Finding Your Nerve + Resiliency with Amira Barger (part 2)

What's the real cost of being "nice" in a world that demands it? Amira Barger joins us for a transformative conversation about breaking free from the harmful constraints of niceness to embrace what she calls "nerve" – the courage to speak truth, set boundaries, and challenge broken systems.

Amira shares a powerful childhood story that perfectly illustrates the communication disconnects we experience daily. She introduces the matching principle, explaining how misaligned conversation types (practical, emotional, and social) create friction in our interactions. This framework sets the stage for understanding why niceness, though seemingly harmless, actually taxes our humanity, dignity, and voice.

The heart of our discussion explores practical tools for developing nerve without sacrificing kindness. Amira's creative journal exercise offers a simple yet profound method for perspective-shifting and challenging "sacred cows" – those untouchable rules, leaders, and habits we're taught never to question. This intentional pause creates space for reimagining how we communicate and operate in the world.

We dive deep into the nuances of self-presentation, where Amira offers a refreshing alternative to "authenticity" with her concept of the "chosen" or "aligned" self. This strategic approach acknowledges that not all spaces equally reward authenticity while still honoring our core values and boundaries. It's about claiming autonomy over how we show up rather than contorting ourselves to meet others' expectations.

For anyone who's ever felt the weight of playing nice at their own expense, this episode offers liberation and practical guidance. Amira's forthcoming book (releasing October 28, 2025) promises to expand on these concepts with relatable stories and actionable strategies for practicing nerve in everyday life.

https://amirabarger.com/

Thank you to our sponsors: 

Casa Sagrada 

Taste Life Nutrition

Ciudad Maderas

The Quiet Gift: A Journey of Self Worth and Resilience is now available for download as an audible.  Check it out!

Transcript

The Cost of Being Nice

Speaker 1 0:06

All of us reach a point in time where we are depleted and need to somehow find a way to reignite the fire within. But how do we spark that flame? Welcome to Reignite Resilience, where we will venture into the heart of the human spirit. Resilience where we will venture into the heart of the human spirit. We'll discuss the art of reigniting our passion and strategies to stoke our enthusiasm.

Speaker 2 0:31

And now here are your hosts, natalie Davis and Pamela Cass 30 years later, I would learn and I'm'm looking at it because it's up here. Charles Duhigg wrote this book Super Communicators and he did an amazing TED Talk on it too, and one of the things that he wrote about in there is something called the matching principle, which I use as a communicator today. So, very quickly, there are. The matching principle, you know, purports that we typically have three types of conversation. One is a practical conversation, focused on solving a problem or making a plan. Emotional conversations about sharing feelings and seeking empathy. And social conversations, that's on connection and identity. And that day, little nine-year-old Amira was having a practical conversation because I'm a September Virgo. Like, if you want your head to feel better, your head hurts. Don't get those grades.

Speaker 3 1:31

Stop doing this Exactly. There's a solution here.

Speaker 2 1:35

I was solution oriented, and so I said what was true and what was a solution in my mind. But the twins were having an emotional conversation. They wanted empathy, mind. But the twins were having an emotional conversation. They wanted empathy and in my little mind I could not fathom how saying something like oh my God, I'm so sorry, your head hurts, was useful. That wasn't useful.

Speaker 2 1:53

I wasn't going to say that. I even wouldn't say that today I'm still very much me, and so you know I learned some things through the years that I knew. You know what other people might be able to benefit from understanding what is the cost when we have to play nice and what are some things we might be able to do differently and move through the world differently, to practice the antithesis of nice, which is not mean. That's what people always go to. But I talk about the antithesis of nice in this book as nerve and is so many things. It is disruption, it is challenging, it is having the audacity to do the thing or say the silent parts aloud that need to be said, because truth is what will fix broken systems and what will set us free, not our silence, not plain nice.

Speaker 3 2:42

I love that. I love that when you, when you made the point of identifying that nerve, is the opposite, right, like that, I think that that was a big piece because for me, when I hear that, really in woven into that word, or the nerve itself, is like courage, right, like being having the courage and the confidence to really be able to still say the thing. You may fall into one of those three types of conversations, but still saying the thing and creating and honoring those boundaries. Because, again, niceness will have us in a space where we're saying yes to things that we really don't want to say yes to all for the sake of being nice.

Speaker 2 3:22

That's right. It keeps us stuck. Progress, change, moving forward, you know, niceness sort of promises, solution, without actually delivering it. Nerve is what will get us there.

Speaker 2 3:33

And you know, I think, particularly women in a US context there is a commitment to comfort, not just women, I think all people in the US. We have this commitment to comfort, and nerve tends to make people uncomfortable just because of how we've been socialized, like, oh, you know, that's not something you say out loud or oh, we can't talk about that here. You know, there's a discomfort and I've always been comfortable with discomfort, like from the time I was little, like little Amira was comfortable. I'm comfortable now, and that's not everyone. And that's what I hope this book does is to help more people understand that the momentary discomfort is worth experiencing as opposed to the long-term discomfort of progress and change being stopped and not happening in your workplace, in your home, in your community. And so our obsession with comfort, likability, affability, our obsession with comfort, likability, affability, playing nice, is a problem, a social construct, and it's not harmless, is what I'm purporting in my book. It's not harmless to just be nice, to just play nice. It costs many of us quite a bit to be nice.

Speaker 3 4:40

Yeah, what are some of the things that cost people?

Speaker 2 4:43

I think it costs you humanity. Like to go really deep with it. I think that's true. I think there's a tax on human dignity and all of our humanity. I think it costs you your sanity. It costs you your voice, right? There's so much contorting that we do and I think women especially understand this to make sure that we make everyone else comfortable before we speak our truth, live our truth, ask for what we need, truly what we need, and that's a betrayal of self in many ways and I think that that's too high a cost and I'd really like us to stop paying it. I think we will all be better off for practicing more nerve, and you can do it in a kind way. You can do it in conversation and in community with people.

The Matching Principle in Communication

Speaker 2 5:31

It takes the right tools, which is why I wrote a whole book about it. Like, yeah, this is like any muscle. You've got to work it out and not everyone has those tools. I didn't always have those tools. This book is an unpacking of a lifelong of learning of. Here are some of the tools that helped me and maybe they'll help you, and there are others who I think can offer different tools, and I wanted to spark a conversation for people about the tools they've also learned to unpack nice and to stop betraying their needs themselves and, ultimately, all of us. Would you be willing to share one of the tools with us? Yes, my favorite one the creative journal. I got to talk to Natalie about this one because it really was so transformative for me.

Speaker 2 6:18

So I've always been a journaler since I was little. It's actually ridiculous, like this stack that both of you can see behind me is a bunch of notebooks. I have one in my car and my work bag, all over the house, all over the office, you name it. And in 2013, I was a part of an executive team and we had a consultant come in to help us with our brand new strategic plan multi-year strategic plan and we had gotten into this place of letting a lot of sacred cows live. And what's a sacred cow? Right? It's the rules, leaders or habits that we are taught in the workplace to not challenge, not change, not disrupt. It's things that we norm, so we just collectively agree to and just kind of let go. And so what this consultant did was she asked us to keep a creative writing journal, and we all rolled our eyes and snickered and sneered. We did not want to do it. The idea of a work diary really set us off, but we complied.

Speaker 3 7:17

We were. I'm sure it's like everyone's like we are seriously busy enough and we've got bigger fish to fry.

Speaker 1 7:23

That's exactly that's exactly what we said Almost verbatim.

Speaker 2 7:25

That's exactly what we said almost verbatim it's like you were in the room, natalie and so she asked us to keep this creative journal and to take several steps and actually give people the exact instructions I was given. Because what it did, the point of the journal, was to help perspective shift. It was to give us an intentional pause to reimagine the things we were doing, the things we were saying and whether or not there was a different way. And that's also how you debunk sacred cows, right, this is how we've always done it, or conflict would be too risky. So let's not bother to try to change this thing. Right, we have to perspective shift of. Well, what if disrupting or changing that one thing could actually make us better or more efficient or faster or more money, whatever the thing is you're going towards? And so she asked us at least one entry every day briefly describe something that you observed but hadn't noticed before. So it could be something like the way the leaves rustle or fall from a tree, literally anything. One day I wrote down you know how the water trickled out of the faucet just random, just observation. She also asked us, over the course of four weeks, to commit to a few observations, like week one look for good systems and processes. So an example of a good system that you observed in life could be an indie pit crew. You're watching TV, you're watching a NASCAR race and you're like, wow, that's really efficient how they do that. In under five seconds they can change a tire and get the driver back out on the road. They're working together. Wow, interesting, or maybe a bad system. Maybe the way they call out coffee names at your local coffee shop over the loud music. You might not hear them. Maybe that's a bad system, maybe there's a better way.

Speaker 2 9:11

The second week she asked us to note things that you can do this year that you couldn't do three years ago. How have you changed? How has your world changed such that there's something new, a skill, a process that you're engaging in that you maybe couldn't have done three years ago, maybe because of physical ability, because of money, because of geography, whatever the reason. The third week she said deliberately go somewhere or look at something you don't normally and write down what strikes you. Maybe it's an art museum, a weird TV show, a magazine you wouldn't typically read. And then the last week she said combine one of the observations or insights from your journal to one of the sacred cows that we have in our organization. So it was a really powerful exercise and it's something that I noticed while I committed to. Initially, we committed to four weeks and now I've been doing. How long has it been since 2013? More than 10 years.

Speaker 2 10:06

I've been doing it for a lot of years now, and then what I noticed is it's something that becomes innate. These are questions that I ask to myself innately. These are things that I no longer need. The prompts in the journal that I just think of when I'm starting a new project, when I'm managing a new person, when I'm leading within an organization, is I think about these things and these questions. And I have a perspective shift because I know how to intentionally pause, ask a series of questions and to consider maybe the way we've always done it is wrong, maybe the way I think we're doing it is wrong, and maybe I need someone else's ideas to help me be the indie pit crew versus the coffee barista, right, and so that is one of my favorite tools that I still use today and I tell people.

Nerve: The Antithesis of Nice

Speaker 2 10:55

It doesn't have to be a physical journal. I'm very analog like that. I like to write on paper. You can do it in your app, on your notes phone or for other people. Like I said, a lot of this I now do in my head, just innately. You can also just practice these things in your head as you move through the world and through organizations, and so I think it's a simple tool. But sometimes the simplest tool in answer is the one that will create the biggest change. And I tell people, when I ask you to practice nerve, it doesn't have to be this earth shattering, revolutionary, turn over the tables, throw the tea into the water kind of moment. Sometimes it's something as subtle as asking one more question. I do that as I'm in this board meeting. You know what I'm going to do today to practice. I'm going to ask one more question than I would have. Let me just ask one more insightful question or prompt something to continue a conversation. It can be as subtle as that. That is also practicing nerve. Love that.

Speaker 1 11:59

I think that's huge.

Speaker 3 12:00

Well, and something that you mentioned, amira, when you talk about the sacred cows and it doesn't matter if it's in your corporate space, if it's in your place of worship or church there are sacred cows everywhere, they're all around us. But when you mentioned that it's people as well, or leaders, that are also seen to be sacred cows, like that was an aha moment for me and I thought, oh, like norms and practices, yes, like we've always done it this way, but when it's an individual, like speaking to it from an individual, being a sacred cow just absolutely blew my mind, because I didn't put individuals within that space. I think I just settled in as that being the norm. Right, like that's how so-and-so behaves, or that person will lead the company until it closes down, or whatever. Like right, that's, you just kind of accept it as it is, but those are sacred cows as well.

Speaker 2 12:50

They are, and what I'm hoping people will get out of the tools that I'm offering is, I call it just the pause, the pause of saying, oh, you know, this happened to me the other day. I had hacked. Actually I only downloaded TikTok. The pause, the pause of saying, oh, you know, this happened to me the other day. I had actually I only downloaded TikTok in March. I told Natalie this the other day because I refused. I was like I don't need another thing to log into to do. It's too much. But you know, my publicist said but you've got a book, you've got to have TikTok.

Speaker 2 13:14

So I got it and one of the things I did is I went and followed, you know, this creator and there was something about this person and their, their rhetoric and the way about them. I had a pause, but not enough to not follow them. But there was something in my brain and I didn't immediately catch it. But when I went back and saw someone else say something about the ways in which they were problematic for me, what it did is reminded me of my own tools, the ways in which they were problematic for me. What it did is reminded me of my own tools I was like I had the pause.

Speaker 2 13:43

You know what, when I clicked follow on them, I did and I didn't listen to that gut feeling and sometimes you do it in retrospect and that's okay and I still have those moments today where I was like, wow, no, that that person's problematic, I cannot follow them, like I do not align with them, like go unfollow. And I did have the pause. There was something in me that said ask more questions here. This is, this seems off and even I have to remind myself to use these tools because that's how deeply ingrained just playing it nice, just status quo, going along to get along, is ingrained in us is. You have to teach yourself to have the pause and I think this journal and so many of the other tools I offer in the book will help more of us practice and work out that muscle of having the pause.

Speaker 3 15:23

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, we were all raised be a nice little girl. Yes, sugar and spice. How many times did we hear that? Yeah, all the time, all the time. And you spoke to being seen and not heard. That was absolutely a thing, and I think that's just a thing for all September Virgos. Like that's impossible, it's impossible for us.

Speaker 2 15:44

I was trying to box us in, that's not work. It does not work. We're going to break out of the box, exactly.

The Creative Journal Tool

Speaker 3 15:52

Absolutely, absolutely no-transcript and honor and uphold what other people need or expect from us, even though it doesn't align with who we are or what we want to do or even our belief system, because you talk about that like what we believe and what we do and how we we show up. What are your thoughts on that piece of it? Because I think that's a big piece when we really think about the fact that we're sacrificing ourselves, when we're being nice yeah, I think I have a a different perspective than what I've heard others say about this.

Speaker 2 16:51

I don't like authenticity. I don't like that word. I don't like authenticity. I don't like that word. I don't like the well, I like it in general, but I don't think it can be true for too many of us in this world. Here's what I mean is that authenticity isn't equally rewarded or even similarly safe corporate spaces, right? And so I actually talk about four different selves, not in the book, this is not in the book, but this is what I talk about in general and maybe I'll write an article about it now, because you've given me the idea.

Speaker 2 17:25

But I talk about. There is the authentic self, that's who I am. There is the chosen or aligned self, the who I show, and then there's the automated self, that's who I default to. And then there's an aspirational self, who I'm working towards becoming, and for me, I most often practice the chosen slash, aligned self. I went with an A because I like alliteration, so they all start with A, but C, for chosen is also aligned. That's who I show, right and who I am.

Speaker 2 17:57

In a corporate space versus a community meeting, versus my daughter's PTA meeting versus in a place of worship might be very different, and that's not faking it and that's not being fake.

Speaker 2 18:09

It is strategic, and sometimes it's strategic survival, because not every space will fully accept all the authenticity of who I am. But my chosen self is how I prefer to talk about this. I want spaces where we can each choose how we show up and choose to show which elements of our identities and our lives and who we are in ways that are honoring to us and make us most comfortable, and I think that that's a really important pause and reframing for people in a world that is inequitable and in a world that doesn't know how to honor everyone's layers of identity, whether you are disabled, lgbtq+, a woman, woman, black, hispanic or otherwise. Chosen self or aligned self is what I like to show up as most often, I am fighting for a world where maybe my daughter will be able to practice her authentic self, the truest, rawest version of who she fully is. Yeah, and I think so many of us are fighting for that, but it's not here yet.

Speaker 3 19:19

Well, a key piece that you said there, amira, is that it's that authentic version that makes you comfortable in that space. I think that, again, it's the introspective. It's not I'm showing up this way for everyone else, it's for you and the comfort in that you just blew my mind. I never thought about authenticity that way. But okay, now I have something else and I love that. Chosen or aligned self. Yeah, I love that Because then you're in control, you get to decide.

Speaker 2 19:50

That's right. That's right and that's really how it should be, and I even talk about this in how I present nice versus nerve is I tell people sometimes I'm practicing nerve at a two on the dial, sometimes it's a 10 on the dial or 20 if you really upset me Right, so it just depends is I get to decide where that dial is based, on, what space I'm in, how safe I feel and with whom I feel safe in any particular space, and that's important. That's the autonomy piece that we talk so much about right.

Speaker 3 20:23

Love it Love that I love it. Is there anything else from the book that you want to give us a little teaser on that we haven't touched on yet.

Speaker 2 20:31

Oh, there are. I'm a storyteller at heart. I can't help it. I grew up on an island where we always said talk story. My husband's family is from the deep south and if you know anyone from the south, they just talk in stories. They're telling you about their favorite biscuit recipe and two hours later you know.

Speaker 2 20:46

So there are so many juicy stories. Natalie got to hear a fun one yesterday about a day on Capitol Hill is ingrained and burned into my mind, so you know you're going to have fun with it. There's a lot of pop culture references that will make people laugh, because this is hard work. It's hard work as much as it is head work to move from nice to nerve, and I want you to have some fun with it, because life's too short not to smile and to laugh, and so you're going to get a lot of fun stories from my experience in corporate, in non-profit and just as a woman in the world, and I think it will give people something to relate to, because I think there are so many similar stories where people will. It will be illuminated for them.

Speaker 2 21:31

Oh, that's why nice is not harmless and that's where I might need to do something a little bit different. Yeah, I love that. And when will the book be released? October 28th is launch day. It's available for pre-order now, but it will physically be in your hands and in bookstores on October 28th, 2025.

Speaker 3 21:53

Yes, I will be ordering one.

Speaker 2 21:55

Thank you I appreciate the support and, yeah, I can't wait to hear what you both think and how it is for you, right? I think everyone's reflection will be so distinct, based on your own life and experience, and I'm excited to circle back to you both and find out. Well, how did it land for you?

Speaker 1 22:13

Oh, I can't wait.

Moving Beyond Authenticity

Speaker 3 22:14

Absolutely. I do want to let you know. I know that you said that your target audience may be women the majority of the people that have reached out since yesterday's presentation, to me at least have been men, just to let you know.

Speaker 2 22:31

I think it's a message that is expansive. Yeah, I think we all do it, and I think if more of us understand nerve, not only can we practice it, but we can receive it right. There's that piece too of these spaces have to be safe, which means you need to be ready to receive nerve as much as you practice it, and so we all need this book. Yes, agreed.

Speaker 3 22:47

I love it and it's available on all platforms. I ordered mine on Amazon. Barnes Noble Penguin House.

Speaker 2 22:54

Bookshop. If you have your favorite indie or local bookstore, absolutely, you can also request it at your local library. So if you want to go that route as well, you can request your local library to have it on hand so that you can go check it out at the library for free. That's amazing.

Speaker 3 23:11

I love it. Amira. What's next? What? Do you have on the horizon? What are you working on?

Speaker 2 23:15

Well, the book tour Now it's all about. I'm hoping to have more conversations like this digitally live and in person, maybe on stages, you name it. I want people to be in conversation with me about this book. Right, I did all the work of writing it. Now I want to talk with people about it. I want to hear how it impacted them, how it landed for them, so I'm going to be all over the place. I hope we're planning right now to go all over the US and have conversations about Nerve and how we're all going to practice more N nerve.

Speaker 3 23:47

I love it. That's amazing. I wish you the best of luck as you're on tour. In terms of last advice for our listeners, any tips. I think we've given them a lot. We've unpacked quite a bit. I now have more things to reflect on in my own personal life. So, selfishly, thank you, but anything else that you want to leave our listeners with.

Speaker 2 24:08

You know it's interesting. A girlfriend just asked me this the other day and every day before my 12-year-old leaves I say to her and my husband he usually drops her off don't do anything I wouldn't do, which isn't much. And I send her off with that as a way to say go out there, try be brave, ask hard questions, ask more questions. So to your listeners I would say don't do anything I wouldn't do, which isn't much.

Speaker 3 24:35

Oh my gosh, be brave, be serious. I love it. I was like that is the opposite of what we would have heard growing up, right.

Speaker 1 24:44

Yes, totally, and that's why, I do it.

Speaker 2 24:47

Yeah, don't do that, don't do anything.

Speaker 3 24:49

Call me when you get there Exactly yeah.

Speaker 2 24:52

But she is prepared for the world. Right, I've done what I need to do. I'm still doing it and preparing her, and I want her to try and to be brave and not to be afraid of the world, because I grew up as a person afraid of the world, afraid of other people, because I was told everything else will harm you, but not being quiet, not being nice, not being small, and so I want her to do the exact opposite. So don't do anything I wouldn't do, which isn't much.

Speaker 3 25:19

these days, which isn't much. I love that. Oh my gosh, I'm trying that out on my kids. Exactly.

Speaker 1 25:26

I love that, oh my gosh Am.

Book Release and Final Thoughts

Speaker 3 25:27

I love that. Oh my gosh, amira. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm continuously inspired by you. I'm excited about the book. Just to give the listeners like background, amira and I don't really know each other. We've never met in person. I came across her profile as she talks about TikTok. I came across her profile on TikTok and she was giving a message, a talk or I don't know. There was a reel about Nice, the Price of Nice, and I felt like you were speaking to my soul and I said I need to reach out to this person and we need to connect and bring her on the show. And I want to say thank you for saying yes, thank you for having the conversation with me, because I've enjoyed all of the conversations that we've had up to this point. It has been an absolute pleasure. I'm honored to have had the opportunity to connect with you and hopefully soon in real life, like I realize.

Speaker 2 26:15

Yes, yes, well, likewise now you're stuck with me, so thank you for reaching out, and I can't wait till we do something again together. Again next, exactly.

Speaker 3 26:24

We'll find you on your book tour, don't worry, at the top of my invite list, yes.

Speaker 2 26:30

Perfect If you're in.

Speaker 3 26:31

Colorado. Let us know we will come.

Speaker 2 26:33

Beautiful.

Speaker 3 26:34

Yes, we will bring our tribe with us. If you're in Colorado, we will bring all of us. Yeah, we'll come out in full force.

Speaker 3 26:40

I love it Well, amira. Thank you for our listeners. We will make sure that we put Amira's contact information in the show notes, as well as links to purchase the book. Again, you can find it at your favorite bookstore and request it at your library. I think that's great and that way other people can pick up the book that don't have it on their radar. And then, if you are looking for more information about what's happening in the world of Reignite Resilience, you all know head on over to reigniteresiliencecom. Know head on over to reigniteresiliencecom. And if you've not subscribed to our think letter, that's something that you're going to want to make sure that you do so that you can get more of the back behind the scenes and feedback and reflection from Pam and I about our episodes that we have here with you all. Live Until next time. We'll see y'all soon.

Speaker 1 27:19

Bye everyone. Thank you for joining us today on the Reignite Resilience podcast. We hope you had some aha moments and learned a few new real life ideas. To fuel the flames of passion, please subscribe on your favorite streaming platform, like or download your favorite episodes and, of course, share with your friends and family. We look forward to seeing you again next time on Reignite Resilience.