#15: James Scott - Can you complete a 145-mile Ultramarathon on just 3 days training per week?

Ever felt the thrill of crossing a marathon finish line? Then you'll surely resonate with our guest, James Scott, an accomplished runner whose ultra feats include the Race to Stones 100K and the Kenneth and Avon Canal Race. This episode is brimming with stories of grit and determination, as James takes us through his incredible journey, explaining how running brings him a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment. He shares his philosophy of proving to himself that he can conquer challenges and discusses the peace he derives from running.

Let's explore the true spirit of endurance with James' recollection of his fall at the start line of a 145-mile race. His narrative is a powerful testament to resilience and determination, continuing the race despite the pain and lack of sleep. His strategic approach to maintaining energy levels and managing pain is an enlightening lesson for all. Additionally, we unpack his pragmatic training philosophy for ultra running, emphasizing consistency and the careful avoidance of damage that can't be recovered from. 

In the final segment, James opens up about how he strikes a balance between training for ultra-marathons and managing a busy lifestyle. His experiences provide insights into the importance of flexibility in training and strategies to manage large runs. As we anticipate James' next big race, this episode serves as a reminder of the importance of consistency, and how working with a coach like Nick has helped him to success. Prepare to be inspired, motivated, and enlightened by this rich narrative of an ultra-marathoner's life.

Thanks for being part of our running community. Keep clocking those miles, keep pushing your limits, and above all, keep finding joy in the run. See you on the next episode of Maximum Mileage Running Podcast!

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to the Maximum Mileage Coaching Podcast, and my next guest is an athlete that I actually coach myself. He's been with me since pretty much day one of Maximum Mileage. He's my loyalist customer. Welcome to James Scott. And James just a little bit of a background has done some awesome stuff since we've been working together as coach and athlete, including getting his marathon PB down to a astonishing 308. He's won Race to the Stones 100K. He's done Brecken to Cardiff 44-miler in a biblical storm. And he has done Wendover Woods 50-miler. He's run 100 miles at Endure 24. And he's recently achieved the finish of the mammoth 145-mile Kenneth and Aven Canal Race and I think he even did a park run PB once too.

Speaker 1: 0:56

James, welcome, how about you? All right, yeah, good, Thank you, Thanks for coming on. Thank you, so like I like to kick off every episode, James, what is your why? Why do you run? And you know when you're 80, 90 miles into those, you know those crazy ultra marathons and you're asking yourself why the hell am I doing this? What is it that keeps you going?

Speaker 2: 1:25

Yeah, that's your question. You love to ask all of us, isn't it? You know it's the team and they start coming. It's almost like well, there's like two parts to my why, which is the why in the moment of a race and also the why around running in general. I guess, the why in the moment of the race and that kind of point when you're like, literally, why am I doing this when everything's hurting?

Speaker 2: 1:52

I think I was never particularly sporty athletic growing up. It was never my forte. My thing was always my brain and I was being that kind of a geeky pack at school, I guess, rather than the ones that were playing football and, yeah, I think, running, you know I started around the age of 18. That, yeah, it was just something that I guess I found I was kind of alright at, and for me there's a lot of satisfaction. Actually, I found something sporting that I could do an alright job at, and it's that sense of well, I want to prove that I can do this and that's the kind of why I think you know I came closest to DNF that I've come in this last event, but you know I haven't yet not finished anything, because my why is always well, I want to prove that I can do this and yeah, and kind of stand out.

Speaker 1: 2:56

And more broadly, I guess the why around running is, you know, that sense of headspace, that sense of peace you get when you've come back from it all has always served quite a sort of therapeutic value for me and yeah, we've talked about this so many times, about your why and I know you love to test yourself and that's why you, you know you're these challenges that you're putting yourself up for, getting crazy and crazy and testing my coaching ability more and more but, yeah, it's, it's. It is amazing how how much you and it was when I was talking to Andy Berry, actually he talked about you know, you talk about DNF and actually sometimes DNFing, particularly in the ultra world, is actually it's not a bad thing, because some of us are trying to push ourselves so much we're trying to find, like, what is my finish line? And and you know, you still haven't found your finish line yet.

Speaker 1: 3:56

No how many options have you done now? Maybe?

Speaker 2: 4:02

five or six official events and obviously the very first ultra distance I did was in in lockdown actually, and did another short, at least at the stones. Yeah, yeah, no, you make a good point about the DNF and the funny thing was was that I had almost made peace with the idea going into that checkpoint in Bradford and even at that last race I was going to DNF and almost take that as my. You know my lesson around DNFing and being okay with that.

Speaker 2: 4:31

Yeah and yeah and also, as I said, I've had the podcast you did recently where you talk, talks about it, and the thing is, where is that? Where is that? End of what? What is my? You know how much is too much, but it's. It's taken into account the time and the cost and everything I guess that comes with doing these massive races. And that 145 miles, it wasn't, it wasn't fun, it was painful, lonely, it was a you know you part of my it's like well, you know I'm, I'm paying for this and I'm not having fun, so let's go home was again but, I, was in my head going into that checkpoint where I was basically refused to DNF by the start of the aid station, which which could be very effective, but yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:23

Yeah, and just just just a sorry, faye. One second, just a really quick, really quick shout out to those aid station staff, because that's what you want in an ultramarathon you want the aid station staff to be really you know. Unless you are in trouble or in danger, you want them to be saying no, get yourself back out of there. So all kudos to the Kenneth and Avan Canal race aid station staff at Bradford and Avan for telling you to get off your arse and get out there. Yeah, go on, faye, sorry.

Speaker 3: 5:55

No, it's that. It's James. Is that what turned it around for you? Is that what I mean? If you were having that conversation in your head about DNFing, what was it? Okay, they played a big part in getting you to keep going, but what? What was it? Was there something in particular that made you go right? Come on, let's keep going, let's finish this.

Speaker 2: 6:18

Right. So, rather politically, my objective factor until that point around wanting to finish was the fact I had a hoodie that I had paid for and had been given at the start line, that was in my drop bag, which I thought I paid 30 quid for that hoodie that I'm not going to want to wear because if I haven't finished something I won't want to wear it. So I'm going to try and finish so I can justify wearing that hoodie. There came a point when the pain that I was in and the isolation because it was a it was a pretty lonely race. So you know, 55-ish starters, 27 finishes, 145 miles, you were very quickly, maybe with a couple of other runners and even, you know, halfway on. You're basically on your own. You might be overtaken I would never catching anyone else up but you're on your own, like it was.

Speaker 2: 7:15

It was kind of like what is? You know what's my getting out of? This is is positive, other than, you know, testing myself with the pain cage, basically. So, yeah, that was kind of it. I just thought there's nothing, there's nothing, I'm getting out of this, I'm enjoying anymore. So you know I'm going to quit, but no other than it was. Then you know the start of the aid station, who were already already in waiting to basically come at me with everything I had to say. They had a counter response about you know, I'm going to get a train. There aren't any trains. There are trains.

Speaker 2: 7:50

I've looked on the national rail app where we can't get you to a train station for a while. You're going to go on, aren't you? And I was like no, we ended up agreeing. But my anxiety was that my bag was not going to go from battle on even all the way to the finish line, and I didn't. My bag trapped in Bristol with me, you know, giving up before then. So they agreed that they would take my bag to Bath, which was the next stop, and they said if you get to Bath and you're still done, then your bag's there and you can get on a train at Bath and go home. But by the time I got to Bath, you know it was 13 miles to the finish. I was doing the maths that it was probably going to be okay to reach the cuss off, because, again, that was a lot of it. I was constantly doing the maths and I was actually getting more and more concerned I was going to miss the finish cuss off of 45 hours, which was, you know, playing a bit and all that.

Speaker 1: 8:44

I'm just trying to look through the text messages between you and I as you were trudging your way through those last few miles, and I can't find them. But I remember. I remember saying something like 10 miles there to get a fucking move on. I can't remember what it was saying.

Speaker 2: 9:01

Yeah, it's a funny event actually, because the last 13 miles from Bath to Bristol are arguably some of the most challenging, because you're just winding away through these meadows, which is a race that actually is even harder on the people at the back end of the field, because you end up finishing in the dark of the second night and you're trying to follow these trails through these meadows that you know. I've been going to GPS on my watchtowers following, but I think you don't really struggle in the dark to follow these tracks through the meadows. Heading towards Bristol and I was, yeah, sort of odd hallucinations by that point as well I kind of feel like I saw a Bambi deer in front of me which almost seems to be vanished, which could have been a deer.

Speaker 3: 9:49

A deer yeah.

Speaker 2: 9:51

It was hanging around for very long.

Speaker 1: 9:54

And maybe I'm maybe saying my head torch lasted six hours on medium light. I had to swap batteries in the dark and this was after about 24 hours and I said, well, if you get a hurry on, you won't have to worry about that later.

Speaker 2: 10:11

The head torch came back for a second outing.

Speaker 1: 10:15

Yeah, yeah. Well, look, talk us through the race a little bit. Yeah, we've heard about some of the end of it, but you know it wasn't all like that. So you know, talk to us about the start and how that. How did the start go for you, james?

Speaker 2: 10:33

Yeah, I have a habit of going over. Just another one too. I managed, I think, about 15 metres of the race before I managed to trip over. Did a fairly good job on my knee actually, and the kind of you know just the box of your palms. You know actually that classic reflex landing. I tripped over a metal mooring ring. There's obviously the boats on the canal after to more to 15 metres.

Speaker 1: 11:05

Yeah, I managed to put it in 145 mile race.

Speaker 2: 11:10

Yeah, nice trickle of blood down my shin. I just let it dry on and would stay there for the next 144 miles. Do you know what, though?

Speaker 1: 11:21

That for me is just kind of testament to how strong minded you are, because that kind of stuff, you know even 26 miles into a 50K, you know into a 31 mile race, can send some people into, oh, I can't finish this now. So to do that, literally, you know, three seconds after you started and to carry on without it, not going to say, without it bothering you, because it probably still did, at least for some time, is remarkable, absolutely remarkable, yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:57

Well, that's the thing, you know. It's paid all the money and done all the training to kind of turn around and say, ouch, I'm done.

Speaker 1: 12:06

I've got a bad idea.

Speaker 2: 12:07

Yeah, the start gun adrenaline and the embarrassment were probably enough of a factor to mask the worst of the pain until I was able to sort of run it off. But equally, you know, night before didn't sleep a wink. No, you didn't do that, I had a cheap hotel in Paddington which came back to bite me in terms of the noise and just yeah, I should count for every minute from when I laid down at 830 right through to when I got up at 4am.

Speaker 1: 12:35

And you trained. The train was late getting in, wasn't it as well?

Speaker 2: 12:38

Yeah, yeah, so it's all you know factor things, but essentially I was starting the race almost a night of sleep down, as it was, which was my deal. But yeah, yeah, but no, the you know he said sort of to give me the race. It was yeah, positive, sort of first, well, not first third, I mean up to 30 miles. Things were good, you know I was moving.

Speaker 1: 13:03

well, yeah, you were going on a nice 11, 12 minute mile pace.

Speaker 2: 13:08

I remember seeing yeah, and amongst, amongst good company, you know a few people that I kind of fell into pace with, so I had some people to chat, to navigate with, those diversions off the park might have you, and yeah was moving fine, but it was about 30 miles onwards where you know, energy wise I was bang on, you know aerobically fine for energy. The things just started to hurt, you know bloats, quite quickly we're starting to starting to feel it knees, feet, everything basically was starting to hurt pretty much from 30 miles onwards and that was just the story of it all. From that point, you know, I was taking paracetamol in every drop bag so they'd stations on that event were pretty much every 25 miles.

Speaker 2: 14:01

So you pretty much doing a marathon between stops, and I had everything ready. So I had a little zip bag that had all of the next bits of fuel in it, with the number of miles on the outside of the bag. So that was what I was going to grab. And then that was to paracetamol tablets, which I would knock back at each one, and I wasn't convinced that was doing much until I skipped them at bath. So I thought I want to be able to take a dose of paracetamol before bed.

Speaker 2: 14:29

So, I'm going to skip this one, so I'm not in the risk of overdosing. Oh my God, did I notice the difference with that final bit to to? Breast milk Any paracetamol.

Speaker 1: 14:39

For anybody listening, just just a little quick background there. James is a lead pharmacist for an NHS trust, so so he knows what he's doing with his, his doses and things. So just don't, don't. Don't go out doing this sort of stuff yourself If you don't know what you're doing.

Speaker 2: 14:55

particularly don't get any ibuproofing right, james, while you're on it never, never, I've got a different one on steroid or in a race. It was bad things to your kidneys. So yeah, let's make sure you after a race and peeing regularly and clearly when we start touching on the roof and but paracetamol, I knew I wasn't going to be finishing a marathon any quicker than four to six hours.

Speaker 2: 15:18

So on that basis, yeah it was a comfortable taking those things up that way. But I think I said to you quite quite soon after the event, nick, that I think strength work and a lack thereof in this training block of me by my own decision played a part in in me feeling feeling it so much, so quickly, because obviously I've done, you know, I've done Other events that were over 30 miles, probably previous to that, and hadn't started to feel the aches and pains as quickly.

Speaker 1: 15:52

So you're doing strength work. That you know. No, I wasn't.

Speaker 2: 15:56

And that's a testament to that. I think that you know I had the aerobic base there to carry on, but the, you know, the muscles just weren't strong enough to deal with that. So I'm a link over 30 mark. You know 30 miles.

Speaker 3: 16:12

So, would you say, the reason for you not doing the strength work was that was so you said you made that decision. Was that purely because of the amount of miles you had to fit in for training and kind of fitting that training in a round life, work, family? Was it a sacrifice you decided to make?

Speaker 2: 16:34

Exactly that. So I was, I was paying for the gym up until Christmas of this year and I was just I wasn't getting in there. You know it was first year, first year a month and I wasn't making use of it. But trying to get three runs a week into my life, you know, with family and work, is already kind of, you know, a push in particular and you've got those big mile weeks where it's a 20 mile or on a weekend Like that's always a bit of a political negotiation at home.

Speaker 2: 17:08

So yeah trying to just get those three runs through and then also say I was also going to go to the gym for 30 minutes, 40 minutes, two, three times a week. It just wasn't what's going to happen. So you know, purely because of the waste of money, I sacked it off.

Speaker 1: 17:26

And we'll come on to sort of your, your training in a bit. And I do want to talk a little bit about why your training is the way it is, so we'll come back to that. I definitely want to talk about why you don't do strength work because people listening will be like particularly any athletes, like coach will be like what the fuck you make me do strength training. But James is a slightly exceptional case and I'll come to that in a bit. So that's the 30 miles.

Speaker 2: 17:57

Yeah, I think started to. I mean I was slowing down, I was, I think I was pretty much power walking from 30 miles, which you know. The fact I walked 115 miles rather than running was in itself something of a sort of, I guess, a psychological challenge, but I was managing to pretty much hit, you know, four miles an hour, power walking, which would have been tolerance of what I was happy with, face wise to get around. But, yeah, just lost many, many people of company. It was always a kind of case of chunking it up and being like, okay, onto the next aid station, don't think beyond that, just that's where you get you know, some human company for 10, 15 minutes to just get there. Keep going. I mean, you know it's a great, it's a great race in terms of and I know you joked a bit about it, nick, and said it was your idea of how really kind of doing flat miles along along waterways, but it was mixed because it wasn't, it was kind of rivers.

Speaker 2: 19:12

I mean, you did loads of the Thames path so I think we hit quite a lot of what's covered by Thames path races and you're going through, you know, maidenhead, henley, like all these really beautiful Thames side towns and villages, so you know it's a real variation of scenery and what have you that did kind of add to the experience. But yeah, I think at that point it was just a case of kind of carrying on. I was holding off on cat, that was the other thing as well. I held on caffeine so I didn't bring caffeine into the mix until 50 miles, I think maybe even 75.

Speaker 2: 19:56

So I had non caffeine gels in my bag. So that point. And for sure caffeine does have some of those perceived pain properties for me. You definitely notice it. So you know. Again, the moment that the goo gels which I was using with caffeine in started getting to the mix that was again helping a bit, were just taking that edge off.

Speaker 1: 20:20

The rock team.

Speaker 2: 20:22

No, I didn't use those ones. No, it was just a standard, the goo gel sort of slight variance in caffeine in each one. Yeah, that was fine. Food was fantastic. You know, I was able to eat. I was eating McCain's, mccain's microwave chips, mccain's pizzas, tinned ravioli and like yeah, and nothing troubled my stomach, which which is, which is remarkable, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 20:54

Because when we first started well, first started working together your gut was your biggest Achilles heel.

Speaker 2: 21:02

That was anything beyond the marathon. It was my gut. That was the rate limiting step to being able to really progress.

Speaker 2: 21:11

Yeah and it's learning what works for me and the single most important thing there is hydration. So you know those eyebrows raised by some of the other guys at the event. Actually, when I was sort of bang on about the fact that I was having to carry four litres of water between aid stations because I wanted to be doing 500 dish meals, an hour of fluid consistently and I would be like be a mad, you don't carry all that, I was like I do, I know, I do and I, you know, I did not have a moment issue with my stomach. I didn't even go for a probe until I was back home.

Speaker 2: 21:52

Which is a little bit different from when you did Race of the Stones, when we first started Exactly where you know you were running me in for the last last 18 miles or so and I was hopping over the fence and there were people that did complain of the classic, you know, nausea and vomiting overnight. So, and I did, wasn't in that category. So I think that was something to be said there around the keeping up with the drinking. Yeah, no, fueling was fine, and then it was just, it was into the, into the darkness. So out came the blood casts to kind of, you know, keep, keep, keep, keep me some company, what have you?

Speaker 2: 22:29

And yeah, it was only then that, you know, the tiredness and the fatigue really started to kick in. So you know my I was moving walking along and my eyelids just wanted to shut, like I could not fight the desire of my eyes to want to shut. And I'm thinking to myself I'm walking along this windy and the paths around the you went out to the Kenya were particularly kind of precarious. So the banks dropped away.

Speaker 2: 22:57

So you have to make sure you're stepping over that, you're going into the water and I'm thinking. I'm in the dark, I'm on my own, my eyes don't want to stay open and there's a body of water next to me.

Speaker 1: 23:06

Yeah, and it's going to be really cold overnight as well. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:12

Yeah, it dropped a bit, so I think I'd go on a long, a long sleeve later. We were really lucky with the weather. Actually, you know, it could have well been grim, as it's been actually all over the summer. Yeah, I ended up resourcing to power napping.

Speaker 2: 23:28

So, I basically gunned for the next available bench. Once the top of getting more established, lay down on the bench, set an alarm on my phone for 10 minutes and pretty much just dropped into a coma for 10 minutes and then would be woken up by my phone and it was just enough to take the edge off the things. So I did that twice just around that kind of nighttime into the early morning hours until you know your hormones pick up again and you realize it's another day and your body kind of you through. Yeah, you couldn't stop for more than 40 minutes, otherwise that was count as a DNF. Oh, really, yeah, and you're supposed to ring in to the race director if you were stopped planning to stop for more than 30 minutes on your own. So to the end I'll start with these little 10 minute blasts so you might have to make in the cuts as well, and it seems to go okay and yeah, that kind of. Then takes us onto the grind, really towards Bradford and even where the DNF decision nearly happened.

Speaker 1: 24:37

And what did it feel like when you cross that line? What went through your mind at that? I'm trying to sort of you know, I haven't done a race that long and I'm just trying to picture, you know, the. Is it elation? Is it? Is it? You know, thank fuck, that's done? Or is it like, yes, you know, real pumped, I've just done it? Yeah, like you would, when you, when you finish in a 10k, I just can't imagine your body knows what the hell to do. Well, your mind knows it.

Speaker 2: 25:07

Yeah, I think, I think it's really the middle. I think it was the relief. It was almost like, okay, this is over, I'm done, like I can just stop now. That said, like you, just you, just in this place, where you're just going, and you know it could have been another 10 miles, 15 miles or that, but we and nothing would have really changed because it was just the same. You know, shuffle along, you know eat, drink, repeat, basically. But no, it was. You know, obviously I was happy, I was proud of myself, I was third to last in the end, which was fine by me, given that you know what do you work?

Speaker 2: 25:49

15, 20, 15, 20 miles ago.

Speaker 1: 25:52

You weren't because you there were 55 starters and there were 27 finishes.

Speaker 2: 25:56

This, this is true. Okay, so after 27 finishes. So you know delusions are being done by 10 o'clock and get you know, being around in Bristol to get the last train home wasn't how it panned out, but you know the fact, as I say, that my race, had I been given my wishes, was over 20 miles ago. The fact that I was, I was, at the finish line was, you know, massive for me.

Speaker 1: 26:23

So yeah, yeah, and I still remember the picture you took afterwards. You know you still had the way with all to send me a picture of you in front of the, the finishes board and, you know, pumping the air and yeah, it was all quite quick to be fair and I got in.

Speaker 2: 26:38

they did me a Cornish pasty, which was absolutely amazing, and my my friend that comes pick me up was very kind of waiting at the finish line, but I was probably only there about 15 minutes before I was jumping into his car and and was in, was in back home that the rain, so hadn't rained at all really. I remember I have a little bit of dress at some points throughout the race but it absolutely went biblical. Like five minutes after I got into the finish tent, which you wouldn't have seen coming because it was also pitch black so you can't see the sky above you, just pitch a heaving of dark clouds. So I kind of felt for the last two people that were out there because there would have been no chance to go out to roof on and it was probably like super saturating that rain where you didn't stand a chance.

Speaker 1: 27:28

Wow, I mean, what one achievement. And you know, just, it's stories like that, and this is why I sort of wanted to do this podcast in the way I wanted it in the way I set out to do is, yes, you know we've got some big names like Beth Pascal and Andy Berry, but also, you know, you see those people on social media all the time, you know winning stuff, winning stuff, and people don't see and hear of some of these real stories sometimes, and for me, particularly in the ultra running world, for me that's like that's pure ultra running, that is, that is gritting out, and it isn't all about fast times and you know, seeing these top, elite athletes springing over the line after running 100 miles it's these awesome stories, are this that it's like that's just unreal, unreal. So, yeah, all coolos to you for finishing the race, mate, because that's insane, absolutely yeah, I couldn't have done a 50k along a canal. I get too bored.

Speaker 3: 28:35

Nor could I. It's my worst nightmare. It's my worst nightmare. I just don't know how you did it.

Speaker 1: 28:44

James, thank you for telling us about the race. So, um, what I wanted to sort of then follow that up with is is a little bit about you, because I already mentioned that you are a lead pharmacist for an NHS trust mental health trust in in Wiltshire, which is an extremely busy job. You've got two young kids, six and two. Yeah, yeah, um, you know two kids, six and two. You know we already said that. You already said you know that you can only run three days a week and you know I I've always said that you know strength training is such a huge, important part of being a good runner.

Speaker 1: 29:28

But you know there was that decision with you that because you only have those three days a week that you can train, that actually let's not push getting you into the gym, because you know we need to keep that running volume up. That is important. But, um, you know, with with you being able to only train three days a week, sort of talk us through a little bit about um, about what your training has been like. And you know I want to toot my own horn a little bit as my podcast. I'll do what I want, um, so it'd be great to hear you know what. What has your training been like? And we are working with me over there, you know, not just for this race, but over the last few years.

Speaker 2: 30:10

Yeah, no, um, you know, I think you can look around you other people doing same distance, even shorter distances, particularly on social media, and there's always this you kind of get with their training plans and you've alluded to it before where often it's ones they've kind of got off the internet, or three ones that the events put together, and there's always these massive mile weeks, you know, first plus mile long run for stuff.

Speaker 1: 30:38

And I remember that, um, I remember that race to the stones Um plan that you got from the Facebook group, wasn't it when we first started working together? And it was like three, three weeks of 30 plus miles in a row Long run.

Speaker 2: 30:52

Yeah, and you know, I think the thing with you was you always said you know, philosophy wise, you don't need to do that, like there comes a point where the long run becomes too long and actually you're doing damage that you're then not going to bounce back from when you need to be out two days later doing your next run.

Speaker 2: 31:10

So you know, that was always appealing to me, that you know the long run regardless of the distance of the event. You know we're talking about 145 miler and that wasn't distinctly different, if at all, from other stuff that's been much shorter, you know. Um, so yeah, those long runs, never being that long, were key because of, as I said you know, sort of hinted earlier is time out the house with a family. That's always a tough one to try and manage, couple of the facts that I'm not really a morning person. You've always been one that's more naturally at bed at 5am, cup of coffee and in your garage and your gym. Like that's not me, I want to stay in bed as long as I can and I will try and eat out as late as start time as possible of those long runs as I can negotiate with with my better half.

Speaker 2: 32:05

Um, so yeah, I mean otherwise, the weekday stuff. Again, the sessions were always about an hour, hour and a half maybe tops, which is is you know, was generally manageable, which, again is you know, as I say, it's just key for trying to fit in around getting home, helping out with the kids and then still trying to fit that in of an evening. So you know, I feel the positives were that there was never an unrealistic ask of a session. And yeah, I'm a little bit obsessive, I guess that, like I want to make sure that I've tried to tick the box with things. So if it says do that distance, I do that distance. I have been slapped on the wrist previously for cutting short the warm up and warm down elements.

Speaker 1: 32:59

The actual.

Speaker 2: 33:02

You know the interval elements of a speed session. I would always want to try and deliver. So, yeah, nice, and that's. It's worked to me, as I and I think the the proofs in the pudding that you know you can do 145 miles off of a 23 mile long run, the same as you could have if you'd done it even further, even more potentially resting wrist injury in the process.

Speaker 1: 33:29

So yeah, yeah, I think my, you know that's that is my philosophy. Anybody I work with it's and I have the saying I say over and over again running should fit into your life, not life fit into your running. And I just think that's so important to not just manage training load. Because you know with you and you know family life and work life and you're just generally being as busy as you, as you are, if I forced you into saying, look, you've got to do a fourth run a week, not only is that going to upset things at family life, potentially, you know, make things harder at work. That then escalates into stress and we already know that training is stress.

Speaker 1: 34:13

So when you add life stress on top of training, stress you just that is just a recipe for injury, illness and you know, at best you go in I'm not fucking enjoying this anymore and falling out of love with the sport that you clearly do love. So you know and I do that with all of my athletes it's never about more, more, more. It's about what can you do and how can we best utilize that time to get you the result that you want. And you know, not saying that my coaching is absolutely. You know, everything to do with your success, because I keep saying it, you know, over and over your mind is, you know, is a big part.

Speaker 1: 34:54

And that is, and that's also part of the reason why I don't give stupid, stupid long runs, because at a certain point ultra running becomes less about the physicality and more about the mind and reducing the amount of things that can go wrong. And you know, you mentioned actually with your, with the eight stations, when you got to the eight stations you had things in a bag which had you know written down how many miles that eight station was actually getting super organized and all that kind of stuff. I think you know we talked about some of the stuff, some of that stuff when we did Endure 24, making sure that you've got things in bags and it's all nice and organized, because the last thing you want to be doing when you're in an eight station at you know 125 miles, is thinking, oh, what am I supposed to be having this fuel now? So you know, all of that stuff that we've done together is, yeah, it's paying off.

Speaker 2: 35:50

So yeah, yeah, and I think you know that that mental game is, is is massive because, you know, beyond a certain point, everyone is hurting physically and so it's a case of what you made of mentally, as to how you're going to manage that being in that situation which you put yourself in and tolerating it and also overcoming things that are coming, you know, coming at you, be that weather tripping over you know GI issues like what are you made of mentally. That means you're just going to stick in, stick it out and then carry on, and that, I think, is that's a harder thing. I guess to probably coach and coach someone in.

Speaker 1: 36:38

I think that's part of yeah there is some mental stuff that you know, some of that mindset stuff that we do talk about, you know, I do talk about with everybody really, you know, but it is the harder thing, because the mind is much harder to train than the body, that's for sure.

Speaker 3: 36:57

So, James, you are incredibly versatile, having run like PBs at a 5k distance, but then also you know, recently run 145 miles. Have you had enough time to think about what you want to want, what you'd like to do next? What kind of challenge race would you like to have a go at next?

Speaker 2: 37:21

That's a good question and a conversation that has been had many a time at home around ultra running. Yeah, I mean, you're right, I've always been a little bit torn that you know as much as I like I've like doing the long stuff I've. I also still like trying to go fast and see how fast I can go, I guess before biology and age. But an end to getting faster You've got plenty of time yet, mate.

Speaker 2: 37:50

Plenty of time yet, yeah so you know, I've, you know. Still, the appeal of chipping away what I would like to be a sub-free marathon one day and just getting faster over the short stuff definitely appeals. I mean, events wise, I'm signed up to the Archive Attrition 50 Mylar in January, which I signed up to the day it opened, because it's one of those ones or if you don't get in there on on opening day, you don't get in.

Speaker 2: 38:22

So I just kind of jumped in there and got a diary pretty much a year in advance, I think in. In retrospect I probably wouldn't have entered that event, but I'm in it now.

Speaker 1: 38:37

And you couldn't get any different to Kenneth and Oya, though so it's much less than flat. It's not in the summer.

Speaker 2: 38:45

No, I'm kind of. I'm kind of questioning coastal passing, dark, wet, windy conditions, and because I am a bit of a fair weather runner, I don't really like wet and dark.

Speaker 1: 38:56

So you didn't enjoy breaking the cardiff, did you?

Speaker 2: 38:59

I wasn't the greatest. I won't be wearing water proof socks. This one that way.

Speaker 1: 39:05

So just just just a comedy, comedy moment. So James War, waterproof seal skins I'm going to call them out seal skin socks Waterload of shit, because his feet were like water balloons. For seven and a half hours you had to empty your socks in your one aid station.

Speaker 2: 39:23

Wasn't even a station in the middle of a road, but yeah, there was literally, it was like a, like a blister of water around my foot. So I just took the sock off and you, you could pour you know a decent number of mills of water to straight out the sock. So, yeah, my feet probably ended up worse for wear because they were almost just it was biblical.

Speaker 1: 39:42

What was it, storm Dennis?

Speaker 2: 39:45

It was a name. It was a named one, wasn't it?

Speaker 1: 39:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was a tough day, yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:50

But now he's say, yeah, I'll come to 50 coming up. So I, you know, I've kind of said to Nick I was going to give myself a month or so just to get back to some sense of feeling good in myself again after this race and then and then turn turn sights towards that.

Speaker 1: 40:06

But yeah, beyond that I kind of this is looked all right the last few days.

Speaker 2: 40:09

So, yeah, but I've kind of decided that if the next year mainly a negotiation with my wife as much as anything that I'm going to have an off year from from ultras next year focus more on the shortest stuff. I guess you know a reflection of being, you know, a coached runner and doing ultras, whilst also kind of being a local runner in a running club, is often trying to meet the agendas of both. Where you know, running clubs into leagues, there's lots of local short races that you know you want to be supporting. The learning points of the club Don't often, or certainly I wouldn't feel naturally kind of married up with those, those two training agendas. So, yeah, I think part of next year will be looking to do some of that local stuff, getting a bit faster and, yeah, we'll see, having more time at home. I guess we're running slightly less of an elephant in the room.

Speaker 1: 41:12

We have these conversations often, don't we? James Indeed.

Speaker 2: 41:16

Any other questions from you there, Faye?

Speaker 1: 41:18

So I was thinking to finish, do you want to?

Speaker 3: 41:21

tell us you know for other busy parents and you know professional people, how you know you've clearly gone through, how you've achieved that with Nick. In regards to you know it's not all about massive miles, it's about the quality of the sound. Massive miles, it's about the quality of the sessions. But what advice let's say one piece of advice would you give to them? You know, to kind of to make it work, to make that training work with you know life in general, because everybody's busy in different ways, how, what would be your one piece of advice that you'd give?

Speaker 2: 42:13

I think it's probably being willing to be flexible with how you're going to make it work. In an ideal world I would have always done my runs on the Tuesday, Thursday, the Sunday that they were mapped into the plan. I would do them at the peak point in the day where I was going to feel at my freshest field. Whatever, that isn't the way it works. It will often be. I've got a late shift on a Tuesday at work, so I'm going to do my Tuesday run. On the Monday and Thursday I've got to pick my son up from swimming and then I've got to eat, so I'm actually not going to get out until nine o'clock that night to get that run in. It's going to be nine o'clock as I said, it's often getting up earlier than some people might suit to get the big stuff in.

Speaker 2: 43:08

I think you've got to be prepared to flex and bend around life but still see the value in the session. Nick will say that dropping a run here or there isn't going to be detrimental to the overall aim, which is perfectly. I've done that and it is true. But I think if you end up cutting too much of it and dropping sessions I'm sure it's, I guess you it's then be hard at the end, if you were to fall short of your goal, to ask yourself those questions of what went wrong. At least, if I've stuck to the plan as much as I could, then that's one less thing to point out as a reason why it didn't work out.

Speaker 1: 44:02

It's getting that bit right. Yes, I will say and I do say to people I'm not working with professional athletes who do this for a living and I would expect just the same as we all do turning up for work each day. You'd expect them to do the sessions unless there's an injury or something. With people like yourself, it is Life happens and that's it's okay. If you miss the odd session, okay, we also need consistency. If you're missing one session every week, then you're potentially, in your case, missing 33% of your training. That hasn't happened to you.

Speaker 1: 44:40

The odd session, it is literally with you. I mean, your training peaks is green, green, green, green, green, green, green, green, orange, red, green, green, green, green, green. Your compliance is fantastic. It is getting that balance right and you're right with the flexibility part and that's where you and I've worked well together over the years to ensure that what you've got going on in your life works for your training and your training works for your life. Yeah, cool, james, it's been a great avenue on the show. I look forward to getting you ready for the Archive Attrition. That's going to be a big challenge for both of us. We need to get you on a stepper if we don't get you down to the coastal path because there's a lot of steps, particularly in that last 5k. Oh my God, there's a lot of steps. But yeah, look forward to another challenge and thank you for coming on the show.

Speaker 2: 45:41

Nice one, cheers, nick, thanks.

Speaker 3: 45:43

James, thank you.

Speaker 2: 45:46

Cheers both.