Hidden Emotional Wounds + Resiliency with Patrick Doyle (part 2)

Amidst the complex tapestry of organized religion, many of us have grappled with balancing our true selves with the personas expected within our spiritual communities. Picture this: you walk into a place of worship, the weight of expectations heavy on your shoulders, and you feel compelled to display a "church persona" that doesn't quite fit. Together, we untangle this intricate dance of vulnerability and authenticity, where financial ties and communal expectations can sometimes stifle honesty. Through heartfelt stories and shared experiences, we explore how to embrace our genuine selves while navigating the structures of religious life. It's a journey of acknowledging the dualities of spiritual communities, where comfort and conflict often coexist.

Joining us is Patrick Doyle, whose compelling work "Death of a Thousand Cuts" sheds light on the subtle, yet devastating, nature of emotional abuse within spiritual communities. Patrick's insights guide us through the often-overlooked terrain of emotional harm, illustrating how small acts can leave deep scars. He shares his profound belief in trusting one's instincts and taking brave steps towards change, offering hope through his online community, Pathway to Hope. As we converse about his principles-driven writing and his dedication to supporting women facing abuse, Patrick's wisdom becomes a beacon for those seeking true freedom and healing. Stay tuned for more sessions that promise to tackle vital topics like addiction, drawing from Patrick's rich reservoir of experience.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:06

All of us reach a point in time where we are depleted and need to somehow find a way to reignite the fire within. But how do we spark that flame? Welcome to Reignite Resilience, where we will venture into the heart of the human spirit. Resilience where we will venture into the heart of the human spirit. We'll discuss the art of reigniting our passion and strategies to stoke our enthusiasm.

Speaker 2 0:37

And now here are your hosts, natalie Davis and Pamela Cass. Well, patrick, I think the challenge would be I'm reflecting on my own experience and, again, I spent many years going to church and if I told you the combinations and my journey to where I am right now, we don't have enough time to unpack the levels of trauma. When you're creating a safe space and you saying that the people didn't want a safe space, that rings true for me. A safe space that rings true for me because the persona that I am when I attend church is not the same persona as the person that has the struggles and the challenges and the trauma and the depression and the things that they're working through.

Speaker 2 1:16

When you show up to church, you show up as the purer version of yourself and you know I mean down to the actual act of going to church. Right, it's you put on your Sunday best. You're on your best behavior as little kids you're always taught be on your best behavior. This is not where you go to act up. You're going to be one with the Lord and then we go home and we have dinner and become our normal selves again. So to create a space where you say we want you to feel safe here.

Speaker 2 1:42

Well, which version of me the real version of me, or my church persona version of me, needs to feel safe here.

Speaker 3 1:48

I hope both of them can. And one of the ways I achieved that and I learned this the hard way One of the ways I achieved that was starting to be vulnerable from the pulpit. I just started telling it like it was yeah, because I was going to quit otherwise. I was like I can't do this whole duplicity thing where I'm feeling one way and I go up there and I'm like, oh, everything's fine. It was making me ill and I was like I just said, like what I got to lose, we're going to shut it down. Okay, fine, I just one less job I got to do. I mean, I wasn't getting paid. That was the other thing. Here's the other part of it being your financial livelihood depends on the church.

Speaker 3 2:28

You will not be honest. What are you going to be honest with the elders about? What you really are worried about, what you really are struggling with and who you're attracted to and whatever, whatever case in point Ravi Zacharias. And that's just one of 10,000, right? So I started just getting very honest and people followed suit. Some people left and people. Then some people came.

Speaker 3 2:46

So here's the thing I realized in that period of time I would never have a sign out in front of my church, everybody welcome. If you're a wolf, I'm going to kick your butt and you are not welcome. And I don't care what you say or what you think. And I didn't take money because I don't want some. And there were some rich guys in my church. I don't want some. And there were some rich guys in my church. I didn't want them thinking that they had any sort of control over me, like you can't, whatever. And so in fact it was there. It bore out to be true that I did find myself in a situation where I had to confront one of them because of their behavior, and he had nothing to hold on me.

Speaker 3 3:17

But most pastors don't have that ability. They got to keep the. Their job depends on it, yeah. And so that's what a terrible trap. You can't be honest. So the whole system, what I realize is kind of broken. If you want honesty and transparency and growth, it's not a system for that. But it has a system in it. People like it because, look, it's very popular and I mean, look, god bless them. If that's what they want to do, that's right. I don't no skin off my nose. But don't come telling me I can't do it otherwise, right, I'm not telling you.

Speaker 2 3:51

I have no disregard or ill will or ill intent for organized religion. I will have to say, though, like if it weren't for that and some aha moments that I went through in my own experience that led me to having a desire. I knew that there was more. I knew that the relationship with the creator could be greater. I knew that there was a space for me to be the true person that I am showing up in every space and from a spiritual standpoint.

Speaker 2 4:19

So if it weren't for organized religion in my life, I would have not entered into the spiritual journey that I'm on, and so my own personal opinion is that I needed to have both, but everyone's journey is going to look so uniquely different.

Speaker 3 4:31

Yeah, I don't look back at my journey and say, you know, it wasn't right that I went through all that. Look, I believe that it's exactly what I needed, without those levels of control, with the way I was, I needed it and so. So this is the other thing. In church, two things can't be true, but two things are always true for the most part, like that was beneficial to me and it's unhealthy. Both are true.

Speaker 3 4:54

And you look, you know, I have a, unfortunately, a really clear view of a lot of harm that people have experienced at the hands of spiritual leaders, and it pains me because the courage it takes to finally say something and then you get re-harmed, and the amount of time that you live in that emotional hell before you can say something again. And so one of the things I used to say all the time is like I don't believe you have the right to point out the dirt unless you're willing to wash the feet and listen. I've been washing the feet of the church for 35 years, so I got a right to say whatever the hell I want. I'm not talking about it from a didactic position, I'm talking about it because I got blood all over me. And so the courage to say something is the difference between it happening and it not.

Speaker 2 5:43

Is this what prompted you to start the group, to create the safe space for women that are in abusive relationships?

Speaker 3 5:51

Correct, because one of the things I learned was particularly in the church, because, you know, there's a theology that says women are responsible for the well-being of their husbands and there's a theology that says women are less valuable than men. So if you're responsible for your husband and he's a lunatic and you're less valuable than him, you're in a bad situation, very bad situation, right. And so I realized, oh my gosh, they can't go to church and be honest. I wanted to create a place where they could go to the Pathway to Hope forum and say whatever they wanted and they're not going to get hurt, they're not going to get judged. And look my partner, who I started it with. She manages the community. She's the one who she's experienced emotional abuse. She's been in the church, she was, you know, she's got her own scars and she manages that community because you can't not manage it. So we got to maintain safety. Well, that means somebody has to care, and so that was the whole point. There's tons of great information on there. But, more importantly, it provides women a safe place to be honest, and here's the deal. I see it all the time.

Speaker 3 6:51

Women come in and they're like they're not going to say anything because they're like I can't say anything. What if I say something and somebody finds out? And they're so fearful because they've been living under you know crazy. So they lurk, which is one of the beautiful parts of this. They can just read everything. They can read other people's stories. They can see the videos where I interviewed people and have them tell their story.

Speaker 3 7:12

They listen to the Q&As, listen to all the videos and they start taking information like oh okay, oh, okay, okay. And then they start reading other women's stuff and they start to get to know someone. They start reading other women's stuff and they start to get to know so and so that I call it a thawing process. You can't just start being vulnerable, no, and when somebody comes in, they're just like I'm, like there's another problem, like we got a whoa, whoa, whoa. You're going to hurt yourself because you're talking a bunch of people you don't even know. Well, we want to be safe. That didn't mean somebody is not going to say something sideways. So that safety, particularly for women, because a woman in a faith community will lose everyone.

Speaker 2 7:48

I've witnessed that. That's unfortunate.

Speaker 3 7:50

They will be excommunicated and the abuser will be venerated and put in a position of leadership and she's got the Jezebel spirit or she's just unforgiving or whatever crazy stuff. People say and I have a whole chapter in my book because I really think this is hugely important is that we have made a real mess of forgiveness and reconciliation in the church. When somebody in the church says forgive, what they mean is reconcile. You're supposed to let it go. You're supposed to forgive them. You're supposed to get back in a relationship with them. I go through a lot of energy in my book to talk about the difference, like if someone's harming you and they don't care or they don't own it, you have no business trusting them. Reconciliation is about trust that's been broken and if that person has zero admittance, zero behavior change, reconciliation should not even be on the table. It's not even an option, because they have not demonstrated any change. They've demonstrated more denial, more doubling down, more craziness. So the only answer for that is a boundary. Go into great lengths in that my book too. But the other thing about forgiveness is I see this used as a tool and a weapon on women all the time. Forgive him. What does that mean? Well, generally, what it means is gloss it over and go back. Okay, forgiveness is actually not about the relationship. Forgiveness is about the person who's been harmed working through the wound that was created by the crazy person. That's forgiveness. It has nothing to do with that other person, but that's not what we tell them, and so that's why I think it's so important.

Speaker 3 9:33

I talk about that, like I said in the book, because the church has really gaslit women bad in this way, like if somebody's behavior is harmful. But here's the woman. She finally works up the courage and I've heard this story. If I had it, I'd be rich. She works up the courage finally to say something to someone in the church a leader, another woman, the pastor and they say, well, just cook in more meals, be nicer, have more sex, and everything will work out. Pray for him, forgive him, whatever. And I'm like don't, do you have any idea what it meant, what the amount of courage that woman had to muster to say anything, to just open up, yeah, to say anything. I'm guaranteeing you. She minimized it when she said it, because that's what I did, because I was in an abusive relationship for 25 years. I also, while I was on the radio and TV. Being the expert, I was in the middle of it so I've denied it. So I understand that process. You can't just here. It is, I mean, because we're programmed to deny it. That's how we survive it.

Speaker 3 10:28

So the church presents a ton of hurdles that somebody outside the church doesn't have, because now you're going to be disappointing God, you're going to be sinning against him by separating, by divorcing, by saying something negative about your husband. You're not supposed to say anything negative about your husband. That's not okay. He can talk crap about you all day long, but you can't say anything negative about your husband. So I'll say this and I just really wonder what your experiences are.

Speaker 3 10:55

But I have noticed this over time the church, with the beliefs that men are more valuable than women and women are responsible for men's well-being, if they don't give them the next sex, then it's okay for them to have porn addiction or whatever that belief structure has created, the church becomes a factory for narcissistic men.

Speaker 3 11:15

And it's worse because they're spiritual narcissists, because this is the whole thing. I don't hear a lot of people talking about but the guy who's the good Christian guy and everybody loves him. He's a wonderful person. Lot of people talking about. But the guy who's the good Christian guy and everybody loves him, he's a wonderful person. He is vicious because that level of duplicity to harm the person you're supposed to love and then lie about them, and then harm them and then lie about them and let them slowly die the level of duplicity and horror that is in your heart to allow that is says that you are Olympic level denial while you're purporting this spiritual front. So and then, as a result, it also creates a factory for women who are abusable. And this is one of the reasons why I'm so excited about my book is I'm hoping I can keep talking about this, because this is not something I hear people talk about.

Instincts as Pathways to Freedom

Speaker 4 11:58

Yeah, it's not, and this is such a revelation for me listening to you talk about that. I grew up Catholic. You know church every Sunday, brunch every Sunday, catholic schools when we were young, and then I was in a marriage with a complete narcissistic man, very Catholic family. He was one of 11 kids, church every Sunday and I left the church. When I filed for divorce from him because I just didn't, I was like how can we go to church and how can you say all these things and then treat me like you do behind closed doors? And so it was one of those things where I was just like this isn't a safe. So you said no one can change when they don't feel safe. It wasn't a safe place for me and so I completely walked away from something that I grew up with.

Speaker 3 12:45

And look whether it's Catholic or whether it's Protestant. Those lies persist. Yeah, and you know the Catholics have a way steeper version of women don't have value, right, because of their long history with it. But then at the same time they like venerate women, like okay, well, which is it? But you're only venerable because you Just some not all.

Speaker 3 13:11

But it's only true because they stayed in their place. Yes, right, they couldn't get outside of their place and be venerated. That wouldn't work. But think about that, like Pam, for just the emotional cost of the duplicity that you had to live in. And this is the difference between somebody who's normal and somebody who's not. And we talk about narcissism, but in my book I don't really use the term much. I talk about it in terms of industrial strength denial. What enables someone to harm you like that is their industrial strength denial, which allows them to believe whatever they think. Facts, reality do not matter. Which is why we feel crazy, because we're living in some sort of reality. We're like trying to like make sense of things. And so that's why I say to people like well, there's no hope of changing that person. Not because change is impossible, because we're all here. Change is impossible for a person with that level of denial. That's what I call malignant denial. It's going to kill somebody.

Speaker 4 14:06

Industrial strength denial like that.

Speaker 3 14:10

Yeah, and that's what it is. And so, like people say, well, they died of addiction, I'm like, nope, they died of denial. Addiction was a symptom, yeah, but if I was still in denial about my childhood and my addiction?

Speaker 4 14:24

I, but if I was still in denial about my childhood and my addiction, I'd still be doing it, just like my sibling. So, patrick, when you talk about people can't change until they feel safe, what are ways that people listening to our podcast today can find places where they are safe, that they can have that transformation and change? So glad you asked that.

Speaker 3 14:41

So I strongly believe that your spirit, your instinct, your gut, whatever you want to call it the part of in your stomach or wherever it shows up, it's like that's not right. That's not right. So in an abusive environment, in a religious environment, we are taught not to listen to that. That is the truth being spoken. But that is the truth being spoken. So to find safety, you have to and this is the other thing.

Speaker 3 15:06

In our culture we talk about things in extreme. You know it's either or, and I'm like no, it's percentages, Like if I listen to my gut, 1% of the time I can move that to 1.5. It's a radical life change. So we're not talking about I listen to my gut all the time. That's not going to happen. Way too much training against it and there's way too much fear, whatever. So here you are, you're in your day and you're talking to someone and your gut goes dude, I don't really believe that, or that seems off. Instead of denying that, just trust it, because that's what's going to lead you to safety and then, as you take in that information, you pay attention to what your instincts are saying. That's going to help you navigate instead of well, I have to give them the benefit of the doubt. Well, I don't want to upset them. And what about this one?

Speaker 3 15:50

The whole matrix of whatever's been built from, whatever our experiences are right and it's all different for all of us. So I'm like, as I started listening to my gut, I found myself standing on the edge of a cliff looking down like, oh no, if I pay attention to this, I'm going to have to do some stuff. That looks kind of scary. I was a pastor. I was regional, you know, well-known on the radio and TV. I got a divorce. That's not right, yeah, but it was the catalyst that led me to the greatest level of freedom I've had.

Speaker 3 16:26

But it wasn't fun. In fact, during the process of that I was probably the most close to killing myself. I've ever been the rejection that I felt from people who were supposedly my family, church family, slander. That was happening. I mean people. This is a juicy story, man. It drove a knife right into my deepest wound of inadequacy, but it's also what helped me heal it, because I didn't get in, I didn't stop, I kept trusting my instincts, I kept getting up. So I think safety is not about organizing your circumstances. I think safety is about trusting your instincts and finding those places. Like you're in a swamp and you're navigating through the swamp and then, oh, there's something really cool. But the problem with our instincts is it gives us information we can't prove.

Speaker 4 17:16

I don't know. So then we're afraid. We're afraid to follow that instinct. It's like, no, that's scary, and I don't want to do something that's scary. And so here's the deal to follow that instinct.

Speaker 3 17:23

It's like no, that's scary and I don't want to do something. That's scary, right. And so here's the deal. The more you do it and I encourage these people, I talk about it in my book I go into great lengths about trusting your gut because I think it's one of the pathways to freedom. So I see with women, they trust their instincts almost instantaneously. With their kids, they don't doubt it. So I always talk about like well, if you take that, and then you just like pay attention to what you think about other people, because generally our instincts are giving us warning signs, not signs of oh, they're fine.

Speaker 3 17:51

As you start paying attention, I encourage women to start small. Just start with a little small thing. You're with your girlfriend, who you feel safe with, and she says something you're like that doesn't seem right. Just trust it. You don't have to confront it, but just trust it. You fall away like okay, instead of no, she's my cousin. Then rationalize, minimize, justify, because that's going to lead you to unsafeness, because you're denying the behavior that's telling you she's unsafe, which is going to lead you to be in an unsafe relationship. So this is the thing that I learned Every relationship has to be on the altar. And here's the funny thing that I discovered, like most of the relationships I built during my process of being in an abusive marriage and being a personality and all that and pastor I was not well, so the relationships that I developed reflected that. So there's going to be a sea change.

Speaker 3 18:38

So I've talked to a lot of people who are like, well, this is getting worse, not better. I'm like, just wait, you got to kill the. Of people who are like, well, this is getting worse, not better. I'm like, just wait, you've got to kill the thing. Like, if somebody's going to build a building, what do they do? They go and they just scrape the ground. That's the beginning of the building. You have to destruct before you construct. And so none of us want that. We just want, you know, I want you to just make it better. I'm like sorry, us want that. We just want you know, I want you to just make it better. I'm like sorry and so being able to encourage each other in that. That's why I was saying before, like what you're doing is so important, because we have no idea where this stuff's going to end up and having done hundreds, maybe thousands of interviews and I'm not interviews but youtube videos and you know that stuff's on the line. People find it at three in the morning. It's never how it's going to happen, but it's really good that it's there, because there's plenty of people putting crazy in the world, like your ex, my ex.

Speaker 3 19:33

So I want people to trust their instincts and I think this is also one of the most beautiful things about the feminine Is how instinctual they are. They're way better at instincts than dudes. It's part of the beauty of femininity is being able to have that deep sense of awareness about a soul, about a situation, and instead of it being suppressed, I want it to be celebrated. We celebrate that every time and I say this to women all the time like if you get 10 chances in a day to trust your instincts and you take one, we're having a party. We're going to celebrate that because that's movement and that's all we're looking for. We're not looking for finalization, we're not looking for overcoming, we're looking for movement, baby steps, yeah, and that's what leads us out.

Speaker 4 20:18

It's interesting because when I don't follow my instinct is when it will show up in my body, and it shows up in my body in different ways, and then I'm just like, okay, you need to start listening to your instinct because it's impacting your health.

Speaker 3 20:36

I have not talked to a woman who's been in hardcore suffering where that was not the case and many of them only started coming to awareness because of the failure of their body. That was the thing that finally kicked them into like, oh, I gotta do something, I'm dying. I mean, how many women I've seen lose their hair, have adrenal fatigue, you know, have thyroid issues? I mean because they're in constant stress. Yeah, your body's not designed to live like that. You're supposed to have moments of stress, you know, not moments of non-stress, yeah, and that's the other. Just profound injustice, I see, is what it costs women to live in that and then the other person walks away. They do whatever, but that woman's still living with those physical realities.

Speaker 2 21:18

They don't just, they just don't go away and you can't, you don't leave the environment, and then they're gone.

Speaker 3 21:22

Yeah, exactly, and it's a process, and so that's why I just want to keep talking about it, because you know maybe somebody will get out earlier and they'll have less consequences, but you know those consequences are real.

Speaker 4 22:32

Well, and the impact it also has in vitro when you're pregnant with children I mean we don't really talk about that, like when you're in high stress and you're pregnant that will absolutely impact the child.

Empowering Conversation on Healing and Resilience

Speaker 3 22:47

Yeah, and you know, I don't know if you guys are fans of Cesar Millan. I know the dog whisperer. You ever heard of the dog whisperer?

Speaker 3 22:54

Oh, yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, so he always says like look when you're walking a dog, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So he always says like look, when you're walking a dog, whatever energy you have is going to go down that leash into the dog, and I'm like that's right, but it's even more right for people. So when you talk about in vitro like that soul is not unaware of the tension, not before they come out and not, you know, after they come out, you know. So the idea that kids don't really know, I'm like no, it's affecting them. There's no way. I mean, if it was a totally happy, loving environment, would that affect them? Yeah, if it's an unhealthy environment, yeah, the environment affects them, period. It doesn't matter what it is. So the intensity level, though, is so high. You know, I've spent many years working on it and I'll keep working on it. It's just amazing.

Speaker 2 23:44

Well, patrick, you've made reference to your book. I'd love for you to share again with our listeners the title of the book, where they can find it and where they could find you. Yes, death of a Thousand Cuts.

Speaker 3 23:57

Yes. So see this picture. Yes, the roses. A thousand cuts. Yes. So see this picture. Yes, the roses. You see the counter, the knife on the counter yes. So when I talked to my artist, I said I want to have a cover that explains the whole situation in one picture. So you got the roses, and so nice and so lovely, but there's a knife on the table. And so my thing is abusers have a Bible in one hand and a knife in the other, and it depends on what they want as to which one they use, but they're going to use them both. Most people can't understand that. They think, oh, he's a Bible guy, he will never do that Wrong.

Speaker 3 24:30

So death of a thousand cuts is what I think of when I think of emotional abuse, because it's not one thing, it's a thousand times of somebody gaslighting you, somebody undermining you, somebody telling you you're crazy, somebody telling you that you don't see things right, that you're too sensitive, that you're unforgiving. If somebody showed up in my office with a black eye, I'm like okay, let's go, we can deal with this. Generally, women show up looking good. Generally women show up looking good. But if somebody showed up and they had a thousand cuts and they're bleeding to death. We would all like oh my God, we have to do something. That's what I want people to realize. Oh my God, we have to do something. That woman is dying of a thousand cuts from the person who says they love her, why I pray for you, over why I had a pray for you. You know, I still get angry at the injustice of it, particularly when it's covered up in spiritual communities and women suffer for decades. So death, a thousand cuts.

Speaker 3 25:35

You can get it on amazon. You can go to my website, patrick doylelife, and that's where you're going to find. That, basically, is where you're going to find all the information for pathway to hope. So that's where you can sign up. That's where you can get information. You can see what it's about. You know that kind of thing. There's a couple, two videos up there and stuff. So pathway to hope is a community for women only. Just, you know. Obviously we want to make it safe and if you really want to know what's going on with me when I'm going to be on other podcasts I'm working on some other stuff too Go on my website and sign up for my email list and that will keep you in the loop. Yeah, and I still do private coaching. I mean, I still have some spots available for that. So yeah, that's pretty much it.

Speaker 4 26:21

I love it. Any final thoughts for our listeners?

Speaker 3 26:24

Trust your gut. Trust your gut and then you have the ability to take one small risk, because there's no change without that risk. Find some support and start moving. Let's not waste any more of your life's energy on harm. Let's start spending energy on making you well. Get the book. It'll be a good primer, because the book doesn't come from college, the book comes from it's not theory only.

Speaker 3 26:52

There was no theory. Yeah, and one of the concerns I had in writing it was, you know, in an emotionally abusive situation I know you guys know this there's so much nuance. So when somebody says here's the truth about emotional abuse, you're like and then you apply it to yourself. I'm like that's dangerous, because I don't know that circumstance, I don't know what her assets are, I don't know anything. So as I struggle with it, one of the things I realized I'm going to talk about it in principle. These are principles. They do not necessarily apply to you, but if they do, great. Instead of here are the three things you need to do. So it's a labor of 30 years of love, beautiful, yeah. So when's our next session?

Speaker 2 27:33

I was going to say, well, I asked if you had the six hours, so, but we would love to have you back because I think there are so many things that we didn't have an opportunity to dive into, and one of those areas is an addiction, and we've had quite a few guests in the past that have battled and overcome addiction, and just your perspective on addiction is completely different from what we've discussed on the show before, so we would love to have you back to dive into that as well, as well as continue to share, you know, the great things that you're doing with your work, because you're doing some amazing things in the world, so thank you for that.

Speaker 3 28:09

I appreciate. I appreciate you guys as kindness and your sensitivity and your welcoming spirit. I felt very comfortable and I am. That's not always the case. I can tell that you both are beautiful souls.

Speaker 2 28:21

Well, it was an honor to have you, so thank you, and thank you for being vulnerable and sharing and creating that space for others as well, creating that safety space for others as they're going through their journey. We will make sure that we put all of your contact information in the show notes, but in case anyone didn't catch it, all of your contact information in the show notes, but in case anyone didn't catch it, patrickdoylelife is the website that will get you everywhere. I would highly encourage you to subscribe to the newsletter so that you can keep tabs on Patrick and what's going on in his world.

Speaker 3 28:46

Yeah, I'm going to be doing a series of webinars here in the next couple of months that I think people would be really benefited from. Perfect, Okay. So what's the name of your book?

Speaker 4 28:56

Perfect, okay, so what's the name of your book? Oh, it's a series of book Reignite Resilience, one story at a time, oh, cool. And so the first one is the Worth Within, and so it's kind of my story as a child, through college, and so, yeah, so we're just doing several books on resilience, and so there'll be one on my marriage, there's going to be one on Natalie's life, there's yeah, so we're just so you're telling the story.

Speaker 3 29:25

Telling the story that is so powerful. That's way better than teaching something, yeah.

Speaker 4 29:30

Yeah, a little glimpse inside.

Speaker 3 29:32

Yeah, it takes a lot of courage. It does. It's scary, yeah Well, particularly when you're telling story and other peoples are in it.

Speaker 2 29:41

Exactly.

Speaker 3 29:44

Exactly, they might have a feeling about it, you know? Yeah, that's awesome. I look forward to seeing that when it comes. Are you guys going to do audio version?

Speaker 2 29:53

Probably we haven't even crossed that bridge. We're getting through. And then a mini series, right exactly once we can get through editing, let's then let's have a conversation.

Speaker 3 30:05

I feel like we're in the, the thick of it if I do it again, I will probably not release my book until the audible's ready. Yes, okay, just because the audible part is just so profound nowadays. Are you guys doing an ebook too? Yes, yeah, do not skip the ebook. I was shocked at how many people buy ebooks. Yes, yeah yeah, I didn't. It wasn't a thing for me. So I was like my editor was like you should do it, but I'm like who buys ebooks?

Speaker 2 30:31

I'm like he's like a lot of people. I'm like a lot of people. Yes, people love their devices.

Speaker 3 30:36

Yeah, and now and now, so many people listen to books, they don't even buy them. Yeah, that's me, it's a whole, and you know, telling your story is you're going to read it. Well, I don't know if you get to that point, but I would highly encourage you to read it yourself. Definitely will read it. That's awesome. Yeah, that's exciting. Thank you guys, thank you.

Speaker 2 30:55

Thank you, patrick, absolutely. Thank you so much for your time and for our listeners. We'll make sure that we put Patrick's contact information in the show notes for you, and if you want to learn more about what's happening in the world of Reignite Resilience, you can head on over to reigniteresiliencecom. Until next time, we will see you all soon.

Speaker 1 31:10

Bye everyone. No-transcript.