and I've trained a lot of counselors in my day and it's rare so when I see what you're doing, you have that spirit of we want to care, we want to be with, we want to give people an opportunity. Well, that's what we need. And look, I've worked in situations with people and I've watched them take their denial all the way to the grave. Both my parents did. I have a sibling who's already done it. Some people don't get better, but a lot of people do all it. Let's go, and people who are like this. I'm not really interested.

Speaker 4 11:04

I think m scott peck really described it well in his book people of the lie and the road less traveled. I think both those books you know are really helpful in that way. But inspiring people to take the risk, to be honest and vulnerable, that changes things. Yeah, so that's kind of how I got here. I mean, I mean, I could tell you, obviously, a whole bunch of details of that story, but it's a combination of working and helping people and then working through my own trauma and all the belief structures that I had to look at and alter.

Speaker 4 11:34

A constant level of curiosity, I think, is really important instead of what I used to have was certainty, and I strongly believe that certainty whether it's religious or whatever you fill in the blank People are certain about a lot of things they have no actual facts for. So certainty is our defense against the chaos of the world we live in, whereas curiosity is way more painful because I don't know right. So having a safe community, one or two friends, whatever, where I can explore those things in safety, is what allows me to grow. But when I'm certain that I know and I can't be disturbed with you know, whatever, because this is how it goes and that was me for years. I was, you know. I have a whole hard drive of sermons that I've preached over the years. I would never say those things today that I've preached over the years.

Speaker 4 12:25

I would never say those things today. This was based in my defense against the uncertainty of the world and my defense against the pain. So the pain was causing my certainty to be more rigid, and I see it all the time. It's a great noble avoidance. I can be really self-righteous and noble while I avoid the actual thing that's killing me.

Speaker 2 12:46

Yeah, it's putting your cape on. I always say it's like, just put the cape away, we don't need to put the cape on in those moments.

Speaker 4 12:52

Exactly and listen. You know, there are moments when you might need a cape.

Speaker 4 12:56

You can't live in them. Yeah, and if I go into an endangered environment, I'm not going to be vulnerable, and I work with narcissists all the time and I would never be vulnerable with them. They're dangerous, and so that's. The other thing that I learned is like look, if I say somebody is, their behavior has demonstrated an unhealthy pattern, am I judging them? No, I'm identifying their behavior as unhealthy. And this is where I see a lot of people get in trouble. Is the behavior in their relationship is saying very clearly this person is unhealthy and they keep denying it, rationalizing it, giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Speaker 4 13:30

I talk about this in my book extensively, how to stay out of that. And you know, if you come, if you come to me and I'm a mechanic and you say, hey, I want you to fix my car, and I look at it and I'm like, hey, your transmission is trash, it's not working. And am I judging the transmission? No, it's just a fact, this thing ain't working. So I think, in relational terms, when the behavior is so consistent, that's what allows us to understand oh okay, this is that behavior. But that requires us to be honest instead of rationalize, minimize, justify, deny, spiritualize, avoid whatever, and that living in that truth is how we get to a place of health. But it's not pleasant and everybody wants the. I want the workaround.

Speaker 4 14:15

I want the peace without the pain Sorry.

Speaker 2 14:19

Give me the microwave version please.

Speaker 4 14:22

I wish it existed, I would write it down and move to Fiji, you know, but it doesn't exist, and so our willingness to be with each other in a way that's meaningful and healthy and safe, that is what changes the world, not information. I mean, we have more information now than we've ever had in the entire history of the world. How's it going? Right, right.

Speaker 3 14:44

People are more overwhelmed Correct, more uncertain Correct, more afraid, less vulnerable Fill in the blank.

Unpacking Religious Dogma and Its Impact

Speaker 4 14:52

Yeah, and I believe there's lots of reasons for that. But from my experience, one of the main ones is religion. And when I say religion, I don't mean healthy spiritual life. Okay, there's a distinction. But if I have a belief structure that says that I'm valuable, if that's based in shame, my belief structure says start with you are intrinsically valuable because you exist. It starts with value. It doesn't start with your non-valuable and then, if you jump through these flaming hoops, then you can be valuable. That's what I taught for years. So when you have that permeating or?

Speaker 4 15:30

Our culture was built on the Puritans do you know what they believed? I am very familiar with what they believed because I have read their books. I understand, and so that was the basis for a lot of our culture, which was avoidant and self-righteous. Think about the ripple effect, so, and then think about it in terms of relationships and sexuality. Puritans believed that men and women should sleep in separate beds because the only purpose was sex for procreation, what I mean. That's the starting point for the culture we developed. I know there's a lot of other people coming, but they were the main influence. So we could talk about that for days, but the truth is that does lead to avoidance. It doesn't lead to openness, it leads to looking good. You have to appear a certain way, which is murder, to honesty.

Speaker 2 17:23

Oh my gosh, patrick, I'm not sure if you have it in your schedule to spend the next six hours with us, because it's so much that I want to unpack.

Speaker 4 17:31

I do have a client at four, so we'll have to be done by then. Okay, but we can do it again. I'll make more time.

Speaker 2 17:41

We'll just have to have you back, because there's so much that you've said that I'd like us to unpack for the listeners. And I also want to come back to your story because one I'm intrigued. Yes, you've left us hanging from 16 to the pulpit. I feel like there's so much in between. So to start off what resonates with me. So I grew up in a household that grew up in organized religion, so very familiar with that piece of it and, as you mentioned, like not being able, like the self-righteousness. You kind of have to have avoidance with that right, because if you're going to appear to be quote-unquote worthy, have avoidance with that right, because if you're going to appear to be quote unquote worthy, then you have to dismiss all of you. That doesn't fit into this box.

Speaker 4 18:21

That's appropriate or okay, and then you hiding that is now also making you God's enemy. Yeah, that's a heavy thing to hold on, absolutely, yeah. So then, what's going to do? You think I'm going to be risk averse at that point? Yeah, of course, because anytime I'm exposed for who I am, it's going to end in my judgment and God's going to be unhappy. But look, I have two boys, so grateful. There's nothing that I can think of that would encourage me to torture them forever Because they believe the wrong thing, like I'm sure they believe the wrong thing at this moment about a lot of stuff, just like I do. So that ideal, like God would punish his children eternally, you know, and there's theologies that are, you know, it's not eternal, it's a cessation, but just the whole point I love you, I created you and I'm going to destroy you. Yes, yeah, oh, that's a tough one, yeah.

Speaker 2 19:23

Even for a moment, right, I mean for children. If they have that feeling or that sense for a moment, they carry that on forever, Exactly.

Speaker 4 19:30

So it's one thing if my parent says it, but it's another when God says it, the creator says it, and then when you got God and your parents saying it, that's a tough hill to climb right. And I didn't grow up in a religious home. I mean, alcohol was the religion. I had a spiritual experience at 17, and that's when I started to get sober and I got into a dangerous situation with the mobster I was getting drugs from and I was taking money from, and he threatened my life and I'm like okay.

Speaker 2 20:00

I think I found a new career all of a sudden. Yes, that could do it it was a change.

Speaker 4 20:02

And then, right after that, when I was 17, I went to church with my sister and I had a religious transformation. I got saved and that started a 30 year career. My entire career was built on biblical reality from my perspective. So I'm very familiar. Like when you say you grew up in religious environment, I mean, if you told me the, if you told me the denomination, I will know what those beliefs were, because I know what those are.

Speaker 4 20:29

So if you sit down with the Pentecostal and you sit down with the Presbyterian, you got two very different people and they are both Christians and they will acknowledge that, but they don't trust each other. And if you go to the Presbyterian church as a Pentecostal, you ain't getting no leadership, and vice versa, exactly. And the reason why is you can't sign the belief statement. So here's the deal Everybody's sitting in church and we're having fellowship. Actually, no, we're an audience, we're not talking. We're not talking, we're not sharing, we're receiving a message. And here's the deal you can only be a part of that group if you comply with the beliefs and if you don't, well, you're suspect and maybe even excommunicated. I mean, I was talking to a client the other day who was Mennonite and a woman can be excommunicated for her headdressing being off an eighth of an inch. It's love, the loving God of the universe. He loves you no matter what, as long as your headdressing is right.

Speaker 4 21:29

But just take that extreme example and put it into well, you didn't speak in tongues. Well, you didn't get water baptized. Well, you don't believe the right theology? Well, you didn't get water baptized. Well, you don't believe the right theology. Well, you wear earrings. Well, your hair's too long. Well, I mean, let's go down the laundry list of the things in religion we have told people they can't do, including have sex, the whole purity movement. Don't get me started on that, because that's a huge tragedy for women and as a guy who sat in my office and worked through with couples who did the whole thing, and the tragedy and the unimaginable consequences to this on an emotional and spiritual and relational level are cataclysmic. But it's no one's talking about it, but it's, it's been very damaging. So I am strongly encouraging people to have a spiritual life. I'm strongly encouraging them not to have dogma spiritual life.

Speaker 4 22:16

I'm strongly encouraging them not to have dogma. Yeah, dogma, this is my saying. Dogma kills love every time, and I don't care what the dogma is about you can be dogmatic about. I mean, let's just take sports, for example. Somebody is a dogmatic fan of a certain team. They will hate the other person. I'm like what we might be taking this a bit too far. I'm a huge Atlanta Braves fan. Okay, I'll admit it, but I would never hate someone. Yeah, well, I did hate the Yankees for a while, but that's another story, that's different, that's different, I've been defeated in the World.

Speaker 4 22:53

Series three times in a row. That's it yeah.

Speaker 2 22:57

That might be the thing that pushes you over the edge.

Speaker 3 23:01

It's different.

Speaker 4 23:02

Yeah, it's different, right, but my point is, you know, it doesn't matter what your dogma is. Yeah, politics. I made a documentary movie about the freshwater dolphins in the Amazon. A lot of people don't know that there's freshwater dolphins in most of the major rivers in the world Not in the Ganges anymore, because India is so polluted that they all die.

Speaker 4 23:23

But my church, this little church that I had one of the guys in the church, my best friend, was a movie maker, and we found this guy, dr Fernando Trujillo, who's the world's leading expert on freshwater dolphins and manatees, and he was also mentored by Jacques Cousteau. He's an amazing guy. He's like one of the most spiritual people I've ever met, and so I just this scene popped on my head just now. So we're on the river and we I think we're on the Rio Negro or the or the Amazon, I can't remember and we're in a little boat and we're looking for swans and dolphins and he's doing his work and you know he's a scientist and we see a dead baby dolphin and we go there and he picks up and he's sobbing.

Speaker 4 24:03

I'm like I mean, how many dead dolphins has he seen? Like thousands, and yet it's still touching him Like this is not necessary. Yeah, we can avoid this, and so the small little church I had we did this movie, which actually did amazingly well, won a bunch of film festivals. You can go on Amazon and watch it. It's called a river below, but the thing is the, the pushback we got for making a conservation movie as Christians I'm like I mean not everybody.

Speaker 2 24:31

The irony isn't that what not everybody involved was.

Speaker 4 24:34

Christian. I was saying it wasn't a Christian movie, but my church. The two guys that funded it were part of my church, and so it's like we were putting this thing into the world and I'm like that's part of the dogma thing. Like when we got down there and started doing all the work, we realized, man, this thing is way bigger than we thought, like most problems, when you start getting deeply involved, exactly. And so it was just like another example to me, like we're doing good and we're spending a bunch of money that's been probably never going to come back to us and didn't. So what's the problem? Yeah, that's what I mean by dogma kills love, it just does. And so I want to help people and listen.

Speaker 4 25:15

If you're traumatized, you have some dogma. The dogma is you're a piece of junk. The dogma is you're not good enough. The dogma is you're inadequate. And if you have that internal belief structure this is what I see all the time If someone is being self-destructive on a regular basis, I know for sure that they have a belief structure of inadequacy, because if you're valuable, it would make no sense to be self-destructive.

Speaker 4 25:36

But if you see yourself as a waste of the skin, you're printed in. Well, yeah, I'm drinking too much, whatever, whatever you know. And there are good things that you can do, like, I can be hyper-religious, I can go to the gym all the time I can, whatever. There's things that look good, that are just as compulsive as the guy who's strung out on drugs, but you know we're all going to like turn the other way because he's got, he's in good shape, but nobody around him likes him. Yeah Right, a different addiction. When I was in treatment, when I worked in treatment, I made up a joke. I'll test it on you guys. Oh, what's the difference between an alcoholic and a workaholic retirement plan?

Speaker 2 26:17

Unless they're an entrepreneur.

Speaker 4 26:20

Because an alcoholic, and an alcoholic and a workaholic are equally miserable. One just has some money, yeah that's right. And that makes them better, right? They're more successful. So they're better, they're less, they're better.

Speaker 2 26:34

It checks the box right From a society standpoint they're they're more willing, better it checks the box right from a society standpoint they're, they're more willing. You know that box to say it's acceptable.

Speaker 4 26:40

Yes, this goes back to your point about growing up in a system of belief that won't allow like no one goes to church. To be honest, let's just just be clear you gotta comply. Yes, how many times did I sit in there and I look around like who's raising their hands? Is this one of those churches, or or do you got to sit down and do you know? Whatever the thing is, you got to figure it out, but no one's talking about that.

Speaker 3 27:01

No.

Speaker 4 27:02

And the one person who goes sideways. Everybody's like whoa what happened to them yes. And thus begins the judgment.

Speaker 2 27:09

That's it Exactly.

Speaker 3 27:17

But we exactly, and but we won't say judgment, we'll say that we'll just pray for them. Yeah, so that's. Oh, yes, that sounds better, we will spiritualize our judgment.

Speaker 4 27:21

That's it. Yes, absolutely I'll pray to the lord. I mean I can't, I mean I cringe at some of the prayers I've made in my life like so well, well, patrick, talk to us about that.

Speaker 2 27:31

That area, I mean leading a church, and it sounds like it was your church that you started, so, so you planted a church.

Building Safe Community Through Authenticity

Speaker 4 27:37

So here's the story. So in my area I was on the radio for years. It was a Christian radio station, then they developed a TV station, then it became regional and so I'm on the radio and TV like every week for years, like I don't know 12, 13 years. So the reach was pretty broad. And then I'm in my office every day and I'm working with 95% Christians and I'm just seeing failure after failure after failure. Churches get involved. It's a tragic, tragic mess. And I'm on the radio and I'm taking calls about this stuff and then I'm getting emails from people that listen to me on the radio and it's like the church is just face-planting everywhere I look.

Speaker 4 28:15

So one of my mentors and one of my heroes during those days was Eugene Peterson. Are you familiar with Eugene Peterson? Eugene Peterson is a linguistic scholar and he is the guy who translated the message Okay, it's a Bible version which he took—I mean the amount of hatred he took for that was interesting. But in fact the last chapter of my book tells a story about getting to meet him and what happened, and every time I tell it I can't not cry because he was so meaningful to me. But anyway, eugene was a pastor for 30 years and he chose after he graduated from college, instead of becoming a professor, he chose to become a pastor because he realized, like, teaching in a college is not pastoring and I want to be with people. So he taught me over time like a pastor's job, pat is to be with the people, it's not to preach at them. He's the guy that taught me witness and there's an interesting story that a lot of people don't know. But he became very close with Bono Really and Bono actually I believe, based on what I know, that Eugene was like one of the only people in the world that Bono could trust, for obvious reasons, like you know, you're world famous and all that. But Eugene was very protective of Bono, spiritually, like people, because they knew Eugene, knew him and they would always come and he's like he was like a wall. You ain't nothing. This is pastoral. He's my, we're together. So he was a very caring, loving person. He's very with people and so I was watching the church fail.

Speaker 4 29:53

I was in my office every day and I was on the radio and TV and I'm like I was in my office every day and I was on the radio and TV and I'm like I went to my church. I'm like, hey, I really want to try to do, let's be with the people. I'll take my skills, I'll run a group, I'll volunteer. How can we bring this into our reality? Oh, that's a great idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah, bring it up again. Oh, yeah, yeah, nothing.

Speaker 4 30:15

They didn't want to get involved. That's the truth, based on their behavior. So I'm like, all right, I'll start a church. That's got its own problems, because you know you have to be sent out, or who's your covering, or there's all these rules. And I'm like I kind of think those are the problem, because if those people who are doing that they don't want to get involved, then they sanction someone to go do something else. It's going to be the same thing, just in a different place.

Speaker 4 30:41

I want to do something completely different and I did, and so my whole goal was for the church to be a safe place, emotionally and spiritually, and I created a very safe place and it was very successful in that way, and one of the things that, interestingly, I learned is that people don't want safety in church. What they want is for you to tell them what to do and be their leader and let you be the go between them and God. So in my church I got to the point where during my sermons I would ask questions of the congregation and actually have a dialogue during the sermon, actual fellowship, right. Because I'm like, just think about this idea like somehow I know everything, like all these brilliant people that got all these experiences in their lives, they don't know anything, they have nothing to add.

Speaker 4 31:31

So I started having there's this one girl that came and she was not all there. She's a sweet soul and she always participated. And sometimes it's like, oh my gosh, this is awkward, because she doesn't even make sense. And then other times it'd be this gem. I'm like, see, everybody has a place at the table. Everybody has something valid to say. And people would argue with me sometimes about what I had said. They're like I don't agree with that, what about this? And I'm like, well, let's talk about it. Good yeah, that's great.

Speaker 4 32:00

What I'm doing is saying this is how safe relationships work. We have to agree If we agree, that's boring. And so I had to fight with some of the other guys that I brought in as leadership. They wanted me to put a belief statement on the church website and I'm like, no, I don't want somebody going to the church website looking for my belief statement. I want them coming to church because they want to check it out and they want to meet some people. We'll get into belief statements later, but you know how it is with church. If you're going to find a church, you got to find a good Bible teaching church that has a good worship team. There's all these things. There's all these things. So like, and look, that's nothing wrong with that. If you want to do that, fine. And I said to that people in my community like, look, if you want that stuff, it is abundant here. But what I'm doing, I don't really want any of that. So everybody would come in. And there's this one guy in particular that came in. I know him from the community and he's really just rigid and you know his red face cause he's always so intense and just he's just that way. You know he's got so much stuff pent up and he's he's just intense. So one of the guys in my church knew him pretty well and he's like, yeah, I should come, and so that dude, I thought he was going to have a stroke by the end of it.

Speaker 4 33:05

I didn't do worship at the beginning. I did it at the end because I didn't want it as a warm up act for the preacher, and my belief at the time was if you're going to worship, it's going to be because you've seen God and you're responding. We're not warming you up for this service, which is what it always was to me and it always used to make me uncomfortable, like why are we doing this? So I didn't take an offering, I didn't do a lot of things because I'm like I'm not trying to do any of that. I'm trying to build a community. We don't need all of that. And the truth is that church had plenty of money. It was giving was never an issue, because people felt safe, they felt connected. And then the other thing that was so encouraging to me is relationships started to spawn from the safety they started having building out in different places, and that was my whole goal. So there's one clarion example for me that I think of is like this was a time when I started to realize it's working. There's one clarion example for me that I think of is like this was a time when I started to realize it's working.

Speaker 4 33:58

There's this guy in my church who I knew really well. He had been a, he had somebody I'd counseled before, so I knew his story. And he's talking to this other guy and I could overhear it. And I'm talking to somebody else and I'm not supposed to be listening, but I was listening and one guy says yeah, how are you doing, man? He's like oh well, and in my mind I'm like please be honest, please be honest, please be honest, because I knew this guy's story. He's like well, I've been actually, I've been really depressed. And the other guy goes and now I'm in my head like please don't give him a scripture, please don't tell him he needs to feel better.

Speaker 4 34:35

And the guy goes I'm a success.

Speaker 2 34:36

Yeah, it's a W. That's it. How come is it?

Speaker 4 34:39

relevant, just the fact that they have safety. To be honest, that's going to move them to a good place, and those guys became friends. So that was the whole motive behind that. But I learned over the long haul that a lot of religious people don't like that.

Speaker 1 34:53

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