From Bipolar Cycles To Creative Breakthroughs + Resiliency with James McKenna (Part 1)

Ever felt your spark flicker and wondered how to light it again? We sit down with artist James McKenna to trace the real, unglamorous craft of resilience—how a childhood shaped by volatility, a life with bipolar depression and emerging BPD insights, and years of creative trial and error forged a voice in steel and stone that people can’t ignore. James doesn’t trade in tidy turnarounds. He builds them, one welded choice at a time.

We walk through the moments that mattered: recognizing a nine-day mood cycle and how criticism can wound or wake you depending on the day; facing a year of nightly tears after a broken marriage and turning that bottom into a place to observe, learn, and take one small step up; and embracing mentors who refused to flatter. When a director called his work “trinkets for walls” and another mentor said a favorite piece “looked like something made to look like art,” he chose to listen. The result was a surge in growth, a new body of work, and a deeper understanding that honest, specific critique can be a handrail when the mind is noisy.

James also opens the studio door to the “dream world” of making—where time slides, focus sharpens, and steel’s stubbornness forces clarity. We talk about art as a vessel for pain that viewers recognize in themselves, the realities of galleries, pricing, and scale, and how to give artists feedback that truly helps: say what moved you and why. Along the way, we swap stories about fragile highs, caffeine-fueled focus, and the practical rituals that help when the ground feels thin.

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Transcript

Opening And Host Banter

SPEAKER_00 0:06

All of us reach a point in time where we are depleted and need to somehow find a way to reignite the fire within. But how do we spark that flame? Welcome to Reignite Resilience, where we will venture into the heart of the human spirit. We'll discuss the art of reigniting our passion and strategies to stoke our enthusiasm. And now here are your hosts, Natalie Davis and Pamela Katz.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Welcome back to another episode of Reignite Resilience. I am your co-host, Natalie Davis, and I'm so excited to be back with all of you today. And of course, joining me is your co-host Pam Katz. Hello, Pam.

SPEAKER_03 0:53

How are you? Well, I'm still a little giggly because before we even got on with our guest, you were telling a story about getting the emissions test done on your car. And I was laughing so incredibly. It's made my entire day. And I think you need to give a really high level of that story because everyone has been in that space where they're like, oh no, tell me this isn't so. And I have to get out of my car.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

I would be happy to. And you know, here's the thing: it's it's one of those moments where you just go through your day. I looked at my agenda. I knew what I had to do for the day, right? Like my schedule for the day. And I had an afternoon workout that actually would wrap up right before the emissions testing center closed for the day. And so I got the little notification that my car registration was due and I needed to get an emissions test this time. And I don't remember the last time I had an emissions test. And so don't come after me, Colorado emissions people. I don't know how frequently you're supposed to do it, but I don't recall getting out of my car the last time I went through. So I actually do hot sauna exercises. So I am typically drenched in sweat whenever I am done with my workouts. And when I say drenched, I mean literally. And so I get out of my workout, I head on over to the emissions testing place, and there are three or four cars in front of me. And I'm sitting there and I'm on the phone with my daughter, and I see a gentleman get out of his car, three or four cars up. And I said to my daughter, Oh my gosh, why did that man get out of his car? What is he doing? Maybe he left something in his trunk. And I just dismiss it. And the we are the line of cars start to go up, and the next person gets out of their car. And the stress and overwhelm that I have, and let me just let you know, the only exit is through the emissions testing court. You have to go through the garage. And so I am now freaking out because I am drenched in sweat, barely dressed. Like I am only dressed for a final workout. And I pull up and the gentleman comes up to the car and I open my door because I'm already freaking out. And I open my door and he looks at me. He said, Does your window go down? I said, it does. And so I put the window down and he goes, I just need to know your mileage. I said, okay, sure. And I give him the mileage. And I said, and anything else? He goes, just leave the car, the keys in the car. And I sweep my head around and I said, I had to get out of the car. And he goes, Yes, ma'am, you do. I said, okay. He said, you can just go and have a seat in this waiting room. I said, I'm not sitting on anyone's furniture anywhere. I cannot. Oh my gosh. It's one of those moments where I thought, you just drive, it's drive through. So I thought you would drive.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

No, no, no. And I was trying to explain to you. I was like, no, remember how they have it like set up on the on-wraps, and you that's the only time you drive through and get an emission done.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

Well, that was the only one I was prepared for that day. So that was my embarrassing moment. I got some side-eye looks from all of the technicians. And you know what? I passed. I'm good. It's fine. And the next time you have to have it, you'll probably forget again. I will forget again. I'll forget again. Anyways, all of my embarrassing moments to the side. We have an amazing guest that's joining us today. So I want to dive right in so that we don't miss a moment. Pam, why don't you uh let her listen to it? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 4:19

Absolutely. So today we have joining us James McKenna. He is an artist who's had challenges with bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder for most of his life. Relationships have failed, careers didn't pan out, and recurrent depression is just awful. Over time, he's recognized patterns in building anew after each. James's art comes out of his rough times. Welcome, James. We are absolutely honored to have you with us today. And yeah, share with us kind of your journey. I mean, you've had quite a journey to deal with multiple disorders.

Childhood, Abuse, And Sensitivity

Living With Bipolar And BPD

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Yeah, it has. It has been. I didn't used to go back into the past because you know there's a lot of pain in the past. But I just learned about this borderline personality disorder thing like a few weeks ago, not long, like moments before I sent to you, I'm sure. And then I started reading about it, and it's like all of a sudden, you know, yeah, this is me, this is me, this is me. It's not a pretty sight, you know? It's not a borderline is a tough one. So that is part of my life now, and that's part of what I want to talk about. I I guess I'll start kind of at the beginning with my uh with childhood. I don't want to just like, you know, I am born. It's not like that. That's not the significant parts of your childhood that you that you remember. I was apparently a very sensitive child, and I was kind of put through a ringer by my dad. He was emotionally abusive and he drank a lot, and it was just very rough on me. And I'll be really clear, I do not blame him because he he he had his dad and his dad had his dad, and no blame. And I I cared for my dad the last 10 years of his life. Not a problem, not a problem. But this is the fact of my life. This is what happened to me. So he wanted me to be something special. He wanted me to be, he wanted me actually to be in the Olympics at 16. Wow. So I was a figure skater and I was getting pretty good. And he was uh sending me to uh competitions, and I wasn't doing real great. I was pretty good, but I wasn't, you know, real good. So that was a big disappointment. So I went through this kind of round after round of, oh, you know, you're gonna you're gonna make it, you're gonna be in the Olympics. Oh, you know, you you dumbasses, no, this is not gonna work, you can't be this way. Uh and so I'm I just constantly built up and torn down, built, built up and torn down. And I began to be afraid of him. So, you know, because I I was like the focus of his anger. That just made my life kind of a living hell. Believing my home life was not good. So that was how that's kind of how it got formed as an adult, living with as a bipolar and borderline personality disorder. I find that I am highly sensitive to people's moods and feelings. I I again, I'm a very good uh I was in advertising and I used to do all the presentations of the creative to people, and I would come in. I could read a room and I could tell when somebody was getting bored, I could tell when somebody was, you know, getting amped up, or you know, I could read it well, so I can do that. But then I become insensitive to people's moods and feelings when they interfere with what I want. It's like interesting. What do I do with this? So learning that about this BPD has been a very valuable thing. I wish I'd known about it before, because it's like now I know what I'm up against. You know, and once you know what you're up against, you can begin to take action. And I am doing that, though, I'm noticing every day. I notice, oh, wow, I was pretty irritable there for no reason. And that's one of the things too. And I I know there's one of the things is being selfish, and one is one of my things that I'm generous. And you know, I I I give things away, I don't have a problem with that. But in the moment, I'm like, I'll take the last brownie, you know. I'm like, I'm like that kind of guy who's like, oh, I'll take that. That's my you know, that's whatever. And yet, you know, it's just a back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. So that is the difficulty I have with BPD. So the resilience has come with uh facing the downtimes. After a marriage years ago, I had a very bad downtime. I behaved badly, and I spent a year when uh I would get home from work, I was working in the agency, I would work at work at the agency, had a fine good day, did everything with everybody, did the presentations, whatever needed to be done. I would come home, put my stuff down, sit down, and cry. This was a year I did this, and it was just all the regret, all the wishing I had done it differently, and I just couldn't, you know, I couldn't deal. And so that's kind of what I had to deal with at that time, and I learned from that. I learned what it's like to be at the bottom again. I'd had a previous marriage that had failed, and I was at the bottom there too. And I could observe myself, and I wanna I want to go in later to a not a not a system exactly, but a a way I have come up with to use being at the bottom. So that's the kind of the positive thing we're gonna get out of this.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

So, James, would you share so the personality disorder you just learned about, kind of before you had reached out to us, but the bipolar, was that something you were diagnosed with as a child, or was it something that showed up later?

SPEAKER_01 9:30

And it shows up pretty much when you're a young adult, and that's when it showed up in me. What I was dealt with bipolar depression. So I'll be down for a lot, and then I'll be super up, and then I'll be down for a while. And I had a time in my life when I was super up for months at a time, and it was just bad news for everybody. Just bad news all around. So yeah, but that's that's typically a a teenage uh early adulthood thing. It doesn't seem to be in children so much.

Hitting Bottom And Learning Resilience

SPEAKER_03 9:59

Okay, interesting. And so you would have these absolute highs. Were there certain things that triggered you to create the lows that you noticed?

SPEAKER_01 10:09

I think being criticized a lot, that hurts. That hurts me. But when I'm super up on a super high, it just rolls off my back. You know, it's no big, no big deal. But if I'm at all vulnerable, you know, in my vulnerable moment, that can start to really bring me down. So yeah, it can it can be triggered. Mostly though, it's you know, the the downtimes can be long and everything, but generally it's a cycle. I'm on like about a nine-day cycle. I'll be up for about seven or eight days, and then I'll be just like, it's all falling apart, it's all falling apart. And then a couple days later, I'm up, you know, and things are fine. So I'm being treated. You know, I've I've kind of got stuff that will help me through the shroffs. So yeah, I mean, my life is not bad. I said I didn't write a book, I don't have a big success story, but I laugh easily. I enjoy spending time with friends. We talk about all kinds of stuff. It's not um, you know, I'm not a Debbie Downer. I have challenges, but I don't I don't feel a need to talk about them. I mean, I'd rather people ask like, how are you doing? I was like, well, not so great, but how are you doing? You know, and then we take off on that. Because you know, what's everybody's favorite topic? Well, themselves. So that's that's not hard at all to get the camera off of me.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

People love to talk about themselves. You're absolutely right. You ask them about themselves, they're happy to do it.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

They do, they do. And Natalie, tell me about yourself.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

Exactly.

Triggers, Cycles, And Treatment

SPEAKER_03 11:29

And and I I feel that I've shared enough with everyone for shop here about Talk to us a little bit about your art and how that has played kind of a role in getting through what you've been going through.

Art As A Mirror Of Pain

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Boy, that's my art. I didn't prep for that as much as I should have. I'd make the things I make, I make them out of kind of a a blankness. I mean, I just, oh, that's kind of cool, you know, what I'm what I'm seeing kind of in my head, and I'll draw. It's like, yeah, I like that. And then I'll make that, and then I'll discover, you know, not even while I'm making it, but months or years later, oh my God, I put that out for people to see. That's like showing my my inner self. And that's really scary. I've got one, it's uh a piece of steel with several rocks set in the steel, and they're just in different positions and different relations to each other. And I never thought about it. It was just kind of a design exercise, but it's a circle that tells my life with my first wife. This is like, you know, our our early times, our marriage together, our first child, our second child, and then we got divorced and eventually she died. So that was that was rough for my kids. But then there's the three stones at the bottom, which is kind of my life now with my sons. The three of us have something really special together. They're not kids anymore, they're 40 and 39. So anyway, more about the art. People seem to relate to it in it comes out of pain. I mean, when I make these things, it comes out of pain. I mean, it's like, oh, this is really cool. But even as I'm making it, I can feel like, you know, this kind of hurts to make this. I don't know what it's what it's gonna be, but it kind of hurts to make it. But people respond to what I do as, wow, you know, that's where I was, and I am so glad I'm not there anymore. So that is that's kind of the the the big the good thing that I can bring to the world. The pain is all kind of leached out of it, and people can use it for whatever they wanted to use it for.

SPEAKER_03 13:28

Wow, so it's resonating with people when they're seeing it, they're seeing themselves in your artwork.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

It really does. I I had an incident, not an incident, something uh set happened when I a friend of my son's, we were at a kind of celebration, and he was looking at this art, there's art all around on the walls, and it's like, you know, okay, this is my cue. I'm an artist. And he said, Oh, every artist is like they want to whip out their phone. And so I he asked the right question. So I whipped out my phone and I showed him uh one of the pieces, and he just got really quiet. He said, I really want that. Oh wow it just it spoke to him and it it was kind of a happy celebratory moment, so we didn't really talk about what was going on, but the look on his face wasn't aesthetic. You know, it was it was look like this and I, we we know each other. Deep.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Yes, absolutely. How long had you been practicing or or creating in that space before sharing it with your son?

Selling, Scale, And Galleries

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Well, I guess I started on the work that I'm doing right now. I started about eight years ago. And that kind of developed out of some years before that when I was doing things for a gallery, a woman that that I knew, she is gallery, and she said something about metal, and I was at that time learning how to weld, and I thought, you know, I can do metal. And so I said, I can do metal. And she she asked for the particular things, and I was doing little small things that you know, they were kind of like frames that went around pictures and just some some kind of cool stuff. And then it just kind of grew it. Like I started making bigger things and bigger things and bigger things, and she was still like, okay, I like this a lot. This is but by the time I got to three feet by three feet, she was like, Yeah, I like this, I like this. We can take one.

SPEAKER_03 16:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Oh we can't have four or five of this hanging in the gallery. We can take one.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Okay, okay, noted.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Yes, well I wonder about that. But that didn't slow me down. I kept making them, and they kept sitting there staring me down. So that's uh that's where I am now. I gotta get rid of my current inventory, you know, gotta get rid of current inventory. And are you still do you still have that relationship with the art gallery? Not the same as it was before. I uh I entered a program to learn how to sell my art, and so I raised my prices, and she said, Well, we we really can't sell it at that price. It wasn't selling at any price, so that was okay. So I I took uh took my work out of her gallery and I have it here. But yeah, we're fine. I mean, that's that's not a problem. That's not a problem.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

So I'm curious, James, because you you mentioned that at an earlier age, like criticism was something that kind of you know sparked response within you. And and being an artist, and like you said, I mean putting your work out there for the world to see, right? It's basically they get to see a little piece of your soul because you are pouring yourself into this. And so, how do you prepare yourself for potential criticism or have you had to face any of that?

Handling Criticism And Growth

Mentors Who Push You Further

SPEAKER_01 17:26

Oh, yeah. I finished my MFA in 2023. Well, this goes back, goes back to advertising because advertising, people don't feel shy. You know, when you bring work in, they are not shy. They will tell you, I don't like that, and they may tell you exactly why. And so I didn't get so much as a thick skin as I got a division. As long as people don't talk about me, you know, you're stupid, or you know, you make bad art. Well, that hurts. But if we're talking about the art, that's fine. And I came to grad school and learned very quickly that my favorite mentors were the ones who were hard on my art. In fact, there was one two stories I'm gonna tell you. Shortly after I uh got to the program, the head of the program came in, we were talking, and he said that something, he said, Yeah, you make trinkets for walls. And I'm like, thanks a lot, you know, thanks a lot, you know, head of the program. And you know, if you're out there, you'll know this story because you know I've told it a million times. But that was sort of kind of about me, so that kind of stung. But I looked at my work and the next day I knew, you know, you're right. And that the work that I'm showing now and selling, that that is kind of trinkets for walls. It is things that make your walls look better, that they decorate. It's all all those things. And I do have a separate body of work that came out of my MFA that is all the things that you would expect an MFA you know student to come up with. They're like installations and and performance and all these things that they're unrelated to what art that I can actually sell. But the other story was the mentor that I ended up staying with the most was a woman she I hadn't I'd met her, but I hadn't really talked to her much because I didn't have any classes with her. And so I asked to have a studio visit, have her, you know, come in and have look at my stuff. And so she came in. I had just finished this piece, I had it on the wall. I was actually kind of proud of it, you know. I I kind of looked back to art history and worked around with the metal and everything. And uh so I said, So, uh, so Marin, what what do you think of that? And she said, Yeah, that looks like something that was made to look like a piece of art. I mean, that was her first shot. That was her first shot. And I, you know, I don't know what I looked like, but I looked at her and I I looked at it and I said, Yeah, you know, you're right. So let's go. And she never said a positive thing about my work for six months, not one positive word. But I tell you what, I was growing so fast. People would come in and they would see what I was doing, and then we'd come in two weeks later, and it's like, where did this come from? Yeah, I was just developing so quickly. It was a very exciting time. Yeah. Yeah, I really like that. But I learned there, even as an advertising, and at this point, you can say anything you want about my art. Matter of fact, keep going. You know, explain to me what is wrong. Or if you like it, explain to me which what's right. But what I don't want to hear is what most artists will tell you, I love your work. I mean, just telling all you out there, just know that artists, it kind of hurts because you know, I I want to know why you like my work, what what moves you, or if you if you don't like my work, or if it you do like it, but there's something wrong, tell me that. Engage. So, you know, you go to the art fairs, and people, they don't have time. You know, they either like it or they don't. And they're they're look they're looking for the$25 earrings and the$50, you know,$50 something else, and they're not looking for the multi-thousand dollar kind of stuff that I have. So I don't I don't go to those. But when they go around, and I've done this myself, you go around to the stalls and you look, and it's not saying not your thing, you turn, you look to the artist and say, You have beautiful work. Now, as an artist, having gone through that, I will never ever do that. I will never ever, I will, I will point to something and I will say, you know, this is what I like about that. And I'll say, you know, but I wish something, something, something. And I feel certain they will say, Wow, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

Oh, I love that. I think that's great advice. I mean, we have a lot of sculpture shows that come to this part of the world. We're in Colorado, and so that's a great thing to keep in mind as we're visiting with artists and and and just as our listeners are out there, right? It's not a I love your work, it's great, and carry on. Yeah, it it lands flat.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

If you want to say something, look around and pick out the thing that made you like their work the most and say, I like this the most. I like it because, and even if you can just give them a sentence or two, they'll like their ears will pop up and it's like thank you. And they'll say, probably say thank you very much. Because you know, they sit there all day waiting to hear.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

That one thing. I I love what that teacher did for you because by her what she said to you, that's where the growth happened. Because what do you say, six months? So she saw something bigger for you, and she just kept doing that to push you to to be better and better. And what a cool opportunity to have somebody like that that that challenged you to get to that next level.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Yeah, very much. I mean, I I just love her to bits.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

That's and well, you have an opportunity to choose, right? That's what it always comes down to is you have the choice because in that moment you could have said, Really? I think it's amazing. Yeah, I'm gonna take my things elsewhere.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Yeah, and I have choices, and it's not an official thing. Mentors, mentors are the people you turn to, mentors are the people. who are the ones who help you, who who feel you and you feel them. And they can show up at any time. And she just turned out in the school to be the one that uh most that fed me the most. And there were people I was were easier people who were kind of like the the official people I should be working with. But not to you know cast any shade. Those relationships were wonderful too and I learned a great amount from them. But I tell you the things that Marin did to my work is just night and day. With the thing that I showed her on the wall was the last trinket I ever made. Yeah well until until I came to what I'm doing now because as I said I got out of uh grad school and I was making instant installations and this is not saleable. I can't this is not supportable. I don't know I don't know what I was thinking you know going to the end of grad school and thinking I guess I thought somebody's gonna pick me up I'm gonna be a star you know just like two videos you made he told me I was gonna be a star but it didn't happen. It did not happen.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

From a marketing standpoint that part of my brain thinks that you should have just trademarked that right like wall trinkets by James here you go.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

It's not too late it's not too late. It's not too late so I can do that.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

James do you find that you have more of that creative spark when you're having those higher moments or is it when you realize that you're in the low and you use it more of a way to express or is it a combination?

Caffeine, Focus, And Fragility

SPEAKER_01 24:27

I think it creates the high. I mean different artists call it different things but I call it being in the dream world it's a place where there is no time and I'm just I I'm totally engaged with what I'm doing. And the odd thing is that with steel you know you can't you can't draw a steel it's a weeks long months long process to build something and it's just failure and success and failure and success and just all those problem solving problem solving but when I'm doing it I'm in the zone I'm there I'm like 100% there. And that is the high I honestly don't know if that makes me go into a high like just generally you know do I walk out of there and I'm still high? I think I do I think I do but then the first thing that I run into that brings me down I I I'm kind of fragile and I'll go down. So that being being in the dream world that's where I want to be but uh the real world I'll tell you a story about the dream world don't tell anybody okay we won't say a word we'll just be between us at an art show I go to go to an art show I knew a friend of mine was going to be there so I went I was gonna go to try to find her stuff but I was like dead tired at that time I was staying up till three and four in the morning I don't know why I was doing this but I was doing it. So I got there and it's like middle of the day and I'm like you know falling asleep walking around so I walk into this uh coffee shop and I say you know what can you just give me a double shot and so they gave me a double shot I went over to a table and I was like took the shot and like still like that I did six double shots. I don't think it kicks in like instantly James No and my heart is already palpitating like I did and I I checked my pulse I wasn't I wasn't my heart was not going to beat out of my chest but I got outside and everything was different. It was all and it was it was like being in the dream world when I'm working I was just hyper focused and and yet everything was just a slight move away and it wasn't like you know if I run into somebody they won't notice because I'm not there or they're not there. That wasn't it at all it had all the rules of the of the world but it was just like very slightly grayed out is all I can say. Yeah it was wonderful I did kind of try it with with four shots of one time I know you know I'm not I'm not 24 anymore and I can't do I can't do that.

Closing And Listener Invitation

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Okay so this was when you were younger yes uh no actually this was last year oh wow um but I didn't I didn't know I didn't know it was gonna happen because I don't drink a ton of coffee you know don't drink a ton of coffee no coffee to six shots of coffee wow yeah six six expressive well and here's the thing when you're like you're it becomes like this thing where you're chasing that dream world right like you know what it's like to be in that space naturally and now caffeinated way of getting there.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Absolutely yeah thank you for joining us today on the Reignite Resilience podcast we hope you had some aha moments and learned a few new real life ideas to fuel the flames of passion please subscribe on your favorite streaming platform like or download your favorite episodes and of course share with your friends and family we look forward to seeing you again next time on Reignite Resilience