Maximum Mileage Running Podcast
"Welcome to the Maximum Mileage Running Podcast – 'Real Chat for Real Runners.'
Join your hosts, Nick Hancock, a UESCA and UK Athletics certified running coach, and Faye Johnson, a UK Athletics running coach and Level 4 PT, and Matt Scarsbrook, Soft Tissue expert and one of Nick's own coached clients, on an epic journey into the world of marathon and ultramarathon running!
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The Maximum Mileage Running Podcast is for those who love to run long, run strong, and have a good laugh along the way. Subscribe now and make every run count."
Maximum Mileage Running Podcast
Bob Becker at 80: Badwater 135, Marathon des Sables & the Secrets to Ultra Longevity
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In this episode of the Maximum Mileage Running Podcast, I sit down with ultrarunner and race director Bob Becker, who at 80 years old became the oldest finisher in history of Badwater 135, one of the toughest ultramarathons in the world.
Bob shares his journey into ultrarunning, including his early experience at the Marathon des Sables, and what it takes to train, fuel, and stay resilient across decades in the sport. From racing in extreme heat and managing sleep deprivation to building durability and preventing injury, this conversation is packed with insights for runners at every level.
I also dive into Bob’s work as a race director through Ultra Sports, LLC, where he created and leads iconic events like the KEYS100 Ultramarathon (https://keys100.com/) and the Daytona 100 Ultra (https://daytona100ultra.com/). His races have introduced thousands of athletes to ultrarunning while supporting charitable causes including cancer research.
Whether you’re training for your first ultramarathon or looking to stay consistent long-term, Bob’s story offers a powerful perspective on longevity, mindset, and what’s possible at any age.
🔗 Learn more about Bob Becker: https://bob-becker.com/
I would love to hear your thoughts on this episode. Follow and DM me on Instagram at coach_hannah_witt. You can also email me at hannah@maximummileagecoaching.com. I want to hear from you!
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Welcome back to the Maximum Mileage Running podcast. Today we've got a very special guest, Bob Becker, someone who truly redefines what's possible in endurance running. At 80 years old, Bob became the oldest finisher in the history of Badwater 135, and his story is not just about performance, but about longevity, resilience, and doing the sport for life. Bob is actually someone I've known for years. I first met him at the Delray Beach Running Company, and he's been an inspiration to me ever since. Watching the way he approaches running, racing, and life has really shaped how I think about what's possible long-term in this sport. On this podcast, we are all about helping runners train smarter, stay consistent, and build the durability needed for challenging distances, whether that's your first ultra or your next big goal. And today's conversation is going to give you a real inside look at what that actually takes over decades, not just one race. If you're looking for support with your own training, especially for longer distances, you can follow me on Instagram at coach underscore Hannah underscore wit. And feel free to send me a direct message there, or you can email me directly at Hannah at Maximum MileageCoaching.com. And my name has an H on the end. So that's H A N N A H. I hope to hear from you. And let's get into this podcast with Bob Becker.
SPEAKER_01Hey everybody, we are here for another episode of the Maximum Mileage Running Podcast. And today we are so fortunate to have Bob Becker as a wonderful guest to get to know a little bit better. Bob is living proof that limits are far more flexible than we think. At 80 years old, he became the oldest finisher in history of the legendary Bad Water 135, one of the toughest races on earth. But his story goes beyond racing, from setting world records to reinventing his life at 63 as an ultra marathon race director. Today we're diving into what it really takes to build durability, resilience, and a lifelong pursuit of what's possible. Bob, we're so fortunate to have you on today. How are you?
SPEAKER_02I'm great, Hannah. Thank you. Very, very glad to be with you. You'll forgive me if I'm a little bit jet lagged. I just got home yesterday from uh a two-week trip to China where I ran a race and then did some sightseeing and had an absolutely incredible time. So again, just off of like 25 or 30 hours of travel. So most of my brain is together. We'll see how much in a hit over the next hour.
SPEAKER_01What was the name of the race that you did in China?
SPEAKER_02Well, it's the race is called the Mount Galagong Ultra. It's uh put on by an international company that uh owns some brands like Solomon and Puma and others, and it's in a city in the southwestern corner of China, Yunnan Province, near the Myanmar border. It's an ultra marathon. I ran there 10 years ago on the inaugural race, and they invited me, and there were about a dozen Americans, and most of us were invited back for this 10-year anniversary, and it was uh quite the extraordinary experience.
SPEAKER_01Sounds like it. Wow, that's amazing. What must that have been like as far as traveling there? Were you exhausted before you raced, or did you get there several days prior to kind of acclimate to the weather and the conditions and everything there? What did that look like prepping for that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it was tough because it was about getting there was three separate flights. From I live in Florida, so Florida to LA, LA to a city in the center of uh China called Chengdu, and then from Chengdu to Tengchang, which is the city where the uh where the race took place. So it was like 30 hours all in. And then when we got there, instead of having a lot of downtime, we were pretty much chaperoned, I suppose is the word, but driven to see various places along the course to actually have some video and photography done, which was all great. It just didn't give us a lot of downtime. So by the time the race started, we weren't a hundred percent recovered. We were in pretty good shape. But you know, it was it it takes its toll. I mean, it does. So if I were to do it again, I would uh try to get a little downtime and you know negotiate a little of that as soon as we landed, you know. But otherwise, it was uh just spectacular in every respect. And the the production is like any unlike anything I've ever seen anywhere in the world. Um pretty pretty impressive. There's some videos and that are online and more that we'll be sharing that I think sho will show that. But the course itself is a very difficult mountain course, extremely so uh mostly ups and downs, very little flat. It's a somewhat semi-tropical area, actually, so it's pretty jungly in some places. It's a little wet at times, so it's a it can be a little slick, and the trails can be pretty technical. So steep ups, steep downs, you know, all that the world can, you know, all that Mother Nature can throw at you, this race does. But it's it's a beautiful place with people who are extremely welcoming, very respectful of uh and thankful for Americans, because during World War II, Americans and Chinese fought together on the ground against the Japanese right in this area. And to this day, they they credit Americans with having helped liberate their their province. So there's a lot of uh long-term memory, a lot of respect, and it's it's so it makes it a very interesting and enjoyable place to be for us, no question about it.
SPEAKER_01That sounds really fantastic. Where can, or what is the name of the YouTube channel where the footage is being shared? I don't have it yet.
SPEAKER_02I don't know, but I can certainly certainly get that to you. I think people are posting at different places, certainly on Facebook, on YouTube, I'm sure, but I'm not I don't know. It's being it's being done individually. So each of us who were there kind of grabbing grabbing things and posting, but I can find out. I would I I need to. I just haven't focused there at all on my return home.
SPEAKER_01Yes, you have been world traveler, super jet lagged at this point. So how do you even cope with being like traveling for that amount of time and knowing that you're going to be putting your body through very grueling events? Do you have a protocol that you follow for when you get on the plane? Is it, you know, neck pillow, eye mask, and you're out, or what do you do?
SPEAKER_02I I'm one of those people who's fortunate enough to be able to sleep anytime, any place, lying down, sitting up, standing up while you're talking, while I'm talking, I can fall asleep. I mean, it's so I so I don't I don't always need to worry about neck pillows or anything else. Um you know I can usually sleep on the flight. So that's that's a real blessing. But you know, you're you're not gonna sleep for 25 or 30 hours. So um, you know, I'll read or watch a movie or something. There's no real trick. Part of it for me, I'm fortunate that I'm I'm small, so I can sit sit back there and coach and not be, you know, not be crippled by the time I arrive. But it's important to get up and walk around a little bit every few hours, not sit the entire time. That's I'm not disclosing anything new, but that is really an important thing to do. You know, some people use compression socks or or calf sleeves. I I don't, I tend to be okay. But yeah, you need to just factor factor that in that uh you're gonna, you know, it it it's it's gonna be challenging. And do your best to arrive early so you can get a little downtime, put your feet up and get some get some sleep and acclimate to the new time change. I mean, we're 12 hours uh the direct opposite, you know, the other side of the world and the other side of the clock. So 8 p.m. there was 8 a.m. here, and it does does take a little time to adjust.
SPEAKER_01But wow. And so when you're on the plane, do you do you have any kind of fuel or I guess you're pretty limited in what you can carry as far as you know, nutrition and hydration to make sure that you're keeping your electrolytes topped off. You kind of just play it by ear and eat plain food, or what do you do?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I mostly bring stuff with me. If if plain food is something I choose to eat, then great, that makes it a lot easier. I'm I'm a vegan and for the most part try to stay with that. Sometimes it's not possible when you're traveling, but as much as possible I do. So, you know, plain food is you know, not the greatest. So I'll bring stuff with me, and uh it's mostly items that I'll be using when I'm when when I'm running during the race. So if I don't eat it on the plane, I'll I'll eat it during the race, basically. But yeah, no, yeah, I think you need to be prepared for not being offered anything you'll want, and uh so you're not going without calories and of electrolytes or whatever you feel you need. I mean you can get water always, but other than that, it's a you know it's a crapshoot.
SPEAKER_01Sure, yeah. Wow. So as far as traveling is concerned, I'm thinking about the gear and everything that you need to actually race because obviously you're doing ultra distances and you have to pack your fuel and hydration and on your desk, your poles. I'm sure you have a lot that you have to be very strategic about when traveling. What does that look like?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it it looks like a lot of weight. And lots of money, right? Well, it's you know, there are limits, and in fact, we were we're over the limit. Now, my my wife actually traveled with me this time, and a close friend of mine from here in Fort Lauderdale was running also. So the three of us were kind of traveling together the the entire time. But got to the airport and uh and we were uh one one suitcase was at the limit, the other one was way over it, and you know, I was very stupid about it. I didn't plan at all, and it cost 150 bucks for the overweight bag. So yeah, you wanna word of advice that I learned the hard way, you want to be very careful about making sure you're not over the limit. But yeah, you're bringing a lot of gear and you never know what you're gonna need. You never know what you're gonna run into out there, so you have to be ready for anything. So yeah, it's it's a trick to to balance bringing enough of the right things, but not too much that you're gonna cause a weight problem and an extra expense.
SPEAKER_01Right. You mentioned that it was very jungly, I guess tropical conditions where you were and trying to anticipate what to wear, and you know, as far as moisture and having multiple pairs of different things because you're I don't know, what's the weather like there right now? Did you have to go through different kinds of microclimate zones where there was rain or there was more heat or cooler things like that?
SPEAKER_02It's a good question. Yeah, it started off fairly chilly, but I mean, where you are in the mountains in North Carolina, not so much, but you know, we were looking at early spring weather there. So it was, I don't know, I think at the start it was early low 50s, maybe. Went up into the 70s, so reasonable. But rain is always uh a possibility there, and we did have some rain early on that made it slick, some light rain. Later in the race, there was some heavy rain. So you wanted it, then there were some required safety items as well. So, because it's a pretty isolated area. I mean, there were aid stations along the route, but between aid stations, there were you you were pretty isolated. So, yeah, you had to you had to have certain rain gear, you had to have extra clothing in case it got cold, and and other things. And so you were carrying stuff in your pack that you might or might not ever need, some some uh safety food, a certain amount of food, a first aid kit, and certain other things, obviously night, night uh you know, headlamps or whatever you wanted to bring, but but lighting. And we ran into a you know a little bit of everything. It can get extremely stormy and cold, but that didn't happen. And that isn't really typical for this time of year, but you are required to carry some insulated clothing with you in case that happened. If that if that answers the question, yeah, it was very little sunshine. You we could have had a totally sunny day, but did not. And in some respect, you know, that was good. We didn't have a heat problem to deal with. But the early light rain did make some of the spots slick. You know, at one point I did a real nice total head over heels somersault. Came up okay. But yeah, you it it was it was a challenging course, no question about it.
SPEAKER_01All right, well, we're glad that you're back safely, back in Fort Lauderdale. So a little bit about your origin story. Are you originally from Fort Lauderdale?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I've been here about 25 years. Born in New England, but moved to Maryland when I was 13 in the DC suburbs and lived there most of my life until the early 90s when I moved out to the Midwest for seven years and then here for the last 25. So I've been, you know, living in various places.
SPEAKER_01Right. Have you always been kind of an athletic person, or when when did you kind of get more so into ultra-marathon running?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I've always played sports in high school. I played basketball and ran ran track, but ran the mile. But after that, dur as an adult, I really didn't run. I was, I mean, other than a little bit to stay in shape, go to the gym and play sports, is what I did until really 2002, which was the year after I moved here. And I got a call from some friends in Minnesota who said they were running their first marathon up there, grandma's in uh in Duluth. And would I come up and run it with them? Sounded like a great excuse for a party. So I went out to a running shoe store and bought a pair of shoes and asked the person in the store, okay, what do I do now? And they they put me in touch with the marathon training group. So I ran grandma's. I was going to be a one and done, but I ran well. I qualified for Boston and I figured, well, I gotta do that. So one thing led to another, and you know, I continued training. And one day in 2004, some one of the guys I ran with asked me if I'd ever heard of the marathon to some, said it's an ultramarathon. And I asked him, What's an ultramarathon? Because as late as 2004, I really had no idea. So I went home and checked it out, and MDS was the following April 2005. And my friend who had mentioned it to me was turning 40 and I was turning 60. And I said, Why don't we give ourselves a big birthday present and go run this thing in the in the Sahara Desert in Morocco? And that's what we did. And I fell in love with ultra running and the camaraderie and the entire culture of the sporting and been doing ultras ever since. So kind of just fell into it.
SPEAKER_01Right. You say fall into it, but it's I'm thinking about you're taking up running after kind of casually jogging, staying basically fit, you know, but then getting more serious about it before training for grandmods. And you make it sound like, oh yeah, I got in shape and I I ran well and I qualified for Boston. I think that you're either downplaying a lot of hard work or you're just such a naturally gifted athlete that you were just able to pick it up like that and able to compete very well. Do you I I'm absolutely convinced that you are a naturally talented athlete, but do you remember it being hard to get back into running consistently, doing marathon mileage, that kind of thing?
SPEAKER_02Well, honestly, I did the work and I still do the work, and uh I can talk about what I currently do at any time. But uh yeah, the training with that group in Fort Lauderdale, uh Friends in Training, was I think the the reason why I was able to do well because it's specifically geared to training people to uh to run a marathon, and their their their program is covers everybody from walkers to relatively elite runners, and uh at and so it's groups within a group. And it's a really great program. I worked hard at it, but it was their direction and guidance that really got me to the point where I could run well. And yeah, there's a certain amount of natural ability, I suppose, there. And I and again, I've always been athletic, so it wasn't like I was uh coming off the sofa and never having done anything for you know 20 years or something like that. So so yeah, it was a combination, but definitely the training helped a lot. And after that, I wound up just uh working out with a kind of a higher level of athlete here, a group, an informal group, one that had been running together for a long time, learned a lot from them. And uh that was a group where I you know developed this friendship with this fellow that asked me about it if I'd heard of MDS. So and after that, really in preparation for that first race, I met Lisa Smith Batchin, hyphenated last name. Lisa and her husband Jay were the American liaisons for the Marathon de Sab, which is a French-owned and run race. And they put on a training camp out in the Tetons that I went to, which was a huge help. And Lisa wound up becoming my coach and has for the last 22 years coached me for virtually every one of my races, certainly all my major races. And for the last three or four years, coaches me full-time year-round, whether I'm training for a specific event or not. And I give her all the credit for any success I've had. She's always had me ready, never over-trained to the point where I'm injured, but and trains age specifically and events specifically, so that I'm as ready as I can possibly be on race day. And for anybody out there listening and who's wondering about maybe how do I get into ultrarunning or something, I highly recommend a competent coach who can not only cover the running side of things, but all the other technical aspects that are involved in ultrarunning: nutrition, hydration, electrolyte replacement, foot care, clothing selection, shoe selection, all of it. It's it's uh, and she's you know for me, she's the best. She may not be a fit for everybody, but you're a coach, and I highly recommend, you know, working with a competent coach. It's just it makes all the difference in the world.
SPEAKER_01I obviously completely agree. I'm just thinking about, you know, you did this training camp in the Tetons to prepare for MDS. What did that kind of look like day to day? Because obviously those environments are similar, but how do you how do you prepare for something so extreme? What did that training camp look like?
SPEAKER_02Well, the camp itself was, as I remember, like five days maybe or so, and it was roughly, and it was run by Jay and Lisa, but also had she had a guest coach, Marshall Ulrich, who's a very legendary ultra runner and adventure racer. And the three of them had all done MDS multiple times. Lisa herself had actually was the only American woman to ever win it up until that point. So you had a lot of experience and a lot of confidence. Training in the mountains is something I, again, I couldn't do here in Fort Lauderdale because there are really no hills down here. There are no trails here. So that was a big, big help. And just acclimating to the ups and downs and the long hills, ups and downs. And actually, where we were, there's a an inland area where there were sand dunes, believe it or not. So, you know, how many gazillion years ago that area was covered by water, who knows? But we actually got to train in sand dunes in the middle of Wyoming, and and it was so it was very much race specific and really helpful to get an idea of what to do. Yeah, it was uh it was a big help.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think about running on sand. I used to live, you know, for about a year or so in South Florida, and I would do a lot of training on the beach, and I would be bad and run on sand dunes that you weren't supposed to run on because I didn't know any better. But I think about the difficulty that you experience running on sand. And if you, you know, do several miles on the beach and then you hop back on a concrete footpath to get back home or to your vehicle or whatever, it feels like the worst because your hamstrings have been working so hard on the sand, and then you get on to a stable surface and everything kind of locks up. You know, how how do you what what do you feel and what kind of mental training do you do when you're running on sand for such a long period of time? Does it kind of come naturally to you? What are some cues that you think of?
SPEAKER_02Well, that and it does no, it doesn't come naturally, if for sure, but because I am here at the beach and I live, I'm in Fort Lauderdale, but I also live right near the beach. I can I can and do when the when there's sand involved, run or walk on the sand. And I do a lot of walking, certainly at my age. I'm a big mix of walking as well as running. And it's important, you know, you're working on those little ligaments and everything in your ankles and your feet, and it's uh so it's really important. And it again, race specific training that I'm lucky enough to be able to do. So MDS is one is one example of a of a race where that's important. Another one that I've done 11 times is Badwater Cape Fear, which is a race that uh Chris Costman, the Badwater race director, puts On in North Carolina on Baldhead Island down there near near off Southport. And on in that, it's a 50-mile, there's a 50-kilometer event and a 50-mile event. So the first 10 miles are on the road on this beautiful island. And then you run a mile and a quarter through this forest, sort of like a transition. And then you go out to the beach and you're running on the sand for either 20 miles or 40 miles, depending on which distance you choose. Now that's not dunes, and it's relatively firmer packed sand, not like the Toad Beach, where you can drive on it, but more firm than what we have here. So training here for that race is really good because that's actually easier than this is. But for MDS, you know, all training camp was great. Being able to run here in the sand was great. But running on dunes and climbing those rocky, sandy mountains that are part of that race is, you know, it's a learning experience. You just get out there and basically do it. And like so much of ultrarunning, it's mind over matter. It's uh there's a there's a well-known Canadian adventurer, Ray Zahab, who's who's who's very quotable, and I think his best quote is that ultrarunning is 90% mental, and the rest is in your head. And I think he's about right. I mean, obviously you have to be trained, but it it becomes a mental game, is where I'm trying to go with this long-winded answer.
SPEAKER_01No, it's great. Thank you for all the information. I'm thinking of running 20 to 40 miles and like in Cape Pier on the sand and the camber, obviously, of sand going into the ocean. How does that not tremendously mess up the alignment of your hips and your whole kinetic chain? How do you contend with that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, it's a challenge, no question about it. Now, the way that race is set up is you're going out 10 miles and back 10 miles. So the camber means that you're, you know, you're leaning left for 10 miles and then leaning right for 10 miles and doing it twice. So it's it's a little better than a point-to-point where you're doing 20 or 40 only in one bodily direction, if you will. You know, again, for me, it's uh I have the good fortune of being able to train on this beach with the same camber issue. But otherwise, it's I don't know the answer to the question. I mean, it's I'm not I'm not sure how you simulate that. Maybe I'm sure that there actually there are probably ways to do it. I mean, some roads have that have camber built in for rain runoff, right? And maybe that's if you have to find a road like that where you can where you can train so that you're unbalanced in that respect. I I suppose that's what I would be doing if the sand wasn't here.
SPEAKER_01Do you do you do supplemental strength training to help with your running?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I do a mix of things. Uh I I go to the gym and I do lift weights. Lisa also has an online class for an hour twice a week that mixes balancing, weight, weightlifting, and her training regimen is very definitely not all about just long mileage. So I'm spending some time in the gym doing cross training on a bike or a stairmaster or you know, even a treadmill occasionally. And again, because unless you're an elite, you're going to do some walking during an ultra. And in my case, probably a 50-50 mix of running and walking. I spend a lot of time working on power walking to maximize my efficiency and my my relative speed at when I'm doing walking segments. That's really important to the overall, to your overall result. So it's a it's a real mix, yes.
SPEAKER_01Great. So let's dive in more to to Badwater. How many times have you raced Badwater?
SPEAKER_02Six. Uh raced is six times. I've been at Badwater every year for the last 18 years doing something, either crewing for somebody else or working on the staff or you know, or running it. You know, I've I've got the disease, you know. It's uh it's a great race. It's a real family event. You go out there, you see people you know, and it almost has its own little distinct culture. So it's something I look forward to to uh every year. So I've run it six times. I finished it officially four times and one time unofficially where I was 17 minutes over the cutoff. And then one year I had a DNF where I did not do well, I didn't handle my electrolyte and fluid balance well, and it was all on me. And at mile 42, I developed these severe cramps. And by the time the uh the real Charlie horsing where I could, you know, like scream out pain, right? And by the time I recovered from that and got back on the road, I was too late to miss the first cutoff at 50 mobs. So so I had to drop. So yeah, it's been a mostly a love relationship, but a little bit of love hate, you know. But it's a very, very tough race, but a absolutely wonderful race. And I'd recommend it to anybody that is so inclined. It's phenomenal.
SPEAKER_01I'm sure most of our listeners are familiar with Badwater, but just to give a little bit more background, you know, what are the top three toughest aspects of bad water in your regard? I'm thinking temperature, I'm thinking how much you climb, I'm thinking just being out in the desert and it feeling kind of like you're out there all by yourself, but I'm sure your top three might be different.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, you're pretty close. And it is you're in the desert. I mean, the the Badwater in Death Valley is the place the hottest temperature ever recorded on Earth was recorded there. So it officially is the hottest place on Earth. And it typically, and the race is held in July, so it's always held in the hottest month of the year by design. And typically you're looking at temperatures in the 120s, which is pretty warm. And you're running on road, not on sand, so you are on the road, but the road itself absorbs that heat during the day, and you know, there are times when that that heat can radiate back, and if you're not wearing leg covering, you're gonna like literally burn your legs. So it it gets pretty hot out there. So number one is the heat. Number two is the distance because it's 135 miles. There are really probably four top four. The third is sleep deprivation, because unless you're an elite, the race starts at night. So you're running through two nights. You have until well, until through the through last year, through 2005, you had 48 hours to finish the race. That's just been changed for this year to 45 hours, but you have 48. So you're running through two nights. And so sleep deprivation is a major thing. And then the fourth one is one you mentioned, which is elevation gain, because you're looking at about 15,000 feet of elevation gain. So there's plenty of hills to challenge you as well.
SPEAKER_01Do you feel like living in South Florida gives you a bit of an advantage, or would you say that heat out there is a lot different? I'm sure it's hotter, of course. And if you're in Fort Lauderdale, you do get a reprieve for by the ocean breeze helping with heat, but it's still pretty hot. You walk out the door and you're basically sweating instantly. What did what does training look like for bad water and how do you utilize your environment in South Florida?
SPEAKER_02Well, it's an advantage because of the heat and humidity. So the overall heat index, if you will, is really high. But because the heat is so dry out there, and when it's windy, it feels like you're, you know, you're there's a big hair dryer in your face. I spend a lot of time in a sauna too. So most most bad water runners do spend training time in a sauna getting used to that really high, that high dry heat. It's really an important thing. Some years you start the race and you've got that hot wind right in your face, and that makes it really, really hard because it it just saps the energy and also dries you out very quickly. So a very important, a real key component to being successful at Badwater is managing your hydration and electrolyte balance, which, as I told you earlier, I screwed up one year and did not do very well. But that's a race where you have a support crew that you typically will meet every two or three miles or so. That's your call, but tip that's typical. So you're leapfrogging your support crew, and they are being sure that at every stop you are, again, sufficiently hydrating, but also that you're taking inadequate calories and of a of a kind that you can actually keep down because heat makes it really hard to digest food. So with a with the right crew, providing the right kind of support makes all the difference in the world to being able to successfully finish that race. And they were a major reason why I was able to become the oldest finisher ever this past July when I ran the race. So Lisa was my crew chief. I mentioned Marshall Omerick earlier, who is a legendary ultra runner, and who's literally finished that race 20 times. So had all the experience in the world supporting me and keeping me going. And um, you know, like if I didn't want to eat and I was just uh just couldn't get it, couldn't get it down and didn't couldn't imagine eating anything, they would give me the tough love necessary to be sure I was taking in calories to be able to make it to the finish line. The last 13 miles are straight uphill at Mount Whitney to the to the portal, which is at 8,500 feet. So you still need to have some some energy to get that last 13 miles done to get to the finish line. So crew is vital. And again, that proper balance uh of nutrition, hydration, and all that is is especially important at Badwater.
SPEAKER_01I can imagine. Wow, what part of the day do you feel like is the hardest? Do you think the heat of the day or the night do you kind of start to get into your head a little bit more? I'm trying to imagine what that must feel like.
SPEAKER_02During the worst heat of the day, you know, you just basically need to slow down. And it you've got to just conserve some energy. And the toughest for me is the second night, because again, it's that sleep deprivation eventually catches up to you. Now, we had a game plan that basically was I wouldn't get any sleep. I mean, unless I was starting to hallucinate or really falling apart, that I would go the first roughly 75 miles, 80 miles, and it was about 80 miles, I guess, until the the beginning of the second night, like late afternoon, early evening was second day, when I would take an hour and a half, get in the vehicle where it's which is air conditioned, and just sleep for as much of that hour and a half as I could. And then uh there were two other 20-minute naps that I took during that night. And those were somewhat random, is when I just again started seeing things and it just needed a close needed to close my eyes, where a couple of additional naps helped. So that was it. That's all the sleep I had. I finished in 45 hours flat, which was three hours short of the cutoff. And the the race plan was spot on, and and the crew kept me on plan, which was which was vital. Some years out there I've needed more sleep, but most of the time I'm able to get through that first night. That's not so bad. But the second night's the toughest part.
SPEAKER_01You know, when you're training for an ultramarathon, and when you're actually racing, of course, people immediately think of the importance of nutrition, hydration, electrolyte balance, and of course, overall fitness. But I'm thinking also about your nervous system and why taking the sleep and giving your nervous system a break is so important because you don't immediately think, but the what's taxing being out there, having to be cognitively alert, you know, for that period of time is so taxing on your nervous system. Do you feel like out of those different categories, nervous system overstimulation? You mentioned sleep deprivation was the thing that you struggled with, but do you feel like that hydration, nutrition, the fitness part of it? Which aspect do you feel like you were thriving in? And which do you feel like that was probably the hardest part? Or did those things change throughout the race?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think they always change a little bit, and it's sort of like when you have your your highs and lows emotionally during a long race like that, and and inevitably you do. And the question I'm always asked is how you deal, you know, how do you deal with that? And then I suppose that's part of the that middle part. I always try to remind myself that first I chose to be out there. Secondly, that when it when I just want to say, Man, I've had enough. What the hell am I doing out here? This is crazy, which is something that can happen and does happen in a lot of races. I remember how great it feels to cross that finish line and how terrible it feels when you drop for whatever reason it might be and lament the next day about how differently it could have been if you had just done this or that a little differently. So I I'm I'm not somebody during a race who is writing the next great American novel in my head. I mean, I'm very much in the moment and focused on my next footfall and where I am. I will occasionally listen to an audio book or music, but pretty rarely actually. And I'm mostly just kind of there. And that's, I think, for me, what keeps me going and minimizing the any any other kinds of emotional or nervous issues. And I've been doing it now for long enough time where I kind of know what I'm doing and what I'm getting into, which is which certainly helps. But for anybody doing this uh kind of early on in their ultra career, you're gonna have those moments of ups and downs that just unavoidable. And the thing to try to train yourself to do is to again remember you chose to be there, how great it's gonna be when you finish. Bragging rights of forever, baby. And the same thing is true when you drop. So just try to take your stay stay in the moment if you're really not doing great. Take a break. Most races you've got time, get your head together, you know, hydrate a little, get something to eat, and then take a take a half an hour, take an hour if you need to. Don't drop precipitously. And so often as a race director, I see it all the time. When runners do that, they very frequently are able to get up and finish the race.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, let's that's a great segue into your profession as a race director. What kind of precipitated you becoming a race director?
SPEAKER_02When I get back from Marathon Desab in 05 and continue to train and work out, increasingly realized, looked around and realized there were just weren't very many races, certainly not in Florida, and there were none in South Florida at all. So some friends and I looked at it and said, I wonder if running the Florida Keys would could be viable for a race. As it turns out, Key Largo to Key West, which is basically the start and finish of the Keys, is 100 miles, right on the dot. So, and running from Key Largo to Key West, you're running over 42 islands, running up across these bridges that connect all these islands, some large, some small, with the Atlantic Ocean on one side and the Gulf of Mexico on the other. It's just beautiful ocean views. Unless you don't like turquoise water, it's a pretty cool place to be. And you wind up in Key West, which is a funky town and a great place to hang out for a couple of days after a race. So five of us went down there in 2007 and just we uh we stayed at a at a at a hotel at at there every mile is marked down there, so when you you you count down from Key Largo to Key West, Key West, mile zero, we were staying at mile marker 104, and we get up the next morning and we said, Alex, just start from here, and we just started running from 104 down to zero. And realized that, yeah, this this is pretty neat. This could be a race. So, having really no idea what we were doing, and particularly what I was doing, while we all said, yeah, this could be a race, everybody else had uh had a job, and I did too, but I was caught up in the uh the uh the real estate crash at that time and affected my career, my work. Basically, I decided uh to to try this thing and to see if I could make heads or tails out of it. So again, without having any idea what I was doing, we I I mean I named myself the Keys 100 Race Director. And in April in May of 2008, year one happened with 131 runners, and it went well. And from there the race grew, and I created and added other races as well, and it's been a full-time thing now for 18 years. So next month in May, almost you know, six weeks away, will be our 18th annual. And we'll have, as we had the last few years, about a thousand runners doing the race. And it's really a lot of fun. It's very gratifying, and it's great to see new people come into the sport. It's been one of the most uh gratifying parts of doing this all these years. And you know, so my my sport is and hobby is also my work and where my friends are, where my social life is. So it's I've been very very lucky to have been able to do this. And I don't know if you direct races yourself, Hannah, but I make the joke, but it was only half a joke that okay, in 2008 I I took a vow of poverty and became a race director. You know, you don't make a lot of money at this, but it sure has other benefits, there's no question about that.
SPEAKER_01For the Tease 100 that's happening in May, is it sold out already, or can people still sign up?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the 100-mile are just sold out, and uh we also have a 100-mile team relay, and I think that's like a two team or two away from selling out. We also have a 50-mile individual and three-person relay and uh and a 50k, and that those are not sold out, so there's there's still some room, and it's really a fun way to start the in those distances and still be able to get the experience of running in the keys, which is so unique. But yeah, it's it's it doesn't actually sell out every year, it's always very close, but we have sold out this year, so you know we do have a waiting list. Then many many people will get in because we we tend to have a lot of people that dropped the last two, three, four weeks from injuries or somebody's wedding that they didn't know they had to go to, or you know, a graduation or something. So yeah, I mean it's uh there's still some possibility that people could get into the hundred, but the other shorter races are still viable.
SPEAKER_01For the keys 100, you described race conditions, these bridges that go from island to island, and it does sound idyllic and you know, looking at the water and isn't that nice, but I think about the glare from the water and contending with that and contending with being basically out in the open, complete sun exposure with no reprieve from that. It's a tough race.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it it is. Keys 100 is is uh deceptively hard, and mainly it's because of the heat factor. You're right, there really isn't any shade, and you have uh the the temp temperature and humidity and intensity of this intensity of the sun all add to to a heat factor that is is absolutely the challenge, in addition to the distance. That's what makes it so hard. And it is a tough race. About 75-80% of it, you're running on bike paths or parallel pedestrian bridges, or the there's an old road that parallels the one highway that goes all the way down through the quay. And so about 20, 25 percent of it, you're on the road shoulder facing traffic, which includes Seven Mile Bridge, which is what it says. It's a seven-mile-long bridge that we cone off. And again, you are you are exposed. Now, I've never really had anybody complain so much about the glare from the water being a problem. I mean, obviously you're wearing sunglasses, and if you're smart, you're covering up with the hat and the neck drape and so on, but that hasn't been the problem. But the heat per se is something that you need to manage. Now, like bad water, keys 100 requires you to have a support crew. And that's really important because there's your there's your opportunity to cool off and and be sure you're on top of your hydration again in electrolytes, but also using ice to keep yourself cooled down. And that's a really important part of of a successful Keys 100 race is keeping your body cool.
SPEAKER_01Well, that sounds like a really exciting event and sounds extremely challenging, but you know, looking at your own history of racing, which races stand out to you the most is being the most enjoyable.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Well, it's a hard question. I I the probably the most enjoyable race for me is the one that I just did and did 10 years ago, the Mount Gowlagong Ultra. Not only because of the experience of being in China and our incredible reception, but I have a personal connection there because my my father and my uncle both during World War II were in the Army Air Corps supporting American and Chinese troops on the ground in that theater, the China Burma India Theater. They were based in India and they flew over the hump, which is the Himalayas, into Burma, which is now Myanmar, and that area of China, providing air support, bombing support, logistical support for the troops on the ground. So, because of that, I you know, I said to my Myself 10 years ago, if I looked up in the air and it was 75 years earlier, my father would be up there. I mean, it was a very, very emotional thing for me and remains so. So, on a very personal level, that race has been my my favorite race, the one that's been most meaningful. One that I never expected to go back to, but was invited to come back this year and was thrilled that that happened. Beyond that, just the challenge of Badwater and being able to finish it is a is a always a fun race for me. But I've enjoyed so many of them. I've raced in in uh in Brazil and in other places around the world that have been really great. Running Havelina Hundred, running Rocky Raccoon, some of the well-known Ultras in the country are it's always fun to go to these places and see people you you you know, meet meet new friends. And there's there's probably only one race I've ever done as an Ultra that I didn't enjoy. And that was a race that was on a very dusty road out west in Utah. A dirt road, but extremely dusty, open to these, these these people who are driving trucks, pulling trailers with off-road vehicles, and not slowing down for us at all, and blowing up these dust clouds, and we were you know sucking in that dust for 100 miles. That that was not any fun. Other than that, every other alt drive ever done has really been enjoyable and a unique experience.
SPEAKER_01I can't even imagine how you contend with having dust in your face for that amount of time. Like I'm thinking goggles, thinking masks, but to keep it out of your mouth. That's horrible.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that yeah, it was pretty gross. But you know, once once you're in it, you kind of just say, Oh, well, the hell I'll finish it, but you're a try. So but it was, yeah, that was not a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_01No, you've had such a career marked with longevity, right, in terms of your athleticism and staying healthy. And you've mentioned that you've had an amazing support team. You have your coaches. Have you stayed mostly injury free, or have you had any any major ones?
SPEAKER_02Interestingly enough, when I my very first ultra, which was marathon disab, as I explained, I wound up fracturing my femur out there. And there wasn't a specific trauma. Never quite know, we'll never really know how the how the break happened, but my my best guess is I probably had a stress fracture from overtraining and didn't know it. Went out there, and of course, at MDS, you're carrying all your own food and gear and everything you need, except for water, for the entire week. It's a stage race. And for those who don't know what a stage race is, basically it's it's a hundred and roughly 160 miles broken into seven days. Each day is considered called a stage. So on the first day you you run from point A to point B, and what the race provides is a tent for eight or ten people for everybody in this race. And there are a thousand people in the race, so it's a big tent city, right? So they provide you water and a tent. You spend the night, you get up the next day, and you run from point B to point C. And and it repeats itself. And every day is a different distance, and there's one two-day period where it's a 50-mile distance, and you have two days to finish it. So you can run straight through, and then you have a lot of time to recover, or run part way. They'll have a tent set up along the way as like an aid station where they provide water. You can sleep there, get up the next, you know, later and finish it up. Point is that the longer I was in that race, the more difficulty I had running it became, went from running to walking to kind of hobbling. And after that 50-mile day, there was only a marathon day and a half marathon day left. But at that point, I really couldn't move. So I went to the medical tent and they said, Yeah, we've been kind of keeping an eye on you. We think you might have a fracture, and they had a portable x-ray machine that confirmed it. And my race, unfortunately, was over. So that's the only time that's ever that I've ever had an injury like that out there, unfortunately. And yeah, that was that was a frustrating one. But yeah, it happened. I took, uh, came home and had to have surgery and a plate and a pin and soled in my hip, so putting everything back together again. So yeah, you know, stuff can happen.
SPEAKER_01The stress fracture was kind of proximal, so closer to the the joint rather than the it was in the femoral, female femoral neck.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. It was a fracture, so they had to go in and you know pin it together. And it was quite a long recovery, actually, but which I constantly complained about to the orthopedist, who reminded me that he was also at the time I was commuting up to Northern Virginia for work, and that's where I had the surgery done. And he reminded me that he was also the orthopedist for the Washington Redskin football team. And he said, you know, these guys recover a little faster than you do. How old are you? It's going to take you a while. So you know, I was I was 60 at the time and I was complaining I wasn't recovering fast enough. But anyway, I did recover, everything worked, and I, you know, started uh started back at it again and been running ever since, fortunately.
SPEAKER_01That's great. So what what do you credit your ability to stay healthy and avoid injury? Because obviously you're putting your body through a lot.
SPEAKER_02Well, a lot of it, again, I credit back to Lisa who doesn't over-train me. And I'm careful not to over-train to be do things that are specific. So I don't do much speed work anymore. I don't do real heavy lifting. And I choose races that are that make sense for me most of the time. So, you know, where I'm living now, it would make really no sense for me to try to get into hard rock, for example, right? Which is all up and down, totally at altitude. There's no way to train for it. And I'm too damn old. So I mean, it just, you know, I so choosing races carefully makes is an important part of that. You know, I took a big tumble, I think I mentioned at MDS uh not MDS, excuse me, at Mount Golagon last week, but I kind of learned how to fall. And and so I took that fall as like a little head over hills tumble that could have been uh a problem, but I I was fine, no, no issues at all. Part of it again is learning how to tuck and roll. And I don't bomb down the bomb the downhills like I used to either. You know, ten years ago I I would run fast downhills. I don't I just I don't have the confidence, don't have the foot speed, and don't have the eyesight that it takes. So I slow down, and that's a big part of staying safe and not coming home injured. Because if something like a hip fracture happened again, that'd be all over. My career would be done. So I'm you know, I try to keep that in the back of my head.
SPEAKER_01Do you take any specific supplements, calcium, vitamin D? Do you have a whole long list of things, or do you try to get most of what you need from the food?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, mostly from the food, although I'm going to be starting to take, I am going to start taking calcium. I take B12, I take a couple of vitamins, but not a whole lot. Excuse me, but I'm going to start taking calcium and maybe some iron. And my bone density isn't what it should be, and that's going to help, I think. So, but mostly it's from my from my diet. I try to minimize any drugs that I need to take or over-the-counter stock.
SPEAKER_01Have you ever had any issues with anemia? You mentioned iron.
SPEAKER_02Um I have my iron is on the cusp, so it's something I really do need to pay a little more attention to, especially with my diet. I have some other issues. I've got some cardiac issues, some lung issues. I mean, I'm not like I'm you know the healthiest person in the world, pretty healthy for what I do in my age, but you know, the things I'm paying attention to and and I'm aware of, but and there's that cute cat again.
SPEAKER_01Sorry. No, not at all.
SPEAKER_02So uh yeah, but I don't I don't take a lot, I take a I take a statin, but I don't take a whole lot of drugs. And fortunately I've never had to, so not off knock on the wood, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well that's great. Yeah. Thank you, Bob, so much for giving us so much information. And I'm sure people are very intrigued now to check out the the Keys 100, but to allow people to learn more about you, learn a little bit more about your races, where can people find more information?
SPEAKER_02Well, they can go to the of course the races themselves, go to the go to the website. So if I may, but the other race that I produce now is the is Daytona 100, and that race is in December. It's also along the ocean, on the ocean road from Jacksonville Beach down to just south of Daytona Beach. It actually ends at the foot of a historic lighthouse, a little town called Ponce Inlet at the end of the barrier island. So Light Keys, it's along the ocean, beautiful route. It's another road type race, but the weather is not an weather's great, it's not an issue at all. Light Keys is mostly flat and fast. So it's a really good first race because you you don't have that heat factor. So if you're a roadrunner rather than a trail runner, you know, I recommend you check out Daytona100 Ultra.com or Keys100.com. Those are the best places to learn about those races. And there's a little, each one of them has a little blurb about my background, but you know, that's the least important part of it.
SPEAKER_01You are humble for the Daytona race. What time of year is that?
SPEAKER_02It's in December. Yeah, in the second Saturday in December. So Keys is third Saturday in May, and Daytona's second Saturday in December. So again, it's the weather's usually really good. Again, a pretty part of the pretty part of the country, and a point-to-point 100 or 50 or 50K with the relay option as well. So it's a very similar format, just a little bit different geography.
SPEAKER_01Great. Well, that is so exciting to check out for everybody who's listening. Definitely give these websites a look. And we're gonna let Bob get back to getting some sleep and recovering from heinous travel. Yeah, thank you so much for agreeing to this right after racing and traveling so much. So we really appreciate your time.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely happy, Hannah, to do that. I hope some tidbit will help one of your listeners out there a little bit. So thank you for the opportunity.
