Decision Fatigue Is The Real Prison Sentence with Jesse Crossen (Part 2)

The hardest part of starting over isn’t always the big stuff like a job, a home, or a fresh start on paper. It’s the moment someone cuts the line, your body tenses, your heart races, and you realize the outside world runs on a different set of rules. We sit down with Jesse Crosson to talk about prison reentry, resilience, and what it really takes to build a steady life when chaos is everywhere and burnout is always waiting. 

We also trace the story back to the juvenile center, where an art teacher’s tearful message sparks a deeper mission: stop losing kids to the same cycles and give them a place to dream out loud without being judged. Jesse shares the small moment that says everything a young person quietly admits he wants to be a flight attendant, expecting ridicule, and instead finds support. That’s the kind of psychological safety that turns into confidence, identity, and forward motion. 

From there, we get practical. Jesse explains a minimum viable product for a re-entry video game that simulates real-world triggers like conflict, crowds, and decision fatigue. We talk about how prison structure can make everyday freedom overwhelming, why reducing options can protect your nervous system, and how relationships can either stabilize your life or drag you back into old patterns. The bigger takeaway applies to all of us: learning to sit with discomfort, staying curious, and treating setbacks as information can change the entire direction of a life. 

The Quiet Gift: A Journey of Self Worth and Resilience is now available for download as an audible.  Check it out!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

All of us reach a point in time where we are depleted and need to somehow find a way to reignite the fire within. But how do we spark that flame? Welcome to Reignite Resilience, where we will venture into the heart of the human spirit. We'll discuss the art of reigniting our passion and strategies to stoke our enthusiasm. And now here are your hosts, Natalie Davis and Pamela Cass.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

It's really heartbreaking because when we first went to the juvenile center, it was actually the art teacher who worked there who reached out to me. She she sent me a DM and said, Can we meet for coffee? And 30 seconds in was just crying. And I said, like, what she said, I can't lose another kid. These kids come in and they're so smart and they're so capable and they're so driven. And then they get out to the same home in the same neighborhood in the same BS and they ended up right back or they end up shooting somebody or getting shot themselves. And I can't do it. Like I need help. Wow. So we started going in and we started asking and saying, like, hey, like, what do you need? You know, what kind of programs were you interested in? And it led to a place where I had to recognize that like I didn't know what the answer was. And I I wasn't in a position to tell people what it should be. And I remember we we had somebody come in and was like really trying to push the kids in a direction, like, you need to get into vocational, you need to get into this, you need to get into that. And I remember the one kid, this this will never go away from me. It was this kid who was always afraid to share. We would talk about like what did we want to do with what did we want our lives to look like? And he would never say anything. And then finally, like he was sheepishly looked around one day and was like, I want to be a flight attendant. And he was looking over his shoulder because he thought somebody was going to judge him or clown him. And instead, everybody was like, Yeah, that's kind of like travel and I want I want to travel. That sounds great. And you could see the smile that hit his face when for the first time he was able to say it and not get rejected or not get put down and suddenly think, like, okay, I'm allowed to want this, I'm allowed to need this, I'm allowed to want to be this person. And yeah, to be a part of that process, to be be witness to that process, even is just amazing.

Building A Safe Space To Dream

A Video Game For Reentry Chaos

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Yeah, you were able to give him a safe space where he felt like he could share what it was, but it took him a while to warm up to do that. But he did. It's incredible. With this video game, does it help them also go from you know, fast paced? You go to prison and then everything stops. And so you're kind of recalibrating. Okay, this is what it looks like just to be still, which obviously they're not used to. Then they get out of prison and we're back to this whole you know, rat race again. Yeah. What is like does that game kind of help them with that transition of how they can keep that peace without getting back onto the crazy train?

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Yeah, the like rat wheel or the rat race. I mean, that's the hope. So what we've done is we've built out an MVP or like a minimum viable product. We've built a prototype that we're now taking around to funders to try to get a partnership. We've got a couple presentations coming up where I'm hoping. But as an example, like part of that MVP is when you get out, you have the opportunity to go to the DMV, and they're all the people and all the conflict, and somebody's gonna cut in the line, and you're gonna have the option. Do you really want to stay or do you want to go get drinks with this guy, or do you want to maybe let somebody give you 50 bucks to cut in line? Or so just kind of like creating that chaos because we don't really deal with that chaos in prison. Things are a lot simpler, like not easier, but a lot simpler. So creating that chaos in different scenarios, we really are trying to prepare people for saying, hey, all the rules you're used to are difficult. Because I remember I struggle with that. Like I was a very peaceful, very mature person, but the first time somebody bumped me on the outside and didn't say excuse me, or the first time somebody just cut in line, I remember my heart started racing, my hands started clenching, and I was like, oh, like I'm in a place where people don't have rules, where people don't actually care. And I had to adjust to that. I had to remember, like, you know what, I don't care about any of that. And I knew I didn't, but it was just instinctual at that point after so many years inside. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

Even like the decision fatigue that you talk about, I think I it I'm assuming that you incorporate that into the game as well. Because I mean, you talk about body wash. I mean, just the things that we do on a normal basis, like, what are you making for dinner? How are you prepping that? Where are you gonna go? What are you gonna wear? You know, it's it's all of the decisions that you don't necessarily have to make in prison. You're gonna wear the same thing and you're gonna eat what we say you're gonna eat, and you're gonna go where we say you're gonna go in the time that we tell you that you're gonna go there. Like it's kind of structured in that respect. And so addressing that is like Pam said, like you got to get back on the carousel of life. We'll call it that. We'll make it nicer instead of it being a handsome wheel.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Let's make it as we're in a carousel of life, but it is going around, right? Because what is it, like 35,000 decisions we make every day? Yes.

unknown 4:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

I mean, from going to making like maybe five decisions a day to that, that's incredibly overwhelming for absolutely.

Relationships That Pull You Back

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Absolutely. You know, we we talked about it and we realized it wasn't realistic to just expect that we could like train people up like an 80s workout montage. One of the best things we can do is help people take those decisions away. Like, hey, we're gonna lay our clothes out, we're gonna buy all the same outfit, or all the tips and tricks you see from like the tech bows or whatever, which regardless of the source, I do think it's really good information. And I encourage people with that. When they tell me, hey, how can I prepare for this and this and this? I say, look, sometimes one of the best things you can do is have fewer options rather than more. And that's as a person who spent my life trying to create more options, who literally prioritized whether a decision would lead to more options for me or fewer. But I'll give you an example. I I use this a lot with kids in the juvenile center, people in jail, because this like fabulously wealthy individual I really admired, did a lot of good things with his money. I asked him, I said, Hey, you know, would you ever consider having me as an intern? Like I would come, I'll bring you coffee, I'll literally do whatever it takes. I just want to learn from you. And he sent me this very thoughtful response of, like, you know, I'm not really good for this, and I'm really sorry, and I hope you can understand. And what I wrote back was like, no, thank you. Like you took one of the options off the table, you made it that much simpler. I appreciate your directness, we're good to go. And then I ended up following up with him about something else. He said, you know, I admire your tenacity. I admire that you accept no, but at the same time, you don't ever accept no for an answer. Like you're gonna find some way to keep coming, but you don't ever make it feel pressured. And so I tell people, like, yeah, that's a big part of success. Like, okay, let's take options off the table, let's celebrate when something doesn't work out. That's one option off the table. We can focus on the options we have in front of us, but at the same time, we can keep going and we can keep creating opportunities and we can keep kind of like creating whatever is right in front of us, but we have to keep going forward. And I will tell you that that, especially I warn people on the inside, is one of the things that leads to burnout so badly, is because we do. Like, I feel like I'm still barely catching up. It's been four and a half years, and I feel like I'm so far behind everybody. And like I've done really well in four and a half years. I've accomplished a lot, I've met a lot of people, I've built a lot of relationships, but I still have that kind of scarcity, which was really from childhood. It's not even from prison. It's that never feeling like I was enough, or maybe if I do more, then I'll be worthy of love, or and just having to kind of check myself on that, and having to pause and say, okay, like where am I at and where is this coming from? Is this coming from who I want to be, or is this coming from that childhood that I'm still trying to run away from? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

Jesse, how did you what did you do to make sure that you didn't get out of prison to go back into the same lifestyle that you left before?

SPEAKER_01 6:52

I think the biggest blessing was that I had I had kind of left that lifestyle a long time. You know, in prison, I got to choose who I was around. And there were people who stayed getting high and stayed banging and stayed doing all the things I was doing before I went to prison. And I'm really grateful that I was able to find people on the inside who I looked up to, who I admired, and who I learned from. At the same time, there are dangers. And I remember it was so interesting when I got out, the governor granted the actual pardon, but there was someone, there was a clemency like specialist essentially at the parole ward, even though we don't have parole in Virginia. It's very, it basically went through this very complicated chain of command. And this person reached out to me and said, Jesse, I want to caution you, the number one thing I see lead people back to prison is relationships. Like, please take some time, focus on yourself. Like, don't go that route. And I remember laughing at the time because I was in a relationship, like I said, with this reporter who was like my rock, was is to this day like one of the people that I could not imagine living without in this world. Like, I love her more than anything, and I didn't understand that. But then I started to see people come out and I started to see how relationships turned sour and how toxic things came out and how conflict led to I began to see that happen over and over and over. And so I think in some ways I was lucky that I I did get into a relationship, probably before I should have, but it was with somebody who was very profoundly healthy. But also that I had learned to communicate, and in that relationship, and in every relationship, I communicated. I I asked for help. I I said, hey, I'm really struggling right now. And that was the great thing about Courtney is that I, you know, I for months would just regularly have a panic attack and end up curled in a fetal position, just shaking and not knowing why. But she was someone who I felt safe being around and doing that, and not needing to hide it or not needing to justify it or explain it, but just saying, hey, I'm struggling. Like I need I need five minutes. I can't I can't do this right now. And I think a lot of people don't have that, and a lot of people feel pressured to. But I also think about the fact that, you know, I was able to get out, and the first job I had was for an attorney helping fix up his house for sale. So I'm like out in the woods next to a lake and swinging a hammer, and a lot of people are in a McDonald's or in a factory with all this loud noise and this pressure in this hubbub. And I was really lucky because I had kind of a low pressure environment that I was able to process in. A lot of people jumped right back into the fire, right back into the gears of the machine.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

Yeah, absolutely. Your relationship, tell us about that. And is it in the book? Don't give it away.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

It is in the book, yeah. I will say the relationship, like I said, it did not work out in the long run in the form that it was. But what I found was somebody who it's funny, when we first started talking, when we we originally started, she interviewed me for a story on the abolition of parole in Virginia, and so we were on the phone, but we never actually met each other because the prison wouldn't allow recording inside, so we might as well just do a phone call because she couldn't bring a device in unless she was take notes. This was for TV, so the interview ended up being like a picture of her and a picture of me just plastered on the screen while they played the audio. We kept talking, and at one point we just laughed and we were like, are we like weird, I don't know, like karmic siblings or something? Like, there's some connection here, and I don't know what it is, I don't know what to make of it. Um, and I think ultimately we live in a society that has this whole idea of like, what is it, compulsory heterosexuality? Like if a man and a woman have a connection, it must be sexual or it must be romantic, rather than just being like, oh my god, we have an incredible connection. It's great to know this person. And I think to some degree that was what happened, in addition to the fact that we were both isolated because I was in prison and she was in the middle of COVID and had things going on, and we were both like, oh, this is the answer to my problems, this is that connection, we can kind of dive into that. And in a lot of ways it was really healthy, but when I got out and we we kind of adjusted, and when we moved in together, and we we got to these new milestones, we continued to kind of find this friction. And I found out that I was very mature and very capable for a single person in prison, but getting out to the world and getting in a relationship was like the advanced version of the game, and I was not ready for that. And so I had a lot of stuff to work on, I had a lot of stuff to do, and you know, I definitely did not bring my best self to that relationship. And I'm grateful for her understanding, I'm grateful for her flaws as well, so I didn't feel quite as bad, like it was always my fault. But ultimately, we just realized that we we really deeply cared about each other, but the relationship was not really how that was meant to be expressed. And I'm grateful for where we both are. I'm great, she's been wildly successful. She's a director of recording for Audio Chuck that does all the true crime podcasts. It's just like kind of like making her way in the world, and I'm finding my way, and I'm I'm trying to figure out what that looks like. And it's been an honor to know her and to continue to know her.

SPEAKER_02 10:59

I love that you talked about the people that you surrounded yourself with in prison, because I mean that is that is in all life is you know, who are you surrounding yourself with? Who are the people that are in your sphere? Because that can lead you in one direction or the other. And you made that choice in prison not to go down that same path that you were on before you went to prison or that led you to prison.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

And it was hard because you know, I I tell people a lot of times, especially I go back in, sometimes when they get out too, is you know, my life got infinitely better, not just when I found good people to add to it, but when I found some people to kind of take out of it or create distance from in it. And that really was where I got a lot of the peace and a lot of the safety. But it was hard because there were people who I cared about, or people that I'd say I have to love at a distance. Like I have to stick my arm out, and I'm I'm always gonna love you, but also I gotta love you from over here because this just doesn't work very well. And especially when I talk to kids in the juvenile center, people getting out of jail, so many described doing this for their siblings or whatever they did, they were trying to take care of their siblings or they were trying to take care of their family. And what I tell them is, you know, sometimes basically you can't save other people if you can't save yourself. And if you're constantly throwing yourself on the tracks to try to help someone else, are you really helping them or are you just continuing to kind of sacrifice yourself in the hopes that they later make the same decision? And what we'll usually get them is I'll say, Would you want your little brother or your little sister to do this for someone? And that's when they go, like, oh hell no. And it's like, well, if you wouldn't want them to do it, like maybe they don't want you to do it. It's a challenge. That's that's a huge part of it that uh I I'm still not perfect at, and I still am not sure how to help people navigate. Yeah.

Learning To Sit With Discomfort

SPEAKER_03 12:30

You say that that was the that was the challenge. I feel like it would, I feel like that's the easy piece, right? Like to get into prison and say, you know what, I'm just gonna numb my way through the next X number of years, whatever that's gonna look like, right? I feel like that would have been the much easier decision to make. It's like I just need a numb. And you chose a different path, different sense of community, seeking out mentorship, seeking out advice and counsel as as you're in there and and growing, the personal growth piece.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

And I think a lot of that came from the unexpected blessing of the collapse and the the having to face things without a choice. Because sitting in that jail cell, there was no way to numb things. And I could have beat my head against the wall, maybe, but there was no access to drugs, there was no access to anything to take it away, there was no access to relationships to distract myself. My cat is fairly not to think I wouldn't.

SPEAKER_03 13:16

She's very active.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Very vocal. But I think I I became kind of obsessed with or at least very interested in that, because I realized it was a shift for me because I've been running from those things for my whole life. When I realized I could actually explore them or experience them or feel them, and it wouldn't destroy me. I started kind of maybe like liking the fire, being like, well, maybe what if I stay a little bit longer in this feeling? What if I dive a little bit deeper to that memory? And it became really liberating. And that was that was indirectly how it led me to meditation, where I was able to sit like really deeply and really long and really in ways that I didn't imagine with all these feelings that had come up. And I feel like that was a big part of the path to freedom because it taught me how to sit. And there's a Zen teacher who talks about this. He said, you know, we sit every day because we choose to, and we sit every day so that when we have to, we're okay with it. So when we sit because we choose to, and we don't get up even though it hurts, we have that choice. But the day, you know, we have cancer, the day we lose someone, then we don't have a choice in that matter. We're still able to sit with it. And that always just stuck with me as really it. Like I'm going to try to learn to be uncomfortable. I'm going to try to learn to be okay with whatever happens. And then when those things happen that I can't choose or I can't control, I'll be okay with that too.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

Everything that you are talking about relates not only to being incarcerated, but just everyday life. Life for most people.

SPEAKER_03 14:34

Yes. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Incredible lessons. Right?

SPEAKER_03 14:37

It's it's the mindset, it's the community, who you're surrounding yourself with, it's the personal development and the introspective work. Like it's absolutely applies across the board.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

It's what I'm grateful for. You know, I've had ever since that mentor session, a couple of people, I've started coaching people, and I felt really out of place with that. I was like, again, just like the mentor, like, you want to come to me for guidance? Like, are you sure? Do you know my story? Like, are you sure? But what I found is that we are. We are all a lot more alike than different, and we are all struggling in the same ways. And my very unusual journey has led me to have a familiarity with and a comfort with things that I think people out in the world often don't, because I got used to being uncomfortable. And out in the world, we're very often taught that our job is to never be uncomfortable. We need to buy something or do something or upgrade something because then we don't have to have any discomfort in our lives. And that's an unfortunate trap that I don't think allows us to get anywhere. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:27

Say it again for the people in the back, right? There is discomfort, and it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

Okay, we will survive. We will learn. Yes. Come out on the other side a stronger person.

Serendipity As A Life Strategy

SPEAKER_03 15:39

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Jesse, what's next? You fulfill the three things that you set out as a goal or something that you would enjoy doing. And what's next? What's on the horizon for you?

SPEAKER_01 15:52

I've been asked that a lot lately. And it's hard because if you had asked me five years ago when I was sitting in prison what was next, it I wouldn't have told you I'd be here with you. So I think what I've tried to do is focus wholeheartedly on the things that are in front of me and do the next right thing. Because I'm not in charge of the result, I'm not in charge of the outcome, I'm not in charge of what's next. But I can do to the best of my ability what's right in front of me. So I do restorative justice work in town, I do the speaking, I do the guidance, I do the coaching, and that feels really good. And maybe in the future I got this kind of mysterious email from somebody in my life who was like, hey, when were you available for an interview? And I was like, oh, like a podcast? They said, no, like a job interview. I said, well, I'm not really looking for a job, but like, I don't know, maybe Thursday, and they said, no, we really need you to take this call. So I have no idea what's coming down the pipe, but maybe something mysterious, or maybe it's a prank, I don't know. But I will also say that being open to things, I I do a video call with someone every every Friday, and he says, Jesse, you're the most open to serendipity of anybody I've ever met in my life. Like, you say yes and walk into situations that most of us would run from, and then somehow you manage to come out on the other side like gleaming and and and you know successful. And I think there is something to that. There's something to just not being afraid and just walking into the room and having the conversation and shaking the hands, and it may turn into nothing, and most times it does turn into nothing, but every now and then it turns into some really incredible stories and some really incredible memories. And just trust in the journey.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Yeah. I love that you trust so much that he's like, yeah, I'll take the call. It could be a place or it could be an opportunity. Who knows? But I'm here for it. Why not? I know that. I I don't think that most people go through life with that level of what did he call it, serendipity. Just like that's it's the opportunity that popped up. It could be an opportunity, it could be a prank, but you know what? It's on my schedule for Thursday. We'll see. We'll see what happens.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

We can learn something out of it, no matter what it is.

SPEAKER_03 17:37

I love that.

Finding Opportunity In Hard Things

SPEAKER_01 17:38

It's funny, I remember sitting in prison and everybody used to judge. Like that was a big thing. It was like this group who judge this group, who judge this group, and it was always this comparison. And I would talk to everybody. And at one point, somebody stopped me and they were like, Why do you talk to that guy? Like, what why would you ever talk to that guy? I said, I said, Because I learned from him. They were like, What could you possibly learn from him? He's just listed all of all these negative things. And I said, Well, sometimes I learn what I don't want to do or who I don't want to be. Sometimes I learn a nugget that I wasn't expecting because he has some experience or some perspective that really hits me. Um, you know, when I started working with Big Baby, I definitely didn't expect that I would learn about perseverance, that I would learn about all these perspective shifts, but I did. And it's because I continue to have those conversations and be open to learning because I'm not better than anyone. I'm not smarter than, you know, the whole idea of like putting people on pedestals and judging, like, that's irrelevant. I could walk up to a kid and that kid could teach me the most important thing in the world, and I could find some cranky old man who'd probably give me something to laugh about. Like, there's always value in other people. Like, we don't even have to like them. We can find some value in maybe in not liking them and learning to be in that discomfort and saying, you know what, I'll do this at the next family Thanksgiving. When things get ugly, I'll just sit here like the Buddha and I'll be perfectly at peace. But everything is an opportunity, and that's really when you look at the book or the book title, The Best Part of Prison, which a lot of people are confused about, it's not that prison is good. I will never advocate that prison is a good thing, but it's that we in our society are taught to believe that things are either good or bad, and we label them as such, like, oh, I lost my job, this is the worst thing ever, it's terrible. Not saying, oh, well, maybe this is the opportunity to lead into my future or lead into my dream or start my dream business. And so by learning that even in prison, I can look for the best and I can look for the opportunity and taking that mindset into everything that I do, there is no bad news. Like even when bad things happen, it's just another opportunity.

SPEAKER_03 19:17

The things that we label as bad.

unknown 19:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:19

It's still another opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

Yeah, still another opportunity and just being curious about everything and everyone. Because it leads to incredible things when you open your mind to it. So this has been fantastic.

How To Follow And Support Jesse

SPEAKER_03 19:31

It has been amazing. Jesse, how can our listeners get in touch with you, follow you, find you? Where are you? Sounds like you're on TikTok. We know that you're on Insta. How else can they get in touch with you and support what you're working on?

SPEAKER_01 19:42

I am on TikTok, Instagram, Jesse Crosson, or Second Chancer, which is Chance with an R, on all the platforms. Also Second Chancer Foundation or Second Chancer.org. It's a nonprofit I run, working with kids in the juvenile center as well as doing the video game. Jessicroson.com that's has a lot of book stuff, has some events, has some scheduling. Yeah, look me up. It's one of my favorite things is I just came back from Chicago, and one of my favorite things is everywhere I go, I post and say, hey, where should I go? Who should I meet? What should I do? And I have the opportunity to meet people in random places. And and every now and then it's it's ended up not the best. But for the most part, I get this incredible insider view of a of a city or of an industry or of an experience. And I love that. So yeah, please reach out. Like I'm I'm always looking to connect with people. I'm always looking to learn. I'm always looking to share and find ways that we can work together.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

That's amazing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm just gonna guess or assume that in those instances where you've connected with people while you're traveling and it's not been the best. Is it with individuals that are looking for self-serving connection?

SPEAKER_01 20:36

That's a pretty good description. Yeah. I would say there's there has been on occasions a very unhealthy dynamic, and often that is about kind of self-service or self-satisfaction that I have not been comfortable taking part in.

Advice For Rock Bottom Moments

SPEAKER_03 20:46

I can imagine that, like actually being friction for you. Like that's the that's the only thing that I can imagine. Especially, again, when you're serendipitously walking through life looking for opportunities. Jesse, thank you, thank you, thank you. This has been amazing for our listeners. I'm gonna give you an opportunity talking to one of our listeners that may find themselves in a moment or a space where they feel like their back's against the wall or they don't know what to do next. What advice do you have for those individuals?

SPEAKER_01 21:15

I would say it is okay to give up. It is okay to surrender for five minutes or for 15 minutes, but after that, make sure you put your shoes back on and you get to walk in. And I would say that wherever we are, like the day that I was arrested, I thought it was the end of my life. And it really ended up being the first chapter in the best part of my life. And so I tell people, today is the first day of the rest of your life, and it's gonna be what you make it. So if you invest in kind of feeding that part of yourself that is is grateful, is present, is aware, is of service of other people, hey, you're probably gonna have a pretty good life. If you invest all your energy in that part of you that is self serving, it is that is scared, that is kind of like shrinking away, it's probably not gonna be the best. So if today is the the first day of the rest of your life, live it how you want to live your life.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

I love that. I love it. Perfect. Thank you, thank you, thank you. But we will make sure that we put your contact information in the show notes so our listeners can get a hold of you. Maybe throw out some recommendations and advice when you're out and about and travel in the world and they're good ones, good vibes only, people. Yes. Thank you for taking the time to share your story. And thank you for taking the time to share your gift and having an impact on the world. We really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Thank you.

Final Listener Calls To Action

SPEAKER_03 22:22

Absolutely. For our listeners, make sure that you head on over to reigniteresilience.com to find out what's going on in our world. Subscribe to our Think Letter. Check out the video version of this pod on YouTube if you are so inclined. There's just as much laughter in the video version of the as the audio version. We have a good time. And until next time, we will see y'all soon.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Bye everyone. Thank you for joining us today on the Reignite Resilience podcast. We hope you had some aha moments and learned a few new real life ideas to fuel the flames of passion. Please subscribe on your favorite streaming platform. Like or download your favorite episodes, and of course, share with your friends and family. We look forward to seeing you again next time on Reignite Resilience.