The Science of Fitness Podcast
Welcome to the Science Of Fitness podcast where we aim to inspire you to live a healthier and more fulfilling life as we share evidence and anecdotes on all things health, fitness, performance, wellness and business.
Hosted by Kieran Maguire, Co-Owner and Director of Science Of Fitness with an Undergraduate degree in Exercise Science and Masters degree in High Performance, the podcast includes guests and friends of SOF from all walks of life sharing their knowledge and stories within their field of expertise.
Join us as we provide listeners with digestible and relatable educational tools and entertaining stories to inspire a healthier and more fulfilling life.
The Science of Fitness Podcast
S2 EP 017 - Hard work is the backbone of Australian sport w/ Charlotte Caslick, Aussie 7's Captain and Olympic Gold Medalist
Can early sporting experiences shape future champions? Discover how Charlotte Caslick's journey from touch football to Rugby Sevens Olympic stardom was sparked by the 2000 Olympics and fuelled by her supportive family and school environment. In this episode, Charlotte shares how her multi-sport background and initial aspirations in social work formed a foundation that would eventually lead her to a professional rugby career. Her story is a testament to the transformational power of sports, perseverance, and community.
Charlotte discusses the importance of cross-training and how playing various sports like hockey and cricket enhanced her vision, coordination, and reflexes. She also sheds light on why watching full games is crucial for understanding strategic complexities and how evolving roles within a team requires robust communication and collaboration.
In today's episode we cover
- Building team unity amongst elite athletes
- Staying composed during high-stakes moments
- Resilience and team environment in the Australian Rugby Sevens programs
- The importance of a strong aerobic base in training
- The life skills gained through sport and the promising future of women's rugby in Australia and abroad
Welcome to the Science of Fitness podcast, where we aim to inspire you to live a healthier and more fulfilling life, as we share evidence and anecdotes on all things relating to health, fitness, performance, business and wellness. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to the Science of Fitness podcast. We have Rugby Sevens extraordinaire Charlotte Kaslick probably one of the goats in the sevens world on the episode today and we're incredibly excited, Charlotte, welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:And thank you so much for your time. You've had a relationship with soft for a long time. You've obviously known the boys since high school and we've talked about this in terms of getting you on the episode and being able to share, I guess, your story because it's a pretty unique one and I think it needs to be said from the outset you've really paved the way, I think, for a lot of female athletes, particularly in a male, traditionally male dominant sport, to put the female program on the map and have something for female athletes to aspire towards. So I'm really excited to get into how and why and who the person is that has got, I guess, women's rugby and sevens particularly to this point. So, if we go back to the beginning footy, why footy? How did you get into it? What was it that let you up and where did it all sort of start for you.
Speaker 2:I think for me. Obviously I played a lot of sports growing up, like I think every kid in Australia does. I played hockey since I was five. That was around the time that the Hockey Roos won the gold medal in 2000 Olympics. So like wanted to be a Hockey Roo, loved Nicky Hudson, thought they were the best ever Started athletics as well around that time and I was very good at athletics for primary school and the start of high school but I got extremely nervous um.
Speaker 2:And then I also was playing touch football at the time which was probably my favorite out of all the sports I was doing. Um. I loved the team part of it. I loved, I think, just footy in general. I had two older brothers so I also probably grew up playing a little bit in the backyard. Um. And then also going to a school like Brisbane State. Hyatt obviously had a great rugby program at the time that I was going through for the boys, not the girls, but I was sort of I got to witness boys playing footy at that standard during high school and whatever. Um.
Speaker 2:And then I think in 09, rugby got introduced into the Olympic Games. So from then on, rugby Australia went on this path of creating opportunities for girls from other sports to cross over. And I received a letter after a touch football tournament to come and just try it out, see if I liked it. And I guess at that point I'd probably chosen touch as like my sport, which meant I'd given away my Olympic dreams and I was just set on a path of playing New Zealand and that was all I was going to do. And then, yeah, rugby being introduced into the Olympics I guess reignited that Olympic dream for me and opened that opportunity up again to play a global sport. And also, yeah, get to the Olympics, commonwealth Games, rugby, world Cups Just the opportunities it had were so much greater to offer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what were you going to do if it was just a social touch footy, maybe play at a really high competitive level? What was the career going to be then I was going to have to? It was just a social touch footy, maybe play at a, you know, really high competitive level.
Speaker 2:What was the career going to be then? I was gonna have to get a job, um, like a real job, I guess what did you want to do?
Speaker 2:um, I actually did some study as in social work for like a semester and then I got my contract with rugby australia deferred and haven't been back yeah right, um, but I think at that time I would have loved to use sport as a way to help kids in challenging circumstances, yeah, reconnect with community and just open opportunities for them, even via social sports. I think, obviously, being a sporty kid and the opportunities I was so lucky to get through my school, my parents, I just always wanted every kid to have the same chance as what I had because, yeah, I've just been so fortunate to have such supportive networks around me my whole life and so many kids don't get that. So, yeah, 17 year old Charlotte would have loved to work in that space and I think when I finished rugby, I'd love to, would have loved to work in that space and I think, when I finish rugby, I'd love to make some sort of change in that area too yeah, cool.
Speaker 1:it's, um, as you said, just so lucky if you do get that opportunity to step into sports, particularly team sport, but any sport in general, and what it can do less the the physical but just the social, psychological fit in learn things in life that I guess are going to happen anyway at some point as an adult. You're going to lose sometimes and you're going to win and you're going to have to work with people and you're going to have to be gracious in defeat and victory and all those sorts of things. So yeah, obviously sport's been a big part of your life, with all of that Competing with brothers and that sort of thing. How has all of that and how much of that has shaped not only the athlete but the person you are today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think having older brothers it's toughened me out for sure. Like my oldest brother is three years older than me. Then we've got my middle brother, who's only 18 months older, so we're very close in age. Um, so, like I always wanted to be doing what they were doing and, um, yeah, just like getting into their games with their friends and um, dad always sort of encouraged it but was like, if I end up crying, he was like, well, you wanted to play with them. So, um, yeah, definitely toughened me up a bit.
Speaker 2:Um, but I think as a footy player, it probably because we played so much as kids just in the backyard or after like post footy training and whatever um, I think it created, like this, instincts within me that made me like a really instinctual footy player.
Speaker 2:So I think, in comparison to kids that don't grow up and don't have that play aspect as part of their training, they probably are a bit more robotic in the way that they play, whereas I like to think that I'm quite instinctive and things come really naturally to me and I can count numbers really quickly on fields and all that sort of stuff. That I think I developed more just by playing in the backyard than I did, I guess, in a structured environment. But then, yeah, as a person, I think it's sort of just made me resilient, more than anything, having brothers as well. I've had to be like a strong communicator, otherwise they just walk all over me. So, um, I think that's definitely helped with my footy as well and, um, just the ability to kind of get on with things and just, yeah, keep going. Um, I think you learn a lot of that, that, especially in sports like rugby yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:there's lots there. From a high performance perspective, let's sort of lean into that, as you mentioned, you know, coming from the regimented high performance program, I've worked in them, I've seen them and it is, to an extent, my biggest criticism of them is, if you're worrying about GPS data, executing a really good movement in the gym, technically having a pass that looks like X and you know, all those little structure, structure, structure, structure, structure. Get on the field and be creative, problem solved. No two moments are the same on the footy field or for any sport. Even a 100-meter sprint at the athletics like, the temperature's going to be different, the crowd's going to be different, the athlete next year's maybe going to be doing something you can't train for that there's always that element of adaptability that's required and instinctive, natural, athletic, instinctive nature. If you were to sort of consider everything you've seen in a high performance perspective, is that something that has come into high performance programs or is it something that needs to be introduced? Is that you know? What have you seen in your experience in that sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think Sevens probably has like a relatively good balance, because the nature of the game is a lot more like not as structured as the 15-a-side code and definitely not as structured as Rugby League or anything like that.
Speaker 2:So, like, we do do a fair few games that revolve around sort of just mucking around and playing, but I still don't think we do it enough.
Speaker 2:Because, yeah, you're right, we'll spend two hours in the gym some days and the girls get so into it and they love it and they compete with each other and it's awesome that they're these amazing, strong athletes and whatever, but it's not going to make the catch ball better, it's not going to be able to make you see pictures and, um, we probably don't invest enough time in watching footy. Um, sort of just having, yeah, problem solving on the field, um, and just being able to read numbers is like a massive thing. That I've noticed, especially with kids coming through now, because everything they've been told is you work in your threes, you go to this rock and then you go here and you're doing that instead of just feeling and, like you know, like you don't have to always go to ground, we can look to play, like offload the ball and whatever. So, yeah, I feel like it does when you get into the high performance. It's so many great things about it in terms of injury resilience, like we're faster, we're stronger, we're fitter.
Speaker 2:But yeah, you do kind of lose that time in the day where you can just play games. But our coach Walshie, he is quite good around like. He's a kid at heart, so he like loves games himself, so he does try and create spaces where we are playing, whether it's like dodgeball, soccer, indoor soccer and basketball and all of those games that are like. Obviously you can take some sort of aspects and bring it to rugby, but they're not rugby based.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it gets you thinking right. It gets you thinking in that different play and those three-dimensional games, particularly like a basketball or a soccer or football. It's a really important thing, I think, for rugby players and I remember being younger and all the, all the guys that would come and play rugby with us.
Speaker 1:coming from football they'd hate the contact, but ball in hand they would see everything yeah you're like how, but they're just so used to looking in that sort of 3d map rather than I pass backwards and I run forwards and that's it. It's just so linear, which is a very interesting thing to consider. So, yeah, I guess, for those younger athletes that are coming through, particularly those aspiring to make it in the rugby, in particularly the sevens world, what would you encourage them to do? Obviously, the high-performance thing is going to get thrown in their face from coaching and programs, development programs Outside of that. You mentioned watching more footy. What else would you say that maybe younger athlete or aspiring athlete should be doing to improve that instinctive performance sort of nature that you're talking about?
Speaker 2:I think it is playing different sports. You kind of at this, like these days you'd be 14 and they're like in the whatever academy and you're already doing all of this stuff and you're not allowed to play these other sports and, um, like, I think for me playing hockey growing up like that's a 3d.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like you've got the whole field.
Speaker 2:So, like my vision and everything I would have developed so much just from playing that my hand-eye coordination, um.
Speaker 2:Sports like cricket think are so important for kids to play, especially whether that's in the backyard or for a team, I don't think it matters, it's just so great for your hand-eye skills and reflexes and there's so much you can take from those sports and bring them across into what you choose to do when you're older. But yeah, I think it's not just like pigeonholing yourself into a sport at the age of 14, 15 and then getting caught up in like needing to be the best athlete because you still want to be in like my world. You still want to be a good footy player too. Yeah, like there is room for great athletes and there always will be. But I think everyone, when you watch the sport, remembers the ones that were the good footy players, like Jonathan Thurston and guys like that that I'm sure they weren't athletically the best or always, you know, winning in the gym and whatever, but they were probably the most competitive and they were always skillful and had like great vision.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's really interesting. It's something that I, having worked in, you know, the club rugby scene here for a long time. None of the guys are watching rugby, which is a big problem, and you can see it in the way they play, because rugby union and that's both 15s and sevens, 15s even more so it's a game of chess, particularly the higher level you get. You can't give it to the big kid or the fast kid to run around everybody. It's so competitive and the margin for error is minute. So you've got to play it like chess, and 7s at the highest level would be the same thing, where you're going side to side or whatever strategically you're doing. But if you're not watching the game enough and even thinking critically of how and where and what and all those pictures you're talking about, it's probably going to be very hard to be competitive compared to a player that does look at the bigger picture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like there's obviously so much you can do on field, but then there's so much training you can do away from the field, which I think is just as important, whether that's like sitting down watching you know a couple of NRL games, like obviously it's not the same sport, but you still learn from it and you're still watching, and like you're um, yeah, you're just like picking up on little things that players are doing and um, like if I was playing 15s, like you'd want to be watching all over the world too, not just like watching the super rugby in Australia, like I think it'd be so important for them to be watching all of the European leagues, and like there's so much footy to watch that yeah, I think it's not that hard to put it on the TV, and like you don't even have to fully pay attention, but you're definitely going to be soaking something in.
Speaker 1:Something in and then considering it, and it's not even watching the 20-minute little highlight recap. It's watching the game for the game. Who cares about the tries? Let's see the complexity with it In terms of that sort of development and working with athletes and teams, like we were just speaking about it, before going into being an individual that has to contribute to you know, a team getting better and encouraging fellow teammates to maybe go outside of the training, watch and learn and develop. How has that evolved in, particularly the women's program that you've been in in terms of you came in At some point. You were a young person that I'm just going to shut up, listen and do what I'm told because there's so many senior, better players than me. How did that change for you? And now, what do you see your role within the squad that you're working with from a personal? How can I contribute to this program perspective?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, as I've gotten older, because I like I'm a bit of a rugby nerd, so I like genuinely love it and like I see the game differently to a lot of them.
Speaker 2:So I love to sit down with a lot of the girls and, whether it's before we play or after training, and we'll go through things and like really simple cues and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:But I watch a lot of footage sitting down beside them and just asking them, like what are you seeing? Because, like, obviously it frustrates me that you're not seeing what I'm seeing, but like maybe I'm missing something completely and I don't know, unless you tell me. So, like, if I'm asking them to do something and they're like seeing a completely different picture, like how can they do what I want them to do? So I think, just having those conversations with them and trying to get them to tell me what they're seeing so I can understand better, or like maybe they just have a better idea and, um, like we can do it completely different and do it their way, um, or they see what I'm seeing and then, but if you don't talk to each other about it and if you don't sit down together and watch it together, like you can sometimes have two completely views and like complete.
Speaker 2:like what they saw at training versus what I saw was just like two different things. So every conversation you have is just like you never, I guess, reach the same page, but if you sit down together and watch it, um, you can kind of go through it play by play and, um, I think that's been like a massive thing, because when I was younger, I used to just get so frustrated that people couldn't see things as fast as what I was seeing them and I couldn't understand why they couldn't do what I wanted them to do. So I think, yeah, my patience and tolerance has grown as I've gotten older and I just spend way more time with the girls, talking to them and watching with them. But yeah, I think we were like we were talking about it earlier If you don't say, like, how you're feeling or what you're seeing, it's so hard for someone else to like we can't read your mind, so we just don't know.
Speaker 2:So, like, encouraging the girls to always speak up and share their opinions and I guess their views on whether how we're playing or whatever we're doing within the team is so important. So I guess, yeah, just empowering the younger girls to always like, find a voice and use it because people can't read their mind.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and this is. It's one of those brilliant, brilliant things about sport and how it relates to everything, and it's from running an organization to having staff and a business. If communication is broken down or if it's not happening, people don't know and feel like they don't know what's going on. It's like ships in the night and, yeah, there might be 10 degrees apart at the start, but add on six months, they're in a complete different position and then you try and come together and communicate and it's just a shambles. So doing it early on, building the skills as a young athlete or a young practitioner, is really important. It's the same as a relationship. Communicating effectively in a relationship makes the relationship work. So it's just one of those brilliant things.
Speaker 1:And sport is just so black and white. You either win or you lose, and the teams that tend to have all these little things in place and problems solved communication wise tend to get better results in terms of sort of finding that voice, because then there's that second part of it which is everyone's talking and everyone's got an opinion, and it sort of becomes redundant. How do you filter all of that? Because obviously you want everyone to feel like they can say something and to be heard and to contribute. At what point do you kind of filter that out and then come up with a solution to whatever problem you're trying to solve? Sport-wise.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I feel like some training reviews, like you'll have five different people saying like five different things and then you finish the discussion and you're like so where did we land? Like we don't even have a solution yet. So while I've been captain, it's sort of like at the end of every discussion that we have as a group, you have to kind of leave the room with a solution and we're not leaving there still asking the same questions that we came in with. But I think it's yeah, I guess even like if you're not involved in that play or like whatever happened, sometimes it's best just not to say something because it does just cloud people's judgment and just makes noise that isn't always necessary judgment and just makes noise that isn't always necessary. And like creating issues that aren't issues or just saying things for the sake of saying things sometimes does become an issue.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I think it's more just making sure that after every discussion you have a solution and you walk out of that room with the problem solved, have a solution and you walk out of that room with the problem solved, um, like so, for example, if it's around like a defensive, defensive system, um, like we've had so many conversations, whether we press or if we just like hold and just have like a really passive defense line, and then you can have the conversation the next day and people still don't know the answer. So like, clearly you didn't, we didn't get to the point that we needed to the day before. So yeah, just making sure that everyone leaves on the same page.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I don't know, sometimes it takes a while to get there, Sometimes it takes two minutes, but just making sure you spend the time to leave the conversation and the room with a solution.
Speaker 1:It's funny because you can see the teams that do. Yeah, Just the success of the Springbok rugby team of late and the documentary that's out, the Chasing the Sun documentary. Is it the coaching staff? Is it the players? Is it a combination? It probably is the latter and it's. They're all on the same page, or at least it looks like that 99% of the time, and particularly in their defensive structures it's a hard press and they've got that sort of sweeping cross behind them sort of thing and it's incredible when it works. And then it's incredible watching teams that aren't on the same page. The Wallaby game on the weekend against the All Blacks first half they defensively weren't on the same page and it was embarrassing. The bench obviously saw that, went in at halftime, problem solved, came on and the game changed entirely. How often and what are some of your favourite experiences where you guys have observed that on the fly, come together, communicated, agreed and then gone and solved that problem, be it both defensive and attack on the field in tournaments? What sort of stands out in your mind?
Speaker 2:There's probably one against Fiji and Hong Kong this season. I think it was maybe like 19-0 after a couple of minutes to Fiji, wow. And we all sort of like, yeah, regrouped, got behind the in sevens. You can't really go behind the post, you don't have enough time.
Speaker 2:But, sort of met, like somewhere on the 10 meter line before the next restart, and we were just kind of like, let's just focus on the next job. Like we know we're good enough to get ourselves back in this game, but we hadn't had the ball. So it was just like focus on this next restart, play our exit strategy, and then we'll go from there and just like build our way back into the game. But it was just that moment of just like refocusing, getting clarity around. I guess our restart positioning was probably slightly off and yeah, we ended up winning the game, so it was fine.
Speaker 2:But like, yeah, it's just sort of like those moments where you just have to be like okay, let's just have two seconds to just all come together, because in sevens it can become chaos, and like if you're almost trying too hard it just makes it worse. So you just have to kind of like go back to being composed and yeah, so we kind of just all came together. We're like, okay, next restart, exit, and I think we must have scored like probably off that restart, and then you kind of feel a bit more comfortable and momentum shifts back in your favor.
Speaker 1:Because it's such a big thing and again, not just in sport, in work, in life, in anything that if you want to get in the direction you've got to get momentum and you can have things go against you. If you could bottle that up or sort of put it in a pill, it'd be probably one of the most valuable things. But I guess what comes to mind or what do you think of, or maybe what tools do you use in those moments? Because 19 nil down after a couple of minutes in a sevens game, when you've only got 14 minutes to actually get points on the board, can be completely overwhelming. You've got a lot of experience. You've probably been in those positions multiple times as a young athlete, now as a senior leader in the team. What are your go-tos, Like you know everybody in here what are you saying? What are you feeling? What are you looking for in terms of that communication moment to grab on and get momentum back in your favor?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's sort of just like for that one it was. If you're not all on the same page, and like you're, but everyone's trying so hard, everyone's desperate, they're trying to do what they can to get the ball back or whatever, sometimes you can like your defensive line becomes disjointed because someone's trying to put on like a massive hit to make a difference. But it's like the little things that you do for each other that probably matter more. So just like making sure you stay true to the systems and the processes that we have because we know that they work, and not kind of going outside of that because your teammates need you to do what the team system is at times, um like, obviously there's moments where individual brilliance and plays come off and whatever.
Speaker 1:But they happen off the back of stability.
Speaker 2:You know like good dominant tackles result in turnovers, so it's just sort of making sure everyone stays on that same page and doesn't get too chaotic in their thought process around wanting to be the individual that makes a difference, like will make a difference as a team, if we just stay united and strong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's very cool. And then you know, in a training in a, I suppose, hyper-competitive environment, you've got competitive people on your team, all around you, all wanting the best outcome and having people on the same page. I suppose first knowing that is really important in terms of managing that. And managing we spoke about energy before in the sense of the vibe that we're looking forward to training and playing with each other. You may not be best mates with everyone on the team. In fact it's going to be really hard. We can put all that aside as you've developed as a, an athlete, and then as an individual, what sort of stands out? And then how do you identify that? And then again, as a team, how are you guys addressing that? Because, let's be honest, the most I suppose highest performing rugby program in this country is the aussie women's sevens team. You guys have done something special consistently for a long time and and you know what's happening in that program to make it so good and why does it work so well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, like we obviously do have a really competitive group of girls and, um, our head coach, while she and I have so many discussions all of the time, and a lot of the time we don't agree on much and like we have these discussions but like every time, you know, we leave that discussion, we're on the same page and whether it's my idea or his idea or it doesn't matter, we're just both buying into the same thing and sending that same message message out to the girls, because I feel like if one of us doesn't believe in each other, you can see that within the group.
Speaker 2:Um, and it's hard to try and encourage people to believe in themselves if you're not even believing what you're trying to tell them.
Speaker 2:Um, and then I think, like our program's just been like we're lucky, we've got some of probably the best football athletes in the country, we've had great staff for a really long period of time as well, and I think the girls genuinely do love what they do and they love coming to work every single day, and we do slip into the excuses around energy and it's not fun and whatever, but high performance isn't always going to be fun and we in the last couple of years, have tried to create a culture that is around like hard work is the backbone of this country.
Speaker 2:It's the backbone of what so many people have done in Australia since it has become Australia and it's, yeah, like it should be. Something that we're proud of is to work hard, and if you're working hard for the girl next to you and you know that you're working just as hard back for her, we're always going to get good results because, yeah, you've got like a cause that you're working for and we have a common goal that brings everyone together. Even if we're not best friends or if there's other things going on in your life, you have this one common goal that you're trying to achieve together and if everyone buys into that cause, usually you're successful.
Speaker 1:You give me goosebumps, charlotte, it's. I've never, I've always had this. What do I want to say? Like criticism of almost Australian sport to a certain extent, particularly of late. How do you compete against a South African rugby team or?
Speaker 1:you know you name it nations that have a much harder time day to day. You know, and they've done it in that Chasing the Sun documentary and I keep referring to the Springboks because I'm a Springbok fan but Rusty's got this message around the team where he stands up and says life is hard. You are here as an athlete, you are the luckiest of the lucky persons in this country. None of you have any right to be here when you go on the averages and so stand up and represent all those people that didn't get the opportunity to get here and like how are you competing with that? And I've always wondered what is the message in Australia? Where's the identity? The Kiwis, the All Blacks have the haka, they have the Maori sort of traditions and the whole nation gets to embrace that.
Speaker 1:But you've just said it Hard work. Like Australia is built off the backbone of getting out in the country. I think of like hot sheep shearing hard work. The tradies that are Australia, like that is this country. So I've never heard someone pull that identity and actually say this is what it is.
Speaker 1:But there you guys are and that explains this program, if that's what you've been standing on to connect everybody, no matter what culture, friendships, relationships, whatever it might be. It makes so much sense. I like that so much. Everybody needs to hear this. The whole Rugby Australia program needs that. So within that and then, I guess, leaning on that solid base that you guys have, you obviously have your review systems and a very strong dialogue in and amongst the team in terms of problem solving and that sort of thing. You've come off the Olympics, where everybody wants to have a go at you guys for losing one game in one situation, which you know we've chatted about. You didn't have the ball, you know little moments. How have you guys managed that as a squad, as a group, you're going into a whole new season. How do you bounce back from that and what are you guys doing for it?
Speaker 2:yeah, we had a big review and, um, we all sort of like everyone just got to get whatever they needed off their chest and have these conversations and people have different views on like how everything plays out and, um, it's so hard not to let one moment cloud like a whole season.
Speaker 1:That was really great because the season was great. Our season was amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like we had an incredible season. Um, I think we lost like I don't even know, like five games or something all year and how many games did you play roughly in an olympic year? Um, and how many games did you play roughly?
Speaker 1:in an Olympic year, Um God like 40. Yeah, so you've lost five games out of 40.
Speaker 2:Like 46 or I don't know something like that Like. And then, if you even go back, like longer than that, in the last three year cycle since the Tokyo Olympics, like we won the Commonwealth games, the Rugby World Cup Sevens, and like almost every major tournament that we'd set out to win, we'd achieved it. So, like our last, yeah, four-year journey into this Olympics has been incredible, but it's so hard not to let that one game and that one moment just make you so depressed about everything, um, and I think that's just like probably human nature, like it's so hard for us. So you work towards this one goal and everything else sort of felt like it didn't matter, it was like only we, that was all we wanted. Um, but in reflection, I think, when you get to a point of like accepting that you can't change what happened, you can reflect and see the experience for what it was and know that there was some really enjoyable moments, I guess at that time.
Speaker 1:And you don't need to throw everything you've done out. No For one result.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think Nico Hines actually might have said something after the game Like he's not defined by 80 minutes of footy and like it's the same for us, like we're not defined by one moment. The legacy that this group of girls in particular will leave on Australian rugby isn't defined by that moment. And I guess for us the biggest shame is that the Olympics is almost like Rugby 7's one chance every four years to show Australians how great our team is, because we obviously play in like terrible time zones. We don't often play in Australia. It's so hard to get Australians viewing our sport.
Speaker 2:So like theics is like our one time to really make our mark and everyone's watching and the support we were receiving was amazing, like even, um, still, like everyone says how much they love watching us play and that happens every olympic cycle, like we still receive that same support. But I think the like, yeah, as a group we did feel like we really let Australian rugby down and like the country down in the sense that like it was like our one time to just show, um, yeah, like what this group is capable of and like how great they are. Like they've got we've got some amazing young girls and young footballers in that squad that deserved better, but it's sport, it's why we love it. Um, and they're gonna keep on going and I'm sure most of them will be there in la, hopefully having a better result. But again, like that's not guaranteed, but the journey to get there is a special part and like we need a not lose side of that's yeah where all the?
Speaker 2:memories and the good stuff is made.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's probably a key lesson for not only the athletes but even people supporting is. It's one moment, it's so brief, it's a sliding door, but underneath all that, what's the foundation? And do you still trust in that process? And if you do, go forth with it and carry on, if you were to problem solve not necessarily the game, but I suppose the result down to one lesson, is there anything that really stood out for you guys, or upon review and that sort of thing?
Speaker 2:I think we sort of spoke around like finals footy. Sometimes it's just different to um pool game footy. For us, um, so like the way that we play, like our I guess identity as a team, is like we play fast, we want to run teams off their feet. Um, we're not as big as a lot of the other countries, but where we think we're fitter, um, yeah, we've got like extremely fast girls on our edges. So we want to like move the ball. And against Canada we were up 12-0 and we kept quick tapping, kept quick tapping and I think like it might have even been halftime, but we just kept playing, kept playing, and everyone's like mindset was like 19-0, like this game's probably iced at halftime, but we didn't execute. Turn the ball over's probably iced at halftime, um, but we didn't execute. Turn the ball over they score at halftime and the momentum shifted and then we got the ball for I think five seconds in the second half, dropped it and never saw it again.
Speaker 2:Wow, um, so like so fragile yeah like in reflection, like maybe we slow it down um go to halftime, play a bit safer and sort of just play that.
Speaker 1:Recognize that it's a final.
Speaker 2:It's a final, like you don't have the chance to lose that momentum. So I think that's probably like our biggest lesson from that moment and that's where it stops. Sometimes it's just like, but then again, like you know, like we've had this philosophy around the way that we play, and if we? Score. That's how we play and that's what we do.
Speaker 1:It's hard to say, isn't it?
Speaker 2:These moments yeah, that, I think, finals footy. Sometimes you do have to maybe play slightly different. I guess when you're watching at the Rugby World Cup and people just keep taking points and you're like oh my God, why, like, can we just play some footy?
Speaker 1:But like that's why, yeah, that's why, yeah, it's you know how many World Cup finals were won within three?
Speaker 2:points there, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1:So interesting. So let's go to the you mentioned identity-wise. You guys back your fitness and back your sort of high performance. Speaking about yourself personally, how have you seen that evolve um coming into the program 10 years ago, 11 years ago?
Speaker 2:now, yeah, I think it sort of depends on, like, who your head of performance is. So we have, like, each head of performance has a slightly different philosophy around the way that they train.
Speaker 1:Does that have a lot to do with your team's identity and the way you play?
Speaker 2:At times. I think like we've always probably had like the mindset around playing fast and being fit, because we've never been as big as the other teams, so that's always had to be part of our team identity. But I think like, as obviously these girls are coming through and they're starting to train a lot earlier, they're a lot more powerful than we were when I started, when I was 18 years old like they're completely different athletes to what we had back then. So we probably have moved into more of a power speed team as well. But, yeah, I think the head of performance definitely like drives the key aspects of each thing. But I think being fit is always, I guess, playing sevens. I don't think you can ever be fit enough. So it's always sort of like the yeah, it's always in the background, like you're always sort of it's always hard and you're always running heaps, no matter who's in charge.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. What have you learnt physically about your body, managing injuries, keeping your fitness up, handling, running load as you've gotten older as an athlete? Has anything changed? How's that evolved for you?
Speaker 2:um, I think for me personally and I I think it would be the case for most female athletes um the better my like running base is, like my aerobic capacity and my general running base, like the faster I end up running. When we go into that like more speed focused part of training, but like if I just go straight into doing you know like short reps and the high speed running without the base, I just feel like I never quite get to my best. So I've always, yeah, had like I don't know if that's because I've grown up doing a lot of running, but I've always sort of like had this philosophy around just making sure I've got like kilometres in my legs first and then you kind of like fine tune the closer you get to playing, but you can't do that without the base.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Have you had seasons where you have tried to do it differently and it hasn't worked out?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, definitely Like going into that like shorter blocks of training and whatever else. We've definitely tried that. I think pre-Tokyo we were kind of more that power speed and shorter running focus for that period of time and it was also for the back of COVID which didn't help, and yeah, I just like felt completely different to when I have that stronger aerobic base.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I mean exercise and sports. Science wise, it makes a lot of sense. You know you got to build an engine first before you really try and fine tune it and make it fast. Yeah, from a strength, power and resilience, injury prevention sense. How's that evolved for you and what do you do to take care of yourself? You know what have you learned coming through multiple performance coaches? What stands out for you?
Speaker 2:I think core strength I think that's probably like a big one in female athletes is our core strength. I think that's probably like a big one in female athletes is our core strength. So I do almost like two or three extra sessions with our physio. That's purely on core, so she'll just spend. Yeah, I don't know. It usually takes like half an hour at the end of a gym session where it's just like pure core, and is that right down to like pelvic floor?
Speaker 2:yeah, all the way out yeah, it's like very broad and like it kind of depends on the day, depends on how I'm feeling and, um, some of it's like even like around, like thoracic rotation, and that control, um, and being able to like stabilize my hips and all of that sort of stuff, which I think is obviously injury prevention. So I think, yeah, that's as I've gotten older, that's been a key part of what I do, and then as a group we do a lot of jumping, a lot of plyos, and I think that's also been great for our injury prevention sort of areas and just making sure that you feel stable and you can, you know you can yeah explosive movements.
Speaker 2:You have the confidence to really be able to generate force, yeah, and like I'm the way I play, like I love stepping and um, I put a lot of force through my joints, so I think I've got to train them to be resilient enough to be able to cope yeah, makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1:okay, and then moving away from footy for you as a person, the standout, I guess, personal things that you've learned through sport, working in teams really black and white, outcomes, solving problems, multiple personalities what are the big things that you're going to take away with you once you know footy career is done and you want to move forward into the next step of your life?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, like, obviously, communication has probably been the biggest one. I've always been a good communicator, but even now, like I'm going to like this next season, I'm going to like this next season, I'm going to be the oldest by like quite a bit, and being able to communicate with people from all different generations is really hard, but it's really important and you have to be like, patient and often, I guess, self-reflect on how you communicate and like, if people aren't understanding, asking yourself if you're explaining it enough. So that's something that I think I'm. Yeah, as I've gotten older, I've gotten better at communicating, but I think I've always been quite a good communicator, probably just purely because I'm confident.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to say what makes good communication for you.
Speaker 2:I think I'm just confident and like, I believe in what I say and I would never ask them to do something I wouldn't do myself.
Speaker 2:So, I think I can always have the confidence to know that, like I'm always giving it my everything, I'm always doing my best. So, like all I expect of them is to do their best, and I think you can say things with confidence and you can preach something with confidence if you know that you are also doing it. Um, so I think that's a massive one that I'll take out of it. And I think, just like, having that sense of community when you leave, rugby is going to be so important for me, and I would love to always, I guess, make sure that I have a community, whether that's at a gym or if I'm working out rurally. Like you have people and you have a network that you can surround yourself with. That brings out the best in you.
Speaker 2:I think that's what we're so lucky to have in high performance team sports is that you're every day you're surrounded by high achievers. So you're always, like, pushed to your limits and you're always forced to bring the best version of yourself, otherwise you get left behind. So I think making sure that you kind of I'm always challenging myself will be another key part of what I want to take away from it, and then I think it's probably just made me resilient, so I hope for the rest of my life. I just it's been like deeply inground within me, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just a bit of resilience.
Speaker 1:Just keep turning up. Yeah, Fantastic In terms of, I guess, where you would love to see women's sevens, women's rugby, women's sport in general go in the next five, 10, 15 years. What does that sort of look like, Whether you're involved or not? What do you hope for?
Speaker 2:I would obviously like. Sevens is my favourite, so I would love sevens to keep thriving and I hope that young girls like, because sevens is so hard that sometimes it's daunting and it's challenging and it's just so hard that it's easy to turn away from. So I hope that as other codes develop, like girls, just give it a crack and just embrace the hard work and embrace like the challenges it'll throw at you, because the opportunities that they get from doing that are so much greater.
Speaker 1:And it's one of those unique sports you get to travel the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you get so much out of it. And the travel. I guess the global game is just something that rugby offers that no other sport in Australia currently can give girls. So, yeah, I hope that girls continue to embrace sevens and thrive. I'd love to see the 15s game also start to develop and grow. We're obviously struggling a fair bit there, but if we can cross over the athletes between sevens and 15s, I think that would help a lot.
Speaker 1:Massively. Yeah, that's a big thing that I like to stand on. Yeah, a lot of the best, at least in the men's game, a lot of the best athletes have come from sevens. Yeah, and you look at everything from Artie Savia and Rico Ioane and the All Blacks team to some of the guys in the Springboks team and even some of Australia's best who aren't playing for Australia right now. Shaw Australia right now. Shawnee McMahon comes to mind, yeah, like he found himself in sevens and what it does for you as a rugby player is irreplaceable at the 15s level because your output is just so much higher. You're so used to it.
Speaker 2:And like every skill on a rugby field in sevens is obviously like amplified, like the pressure's on. You have to be able to make one-on-one tackles. You have to be able to be good at the breakdown. Pressure's on you have to be able to make one-on-one tackles.
Speaker 2:You have to be able to be good at the breakdown your catch pass has to be meticulous elite because you've got a passable feather, um, so all of your skills just develop so much in sevens. Um, and like, I completely agree, like quagga smith is my favorite player at the moment, like he's just the best and he was like one of the best sevens players that I've ever seen play and you see so many of them develop. I think the Argentinian team actually had so many crossover from sevens into their 15s team.
Speaker 2:Look what they're doing at the moment and like yeah, now they're sort of starting to really come into their own and like mix it with like obviously, being the spring box on the weekend just gone is like huge, huge deal huge, yeah. So, um, it would be great if rugby australia could recognize that and use sevens as that pathway to develop skills in young boys, because it's and girls and girls, yeah, before they transition across.
Speaker 2:But I would love for the 15s girls to continue to grow and develop, and we obviously have the home World Cup here in five years, which is just such a great opportunity for women's sport.
Speaker 1:Yeah, women's rugby, the Matildas, exactly yeah, like if we can be competitive in that tournament.
Speaker 2:I think it will just change the rugby landscape for women, especially in Australia and hopefully for everyone in Australia, if we can get that team being competitive, which is like has to start now, like it's going to take time for us to be able to mix it with the Red Roses and the New Zealand girls. So, yeah, we really probably need to start, you know, developing that space as much as we can yeah, absolutely that's awesome.
Speaker 1:And I guess if, to bring this home, if you had one final message to the young 14 year old female that's listening to this and sort of had a bit of a loss with sport and you know, do I keep playing? Should I stop? What really stands out for you and what would you say to them now, as they have to sort of hit that crossroads, particularly if it happens younger, for females boys it tends to happen after school they stop playing. What would you say to them? And yeah, I guess what's your message to them?
Speaker 2:I think for me just like I've obviously touched on it a few times already, but like the community aspect that you get out of sport, whether it's elite or at club level, or even if it is just like social touch social touch, if it's going to the gym and doing classes or if it's park runs, whatever it is that like, yeah, just that community, to like have somewhere to go where you can make friends and just be active with people, just makes you feel so much better.
Speaker 2:And like, obviously I'm so lucky that I've got 15 young girls that I've. You know we're going to have all these special memories and experiences that bond you together and you've got almost like 15 built in best friends that you get to hang out with every day. So we're lucky. But like, even I love going down to club rugby and I think it's like one of the best spaces for just feeling included and everyone has a place. And, um, yeah, I think it's just, you can't put a price on just what that community can do for your life. Whether you're 14 or 40, you can always come back there and feel welcome and feel like you have a place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love it, charlotte, I don't know if enough people say this to you, but for everything you've done, at least for the sport of rugby union in this country, but just globally, and I think the representation from a female athlete's side like thank you, out there, you go so hard. You wear your heart on this on your sleeve. You are who you are and not many athletes, particularly in this country, are willing to do that, because the natural tall poppy syndrome of chop them down and you just seem to just walk right through it and it it has a wonderful effect on a number of people, I have no doubt. So don't change, keep being you and, um, yeah, I'm sure there's another world cup cycle in there at least you seem to be hanging in really nicely and doing really well.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, just thanks for being you and and thank you so much for jumping on today's episode and giving us your time so generously no worries, thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure, thanks, thanks for listening to today's episode. For more regular insights into SOF, be sure to check us out on Instagram or Facebook, or visit our website at scienceoffitnesscomau. Once again, we thank you for tuning in to the Science of Fitness podcast.