Where Regulations Meet Roots: Local Food in a Complicated System

In this episode, we peel back the many layers of school food procurement—from the complex, regulation‑heavy world that veteran Nutrition Services Director Michael Rosenberger knows all too well, to the on‑the‑ground solutions taking root through Kevin Beltran’s work with the New Mexico Farmer’s Market Program. Together, their stories reveal both the challenges and the possibilities of bringing truly local, culturally relevant foods into school cafeterias. From navigating federal bids to celebrating Indigenous foodways like the Three Sisters, this conversation explores how communities and school systems can bridge the gap between red tape, red chiles and real nourishment.

Transcript

Transcript

Where Regulations Meet Roots: Local Food in a Complicated System

In this episode, we peel back the many layers of school food procurement—from the complex, regulation‑heavy world that veteran Nutrition Services Director Michael Rosenberger knows all too well, to the on‑the‑ground solutions taking root through Kevin Beltran’s work with the New Mexico Farmer’s Market Program. Together, their stories reveal both the challenges and the possibilities of bringing truly local, culturally relevant foods into school cafeterias. From navigating federal bids to celebrating Indigenous foodways like the Three Sisters, this conversation explores how communities and school systems can bridge the gap between red tape, red chiles and real nourishment.

00:00:05 Michelle

Welcome to the Farm to School Podcast, where you will hear stories of how youth thrive and farmers prosper when we learn how to grow, cook, and eat delicious, nutritious local foods in schools across the country.

00:00:15 Rick

And the world. Hi, everybody, we're your hosts - I'm Rick.

00:00:18 Michelle

And I'm Michelle Markesteyn. And we have a very special guest in studio with us, the Michael Rosenberger. That's how I heard him introduce himself.

00:00:28 Rick

Michael Rosenberger, all the way from Texas. Say hello.

00:00:31 Michael Rosenberger

Howdy. How are y’all doing?

00:00:33 Rick

there, see how he leaned into that? He is Texas. So, Michael, in a nutshell, tell us about your whole life in 30 seconds or less. So, like, what did you, what did you, I understand you're semi-retired now, but what have you been up to?

00:00:52 Michael Rosenberger

Man on a mission. 30 years in school food service, including 24 as a director in a medium in one of the largest school districts in the entire country in Texas. And after that, I formed my own business. And my mission in my business is to take, is to help food service directors, food service departments and companies in the K-12 space who want to improve, who want to do a better job but they don't know how.

00:01:26 Rick

Okay. And you're also, I understand you started the Urban School Food Alliance.

00:01:34 Michael Rosenberger

Yeah, Dallas ISD was one of the six founding members of the Urban School Food Alliance. I was not director when Dallas first joined, but I was chairman of the board for three terms  during my time as a director there.

00:01:52 Rick

And so tell us, why should we care about an urban school food alliance? Isn't that for the big major school districts of the world? I'm assuming like Portland, where we're located near, might be fit into that category, but no one else in our state. So what is that about?

00:02:09 Michael Rosenberger

Yeah, the Urban School Food Alliance was started by 6 very large, six of the largest school districts in the entire country. And it was formed because the needs of directors of very, very large complex districts are so different from the needs of directors of medium or small districts. Not saying any one is better or worse than the other, but just the needs are unique. And so the alliance was formed organically by 6 directors coming together organically.

00:02:44 Rick

Organically! This is a farm to school podcast.

00:02:46 Michelle

So yeah, but we're production and scale neutral.

00:02:48 Rick

So OK, got it. Yeah, we are. Continue, Michael. Sorry.

00:02:53 Michael Rosenberger

Yeah. So it was started by 6 very visionary directors with the goal to create an organization that meets the needs of directors of large complex urban school districts across the entire country.

00:03:12 Michelle

Which is awesome. And we will interview them in a special, in another episode. But one of the things that I'm curious about with them, and we don't have to talk about their specific example, but is the focus on procurement. And the reason why that's the topic of our discussion today is because, with farm to school, there's this big question of like, come on, why is it so hard to buy local food? Why is it so hard to buy grapes from your local farmer? Why is it so hard to buy tamales from your local food maker?

00:03:46 Rick

And excuse me, I'm eating a Ted Lasso bar.

00:03:49 Michelle

Okay, if you haven't had Rick's shortbread, it's to die for.

00:03:53 Michael Rosenberger

You're missing something.

00:03:54 Rick

If you've seen the show Ted Lasso, he brings in, he always has this thing where he brings in his shortbread cookies for the boss. We'll put in the show notes. I'll put it in the recipe.

00:04:03 Michelle

Put your recipe in the notes.

00:04:04 Rick

Yeah, okay. That's so good. Anyway, but what you said, it is really, it strikes home because I was a director at a small and a medium and a semi-large school district in Oregon. And Michael was a school district in a mega, mega, one of the biggest school districts in the country.

00:04:24 Michelle

And that's why I want you guys to answer this question.

00:04:25 Rick

And procurement is.. it's I've heard it's difficult for small ones for some reasons, because they can't find it. For medium and small, medium to medium large school districts, because they can't find the local to outfit their whole schools. And I don't even have a clue about the mega school districts. I'm sure it's different too. So, Michael, we asked you the question, like, what were some of the biggest challenges that you faced for this stuff?

00:04:52 Michael Rosenberger

Well, the biggest challenge on procurement for a food service department begins with, there are three layers of regulations that you have to adhere to. So if you think of an onion, it has multiple layers, right? So on procurement, you have federal guidelines that you have to follow. Your state may have unique guidelines that the state agency has put into place. And then your local school district or your local parish or county school, whatever your subdivision is, may have additional regulations. And so you have 3 levels of regulations that you have to walk through and that you have to, there's no option. You have to check all the boxes on all three levels. And anything that has multiple hoops that you have to jump through, becomes automatically more complex. I mean, you as an individual can go to your local home goods, home repair store, and whip out your credit card and purchase anything that you want to. But at a school district, again, you have 3 levels of regulations that you have to adhere to, no ifs, ands, or buts. The penalties for not adhering to the requirements on those 3 levels are incredible. And so it slows everything down.

00:06:28 Rick

And I can imagine it being from a smaller school district, it was a little easier for me to do procurement procurements, because we had what you called your micro purchase, you know, for things under 10,000 or 15,000, depending on the state or, you know, you always have the most stringent apply, whether it's the federal or the state standard. But, and then most of our stuff was done over that micro-purchase, so it was informal. And so I would get quotes, and just, I'd have to do my due diligence, write it down, put it in a file. But for you, I'm assuming every single one of your purchases was what we called a formal, where you had to do bids, seal bids or whatever. And for every item in a mega school district, because it's over that formal dollar amount of $250,000 or whatever it is, right?

00:07:21 Michael Rosenberger

I mean, my last school district where I was director, our annual budget was $100 million for our department.

And so every procurement, essentially every procurement fell under the formal procurement guidelines where you have to put out a formal bid, you have to get responses, you have to analyze the responses, award the bid. And for every step through that in a large bureaucratic school district, there are multiple gatekeepers within the school districts. You have legal that has to look at things. You have procurement that has to look at things. And you're checking all these boxes off, again, at the federal, state, and local level. So it makes things very complex. It makes things slow. to happen. 

00:08:14 Michelle

And has that complexity decreased or increased over time in the nearly 30 years you have been a nutrition services?

00:08:24 Michael Rosenberger

Well, it has definitely grown in complexity. In fact, I often get asked, what's the single biggest problem in school food service, K-12 public school food service? And what I say is the growth of regulation. So let me visualize this. When I first got into school food service 30 years ago, the regulations were printed annually by our state department,  and it was about a one inch thick publication. And a one inch thick publication, you can reasonably read and reasonably know everything that's in there. The year I left, Being a school district employee, I calculated that if you were to print off from our state agency all the regulations, all the advisories, all the clarifications, all the regulations, it would take four three inch binders. So that's the problem. And I mean, ultimately, the regulations have gone the way of the tax code. Nobody knows what the regs are. It's so complex. And the challenge is that the food service director in a rural part of America with two or three schools is held to that same standard. as a food service director in an operation in a large district with 200 support staff to help you.

00:09:57 Rick

I'm glad you mentioned that. This is kind of a cool dichotomy because my first gig as a school food service director was in Dallas, Oregon, 6,000 people. And I think we, I've heard that we were a Dallas before Dallas, Texas was a Dallas. I don't know if that's true or not.

00:10:15 Michelle

But anyway, I feel like them fighting words at this kitchen table.

00:10:20 Michael Rosenberger

Look out partner, look out.

00:10:22 Rick

Look out. But no, I don't know. It's a brother brotherhood now. It's all right. So, but it was just me for when I started out. I didn't even have an admin assistant. And then at halfway, by the time I left, I had a part-time person that helped me for four hours. But it was just me doing the same things that Michael did at Dallas, the Big Brother Dallas, Texas. But of course, you would have a team of people too. But I would have to have those same standards in place and stuff. It was really a daunting. It's a daunting. And I mentioned it too to the food service directors around here. Since I've left 15 years ago, I was like, I can't do what you guys do anymore. It was like, it's amazing. And I don't think the general pop, Gen. pop knows what, you know, what the food service director has to do, you know?

00:11:15 Michelle

And so all that was our introduction to say procurement is complex. and people figure out different things. And the reality is, we are working within, I don't want to be a broken system, but like a system of regulations, layered regulations, braided regulations that do not necessarily meet the goals of what people would like out of school food now. It works for what it was meant to do, but it's not where we need to be. So we'll be talking more about that in the future, and there's a lot of people working on it. And in the meantime, I have been meeting with people when we were at the Albuquerque 2025 National Farm to Cafeteria Conference, and I wanted to introduce you both and everyone listening, thank you for listening, to Kevin Beltran from the New Mexico Farmers Market Association, who does the approved supplier program. So it's just a bright spot in this confusing sea of procurement regulations, and I really hope you enjoy meeting him.

00:12:21 Michelle

Hey, Kevin, hello.

00:12:23 Kevin Beltran

How's it going?

00:12:23 Michelle

Great. Well, thanks for joining our special edition of this podcast at the 2025 National Farm to Cafeteria Conference. We would love for you to introduce yourself and tell us what you're up to.

00:12:37 Kevin Beltran

Yeah, so my name is Kevin Beltran. I'm from the Pueblo of Zuni here in New Mexico. Currently I work with the New Mexico Farmers Marketing Association under the Approved Supplier Program. So essentially what that is, we're working with local farmers and ranchers to sell to state institutions like senior centers and schools.

00:12:57 Christy Sherding

That's fantastic.

00:12:58 Kevin Beltran

Yeah, and we work across the state. So basically from the northern point all the way to the southern point, out west, and then all the way out east.

00:13:06 Michelle

It sounds incredible. Can you paint more of a picture of us of the nuts and bolts? Like what does that actually look like? Do you get, is it like a food hub where you get in from?

00:13:15 Kevin Beltran

Yeah, so we work with food hubs. So essentially what we are doing is we're supporting the producers, which are the farmers and ranchers. We are supporting them with food safety training, which is kind of my role at the Approved Supplier Program. And just really making sure that the food they're growing is kind of... up to the standard knowing that the food they're supplying to is going to people with maybe possible weakened immune systems like young children or elders. So for us at least, we're trying to get people up to the understanding and the kind of knowledge of growing to know that food is safe going into those places.

00:13:46 Michelle

So they need support on food safety and then also institutions tend to need like different pack sizes or different sizes of produce. Do you also support producers in that way?

00:13:58 Kevin Beltran

So we support them on that end. We do stuff around, some of the boxes that we support, supply to some of the producers. So it's kind of a mix match of all of the things. But the New Mexico Farmers Marketing Association also helps with Double Up Food Bucks, which is spending EBT and that's going through like food, farmers markets.

00:14:17 Michelle

What's that? EBT and what is that?

00:14:19 Kevin Beltran 

Yeah, so that's for people who have low income and they're able to get money. So Double Up Food Bucks basically is kind of allowing them to get double the amount at a farmers market. when they use that type of purchasing.

00:14:31 Christy Sherding

That's fantastic. How long has that been going on?

00:14:33 Kevin Beltran

That's been going for a while. I've been with the New Mexico Farmers American Association for about a year and a half.

00:14:39 Christy Sherding

Congratulations.

00:14:40 Kevin Beltran

Thank you. Yeah. But before that, yeah, I've been, you know, in agricultural work more on a community-based level. So I've worked with tribal communities, For instance, the Santa Fe Indian School in Santa Fe is owned by the 19 Pueblos, which are tribally recognized tribes, or federally recognized tribes here in New Mexico. And working with them to get more local product into the school for the students.

00:15:05 Michelle

And how do you, like I'm trying to think, in New Mexico, because I'm so unfamiliar with it, coming from Oregon, like what kind of foods are coming in to different schools.

00:15:17 Kevin Beltran

Yeah, so I guess for us and kind of the intention that we lead with is we are wanting to make it culturally relevant food. So really when you think about culturally relevant food to the Southwest and specific to New Mexico, it's what we call like the staple product, which is corn, beans, squash, chili. I'm thinking other melons, types, different types of melons. And then also looking to the ranchers who are providing like the beef. So there are a couple staple products and really leading with that cultural relevancy behind it allows that to be more implemented to schools rather than having to go outsource it from other places.

00:15:52 Michelle

And I've heard some folks talking about hunting, gathering. Is that part of the foods as well?

00:16:02 Kevin Beltran

So we have an allowable produce list, which is basically getting all the product that we consider allowable within our approved supplier program. But there is a kind of a section down that is more on the foraging end, so it is like perennials, so you can go get berries. And if it's, you know, that is a big part of it too, because we are, you know, kind of culturally relevant to what we eat here in New Mexico as well.

00:16:24 Michelle

What would be some examples of that fruit?

00:16:27 Kevin Beltran

We got pinon nut that's local. We have a couple of currants plants that grew up in the What's the first nut? Pinon.

00:16:34 Christy Sherding

What does it taste like?

00:16:35 Kevin Beltran

I can't explain.

00:16:38 Michelle

It's like, is it really creamy?

00:16:39 Christy Sherding

I've never had it.

00:16:41 Kevin Beltran

It's pretty, it's pretty flavorful and it's kind of fatty.  Pinon is really like really big in New Mexico, you have pinon coffee, which has kind of become a big thing. Pinon goes into all types of foods, desserts. It goes into the food exactly like stews and stuff. So people put it in pizza.

00:17:00 Christy Sherding

Versatile. Very versatile.

00:17:01 Kevin Beltran

Yeah, it's kind of like green chili. Green chili is on everything and pinyon can probably be on most of it too.

00:17:06 Christy Sherding

Okay.

00:17:07 Michelle

So that's part of approved food. So is that going into schools too?

00:17:10 Kevin Beltran

Yeah, I mean, if someone's willing to go out and forage it or if they have some trees on their property where they're actually getting it, I mean, pinon nut is... also kind of considered, an allergy because it is a nut. So just depending on how that is kind of regulated, it's always just a difference, right? Like if you have something that might have lettuce and then you have the nuts next to it, you might want to consider about where you store them. And that's kind of our end, right? Like I hear the food safety coming. Yeah, the food safety is big, but that's kind of what we, on my end, that I kind of help support people to understand.

00:17:40 Michelle

Because that's a big question that I think it blocks folks from maybe allowing more forged or hunted, gathered foods is the food safety. So how do you speak to that?

00:17:52 Christy Sherding

That's such a good question.

00:17:53 Kevin Beltran

Yeah.

00:17:53 Michelle

I'm full of great questions.

00:17:55 Christy Sherding

You really are. I'm just fascinated listening. But no, it's true. Because there are just as a parent, there's so many concerns with allergies and kids that are intolerant to certain things. So that safety thing is I know for a lot of parents and grandparents and anyone out there. And food handling. Yeah, food handling.

00:18:14 Kevin Beltran

Yeah. I mean, for us at least, I think it's really the processing end, right? Like where it's being processed. If it's being processed in like your backyard, probably not the most safe location, but if it's in a commercial kitchen, it probably could be a little more regulated.

00:18:27 Christy Sherding

More parameters.

00:18:28 Kevin Beltran

Yeah, maybe not regulated. I don't like using regulated because we're not regulators, but you know, people tend to think food safety and all that. It's like, oh, it's the regulator, but it's not. And for me, at least, I think it's really just thinking of the process. And we do work with a lot of tribal producers. When we're looking to work with more, just to understand that there are different capacities, right? There's not really any commercial kitchens or places they can go and process it. So understanding that, but knowing it's relevant to their communities and their culture and the people that they're feeding. So I think really making exceptions when it comes to that, because it's been going on for generations. I mean, I like to say since time immemorial, which is before time was a thought. So it's really taking it back that far that these have been foods and diets. And I think restricting it is really restricting people from being able to have that cultural connection.

00:19:16 Christy Sherding

What are some of the meals that are culturally relevant to this area or indigenous to this area that you guys feature your products in? Do you understand what I'm saying?

00:19:27 Kevin Beltran

Yeah, I think, I mean, the biggest one really is going to be anything with like a bean in it. You know, maybe pozole is a really big thing, which is like the mix them all corn that you add into stews. Other things, for us at least, is big things like what we call abacitas, which is like squash all blended together and chopped up, and I think it's mainly just thinking back to... New Mexico historically has been an interesting place because it's had three different governments that have come through here, the Spanish, the Mexican, and the American. So thinking about how that has impacted the food and implemented a lot of different things because we never really had chili here before, but we've always had corn. So it's a very different kind of idea that.

00:20:08 Christy Sherding

Chili came up earlier today, didn't it, in the opening remarks? Do you remember what I'm talking about? They were talking about it's like something that they don't export from here. Is that correct or am I making it up?

00:20:17 Kevin Beltran

Yeah, I mean, it's grown here in New Mexico. We're known for the green chill. Red and red and green. Yeah.

00:20:22 Christy Sherding

I just thought that's even on the license plate.

00:20:24 Kevin Beltran

Yeah. It's pretty significant. I mean, Chile is like, a big part of our own culture, our own culture and food.

00:20:33 Michelle

We're pausing because we're in the hallway, as we've said in almost every one of our very special interviews during this.. I mean, it's really nice to say hi to people who are coming back. And I see it. You got a big smile on your face. That's someone you know too.

00:20:46 Kevin Beltran

Yeah, I want to get him on the podcast because he would have some good stuff to say.

00:20:50 Michelle

You want to go get him?

00:20:51 Christy Sherding

Yeah.

00:20:53 Kevin Beltran

Maybe he'll come by. I’ll tell him to come by.

00:20:54 Christy Sherding

Okay. It's been really cool sitting here, though, in this hallway and seeing the sense of community that there is here, not just with everyone attending the National Farm, just cafeteria. I was going to say school because I've been saying that a lot, National Farm to Cafeteria Conference, but also just all the folks here from New Mexico and how welcoming you guys have been and the people from Albuquerque. I've been having such fun chatting with everyone today.

00:21:17 Kevin Beltran

Yeah, New Mexico.

00:21:18 Michelle

And to that point, the network is really special at convening and different things. And I'm curious what brings you specifically to network and be with the National Farm to Cafeteria?

00:21:28 Kevin Beltran

Yeah, so we were asked to be part of it because we're partially hosting some of it.

00:21:32 Christy Sherding

Oh, well, thank you.

00:21:33 Kevin Beltran

Yeah, so our organization.. The organization has been kind of like coordinating a little bit of it. We actually have a vendor pop-up that another colleague of mine is helping to lead, which is all local producers, rather that be like a farmer and then also artists and people who are going to be here. So that's going to be something. And we've had a couple people from our organization that have been part of the presentations and talks throughout today and tomorrow.

00:21:56 Michelle

And what are you professionally getting out of the experience?

00:22:00 Kevin Beltran

I think just seeing people who I probably work with, but also maybe meeting new people. I think there's really just, yeah, it's cool to have anything related to food as someone who has grown up in the community where, food was the main staple and kind of, I guess farming is kind of like our, who we are as individuals in my Pueblo here in New Mexico has just really been seeing how much, care goes into food, but also it's just, it's nationwide, but it's also just kind of figuring out how we navigate, through these systems to be able to bring food into our communities.

00:22:33 Michelle

And what's something that you're working on towards the future? Like often you're working on things that will come to fruition down the road.Is there something that's on your back burner?

00:22:45 Christy Sherding

I was just thinking, that's such a good question. But I was also thinking, how do I ask him where he sees this journey in 10 years, right? A stove came to mind.

00:22:55 Michelle

I was looking at you. I thought a stove was on the front burner, was on the back burner.

00:22:59 Christy Sherding

I love that.

00:23:01 Kevin Beltran

I think for us, and I guess for me specifically, is really trying to build a food system for our tribal and rural communities, just because those are underserved areas. And New Mexico is pretty rural. There's a lot of places. I mean, it's one of the most rural states in the country where there's areas where people have to drive, you know, over 40 miles to get to the closest town. So it's like very different.

00:23:22 Christy Sherding

I was just going to ask that. Do a lot of the tribal communities grow their own and produce their own food? Or are they having to drive 40 miles.

00:23:31 Kevin Beltran

For the most part, yes. But the other end of that is no, unfortunately, just due to the lack of resources, like water is a big thing. There has been a lot of issues with water on tribal lands. And I think that really goes back to the point of people really going back to this commodity food or maybe food that comes in a can that's not grown in the earth. So it's what's easy and accessible, but thinking about the resources that are there are pretty limited.

00:24:00 Michelle

Is there anything else you'd like this, that our listeners to know?

00:24:03 Kevin Beltran

I'm trying to think.

00:24:07 Christy Sherding

If you were a vegetable, what would you be?

00:24:13 Kevin Beltran

Well, I think if I was a vegetable, I'd probably be corn. But I think of three sisters, which is, you know, it's the three sisters what we grow. in tribal communities, which is corn, beans, and squash. I don't know if you've heard the three sisters before.

00:24:28 Michelle

Let's hear, let's hear, can you tell us about it?

00:24:30 Kevin Beltran

Yeah, so the corn is basically the big sister. It kind of creates like the shade and protection for the squash and the beans, but the squash is kind of like the protector, right? Because it has like the kind of spiny, spiny thorns on it, on the rind and stuff. So, you know, bugs don't really like to crawl in it. And then the beans actually are the biggest, I think they're the biggest sister because they are actually providing the nitrogen that goes into the soil to then support the squash and corn to grow. So they're all kind of supporting one another. And most of the time, if you have any food here in New Mexico, it's going to have the Three Sisters in it.

00:25:03 Christy Sherding

I did not expect such a beautiful answer when I asked that question. Oh my, that's awesome. I've never heard that before.

00:25:10 Kevin Beltran

There's actually a vendor in the pop-up area that's Three Sisters Kitchen, but they are here in Albuquerque and they have a lot of stuff that's kind of relevant to that.

00:25:20 Michelle

Cool. We can add that to the show notes and also about the farmer's market. Thank you so much for making time to meet with us.

00:25:26 Kevin Beltran

Definitely.

00:25:27 Christy Sherding

Thank you.

00:25:28 Kevin Beltran

Appreciate it.

00:25:33 Michelle

We'd like to thank you so much for listening today.

00:25:36 Michelle

And Michael, thank you for joining us as our guest opening co-host.

00:25:41 Michael Rosenberger

Thank you. I appreciate the invitation. Had a great time and look forward to part 2 in the future.

00:25:48 Michelle

And also who you heard was very special friends, Christy from the Henry Ford and of course, Kevin. Thank you both so much for being on our podcast today.

00:25:56 Rick

Farm to School was written, directed, and produced by Rick Sherman and Michelle Markeston with production support from Leanne Locher and Lauren Tobey of Oregon State University. This podcast was made possible in part by a grant by the United States Department of Agriculture.

00:26:11 Michelle

The content and ideas on the Farm to School podcast do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Oregon State University or the United States Department of Agriculture. Both the USDA and OSU are equal opportunity providers and employers.

00:26:24 Rick

Do you want to learn more about Farm to School?

00:26:27 Michelle

Yes.

00:26:29 Rick

Check out other episodes.

00:26:30 Michelle

Who doesn't?

00:26:31 Rick

Show notes, contact information, and much more by searching Farm to School Podcast OSU.

00:26:37 Michelle

It pops up every time. All right, stop by. We'd love to hear from you and send us some ideas for a podcast episode. Bye, everyone.

00:26:44 Rick

Bye, everybody.

00:26:44 Rick

Thank you.

00:26:45 Michelle

Bye-bye, y'all.