From Pro Runner to Cancer Survivor: Redefining Performance with Adam Freudenthal

In this episode, I sit down with my friend Adam Freudenthal, former professional runner, ultrarunner, and cancer survivor, to talk about resilience, identity, and redefining performance after a life-changing diagnosis.

Adam competed at an elite level with ASICS Greenville Track Club Elite, running 14:15 for 5K and 1:05 for the half marathon. In 2020, he was diagnosed with testicular cancer and underwent surgery and intensive chemotherapy before being declared cancer-free later that year.

We dive into his journey through cancer treatment, the mental and physical challenges of returning to running, and how his relationship with training has evolved from high-performance road racing to a more sustainable approach and transition into ultrarunning. We also discuss burnout in competitive running, shifting identity after injury or illness, and how to build a healthier, long-term approach to endurance training.

If you’re a runner navigating setbacks, returning from injury or illness, or looking to build a more sustainable training mindset, this episode will give you perspective, tools, and encouragement for your own journey.

Right, that's us done. If that was useful… share it. Stick it in your club WhatsApp, send it to that mate who's always getting injured three weeks before race day. You know the one ;)

If you want to go deeper on any of this, Nick puts out videos every week on YouTube, and the entire team of coaches are sharing helpful tips on their instagram channels... links below. And if you're thinking you actually need a proper plan and someone in your corner… we've got Guided Coaching from 97 quid a month, right up to full one-to-one coaching with the coach of your choice. Either way, maximummileagecoaching.com is where you want to be.

See you on the next one.

To work with us - https://join.maximummileagecoaching.com/home-page-9835

Nick's YT - youtube.com/channel/UCgdIPeN3bF7I7-tcspyFbVg/

Faye's IG - https://www.instagram.com/fayejohnsoncoaching/

Rachael's IG - https://www.instagram.com/rachforthelongrun/

Hannah's IG - https://www.instagram.com/coach_hannah_witt/

Matt's IG - https://www.instagram.com/ultracoachmatt/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey, welcome to the Maximum Mileage Podcast. I'm Coach Hannah Witt, and this is where we talk about building strong, resilient runners without the constant cycle of injury, burnout, or guesswork. Each episode, I sit down with runners, coaches, and experts to break down training, recovery, fueling, and mindset so you can train with more confidence and actually see progress that lasts. And if you prefer to watch these conversations, you can find the full video versions on my YouTube channel, Coach Hannah Witt, under the Performance Collective series. Let's dive in. Today's guest is Adam Freudenthal, former professional runner turned ultra runner and cancer survivor whose journeys reshaped his relationship with the sport. Adam ran at an elite level with ASICs Greenville Track Club Elite, clocking 1415 for 5K and 105 for the half marathon. But in 2020, everything changed when he was diagnosed with testicular cancer, undergoing surgery and intensive chemotherapy before being declared cancer free later that year. What followed wasn't a simple return, it was a complete shift in perspective from chasing performance and perfection to finding a healthier, more sustainable connection to running. Adam's story is one of resilience, identity, and redefining what success really means.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Hey, welcome back to the show. Today we are joined by Adam Freudenthal. He is a friend of mine. He is a high-performing endurance athlete and former professional runner with A6 Greenville Track Club Elite, where he recorded standout performances, including a 14-15 5K and a 108 half marathon. He now channels his passion into coaching as a volunteer distance coach at the University of South Carolina upstate while building his career in communications and marketing. A Winthrop University graduate with a background in marketing and economics, Adam Adam's journey is defined not only by performance but by resilience, having overcome cancer along the way. Thanks so much, Adam, for being on the show today. Really, it's great to connect. I don't think we we had a let's see, we connected what back. It was the year that you came to run the bear, right? Grandfather Mountain Bear race.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Yeah, it was the year the bear got canceled because of the because of some terrible circumstances.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

What year was that? That was pre-poline. Was it pre-COVID?

SPEAKER_00 2:32

No, no, it was definitely it was after COVID. I think it was like literally gonna be one of my first bits of competition when I was considering returning to the sport after retiring in 2020. It might have been 2022, and I think it was like June of 22. We were up there and yeah, ready about the start. There was an accident that unfortunately took, I think, a lady's life at the start line. And yeah, it was it was a really weird weekend. I think they canceled all the running events. And I think I left, I was supposed to stay the whole weekend with some friends, and I was just like, I'm not, I don't want to be here. So I just kind of like took a long way home, drove, and drove the roundabout way back to Spartanburg by going through Rockville and like stopping at a place I used to eat at in college and running one of my routes when I got there just to like kind of get in a better headspace. But yeah, like it's been interesting since like my running career of college post-collegiate. After I left GTC in like 2014, and then kind of linked up with a guy here in Spartanburg that coached that coached at USD Up. That was the head that is the head coach at USD Upstate. Asked him to work with me, got a little bit faster on the roads for sure. Ended up running like 105 in the fall of 19, and tried to go for the standard in the marathon at CIM and took a big swing and had a big miss in the last four miles, which was a lot of. I mean, it was like a very humbling experience. Like you always hear the marathon owes you nothing and you realize it very quickly during the race. So yeah, it's uh is and then obviously COVID hit, and then my my battle with cancer kind of hit three months into COVID. So that was that was a very, very difficult time mentally and physically for me, just like enduring surgeries and chemotherapy. So I could come back to the sport, but just what people don't realize is like chemo does a number to your body. There's still things to this day that are just like not ticking correctly, but it's fine. You know, I'm I'm alive, which is the most important thing. But you know, I just like it was like six months of trying to get back into it. I just remember like it was midway through an interval where I just stopped, looked at my coach, and was like, I'm done. Like, I'm done. I just I'm don't want to do this anymore. And then ran here and there for a little bit, did some fun things with some friends, took a little break from running in like 203 and 24, got into cycling a little bit, and then yeah, like kind of midway through the fall this past year, I was like, I kind of want to run ultras. You know, that's an untapped thing I've never done. I don't have anything to measure myself against. I've had friends that have had really good success at Ultras, so I was like, I want to check out that community, and yeah, so like been training for Ridge to Rails, which is in June, up in Old Fort, and pretty excited to do a 50k there and see what happens. And if that goes well, some goals to run another one in the fall and then go to do Solly in January for sure, and maybe do JFK next year for the 50 miler.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Nice. I mean, you've had a really complicated time. Turbulent is the word that I would use, but taking it uh way back. First of all, you said 105, that was your half PR, and I misquoted I said 108 in the intro because I just pulled my stuff from oh yeah, I like hadn't updated any of my stuff.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Uh yeah, yeah, it was um shoot, like I remember running that 105. It was four weeks before the marathon, and we went up to indie, and my coach was like, Yeah, run like the first 10k, kind of like a tempo run, and then just take off. And I did, and it was just that was like just a fun experience because it was the first time in a race where no one ever passed me. Like I was only passing people and passing really big names because everyone went out for the standard, everyone was just at indie in the half going for the standard. So there were some people really blowing up, and then it was also it was bitterly cold that day. Like, I think the real fuel was 10 degrees. I just remember I remember as soon as I landed in Indy, I was never warm, like never warm, but it was such a fun experience. And then CIM was a fun experience, got to go out there with a couple friends and really just take a swing for it. And you know, one of the guys qualified, which is pretty cool. But then, you know, obviously, like with the trials being in Atlanta, so close, you just can't go and support like your friends. So it was that was a fun time to just be down there and see see people running. And and I say this jokingly, but like I was so glad in some ways I didn't qualify because that course was just that course was brutal. Like, I think there was like 1500 feet of gain, and I was like, oh man, I would have just been I would have been dragging. But I think I also heard like just the people like were falling because of the how the like U-turns were. So I was like, I'm I'm like a baby giraffe when I run. That would have been me. So I just uh I mean it was it was kind of cool to see that.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

You're tall, right? Like I feel almost like a baby giraffe. I that's how I would describe because I'm fairly tall, and you know, all these other compact little little women runners who are they seem very efficient. I feel like I'm lumping along. How tall are you?

SPEAKER_00 8:16

I like 6'1 was the last I measured. I think it's anywhere between six foot and six one, depending on gravity for the day. So, like, I mean, shoot, I fell on a run, I mean, like on the sidewalk running with my coach with my former coach. Like, we were just doing an easy run, and I just ate it. And and yeah, so I was like, it was took a turn, just bam, right on the ground. And then oh it's just yeah, I so trail running's been interesting because you fall a lot, of course. And then I was like, oh well, at least at least you land on dirt, so it's a little I have messed up my body falling on trails.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Like, I'll be like, I'm so sick of being on the treadmill, I'm so sick of my usual round runs. I'm gonna go do like a 16-mile long run on these trails that are super technical. And I come back, like always I've fallen at least twice, and I will fall on rocks and being on my knees, and it's just a mess. So, yeah, I'm glad that you haven't had a bad tumble on the trail.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

It's it's it's so weird. Like when I fall, it's like it's either on the flattest part, and I'm just like, I think because it's so flat, I turn my brain off, and my my toe just grabs something, and it's just like it's so weird.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

It's it's such a weird thing falling on the trails because you're just like, ugh, like, and because you look and you're like, I shouldn't have fallen here, and then there's times where you fall and you're like that happens like my sister, she fell on a not very appreciable kind of little whatever in the on the ground, and she took a tumble. I honestly think it's like you you let your guard down, like you said, during flatter sections that don't seem super technical because you basically have to be on mentally the whole time, and so you kind of get it rolled into a false sense of security when it it's like a break in technicality, and then that's when something happens. But yeah, the roots up here, they're just really bad because up in the mountains, two roots are exposed, and I don't usually fall on like or trip over rocks, but it's the roots are just like I said, really bad. But where you are, I feel like because I visited Springville um PC back in 2014, and it was like the soil was almost I don't know if it was clay or sand or kind of a bowl.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Yeah, there's a lot of clay. I know there's a trail system camp prof near us, and it's it's pretty big with mountain biking, so they're kind of like the undulating just rhythm killer stuff, and at times it's exposed clay, at other times it's dirt, rock, and and roots. I try to do a lot of my like harder technical runs up in Brevard and Asheville, though, so I'll drive to get up there like two weekends ago. Well, I guess last weekend. It was like it was last Saturday. It feels like it was a lot longer than that. Former college teammate and I, Brad Orr, he also ran in Winthrop. He was a few years older than me, and he's become such a phenomenal, phenomenal endurance athlete, just ultra-marathoner. He's done Run Rabbit Run a couple times out in Colorado, which is just an insane hundred mile air. But yeah, like he took me on this loop. Well, I guess it was more like a clover situation, uh, more than a loop. But like as far as tower was just climbing. All we did was climb. And I mean, it's such a it's such a weird thing, too. It's like you'll just start power hiking, and it feels harder at times than running and do something like this is this is a completely different sport in its own right, because you're just you're carrying everything, you're like you're doing a little bit of orienteering, you're having to manage calories, you're having to manage efforts. Because like I when you're running on the road, you know, you can kind of like take a little more chances because like if you have to bail, you gotta bail. Like in trail, if you're like 12 miles out and there's no way back, you're 12 miles out, so there's no real bailing and stuff like that. But yeah, it's it's it's a completely cool new light of the sport for me. I've also noticed like the trail community is so welcoming and inviting, which I find I know running a community in and of itself is, but I feel like that like elite running level on the roads, it was there's definitely a little more like kill or be killed situation. And I think with trail running, it's like everyone's very welcoming and accepting. And I got to see that when I volunteered for a race this past January, just to kind of get an idea of like what the culture's like. So yeah, it's I I I'm kind of enjoying this like next chapter in my like running journey. I really hope everyone gets the chance to like go through all the chapters, you know. It's like high school, college, track, road. I mean, I wish they had more cross-country races post-collegiate. Honestly, those are so fun. I think that I think that's why I like it, kind of gives you that little sense of like of cross-country because you're like, ah, I'm out in the woods doing stuff. But yeah, you know, it's like having checked all those boxes, like, I don't know if I'll ever do a hundred miler. I I said I'd never do an ultra marathon, and now I'm eating my words. So it's just like, I don't want to say I'll never do it, but I feel like that's the like creme de la creme is doing like an 100 miler or western state and stuff like that. So it's like obviously long ways, long ways off from that, considering like 24 miles feels like it's gonna break my body in two.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

So yeah, I mean I just got off a podcast the other day with a UK adventure/slash endurance athlete John Shield, and he's doing like 268 mile stage races like multiple days. I mean, you're like shaking your head now. Yeah, I oh man, his stories too. Like he he was saying how he had such bad blisters, like the bottom of his feet was basically rocks, all the skin had peeled off, and he like said it was easier just to stop his feet in his shoes and keep going than to try and like take them off and medicate them. So I have no desire to like feet like break my body like to that extent to see one of my capable of like you're at this awesome place where you're rediscovering running in the sense of um ultras. I I kind of want to, I feel like I'm just gonna speak for a long time. I just want to get back to like speed again, you know, like because I I feel like I was fast at one time. You have like intrinsic speed, obviously, so you're going the opposite direction, but to each his own, and I I honestly think that if you're you're like able to to run in a way that excites you, like that's the most important thing.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Yeah, yeah. I think I like to give like credit where credit was due, like Coach Caldwell at GTC Elite, like really unlocked my ability to like run faster than I thought I could. Just some of the workouts we did, like they never really were like these barn burner workouts that like everyone's like, Oh, I need that special workout. I never need I need that special workout. It was just like it's almost like we just did a lot, a lot of strides. We did a lot of strides.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

I I remember thinking it wasn't a mileage heavy program with a lot of drills. It seemed like you guys hit speed like in some capacity every run. It was like surges, maybe, or just something light on easy days, but it's like you were touching on speed in some way, like every session. But like I said, mileage wasn't super high. I remember Laura Caldwell talking with her, and she had done I don't I don't remember her time, but she had a successful marathon. She was only doing like 60 miles a week at the time, you know? Like it's crazy. Like their philosophy is so massively different than that, for example, zap endurance to which you know, they're pretty I mean it was specific to every athlete, but you know, it was uncommon to see people who weren't like in 70, 80 miles mile weeks there. So what was what was your mileage like when you were there?

SPEAKER_00 16:33

I'm sure it was it was different depending on so we did like the quote unquote badger miles, as it's called, or Jerry miles, which were like minutes divided by seven. So like the idea was like your baseline is for the men was seven minute miles. I forget what it was for the women. And it would, I mean, Monday was like 30 minutes to 45 minutes max. That was Monday. Tuesday was workout in the morning, double back in the afternoon. I mean, it wasn't a work, it wasn't a workout then. That was before these, you know, these like double threshold things. And you know, we would do like a session, maybe it'd probably be a total of like at most two hours in the morning and 40 minutes in the evening, and then 45 on Wednesday with with drills, strength routine, hurdles, and strides. And then Thursday was a morning session of either a steady state progression run, or I mean, it was either steady state or progression. Uh the fartlicks were earlier in the cycle, but like he kind of backed off of those the more into this season or into our like specific block that we got. Friday was the same as Wednesday. Saturday was like it was like three different workouts. It was either like tempo with 200s, speed economy, or like kind of a combination of the two. And like, I love the speed economy workout. That thing was like a glute beat up, or like you go in, you do two 200s to prime up straight into like either a 1000 to 2000 meter distance, and you're running 3K or slightly under 3k pace for that thing. So you're kind of doing like a race specific effort, and then you go and just do like eight 200s after it, and he would actually like monitor your form, and if your form broke down, he would pull you. The whole idea was to learn how to run economically fast. And then the next day was like a long run. He never really put an emphasis on pace during the long run, so I would just like at first earlier in my career, I would just like last long runs, and then I was just I got I got a really bad stress fracture, which I'd never had a bone fracture before. So, like me and him sat down and like kind of evaluated like what when happened what happened, and we realized like, oh man, like we've done all this stuff and should back off on intensity in certain areas because we're not we weren't marathon Pacific at the time. It was like five to 10k for me, and he was like, run with the women, just run with the women. So like my long run would honestly just be like two hours, and so I mean, shoot, Kim Rook, like Nicole, Allison, they would they weren't running slow either. So some of these runs I would just be like behind them, being like, Can we please slow down? So, like um, but it's just the of course the one guy just griping at the long run was me for the longest time. And yeah, so that was kind of like a basic week there. And then I left and followed that training for like six months before looping in with like my last coach, Carson Blackwalter, and that was a whole different approach. Tempo runs became a like weekly staple. They were either Monday or Friday, and then Monday or Friday would flip with intervals, so it'd be a tempo run one day or intervals the next. And he emphasized like a lot of like like we're gonna do volume and make it tough on those volume days, and then like everything else is very aerobic-based, and then your long run, you're gonna you're gonna put a little more effort in the long run. So it was kind of like some similar things from GTC Elite and some other things, but like when I went on on my own, I mean, you know, uh there are things I like took out of the thing, like I because I started working a full-time job, so I like had to take a take a step back of doing all the drills, which looking back, kind of regret because flexibility is like now and about to be 37 is not great. Um, I feel like I used to be very flexible. Like that whole the dynamic flex routine that was worked out at GTC Elite was awesome. Like doing those after every hard session. Sometimes I would do it before bed too, just to loosen up, and then like after every long run, like you just felt really limber and loose, and and now it's just like I get out of the car and I groan. Arsman would just tell me that's just getting old, and I'm I'm I'm I'd like to think it's just me being inflexible because I refuse to believe I'm getting old. But yeah, so like it was a completely different philosophy. I would say probably badger miles. I was doing like 80 to 85 badger miles, which is like we were estimating 90 to 95 miles a week because you know, I wasn't really running seven-minute pace, I don't feel like a lot. And then with Carson, it was definitely like I was wearing a GPS watch fully, really in charge. I was kind of more in charge of my mileage. And I think the lowest week I ever had was 75. Like, unless it was like my two week break, which I did, which was like the first week was like. Like, I never really took time off off. I just learned that I could never stop running per se, like in the sense of like taking like two weeks completely off because my body just wouldn't handle that well. I would do like two, maybe three days off, and then I would do like 20 minute runs the rest of the week. And then the next week would be like 20 to 40 minute runs, and then the next week would just be like, all right, inter workouts, like cruise miles, which were pretty, which were fun, light, light tempos, and start the long run at like 90 minutes and built up from there. So yeah, like it had like two really cool different training philosophies, which were I can't even remember what my college training schedule was. That that was too long ago, and I feel like it was so it was so different than anything I ever did. Uh like, even though like there are some workouts I remember from Winthrop that I love that I used to like to this day, if I'm like bored, I'll just like ask some guys, like, hey, y'all want to do this workout? And they're like, Where'd you get that from? I was like, you don't need to worry about it. So, but yeah, so or I'll just kind of mimic it, or like kind of I guess like mold it into something that I can do at like 5 30 in the morning before I have to like shower and drive to work. But yeah, so it's like it was kind of fun to do have two different training philosophies and have success in both. Like, I definitely think like Coach Caldwell gave me a lot of confidence in being able to be competitive in a race, like to be able to be like in position to make moves late in the race. And then I think Carson taught me that I could like I could go far, like I could really just push my body farther than I ever had before. Because I'd never done like eight, nine, ten-mile tempo runs before. And that was something that Carson, like with the upstate guys, they would do six to seven mile tempo runs, which is great because if you think about it, like men are doing 10Ks in college, so it's like you kind of need to do a little bit to like teach your body to you can run that instead of just doing like six to seven by a mile with two minutes rest and all that. It's like kind of a nice rhythmic run and stuff like that. But yeah, and uh, I mean, but now it's like you you see some of these training things that guys are doing, and it's just like, oh, like I don't know if I'd want to like wake up, do a workout, go to work all day, and then go do another workout. I just I feel like I would just aren't they going to work though?

SPEAKER_02 24:34

Like, are they like professional actors?

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Some are there, there are some that are probably doing the more like well, I guess depend like you can't really. I mean, uh, like to say it's blue collar because you're you know you're pursuing that running passion and having to work for it. But like I think there are some people that do it, but it's just uh obviously most of them aren't. Most of them are just going home, taking a nap, eating a bunch of calories, and going back and doing it again. Yeah, I just think it's and so much has changed from when I left, like truly left the sport in like 2020 to now, like the trainers are different, the racing shoes are different. I mean, like if we would have had these spikes in college, like then these kids have now, like you don't think we both would have ran like at least 10, 15 seconds faster in the 5K?

SPEAKER_02 25:19

We'll talk a lot more than that, I think.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

I and I don't know if everyone's like, what do you think the reason is? I don't think it's I don't think it's the foam propelling you, which everyone's like, oh, the foam, the foam. I was like, I think the foam protects you. It allows you to put more force in like your own force into the ground, and then the next day you're not like like walking like an eight-year-old to the out of your bed to go grab breakfast. I mean, I just remember in college you'd look at the spikes, you're like, I want the thinnest spike possible that I can walk the next day. I just remember having that. It's like, oh, that one, that one looks good. That one, that will protect me enough for for 25 laps on the track.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

My coach my coach didn't think that I was durable enough for like spikes, so I had a glass that I would wear because I don't know, I think he thought I was kind of injury prone. And I mean, granted, I was, and just because I didn't have a huge background in high school where I was it was basically like, oh, I feel like running today, and I would, and it wasn't I just wasn't durable by the time I got through college, so I was wearing flats a lot.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

I like I wore flats one season in college, and that was like honestly my best cross season, but it was also like the year that we had like zero rain, so it's like it kind of worked in my favor because it was like you know, in the south, it's all clay around here, and I mean regionals was in Louisville, which is not much different soil. And I just remember they had to have the cart had to be like a hundred meters ahead of San Challengo because it was so dusty, and like we were just caked in dust after the regionals. Like that was the only year I wore flats. I think I wore flats in track for the 10K just so my feet weren't beat up. Because I think I only really ran the 10k at conference. I think I maybe ran it like once prior to conference, like midway through college, just to see if I could do it, and then just like was thrown into it at conference to score points. But yeah, I mean, like it's just crazy how different everything is, like nutrition, just training, shoes. I I mean, I I it it's it's not hard to see how the sport has progressed. And it's like you see people like, why are they running so fast? I was like, they were running 205 and shoes that like you wouldn't you go to school, and by the end of the day, your feet would hurt, like like you know, it's uh it's just it's now they're creating like these amazing shoes that weigh half the weight of the shoes we used to run in, and and just you're able to take them out of the box and go. So it's uh yeah, it's it's it's I'm kind of interested to see how that's gonna transition to the trails. Like you can kind of see it in some of the shoes now. Uh like I think most of the major brands have like a super shoe on the trail, which is kind of crazy to me to think that a trail you need a super shoe for the trail, but I guess it makes sense for protection wise. But like also it's kind of curious if it's like is it too much stack hype? Because you kind of want to be uh I feel like you want to be lower to the ground so you're able to like have a little bit more control and not uh too much instability with everything, but yeah, just a just a very cool time to be back in the sport and seeing it and kind of like following that.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

I'm sure. Yeah, when I think about running on trails, the type of shoe that you pick is definitely specific to what kind of what kind of trail you're running on. If you're like out west and you're on a probably either hard-packed dirt or you know, not very technical because it's pretty wide open space and you know, there's not a lot of leaf cover for the most part, unless you're in the Pacific Northwest. But yeah, your shoe choice would be much different than if you were here on the trail, trails that are very technical and root covered, and there's a lot of sharp climbs that you know, you go up, you go down. And I don't think I would want a whole bunch of foam under I know I wouldn't want to hold foam. I would want to be able to feel the ground because I would face plant probably instantly if I had like several inches of stack height of foam underneath my feet. But you know, how did you even get started with running? Did you like other sports as a kid or what?

SPEAKER_00 29:34

So, like I guess my running journey actually started in elementary school. My mom was an assistant librarian at the elementary school I went to, and we have to be there till five o'clock, you know, she had she had to work, and I didn't want to be in the library that time, all that time. And we had a little like running club, so I'd go do the running club, I'd go do the running club, and unbeknownst to me, the PE teacher went up to my mom and was like, You need to have him go run cross country. And the principal at the time, his son had run cross country, and his son was actually like a phenomenal talent at Spartan High, was one of maybe three guys in school history. Because in the state of South Carolina, in seventh grade, you can run varsity cross country because they consider it a non-contact sport. I would love them to see the scars on my legs and tell me it's not a contact sport. And uh, but like he he even like talked to my mom about like, yeah, Adam should run. And I was like, I don't want to run. I was like a weird little nerdy little kid, and my mom was like, You're not sitting in his side all summer, your seventh grade year, you're gonna run cross-country for one year and see what happens. I was terrible, I was horrible. I think my first 5k was like 25, 26 minutes, like hated it. And then, like, I think the second 5K, I ran a little bit faster, but I was like, I'm tired of being bad. So I just kind of started trying and ran track, came back the next year, eighth grade, made varsity in eighth grade, made the state team, but didn't was like as an alternate, didn't make the like the running team, ran in state ninth grade all the way through senior year. So it was really like my parents kind of like forced me into the sport, and in some ways, jokes on them because like I kept going, and they were probably at times they're like stop, like became like the complete opposite. But yeah, so basically, yeah, my running journey was my mom basically telling me I wasn't gonna be uh gonna be sitting in the house in the house the whummer watching TV. So I get dropped off at six o'clock in the morning at Spartanburg High School or 6, 6:30. I can't remember. So hot in the summer, I feel like six made more sense. Go run, come home and do stuff around the house. So yeah, just to do it again. I mean, we met five days a week during the summer because it was like considered conditioning, so it really wasn't practice. But yeah, I mean, that's how it started, and then ended up like going to college at Presbyterian College for a semester, wasn't very happy there. I mean, I I went there because it was like my second choice, my first choice. The school dropped to Division III Athletics, so I lost my athletic scholarship, and it was like that was a tough thing because I just didn't want to go back through the recruiting process again. And I'd kind of already been recruited by Presbyterian, so I I went there, but really should have gone back into the like just like putting my name out there and trying to go to another school, but like ended up like in the long run working out, had friends at Winthrop. Um if you know Brandon Hudgens, like his brother Tyler was my age, right now at Winthrop. I mean, like kind of me and him were came pretty close at over our senior year at a few races, and kind of the like him and his dad kind of were like, Hey, just come look at Winthrop, like get your release and come look at Winthrop. And I sat down with Coach Paxton and like I just remember leaving his office with my dad and being like, I don't want to run anywhere else, like I will bleed for this school. It was just a great, great connection immediately with them and transferred to Winthrop mid mid-year. And yeah, I mean it was an up and down career at Winthrop. I was I was like kind of like you in the sense I was very injury prone. And then I would just like bandage myself up for conference to try to like help the team. And yeah, it was it was a it was a great time, like four and a half years there, five all conference honors within the big south and the school record. Never got all region, missed nationals one year by like two spots in cross, which was like a tough pill to swallow. But looking back at that race, there was nothing, there was nothing more I could have done. And yeah, it's like never making never making like first rounds in track. Like there were always things I never got to do that I like I felt like hadn't had the chips fall in my way a time or two would have happened. But you know, just bad luck or not wise choices by me and training. And it took me a while to own up that it was a lot more my choices that made probably those things instead of just like instead of like blaming others, you know. The older you get, you kind of look back and you're like, oh yeah, probably probably should have slept more or probably could have like probably could have cut that run like a mile or two short to help me out here. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:39

It was still an inventory. I still screw that up all the time.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

I think I've got I think that was like one good thing about like in like going through cancer, it's just like you kind of have this like idea of like, you know, there's you can as an as endurance athletes, we we we kind of are masochists in the sense that like we we kind of like seek out pain and go for it and stuff like that. And it's after that, I was like, I don't really like I'll go to a certain level of pain in this level where I like uh so like uh if it if I wake up and I'm I'm beat up, I'm like, nah, I'm good. I'll just I'll just have a cup of coffee today and and walk around the neighborhood during my lunch break or around like walk around the office if I have if it's an office day and you know, or weightlift, do something different, not feeling tied to running anymore. I feel like at times like I I'd like to say it was like a love-hate kind of relationship or like a toxic relationship where it was like I have to run. Like if I don't run, like what what am I doing? I think that's kind of like this whole like rekindling the relationship with running. It's like I want to make it more like symbiotic. I want it to like, I want it to be an escape and not like not like an identity per se. I want it to be like, hey, like I want to go run 20 miles in the woods because that's fun. And not like I gotta, I want to go run 20, or I have to go run 20 miles in the woods because like I have it written down on this piece of paper that I made earlier this month, and I have to do this, or else I can't do this, and I can't do this. Yeah, so I think like I think that's the thing is like what people like who are new to the sport, it's exciting because like you know, you start realizing like there's running is a huge allegory for life. You have ups and downs. You have like you have periods of times where you want to quit, and periods of times where it just feels effortless. And it's kind of like I'm in that part of my life now where it's like I kind of just want it to be, you know, like something that's very much an escape and happy and not a pressure and stuff like that. So I mean that's another reason like I retired from the roads. I just like the pressure of like showing up on the start line ready to go was like it became kind of off-putting and anxiety-ridden first day. Because you can't hide, you can't hide on the road, like it's like you can't hide on the roads with a track. So you're you're either on or you're not. And I think with the trails though, it's different because it's just like you just go out there and you can hide. You can uh you can just be like, oh man, I'm just this this too steep today. I'm just gonna I'm gonna power hike up this thing and get to the top, look at a view, smile because it's like, oh my gosh, this is beautiful, you know, and go down the mountain and get in your car and go get a burger or something like that. And that's that's kind of how it is. Like, I mean, last week it was awesome. Like, you know, I was completely broken. Brad completely broke me. And like first thing I did was like, dude, that was awesome. Like, thanks for taking me on this route. Like, sorry I slowed you down, you know, and but like you, you killed it. And he was like, Yeah, and then immediately got burgers. And it was like, I mean, it was like four hours of just talking about random stuff, like catching up and reminiscing about good times and bad times and life and stuff like that. And I think that's like the cool thing. It's like you're not running in silence like you are on some of those like arduous marathon prep long runs. And yeah, it's just uh I I know probably in a year from now if if I get the bug to really be competitive, and then I'll probably like my mindset will completely change because I that's just kind of how I am. I'm I've always been an all or nothing kind of guy, but like right now it's just it's just fun to try something new and not feel like there's an obligation to hit a standard.

unknown 38:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Which is which is like cool, and I I just like I really hope people find that with running. Like it took me a while to find that.

SPEAKER_02 38:57

I could tell when when I met you at GTC that you put a lot of pressure on yourself. Like you had a workout. I remember I done my run of you know, finishing, watching you on the track, and like even though you had a good workout, it wasn't exactly perfect. And I remember like in your double, you pushed your butt your double speed a little bit to kind of make up for that. And that was probably something that I mean I would do the same thing because it's like you were just playing.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

Oh, I got yelled at, I got yelled at constantly by Codwell.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

Pushing your double, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

I mean, I think I was doing I was doing double thresholds before that we even knew a double threshold.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

So I mean, like it's just it just says a lot about your your drive though. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing, you know, just channeling it healthily is obviously important, but the fact that you put that pressure on yourself to hit it perfect. And I won't say that you're punishing yourself by doing you know a quicker double, but it's just you expect a lot out of yourself, and I'm the same way. And I guess trying a different sport like culture running allows you to be kinder to yourself because you don't have you know previous standards that you're trying to to meet because it's a whole different ball game. But you know, I'll say like once you if you do get competitive again and you want to start doing speed workouts and whatever, being competitive on the roads, the thing that is addictive for me is seeing the progress, even if I'm not nearly as fast as I was at one point. But seeing progress, like you get so addictive to seeing the progress and seeing like faster splits and yeah, and it's completely this internal pressure to get faster. But that also makes it exciting, though. Like progress is exciting, and I think that's why like a lot of beginning runners they get excited to seeing that progression, and it gets really like make it gets them down when perhaps they start to see a little bit of a plateau or maybe decrease in performance because of fatigue and fatigue happens, but yeah, it's it's just managing the the ebbs and flows of performance, and it's you know, I'm I feel like I'm in that right now. Like, like it's classic, beat yourself up if the first run doesn't go well yesterday. I did like an 18-mile run and my GPS was freaking out. It was saying that I was doing like these 640s in the beginning, and then like I ended and it was like 932 pace, and I was like, What? You know, and I just like I took a nap and I couldn't even relax. I was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna go test the GPS again and see what's going on. So I went out and did an eight-mile run, and the GPS was like saying that I was still pretty slow, and I was like, you know, because I've been having pretty good progress with my watch, and but it's like you get so addicted to seeing progression, and then you beat yourself up, and then here I am next day, and my hips bothering me. So I just had like a fun day of ellipticals. So we're our own worst enemy, and I completely I relate to it so hard.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Do you have like a favorite distance that you were like, Man, I wish I could just be like phenomenal at this distance because it's my favorite distance?

SPEAKER_02 42:17

I have no interest in like trying to worry about fuel during a run. Like, give me a 5k, 10k, you know, let me do the race and just be done. Warm up, do it, do it fast, you know. And I almost feel like I know physiologically it feels better and you can bounce back a lot quicker because I'm like you, I hate taking time off of running. But um, yeah, I I probably say lower end of the spectrum. What about you?

SPEAKER_00 42:47

Honestly, I like I wish I could have been a 5k. I wish I could have been like a 13, like 30 guy. Like that was it's just a beautiful event. Like, I think the 5k on the track is one of the most pure beautiful events because you can take the people who can who have the higher the high like 15, 800 speed, and they can come up and they can like they can do some damage, and then you got the 10ks that are just like as long as you don't like break me in the first mile, we're gonna be fine. Yeah, and like oh I love the road 8k. Like the road AK was fun. They're getting rid of all the road 8Ks. I think maybe Crazy H is the only one that might be left.

SPEAKER_02 43:26

Johnson City? Yeah, I never did that. Did you ever do that?

SPEAKER_00 43:30

No, like I have some friends that are gonna go up and do it. I never did it. Like, I feel like it was just always like it's always it. Well, I I I hated racing in the summer. I kind of like I never raced in the summer because I just don't do well in the heat. So I kind of like told Colbert, I was like, I don't want to race in the summer. So I think he never like threw that idea. And then obviously when I was on my own, I was like, I think Carson was like, Hey, why don't you do craziest? I was like, No, I'm good, like, I'm fine. Like, I'll train with some of the guys. That are in town, like just do my mileage with them. And I don't like it.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

I don't see guys not good in the heat because it is like healthy hot. And are you in Smartburg or Greenball? Smartburg. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

It's like, I mean, the like I uh ended up like finding this like chart to like help manage my runs with like based on like dew point and temperature to do like temper like to do pace adjustments. I would do things like that because I would just be like, I mean, you come home and you just look like you jumped in the pool. And I I'd have four pairs of shoes just because like it would take three days for one to dry. Like everybody's just like squish like immediately because the I mean it was like it was kind of like that today. I mean it was when I I I waited too late. Mistake one, because I was just having a lazy day, and then the mistake two was like didn't need anything before the run, and it was just like 70 degrees when I started running in 70 humidity, and I was and of course the sun's out there.

SPEAKER_02 45:04

I don't eat the full percent, and then it's hot, and I'm like, what? I knew when I texted you this morning, I was like, You want it hot today? And you're like, Oh, I'm gonna get ready, get ready for a run, and it was already after nine, and I was like, Ah, he's gonna he's gonna catch the heat, but um oh I uh I I fought some demons so much.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

I fought some demons. The route I did too, it's it's a pretty it's someone found it. It might have been like one of my friends before, like who lives in town now. He like lived in town previously when I was at GTC before he went back to app. Um, he was a college teammate, but he got he coached a little bit at Wafford as an interim coach before he like went to grad school, and like he found this gravel road, and it's pretty fun because you like running two miles on pavement, and then it's just like three miles of just like very steep up and down gravel road, and there's randomly a DNR shooting range in the middle of it. So you're like you're and like in the in the months where there's hunting, people will just come out of the woods like dressed in camo, like carrying guns.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

That's that's kind of terrifying because uh well, that's just the south. You don't know.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

Oh, that's why I wear white. I wear like colors that will not be like dis like like misconstrued as a as a deer, like wear your leopard print, your leopard print top, your onesie. No, uh no, no, no, uh, no neutral pastel colors for sure. A lot of like white and highlighter yellow. Maybe I used to have some orange, but I hate orange. Multiple reasons why I hate that color. But no, like, yeah, so but it's I mean it's like it's secluded, no one really bothers you out there.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

But yeah, as it is there, as I mean, as it is here, being on gravel right now kind of sucks. It's like you mentioned dust and everything, your mouth is parched within about eight minutes, and you're like, I don't have decoration.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

I could go for a week of rain, honestly. If if if anything, for the pollen, like I feel like I feel like I don't know, maybe after the age of 28, anytime like this time of year comes around, it's just like I'm I do everything in my power to fight off a sinus infection because it's just like allergies. I think that's that's like uh one thing like when you're doing like a hard workout because you're just you know increased repetition of breath, you're just sucking in all that pollen.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

I don't know what what it is that's blooming.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

I think y'all are like three weeks behind us, too, because y'all are what like are you at like three or four thousand feet above school?

SPEAKER_02 47:59

Close to five.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

Okay, yeah. So you're like, I mean, I'm at like eight hundred feet right now, so you're probably like three or four weeks behind us.

SPEAKER_02 48:06

No, it hasn't even hit here yet, dying. I'm like every time I go uphill, you know, and I tend to like tuck my chin, you know, just because I'm looking at the ground. But yeah, every time I go uphill and I can feel it start to clog in my throat, and I'm like, you know, and it's filled with junk because of pollen, so it's fun. I remember at King in Bristol, like dogwood trees, that would kill me.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

It's horrible. But where where is King exactly? Is it like is it is it close to Johnson City or are y'all like more towards Knoxville?

SPEAKER_02 48:38

So Bristol, it's like tri-cities, Kingsport, Johnson City, Bristol, Bristol's one of them. It's like very close to Johnson City.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

Oh, wait, yes, so y'all are closer to like the Virginia state line then, right?

SPEAKER_02 48:51

Yeah, Bristol is interesting because like the Tennessee Virginia State Line literally like runs right through, I think, Spain Street, so kind of hurdles the two states, but yeah, that's Bristol. You're not a NASCAR fan.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

Oh, dude, like my PT is my physical therapist. Shout out to Drew McAbee, huge NASCAR fan. He's actually my neighbor too. Drew McAbee's got a pretty cool running story. The man was an offensive lineman in high school, like 300 pounds, and now maybe weighs a buck fifty. So it's he's he's he's pretty cool. Like, shout out to him for helping save my knees after years and stuff like that, and bouncing ideas off of for like like strength routines and whatnot. But no, he's a huge NASCAR fan, and like yeah, I've been trying to plead with him to finally take me to a NASCAR race so I can like live the little bit of southern boy that's in me to dream of yelling do it for Dale. But uh but uh it's funny. Like, I say I'm like I even though I was born here, both my parents are from Wisconsin, so I like never really felt southern.

SPEAKER_02 50:03

He doesn't like me as a southern boy, no.

SPEAKER_00 50:06

I mean, I I mean I grew up here and just felt like mom and dad both from Wisconsin grew up like everything kind of Midwestern-ish and very German stuff because of our heritage, so it's like but I still love my southern stuff. I love my fried chicken. I uh yeah, like gosh, sweet tea is amazing, all the good stuff. Everything that's bad for you for running is and made in the south, is what I've learned. And then they started putting buckies around here, and that was my demise.

SPEAKER_02 50:38

So you know, we didn't even talk about it much just because I mean you've alluded to it some, but you had you had cancer, like that's a huge deal, you know. And yeah, I I I I don't want to like I don't know, extract information out of you if you don't want to talk about it at all.

SPEAKER_00 50:57

No, it's it's just fine. I'm I'm happy to share it. Because like when I did do social media, I was trying to be very transparent about it because like I did have testicular cancer, so I had the same, I actually had the exact same diagnosis as Lance did. And like I was probably two weeks away from it getting to my lungs.

SPEAKER_02 51:17

Oh my god. Adam, it didn't wow yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:20

So like so everyone's asked me when I found out about it, and I was like, I definitely had it when I ran my marathon. There is no doubt about it that like the tumor had already started to metastasize at that point out of my out of my left testicle. And because like after the race, I just felt horrible. Like, and I mean, I like I can't describe how horrible I felt. Like I felt sick, I felt like I couldn't recover, my back would hurt, my hips would hurt, my adductives were hurt, and that's just like because the body's like shoving white blood cells there to try to heal. And I'd go get physio, I'd I'd go to like the performance therapy guy and Brad, Brad McKay, get ART, loosened up my hips, loosened on my back. I'd feel great for two to three days, pain would immediately come back. This went on for like two months, and I was like, geez, man, I'm never gonna run a marathon ever again if this is what my body does to me. Then COVID hit, and like so his physio stopped, I'm achy all the time, still trying to run. And my cat was on my lap one day, and he jumped off my lap, and his backpaw got me just right. And I've never felt pain like that before, and like the pain didn't go away, and I didn't really know what to do because it's COVID, you know, you don't want to go to the ER. I contacted a buddy who had had a torsion and was like, hey man, like scale of one to ten. How bad's a torsion? He's like, Oh, it's like a 10. I was like, okay, I'm at like a nine. I think I'm fine. Then I'm I'm probably fine. He's like, you might want to go get checked out. I was like, okay. And then call, I like got online, went to an e-doc, talked to an e-doc on the phone, and was like, hey, what do you what do I need to do? And they're like, you need to go get an ultrasound. I was like, okay, cool. Like, where do I go to do this? She's like, you gotta go to an ER. But like, I was like, all the ERs are in the day with COVID. She's like, there's gotta be an ER that doesn't have it. I was like, okay. My manager at the time was a lady, and so I was like, I really can't tell her that like my balls hurt. So I had to be very strategic. I was like, hey, hey, I'm having lower abdominal pain. I need they're telling me I need to go to the ER. Um, so I went to the ER and was in there for three hours. They ran like all this blood work, all these tests. I started praying for things that are which I never prayed for just because I was like, oh, that can be fixed by shot. Oh, this can be fixed by surgery. And when everything goes like that was negative, that was negative, that was negative. The D like the darkness in the back of your head starts being like, dude, you you got something. And guy came in. So like, hey, we found a tumor. You have to go to a specialist tomorrow. He's coming in on his day off. And I was like, What? So I'm not good with doctors in the sense of like they give me a diagnosis after that. I don't hear a word. I call it the Charlie Brown syndrome. So have you ever watched the Charlie Brown, like the adults, the womp womp? You give me the diagnosis, it's the womp womp after that. And so, like they sent a family friend with me who's like a second mother to me. So she could take notes because I was just gonna, I was just gonna be like, I knew it was coming. And yeah, and so we sat down. He um obviously examination talked to me, puts the ultrasounds up on the board, and is like, this is the healthy, this your healthy one, this your not healthy one. And it was like normal kind of like you know, skin tissue you can see on an ultrasound. And then the other one was just like black, like just gray, dark matter, black. And I was like, Oh, okay. He I was like, What do we do there? We're just gonna cut it out. He's like, it's all or nothing. I was like, okay, sweet. Not sweet. And then he's like, Yeah, we'll do surgery next Thursday. And it was like Thursday then. We're gonna send off her some blood work, go from there. Blood work came back, and they're like, We moved you up for surgery because your blood work, like your tumor levels are through the roof. And I was like, Okay, so it was April 27th of 2020. I had surgery. The day after my birthday was my surgery, and you know, surgery went well. They shouldn't give me my cell phone back as soon as they did. I was sending some crazy text messages to Alba. So, like, I remember texting a friend, they're like, What sentence did you just say? I was like, I told you I was fine. He's like, That is not what that sentence said. I was like, Okay, I'm just gonna put my phone down and go to sleep. A few weeks later, when the biopsy came back, that it was malignant, did a body scan, and there were a bunch of lymph nodes that had tumors in them, tracking towards my lungs. And they were like, you can do another surgery and less chemo or just full-on chemo. And that was a big weight to kind of go on because I was like, man, like the surgery I had cut into my abdomen, and like I already couldn't run for six weeks. Like, what's this surgery gonna do? Because, like, in my mind, the only thing that kept me going was running. I was like, I gotta get back to running, I gotta get back to running. So I'd I'd called like very, very close people to me. I'd called my college coach, I'd called my high school coach, I'd called Carson and like people who are very, very strong, like male mentors in my life. I talked with my minister at my church, and it was like, hey, like running will be there. It might not be there in the way you want it, but like your life's only so long. Like, you you need to get rid of this thing. So, like, we had agreed on surgery, but then Don Call just called and was like, Hey, we re-rand your tumor markers, you're no longer elected for surgery. We have to start with chemotherapy, like now. Like we might still have to do surgery. He said that, he prefaced that, but he's like, But right now we need to get we need to start the drugs to kill this thing. And I had a week to go to the dentist, do some other things, and have surgery to put a port in. They put the port in. And in my mind, I told I'd been completely then transparent with my work and told them everything. And I was like, I'm gonna work, I'm gonna be able to work through this. Like, you know, like I had one week of chemotherapy, which was so I had three cycles planned, which a cycle was Monday through Friday, eight-hour, eight-hour session, and then the next week would be a Monday, and then the next week would be a Monday, and I wouldn't have anything the rest of the thing. I was like, I'll work those weeks, like I don't have anything just to keep my mind off of it. I didn't make it to that first week, I was completely sick. I ended up in the ER and like basically called my boss. I was like, you're right, should have taken time off. I'm gonna take time off now. I'll see y'all when I see y'all. Like, give me whenever FMLA runs out. And yeah, I remember like having very, very tough conversations with with Carson and Rob Wilder, and just being like, I really want to I like I started running actually while I was going through chemotherapy, like three to four miles before chemo treatments. And you know, some mornings I'd wake up, I'd feel like a gazelle, and other mornings I was like, I I physically can barely get out of bed and just kind of forced myself in the car to go to go to chemotherapy. And running was completely different. Running was like a warm-up. It was like warming up for like a very tough race that I was about to endure. And yeah, did nine weeks of chemotherapy. The day after my last chemo treatment, I got a call like, hey, we're scheduling you body scan for the next next Wednesday or something like that. And I was like, that's really soon. We don't want to give chemo more time to like do his thing, you know. Like, like he's like, well, if we need to do another round, we need to know. Which would have been crazy because I'd already gotten a lifetime supply of two of the chemotherapies. So ended up going for the I like I'd started work immediately because I was like, I just don't want to sit here and do nothing. I can always go back on FMLA, and ended up doing the body scan, came home, and I wasn't even home like 10 minutes, and and like the hospital called, and I was like, no one gives you good news that fast. No one gives you good news that fast. And I was like, I was panicking, I was sweating, picked up the phone, and they're like, Hey, is this so and so? And I was like, Yeah, it is. They're like, Hey, we just got through test results, and we can't tell where the tumors are. The tumors are gone. Congratulations, you're now on remission. And I don't think she got the last words out before I just started like bawling my eyes out. And I said, Thank you, hung up the phone, called my called my dad. Then I like called my manager, and like my manager just sees me crying and is like, oh god, no. And I was like, No, no, it's good news, it's good news. Like, I'm cancer free. They the tumors they can't see them anymore. And I have a mini fridge behind me, and she was like, Adam, is there beer in that mini fridge? And she I was like, Yeah. She's like, You haven't drank in like three months. Just open it. And I like, it was two, it was like two o'clock in the afternoon, and I just I drank my beer and I was just like, it was honestly, that was probably the last time for real beer tasted good to me. It doesn't taste good to me anymore, but I just remember that August 4th of 2020, I was told I was cancer free, and that kind of started my journey to getting back into running again. And of course, it was six months of just very disappointment and trying to do what I used to do, and realizing that you know that chapter had to close for me to start living the life I want to live. So yeah, it was uh it was a very, very intense time, and and it's like that that year was hard for everyone, and like no one's no one's journey's any more difficult than anyone else's. And I I would stress that because people would be like, Oh, you had a really tough 2020. I was like, we all had a tough 2020, you know, like we all lost something. If you didn't lose something, like you were probably like less than one percent of the population. That was like very fortunate. So it's just you know, it's I was just very glad to be able to just uh have the community I have and like just be able to like come out the other side, like on top of it. And I I would say this, like without running, I don't I don't see needing that journey at all. Like I don't I don't see like all those years of just fighting to win and like everything that like I was taught from my high school coach to my college coach to Caldwell to to Carson, like all those things just were like in my mind of like this is a marathon that I'm in right now, and and there is no no choice but to win. There's like a famous quote that goes around like people who say winning isn't everything has never had a bout with cancer or like anything. Like you don't realize winning is is everything when you're like in that, and it's like that athletic mindset and that like competitive mindset, I think was a big factor for me being successful with that journey.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:48

Thank you so much for opening up and giving all those really gritty details, and I can't even imagine the fortitude and strength that you have is incredible. And even though yes, everybody did have difficulties during COVID, I think yours were yours were up there with probably the worst, the worst lot of the difficulties. But I mean, for it to be that advanced and have that kind of such a rigorous chemo and but I mean you were it was gone April to August. I mean, some people are dealing with it for years, decades. So I mean that's pretty incredible.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:31

Yeah, a lot of like like and there's something I didn't know is like there are some cancers that are super super treatable, like super treatable, like like and that's kind of what my oncologist said. He's like, if you reach your hand in a basket of team of cancers to get, you got one of the good ones. He's like, and I was like, interesting phrasing, but okay. But like, yeah, it's just like there is no stage four. Like it becomes stage four if it gets to another organ. So that's what people like when you hear about Lanson getting to his lungs and his brain, it was just like his metastasized so fast and stuff like that. And that's what that's what that's what kills you with with like thinking treatable cancers is like allowing it to get to a point where it's not treatable anymore, or it's so advanced that like the treatments last forever. So I I guess in some ways, like I owe my cat a lot. So I know a lot of people probably like, oh, there's a lot of dog, dog lovers that that are runners and stuff like that. But I was like, man, like I I will forever have a cat in my life just because of that situation.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:34

I hear that.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:36

Uh so yeah. He's a turd, but he's he's my turd. So uh but like so, yeah, it's uh it's it's it was you know, it in some ways it took me a long time to realize like and the curse was also a blessing in the sense of like going through it, definitely taught me like so much. more of a there's a big picture and like especially with not only just like life but with running too there's a bigger picture and I I started giving back to running after that like more so it wasn't about me I I did a little bit more of the ball I did more volunteering after it with with upstate up until about a year and a half ago and then took a step back just to focus on life because it's just it's tough to balance like a personal life work trying to do running or cycling recreationally and then volunteering seven hours a week sometimes more when when we go to races and whatnot. So like I was very grateful for the time that I that Carson allowed me to be around the the the guys and and the and the women and like I learned probably more from them than than at times than they did from me. It was also very cool to just see see just people progress and like following their journey it it it it made you realize like I think our coaches had more fun than we did at times. So I just like seeing athletes perform. But you also you you I think you feel their disappointment sometimes more than they do. And that's something I just didn't realize is like man like when I had a bad race I don't really know if my college coach was mad at me as much as like he was just like he just didn't know what to do with like that disappointment that I also felt so it's just yeah it's it was it's it's very cool to be on the other side of of the sport now and to be in a different segment of the sport too at the same time and it's almost like you get that like childhood kind of like excitement about it. Like you get to it's like opening a present you know you know you you don't know what's inside so you get to get to figure it out. But yeah it's it's it's it's it's I'm I'm really happy to be where I'm at now with the sport. Obviously like there are some boxes that will never get checked and it took a while to come to terms with that but like I'm okay with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:19

And it's it's been a very like it's very cool to see like my friends check those boxes on their behalves and in some way living vicariously through their achievements and as well as like my athletes doing that too or my former athletes since I stepped away but yeah so it's uh it's been uh it's been good I'm I'm very grateful to be where I'm at I'm grateful that you are where you're at too I'm grateful for your cat the cat made the yeah very grateful for your cat.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:51

He's the MVP right now in the household so you probably got more speed than I do in my legs these days.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:58

So if you're going out and grinding mountainous terrain like lots and lots of miles then that's probably where the speed went it's so hard to try and rekindle that if you put a lot a lot of miles on your legs with that kind of terrain but I think you have such an actual ability like you just dedicated some time to speed if you wanted to I think you can get it back you know and with the drills too like definitely don't think it's like oh I'm getting old the flexibility mobility you if you don't use it you lose it but you can get it back so yeah you can always hope. But thank you so much for your time.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:36

Oh thank you for having me this is great.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:38

I it's nice to catch up and you have so much knowledge obviously in running you've been doing it such a long time and yeah just thanks for being vulnerable with your cancer journey you know like like I said I'm so glad you're still here you know like for sure. But thanks a lot.