Rebuilding Life After Divorce With Mediation + Resiliency with Joe Dillon (part 1)

A better divorce starts with better decisions. We sit down with Joe, a seasoned divorce mediator and finance pro, to unpack how couples can end a marriage without burning down their futures. Instead of letting a stranger define “fair,” Joe shows how to bring control back to the table: build a realistic budget, map parenting time with intention, and negotiate support and property division with eyes wide open.

We dig into the four pillars of divorce—parenting plan, child support, alimony, and property—and why three of them are really money conversations in disguise. Joe explains how courts of equity can feel unpredictable, how biases sneak into decisions, and why mediation gives you a faster, clearer path to outcomes you can actually live with. Along the way, we talk candidly about the emotional costs of litigation, the whisper network of friends who mean well but make things worse, and the power of seeing your numbers on paper before you fight over them.

What sets Joe’s approach apart is the blend of financial rigor and emotional coaching. His team keeps conversations calm, uses proven communication tools to stop unhelpful patterns, and helps both people focus on what will matter in ten years, not ten minutes. If you care about protecting your kids, preserving your wealth, and recovering your peace of mind, this conversation offers a practical roadmap from crisis to clarity.

The Quiet Gift: A Journey of Self Worth and Resilience is now available for download as an audible.  Check it out!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

All of us reach a point in time where we are depleted and need to somehow find a way to reignite the fire within. But how do we spark that flame? Welcome to Reignite Resilience, where we will venture into the heart of the human spirit. We'll discuss the art of reigniting our passion and strategies to stoke our enthusiasm. And now here are your hosts, Natalie Davis and Pamela Cass.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Welcome back to another episode of Reignite Resilience. I'm your co-host Natalie Davis and I'm so excited to be back with all of you today. And joining me is your co-host, Pam Cass. Hello, Pam. How are you?

Immunity Hacks And Vegas Humor

SPEAKER_01 0:52

I am good. We were just talking. It's kind of a cold season, and I'm coming off of a conference and I'm fighting a cold right now. So I'm gonna move through this. My resilience is gonna like kick in right now, and I'm just gonna be resilient through this podcast today.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Absolutely. Well, you know what? I think that's a good, this is a good time of year to remind people to take care of themselves because that is something that um the more we spend time with other people, if we're not conscious or intentional about it, we can pick up things that we don't necessarily want to pick up and bring home with us. And I'm I'm one of those people. So we do take a product. We are not doctors. So you check with your physician if you're good before you take it. But we do take a supplement for health and wellness that I introduced Pam to, and it's called doctor's best immunity support. It's just a ton of vitamins and supplements that a ton of vitamins in a supplement that you can take that's it's supposed to boost your immunity. And you said that you doubled down on it. You're like, I'm doubling up. I'm gonna see people.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

I doubled it going to the conference and then while I was there, because I'm like, when you're in Vegas, you don't know who's licking what. And it's like you don't want to touch, you don't want to touch anything. I don't I like use my elbows to do the you know the buttons in the there's still stuff floating around.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

And oh my gosh. Hey, Vegas, if you pick that up as your new tagline, we'd like royalties on that. You're welcome. Give us a call. Forget the what happens in Vegas tagline. It's you don't know who's licking what. Welcome to Vegas.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Who's licking what's so just don't touch anything if you oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Yes. Well, I I didn't know we were going there on the show.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

We never know, we never know where we're going. Um it's somewhere fun.

Meet Joe: Divorce Mediator

SPEAKER_02 2:40

So somewhere fun, exactly. Well, with that, we do have a special guest, and I I want to make sure that we have ample time to dive in. I'm excited to visit with this person today. So why don't you share with our listeners who's joining us?

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Absolutely. So today we have Joe. He is a pioneer in divorce mediation who has been helping couples navigate the end of their marriages with dignity and financial wisdom for over 17 years. As the co-founder of Equitable Mediation Services, Joe combines his MBA in finance with specialized training from Harvard MIT and Northwest University to guide couples towards agreement that protects both their emotional well-being and financial futures. Perfect topic. And I'm so excited to dig into this. Having gone through a divorce, I am super interested in this topic. And so welcome, welcome to the show. And yeah, share with us a little bit about yourself and kind of what got you where you're at today.

Private Mediation Versus Court

SPEAKER_04 3:44

Well, thanks for having me. Uh just to clarify, I have never licked anything in Las Vegas. So I just want to put that out there for the record. You know, just exactly all good. Other cities I can't, I can't promise, but Vegas, absolutely not. Vegas for clear. So good. Oh my goodness. Well, anyway, uh, you know, thanks for having me. Yeah, I have um I have an interesting role as a divorce mediator, you know, helping people end their marriages without the destruction of a litigated attorney-driven divorce. And been doing this a long time. I've been mediating 28 years, which is terrifying to say when you start thinking, well, am I really that old? Okay. And uh in private practice, coming up on 18 years. So I've been doing this for a long time and really just try to help people get through the divorce process without it becoming a disaster. And really, like what you all talk about, what we think about, you know, in terms of resilience. We want people to know that a divorce doesn't have to be the end of the road. It can be a new beginning as long as you look at it that way, right? You have to take a look, what happened, where did things go, what was my role in it, and how can I use this to turn over a new leaf and move forward. And I I really, that's what I loved about your podcast. It's just talking about those things that, you know, this, you've still got the rest of your life, right? You hopefully we're all gonna live a really long time. And I want those to be great years for the people we work with and you know, right in line with what you all are talking about in terms of resilience, moving forward and and you know, just shake it off and move on forward, you know.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

In the process, are people coming to you that already have attorneys or they don't have attorneys, they've just been court-appointed to do the mediation?

SPEAKER_04 5:25

Yeah, great question. So we are private mediators, we do not handle any court-appointed mediation. And that's that's funny, you know, you said that, Pam, is because there are some people who go to court, they try to litigate. And in most states now, you do have court-ordered mediation. With court-ordered mediation, you've already entered the legal process. You've most likely retained attorneys. We've found at least at that point, people really aren't in the mediation space. They really aren't in the mood to negotiate. So we try to cut them off at the pass, if you will, before they've retained attorneys, before they've entered the court system, and then they work with us privately. And then after they're done with us, then they enter the court system simply for the administrative part of the divorce, the filing, getting the paperwork and moving through.

The Four Pillars Of Divorce

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Okay. And so your process is a little bit different because not only do you mediate the end of the marriage, but it's the financial piece of it too, which is oftentimes either kids or the financial piece of it are probably the two biggest parts of a divorce for people to go through. So I'd love to hear a little bit about what that process looks like.

Law, Fairness, And Judicial Bias

SPEAKER_04 6:30

Certainly, not to be cute about it, but when you think about divorce, there are four main topics. You have the parenting plan, child support, alimony, and property division. Three of the four of those are financial. And I've never had, well, I have had clients say this, but when they say it, I usually retort with something different, or they say, Well, I want what the law says I'm entitled to. And I look at them and I say, Well, what if what the law says you're entitled to isn't good enough, isn't enough, won't let you buy groceries for your kids or buy a new car or survive. Why don't we talk about what it is you really need? Let's talk about what really makes sense. And that's where having a finance background, you really people are afraid of numbers. I noticed math is not people's favorite subject. I want it's mine, but it's not everyone's. And so I try to bring that sort of layperson's mentality and say, look, sure, we've got a guideline here in this state. And here's what it says let's take a look at a budget. If what you get, does that really meet your needs? It doesn't look like it to me. Let's talk about what you really need. And we we take them through this process where we show them the whole with support, with property, with assets, with liabilities, with parenting time. What does this whole thing look like? Because a lot of times what happens, people will come to us and say, Oh, we have it all figured out. We're gonna sell the house. One of a thousand things that you have to think about, right? So we try to get them to think about big picture. Yes, we always say we mediate in the shadow of the law, we can't ignore it, but we want to make sure that we give people realistic settlements, ones that are gonna let them not only survive, but thrive as they rebuild their new lives. And that's a that's a big difference. Litigation, you know, you're leaving the decision up to a judge, and the judge is gonna decide however they decide. Whatever that means, I don't know, but it might not be good enough for you. They might follow some statute or some law or some guidance, or they woke up on the wrong side of the bed today and they decided you look like the guy who cut me off in the parking lot. Boom. You know, a lot of people don't realize that. Judges are humans, they're gonna do what it is they want to do. In mediation, you have the ability to negotiate what works for you in your own unique situation so that you'll be okay. You have the best shot at recovering and being able to move forward, not just what the law says you're entitled to or having to something. So that to me is really the power of mediation.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. And you and you bring up an important piece. Like as you're talking about your work, one thing that we talk about within the real estate space, especially as it pertains to some of the biases that we bring to the table, is what they reference to as that fairness paradox, right? Where we believe in justice and fairness, but yet our biases and our stereotypes often interfere with our actual action behavior and in a judge's instance decisions, right? And what they bring to the table. You could wear an outfit that that judge, you know, their spouse wore or their former spouse wore that triggers that, right?

SPEAKER_04 9:29

Absolutely. You know, it's funny, Natalie. You bring up a good point in that when we watch TV. So I'm a big fan of the CSI and the crime dramas, and you know, with commercials, 44 minutes, because it's really only 44 minutes of TV with commercials, and you watch 44 minutes of a show, and in 44 minutes, they've identified and captured the perpetrator, tried them, and they're riding in jail. So it's great. It's pretty easy, 44 minutes. So people think, well, if I go into a court, that's exactly what's going to be happening. In less than an hour, I'm going to be found just and correct and right and in the right, and I'll get everything I asked for. The big difference a lot of people fail to realize is that when you see those TV shows and when you think about crime, that's a court of laws. So we all know, I think it's pretty safe to say, we all know it's not cool to kill somebody. I'm pretty sure we're all on that page, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:22

You're all on the same page, yes.

SPEAKER_04 10:23

We're good. That's good. We've established a good good bar here. We know what's right, what's wrong. When we get into family, when we get into the whole divorce situation, that's a court of equity, not a court of laws. Meaning, whatever the judge thinks is fair, whatever the parties think is fair and equitable. Well, when I work with clients, I remind them, for example, I'm an only child. So as long as I get everything, I think that's fair. That's that's my mantra. Hey, I didn't have to share. I didn't have any siblings, right? And that could be the mentality of that judge. That judge could look at you and say, like you said, well, you know what? I don't like your haircut. Yep, you get to keep the house. And that happens, and people lose their minds thinking, like, wait, that's not fair. Well, that's what the judge thought was fair. So instead of leaving it up to them, bring that control back in into your world, into your space, and you all decide what's fair rather than leaving it to that stranger. That's that's really a great point. We all have our own biases, our own things that we bring to the table. We just can't help it. And they show up every single day in how we act and react and negotiate.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Yeah. So if you're able to going the mediation route is going to be so much more equitable for a couple than it would be for going through a court.

SPEAKER_04 11:36

Yeah. Yeah. Cause who knows better what you and your kids need than you? That's what I thought. I got, you know, stranger who met you for 15 minutes in a courtroom and has like thousands of cases they're probably dealing with. They they want you out of there. No disrespect to you, but they just want you to go, right? Figure your adults, figure it out on your own. Absolutely.

unknown 11:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Joe, how did you find yourself in this space? What led you to becoming a mediator?

SPEAKER_04 12:03

Oh my goodness. I was not on a playground as a kid. I can tell you that going, hey, yeah, isn't that one of the jobs?

SPEAKER_02 12:11

It's like doctor, teacher, lawyer, mediator.

Joe’s Path To Mediation

SPEAKER_04 12:13

No, this is no, yeah, cowboy, astronaut. Not on my list. Yep. No, man. Well, I was working in a company and I had worked for large publishing companies in my corporate days. And I was what was known as the director of sales administration. So in my role, I had the sales department and I had the legal department. And what we were doing is we were selling these large publications, large subscriptions to these multinational corporations. And so here's how it would go salesperson would go in, make the deal, want the deal to close. I want to get my commission check. I gotta go, go, go. Can we just sign this thing today? It's Friday, the month is closing. Legal department is like, hold your horses. We have to read the contract, we have to scrutinize over all the commas, make sure there's not a period out of place or a T that's not crossed, and we're gonna drag our feet for six months. I'm in the middle with the salespeople yelling at me, Come on, Joe, I got to make my numbers. And the legal department going, hold your horses. Meanwhile, the customer now is like, Listen, you guys, I would like to give you lots of money. Would you like lots of my money? If you can, please figure it out amongst yourselves. So I found myself in a weird way mediating between the customer, the salespeople, and the legal department. And I found that I actually enjoyed that role of being somewhat like the neutral. Like, we know we want the deal to happen. We want to get the salesperson paid. We don't want to give away something that's gonna harm us. How can we all work together to find the true win-win-win? And after I was doing that for a while, I really kind of enjoyed that role. Flash forward, you know, our company, we had some downsizing, buy, you know, there was a buyout, corporate buyout, I got downsized. I'm thinking, what am I gonna do here? And I'm actually having lunch with my mother-in-law. And she says, you know, I have a friend who's a mediator. That sounds a lot like what you are doing. It's like back in 2006 or 2007. And she's like, maybe you should talk to her. And I'm like, oh, okay. So I talked to her, and she was working with a police union in Jersey City, New Jersey. And she was that person that you always see on the news where the negotiations are happening all night, and there's the people sitting across from the table, and she's the one in the middle trying to get everybody to agree. And I'm like, that looks really exciting. So I thought about that, like that kind of, you know, that sort of mediation. And then I really kind of flashed back. As you may know from reading my bio and and from our website, my parents litigated their divorce. So I was a kid, dragged on through my high school years. I sat in the back of the courtroom, the classic, you know, all the cliches that, oh, this isn't going to happen to us. Yep, happen to me. You know, my parents, they argued so much. I never saw my dad again after I saw him in court when I was 15. That was the last time I ever saw him. And that really just became a natural extension. It was, it almost found me in a way, right? That I was mediating. Then all of a sudden, I realized I have this background, I have this story. And in a way, I can use that to kind of heal some of my own traumas and try to right some wrongs that happened and help people avoid what happened to me. And while I won't say that what I do is is happy, like I'm not planning a vacation or an anniversary party for someone, I do really feel at the end of the day, the changes and the things that I'm doing for families, helping them prevent that destruction has that ripple effect. You know, you throw that stone in the pond and it ripples out and the number of ripples, so their kids and their kids' kids will not be impacted the way I was. And it really, boy, oh boy, what a 2020 in hindsight kind of thing. Yeah, this is wow, this is exactly what I was supposed to do. And so it all just came together, and here we are doing it so many years later. And it's very rewarding. And it's it's one of the most difficult jobs, but definitely a job I love. And and really when I work with clients and finish them and get them to a place where they they can still be friendly and still be at their kids' graduation and still talk to each other. That's a that's a good day in my book, despite the marriage ending. So yeah, so really twisty turny kind of, but here I am. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

I see families that I know that have gone the mediation way versus gone the litigation way, and it's totally different outcome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Oh, if you can do that, gosh.

Emotional Costs And Co-Parenting

SPEAKER_04 16:37

Yeah, and the outcome's the same. Like, in other words, you're divorced. That's the outcome. Now, how you get there, I could drive from California to New York on back roads or highways. There's all different ways I can get there, but at the end of the day, I'm gonna go from California to New York. And we look at people and tell them it's fraction of the cost, it's a fraction of the time, it's the same net result. And I've had situations where a quick story is I had a client couple, very wealthy couple, and they were very nice, but they they were of the mind, I think both of them were of the mind that they were getting the short end of the stick, whatever end of the stick they were on. And I told them, I said, Well, you know, I can't tell you what to do, right? I'm a neutral third party. But what I can tell you is that what I'm seeing here is within the scope of what I see in cases like yours. Okay. It's not like you're paying a dollar in alimony when most people pay 20,000. Like, okay, that yes, I'm gonna raise my hand and say there's something's awry. They went away, they each retained attorneys. I happen to know the attorneys, so they called me in to try to mediate with the attorneys. So there's five of us now. And and it was going back and forth, back and forth, and and then they continued on the path with the attorneys. They went away. I didn't hear from them. I was kind of like, what a bummer. Yeah. I'd say that nine months later, I got an email from the husband apologizing to me. And he's like, he's like, you know, Joe, I just wanted to say on behalf of both of us, we're sorry. We should have listened to you. The amount we spent on the lawyer, on our respective lawyers, I think it was about 50, 5, 0,$50,000 on one issue. And the number that we came up with in mediation, I think was I want to say it was like$250 different of the alimony, monthly alimony. You know, this was a wealthy couple, so the numbers were big, but in the scale of it, it was a small percentage of the number, right? And the math would not have worked out. In other words, the duration, they spent more on the legal fees than they got on the alimony number, right? And it was like, they're so nice people too. Like they just got crazed. Their friends were whispering, you know, like, what are you doing that for? You should got a lawyer, you got to protect yourself. And then at the end of the day, they were like, gosh, we should not have done that. And of course, I'm not gonna say you're right, you shouldn't have. Yeah. Because I really felt for them. They were super nice folks and they just fell into the trap. They fell into the into the clutches of the system, into the whisperings of their friends and family. They listened, and then that was it. And then that was they were done. Right. So so that's that's part of it too. That's kind of a caution for the listeners is that yeah, you could get more, but you could also get less. And you could spend a lot of money to get less. And it might still not be what you wanted. So mediate, right? That's kind of how we say give it a shot. If you're not happy, you can always retain attorneys, but I'd rather you come see us first.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Yeah. Well, we know that from our industry, the whispers of the families and friends that will literally destroy transactions and of course.

SPEAKER_04 19:46

Because suddenly they're professional real estate agents, they're lawyers, they're doctors, they're sure. You know, it's not like I've been doing this for 25 years, right? You know, sure, you're right. You're you're absolutely right, you know, whatever, you know. And it's hard.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

And they too are like watching this the television series that you're seeing, right? So in 44 minutes or even in 30 minutes, they're looking and they're like, no, I this you deserve so much more, and I'm here for you until you get it, you know, and$50,000 later.

SPEAKER_04 20:15

Exactly. Yeah. And we're all mad at each other. And then we all now it's all burned, everything's burned to the ground, right? And you say to yourself, you know, look, there's a financial cost. I'm a numbers guy by nature, I understand that. But there is an actual bigger cost, and that's the emotional cost. Certainly there's numbers and math and all of those things, and child support and alimony or you know, credits on real estate transactions, but how good would it feel for this to be over? How good would it feel for you to move on? Right. And and people haggling over in your world, our world, you you look at them, you say, 10 years from now, is this really gonna matter? It's gonna matter if you let it matter. If you keep killing yourself over this one last detail, you're gonna be mad and angry for years, but you just move on and let it go, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Well, and it also impacts the relationships with kids, with the the two of them. I mean, trying to co-parent after going through a nasty litigation as opposed to being able to talk through a mediation is just yeah, it impacts it hugely.

SPEAKER_04 21:18

Yeah, kids want their parents there, they don't care that you're not husband and wife, right? To to them, you are mom and dad, or dad and dad, or mom and mom. That's all you are. And so they don't care what what all is going on here. They want you at the soccer game or the graduation or the wedding or whatever it is, and and to not have parents. That's unfortunately what I see sometimes somewhere along the way, and and I don't know because I kind of feel swindled on this, is we became adults, right? And now we have to be responsible and pay bills and you know, right, do the right thing, and you know, all those kinds of nonsense, right? Right, you know, but your kids are looking at you to to act like that, and you need to. And a lot of times, you know, you'll get people in a divorce situation, they forget that. They'll they'll act like these impetuous children. And your kids are counting on you, they need you to be the adult. I know it's hard, I know you're not happy about it, I know this is terrible, I get that, but I need you, they need you to step up and bite your tongue and just say, yep, we're gonna do this. And I want what's best for my kids. I want to put them first. And if that means being sitting next to your ex uh in the audience at the dance recital and waving, that's what it means, right? You don't have to like it, but you have to do it. And that really is the key takeaway. We try to keep the temperature of the negotiations much, much cooler so that there aren't hurtful things that are being slung around in the process that you're not sitting there stewing over once it's over. And that's another, I really think that respectful communication piece really is a key component of mediation.

Coaching, Communication, And Boundaries

SPEAKER_02 22:51

So well, Joe, you've talked about a couple of things. You've given us so many nuggets, but one thing that really stood out to me is at the very beginning, you kicked off letting us know that when we're looking at the process of going through a divorce, it's not just the ending, but the realization that it's also a beginning, right? So getting from that point of seeing the end of something and then having an opportunity to create what the next season, next chapter looks like. And then you now you talk about respectful communication. It sounds like beyond the mediation itself, that there's a lot of coaching and guidance that is also happening with your clients per se. What does that look like when you have, you know, maybe two people that it's not as simple as the couple that you shared, but you they're just not on the same page, but they decided to go through the route of mediation to begin with. How do you show up in that space to help get them to that respectful communication? And the ultimate outcome that everyone is looking for is that, you know, the successful divorce. What do you do to get them there?

Being Neutral And Getting To Agreement

SPEAKER_04 23:48

Yeah, a couple things. So, one thing that's a a little unique about us, my actually my wife is my business partner and she's a divorce coach. We work together and we don't see clients simultaneously in the sense that we're not all in the meeting at the same time. I'm always working with clients one-on-two. So I always have both spouses with me at all times. She, on the other hand, is working with clients one-on-one. And so she works with them confidentially, I work with them confidentially. And together, we can help at least bridge some of those communication gaps. So she might have, I might have a session, it didn't go well. That person schedules a coaching call with her, they vent, they, and she says, okay, what pushed your buttons? What can we do to keep you calm in your next session? Helps with that. So that's one huge piece that really helps. And that I think is a differentiator of how we practice. We do try to look at it holistically, right? We look at it tactically, financially, and emotionally. And the emotional piece is a big one. More specifically, though, you know, to that question, Natalie, is in the mediation space, there's techniques that we can use as mediators. So, for example, as you would imagine, you know, sometimes things get heated. And in a weird way, we have a saying in mediation, and it's a saying that mental health professionals also use, where they say, don't get in the box. This couple is in a box. They're trapped in their cardboard box. They've been in this box for a while, yelling and screaming at each other. You might be an observer of the box, you're standing outside the box, you might be right next to the box, but never get in the box. So, right. And so we don't get in the box. But what's happening is they're almost because their communication has been so dysfunctional. I look at them as children, that they've reverted back to these childlike lizard brain, I'm gonna stomp and clomp and until I hold my breath and get my way. And they're looking for you to be parental or judgmental and say, you're right, you're wrong, and this and that. And when I don't do that, they start to realize that it's falling on deaf ears. And so that's one way that we kind of like you know, when kids throw a tantrum, sometimes you just let them freak out. They're gonna tire themselves out eventually, right? That's like little kids who are gonna, I'm gonna hold my breath. Great, good luck with that. Well, I'll be done. You know, right? Yes, exactly. You know it's not gonna work, they don't know it's not gonna work. So that happens. The other thing is we also can use that with active listing, quiet listing. So that's another thing. When people are really amped up, a lot of times I'll start so tell me, okay, so tell me why do you feel that way? And uh it's amazing how people reflect and mimic your behavior, right? If somebody gets amped up, you get amped up. If they calm down, you feel calm. So doing that, leaning in, listening to one person and ignoring the other one while they're shouting, and you know, just saying, Oh sorry. You know, Natalie, could you repeat that? I'm so sorry because I couldn't heard you because Bob was yelling really loudly, and I had a hard time hearing you, and I genuinely want to hear you. Please repeat that. Thank you. And that kind of starts sending signals to each of them that this is not okay. And and that's your way of being parental and controlling it. Now, the other advantage I have is people know what the alternative is. And as you're getting to know me, and as clients get to know me, I take my profession and my job very seriously, but I'm also a person and a straight shooter. And I will say flat out to people, I say, you know what? Say, guys, listen, based on what I'm hearing, it doesn't seem like mediation is gonna work for you. Now, when we hang up, I'm gonna walk my dog, maybe pour myself a glass of wine, have dinner with my wife, watch a program, put my head on the pillow, and I'm gonna, I'll think of you fondly, but I'm gonna rest easy knowing I did everything I could to help you move forward. You, on the other hand, are in for two to three years, two to three hundred thousand dollars in legal bills, and probably hating each other and your kids hating you for the rest of your life. So what are we gonna do here, right? And let's see, here's the grenade. We pull the pin out and hand it to you. Yeah, and that really does really get their attention because I think they're just posturing for the other person because that's that dynamic tells me that's been a push-pull where somebody pleads and cajoles and the other person gives in. Yeah, and in this case, they're the one pleading with me and I'm not giving in. And they're realizing it's falling on deaf ears, and it's like fine, we'll fine, we'll keep going. Okay, no problem. And it's I know okay, then I just keep moving on. And once you keep doing that enough, people start realizing that this isn't gonna work, and we're just gonna move through the process and and um and we're gonna get on with it. And then whatever they do after, that's up to them. I really do hope they go to therapy and get counseling for their anger, for their issues, or for whatever it is. But in my space, that's that's not acceptable. And that's how I, between Cheryl's help and the and and the way I communicate and not get in that box and and engage with them, that's really how we help them understand that your dysfunctional pattern that you've been probably doing for 10, 15, 20, God only knows how many years, that doesn't play in my world. And so I'm a professional, I'm an adult, so are you, and we're gonna act like it. And it sounds a little obnoxious. And I apologize if it comes across that way, but I have to be somewhat of the disciplinarian, in addition to the cheerleader of rooting them on and help saying you can mediate, you can do this. So I wear many hats in my role, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

So when they contract with you, so it's included the sessions with Cheryl, your wife.

SPEAKER_04 29:19

She's optional, but yes, if they they want to work with her, they can, or they can choose not to. We don't hoist her upon them. Of course, me, you have to work with. I'm the mediator, you have no choice. But sometimes folks have therapists already, and if they do, that's that's great. And I'm like, you know what? As long as you've got somebody to talk to, because men are famous for this, and I can say this, you know, as a guy, you know, guys are stoic and they're fine, and everything's I'm fine, you know. And so leave it alone, you know, that arm will grow back. Don't worry, you know. Rub some dirt on it, it'll be fine. I got some dirt right in there. And so that's it. You want people to just understand that this is devastating as much as you might have gotten to a place where. Maybe people are amicable. You know, maybe they're at a place where I see this in a lot of the long term, what we call the gray divorces, couples married 30 years. These folks, they're already separate. They raise their kids, they're both respectful to each other. They just want different things in life. And they go their separate ways. And even though they're coming across as really cool, you have to recognize you spent your life, like 30 some odd years of your life with this person. That's gonna hit you like a ton of bricks eventually. So talk to somebody about it, process it, and so that you can, you know, dust yourself off, shake it off, and again move forward and rebuild, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Yeah. So your your job really is kind of like that guide that just guides them through the process. And sometimes you have to, and we and the same thing in our our jobs, is sometimes we have to tell them the the honest truth, and sometimes they don't love it. But no, we have to do it.

SPEAKER_04 30:53

Absolutely. I say, look, you might not like what I have to say, but you'll always respect what I have to say and appreciate it. And at the end of the process, you could you will both appreciate this. When I have clients, and when we start, and even our very first meeting, probably even before they become clients, I'll say to both of them, I want you to know right now it's a neutral third party. It's my job to help you negotiate an agreement. And at the end of the day, if both of you are slightly annoyed with me, I have done my job perfectly. That means I've gotten you to give something, and I've gotten you to give something, and you've you got and you got and you gave and you gave, and I've annoyed you sometimes, and I've annoyed you sometimes. But at the end of the day, we got to an agreement you both find fair. And they laugh, and then at invariably, nine times out of ten, when we're done, they're go, you know, in session three, you really pissed me off. But I'm glad you told me that up front because I was really angry with you. Oh, yeah, in session two, you were bothering me. It's like, oh, good. So you and two, you and three, good. I did my job. Both of you check, yes. Right. And it's true because you want them to know that I'm not on anyone's side, I'm on your collective side, the family unit, the couple, the whatever it is. And that and they they don't fully understand that until you get into the negotiation, and then they start getting the point of oh.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

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