Maximum Mileage Running Podcast
"Welcome to the Maximum Mileage Running Podcast – 'Real Chat for Real Runners.'
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Maximum Mileage Running Podcast
#8: Andy Berry... The Winning Mindset: An In-depth Interview with the Lakeland 100 2023 Champion
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Do you ever wonder what it takes to win an ultra-marathon? You're in for a treat as we chat with the remarkable Andy Berry, the recent winner of one of the UK's toughest races, the Lakeland 100. Pulling back the curtain on his preparation, Andy shares how he stepped away from racing to focus on rigorous training in the hills and fells for the Lakes 24-Hour record, guided by none other than Kim Collison, the previous record holder, before recovering and heading into his recent win!
Stretching boundaries isn’t just about physical prowess, as Andy reveals the intertwining roles of recovery and mental preparation in his success. From valuable insights on listening to your body, to recognizing the importance of family support and redefining DNF (Did Not Finish) as a learning opportunity, prepare to be inspired by his journey. We also get a window into the intricacies of specific training sessions, checkpoint strategies, and the crucial two-week tapering period that played a pivotal role in his win.
You can find out more about Andy Berry via his Instagram page and contact him for coaching there too! @andy_berry
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Andy Berry's Journey in Ultra-Running
Speaker 1Welcome everybody to another episode of the Maximum Mileage Running podcast , where real runners share their real stories . And today I've got a real runner who is quickly becoming ultra-running royalty . We're going to be diving deep into Andy Berry's recent win at the Lakeland 100 , which is one of the UK's toughest , most grueling ultra-marathons out there . He's going to tell us more about it . So , andy , welcome to the podcast , delighted to have you on . Thank you for joining me .
Speaker 2You're welcome . I mean I'm blushing a bit now . That was some intro .
Speaker 1Well you are . I mean , you are quickly becoming ultra-running royalty . It's really interesting to just read into your bio and your history and what you've done over the last few years , because you were out there winning a few ultra-marathons before 2021 , and then you pretty much took a couple of years off the scene , didn't you ? To concentrate on the Lakeland .
Speaker 2Yeah Well , post-covid , I just love running in the hills , in the fells . That's where I feel most at home and when I feel happy , that's when I run my best and so , yeah , so I stepped away from racing , organised big trail races . I was still racing fell races in the Lake District . So you know , for people who don't know , they're really small , pay a fiver , go run up a hill and back and get a cup of tea at the end and shake everybody's hand if it finishes around you and you know that's fell racing for you .
Speaker 1Here is it gets .
Speaker 2Yeah , exactly , and so and I love that side of us I'm never going to be brilliant at fell short fell races . I'm just not built that way . I'm more built like a turbo diesel than a Ferrari is like how I like to say it . So yeah . So I was doing a lot of that and concentrating on some of the big , big rounds in the UK fell running rounds . So I 'd already done the Bob Graham in 2016 , which is in the Lake District . So in May last year what's that 2022 ? I did the Paddy Buckley in North Wales and then in September I did the Ramsey Round up in Scotland , all just building towards the dream goal of hoping to get somewhere close to the level required to challenge the Lake District 24 hour record . And in May this year so that's there was a two year plan , from 2021 , to see how close I could get .
Speaker 1And I think it's awesome that you approached the man who held the record before you to coach you for it .
Speaker 2Yeah , kim's great . He's just such a nice guy and you know I've said many times the you know the story of how it came to be . But ultimately , if you want to push your own limits , then who better to guide you to that goal than the person who's not only got the knowledge the scientific side of it all nailed down , but also the lived experience alongside it . That that was really key for me , and he was he's been nothing but amazing . Can't sing , as praise is highly enough .
Speaker 1Yeah , for those listening , that's Kim Collison who is . It was Andy's coach . You know previous record holder and you're absolutely right . Why not ? You know , I the person who coaches me . I approached her because she was the record holder of a race I wanted to do and you know exactly . Exactly . For that reason , why not approach the person who's got that experience ? So let's talk a little bit more recent , because you have just won the Lakeland 100 . So talk us a little bit about your preparation for that race with Kim . How's he got on you ready for that and what have been some of the key things that you've done .
Speaker 2So because it was only , it was nine weeks between 24 hour record and Lakeland 100 . So we knew in that time period I'm not going to find any , any level of improvement . Really , the only thing you're hoping for in that time is to get really good recovery out the back of your first event . And you know you're looking at your sleep , what you're eating , getting the legs moving but responding to any pains , aches , tightness , and making sure that you're doing the rep was stretching and mobilization . So there's about two weeks of that . And then we had a short block of , say , I think it was about four or five weeks where we we did a little bit of everything again . So since , like September to May , we would do like eight week blocks and it would be eight weeks , you know working short reps , working medium reps , longer reps doing . You know , trying the .
Speaker 2That is the back and model from from Norway , I think it's called , where you double up your threshold sessions but you drop the intensity down . So instead of running at eight you run at seven , but you do one in the morning and one at night . You know , just try in different stuff . So between the two events you're going to be doing a little bit of a , a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of speed . So between the two events we just did little bit of that . We do one week of each thing just to inject a little bit of speed back into the legs , inject a little bit of intensity into the sessions , a little bit of faster running , and all of those little bits we put back together . And then we did another .
Speaker 2I was going to say six , seven , yeah , and we did like a week or two of really specific for Lakeland training . So there you're looking at a lot of running , because Lakeland's got quite a lot of running in it , and looking at those . Okay , what's the biggest hills on Lakeland ? How long are they going to take ? Let's just practice those hills and get , get yourself ready for those . And then , obviously , a two week taper back down because you want to be rested again . There's no point in going in tired and and then just see , see what you had , basically same as everybody else , standing on the start line . You had , you have your goals and you hope your day goes as well as it can , and see what happens . And luckily for me , I had a great day and but I don't see it any different to somebody who's chasing the cutoffs and nailed it got in in 40 hours . They nailed their day . I nailed my day . It's exactly the same level of achievement in my eyes Absolutely .
Speaker 1And I was looking at your Instagram earlier and there was something I picked out from that , and I mentioned before that you know you're becoming a name , that's , you know , getting up there with ultra running royalty , and but I still love that people will comment on your , on your Instagram posts , and and you'll reply back to them and say things like you know , yes , I won , but you also did the race and you finished it and that's a fucking amazing achievement too . So , you know , don't don't put me too much on the pedestal when you've done the same race as me and I love that .
Speaker 2I think that's amazing . No , we're all just human beings . Nobody needs to be put on a pedestal . I love running and I see it exactly the same as anybody else who loves running . We're all in the same race . We're all challenged with the same things . Just , I run a little bit faster than than some of the some of the fields . It's as simple as that really . But yeah , I think in many ways I see it as I get the easy end . Really . You know , I was lying in bed on the Saturday night listening to the rain absolutely hammering the windows and I was just like they're still out there . You know those guys having a second night out there are still out there grinding getting the job done . And I was just like you know , I'm the lucky one really . I'm so lucky to be done and in bed .
Speaker 1You're absolutely right . I you know I'm not at the level you're at , but you know I've won some ultimatums before I've . You know I finished high up the field and it is it . You know , for people listening . You know us people that might be a little bit quicker , that you know might win a race or , you know , finish a lot earlier , we don't go home and revel in our glory . We actually often lie there at night going Jesus there's still people out .
Speaker 2I went back down to Ambleside on the Saturday night and cheered a lot of people through . I went and I went and picked up a couple of beers from the Corp and I sat there just before the checkpoint in Ambleside about half past nine at night and cheered everybody through because I was just like you know , I did deserve it really yeah very cool .
Speaker 1Well , as your career continues , andy , I hope you continue to be that way , Because there are some people out there that you do . You know . You say , you know congratulations , and a couple of years ago you said congratulations to them when they won , you know their sort of their first big races . And now they're out there winning massive races and their big names in the sport and they don't they just blank you . So keep that going , andy . Keep that going . Yeah , well , be the people's champion .
Speaker 2The Rocky Balboa Revolver .
Recovery, Training, and Mental Preparation
Speaker 1Exactly you , you touched on a point , so I've put on Instagram , you know , for people to ask me some questions to ask you today , and I I've got a few , and one of them you touched on just now , which which is around your recovery , and it was something I wanted to ask you as well , because nine weeks between doing the Lakeland 24 hour record , which for everybody listening means that you it was 78 peaks- 78 peaks , which it was 94 miles , with the best part of the 13,000 meters of climbing but not on trail .
Speaker 2A lot of it is just across the mountain . So that was 23 hours 23 minutes to take that .
Speaker 1Yeah , why didn't you go for the 79th ? Just out of interest ?
Speaker 2So we had a time cut off . I needed to be there by quarter seven , because if you're 24 hours and one minute , you don't , you don't get anything . So we had a time cut off . I didn't get there until quarter past seven . I was around about two minutes down on Kim's time at that at that point and there was no real indication at that moment that I was about to come back to life , and so we would just decided at that point to go for the time , because that's what made absolute sense as it turned out . Yes , I would have had enough time , but there was no way of knowing that , absolutely no way of knowing it .
Speaker 1It was the right decision . I've definitely .
Speaker 2I feel like there's unfinished business , business maybe to go back and try again .
Speaker 1Would you go back and have another crack ?
Speaker 2Absolutely Like . I started thinking about what I would do differently . The Monday I got back home and started looking at what I did and looked at how we can improve it . But you know we'll see how it goes . It's ever evolving , the plan .
Speaker 1Yes , well , I'll ask you about that in a bit . So anyway , my question was going to be around some of the questions people have asked me . We're around here . What did you do to recover to get ready from ? Because that is nine weeks basically between 200 mile mountain altars and that that can be a time period that some people need to just recover it to start training again , let alone getting ready to run another race I've done .
Speaker 2Your focus is I've got a huge base now . So it's two years of , you know , religious strength and conditioning work and on top of that , solid training . You know , I think my average is around . It's not huge really for , but I average around about 100k a week , but that's including , you know , tapers and ups and downs , but across the board about 100k a week and I've done that for two years . So I've got a huge base of fitness . This means that as long as I don't get injured , my recovery is normally fairly good . Also , my fulmin for the 24 hour record went perfectly . I nailed 90 grams of carbon hour . For the full thing , I had zero stomach issues , and so that has that obviously had a huge effect on how well I recovered , coming out of it and just being really relaxed about it all .
Speaker 2I think that how you approach things mentally does play a huge part on how your body reacts . I don't see the brain and the body as two different things . They're very much intertwined and if you tell yourself that you need a huge amount of recovery , your body's going to take that opportunity . You also need to listen to your body , but as long as you've got a good awareness but I don't mean this just after a race , like every day in your training , every day on your rest day , listening to your body , seeing what it tells you when you're running , and you're feeling the different parts of you . You know I've got a feeling the amount of left shin . Well , what is that ? You know ?
Speaker 2it's taking mental note of it , and that allows me to know what is normal pain and what is abnormal pain , so that after something like a big event I can go okay . I know , roughly by the Monday or the Tuesday of an injured say the event was on the Saturday , I don't so then I can just go out on the bike and spin the legs out and I know if it's just muscle damage , muscle damage is fine , it's just going to heal in a week or two . But I also know if my ankles are feeling weak , or if so , then I need to not run for an extra week or so , because I understand that's what it feels like . I understand the type of certain tightness in a certain part of my knee . I know exactly where that tightness is coming from . It's at a point in the top of my glute , in my hip . So it's just understanding your body to a point that you can roll with it really .
Speaker 1And really thinking about recovery as part of your training , right ? I mean , I talk to my athletes about that all the time . Recovery is not something separate to your training , it's part of it .
Speaker 2It's a third of the equation . Stress plus rest equals growth . The rest is as important as the stress because without it I just read I was just reading Twitter earlier Steve Magnus has put on anybody who's looking for a scientific nugget of gold at the cutting edge of science , who doesn't sleep seven to nine hours a night , is missing out on the simplest thing that they do . Yeah .
Speaker 1And it's interesting because that's exactly the kind of stuff I talk to my athletes about . It's the kind of stuff that I constantly spamming Instagram . About is recovery isn't massage guns and cryo chambers and these weird leg things that pump up to squeeze your legs . It's getting enough sleep , it's eating right , and that means not just fueling , not just eating after you've done the race or the run or the session , but how you're fueling the race , how you're fueling the session . That's when recovery starts during the race , the ball race .
Speaker 2My big training days . I need 4,000 calories a day . It's a lot of calories , but if I don't do that , then there's no point doing the training , exactly Because your body hasn't got anything to work with . And it sounds really simple when you say I'll add in . I don't know if you're the same when you talk to your athletes . You say it and they're like oh yeah , that , actually that totally makes sense , but I don't , you know . It's like saying to a kid build me something out of Lego , and not giving him half the blocks .
Speaker 1Yeah , I mean , I use the car analogy all the time , in fact . So everybody listening me and Andy both ambassadors for talk , nutrition and talk have got this brilliant video of two fuel gauges and that just explains fueling brilliantly . To me that's like a three minute video of how we are fueling our runs . And if you're not giving your body enough and that's just during the run , think about all the other things that we're doing as well our training . If you're not giving the car and a fuel , how's it going to get from A to B ? Yeah , it's going to be getting halfway to B and trying to run on fumes and our bodies are exactly the same .
Speaker 2Yeah , and I think that the other huge one for me this year in particular , from Christmas onwards , I finally took the blinkers off when it comes to alcohol . I didn't want it to be true , but the truth is that if somebody sold the benefits of not drinking in a bottle , it would be a multi-billion dollar industry . And that doesn't mean that I don't enjoy a beer still , but for me what that means is when do I have that beer ? Yeah , you know , I don't have it after a hard workout because it negates all of your hard workouts . You might as well have not done the hard workout if you go and then have two or three pints afterwards .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2Because it just interrupts your body's processes , so much so , you know , I cut right back and I target when I have it , and that is made an astronomical difference . I genuinely believe it has .
Speaker 1Yeah , now , 100% . Another thing that you just mentioned , and it was a question that came in from , in fact , it was from one of my athletes around the mental side of things . So her question , rachel . She asked do you do any mental training and any tips when needing to dig in deep ?
Speaker 2I'm a huge believer and I've already said that the brain and the body together are your biggest friends . You can get the two singing off the same hymn sheet . Yeah , absolutely Laughin' . So for me . For me , I like it as my mirror principle it's . You know I'm working on it . It's a work in progress , okay , but if I can look in the mirror before a race and go , I did everything I could with the time that I had , with the finances that I had , with the commitments that I had to have in the rest of my life , I've had everything I had to be ready for that race . Then I can all head up high with , whatever the outcome is , no fear of failure at all , because my partner's still going to love me , my son's still going to love me , I'm still going to have a roof over my head , I'm still going to be able to eat next week . You know , nothing's really gone wrong if you fail , like in a running race .
Speaker 1It really hasn't , no , and that's a lovely , lovely way to think of it , because I think we've all been there .
Pushing Limits in Ultramarathon Running
Speaker 1In fact , I think I saw on your Instagram that you changed your mindset around the way you raced a few years ago . Right , and I'm exactly the same . I used to get so head up with you know . I'm going to go and try and win this race . I want to break the course record , I'm going to do this and that , and then those times where it didn't come off , I would beat myself up so much , but then it's quite easy then to sort of reflect back on those moments and go did it really matter ? Did my wife love me less ? Did she just hate me ? Yeah , I did . They just want you to be happy , that's all they really want .
Speaker 2And so , coming back from a race , even when things don't go well for me I know they go quite well at the minute , but when they don't go well , just come back and go well . You know , I gave it my best shot . I'll learn my lessons and I'll get back to work as soon as I've recovered . And they're just like yeah , do it .
Speaker 2You know like great , so yeah . So then , and then , after your race , I think you can look in the mirror again and go , no matter how it went , whether you smashed your goals or whether you had a terrible , terrible day , as long as you look in the mirror and go . I did my best , I didn't give up until somebody told me that I needed to give up and my goals were out of sight , and I just chose to save my powder as long as you could be honest with yourself , because the only person that matters when it comes to your running is you Really , as long as you've got buy-in from the family in the first place but the only person that truly matters , too , is you . So if you want a .
Speaker 2DNF and you really want a DNF , dnf , save yourself . There's no shame in that , as long as you're happy with it it doesn't matter ?
Speaker 1Yeah , 100% . In fact , I've got an episode already teed up , which I'm going to bring out in a couple of weeks , which I talk about DNFing and how actually it is really important to us , but it isn't really important to everybody else and the whole world isn't going to come crashing around you because you DNFed .
Speaker 2In fact I did DNF late on 50 last year .
Speaker 1And there you go and then you've turned around and gone to the 101er , and I think DNFs are just a really good opportunity to learn is the way I see it , particularly in the ultramarathon world . We don't do ultramarathons because they're easy . We do them because they are really , really challenging and in fact I will come on to a question in a second we're not supposed to finish every single ultramarathon that we ever do .
Speaker 2Well , why do people go longer ? Why do people go harder ? Why do people look for the race that says it's the biggest , baddest , meanest thing on the planet ? It's because they're looking for the thing that they can't do . It's not because they're looking for the thing that they can do , but they want to go into it absolutely as well as they can . They want to succeed , but they're also looking for the thing that they can't do . I just I can't think of any other explanation why people would search out something that is just harder and harder , and harder and harder . That's what I'd do it's the biggest records that I can find and then work as hard as I can until I can find one that is too big , and then , if I'm really close to it , I might go away , learn my lessons and then try again If I get a little bit closer . Try again , try again .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2And see how far you can take it .
Speaker 1And that brings me on to a good question , and there's a few people sent me this question and it's a question I love to ask , particularly in the ultramarathon world what is your why ? Why do you do this ?
Speaker 2I love moving through the mountains and challenging myself with that , and I took that and I combined it with a . How far can I take it ? I literally don't know . But once you remove the fear of failure , then what's stopping you just aiming as big as you can ? As long as it's reasonably realistic , then . So for me it's . At the minute it's very much about how far can I go , what can I do ? I don't know .
Speaker 2I don't think any of us truly know what we're capable of , until we go out there and try it and just listening to that little voice in the back of your head , that little voice that says maybe , and maybe you could , and then going all right , well , maybe , if I maybe could , how do I turn that into a ? Can I ? And how do I turn that into a ? I'm going to , and how do I turn that into a ? I'm going to do it . And it's that , that journey , and I don't think that I'm a massive believer in in , in letting that little voice , letting that little voice out , give , give them the airtime , because too many people are trapped in the box of what they're expected to do or what they think other people think they should do , or what's the hottest race out there or you know whatever it is . But just listen to that little voice . That little voice is often right . That's what you want to do and for me , I've got to want to do it . Yeah , if I don't want to do it , I'll find an excuse to not do the training . I'll find an excuse to if I want to do it . There's . There's no stopping us when it comes to training . I'll I'll do everything I can .
Speaker 2You know , I turned my . I turned my ankle really quite badly in February . I did a really stupid thing and went and raised the week after I'd done a huge , a huge mountain day in Scotland and you know quite badly spraying my ankle . So it just flipped . It went and made sure it wasn't broken but then just got on the bike , got on the treadmill , got clearance from a doctor , that's you know . But you can't reheat it unless you go over on it . All right , well , I can't go over on a treadmill . So I know that's treadmill for a month . Everything , long runs , short runs , easy runs , strides , you name it . I'd bet it on a treadmill for a month , just because I thought it needed to be done .
Speaker 1You're a stronger minded man than I am , because I just can't do treadmills . In fact , just on the subject of treadmills , because just you were talking about , I heard about a session that you did as part of your build up to I think it was the 24 hour record and you probably I guess you probably did it at some point or something similar in the build up to Lakeland 100 . And it was three by 45 minute threshold at 15 degrees on the Just below threshold Just below threshold .
Speaker 2Okay , so the idea is to find the line and sit just below it . Okay , but we didn't start at 45 minutes and we didn't start with three reps Two years ago .
Speaker 1Yeah , that was three lots of 10 minutes . Okay , good , so this is the kind of thing that I wanted
Building Up for Specific Training Sessions
Speaker 1to ask you . This was actually a question that I'd prepared ahead of time , because this is the kind of thing that people will hear . You know , you went on tea and trails .
Speaker 2I regret it . I regret it as soon as I said it , as soon as I came up into it and started getting questions about it , I was like oh no , I bet you have haven't you ?
Speaker 1You've had loads of questions about this treadmill session , because it's the kind of thing that people who don't have a coach , for example , will hear oh so Andy Berry did three by 45 minutes on the treadmill , I'll do that . Or Kylian Jaunet did this super hyper specific session just before he won UTMB or whatever it is , and they'll go , I'll go and do that . I must need to do that , and that absolutely isn't the case , right , it's not . It's about getting yourself to the right place to be able to do that kind of session , which takes time . But would you agree that , more than anything , it isn't about those super hyper specific one sessions , it's about all of the things that we are doing .
Speaker 2So it's never like . It's a little bit like those . You know the men's health . Do this one exercise 15 times a day . It'll take you three minutes and you'll have a six pack in six weeks . You know , it's exactly the same mentality .
Speaker 2No one session is going to suddenly make you win like 100 . No one session is going to enable you to do anything . It is it's the buildup of months of work . So you know , I think that if you have never done 100 before say you've done 50k and you give yourself a year , you can complete a 100 mile race , like if you're willing to put in the time of a year's worth of work . That's , you know , it's very achievable for you . One session is only part of that and it has to be quite specific to where you are . And as I say so , we started teaching the body about . So we work with perceived exertion . So I'm very hyper aware of a 5678910 . And then we also did lactate testant to find out the exact heart rate that it tips over . So when I'm doing those sessions for me , I'm very , very aware of what level I'm working at .
Speaker 1I can say you've got two really good indicators there of knowing your body but also having that heart rate , Just to give you opportunities to go how ? Do I feel ? What is my heart rate telling me ? Right , cool , am I in the right place ?
Speaker 2Yeah , and then learning that , as I say , starting small . So if you wanted to do it for people who don't have coaches , try it . But you're not looking at an all out effort . So when you're doing it , start at 10 minutes maybe , don't even put it on maximum incline , put it at 10% and you're looking for that effort where you can still talk . This is vital . You can still talk . Yes , it's in very short sentences . I , Kim Kim got me to use . I feel good , I feel great , I feel ready to communicate If you can still say that you're working at the right level . You can't say that anymore You're working too hard and you're going too far over the other edge .
Speaker 1So I feel good , I feel great , I feel ready to communicate .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1If you can still say that obviously you're panting in between . Yeah .
Speaker 2But if you can still get that out , you're still working in the right zone . But any more than that , you've gone too hard and you're working the wrong system and you won't get the benefits .
Speaker 1Yeah , let's talk about the race . So Lakeland 100 , a marquee race for many people . I've entered the ballot twice and not got in Because it is a ballot entry for most people . I'm guessing , though , you got an elite invite or did you get through on the ballot ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I got an elite invite . I was lucky enough to be allowed to enter .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's cool . Most ballot , yeah , marquee event , an amazing race , well covered , well revered . So tell us about the race . What was it like for you from the start to finish ?
Speaker 2So the start was fast . I thought that I had an inkling that Jarlith and Ryan would go off hard , so I was very focused on not chasing them . Let them go .
Speaker 1I was going to say , because you didn't leave from the start , right , you didn't go from in on the start .
Speaker 2I had about one mile in the lead after about 45 miles . Other than that , I was sitting in third for a lot of it , fourth , third and then second from Gates Garth , which is 65 miles in , I think . So , yeah , so it was good .
Race Strategy and Checkpoint Efficiency
Speaker 2The weather on the open and night was lovely . For the first half we got a nice sunset and a little bit of a tailwind . It was cool .
Speaker 2It was really easy to just stay hydrated , stay on top of everything , and that's all I was thinking about at the start . Again , so RPs for me , exertion levels , making sure that I'm not going above a seven . It's a 100 mile race . You don't want to be getting anywhere near you as you're running a road or so on . So if I stay at a seven or below and I keep fueling , I'm very confident in my body's ability to keep giving me that level of exertion . That's what I expect of it and it knows it and it knows it can do it .
Speaker 2So for me that meant two gels an hour . I was completely self-reliant . I didn't touch checkpoint food really and just concentrating at my bottles . Bottles refilled I started with . So you've already mentioned talk ambassador . So I've got the flavorless energy powder . I started with two bottles of that . So that gave me for the first two hours my 90 grams of carbon hour , and then after that we're down to 60 all the way through the halfway through the race . But I was religious with that Easy peasy . Every half an hour , another gel . Here you go . Here's a tip . So I've got five different flavors and then before the race , elastic banded one of each flavor together so that I could move a pack of five to the front and then I didn't get double flavored .
Speaker 2Ah nice , so I got one of each flavor , and then I get a new pack , and then I get one of each flavor and get a new pack . So there you go .
Speaker 1So I've got a pair of shorts where I've got a pocket in the front , two pockets on the side , one on the back , and I'll put one of each of the four flavors that I like in each pocket . So I'll have all my apple crumbles in the right , lemon drizzle in the left , orange banana in the front , and I just rotate around them , around the four pockets . Here's a question for you Favorite flavor ?
Speaker 2Yeah , it's Robbie Yogurt oh fair enough .
Speaker 1Fair enough , lemon drizzle for me .
Speaker 2Lemon drizzle . Yeah , those new cola ones are absolutely rocket fuel . Yeah .
Speaker 1So I don't really like Coca-Cola outside of racing and I always think well , why would I want to take a Coca-Cola one in there ? When I did UTS at the checkpoint I was absolutely necking Coca-Cola , which I don't normally do , so I need to try the talk flavor .
Speaker 2Anyway , Just save them for that special moment where you're really flagging and then bang one of them and it's like you know , somebody dropped a moth and you're in your back mud tank or something .
Speaker 1I'll be on the phone to Dell later getting my order in .
Speaker 2Yeah . So then it was very much up until the going dark , just sort myself out enjoying that first half . That races my kind of territory . It's a little bit rougher underfoot , yeah , it's , you know , a bit more fell , fell like and going up into Wastales , just beautiful , I love that valley . And over the top of Wastale I was told at the top of the pass there were some people wild camp and he said , oh , he's only gone past five minutes ago . I was like all right , cool . And I saw I was like , oh , five minutes , you know , that's cool . I thought that I was hoping to keep them within about 10 . So that was grand . But by the time I hit the bottom of the hill I'd already caught him and move well downhill . That's one of the things I love throw myself down a hill .
Speaker 2So even when I'm concerted I can kind of throw myself down a hill , so yeah . So I caught Jarlith at the bottom of the Blacksale and managed to keep a hold of that all the way , all the way really . For the next part , up to through a few checkpoints , nothing much eventful really happened , a bit of rain and things , but it was fine . And then I caught Ryan Smith , who was the leader , just at the Glencathra . He'd made a little navigational error and he was coming back . So we ran , ran together for a little bit and then he got a little bit faster on me so I let him go again .
Speaker 2My stomach was , you know , that feeling when it just starts to roll a little bit . It feels like your stomach's kind of like just rolling and I know at that point I'm running too fast . My stomach's about to tell me that you're running too fast , so just ease it back off a little bit and it just settles straight away . So again , just be aware of what your body's telling you before it's a problem . And then through the next session .
Speaker 2So there's a six mile section of good track and they call it the old coach road for obvious reasons . It used to be the old road for the coaching carts and the lead must have changed hands about four times . And then all of a sudden , just Jarlith came , come and pass like a freight train . I was like that is frighteningly fast . I was like it was the most , some of the most beautiful running I've ever seen . It was huge . He was just lying along and I was saying like , wow , if he's still got that in the tank , I'm in bother . But let him go , that's fine , just keep . Keep running your race , it'll be not a bother .
Speaker 1Do you think he might have done that as a bit of a mental tactic ? Of right , I'm going to make it look like I'm absolutely on fire here .
Speaker 2No , I think he knew that his , his main advantage over the rest of the field was that runnable yeah , those runnable sections and he was going to make them count Fair enough . And he did Like I didn't see him again until until the last mile . He was gone and then Brian Smith kind of just disappeared and then Rob Forbes came up and ran for a bit and then he disappeared off into the in front of me . But I've re-caught him at a Dale Main , at the main checkpoint , which is about 55 , 60 miles in .
Speaker 2I think and this is another area of my running that I actually have thought about and worked on is checkpoint efficiency . So on the Lakes 24 record , that's when you're running in your car and then you're getting resupply and off you go . Obviously on races like Lakeland that's running into the checkpoint , getting your bottles filled , getting whatever food you do want and then getting back out . So for a standard checkpoint I was running in with my bottles pre emptied or hadn't finished it . I would either drink it or empty it and then lids off , just running , getting filled lids back on , straight back out . So I was in and out in probably under a minute on most of those .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2They are main way have your drop bag . I'd organized my drop bag quite effectively so I knew exactly what was where inside the drop bag . So the pack was off as I was running in All bottles out , new bottles in , because I had pre-made some more torque bottles ready , so they were already filled in the bags . They were in the straight in big bag of gels that I had for the next section , that was in the , went in the back of the bag , changed my t-shirt and I was off three or four minutes . And you look back and two lids , who were first and second , took you know , 10 , 15 minutes in those checkpoints .
Speaker 1Yeah , and that's something that's the sort of thing I say to my to my runners , is be really organized with your drop bags and your checkpoints because you know , particularly when you get into the last stages of a race , you know the worst thing you can do at 80 miles , 60 miles , whatever it is and into a race is be stood there thinking right where have I put this ? What have I done with that ? You know you want to be in right . I know where that is . Put that in , switch that over , fill that up off . I go .
Speaker 2Well , and the other way of looking at it is how hard is it to run one minute a mile faster ? It's quite difficult , yeah , yeah . But if you're five minutes faster than someone in a checkpoint , that's five miles . You've just ran faster , yeah .
Speaker 1That is a good way of putting it .
Speaker 2Yeah , you know it's , it's . It's eating time for no , no deficit . And you know once , my money's on Jarlith next year for like 100 , if he goes back with what he's learned this year , he'll be , he'll be unstoppable next year . I really I hope he does , because it'll be great to watch . I'm not racing it .
Speaker 1Now , you've done that . Now Box ticks on to the , on to the next .
Speaker 2Yeah , and then I'm left for sure , and if I come back and then then I'm in trouble , yeah .
Speaker 2So then then I'm also came , came , went , so I had some , had my partner and some friends and and her family and I'm also cheering us through and , as I say , I do an effort like the 50 last year at Ambleside and I kind of ran in and I had a really like sad face on and kind of like did a kind of you know I'm done kind of hand gesture across my , across my face and and she took the micro illigitously , like oh yeah , kind of like , oh , you're going to come back into Ambleside , I don't want to race .
Reflections on a Race Victory
Speaker 2So I was like so so three hours before Ambleside , I was like I made this plan . I was like , right , that's it , revenge time . So I was like practice in the face , practice and everything . So as I ran in and I looked at her , I just dropped my face , did exactly the same gesture . I was just like shook my head and her face , just everybody's face just dropped and I just ran up chapter in the ribs . I'm like .
Speaker 1I want to mess up with you and run off .
Speaker 2She was just like you , bastard . That's hilarious .
Speaker 1What I mean . I think that's another just a really great way of you know making the experience a fun one . And you know , because you know , even noticed what 50 miles in do you say ?
Speaker 2Oh , no , that's . I think you're about 80 , 85 miles in .
Speaker 1Right , Okay , so 80 , 85 miles in to be able to do that , I think is is . You know , that's just a great , I think . I compare that , I think , to the ellicopturally smile . You know where he makes himself smile when it's hurting . You can go in and have a bit of fun like that .
Speaker 2It typically hurts less when you smile .
Speaker 1It does . This is true , this is true .
Speaker 2Awesome . I also measure our yee-haw through every one thing . I've said to myself before the before the race because it was Western themed I was getting a yee-haw in every single checkpoint . That was my goal to go in and go yee-haw On the way in or the way out , and I nailed it Every single one . Yeah , got a yee-haw , yeah . So that was another way of just just keeping it fun , keeping it light-hearted .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2Keeping it a positive experience even when it's feeling rough .
Speaker 1Yeah , so coming into the finish , what happened in the final few miles , because it was , it was a bit of a ding-dong bell , right .
Speaker 2So from Tilgworth Way to Coniston is three and a half miles over one last hill . It's Mark Lathaway's final kick in the teeth and but that for me is that's home territory . Like climbing a hill , descending a hill . I know the descent . It's a little bit technical at the top . Even after 105 miles that still makes me smile a bit a technical descendant .
Speaker 2And so I thought that 10 minutes was achievable . If he had 10 minutes on me coming into Tilgworth Way , it was game on . I was told he had 18 . So I was like , oh well , that's not achievable . Eight , 18 minutes and three miles and I'm not going to . I'm not going to do that . But I didn't know where third place was . So I was like right , just keep pushing yourself into your race . You've done this all day . Just keep keep doing what you're doing . So I set off out of Tilgworth Way with a , with a rocket underneath me , and and yeah . So then I found a random runner . He was like oh , that's not Jarlith , but you know he's a runner , so he'll do , I'll chase him . So I'll chase this random guy up the hill just to keep myself moving . Yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1That bit quicker .
Speaker 2Yeah , exactly , and I mean he just disappeared in the end because obviously he was freshish and I don't know where he'd been for all I know he could have been over 200 miles , you know . But anyway he looked freshish . So that's what I did . And then as I came over the top of the last hill , he was there , jarlith was , was there , he was . He'd had a , had an issue with his nutrition , I think . He'd completely bonked and was talking to two hikers and getting some getting some water off them and I assumed he would give chase . So I didn't , didn't look back after seeing they was with two hikers , he was going to be safe , no matter , no matter what , even if he'd hurt himself . Thankfully he hadn't .
Speaker 2And so I just absolutely took off down the hill with with no more of my shoulder yes , please , I'm a dog's parking . Yeah , so we know , look , no more shoulder for the first bit down the technical stuff , because I wanted to make my advantage on that ground count , hit the road where I knew he was so strong and just didn't map up most to empty the tank . I just kept saying to myself this is why you do strides , trying to open my stride length house . This is why you do strides when that run out after a little bit . I did have a check over my shoulder , didn't see him , didn't trust that he wasn't about to absolutely pull some form and at my level it was back pocket or something . So I was absolutely so . Then I was saying to myself you want this more than him , you want this more than him , and just grit in my teeth and just absolutely hammering down the road . I think it's 167th kilometer was a 421 .
Speaker 2I think that's my I was pretty happy with that coming down that last hill , very nice . And then so yeah , and then came into Coniston and there was a big old crowd there because I think it had been a bit of a nervous dot watch , but for people nearly went the wrong way . Stuart had to jump in front of me and kind of go it's around the corner that way , so yeah , so nearly went wrong right at the last bit . And then , yeah , round to the finish and it was , and I kind of crossed the line , didn't really completely understand where the finish line was . And then there was a guy there who was helping sort us out .
Speaker 2And I was like , was that Jarlath ? Like I just needed confirmation off somebody else , like I was 85% sure that I'd just passed him , but I really wanted to be certain in case it was another safety marshal or something or somebody else who might have had a tracker . He's like , yeah , yeah , yeah , you've won . I was like , oh , that's all right , then That'll do .
Speaker 1How many people were around at the finish line when you crossed it ?
Speaker 2Hard to tell really , I don't know . Maybe I haven't actually seen a video that shows the crowd and where the pubs are in , and so maybe a hundred people there and maybe maybe 50 hundred people at the actual finish Finish , but not , not , not loads .
Speaker 1Well , again , congratulations on your win . It's a huge one . That's set you up for bigger things , which are not bigger things , but other big things , because I saw an ounce the other day that you're on the start line for the archer vitrition .
Speaker 2Yeah , they use that for a good bit of PR , don't they ? Yeah ?
Speaker 1we've got the Lakeloo . What else you got ?
Speaker 2Jump on the train , I've been in the arch , and so every's open . Oh fair enough Right , ok , yeah , no , that's not a recent thing , I've been at different months , so that's in February , so I'll be good luck .
Speaker 1How are you going to prepare differently for that , do you think ? Because it's not flat by any means , but it's going to be very different to the lakes .
Speaker 2I'll be honest , I don't think it's not going to be like a primary goal race . It's going to be a race that I do and I'll do the very , very best I can , but I'm not going to target my training specifically for it . I'm going to target my training for other things in May , april , may time , and just do that as a kind of a B race with an awesome field . It's got an amazing field of runners there and , as I say , I'll do my very , very best . But no , I'm not going to do anything specific . If I'm honest , maybe go find some steps in the woods and do them and go up and down the steps .
Speaker 1Yes , exactly . So I've got somebody who's running the arc of Attrition 100 . And one of the first things I said to him is have you got any steps near you ? Because you're going to need to . That last 5K is brutal with the steps . So , yeah , definitely , definitely some steps to be a good or a stepper in the gym . So what is your big goal then ? What is your next ? What's next for Andy Berry ?
Speaker 2Next I'll be 100% clarity . I know that the next year isn't decided . I know that some . Whether I go back for that 79th top in May , whether I do something different , we're not 100% sure yet . We'll probably see how winter goes and adapt it from there . But some speed to challenge some of the shorter ones , or whether max out my speed . So but yeah , I think after , I think just I might go try to do something in October , maybe a party book again , okay , but I've only got one weekend free . So whether we'll massively play a part , whether I decide to actually go for that , but I've had a great year .
Speaker 2I have had the time of my life this year from the Trampers round . So I see them as three different things . So I did a round in Scotland's in winter and managed to pull the time down a little bit for that in the end of January . So that was my adventure . That was like the best adventure day that I had . Then I had my dream day , dream goal , that two years filled in two in in May with the latest 24 hour record . And then I had just the greatest day on the trails that I've had in my running at Lakeland . So if I do nothing else this year , then just go back to building up a big base ready for next year . Maybe go and do some just have a play in a winter round in December or something , but just just me and some friends just having a laugh rather than anything serious . Then I'm more than happy with how this year has turned out . I've got no obligation to anybody other than myself , and so if it doesn't feel right , I won't do it . If it does feel right , I'll do it .
Speaker 1And I think that's great to be able to do that , to be able to say you know what I've done , the things I want to do , and to keep , I think , to keep training interesting to you know . Like you say , just go and have a , have a play in the mountains for a couple of couple of weekends .
Speaker 2I definitely I'd love to get an entry in towards the end of next year . That would be . That would be amazing . So going to see what I can do , getting the ballot and start emailing people beg to steal and borrow a place . So yeah , so towards the end , it would be amazing back in the next year . But other than that , I haven't . I haven't set my heart on anything in particular .
Speaker 1Any interest to go after the likes of Damien's records on the Pennine Barrier or anything like that ? You know you talk about going longer , seeing how far you can push yourself . That's a pretty well known one .
Speaker 2No , probably not the Pennine way , for now I think that that's . It's not on my radar . I'm not saying never and never saying never . I think my next like goal that doesn't even have a date on it , that doesn't even exist yet , but is that little voice in the back of my head would be all the way in right , that little voice , is that little voice is going , could you ? Maybe ? I don't know so I've been it only at that stage .
Speaker 2It isn't at the how , or the oh yeah , let's do it , or the oh , we're going to do it . It's no idea that it's just at the could you so ? But the tortoise , he wants to definitely be a step towards that longer distance sleep deprivation , working with that . So , and then it's funny , the spine race is always one of those ones that's like no , I don't want to do it , but I always know that I'm going to do it at some point .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2So that's the way of the back of your mind .
Speaker 2Yeah , it'll happen Like I was so inspired by them this year that that's the closest I've ever come to to signing up , which is why I then went the week after up to Scotland my tranters round . So I was just like I need to do something . These people are doing all these amazing things and I want to go do something amazing . So off I go . So yeah , but yeah , it's just all exciting . I just love running , I love being in the hills , I love the adventure , I love pushing myself . I don't see any reason why I would stop anytime soon . So we'll just kind of see .
Speaker 1And you've taken that love of running to helping other runners . Now you are Andy Berry coaching .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1So yeah .
Speaker 2So I've got my start of my coaching , which is , again , it's kind of built up alongside my own journey . I've been been working towards starting that and so I started that in April . I was always going to start at small , so I just started with like two athletes . Yeah , now you know we're up to . I think we're up to about eight , eight or nine . I've got a couple who haven't started yet . So it's like , do you count the ones who haven't started yet ?
Speaker 1They're coming .
Speaker 2They're starting , but in September . But no , it's great , I love it . I love the diverse people that you get to meet and they're they're different reasons , they're different life scenarios that you have to work around and getting inspired . I just love hearing other people's journeys in the , in the ultra run , and then buying in . I want to buy into them so that they buy into me , yeah , and and make it work for them . I know what it's like when running doesn't quite fit in with life and I don't want my coaching to be that for anybody else . I wanted to work for them long term . That's when they'll see the benefits . If it works long term . The sky's the limit for them and and that's one thing I really like to to impress upon them , no matter how long they work with me . If they only work with me for six months , sure they're not going to see the immediate benefits , but if they take the lessons that I can try and teach them forward , then then hopefully they will yeah .
Speaker 1And it's .
Coaching and Collaboration in Running Community
Speaker 1You know I people ask me . If somebody asked me , why have you got ? You know , andy Berry is just one of the Lakeland 100 . Are you going to talk about his coaching ? Because that'd be a bit weird , because you're a coach too , but I , I think I think good coaching is good , good coaches are good for coaching in general Because you know , through the pandemic , there were a lot of Instagram coaches popping up and you're like you know , have you got any qualifications ? You've got actually any experience ? And and also I'm a big believer that there's plenty of people who need coaches that we don't all have to call over each other and argue about . You know who's working with who . So you know , I'm delighted to put another coach in the spotlight and say you know , andy Berry , how do people get in contact with you ? And you know how does that , how does that work ?
Speaker 2Absolutely , and I think that the qualifications and things that you know , that they're all just part of it . But how you , we can , we can do the same qualifications . So , say the USQ qualification , and you know , both get through that that's you know , it's good , it's you know . The resource of knowledge that they're always building there is is invaluable . But how you coach and I coach can be very different , like on a day to day level . They're going to have similarities , so I can learn from you and you can learn from me , and that's positive .
Speaker 2I think that's my first . I don't see it , as you know , coaches should be against each other in any way , shape or form , because otherwise how do I ? You know , you might have I don't know , you might have vast experience of working with a woman who's gone through menopause and I might have just got a woman who's gone through menopause . Now I can read all the literature , but you might go , oh right , the literature says that , but I did this and it worked amazingly well . You might want to try it . So you know , that's just one example .
Speaker 2But yeah , things like that have , have have adapted , adapted the written word and go you know , oh , has this happened ? Yes , try this Amazing . No , that's what we should be . We should be there to help each other , really , absolutely .
Speaker 1And that's exactly what I want to do with this podcast is , as more you know , coaches come on board , come on to the come on to the show is to talk about coaching and how we can help each other and actually show people that you know we are a good community of good people trying to do good things for a sport that , ultimately , we just love and we love to help other people to do it . And you know it doesn't have to be that . You know that whole . But you know he says he says that and you say that well , yeah , that's right , you know we are both different coaches . We've both got , you know , probably different methodologies that will , you know , will follow , and philosophies , but does that make either of us wrong ? Or , you know , all coaches are going to be different . I think that's fantastic , that you know we can all put each other , you know , in the spotlight and work together . So I see it very . You know it's exactly the same .
Speaker 2As you know , some of our backgrounds come from from from plumbing and things . You can give the same drawings to two different plumbers , both who are gas-safe , registered , fully qualified plumbers , and they'll plumb that house completely differently . It doesn't mean that the plumbing won't work .
Speaker 1Yeah , and that's what you do in your day job , right ? You're a plumber , so hard time .
Speaker 2I've reached the point now so I can split my time between my coach and my plumber . But yeah , so I do that as well . It gives me yeah , gives you , the pitch .
Speaker 1Yeah , I say it all the time it's very rare that you'll find a full , full , full , full time running coach it's . We're not going to be multi-millionaires out of it , that's for sure . We do it for the love , a bit like nurses , yeah .
Speaker 2And it's like you've got . It's part of the thing , isn't it ? So there's so many good running coaches out there , but as soon as somebody says they have some crazy number of athletes , alarm bells are ringing . How are you giving each of those people the attention that they may need ?
Speaker 1Yeah , 100% , andy . It's been amazing having you on the show . Thank you very much for coming on , and if people want to find you , how can they get hold of you ?
Speaker 2Best is Instagram . At the minute , the website is still on my list of things that needs a lot of work .
Speaker 1Oh , yes , there is so many hours in the day . Mate , I'm three years in and I'm still sitting around with my websites . Don't worry .
Speaker 2So yeah . So Instagram is the best way . Andy Double Underscore Barry or Andy Berry Cochin . The links are on football , they're on eBay , so yeah cool .
Speaker 1So , folks , if you want to get Andy as your coach , reach out to him . He's got some amazing experience in the ultra and particularly the mountain running world . I might even get in touch with you for some downhill tips , mate , because it's not my strong point . I'm good going uphill , but going downhill I'm not . So thank you , Andy .
Speaker 2Trust your strength and conditioning .
Speaker 1Trust your strength and conditioning Well . Yeah , I know I do need to trust it . I have a very good strength and conditioning coach .
Speaker 2So don't overthink it , don't overthink it .
Speaker 1There you are . I think that's half the problem with people is they get scared of sending it mentality going downhill .
Speaker 2Right , but thank you . No , it's been very fun , Andy . Yeah , it's been awesome .
Speaker 1Thanks very much for coming on board and I will see you on the talk Facebook group . And thank you very much . Speak soon , yeah thank you Bye .