Maximum Mileage Running Podcast

Chasing a 268-Mile Record: Inside Jon Shield’s Brutal Spine Race Prep

• Nick Hancock

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:00:57

Send us Fan Mail

In this episode, I sit down with ultra-endurance athlete Jon Shield, one of the most accomplished extreme racers in the world. From winning across the Beyond the Ultimate Global Race Series to tackling brutal multi-day events like the Spine Race, Jon has built a reputation for performing in the harshest conditions imaginable.

Now, he’s just weeks out from the 268-mile Montane Spine Race, often called Britain’s most brutal, chasing redemption and a sub-70-hour record.

We dive into:

  •  How Jon is balancing injury, recovery, and peak performance 
  •  Why resilience matters more than fitness in ultra-endurance 
  •  The reality behind social media, sponsorships, and coaching 
  •  Lessons from racing in deserts, jungles, mountains, and the Arctic 
  •  What it actually takes to keep going when everything starts to break 

This is a raw, honest conversation about pressure, setbacks, and pushing beyond perceived limits.

Follow Jon Shield:

You can also view this discussion on my YouTube channel, Coach Hannah Witt, in my series, The Performance Collective. Coach Hannah Witt - YouTube

Right, that's us done. If that was useful… share it. Stick it in your club WhatsApp, send it to that mate who's always getting injured three weeks before race day. You know the one ;)

If you want to go deeper on any of this, Nick puts out videos every week on YouTube, and the entire team of coaches are sharing helpful tips on their instagram channels... links below. And if you're thinking you actually need a proper plan and someone in your corner… we've got Guided Coaching from 97 quid a month, right up to full one-to-one coaching with the coach of your choice. Either way, maximummileagecoaching.com is where you want to be.

See you on the next one.

To work with us - https://join.maximummileagecoaching.com/home-page-9835

Nick's YT - youtube.com/channel/UCgdIPeN3bF7I7-tcspyFbVg/

Faye's IG - https://www.instagram.com/fayejohnsoncoaching/

Rachael's IG - https://www.instagram.com/rachforthelongrun/

Hannah's IG - https://www.instagram.com/coach_hannah_witt/

Matt's IG - https://www.instagram.com/ultracoachmatt/

SPEAKER_01

Hey, welcome to the Maximum Mileage Podcast. I'm Coach Hannah Witt, and this is where we talk about building strong, resilient runners without the constant cycle of injury, burnout, or guesswork. Each episode, I sit down with runners, coaches, and experts to break down training, recovery, fueling, and mindset so you can train with more confidence and actually see progress that lasts. And if you prefer to watch these conversations, you can find the full video versions on my YouTube channel, Coach Hannah Witt, under the Performance Collective series. Let's dive in. John Shield is one of the world's most accomplished ultra endurance athletes, racing and winning in some of the most extreme environments on the planet. From jungles and deserts to ice and high mountains, he's not just competed at the highest level, he's made history as the first athlete to win every race in the beyond the ultimate global race series. And his results don't stop there. With podium finishes at brutal multi-day events like the Cape Wrath Ultra, top finishes at races like the Dragon's Back, and victories across multiple spine events, John has built a reputation for performing where most people break. In this episode, we catch him just weeks out from taking on the 268-mile montane spine race, chasing redemption, and a sub-70-hour record after a year that's tested every part of him. We go deep into what it really takes to prepare for something like this, from managing injuries and rebuilding after setbacks to the mindset required to keep showing up in the harshest conditions on earth. This is a conversation about resilience, pressure, and what it actually means to push beyond your limits. Today we're very fortunate to have John Shield on the show and just a little bit more about him. He is an ultra-endurance athlete who races in some of the harshest environments on earth, from deserts and mountains to jungles and the Arctic. After a career-ending parachute accident in the parachute regiment, he was forced to rebuild from scratch and chose to test the limits of human endurance. Now competing in extreme races around the world, John has turned adversity into a powerful edge. Today he shares hard-earned lessons on resilience, discipline, and performing under pressure, helping leaders and teams push beyond limits and thrive in the toughest conditions. Thank you so much, John, for being on the show today. How are you?

SPEAKER_00

Cheers, Hannah. Thanks very much for having me. Yeah, I'm great. I'm uh just in the process of trying to build up for a race myself now, which is just about eight weeks off. So starting to put a little bit more heavy training in around the coaching, the headwear brand that I've started. And yeah, it's it's been an interesting time. I've just had a couple of people sort of finish Marathon Disabler and the Arizona Monster 300. So yeah, it's been it's been a busy time with the coaching side of things, but now I'm just uh I've been getting over some niggles and some injuries that I've been carrying for too long because of just racing and non-stop schedule. So I've been trying to just address those, doing the rehab and yeah, getting ready to to go again in sort of eight weeks' time now.

SPEAKER_01

What race is in eight weeks, eight weeks' time for you?

SPEAKER_00

It's the Montane Spine Race. So it's the I'm doing the the longest version of it, which is 268 miles along what we've got. Uh it's like a national trail, the Pennine Way. They do a summer version and a winter version, and they do different distances. So they do the southern section, which is they do a short version, they call the sprint, which is about 47 miles, they do a 108 mile version, and that's on the southern part of the the route. Then they do Challenger North, which is the north part of 10. I'm gonna say this wrong, probably 160 miles, and then they do the north sprint now, which was the newest race, which is about 43 miles on the final bit of the route, and then they do the whole version, which is the 268 mile version, and it's it's non-stop, it's you you can go and basically just try and do it as quickly as you can. You've got to you're not allowed outside assistance other than the checkpoints, and there's only a few checkpoints throughout the whole route. So for long periods of time, you can be on your own not seeing anyone, it's very exposed. So the weather can be really, really poor, especially in in winter, but even in summer, our summers are notoriously unpredictable. I've had thunderstorms, blazing hot all in the same same day. So yeah, it's uh it's it's it's known as they call it Britain's most brutal. So uh yeah, it's a good race.

SPEAKER_01

That's incredible. Good for you for tackling that. And have you done it before?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I've done I've done all the race distances now. So I did the winter sprint north just in January, just gone. I came joint first in that with another runner called Damien Hall, who's got quite a good reputation, good good background on the ultra-running circuit, particularly the the longer stuff. I did the full summer version that I'm going back to do this time last year, but I did it a little bit too soon after another big race called Cape RAF, which was 400 kilometres, but it was a stage race over eight stages. I I did quite well in that. I came second, and then I had to, it was about say three weeks, four weeks before the start of the summer spine race, and it was going very well. And it then my body just broke down, so my my feet weren't fully recovered, and my knees then went so uh it was a very agonizing, long, painful journey, I think. And I ended up finishing about 17 from having about a 10-mile lead at one point, so uh yeah, it was uh it was a good experience, actually. Like it it you know, and you should you find out a lot about yourself when you you go through the harder, tougher times, and it was nice to see the race from another perspective as well when you have people passing you and you're you're joining them, and you know, you share a little bit more time with people along the way, then and you get an appreciation of how long sometimes people can be out there. So I think I was out there for something like 110 hours in that race, and yeah, this time I'm I'm aiming for the record, which is sub-70. So we're we're actually doing a full documentary on it, me and a couple of my sponsors. So it's gonna be interesting documenting it, talking about that beforehand, then the footage during this year's race, and then seeing how it how it goes, whether it pans out well or you know, you just don't know in these races. So, yeah, it's uh it's it's me having a shot at redemption, I think, in my my my own terms.

SPEAKER_01

Right. That's so brave of you to to document the process and everything. And I always when I see documentaries of elite athletes building up to races, I think what pressure that must feel like. And I can't imagine how hard that can be to carry that kind of pressure around all the time. Do you feel like the pressure that you experience is more external from sponsors, from your fans, or do you think it's more internal, or is it a mix of both?

SPEAKER_00

Definitely internal. I'm my own sort of I probably put my pressure on myself more than anyone else could. I don't, I don't really see. I think I used to see it probably a bit more like pressure to perform. Whereas now I don't, I look at it as an opportunity, I see it as exciting. The race doesn't daunt me anymore because I think I've had my probably my worst days possible on that race. So if I can hook it up and have a good day, then it'll be great. But I've always found that documenting the the different things, so yeah, it's all good. And I found a lot of people, particularly on social media, will always talk about their successes, but then they they you know they they put it under the mat, any bad experiences. They they don't talk about when things have gone wrong or what's gone wrong and why. You'll just see this perfect picture on social media of the wins, or you know, what went well, and they say, don't they, that that social media just shows the picture everyone wants to see. So you will always see people laughing, smiling, you know, things that go well. They don't see the other side of it, and often it's quite fake. So for me, coming into the running, I've had lots of bad days, I've had lots of good days. So, you know, I've been fortunate with a lot of races, but I've had some terrible ones. I've been out to Namibia in the past, and I got food poisoning literally the start of uh a race. I did one stage, tried to do the second stage and collapsed. I've been out with an injury to China and you know, pulled the plugger sort of just before probably 60 odd miles in. And so, you know, there's been there's been those those things that have happened. I've torn a calf on one of the spine race distances before just by falling through the snow into a bit of a creek, and you know, it was so those things happen. You can't do anything about them. It in ultra running, it's part of the game. You have these, you're gonna have these experiences, especially you might get away with it with 50k, even up to 100k, but there's no hiding when you go 100 milers, 200 miles, 300 milers, and you might feel really fit, you might have had the best training block, you know, you can have the best possible buildup, but then it's one wrong step, one pull muscle, and it magnifies it the more the distance goes on, and the more you slow down, and if you need to take pain relief, if their pain relief makes you more drowsy, then you need to sleep more. There's there's so many different aspects to it, isn't there? That you just um it it's inevitable. So you've got to you've got to be able to suck it up and take the rough with a smooth, I think.

SPEAKER_01

Definitely. I appreciate your transparency with your experiences and being very blunt that it's not always rosy. So you know, I was thinking about what you said about social media and how we oftentimes see people portraying their training as just going great, everything's wonderful, we always see the high times. But part of me wonders if that's because that's what the athlete prefers to show, or if there's some kind of contractual agreement with sponsors where they don't want you to show injured footage or you know with sponsorships. If you are injured, does that jeopardize your funding, things like that? So it's I feel like it's multifaceted in terms of you know what we see. It's you know, it's not authentic because obviously they have a contract with they have to you know show this kind of footage and it's tough, but I do appreciate that you do make an effort to be very authentic. That's that's great.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, to be fair, I I I think it would be disappointing if you if you're made to feel like that, or that's been dictated to by by a sponsor, because personally I wouldn't want to be sponsored by someone that was putting that onto the person to only display that because I think I say everyday people want to see, you know, they want to know about the athletes, they want to know how they train, they want to know what kit they're wearing, but they want to be a part of the experiences and actually showing them that you know they have bad days too. It's it's part of the course. And I think I'm very lucky with like the the brands that I represent. I never have any pressure about what to post or when to post or you know what kit to post or what to write. I I'm you know, and I guess it's it's probably because I've I've always come across that way, but I don't think any of the other athletes have any pressure put on them because it's not your true self, then it's it I think it comes across as fake. And yeah, I've been asked to promote stuff in the past by by different brands and and companies. And to be honest, it it it's really quite an easy decision most of the time because I have to buy into what I'm using anyway. So if I'm not gonna use a product, I'm not gonna go and promote a product because why would I? It it's not if it's nutrition that I like and nutrition that I use, then I will say I'm using this. If someone asks, I will be seen using them on a race, but I don't tend to go here's this, you know. It it it's generally quite organic or natural. I'm not there having to push things all the time. Because a lot of these companies have seen that I've used products before I was even with them or bought their kit, and so it's been a long-term process. So a lot of my sponsors now I've I've been with a number of years or was using their products beforehand. So, you know, a lot of people have started using the products and so on, but then they know that that's just me being me. It's not me going, this is the the best thing since sliced bread, because you know, all of a sudden I'm using it, and and that's that. And I think, you know, it's I I don't like seeing stuff that's that's like that. There's there's too many products and things that don't actually work out there as well at the moment that aren't scientifically backed, or I think it's dangerous now with the ads that are out there. I see a lot with supplements at the moment like multivitamins and testosterone stuff. And it's you know, they're all saying that they can do this, they can do that, and then they're putting competitors' brands there and saying, oh, this product's better because of this, this, this, and this. But it's just paid ads, it's it's it's not genuine research, and I think that's a danger with the ads that maybe Facebook and Instagram put up. There's I don't think there's a proper regulation to it. So people can basically post a lot of things that aren't necessarily true, and if they give it a bit of hype and you know, marketing, then people buy into it, don't they? Because they start seeing it everywhere, and you search more and then you get more things popping up. And I think there's been different times, hasn't there? There's been ketones that have I think there's a few brands of ketones I've come across, and then you start seeing, and then you just can't get away from it because you see them all over the place, and it's the same now with testosterone stuff. It might be because I'm in my 40s now that I'm seeing all this razor testosterone and and stuff like that. And you know, it's it's yeah, it is just frightening how you can fall into the trap with social media and how you know it targets people, specific age, demographic, and you know, the sport you're doing, and you see all these things, and yeah, there's probably not a great deal of regulation, it's just someone paying for ads, and if you've got plenty of money to invest in ads, you can get a good return, and then you're above maybe some good brands that are scientifically backed, you know, doing all the right things, but it's the way of the world, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I think about you know, for me personally, promoting myself as a coach, I don't have a whole lot of spend to put behind ads, but you know, I believe in my product, and it's kind of like other people who perhaps they don't have certifications, they don't have an education in general, you know, for endurance specific type training. They if they have the money, then their ads are gonna go above people who are more qualified. And I guess it's not I guess I know for people who are looking to have a coach, you definitely need to do your research. Do you find that for your coaching business in general, for your athletes, have you had to do a whole lot of marketing? Obviously, you're your best marketing tool, right? You've had success, you're out in the trenches doing the actual racing. So, you know, I feel like you'll you probably have gotten your clients very organically, and you haven't had to do a whole lot of marketing to promote your coaching business.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and and that's kind of one of the points that I do like to race and be visible, is because that is my best advert, and it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm a great coach, but you know, it and and this is the problem, isn't it? It's like influencers out there that have a good social media following, they all of a sudden do a you know, like a coaching qualification that they can do online, they've got no prior experience, you know, and they've they've probably not done a lot of races or done things that then people are coming to them to coach about, and it's it's because of people following them and they put stuff out there which might or might not be correct, different things, but people go to them. And like you say, other people that have very good sound knowledge, but necessarily the best at social media or actively posting. And I really struggle because I post, but usually it's posting about races, I'm not there uploading stuff all the time because I'm just not that way inclined. If I go out for a training run, I'm not really bothered so much about getting a drone up and photographing it, all that side of things. It I I just like to go out and run and train when I get a minute. I don't want to be stopping and doing all these things, and there's you know, there is some great people out there on YouTube and stuff, and a couple of Americans that I've followed in the past, and I've really enjoyed their videos over the years, but the amount of time and effort that it takes to do that as well, it's it's more about being a producer of content producer rather than being a coach and stuff. But yeah, for me, I've I've not had to market because I've been out there doing it, and and obviously I can do something right myself to do well in these different races all over. And I am I'm self-coached, so I haven't gone anywhere. But it's it's not the fact that I don't like the idea of a coach, it's the fact that my life is so hectic and trying to stick to a plan just wouldn't work for me. Um, so I'd be a coaching nightmare, so I wouldn't put that on to anyone else. But yeah, I can appreciate that there's a lot of good coaches out there that probably don't have the clients they should because of I say the the way things are set up now and and so on. And I think good coaches and people like ourselves having a conversation realize that that's the case. And like you say, I there's a lot of coaches out there. How many coaches are good coaches? There's you know, I'm gonna say probably less than half that are probably uh a good standard coach with decent background that have done perhaps some endurance sports, not necessarily all these fancy different races, but have that good solid foundation where they can appreciate it themselves. They can then apply knowledge to someone's training programs, to their goals and and and so on. And yeah, it's uh it's very difficult for people looking for a coach to find the right coach, I think, because people are very good at selling themselves, even if they're not great coach, great background with it. And uh I mean, I find this now because my headwear brand Paincave, I've been trying to get that off the ground for a long time, and so it's investment in product and trying to market it, but I don't have the marketing budget, and it's a minefield because I search marketing, and then all of a sudden I've got all these Instagram ads about marketing coming up, and then yeah, I had someone trying to nearly 10,000 pounds off me the other week for a you know, a simple light, I'm thinking maybe. Maybe a few hundred pounds max. And so I haven't done it. I haven't gone through with anything at the moment. I'm just holding back and I'm growing the website myself, writing blogs, typing in stuff to make sure it is organically growing and hits stuff on the website and then on Google, but it takes about six months to start taking effect. But I'm trying to grow it in the correct way that then when I do go and start paying for some marketing or clicks, as they say, then it will help. But yeah, it's uh it's difficult. It's it's very difficult.

SPEAKER_01

It sounds like you're going about it the right way. And I I admire your desire to continue to race and put yourself out there. And it's almost like you do have a bit of a pressure to get more coaching clients. You have to continue racing because you're your best marketing tool. And I'll be very honest, you know, I haven't raced in a long time because I've just been half I've had injury, I've had some burnout, and it's kind of felt like imposter syndrome when I, you know, try to coach athletes. And but you know, I raced collegiately for four and a half years, and you know, I raced post-collegiately as well. And you know, I look at my training labs, I don't necessarily count mileage generally, but you know, I'm out there doing 100 plus mile weeks because I love running and I love educating other people and learning about it. And I do want to start racing, but it's almost like it's kind of fear because now there are all these eyes on my back to see how I'm gonna do. But you know, kudos to you for continuing to put yourself out there, be vulnerable, and just even when you have a bad day to gut out these really tough races. And you know, from what you said, I think your headwear brand will definitely take off organically because if you're wearing it, you're out there doing these races, then people are gonna see that and they're gonna be like, Pain Cave, that's cool, and you know, John Shield is cool. I want to be like him. So I think I think it's all gonna work in your favor, you know, and I feel like there's more longevity and that kind of organic marketing that you're doing, just being out there than all this like SEO stuff online and trying to be ahead of the game with AI and everything else. And you know, it's it's becoming increasingly difficult to just be heard in this space, right?

SPEAKER_00

So you need an IT degree now, don't you? You need a marketing, you need a computer degree, and it's like now I'm getting someone to help because I've got two websites, the coaching one, which is on Squarespace, and then the guy who does my other website, my headware one, said, Oh, yeah, WordPress is the best thing to be on for the platform. So he set it up like that. That but when I try and alter that, if it's anything beyond something quite simple, it it's a nightmare. Whereas Squarespace I can use without a problem, but it's very time consuming when you try and learn stuff or you're trying to do things like the SEO stuff, and you're just like, wow, this is there's so many different things now to distract you instead of coaching or just focusing on reading up a little bit more about coaching and you know the latest principles and things like that, which if I had the time, I would love to be doing more of that, and but I don't, I don't have more time, so often like my coaching now, I'm applying it more to people what I've done previously that's worked for myself. Yeah, I know underpinning sides of things, but everyone's different at the end of the day, so you can't coach everyone the way I am, and I've I've seen that with a lot of people they coach people the way that they've coached themselves or been coached instead of actually this person's this age, they're male, this person's female, and they're this age, and you've got to take into a whole host of different things, which is not a one-size-fits-all thing. And I think in the US, you mentioned you've got a strong collegiate background. There's not really that in the UK, there's not really that kind of setup which you have in the US, which is amazing, all the track stuff and things it does go on here, but it's just not pushed the same way. And I sort of hated running early on. I've only fallen into running really over the last seven years, but I was a personal trainer, strength and conditioning coach, but I played things like rugby, soccer, all that type of thing when I was younger, and did a sports science degree, then did a postgrad in strength and conditioning, then got sort of a little bit disillusioned, wanted to go and scratch the itch to go into the military and the infantry, the elite fighting force was a parachute regiment. So I wanted to go and experience that before I got too old. And then, yeah, bad parachute jump, landed badly, got medically discharged and retrained then as a medic. So I've always had that interest in the human body and how it works, how to apply it. But I myself now is I would love more time to just sit and look at the latest training, you know, and just embed myself more in it. But you actually just have to concentrate on so much nowadays that's not about the the job and more about how you promote yourself and how you sell yourself. And then they say, if you want to race, you've got to put the training in around that. And you know, 100 mile weeks, obviously, some people can get away with it, other people can't. Some people are built that can withstand that, other people need less miles, more gym, or other people require more of a depending on what your race is, or flatter stuff, and then your mileage can be completely different, can't it? I mean, at the moment, I'm spending often just because it's I've kept racing and just didn't let myself recover. So I've been on the stairmaster a lot, sort of most days doing probably anything between an hour and an hour and a half on the stairmaster, sometimes with ankle weights, sometimes with a you know, weighted vest occasionally, and then getting on the bike for a second session as well, just to keep that fitness, doing a lot of gym work as well, on on top of that, a lot of weights, but very little running at the moment. And for me, you know, I've probably run less over this last sort of few months, apart from my last race was two months ago now in Costa Rica, and since then I've not really done much. And before that, a month earlier was when I did the the spine. So yeah, now it's just that I've I've tried a couple of long runs, had some good things, but then just got a niggle again, so it's kind of reset and going back to just some training where I can train without being negative, so I still feel fit. It's just not running specific fitness at the moment.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I have not done a hundred mile weeks consistently. I've probably stacked maybe a month and some weeks before, you know, with that kind of volume because I was in an injury cycle over the winter. Here it's really tough. And if you want to train, if you want to run, you're most likely going to be on a treadmill. And treadmill for me, while it's a great tool, it's almost like if I'm on it too often, I'm gonna get injured. And it's really hard for me to build fitness on a treadmill. And but I know what it's like to do hour and a half sessions on an elliptical and then you know, eating something, maybe grabbing a quick nap and then being on the bike for another hour and a half, having three hours of cross-training because trying to have equivalencies to the running effort is so hard because it's not the same and you have to do more. But yeah, I I understand that struggle and cross-training is it's intense, and you know, that's the thing. You wear so many hats, literally, because you're your headwear brand. Haha, bad joke, anyway. But you're trying to be a coach, you're you're not trying, you're succeeding. You are being an athlete yourself, you're trying to market your product with your headwear brand, and you're trying to educate yourself, and it's just at the time of the day, it's so time consuming. But you know, how how do you feel that you've just been able to stay consistent with so much going on?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's it's just the desire, you know. I I've I'm seeing like I don't have what I would say is the the the longest time left in my career at the competitive level. So, you know, all being well, no injuries, and so is ultra running. You can you can obviously be competitive a lot later in your career, especially as you sort of lengthen out the the distance. But I mean the guy who's just come third at Marathon Disable, but even the two guys who finished ahead of him, the Moriarty brothers, they're you know, they're not young now. And is it Ludwig Pomfret who came third? He's 50, he's won hard rock twice and got the record for hard rock, and he's just come third there, and he nearly got second off the two brothers who always win or always first and second. So, you know, he's a great example of someone that's now 50, that's right at the sharp end winning hard rock, which is obviously a massive race twice back to back, and then doing that there at MDS and Damien Hall, who I finished alongside again, he's 50. And over the long, long stuff again, he's a phenomenal athlete. And I think there's there's quite a few now that are out there doing that, so it's really positive in that point of view that you know I've still got plenty of time when I look at those guys. So that gives me inspiration off those guys and that dedication to actually go, well, you know what? I'm quite young in this sport, I've still got a relatively young training age because I haven't run throughout my life. I've always been sporty, but I've been ultra running now for seven years, learning since the last seven years. So I feel like my performances can still improve. So I want to extract that. So that gives me that motivation. And there's more races out there. I want to come to the States, I want to race there, I want to see how well I can do. And you know, I was following the Arizona Monster 300 the other day because, as well as having a client there, one of my friends was racing, and he's a very good runner, but he he DNF'd quite early on because of the heat, and usually he's so well prepared, and you know, he's had great race results all over the world, and uh, so that was a shame. But uh again, that's just an example, isn't it? That you know, these things can go wrong, even if you're one of the best prepared, dedicated athletes, sometimes it's just not your day. But yeah, it's it's it's motivating when I see other people doing well as well, and it inspires me. So yeah, I think it's it's always a balance, and maybe I couldn't like I've got dogs and stuff, so I can't always leave things and go out and have a big day in the mountains like I'd want. So I have to make the most of it, or when I can, I'll train like a monster, and then when I have to dial it back, I'll be in the gym and you know, going for shorter runs or whatever, just keeping ticking over. And I think being consistent is what I tell all my clients is that consistency is key. You're not going to drop fitness if you're always training in some way, shape, or form. If you're getting your cardio in, you're working your different energy systems, you don't always have to be out doing eight-hour long runs or whatever, six hours in the mountains, you don't need to be doing that. You you can maintain off a short long run. You know, you can be a two-hour long run on a weekend, and if it's not in the mountains, yeah, it's not gonna be as specific. But if you're doing some stairmaster or uh an incline ascent mill or something like that, your fitness isn't going to drop away completely. Yeah, it won't be specific to maybe a race you're wanting to do, so you might lose a bit of specificity. But on the other hand, it's not that hard to get it back. Then, you know, you can get it back relatively easily if you're consistent with your training, your strength training, and that side of things. You know, you can do your pliometrics and bits and bobs like that, with you know, trying to avoid injury when you're doing them, as long as you're balancing it, then you can sort of you know offset the the lack of running down mountains, loading your quads and getting them beat up in that way. You know, you're kind of making sure that when you go back to the mountains and do the steep climbs and then the steep descents that you're still in shape to tolerate because of the strength work that you're doing, because of the stairs and the climbing and incline treadmill or whatever that you're doing, you're still giving yourself the basics, the basic tools that you need to then go and bring back that fitness from being out there that you know it's specific. You can't you can't uh you can't be completely fit without training specifically to things, can you? So, you know, if you're not at altitude, then yeah, you can get an attent, you can get a mask on and artificially train for altitude, but it's not the same as living at altitude, is it? Because it's only a relative amount of time compared to when you're 24 hours a day at altitude, it hits differently.

SPEAKER_01

For sure. Yeah, I think about athletes who maybe they can't run as much and they have to do more cross-training, and perhaps they're dealing with some kind of injury and they're not doing much outdoor running. Or, like for me, I you know, winter time on the treadmill a lot. And I will say that going back to outdoor running after being on a treadmill for months on end is it was it was it was tough, especially because I jumped right in the deep end. You know, I live on a mountain and there are lots of gravel roads, and I've always opted to to run on dirt and gravel instead of asphalt and possible just because I've had stress fractures before and I just enjoy it more. But one key thing for like athletes who perhaps can't run on specific surface to whatever race they have coming up is ankle stability and foot strength. And you know, I would say if you're on uneven terrain, you've got to look after your feet and you've got to make sure your ankles are as strong as possible, balance with you know, just perch reception, everything. You mentioned a recent injury, well, just a race that you did, your knees and your feet were pretty beat up. In what way were they beat up?

SPEAKER_00

Blisters, I'd struggle with blisters for so long. So the knees were uh a problem because of the feet and the blisters, and what it was is I'd always struggled with blisters from starting out running, and I found it very difficult to get shoes that suited me, and I ended up with a a brand, a sponsor, and it took me a while to realize that those shoes just didn't work for me. I tried different shoes, different things, but it was I'd had a few DNFs in races, or it ruined races. So it's really frustrating because I was trying different socks, I was taping feet, I was doing all sorts. And you know, obviously, you get a sponsor, a footwear sponsor, it's it's it's a big thing. It's you know, uh a good, you know, it's it's it saves you spending money on shoes, doesn't it? So from that point of view, it was great because they were a good reputable brand. They were very good with me, but they just didn't suit or work for my feet. So I I left the brand of my own accord because I actually realized that again it and just it wasn't necessarily my feet. And don't get me wrong, I think initially your feet have to toughen up to doing the distances, so it wasn't it definitely wasn't all the shoes, and I think it was just my feet did not suit the shoes, the brand, as well as them needing to toughen up over time. I so I I literally had tried all sorts of different things from using you know, like lubricants, different lubricants on the feet, taping the feet, different socks, toe socks, it all sorts, all sorts of different, you know, materials, and sizing up, sizing down everything. And what I found is I've I actually worked my my feet more, my muscles in my feet more, stretched out the fascia a bit more, strengthened them. Ankles had always been good because since the injury I broke my I've broken my left ankle uh leg three times, and yeah, yeah, rugby twice, and then one was a double ankle, well, double leg break and an ankle dislocation in one go, then a separate ankle break, and then a separate one on the parachute jump. So three, technically four, regardless. But my ankles, I've never rolled my ankle, never, never had a sprained ankle, and so I do a lot on them, but what I had neglected was my feet. My feet weren't great, I think, because I'm I'm naturally quite flat-footed, and what I was finding is I'd get Achilles niggles, I'd get a bit of uh like plantar fasciitis, nothing that ever stopped me. It was always blisters, but what I worked out was that that was causing the blisters, really. And I think I tried softening my feet up like books had recommended, that did not work. So, you know, some quite reputable books that were on about keeping your feet supple and soft of the skin did that and it made them worse. So actually, I don't do anything with my feet now, I don't lubricate them. All I do with my feet now is I wear a certain sock, and I found some trainers that I like, a brand that I like that works, and I don't tape them, I don't do anything. Like literally, I've just done the muscles, do the work on the feet, make sure they're flexible as well. And then I wear a certain sock and I wear a certain shoe brand, and that seems to like keep keep all the blisters away. I haven't really had any major blisters in a long time now. And if I did get anything, I'd probably just tape it slightly or use a little bit of lubricant. But with the certain socks that I use, you're not supposed to use any like lubricant because it actually stops the sock doing their job, which a lot of people don't realize is that these sock materials and some of them and the way they work is actually is going to stop them doing their job if you cake yourself with a load of foot stuff, whatever people use, whether it's Vaseline, whether they use I don't know, all the different brands that are out there now. And obviously, I mean anti-chafing stuff's great because I'll use that sort of between my legs or whatever for races and and stuff, but I don't use them on my feet because I've just found that actually my feet need to breathe. So if I clog it with a load of stuff, yeah, it lubricates them, but actually over a long period of time they you know become sweater, they're just moist, that they they soften up too much and then they start to maturate. And so yeah, it's it, but I think everyone's different. The footwear, foot care, and everything, because everyone's feet so different, it's not a one-size fits all thing, is it? So what I do for myself might not work for someone else. Someone else swears by taping, someone else swears by lubricating their feet, someone else swears by you know one shoe, someone else swears by another shoe and or a sock. So yeah, it's uh it's really sort of personal.

SPEAKER_01

For sure. You know, I've had blisters before and they are so hard. Once you start to get them, it's so hard to kind of break the blister cycle. And it's not an injury that you would immediately think, oh, this is race ending, this is gonna stop my training. But no, if your feet are in bad shape, like that will stop you dead in your tracks. And I think it's really interesting how you mentioned in trying to figure out the cause of the blisters and make them go away that you worked on foot strength. And I'm trying to think, perhaps maybe if your feet weren't intrinsically strong, maybe they were kind of rigid, I guess, in your shoe, and that was kind of causing excessive run uh rubbing. But the fact that strengthening your feet actually helped prevent future blisters, that's a really interesting theory that. I hadn't even considered, but you know, with ultra distance running, definitely looking after your feet is is key. And I can I can definitely see how you know your approach to trying so many different things and you know, yeah, that's it's a lot to deal with. And I'm glad that you found something that worked for you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, insoles, everything was always the balls for my feet as well that would get the blisters. So yeah, you can try everything, guys. It's a process of elimination, what it is. And I think now I do a lot where I you know when you sit on your back on your knees, my quads are quite tight anyway. So you get a good stretch by sitting back on your your knees, don't you? Your quads get a good stretch, but then I sort of sit on my feet as well in that way. So you're it's kind of like excessive planter flexion, isn't it? Where you're sat on them and you're this is my foot, so it's going under like that and stretching out the top of your your foot, basically. And I found that massively helps. But then also when you sort of sit and put your toes up like that, that you're stretching the other way as well, that mobility, as well as doing your big toe stuff, making sure that your big toes pushing off correctly as it should do, you're not rolling your feet and really trying to concentrate on my positioning of the feet and how I'm planting. But also, again, that's where the shoe comes in. If you've got something that is quite highly stacked, that doesn't suit me. I like to feel the ground as opposed to these plush kind of typical ultra shoes, I guess, where you don't have as much feel. I tend to like a shoe that's more connected with the ground, I just feel more stable. So yeah, it's it's definitely an interesting thing, and just you've you've it's what you've got to do, isn't it? You've got a problem-solving races, and you know that these races are so long that you've got time to solve it. But if you don't solve it, you're gonna have a long time being miserable as well. From experience, having a long time being miserable, I'd prefer to have a long time not being miserable instead.

SPEAKER_01

For sure. You know, I'm thinking about you mentioned the knees starting to bother you. Was that secondary to the feet? I'm thinking in my mind, if you tend to get blisters on the ball of your foot, then I would myself to try and alleviate that probably start to heel strike a little bit more, which would then go up the kinetic chain and start to damage your knees more. Wondering if that's why that happens for you.

SPEAKER_00

So it it happens. So my feet started to be a problem on day two of Cape RAF in Scotland, which was like the 400k eight-stage race. So it was fast racing, like every day it was really fast, really hard. So I had to really battle and to keep hold of second place. It was a shame because I felt like I could have competed for the win. And we did sort of battle on a couple of days where I would beat the guy who won. But from day two, we were running together, and I had to stop to try and sort the blisters because I could feel them coming on. But the problem was I had a shoe that was a road to trail shoe, and it's really technical terrain there. They didn't the brand I was with didn't have their ultra shoe in my size, they hadn't had it all season, so that was a massive contributing factor that a road to trail shoe, as much as I loved that road to trail shoe, it just couldn't cope with the demands of that race. But chuffed with the outcome, the finish of that, I was like made up because I was in agony. It was worse though, taking my shoes off at the end of each day and then being in camp with no shoes on. It was excruciating. I I was in so much pain then. It was actually better when you squished your feet back in the shoe and just did them really tight. But then I had no knee problems during that race. I didn't feel my knees at all. The first time I got some awareness that my knees were not quite right, and I didn't, they weren't injured, I just noticed it squatting. There was a bit of like a tightness in the knees, but again, I didn't notice it when I was running after that, although I wasn't doing too much running before then going on to the summer spine race. I mean, I think there was about four weeks between them. So I probably had a week, a week or two off, and probably just cross-trained for a week and then probably did a week of running and then went back into to this race, which again was the 268-mile. And I think I was trying to remember where I first got the hint of the knee pain, but I know I don't know what mile it was, but I remember my feet weren't fully healed because the whole bottom of my feet had come off basically, so it was all soft still. So they hadn't toughened up again. So I knew they'd be a problem going into that race. But they were okay, they were holding up for a good period of time until I went over one of the big mountains, which is notoriously awkward, and there's lots of really awkward, like grassy, lumpy stuff where you can't get a proper foot down, and it was hammering it down, going over that, and then so they they shredded up then. But I started to feel my knees before that, and I just remember this shooting pain in my left knee to start with. I was like, whoa, what the hell's that? And then it would completely go, but then like another minute later, bang, another sharp place. So you couldn't try and second guess when it was coming, but it was bloody painful, so it was really awkward. So then I stopped at like one of these makeshift checkpoints they had for half an hour and grabbed a coffee and it was just sort of icing on the knee and just giving it a rest. Took some ibuprofen, naughty me for taking ibuprofen because you're not supposed to, but if you're well hydrated, it's okay. So I was doing that and some paracetamol and stuff just to try and take off, and then it seemed to be okay for a little while, and I kept moving, but then I I started to notice some swelling, and then the other knee, and yeah, it just became a real problem. And it I was tendinitis basically, patella tendonitis, which you know I've still to this day noticed it. I mean, it has improved drastically. I mean, it erased. I I went to Gobi to do Ultra Gobi, and I got I think about 12 hours in, and then there was a sharp descent, and I just knew straight away I couldn't continue because I was gonna damage myself for even longer. So I called it a day out there, but I'd been seeing the physios before that, and I said, I'm worried that I'm gonna get sort of 10, 12 hours in, hit a descent, and it'll be game over. And they were like, No, you'll be all right, you'll be alright, it'll be fine. And I was doing my exercise, and then it just happened, and it happened exactly as I thought it would. Um, but I didn't suffer on in that race. I I literally stopped it straight away to avoid making it any worse. And actually, once I stopped and I had some physio out there as well, some massage while I was out there while the race was still going on, because I was stuck around camp for a good few days after that, and when I came back, actually it was better than it was before I went, so it improved by making a good decision there, and then but but since then I I raced, I'd done a multi-day in Kenya, and it was okay because the longest stage was about six hours, so that was okay. It doesn't go beyond 10 hours, it's fine. And then again, January I've done the the spine sprint, that was eight hours, fine, no dramas at all there. And then Costa Rica again was was fine, no no issues with regards to the knees, but I think I've got some compensatory stuff because of it as well, like an IT band setting off, and just being generally out of kilter from from doing that. So that's what I've been addressing now. Although they feel better, they still feel sometimes a little bit strange, and that's all I can put it, and not pain, but strange. So I'm still doing my exercises, and I've got some good structured physio coming up in the build-up to doing this 268 miles again, just to make sure that it's fully resolved and have some like um like laser therapy on it or shockwave therapy, whatever they decide, by making sure I'm going about it in the right way, just to make sure that it's still improving and and it has been massively improved. But that's the probably the lingering doubt I have in my mind with regards to a race of that magnitude now is that will the injury, will those things come back again or will they be okay now? You know, because I wasn't aware of that before I started that race. Whereas I've been aware of them since, and although I've raced and had some good results, I've not done 268 miles since. So it's that that kind of guessing game, but keep doing the rehab, keep doing the strength work, and probably not running now is benefiting me as well. So yeah, hopefully, but we'll we'll soon see.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I I hate that for you, and especially if your IT band starts to flare up in response to that, that's really hard to resolve too. And yeah, besides physio, are you doing any specific type like strength work to try and get the knees better?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I've been doing a lot of uh Spanish squats, really like them. Been doing a lot of band work as well. So I mean, I'd always done the crab walks anyway. The the IT bands flared up basically. I I went running with a client in Morocco straight after I'd done the spine sprint. And the spine sprint, there was a lot of downhills in a lot of icy, snowy conditions, and the pace was quite quite hot when we were doing these descents, so it was a lot of loading, and then after that, I went to Morocco with my client, and that was all on road. They were doing a challenge to sort of retrace their his parents' route when they migrated from uh Tangier to Casablanca, so it was all road though, so I was running with him and I noticed it flare up then. So I cut my running down then before going to Costa Rica, which was the following week, and then I was aware of it very early on in Costa Rica and the jungle there. It's massive, steep climbs, but then very, very sharp descents. So it flared it up while I was out there. So I've been managing that since. And I've been doing crab walks, been doing sort of some medial bandwork as well, pulling against the knee, keeping sort of it in there, a lot of single leg stuff, the Spanish squats. So stretching it. I feel like I don't do much foam rolling, but I do feel like it works. Although other people say it doesn't work, you shouldn't do it. I I still kind of like it, and I like trigger pointing sort of my glutes as well, stretching the glutes out and the IT band stretch. Again, I have to really be extreme with that to get some sort of feel on that. So I do a bit of everything, but it's it's a difficult one. And I think that just came from being a bit out of kilter and just the the sheer sort of amount of racing that was in close proximity that you know you take your opportunities when a race comes, you get invited to go to it. It's like it's hard to say no. And it turned out they were they were two really strong results for me. So going from where on the tops it was about minus 11 in the the winter spine, to then going to Costa Rica, where it was mid-30s and 100% humidity within a very short period of time, that was was tough. So to podium coming third in Costa Rica after sort of a joint win in the spine was was good. So yeah, it just made me reset though from then just to try and make sure I was good for for this summer now. So I've uh cut all the races out this year, apart from what I've already done, just to make sure this one race is the key focus, just to give myself the time to try and fix myself properly and do the things that necessarily you might neglect a bit before. So doing mainly the the rehab stuff or prehab stuff to deal with that added distance. Like my fitness isn't going to be an issue for that. For these longer races, it's not your top-end fitness that matters, is it? It's being resilient, it's having the good strength and conditioning, that resilience, getting your nutrition right, it's power hiking, it's you know, all those sort of things. If you can get that stuff right and have a good, consistent run, keep moving, spend less time in checkpoints, then that's more important than having a high-end VO2 max. Yeah, you get some efficiency maybe with running faster and and so on, but you're also more injury prone as well. So it's better to go in fresh and slightly undercooked as opposed to going in overcooked and with with injuries. So hopefully learning lessons.

SPEAKER_01

I think that you'll be good to go. You're a diligent person, and I think with eight weeks until your race, you're doing all the right things. Yeah. And you know, for me personally, if I have an injury, it's like I need to sleep. That's the key thing for me. And I know you're very, very busy, and sleep probably is sometimes to the back burner, but that is such a key time for when healing happens. So my weakness, that's your weakness.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I would I've been better, getting better amounts of sleep, really tried to to focus on that, and I feel better for it as well, to be fair. Because all things like your hormones, like I if I if I don't get as much sleep, I eat more late at night, I get the cravings, and then I yeah, less sleep, I'm more tired, I'm less productive. I store body fat more so around my stomach. I can tell. And obviously, it's because your hormones are out of sync, you're not getting the the required recovery. So, yeah, it's something I've really worked on just trying to get a little bit more in and definitely better. I could still do some more, especially when your training volume goes up, but you know, there's always going to be something, isn't there, that's got to give. And I think the sleep is is certainly one of the more the necessary getting the the long days that you'd like out on the mountains all the time. But that's life, you've got to have that bit of balance.

SPEAKER_01

For sure. I wish you all the luck in the world for that upcoming race and for all the races on your calendar. I hope the injury is no more and you are 100%. And yeah, for people who are interested in looking at the documentary, learning more about Pain Cave, your headwear gear, where can they find out more about that?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean the documentary, we're gonna start filming that over the next couple of weeks building up to the race. But if you yeah, follow me on Instagram, John ShieldrunsUltras, paincaveheadwear.com for the headwear. But yeah, usually if you follow me on there, usually I'll I'll try and update. I'm I'm not that bad at social media that I don't update things on there. So yeah, people can follow me there, that'd be great.

SPEAKER_01

Awesome. Thanks so much for your time today. And yeah, we'll have to have you back on after your race and see how everything went. Yeah, for sure. Do you have any in your scope that you're looking at the races over here?

SPEAKER_00

Love to do Moab 240 or Tahoe 200, the Arizona Monster 300. There's quite a few out there, but yeah, I'm uh open to suggestions as well. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01

Well, thank you again, and yeah, we'll have to have you back on.

SPEAKER_00

That'd be great. Thanks so much.

Contributor

Nick Hancock

Host
Contributor

Faye Johnson

Co-host
Contributor

Matt Scarsbrook

Co-host