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The Retained Search Show
To empower ambitious recruiters to win, and deliver retained searches with confidence and credibility by sharing real stories, proven strategies, and practical insights.
The Retained Search Show
Live Discussion Replay - Retained Search Success in Japan
In this LinkedIn Live replay, Ryan and Paul reveal how they transformed their recruitment businesses by shifting from contingent chaos to retained success, right in the middle of Japan’s notoriously tough talent market.
One hit his annual target by Valentine's Day.
The other landed a $700,000 single fee.
What changed? Everything.
Japan’s recruitment market is no walk in the cherry blossom park, with only 4% LinkedIn usage, a rapidly aging population, and a small pool of globally-minded, English-speaking candidates. Yet Ryan and Paul pushed past fear, self-doubt, and myths about retained work to build smarter, stronger businesses.
Key takeaways:
- Both recruiters emphasized diagnostic skills as critical – deeply understanding client pain before proposing solutions
- Moving to retained required overcoming mindset barriers like fear, lack of confidence, and misconceptions about the process
- Financial impact has been transformative - more predictable revenue, higher fees, and hitting annual targets faster
- Retained work provides better quality of life – being fully present at work and able to completely disconnect when not working
- Clients appreciate the structured process, with one telling Ryan: "I could sleep well at night knowing you had everything under control"
- The shift isn't about working harder but working smarter – "slowing down" to properly diagnose client needs before rushing to solutions
- For those considering the transition: specialize in a niche, be willing to say no to inappropriate work, and focus on proper diagnostics
Whether you're just starting your retained journey or looking to master it, this episode proves the shift isn’t about working harder, it’s about working wiser.
👉 Learn more at www.retrainedsearch.com
Explore Search Foundations for recruiters ready to move to retained, and Search Mastery for those already winning consistent retained work.
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LinkedIn
Connect with Louise: https://www.linkedin.com/in/louise-archer-48612844/
Connect with Jordan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/retainedsearchcoach/
Follow Retrained Search: https://www.linkedin.com/company/retrained-search/
Welcome to Retrained Search, the podcast where we lift the lid on what it's really like to work retained, discuss the stories we've gathered along the way and give you all a peek behind the scenes of our amazing community and how they're getting ahead. Hello, hi, george. Hello.
Speaker 2:You all right.
Speaker 1:I'm good. Yeah, Welcome to our. I can't remember the last time we went live on LinkedIn. It's very exciting.
Speaker 2:I'm a little bit nerve-wracking. A year and a half ago, I think, do you reckon?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're doing kind of masterclasses all the time but never live. So, yeah, it's amazing to have our guests here with us today to talk about a topic that's been more and more prevalent in the last probably 6-12 months for us yeah, we feel really passionately about um favorite members I might have yes, absolutely. Where are they? Are they joining us? Yeah, right on cue right on cue, there we go. We're like, oh, where are the others? Here you are.
Speaker 2:I didn't know whether you could see this, so I was like I was thinking, maybe oh, it's brilliant to have you here.
Speaker 1:Welcome Ryan, welcome Paul. Thank you so much again for joining us today. It was a pleasure. Um, yeah, it's really kind of you. So, first, the topic we're talking about today is making a shift from contingent recruitment to retained. So, firstly, why is this a topic that matters? Why should we be talking about this? I'm going to come to you, ryan, first. Why do you think this is a topic we should be talking about?
Speaker 3:Yeah, why retained Talent, finding people the right opportunities? There's so many different ways to go about it and, speaking for myself in reflection, perhaps I just became brainwashed that there was only one way to go about it contingency. I allowed clients to convince me that Retain wasn't an option until I decided to accept that okay, I don't know how to do this and seek help. And now I can see that people all around the world in the Retrain community are doing all kinds of different roles on Retain, not just C-suite, you know, engineers all the way up to the enterprise leader and everything in between. So that really opened my eyes to the potential that's there and for people to provide solutions. And, as you so well put it, louise, it's, you know, not just headh, just head hunting, but pain hunting, going out there to find problems there's different ways to do that.
Speaker 1:It's just very empowering concept and talking of pain hunting, um, there seems to be quite a bit of that in japan. Paul with talent acquisition, would that be fair to say?
Speaker 4:oh yeah, I mean I can't speak for other markets in detail, but this has always been a candidate short market and it's not getting any better with the population, you know, declining other factors. But I think even for the most, even for a junior search, there's not a lot of candidates you know usually that we're looking at. So every, every employer I would hazard is struggles, I mean, even out of coming out of university it's they're having to do. You know, big companies are having to offer more and more to attract these 21, 22 year olds. Um, just so, um, yeah, like ryan said, from right across the spectrum, from junior up to the senior stuff, this is not enough people and, before we go any further, I'd love it if you guys would be able to introduce yourselves, um in your businesses.
Speaker 1:Um, paul, tell us a bit about who you are and your business. What do you do?
Speaker 4:Thank you. So I started in recruitment here in Tokyo in 2005, and then sort of some some side steps along the way. Myself and a couple of business partners started our firm, which is Just Legal, 11 years ago and, as the name might suggest, we just do legal search for clients here, which is law firms, financial institutions and corporates looking for in-house counsel. But at this point, actually this month, we're going through some expansion and some more change and we're going to be slightly rebranding as just search group to add a few more other professional service functions group to add a few more other professional service functions. What we do is it's pretty much all senior there's a lot of retained work, exclusive work, still some contingent work, and right now it's legal. But the first additional function we're adding is HR and then we'll be looking at other areas like consulting, advisory, sort of sexy stuff like that amazing all right, great to see the growth.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and Ryan, tell us a bit about you and your business. Uh, yeah, I'm Canadian but grew up in Japan more than half of my life, and my entrance to the recruiting world was as an intern in 2008, just before leaving Shock, and that's where Paul must have been one of the first guys I saw walking through the door at that firm.
Speaker 1:No way, I was going to ask if you two knew each other.
Speaker 3:You do know each other, yeah we're brethren and so that environment there really kind of gave me a very clear picture of what great looks like in recruitment, because we were lucky to be working alongside the founder of the company as well, who was with us on the phones opening new accounts, etc. That was 2008. Fast forward to now. I've been with RGF Executive Search for six years. We're part of Recruit. Recruit has many companies and we are the brand dedicated to foreign companies in Japan, and that's really what drives recruitment in Japan is the demand for bilingual talent, which is only a sliver of the market Now. There's 60-odd million people in the workforce in Japan, so a lot of global executives will look at Japan thinking, ah, there must be an abundance of talent there. The reality is that a very small fraction speaks English and an even smaller fraction has the global mindset that global companies need here in Japan, which creates a lot of pain.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Yes, it's such an interesting market and I've worked in quite a lot of overseas market and nothing quite as unique as Japan so far. So tell us a bit, if you will, Paul, about how you were working. How were you working with your clients typically or as kind of standard? What was your kind of go to model and what was it like working on that basis?
Speaker 4:so it was mainly contingent. This is going back, you know, 10 plus even 15 years ago. I did my first retained search back in like 2000 and I want to say six or seven. And looking back now, and you know it's easy to say this, but it was really just a contingent process with an upfront fee.
Speaker 4:It was you know, um, I didn't know that at the time, um, but then fast forward, I would always more typically do one, maybe two retained searches a year, but again, that was sort of more glorified, sort of almost exclusive searches on a contingent basis. I wasn't applying the same process I do now. Um, I did the foundations course I think it must have been three to four years ago and, um, to be frank, I probably didn't implement everything immediately as much as I should have, and it took another year or two to um to do so. And then, when I so, our business is just legal, becoming just search group. But under that um we have another brand called definitive consulting, which only does partner searches for law firms.
Speaker 4:Here. It's a global brand, but I'm focused on Japan, and when we took on that business here it was sort of again a retrospect, the perfect timing to just shift to retained only. And I spoke with my partners here and, given how time poor I was already, then they agreed that look, if I'm going to do partner searches, it has to be retained or it doesn't make sense why was that?
Speaker 1:What do you mean? Why would it not make sense?
Speaker 4:Because it's elephant hunting what I'm doing. It's. You know the fees are potentially huge. You know, 10 to maybe 20 times what I used to do, which is great if you can land them. But you know, in the past I'd done searches which would go on for 12 months, 18 months, only for the candidates who reject an offer, for, you know, whatever reason, and you've lost all this time. So you know when you can land the elephant, it's great. You know happy days, but if not, you've just wasted a lot of effort.
Speaker 4:Yeah well you know, to justify the energy I was going to be putting into these, these big deals, um, right, I needed, I needed a commitment from the client. Um, and then there's other benefits that bring. You know that it brings with you know, uh, predictability of a revenue, things like that. So two years ago that started and it took probably the better part of a year to go fully retained. Wow, and here we are.
Speaker 1:And here we are. And for you, ryan, what was it like, what were you doing and why did you make the decision to make changes?
Speaker 3:Yeah well, coming from the same shop as Paul, we were always taught to punch above the belt, to talk to the decision maker, to talk to the president, ideally, and so that's the level that I've always strived to engage with. But with that comes big fees. But if it's contingency, then you know, during COVID I had several instances where I'd have a massive fee that would get to final, only to have the company do a U-turn on entering Japan, or they went through a hiring freeze, restructuring, m&a, whatever, and so I'd have these big juicy, really exciting deals right at final, my pipeline and forecast looking great. Until that email comes, and it's at best I'd get thanks for your hard work.
Speaker 3:So I knew that I'm putting my heart and soul into these searches. I'm wanting to do it in a structured, systematic way.
Speaker 3:I'm kind of freestyling it, though, and I wanted to be able to go out there and be able to spot when is the right opportunity to sell a retainer, because sure, it's not the right solution in every single circumstance.
Speaker 3:But I didn't know how to spot that, I didn't know what those triggers were and how to create that, to create the you know, credibility, showcase, track record and position retained for when it is the right solution and then how to walk the client through it. And you know since then all the golden rules that I've learned through retrained search. You know it's not just one of those that gets it, it's the full chain. You know it's like one where there's that saying we're only as good as our weakest link, or something like that. And I think's the full chain it's like one where there's that saying we're only as good as our weakest link, or something like that. And I think that's certainly true. The more that I practice the principles of the program, the more confident I am, the better service that I can provide and, strangely enough, I feel like opportunities come to me. And so, before starting Retrained I sort of had the belief that like Retrained Search isn't possible in Japan, because clients have told me it's not.
Speaker 3:But as I started filling my head up with the material and the content in Retrained Search and engaging with the community and sharing problems that I was having. Jordan remembers some of these specific conversations where I'd show up to a collab call even without an agenda and I'd be like, ah, you know what I should probably ask about that client meeting where I lost control, and then I'd share that with Jordan. He'd give me something to say, like that silver bullet and writing it down. And then, you know, several of those conversations resulted in retainers and one of them a record biggest deal last quarter. So that you know I had to get through that pain to want help and then seek help and these steps helped paul.
Speaker 2:You've been doing this for a long time, paul. What, what stopped you making this step earlier? Why not do more retained earlier?
Speaker 4:I think probably all in life, but certainly recruitment is, it's pretty much all mindset. You know mindset and work ethic, and I think my mindset wasn't right. I think it was probably I was too fearful, I wasn't confident enough and maybe that's you know, human nature, you've got to sort of do something, and maybe that's just me to know that it works. Because now, you know, I remember when I did the foundation school something Lou said, which at the time I probably didn't. I was like yeah, yeah, whatever, she was like you know selling Thanks.
Speaker 2:Story of my life.
Speaker 4:Story of your life. You know, selling a retainer is easy. It's the delivery that's the hard part. Thinking oh, no, no, no, no delivery. You know I can do that all day, every day. You know, give me the work.
Speaker 1:Nobody listens to me when I say that. Until they get there.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and then you sell something that's just a nightmare. Yeah, so yeah, I don't know. I think it was a natural process. My mindset has just shifted along the way to now.
Speaker 1:There are a lot of fears, though, aren't there. Like you know, you talked about there being a lot of fears around retained, and I mean, those are the things that I hear when I talk to people, um, that are struggling with the things that you talk about, ryan, that are working on loads of stuff and then just having fees just you know, disappear before their eyes and and how frustrating that is. And I ask them like well, why aren't you working retained like what are? Were there fears there for you, ryan as well? Were there? Were there worries about it?
Speaker 3:I didn't know how it worked. And right, paul knows how many great people that we've, that that I've been around in my career, that we've been around, you know, from since the earlier day, and a lot of them have gone on to establish very successful retained only firms. I worked alongside with them but for some reason I just didn't get that piece. I see them selling, I hear about it in the office environment, but I needed to see it in granular detail, step by step, to see ah, okay, that's how you do it. And so then you know and I, the retainers that I was running before the course were never ending. They were a burden, they were stressful and I wasn't even sure if I wanted more of them.
Speaker 3:honestly, yes, that's so common and we don't have a timeline and we just want to find the best person and all this and I had to realize that I hadn't diagnosed that well enough. In the beginning I wanted the retainer, but then hearing you know the granular detail that the course provides on, like what to say in a steering call and how succinctly Jordan's been able to share exactly what to say in certain circumstances, helped me to see exactly how to do it and actually how simple it can be when this big goal filling a retainer is broken down into tiny steps that are actually very achievable and very practical on a day-to-day basis. So people ask me like Ryan, are you working harder? And funnily enough, I don't feel like I'm working harder because I know exactly what I have to do.
Speaker 1:Are you enjoying this so far? Don't miss a single episode. Hit the subscribe button right now so you can be part of the conversation that's shaping the future of recruitment. So we dive really deep into the strategies, the stories and the truth about retained search. So if you want to hear more about it or you know someone else that needs to hear this, then share it with them. Right, let's get back to the good stuff. Yeah, and with you, paul, like well, you know, you talked about the mindset piece and how that was a barrier really for you. What's it like for you now, then? How is your mindset different to how it was before?
Speaker 4:I'm definitely more focused on the customer. I mean, we do a good job, we deliver, the money for us, that's that's. We shouldn't focused on the customer. I mean we do a good job, we deliver, the money follows. We shouldn't focus on the money. I think Often now my client meetings are just calls or lunches, whatever I'm having with potential clients.
Speaker 4:It's just a natural conversation, and then if there is a problem they have, then it may be that some sort of retained solution, you know, should be something they could think about. Um, but it's not. It's almost never me pressing it or saying this is the only option. It's just like have you considered it? For these reasons, this is where it could help. Um, if we go down this other path, then have you thought about the problems that may arise there? So it's and that just makes things more fun as well Instead of going in with some, you know, hell bent on selling something, just going to listen and to find out where their problems are. I guess people would say that's consultative. I don't know, but I think of the customer more first and I try to highlight where stuff can go wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, nice. And what's different for you now, ryan? You talked about the way life was before, and you know how it was a bit sounds a bit like a gamble, really, on what was actually going to come in and what wasn't, and you're kind of hoping and crossing your fingers and hoping that things, kind of you know, come out in the wash. What's different for you now? What's that journey resulted in?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I mean, I came back from Christmas break having 10 days or so off. The brain was off. Time to switch the brain back on and you know where am I again and then see where I am with the retainers. I had family day in the park and I'm waiting for wondering if that guy's going to take my offer next week to get that full fee or not. So I feel really empowered, I feel clear, I feel like I can be fully present in what I'm doing and fully switch off when I'm not at work and be there, you know, be, be there for my family, etc.
Speaker 3:Um, it's really cool to be able to forecast revenue because I know that when the contract is signed, I know that I'm confident.
Speaker 3:Now I'm gonna have a short list to deliver in in four to six weeks. You know science and I'm just getting to the point now where I'm working with resources internally to streamline that so that you know, inspired by the book, buy Back your Time, really to focus on what you love doing and are good at. I love getting on the phone to find those 10 people to ask for referrals, to get those gems that wouldn't come up otherwise, that perhaps have more EQ than the IQ, that the search you know CVs that wouldn't come up, that that only a human network can really manifest. And then have my team doing parts that they love, like some of them are really good at sending LinkedIn messages and they have great in mail responses and others are great automation and setting up a you know long listing that that works within our realm of compliance. So, yeah, it's just really cool to now be like working on the business, whereas last year it was like working in the business trying to get the first few.
Speaker 1:What about the financial impact? Has it had a financial impact on you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean BD was taking me longer than other people. In the course, from what I observed I think I posted like six months ago I had to kind of give myself a pat on the back and be like keep going, ryan, just stay going in the same direction. But the clearest way I could put it is you know, last year I barely hit my target and this year, by Valentine's Day, I hit my target.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 3:That's incredible. I love the fact that irrespective of the market.
Speaker 2:The challenges are nuanced, right, but the benefits of working retained, I think, are pretty consistent across the board. Like, everyone has the same wins when they make a success of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like a happier life, more time in your mind, more time with the family, forecastable revenue and then actual financial bottom line and it's nice that that came last from your answer, that I kind of had to provoke that that it's your well-being and, you know, your time with your family that came first and I love that. Um things, um, are things different for you, paul, from that perspective, has there been a financial impact on you making the transition?
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, just before I answer that I mean, my wife obviously hasn't seen me do this business for a long time and forever. She would be like why does it work like this? I don't get it, you work for free, I don't get it, you work for free, I don't get it. So when I started doing more retained work and talking about it, she's like well, yeah, I don't understand the big deal. It makes sense to me, so you sort of need that outside independent advisor to be like oh yeah, this system is sort of messed up, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It's so messed up's sort of messed up, isn't it?
Speaker 4:it's so messed up, it's so messed up and look only when I'm being a bit cheeky or when I I don't know. Maybe I just don't care. You know clients a certain type of client will be like well, no, every other agent works. You know, this is how they work. And I'm like do you work for your clients for free?
Speaker 4:and it's really funny to see the reaction. Some people are like you know, you know how dare you? And others are just like it's a really good point, um, but yeah, financially, like I couldn't, I don't think I could have shifted to just partner only work without the retained approach I would have. I think I would have given in within a year. Um, given in within a year, um, you know, from a uh, you know, japanese point of view. This, you know, I think everyone here is probably focused on japan. You know, consistently, my like my best year before. I've never cracked 100 before this year and we're sort of this is our fourth month and I've already done that and more. We've got a long way to go.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, I mean, we had a call. It was only a few days ago, I think, wasn't it, and can we talk about that? I mean, I like literally nearly fell off my chair. I had to ask you to repeat yourself about four times because I wasn't sure that I'd heard you right. Can you share that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean that was um. The fee was, you know, 700 000 us um for one deal, um. And there's other stuff in the in the pipeline where the fees will be like 60, 70 million yen um, but this stuff takes like a year. So you know, you you've got to have that, not just the confidence, but you need the system in which you're doing those searches um to be able to take them on and not sort of lose you, lose your cool, you know, yeah, I'm going back to what you said earlier.
Speaker 2:You couldn't, you couldn't have added that value on a continued basis because of the risk that 12 months in there go oh really sorry, paul or without a full account or what you know, whatever it might be yeah, it's like we like you, though.
Speaker 4:It's like thanks, yeah, and looking back, you know you're a nice guy, um it's. You know it's so cliche probably, but, um, I've wasted so much energy over the last. You know, know, 18, 19 years on searches that led to nothing. And you know I'm not in the like money's not number one. But you know, when you're not helping any candidate secure a role and you're not helping the client solve their issues, then it just gets really frustrating. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't think of every time I hear you know, the more and more I learn about the Japanese market, the more I think it makes less sense than any other market that I have ever been involved with to work on a no-win, no-fee basis. It just doesn't seem to make any sense at all. But I totally understand that biggest fear that well, if it is so difficult which is obviously why it's so difficult to work on a contingent basis or part of the reason then why would you want to take a retainer? Because there's that whole risk that you know you might not, you might not fill it, that's a journey that you know I've been going on for several years and still, you know, still am Go on Jordan.
Speaker 2:I always think the best places to position and sell retain solutions are probably markets that are difficult to hire.
Speaker 1:Oh, a hundred percent. Japan is one of them right.
Speaker 2:I can't think of any japanese recruiter I've worked with that hasn't been successful you know, there's something I heard the other day.
Speaker 3:This this point and that is, you know, doing bd to a new client, a big company. Hr had said they might have something really critical and senior coming up. Okay, what methods are you gonna use? Oh, we're gonna use agents as possible and we need to cast the net really wide on this one. Meanwhile, another client competitor you know I'm doing a search on retained last year and they're saying that the role had been was aged, it had been open for too long. That's why they decided to retain it, and candidates were telling me that they had heard the role from five to six agents. So to hear that from the candidate experience and then hear that comment from an HR head of a competitor just shows that there's a massive gap.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point, ryan, because you know, I think some clients really underestimate how that can cheapen their reputation and the role. And when it's a market like any well, anything frankly, mid to senior, where there's so you know, such a limited number of candidates, if they hear about the same role five or six times, they're just like, well, what's wrong with that company? What's wrong with that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and best case scenario is when we got to go in and get a proxy statement and fight over ownership and like who wants? Who wants to fight those battles? Right, unless it's? You know, a name that's come up in previous working is in a briefing meeting then okay, then it. Then it makes sense that's much more strategic, but otherwise it's just a waste of time and horrible branding to everyone involved.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, what, what, what's your feeling then when you're taking on a project? Do you have that fear that you won't fill it, or how does that feel Because that's a huge barrier for a lot of people and a reason why they wouldn't want to work on a retained basis? Do either of you kind of have that same fear, or how do you approach that?
Speaker 4:I think you have to be very clear about expectations. I mean, if again there could be a request we get and I know there are less than you know a dozen candidates, um, you know, in that situation I may not even want to take on a retained search. Um, maybe it depends. It depends on their flexibility and and what happens if those 12 people or 10 people are not interested at all? Um, so I just think you need to be very clear at the beginning with the client about expectations and limitations.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, me too.
Speaker 3:I think the secret really lies in the diagnostic, which is something that I'm really prioritizing right now to get better at, to really empathize with that pain, because it's so easy to just skip the part about the business and talent acquisition methods and just go straight into the pitch. It's so easy to do that, and so it takes a conscious effort at least for me to slow down and really ask myself, like, do I really understand the implications that you know the pain that the client's in right now, and then you know, I think in retrospect, if I would have done that better. There's a couple of retainers I wouldn't have taken on the one without the timeline, yeah, where there was a couple internal candidates that I didn't propose to put through my, our competence assessment.
Speaker 3:So, um, I'm I'm very confident that the more that I practice that diagnostic and do role plays with my team et cetera, that that's where the secrets lie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I completely agree with you both. It's about what happens if the ideal profile that they really want isn't, isn't possible to land right now. If that's a you know, non-negotiable or that's okay, well, you know, we've, we've done this and we've decided that actually, yeah, they're not ready, none of them are ready to make a move. That's fine, that's all we needed to do. I remember doing a search for SABIC and that was the case, and I was devastated because they didn't make a hire and they were like no, we just needed to know whether any of these people were ready. And they're not.
Speaker 3:And that's cool and in some cases it's been internal misalignment and seeing firsthand a batch of stakeholders like having four stakeholders on the call have a different opinion of what a part of the job description means and they're looking at each other and I'm trying to just keep a professional face, but seeing firsthand the chaos that is behind the scenes. But seeing firsthand the chaos that is behind the scenes If you guys can't fill it on a retained basis, with giving the space the time, the partnership, the commitment.
Speaker 1:No one's going to fill it. No one can. Yeah, that's it. We've got some questions, aaron. We'd love those questions. Thank you very much. Here we go, andre. Has there been a time when you've converted a client to agree on a retainer that had, up until that time, was against retainers, and how did you do it? Interesting Paul, you're nodding. We'll give this one to you. We'll come to you first.
Speaker 4:Hey, andre, cheers for the question. Yeah, there was one recently, late last year. There's a client I'd worked with for over a decade and I've made I don't know how many placements with him. Seven or eight placements, great client, great communication. But and he had agreed in principle to a retained approach a couple of times and it never we never got pen to paper.
Speaker 4:So what got us over the line at the end was just like Ryan said, just doing a better diagnostic and understanding that for them they're a law firm. It was this fear that they may get this amazing candidate dropping into their inbox, and giving us exclusivity under a retained approach would maybe put them at risk of paying two fees. So I just had to flex on that point and say, okay, look, we can take away that exclusivity if you're otherwise in agreement. And I think just what you said before, jordan, I mean I'm backing myself and the team that we're still going to find the people for them and make the placements. I mean this particular firm hasn't they've never hired this level in Tokyo in a long, long time, so the chances of them getting this, yeah, I'll take that risk on.
Speaker 4:So, it was just listening to them and digging a bit deep, Andre, probably overlooking something I'd been ignoring in the past.
Speaker 3:Yeah, hey, Andre, great question. I had a case where a client had never used a retainer before for the level of role that we were proposing for. They had only received one CV in three months. So the key line that helped us to get the HR head in agreement was clearly the methods used so far haven't yielded.
Speaker 2:This is the way it's done. We say that a lot don't we Lauren's, who I think we all know is in the chat and has put Ryan Shepard is unreasonably good-looking, as usual. I'm assuming that the next part Louise Paul and me, lauren's is just.
Speaker 1:All right, we're not.
Speaker 2:A bit further down as a scroll. I'm hoping, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I wouldn't be a party with Lauren's.
Speaker 1:Hello Ryan and Paul Benjamin says, as someone's just starting out in retain recruitment, what common mistakes do new recruiters make and how can they avoid them?
Speaker 3:great question, great question yeah, I can chime in. Um, I think it's being selfish and insecure that I need this more than the client needs this. And when we can slow down and go through that diagnostic, you know, go through the 10-point plan of talking a bit about the person, how the business is going, how TA chimes in with that, then the position. But it's so easy to just go into the position to figure out if we have a candidate in our head or not and then boom, we're in the contingency trap again. So slowing down and really learning how to this gets me really excited, because it's exactly what I'm working on right now. But really learning how to connect to the pain that clients.
Speaker 3:And something I've been doing recently is reconnecting with hiring managers of candidates I placed years ago. That may not have been on the retained, but I really want to get better at being in touch with the impacts that our placement, our completed searches, are making, so I can be better in tune with that in the future as well. So slow down, get really good at it. Learn to love diagnosing that pain with clients. Get really good at learn to love diagnosing that pain with clients. Um, I hope that doesn't sound preachy because again there's that. I'm working on this myself, but that's the one thing I'd say yeah, that was brilliant advice really good, very good.
Speaker 1:What would you say, paul? What biggest mistakes do people make? Or did you make like I can share so many I've made?
Speaker 4:oh yeah, I've made a lot, but a couple of uh ones that I ones that come to mind immediately. One is you know we've talked about within reason. I think it's easy to sort of get a retainer to just be careful. What you wish for, like do a proper diagnostic and before you decide to even raise that or suggest it, and yeah, because you know worse than having no retained work is having the wrong retained work, because that will go and cut into your sleep. And the other one is saying no, like I think too many recruiters. They may say they specialize in this area or that, but a lot of recruiters are just too general. And if that's your business strategy, fine, but I think find your niche and stick to it and be very clear on what you do and do it really, really well.
Speaker 4:So, if a client you know is offering you a retainer on something that's not in your wheelhouse, I'm not saying don't do it, but just think very carefully and ensure you can actually feel that before you take it on, say no. It's very, very few recruiters, I think, in this market who say no to work. More should do so more should do so.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's another. Someone was asking about how to get new clients to come to see the value in a retainer and one of those is is the credibility giving track record and firms that don't even have much track record and retained search but do have, you know, marquee placements that are relevant and that they worked really hard on and that they really invested a lot of time and resources into it counts a lot. Saying, hey, we have a track record in space, for example. This company this is the challenge is a result, company challenge result, right, just like star method for competency-based assessments and preparing our candidates for interviews. You know my strength is a, for example, b, for it can go a long way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, nice, Very nice. What's the future for you guys? Paul, you talked a bit about an evolution of your business and the next and the future for you, Now that you're consistently winning well, the most lucrative work you ever have won and closed where does this take you, um?
Speaker 4:thankfully, you know, it gives me sort of clarity of mind and and also in our strategy to um, to know what I can do and what I should be focusing on in terms of my sales, my, you know, the clients I'm helping at the moment, but the next step would be to help our group, you know, do better in this regard. We have our own internal metrics in terms of what we want to achieve as a group for retained work. It's not this quarter, it's going to be over the next three years, but, yeah, there's a clear goal there that we want to. I mean, I can share it with one of the two thirds retained or exclusive, with like a real exclusive search with a sort of financial penalty across the group. So and that doesn't mean sort of partner searches only it could be head of legal, but it could be, you know, compliance manager. It could be some sort of consultant, and this is going to take time, but that that be compliance manager, it could be some sort of consultant.
Speaker 1:And this is going to take time, but that's the longer or the midterm goal. How about you, Ryan? What's the future now that you're? Are you all working more retained now, Ryan, or is it still a bit of contingent work?
Speaker 3:I'm only focused on retained now. Retained now, well done, just kind of I've allowed my I've intentionally brainwashed myself last year to anything that's not retained worthy just to block it out and ignore it. Essentially, future vision. You know I'm a healthcare and life sciences recruiter, which is a huge industry in the world, in Japan, and it's a very important one for people's health as well, of course. But Japan's got a problem. We have an aging population. It's not the only country in the world with an aging population, but it is the most advanced aging population and a low birth rate, which means the talent pool is getting smaller every day. So there's a big opportunity in Japan for healthcare and life science companies. The market is big it's second or third largest in the world for most markets but there's just not enough talent and it's only going to get harder. So my vision is to take what I've learned and first share the principles and the processes with my team so that we can expand capacity to take on more searches and then ultimately look for bigger and bigger problems.
Speaker 3:So you know, if we think about all those CEOs, the general managers, japan presidents of all the you know top US, european healthcare and life science companies in Japan. A clear trend is many of them are at or near retirement, in some cases past retirement, and their successors overdue. So whether we're replacing them directly or helping them find leaders that could be a ready in two, ready in five GM. Those are still roles in searches and in healthcare and life sciences. Even though the market market industry is huge, the skill sets are relatively small, because we're talking about oncology or immunology and it gets very disease-oriented, which requires a search. And in Japan usage of LinkedIn is only 4% of the population compared to 50% in the US. So direct sourcing just doesn't work as well in Japan as it does globally. No, of course it doesn't, Paul?
Speaker 1:what advice would you give to somebody listening to this if they want to take the first step to working on a retained basis and they're mainly contingent or all contingent at the moment? What's one piece of practical advice that you would give them?
Speaker 4:what's one piece of practical advice that you would give them? I mean, other than the obvious?
Speaker 4:like talk to you guys, I would say, just start asking your clients better questions, like when you're talking with your clients. This is not tough stuff, but just like you know what problems do you have right now? What have you tried you know? Have you tried this? Problems do you have right now? Um, what have you tried you know? Um, have you tried this? Have you tried that? Um, you know, just dig in more to their business. You know what challenges do you see coming to the line, what, what you know where's the business going? People love talking about like we all love talking about ourselves, and then I think the next thing would be business or our jobs, um, so I think, ask the clients better questions and I think people will be amazed at what comes out of just just that simple practice right.
Speaker 2:I'm going to slightly change the question for you. What would you say to anybody listening to us today that has limiting beliefs, that thinks they can't do this or it's not right in the japanese market?
Speaker 1:and people do say that lots of people say that i's not right in the Japanese market, and people do say that.
Speaker 3:Lots of people say that I mean. The fork in the road for me was when I heard someone say there's two recruiters one's working 15 jobs and fills two of them, and the others work in five jobs, and five jobs exclusively, and fills four of them. Which one do you want to be? You want to be, you know, have the convenience of no commitment, but that comes at the cost of having unpredictable revenue stress that affects health and it just cascades. So if you're working on contingencies right now and you're happy with the way things are going, great, all the power to you.
Speaker 3:If you're not and you want to discover a different way of working where you can get paid, you can enjoy it. And for me, one of the most fulfilling pieces is just being on steering calls with these decision makers, sharing with them what's going on in the market, answering questions factually Not my opinion, but factually, unless I'm asked for my opinion. So, if that resonates with you, consume as much of the retrained search content that you possibly can until you or your company can, you know, get you enrolled.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we've just rolled out a new initiative as well. I probably shouldn't talk about that. It's probably under wraps.
Speaker 1:Well for those of you listening, we have. We just done our 90 day meeting as a team and we've come up with a new initiative to help those people that want to self fund through our training. That makes it much easier, because I know some people do. And, ryan, you know we, um, you know we, we would have worked together a lot earlier, I think, had had we had, uh, you know, that option. Um, looking back, what's one thing that you wish you'd known before making the change? I'll leave this to Ryan, I think.
Speaker 3:First, no, Nothing, no surprises. I'm not sure I would have known. I can share what that kind of aha moment was for me when I went from. You know I want to do retainers, but I know it's going to be so much work because these things never end. No, they can end. You know assessment and it's possible that by week four we've exhausted the research just by executing a process, not by spending all night on LinkedIn spinning wheels that's not how it is. It's following a process so that by week four we can say all right, search is complete, now it's time to walk the client and the candidates through the hiring process until the decision is made.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's time essentially yeah, I agree, I agree completely. I think for me, like I which I think is really relevant for japan because I've worked in some very difficult markets my perception was that when you take the retainer, you commit to filling the position, and and realizing that that isn't the case and actually you're committing to executing a process just relieves so much pressure. I mean, yes, of course we're all driven to get a result in the form of a placement if that's possible. But actually it might be that the client doesn't want to flex or doesn't want to hire the next best thing, and if the best thing isn't available, they just decide not to, and that's okay, that's on them, that's their decision.
Speaker 1:That's not that I failed. I still executed the process and put them in that position and that's a huge mindset shift for me and made me realize that actually I can take on pretty much anything, providing, like Paul says, you've done the diagnostic and the client is okay with either flexing or accepting that they're. They aren't going to be able to make a hire because it won't be perfect. And if they don't want to flex them, that's okay, that's down to them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's not that a person from us has to be appointed into the role for it to be a success. Like I had a search recently that the client had an internal candidate. From the beginning, we proposed that we can take them through our assessment process so they had a consistent and objective way of assessing candidates, which we did, and in the end, although they really liked the candidates I had put forward, they went for the internal candidate, but we still got a majority of the minimum. We still got a majority of the fee. You know, I asked my counterpart there you know, can I get some feedback? Like what was the? Even though you didn't, the successful candidate wasn't from us what was the most valuable thing about this and what about our service? And he said, ryan, I could sleep well at night knowing that every step of the way, you had everything under control, and that's thanks to all the tools and resources that I follow from Retrain.
Speaker 1:Search.
Speaker 3:Following the briefing.
Speaker 1:You're our new poster boy. Poster boy right, by the way, just saying it works.
Speaker 3:I mean it's been such a lot? Yeah, exactly it's been such a a burden off my shoulders like, yeah, I'm really. I'm really passionate to share that with other people and how, when we fought the trusted process, beautiful things can happen. And what the guy said was ryan, I could sleep well at night knowing you had everything under control, but we're using a Shrek firm in this other country and I am not convinced they know what they're doing.
Speaker 1:That's a whole different subject. And any final questions for us, or Ryan or Paul, before we let you go? We had a few earlier. Ah, here we go. Moments ago, ryan stated the gaps when a search is aged in past four or five agencies. What would be the takeaways for the agency that's now active on the search? Most of the prospects have already been approached and either assessed or have lost their interest.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a good one. What would be the takeaways for the agency that is now active on the search? Okay, so my concern would be that the talent pool is small. Right, because at this kind of mid-senior level let's say, it's director in a big company, it's not mega senior, but it's a little higher than mid-career. The talent pools in Japan are small, yes, but one of the beautiful things about a retainer is that the successful candidate can very often be completely different from the original spec, but they need to go through that journey, go through that pain, see the market and get the context and have that shared internally to be able to come to that conclusion.
Speaker 1:So that is the power of a retainer for research that has already been the market, because agencies might just be contacting all the wrong people yeah, completely and I completely agree and the power of being able to show them all the people that have um, that have been, you know, approached and are now not interested as a result, and therefore the ground that's left to cover when they see that.
Speaker 1:What I often experience I don't know whether you guys have experienced this is that when you take a retainer, it isn't necessarily that you find someone that the other agencies haven't. Sometimes you do because you've got more time and you can spend the time on it, because you've got that financial commitment, but more often than not, you can drive the client to make a hire that they wouldn't have made on a contingent basis. They might have already seen that candidate or been aware of them or disregarded them because they thought they could get something better, whereas when you lay it all out and take them through that process that you're describing ryan, they and and that guy saying you know, I can sleep knowing that you're, you know, you're, you're turning over a stone and that you know that the outcome is going to be the best.
Speaker 1:They then have complete confidence making that decision, even if it isn't exactly what they wanted. They know that it is the best they're going to get, whereas on a contingent basis, of course, they never know that. They never know whether there could be something better yeah yeah, exactly yeah and um.
Speaker 4:one thing we've seen in japan and also, uh, in some other markets, where definitive is is that you know clients, especially hr people, um, but hiring managers will be, you know, they will be told by recruiters that, yeah, yeah, we've gone over the market, we've talked to, we've approached all these people, but it's often not the case, or it's. If people can source using LinkedIn, inmail, whatever good for them, but just because someone sent InMails to the whole market market it may not mean anything, you know, and it may.
Speaker 4:You know five or six agencies looking at it, spamming the market with messages. It may take a retained approach. You know one agent to come in and you know, reach out personally, make those calls, do those meetings. You know people may have heard about this, this role, but they may not have considered it, you know, seriously. Um, so just because it's been open a while, it shouldn't. There's not a reason to necessarily walk away from it. But again it comes back to the diagnostic and, like Ryan mentioned, bringing data to the conversation. Like, do you know the market's been covered or do you just think that because that's what recruiters have told you?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Another thing there's just so much power in the story the employer value proposition. How many recruiters are really sitting down with the hiring manager and talking about okay, I'm your ideal candidate for my competitor and I'm going to uproot my whole life to come work for you. What would you say? How would you sell this? And to be able to tell that story, so that when we do get that candidate who hasn't had time to take calls from all the contingent agents who call once randomly, we have that 30 seconds when they're, you know, hopping out of the taxi to fetch their kids from daycare or whatever, we're able to say that story in a way that lights, lights up a bulb. You know, for me that's really, really fun and that you know the client.
Speaker 3:One of my clients asked a candidate as well like so you're not actively looking, like why'd you meet with us? And he's like right, the brief ryan shared with me was so interesting. I had to. I had to find out if this was true or not and of course it was true.
Speaker 1:Sarah Ryan mentioned a search process lasting four weeks give or take.
Speaker 2:Would love to hear more insight on what steps or process you follow.
Speaker 1:Oh, great question. We have six minutes left, sarah, so sadly we can't go through all of the steps on a retained search process. It will take us a little bit longer than that, as you would expect. But yeah, please book some time in. I think Aaron's been sharing a code. Anybody that's got questions that either doesn't want to ask them in this format or if they want to speak to me Ryan, paul or you I don't want to take up your time time, but if anybody wants to reach out to you, how can can people get hold of you? Can they reach out to you and ask questions? Are you happy with that?
Speaker 3:happy to linkedin's best linkedin amazing.
Speaker 1:Thank you, paul. Is that okay with you too?
Speaker 4:yeah, no, that's all good, that's all good. And just one thing this is a bit of a plug for you guys, but I wanted to mention this because it's something I overlooked when, after I did the course initially was um, you know your team teaches um, you know how to win and how to execute on retainers, which is which is really really valuable. But the part I initially missed was that there's also a huge amount of advice on business development that that we should be doing along, you know, at each stage of the retain process and yeah, maybe it was just me, but I sort of missed that stuff first time everyone misses stuff.
Speaker 1:They watch it like two or three times and go I didn't know that was in there, have you changed it? I'm like no, I've changed anything, I just kind of skip over. You know, like I think you somebody said, was it you, oh, yeah, whatever, you listen to something, go, yeah, whatever. And then you move on and then you listen to it again and like, oh yeah, probably listen to that a bit more. Yeah, thank you absolutely I.
Speaker 3:I hear that so many firms are looking for a bd machine. Well, look no further than the sales module of our train search, because that's all yeah thank you and even thank you.
Speaker 1:The money right over the pool, yeah totally yeah, even like you know the delivery module, there's business development woven into like business development from a search that people overlook the first time, but it's the key to not having to go back to the beginning again with bd that that bd from a search.
Speaker 1:So so, yes, all right. So if you're ready a lovely audience to explore this transition, then please reach out to us, or to Ryan or to Paul. I'd find out more. We'd be delighted to help you and hopefully some of the advice and tips shared today and the stories, more than anything else, has been inspirational and helpful for you. So just to take a minute to thank you, paul, thank you so much for joining us, thank you for sharing your story. And to Ryan, thank you so much for being so transparent in what we know is a really small market.
Speaker 1:So we really appreciate you being kind of you guys really appreciate it sure yeah, and all the best for the future, in the very exciting future of what's to come. I know that this is not the end. This is just the beginning because of all the beautiful things that you can now do on a retained basis. Like ryan alluded to, there's some pipelining, as paul's starting to see in the mastery group, things like mapping and insight studies and competitor intelligence, and, ryan, you'll be in the mastermind soon, I know. And thank you to my fellow co-host, awesome star Jordan as well. So thank you, audience, we'll really look forward to speaking to you.
Speaker 2:Have a good day, everyone Thanks.
Speaker 3:Lee and Jordan.
Speaker 2:Bye.
Speaker 1:See you guys.
Speaker 2:Bye, bye.
Speaker 1:Well, that's another episode of Retrained Search the podcast in the bag. Thanks for listening to our wild tales, linkedin controversies and our top tips on how to sell and deliver Retained Search. Get involved in our next episode. Send in your questions and share your experiences with us by emailing podcast at retrainedsearchcom, and don't be shy. Connect with us on linkedin and come and say hi, we don't bite, unless you're a shrek firm, that is.
Speaker 1:We want to say a special thank you to our retrained members for sharing what's working for them right now and innovating new ways to grow and evolve. It's an incredible community. If you're wondering what exactly we mean when we mention our communities, well, we have two separate programs. Our Search Foundations program is for recruiters who want to learn how to sell and deliver retained search solutions consistently, and we have our search mastery program. That's for business leaders or owners already at 50% retained or more and looking to scale and grow and structure their search firm. We cap memberships to these programs to protect the integrity of the community. If you want access, just talk to us. Okay, thanks for listening. We'll be back very soon with another episode of Retrained Search the podcast.
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