Naming in an AI Age

40 Years of Naming: What I Learned Building a Creative Naming Agency

• The NameStormers • Season 3 • Episode 11

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In this episode of Naming in the AI Age, NameStormers CEO & Cofounder Mike Carr explains that while AI can enhance naming tasks, it can't replace the strategic thinking and creativity needed to stand out. With rising competition and less focus on SEO, success depends on specialization and expertise. Carr highlights the need for data-driven methods that capture real emotional responses, and cautions against rushing to market in today’s fast-paced branding landscape.

Ashley Elliott (00:04):

Well, hello and welcome to naming in an AI Age. This week is a little bit different. We're going to play 21 questions, just kidding. But we do have a unique vantage point with our co-founder Mike, who's been naming for 40 years. I'm not sure I know anyone else. I don't know anybody that's, I mean, I'm not even 40 years old, so I don't know anyone else who started naming 40 years ago and is still going strong. So I'd love to ask you some questions, Mike, and see just a little bit more about your story and the experience that you've had over these last four decades.

Mike Carr (00:31):

Go for it.

Ashley Elliott (00:32):

Okay. Naming is very niche. I didn't even know it existed before I started working here. Can you give us maybe a 92nd view of who you are? What is NameStormers and what do you do?

Mike Carr (00:42):

So naming definitely is a niche, and when we got into this business back in 1985 and 1986, nobody could even believe you could make a living doing this, but it's a specialty that's grown in importance to where now even with ai, I think it is far more important than it's ever been because of all the noise that's out there. And so it's this idea that you only have one shot at making the right first impression, and that's often your name. And so the effort and time and deep thinking you put into what's the right name for my personal brand? What's the right name for my new product, for my new service, for my nonprofit or my company? Those are all things that we work with clients all over the world to help answer.

Ashley Elliott (01:17):

Yeah. So if you had to define your superpower, why are you a naming expert or what unique skill or insight that you feel like sets you apart in the naming world, what would that be and how has it really shaped the success that NameStormers has had?

Mike Carr (01:31):

Yeah, I think this is also your superpower, Ashley, and I think it's taken me 40 years to get good at this, but I think you just naturally are this way, and I think it's the ability to really listen and pay attention and then ask some darn good questions. Questions that aren't the obvious questions, but questions that really read between the lines that ferret out the nuances that get a sense as to what's really going on with the client or a naming need. And often there are things that folks won't share with you. They may tell you the targets are this and we want the name to do these other things. But then you sort of ask the question like, well, okay, what's the biggest challenge that you really would like the name to address? Or some other question that they really haven't talked about after maybe an hour session, but you really want to get to the heart of what's going on here, and we want to go down different paths with these questions to really get at what's going to set them apart. What's your name going to have to do for you more than just some of the obvious things that I think everybody ask.

Ashley Elliott (02:27):

Agreed. Yeah. I think reading between the lines, like you said is very important.

Mike Carr (02:30):

You bet.

Ashley Elliott (02:31):

And so you were a software engineer, I believe, right? So you've read between the lines a lot, I'm sure. How did you pursue the current path that you're on and how has your vision really evolved along the way from software engineer to where you are now?

Mike Carr (02:43):

I like this question. I think so many folks now are almost reverting to where we were back in the mid eighties with ai. AI is truly a software tool. It's a very cool software tool platform, LLM, whatever you want to use to describe it, but it is limited by the constraints that any non-human tool is limited by. Even though it mimics human behavior pretty well, it can't really take you into something that's totally new and exciting and different. A lot of it is coming up with things that are pretty darn good, but they're similar to what's already out there. And so I think what software engineering has done for me personally is help understand the limitations of what a computer can do. We wrote the first PC program for naming back in 1986 that was commercially available anyway. We had an adaptive learning method, which was sort of a baby AI method. And so we learned a lot of things 40 years ago. And so that's evolved our thinking. And today we still of course use all kinds of software apps and tools and certainly AI in a big way, but never to replace what's becoming even more and more important, which is that human intuition, that understanding, that deep expertise in a field.

Ashley Elliott (03:58):

Speaking of ai, I know we use it a lot, but there's a lot of wrong ways to use it. And so how are you currently applying the expertise, even from all the way back then to the AI tools that are available now to really create that meaningful change and innovation in our industry or specifically for our clients?

Mike Carr (04:13):

Yeah, I got an email from Neil Patel this morning. Not that I know him personally, but I'm on his mailing list. So I get his emails, which he's very good at sending out it seems like every day. And he was talking about this problem. He was talking about how folks are defaulting to AI more and more often to create content, whether that's a post or a graphic or even video content. And it's losing the originality, it's losing the creativity, it's losing the real insights that someone that's been doing it for a while and has gone through lots of challenges with all kinds of clients has come to appreciate and sort of knows how to navigate. And so that's the problem I think with today. It's so easy to start using AI and give it a few prompts. It's coming up with some pretty good names, but you haven't thought through the strategy yet.

(05:01):

You haven't thought about, well, how does this dovetail with our overall brand positioning, value prop, our archetype, where we want the company to go, where we want the product to go, where I want my personal brand to go. And you really need to do some of that legwork before you turn AI on. Otherwise it's going to give you something that you might find attractive, but it might not really fit what your long-term vision is. And we've found with some clients is hard to get them to change the path, right? Once they've gone down the wrong path, even though it's pretty good, it's not going to serve them well. So I think that's one of the biggest challenges with where we are today in the state of affairs with ai,

Ashley Elliott (05:40):

Navigating those challenges. By the time you solve one, you have another challenge coming up with the way things are evolving. Speaking of challenges, I wanted to see what is one of the biggest challenges you've had to face in your life? How did you overcome it and what was that lesson that you learned to be able to take away from that experience?

Mike Carr (05:55):

I think as one gains an experience, there's a real danger to think the answer before you've really fared it out where the client or your team's coming from. And so not asking the question multiple times and not really listening and not trying to, oh, I get it right. We've done 20 projects like this already in this space. I know exactly what they want and how to solve the problem, and you're off to the races. And that's never the best strategy. The best strategy is, well, how is what you're doing different? How is the environment changed from even a year ago? What is your key point of differentiation? Where do you see the opportunities given today's environment that didn't exist a year ago? So I think one of the biggest failings I've had and that I've come to realize is no one has all the answers.

(06:45):

And just because it sounds very similar in terms of the parameters, the type of name that's needed, the style, the geographic scope, who knows what, right? There's always something that's different about it. There's always something that is super important, and it doesn't always reveal itself after that first question or two or three or four. But diving deep and really trying to get a good lay of the land before you switch into problem solving mode or creative mode is hugely important. And something that I have not been very good at in the past, and I'm still learning, but hopefully getting a little better at every day.

Ashley Elliott (07:19):

Yeah. I think about, we talked about reading between the lines. We talked about sometimes we have to have more of a discovery process with our clients. Naming is different. It's not your typical branding overarching type of concept. So what is a unique framework or principle that we use here at NameStormers specifically that we feel maybe people often overlook or utilize?

Mike Carr (07:38):

And I've talked about this off and on for a long time, and it rubs clients the wrong way, but what you think about a name really doesn't matter. And especially when you're talking to CEOs or founders of a company, they just go crazy and berserk. When you say something like that, what do you mean? What I say or what I think about a name doesn't matter, but the point we're trying to make with that statement is think about your target. Think about who you really want that name to work for most cases, not always, but I would say well over half of the time, and you know this too, Ashley, the target isn't the client we're talking to or the people we're talking to on their team. They may be targeting someone much younger and they just don't understand how those folks react to names, how they interface with digital media. It's just a whole different mindset. And so having people in the room that are representative of that target, whether it's employees that you're targeting, customers that you're targeting, partners that you're targeting, investors that you're targeting is just super important. Trying to help folks understand that in a subtle way that doesn't cause angst and stress and argument, but more of a thoughtful debate is something that I think is a big deal and very important.

Ashley Elliott (08:51):

I think it's important of the disconnecting the layers of disconnect. We want to make sure that we bridge those gaps so that they're understanding their target better. Speaking of bridging the gaps, I mean it's a digital media world now, especially compared to 40 years ago. Where do you see the naming industry going in the next five to 10 years, and how are we working at name source to stay ahead of the curve?

Mike Carr (09:10):

Well, I think a lot of folks have talked about this in different podcasts and even books. I follow Mark Schaefer, and I've mentioned him before and he's, I think brought this up several times. Paul Roker, who has a podcast on AI, has talked about this. There's going to be a big shakeout. It's already happened. I think on the agency side, the marketing side of the business and the customer support side of the business, if you are average AI, can make you look good or maybe even a little bit above average, but you really have to be great. You really have to bring to the table your A game all the time. I think to survive over the coming months or the coming years, it's easy now for AI to do a lot of the things that someone that's pretty good can do, especially when it comes to name creation or trademark searching or linguistic clearance.

(10:01):

But if you really are good, if you really take the time and try to understand the complexity of the problem, the opportunities for success, I think you can almost always come up with a name or a tagline or a branding strategy that's better than what you're going to come up with using AI or using other tech. And so the great firms are going to survive and flourish, and everybody else, I'm afraid, is going to go out of business because I don't think there's room anymore for a whole cadre of naming agencies. I think the way AI search is going to start to work, the diminishing importance of websites and SEO, all of that's going to lead to the folks that are really top notch, one, two, maybe third place, but let's say the first and second, they're the ones that get all the attention. They're the ones that are going to have the content out there, so they're going to get the eyeballs. And it'll be tough, I think, for other folks to undercut them and still provide the same great ideas that they can create. So competition's going to be tough for sure,

Ashley Elliott (11:01):

And

Mike Carr (11:01):

We are trying of course, to stay on top of that.

Ashley Elliott (11:03):

Right, exactly. I think the competition is tougher. The AI landscape makes it difficult to navigate if you're not ahead of the game. What do you see right now is the biggest problem based on your experience, the biggest problem that we're currently facing in the industry and how to solve it?

Mike Carr (11:20):

I think that there is a lack of data and a lack of appreciation of really good hard data. And this has always been a problem naming. I mean, we've had a lot of competitors over the years that have said, you're wasting your money if you try to test how effective a name is going to be. And we've never agreed with that. We used to be part of Nielsen, the market research firm before we started this company, and so we were grounded in the importance of not just any kind of data, but clean data and enough of it, so you actually have a statistically valid result in your quantifiable data. So focus groups give you great qualitative, and there's still a place for focus groups or getting a group of folks around a table and talking through ideas that can be invaluable. But when it comes to naming, you really need a larger sample across the country or across the globe, depending upon your market of the people that are going to be targeted in not ask the question, what do you think of a name?

(12:12):

Because you're going to get a biased response, but rather look at their reactions to names, really how people, that's the most important data point we believe people react to names, they don't think about names, at least not initially. And so having a way to assess how quickly are folks going to react to a name? Are they reacting to the name the right way? Does it fit what you want it to fit in terms of associations and emotions and all that kind of stuff? That's just hugely important, and I think that's a problem that's becoming harder and harder to solve because of this acceleration of marketing and this desire to get to market quicker, to spend less on some of these launches and into short circuit or shortchange, some of the really good solid thinking and data collection and data analysis that needs to go into the process

Ashley Elliott (13:01):

With AI too. It can make you seem like, I can do that industry. I'm just going to use AI and it'll help me, and I can springboard myself into an industry, which is not necessarily the way you go about things, although some startups have been successful. I guess my next question would be, what advice would you give to somebody that's aspiring to do a naming agency? Whether as an entrepreneur or being a naming consultant or just a naming expert, what would your advice to them be?

Mike Carr (13:24):

Well, I think pick the area that you have domain expertise in. So pick an area that you have either industry experience in, or maybe it's been your hobby or there's just a natural inclination so you have some knowledge and some expertise they're already bringing to the table with respect to what works, the kinds of people that are in that business space, how they react to not just names, but everything else, imagery, taglines, messaging, colors, the holster bank. If you already have domain expertise, perhaps you were an engineer, or perhaps you were a graphic artist, or perhaps you were someone that sold shoes, whatever it is, then naming in that space or branding in that space is something that I think you have the right to hang a shingle out and can probably add some real value. You can evaluate things from that base of knowledge and experience.

(14:16):

It's very difficult. I think it would be almost impossible these days to do what we did back in 1985 and 1986, which was start a naming business and be industry agnostic. We would have automobile companies come to us, we would have hotels, pharmaceutical companies, and we knew very little about their business. We had almost no knowledge of the intricacies and the nuances in that particular industry segment. Yet we were successful. We were one of the few that were doing it. I don't think you could do that today. I think you really need to bring to the table a little bit more knowledge and understanding of that space before you try to help folks come up with names and the branding strategy that falls underneath or behind the name.

Ashley Elliott (14:57):

Well, that's helpful. I mean, it is a different landscape than it was 40 years ago, even from a naming and trademark perspective. We've talked about that before. So for someone like me who likes to listen on double speed and might've missed some of these amazing points that you had, what is one thing that you want viewers to take away from this interview or one final thought or idea for them?

Mike Carr (15:14):

I think the biggest thing is just to slow down,

Ashley Elliott (15:17):

Not double speed. So I guess I need to go back to single speed and re-listen to this.

Mike Carr (15:21):

Yeah, I think listening to a podcast at double speed is fine, but I think trying to digest what you learned is something that requires some deep thought where you get away from the computer, you turn off your phone, you maybe take a walk, whatever gets your juices flowing, but you really think through what you learn and what the implications are. I think that's probably going to be even more important because we're all faced with so many distractions and we're so used to getting quick answers from AI or whatever it might be, that this quote, need for speed and this need for acceleration seems to cost us a lot in terms of a really thoughtful analytical approach. I think a lot of folks can go very broad, but not very deep, right? With AI and with all these tools, you can get quick answers to just about anything, even subjects you don't know much about.

(16:13):

But it's very superficial, right? It doesn't go very deep down into now, do you understand the implications of that? How do you connect the dots? Where are the implications in terms of the spend that you might want to make in promoting a new product based upon what you've learned across all these different ways to spend those dollars, whether it's on a particular social media platform or in person, or who knows what price off promotions. And so that kind of thinking I think is something that's going to become more important. I think it's tough these days to really do that the right way.

Ashley Elliott (16:44):

I agree. I think specifically in America, I know the speed that we work and working vacations and working, you're always on, whether it's on your phone doing something, or if you have kids doing something, there's always something to be done. So sitting and reflecting sometimes is the hardest thing to do, but the most needed. So I appreciate your time today, Mike. Thank you for answering all these questions. And I may have to listen on 0.5 speed just to make sure I soak in all of these nuggets of wisdom.

Mike Carr (17:06):

Well, and I want to ask you all these questions, Ashley, to get your perspective maybe on the next episode or two. So thank you again for your time, and thanks everybody for listening, and welcome again to another episode of Naming in the AI Age.