The Science of Fitness Podcast
Welcome to the Science Of Fitness podcast where we aim to inspire you to live a healthier and more fulfilling life as we share evidence and anecdotes on all things health, fitness, performance, wellness and business.
Hosted by Kieran Maguire, Co-Owner and Director of Science Of Fitness with an Undergraduate degree in Exercise Science and Masters degree in High Performance, the podcast includes guests and friends of SOF from all walks of life sharing their knowledge and stories within their field of expertise.
Join us as we provide listeners with digestible and relatable educational tools and entertaining stories to inspire a healthier and more fulfilling life.
The Science of Fitness Podcast
S2 E27 Overcoming Anxiety and Building Resilience Through Self-Awareness w/ Dr. Priyanka Naidu, Psychology Expert
Dr. Priyanka Naidu's transformative journey from grappling with social anxiety to becoming a celebrated psychology expert is nothing short of inspiring. Picture this: the very challenges that once held her back became the cornerstone of her professional path. You'll gain insights into how Dr. Naidu used her experiences to not only conquer her fears but also help others do the same, teaching us that personality traits aren't fixed but can be evolved through performance psychology and self-awareness.
We dive into the powerful intersection of personal growth and public speaking, where Dr. Naidu reflects on family influences and early experiences that shaped her self-perception. We explore how the dual forces of positive and negative reinforcement impact our abilities, and she provides strategies for reframing unhelpful thoughts. Dr. Naidu also brings her expertise in social psychology to the table, exploring the complexities of human beliefs around climate change and the profound importance of maintaining self-worth independent of others’ opinions.
As the conversation unfolds, we tackle the trials and triumphs of pursuing a PhD, shedding light on building confidence through adversity and the importance of separating personal identity from academic work. We also explore the innovative realm of mental health tech, featuring the DALA app, and how technology and community initiatives like "Cup of Tea" events can enhance mental well-being. Join us for an enlightening discussion on overcoming anxiety, building resilience, and the transformative power of community and technology in fostering genuine human connections.
Welcome to the Science of Fitness podcast, where we aim to inspire you to live a healthier and more fulfilling life, as we share evidence and anecdotes on all things relating to health, fitness, performance, business and wellness. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to the Science of Fitness podcast. Today we have Dr Priyanka Naidoo Pri. Welcome aboard.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 1:No problems and thanks for jumping on. So there's a whole heap to get stuck into today your work with Dala and the Meddlesome team around tech and, I guess, mental health, mental wellness in the tech space, phd in psychology and more social psych. So plenty to discuss there. But but to kick things off, I'd really like to just start with your story and your journey, and for me it's such an important piece of you know someone's profession and personal identity and I guess where they are in their career. What really got you going first and foremost into psychology? Talk me through high school and your experiences and then what led you to at least doing an undergrad in psych.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So with psychology, it was funny because it wasn't something initially I was very drawn to. It was almost I couldn't see myself, you know, doing other things and I was like, okay, maybe I'll try. I'll try psychology and see what happens as a starting point and it was only until about third year, I think I really got into it and I could see how I could personally benefit from it. So, you know, it wasn't just about, oh, you know, the grades and all that. It was, wow, this is really valuable. I can apply this to myself and I want to share this with others.
Speaker 2:So I've grown up with social anxiety. It has, you know, been, I think, a big part of my story about why I do the work that I do and you know how I want to support others. And it's, you know, something that I think a lot of people can relate to. And you know, even if you don't have social anxiety, you can definitely relate to feeling like an outsider or wanting to. And you know, even if you don't have social anxiety, you can definitely relate to feeling like an outsider or wanting to belong, or you know, that kind of need is so innate in us and having that, as you know something that's really held me back in a lot of situations.
Speaker 2:You know things that I wanted to pursue in my work life maybe in social life as well and having to then navigate and apply what I was learning and also what I was teaching. You know, I was teaching these things at university and looking at myself going wait, I'm talking about anxiety, I'm talking about low confidence and how to build it. Yet I'm struggling. So really looking at how, yeah, I can use those evidence-based tools on myself and share that journey with others, it's really important.
Speaker 1:You talk about growing up and struggling to an extent with social anxiety. When did you realise that you were like? Were there multiple moments that you experienced and hated and, you know, struggled with and had to deal with, as we all do? At what point all do? At what point were you able to look over your shoulder and go? I was really struggling with that then.
Speaker 2:So I think it was only when I was studying psychology that I realised, like there was a name for it, that it was social anxiety. I think I always just thought you know, this is okay, like I'm just a shy kid, this is just who I am, and so what are the feelings?
Speaker 2:Yeah, gosh, sometimes it's that kind of fight or flight. You know that it can look different. So sometimes it's that your heart is racing. You know you're shaking, you start perspiring and sometimes even it makes you feel like you're frozen, like you cannot speak. You want to, you want to speak up, but you can't. And like I remember my dad telling me that one of his friends thought I was mute because of how little I spoke when I was young because I was terrified that I would say something silly or say something embarrassing, and you know I'd be rejected.
Speaker 1:You know like rejected from the tribe you know we know is so important in terms of that kind of fight or flight evolutionary response, driving the behavior or driving the feeling that drives the behavior, and so it sort of goes, because that's what I was going to ask is like experientially, and the reason I'm doing this is I've no doubt there's so many people that are listening to this haven't been able to, or haven't had the opportunity, to a degree, the luxury of being able to, oh, that is something that I'm experiencing.
Speaker 1:It's not who I am, and I think that's the most important thing for people to understand is like yeah, you know your dad saying people think you're a mute, it's like that's not going to help and probably well intended in saying that, but learning that about yourself is such a valuable thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think also that you know, when you're labelled a shy kid, you think that that's then who you are and that you can't change. And so for the longest time I thought people were either confident or they're not, you know, and I didn't think about it as a skill that you could develop and I think that's so then limiting right, if you just label yourself or put yourself in a box. I'm just this way, and so it took me, honestly, even after undergrad studying psychology it was when I was teaching a course on performance psychology so sports psychology it was, yeah, realising that our ability to build confidence, emotion regulation, our ability to, you know, manage stress, these are all skills that we can work on and build over time and strengthen, and I think that was sort of a game changer for me, realising I could, yeah, work on this.
Speaker 1:So powerful. I love it it's. I say it from an exercise, science, movement sense. Someone comes in with pain or you know, wanting to improve their movement in any way, shape or form. First and foremost it's a skill and in our world we call it a neurological adaptation. You know, your ability to recruit the muscle or execute the movement pattern is a bit clunky when you start and you're a bit bad and you got to practice, practice, practice to get good, good, good. It's same psychologically right as you said, confidence being a skill. What were things that you did in terms of implementing reps and sets to go? Huh, that's a moment where I lack confidence. How do I build it? Because it'd be nice if we could go I'm a confident person and turn around and be confident, but it doesn't work like that. So, from the I guess, the psych literature sense, and then obviously in your experience, what did you do to gradually build that confidence?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so for me. So, cause I think for a long time, you know, I would actually avoid things that I was quite anxious about, and we know that avoidance doesn't help anything, because if you avoid something that you feel anxious about, then you feel so much better, like you feel this release, and that then teaches you to like avoid those situations again and again.
Speaker 1:Reinforces it.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and so, for me, something that I knew I really wanted to do was tutoring at the university. I love teaching, I love presenting. It is something that completely terrifies me, but I can't say You're called to do it. Yeah, interesting. And so I actually. So I think I taught over maybe four years. In my third year I actually developed chronic insomnia. I wasn't sleeping at all. I was really stressed.
Speaker 1:As a tutor.
Speaker 2:As a tutor because I was teaching, teaching at university, and this is post-undergrad.
Speaker 2:This is, yes, post-undergrad. So while I was doing my PhD Wow, and that I remember talking to my parents because I was really really struggling one semester and like to the point where, like I couldn't, I couldn't eat properly, you know, I was trying to have like toast and honey and I was having. You know, the GP gave me these multivitamins and, like I, it was really difficult and at some point my parents would drop me to university to teach and said that I don't want you to driving because I was so, like, I felt so, you know, weak and it was a horrible time, and so you know there were conversations about do you want to continue teaching?
Speaker 2:And I just I knew that this is something that I wanted to do and that over time it would tell my brain and body that actually this is okay, that this is safe. And I'm so glad I stuck through it because I get to continue to do the work that I love and I also got evidence that you know, as a tutor or lecturer, you get these evaluations from your students and one of the most powerful ones was you know, during the semester, that I wasn't sleeping because I got evidence that actually you're doing okay. Actually, there are people out here that think of you in such, you know, high regard, despite you weren't. You know you're sleeping, you know you're not, you're poor sleep and things like that.
Speaker 2:And so I think it's it's over time, building up that evidence and reminding yourself of that. You know, there are still times now I had a presentation on Tuesday terrified, and you know when you're terrified and you just it's like you've got tunnel vision and all you can think about is, oh my gosh, I'm going to fail, oh my gosh, I'm going to embarrass myself, all of these things. And I called up a friend and she had to remind me hey, pri, this is like child's play for you. Like you know, you're only talking for this amount of time. You've done this and this and I almost forgot.
Speaker 2:So it was like you have the evidence, but sometimes you need to remind yourself, and it's also, I think, about understanding more, about, you know, wellbeing tools out there and your own psychology and practising them. You know, having these daily habits or routines that you can fall back on or that you can, you know, build to kind of strengthen that, that resilience and that confidence that you, you know, we all want.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely it's. I sort of reflect on my story and public speaking was something that I have not had an issue with my entire life One and I've said it on this podcast before. I grew up in a family of four other kids. We were fighting for attention at the dinner table and if you had the spotlight on you you had the mic. You're telling a bloody good story and it's compelling and you're trying to hold the crowd because you're going to lose them really quickly. So that was a great initial skill development.
Speaker 1:I think one of the first speeches I gave in like an English class. I got a really good mark for it. I then did an inter-school public speaking competition and did really well and had to then say in front of the school as a year three kid to all the year sevens and sixes and had all these positive experiences. There were a few negative ones in there.
Speaker 1:I did some public like impromptu public speaking ones and stood up with one line as a 10-year-old in front of dads and kids at this inter-school thing and had nothing to say and went white and nearly vomited. So you know there were challenges with it for myself, but I had positive reinforcement all the time and now, like this stuff, I love it and the more I get put in front of people speaking, the better I am at it and I look at that positive reinforcement versus your case, maybe other end of the spectrum, maybe you didn't get good grades or whatever the association you might have had that caused you to have this visceral neural reaction. It's funny how we can be a subject of that and, I think, how so many people go through their lives subject of that and not realizing it, how so many people go through their lives subject of that and not realizing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think also something that I've realized is that you know, sometimes if something bad happens, there are some people who internalize that. So I think that's something that I'll do, or I, you know I did while growing up. For sure is, if someone was rude to me or they acted in a way that was disrespectful, I saw that as I'm not worthy of respect. I really saw that as something that was a failure on my part, Whereas now, you know, when you're older, you can kind of say no, actually there are just some shitty people out there and it's on them.
Speaker 2:And so I think that learning to do that as well, learning to not, I guess, yeah take things personally or internalize all of these experiences has also been really important. And also, you know I mentioned before about that evidence that you know you're doing okay despite your fears, and being able to challenge those kind of unhelpful thoughts is really really important.
Speaker 2:But actually equally as important has been the times when maybe I've presented and I was like actually that wasn't great, but do you know what? It was fine. Nothing bad happened to me. You know, maybe I completely messed up, but what?
Speaker 1:Like no one, you know, like I'm safe, I'm good, I'm just going to try again and it'll be okay, It'll be okay and people aren't talking about it again Exactly, and no one's worried about it and whatever's in your head is not nearly as bad as it seems. A hundred percent, yeah, yeah, that's interesting. It's such a good point and I find, particularly when we're navigating new people in here, the biggest questionblock resistance is what will they think I'm worried about what?
Speaker 1:they think, and it's like they're worried about what you think, and so you're both worried about the same thing, and so it's the most ridiculous thing to worry about, because everybody thinks the other person's watching them, which is the silliest thing. But it's so true, and it speaks the same to this situation. As you're saying, as you're giving that presentation, someone's worried. As you're saying, as you're giving that presentation, someone's worried that you're watching them, not pay attention, and then they'll manifest that and stress about it or whatever it might be. It just shows, I guess, the vulnerability and the fragility of the conscious mind, which sort of is to a degree where psychology comes in and we're getting much clearer understanding as it evolves neurologically and psychologically as it goes. And so you did your undergrad and you did your research in social psych.
Speaker 2:I did yes.
Speaker 1:And what took you down there? How did that come about?
Speaker 2:I think I was just always really interested in understanding why people or how people think the way that they do, interested in understanding why people or how people think the way that they do. So you know, when presented with evidence, why do people you know? For example, my thesis was looking at climate change attitudes and perceptions of risk and you know, when people are presented with information, you know and evidence, people will deny that and dismiss that.
Speaker 2:And I was very interested in why and how you know we can look for evidence or search for things that actually confirm our expectations or our existing kind of you know, worldviews and all of that, and I just, I don't know, I found that really fascinating with, yeah, just with, you know, like even with science communication now, and there are so many you know, there are scientists out there who have spent their entire, you know like. Career.
Speaker 2:Career, exactly career working on something. And you know, people who don't have that exact same kind of knowledge can dismiss the evidence without properly looking into it or, you know, reading further. And I wanted to understand why you know. And I mean, just because you have a PhD or a scientist in something doesn't mean you know everything, of course. But yeah, I wanted to just understand that and explore it a little bit more.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, really interesting. Well we're, I guess, to preface this question, one of the big things from building that confidence that you now have in abundance, by the way, is there's a degree of hard work that goes into it. There's a degree of I've earned this stripe and I think a PhD is incredibly challenging and a lot of people forget until you live or work with someone that's doing a PhD and you go, oh, you're doing a PhD, that's hard. And there's a degree of, I guess, the delayed self-gratification of a PhD, where you submit something and it comes back and you get ridiculed and you've got to go do it again and you've got to work hard and then your data has to be right and everything else. What were the big challenges that ultimately gave you the stripe or the confidence element, from a researcher perspective and now as a professional?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, personally, for me it was one of the best experiences because it was like. It showed me evidence that I can do hard things. You know, and I think everyone who does a PhD is, we all have, you know, unique challenges and we're also doing other things.
Speaker 2:You know we're working, we're teaching, we're doing research, assistant work, Like there are so many things that we're doing and you know, imposter syndrome amongst you know, my colleagues, my friends doing the PhD is just everywhere, and so I think that was a big part of it is, you know, trying to combat that kind of voice that in a voice that comes in that you can't do this. Who are you to? You know, because you're also, when you do a research paper and you publish to a journal, you know there are a board of you know, like your peers or people that are experts in that area and they're evaluating or they're looking at your research and saying whether it should be in this journal or not, and that can also feel like a sense of rejection, because there is a lot of rejection in academia. Like there is a lot.
Speaker 2:And so also navigating that and kind of normalising that experience. I think, was important, you know, and I think that kind of goes with most of life challenges is like.
Speaker 1:My next question was it's not a personal attack, it's an objective. The journal needs a has a certain standard and we have to meet it.
Speaker 2:Exactly yes, and I think that was something that happened, you know, during our PhD is separating my work from myself. I definitely, for the longest time, and probably still do it to some extent is that you know anything that is important to to you. You know this is it might be an idea or a value or project If it gets criticized, if it feels like it's rejected. It feels like you're getting criticized or rejected, and so being able to separate the two um has been so important. You know you aren't your work, you aren't what you produce. You were so much more than that um, yeah, so that's really interesting.
Speaker 1:How do people that are hearing this concept for the first time actually actually separate it? Because it's all well and good to hear this and think that of yourself, but what are some hard to do-do like sit-down tools, write in a journal, chat to a friend, like is there specific stuff that sort of comes to mind?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. So, you know, if you can, you know, seeing a mental health practitioner, a psychologist, I think is such a powerful tool. I know it's not accessible for everyone, the wait times, you know, that would be the first thing. But also something that's been really powerful for me is journaling, and it's being able to write how you're feeling, but with some distance, and I think you know you can, you know you can talk it out, you can type it. Um, that still helps. But there's something with writing where, because your brain, like you, write slower than your, you know than your brain.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly and so, um, I think that helps you slow down the thoughts and especially if you're feeling really anxious or or angry or some overwhelming emotions, that is so helpful. But it allows you to kind of see what you've written on paper and see that with a bit of distance. So it's not like I'm feeling this anger, but I can see that I, you know, I'm noticing that I'm feeling that anger and you can see, you know patterns in that over time as well. For me it has been a life changer, you know, like if I'm upset or if I'm feeling anxious, writing it down and looking at and challenging my thoughts as well, you know, looking for evidence that actually this isn't true, like thoughts are just thoughts, they are not the facts, you know, and it's over time seeing that. So you know, even talking to a friend, of course, you know talking to a friend, of course you know, yes is really helpful if you've got that tunnel vision and you can't see anything else.
Speaker 2:But you know your emotions, you know getting on the phone with someone yeah, can be really helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've seen a beautiful graphic and the wonderful place that is the internet. Um of you know, our thoughts are just scribbles of circle, just in all sorts of patterns in one page, and then our thoughts in conversation are these scribbles, but this sort of line that flows quite beautifully. And then a journal. Our thoughts on paper are a beautiful, wavy, organised line. Because you cannot scramble, you cannot, just you have to, as you say no, come back, finish that sentence completely, write it out, make it literate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it helps you process your emotions and identify what it is you're feeling, Cause I think sometimes we don't actually know. Like it takes us a while to, like I'm I think I'm pretty good at identifying what that specific emotion is, but for a lot of us it's actually quite hard. You know, it might feel like, you know, a tightness in our chest, or it might feel like a warmth in our, you know, in our body, but we don't know what exactly it is, and so being able to process it in that way is so helpful to then know what to do next to then, you know, manage it. Hmm.
Speaker 1:How has it shaped the way you now approach your work professionally? The PhD particularly. It's evidence you can do hard things. It's a really really. You know it's a challenging, but I suppose that sense of accomplishment is really strong in it. What did you pick up from a skill set perspective that you've now taken over into your professional career?
Speaker 2:I think, also like the research base. You know, we want you know so I'm product lead and wellbeing designer for Dala Health and it's we want it to, you know, be based in research, be rooted in science. You know, we want it to be practical and evidence-based so that when people are feeling a certain way, we can suggest and encourage them tools that actually, you know, help, so that research base is really strong within us.
Speaker 1:Sorry to interrupt. How important do you think that is now in the modern world Because there is so much noise? Yeah, and a lot of the noise when it comes to hard evidence and literature is not particularly that qualified.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is really difficult because you know even someone who has a research background, you know you listen to some podcasts and you go, oh, that sounds pretty valid and they sound like they know what they're talking about. And then you look into it and you go, oh't actually find evidence of this and it is really really difficult, like um it I think it's, you know, really doing the reading, looking at the claims that are being made and what are the the studies that are behind it. You know, like I I'm quite interested in that area of, yeah, mis and disinformation and looking at kind of that critical thinking piece and also different types of evidence. You know we have there's a hierarchy of evidence. There is anecdotal evidence, which Is the little story.
Speaker 2:Exactly, which is also you know can be biased and it might be a small sample or there's. You know the kind also you know can be biased and it might be a small sample, or there's, you know the kind of.
Speaker 3:you know you kind of go up in the ladder of like Talk us through as many as you can pull up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there's, you know, research articles. There's experimental kind of data. So when you're doing an experiment and you're looking at, you know, randomised control trial, we'll be looking at a control group versus an experimental group. So if I want to test a drug, for example, and see whether it reduces anxiety, I will have a look at, you know, does that reduce anxiety? But I'll also have a placebo or a control group. So they're still having a supplement or, you know, a pill.
Speaker 1:I think it might work.
Speaker 2:Exactly and looking at the differences, because we know the placebo effect is so powerful and strong, Like the mind is, yeah, very, very strong. And also, you know we have meta-analyses, which actually looks at a whole body of research and looks at what is the?
Speaker 2:evidence with that. So that's the you know top tier kind of form, and so some people, when you're, you know, when you're talking about, you know a supplement or different, you know, whatever it is, they might be citing research that's done only in animals, for example, you know, and it doesn't necessarily mean that it's not helpful for humans, but that research just isn't out yet.
Speaker 1:It's not there, we can't be conclusive.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and so you know there is some research that you know we might be able to say there is some, you know, emerging evidence yeah, exactly of this. And some you know emerging evidence yeah, exactly of this. And that's the thing with science. I think we like things to be um clear-cut. You know, does it work, doesn't it? And science isn't like that, because it's not like, also, that we're all the same and that everything you know works for you know yes, exactly and so, um, looking at what is that?
Speaker 2:you know? What is the population that they've been testing on? Have they looked at females as well? Have they looked at different age groups, people with different hormonal imbalances, like there are so many things that is needed to be able to say you know, with a lot of you know, like a strong confidence that this is true or this is exactly, and so I think it is hard and I think you know, having a research background, it's still you know, it's still quite difficult to know and so that's something that you know.
Speaker 2:With DALA, we want to ensure that those research, the researchers out there, before you know, we create these resources and you know, after creating the app, we want to look at its impact on anxiety and depression and ensure you know, after creating the app, we want to look at its impact on anxiety and depression and ensure you know that it is, yeah, effective.
Speaker 1:Effective and valid. Let's get into DALA, let's get into the work that you guys are really doing there. So a high level summary holistic mental health healthcare.
Speaker 2:What.
Speaker 1:What happens with Darla? Yes, what does it look?
Speaker 2:like. So Darla is an app and it allows you to process your emotions and provides you insights on how you're doing and also suggests tools, evidence-based tools, to support you where you're at. So, you know, if you're feeling quite happy, you're feeling pretty good, you might be. So, you know, if you're feeling quite happy, you're feeling pretty good, you might be suggested to. You know, learn a bit more about how you can prolong those feelings. You might do you know a great meditation, things like that. If you're feeling quite anxious, you might learn a little bit more about what anxiousness is, where it stems from, but then also be suggested a number of strategies like, um, you know, thought challenging, or there are so many kind of cbt kind of techniques, like worry time, and you know all these evidence based things that you'll be suggested. So we want to create something that's super personalized and that will be helpful um for you, you know, depending on, like, what you're going through at that time yeah, yeah, very interesting, it's sort of and.
Speaker 1:I've had the fortunate, I guess, experience of being able to interact with it and use it and do some work with you guys and from an actual product design perspective, the way it feels and the utilisation. It doesn't have this sort of tech or the collection data and then you're going to find out about me it really does have that supportive mechanism. How important is that? And I guess, whether we like it or not, tech is a part of our lives big time and it's only going to increase tenfold in the next couple of years. How important is that for people to, I guess, have that understanding and appreciation of the value that tech can bring, because it gets criticized everywhere, but in this case, it can be incredibly valuable for people.
Speaker 2:Exactly, it just enhances support for us. You know, and I'll be honest, when it was suggested that Darla uses AI, I was a bit like, oh you know it's almost like my education, and my teaching in psychology teaches me not to trust, you know, ai.
Speaker 2:in a way, it's like no, no, no, this is not right. But then when you see it, you know, and see how it works and how we can't create a product that supports and is as personalised without it and being able to, you know, say how you're feeling. You know, say how you're feeling, you know, say you've had a really hard day, you're feeling this way, and it can process that for you and suggest very quickly, then, some things that you can do to support yourself.
Speaker 1:And it doesn't come with the emotional baggage of admitting those feelings to a friend or a partner or a work colleague where you might be, you might resist sharing that. Exactly yes, Because of what you might get back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it feels like a kind of, I think, safe space for you to explore your feelings without that fear of judgment, you know, because I think for a lot of people you know it might be, you know you might not be wanting to kind of reach out to a friend, you might not know how to express what you're feeling, and so being able to talk to the AI and talk to Dala is so beneficial. It might be even kind of the first you know kind of thing that you do before you reach out for help and you've kind of processed.
Speaker 2:what you're doing, you're okay. Actually, that wasn't that hard. I can reach out, and so I think it's really powerful. But also, you know, when we're experiencing challenges, sometimes when we're stuck in it, we can't see what to do next. It's like when a friend comes to you for advice. You can tell them what to do. You can give great advice. It's so easy.
Speaker 2:You're like, oh my gosh, I was so wise, but when you're in that situation, you're like I don't know what to do. I don't know what to to do, you know, and so to be able to tell Dala how you feel and then suggest something that will help you, I think is really incredibly valuable. You don't have to look at. Oh, what resource do I want to look at? You know, it will suggest you something to do in the moment.
Speaker 1:And then how important is the momentum aspect in that case? You go and take action on it. You feel stuck. Make, make the suggestion, it comes through, you follow through with it. It builds momentum in a positive way, right?
Speaker 2:definitely, and I think that's that's the thing is that you know, when you start to practice this and build this kind of toolkit, I think it's all about you know, we all have this toolkit and we have.
Speaker 2:You know, things like connecting with loved ones, journaling, you know, um, cuddling our pets, or you know whatever it is we have. You know things like connecting with loved ones, journaling, you know, cuddling our pets, or you know whatever it is. We have all these tools, but sometimes we don't know how to use it or when to use it. And it's just about that practicing and you'll come to realize okay, actually, when I'm, when I'm feeling quite angry, when there's I'm in a heated conversation, these are the tools I can draw on. When I'm feeling really anxious, there might be some different tools that I draw on, you know. So it's trying to kind of make wellbeing a daily practice, because I think, you know, preventative healthcare and preventative emotional support is something that we can, you know, do a lot better in, and that's kind of the space that we want to be in is how can we prevent things, you know, like burnout down the track or those stressful periods? How can we build those skills?
Speaker 1:To handle them Exactly and, as you said, you know preventative mechanisms being the best and it's very easy to sit and ask for help, to sit and journal, to look to book an appointment with a psychologist when you're doing not so great, when you're doing badly, when you're not feeling your best, accessibility is a big factor. You guys are probably going to be addressing that with Dala To be able to implement things when you're doing well and say, hey, I'm actually feeling really good. There's a mechanism within the app that sort of works in that sense.
Speaker 2:Yes, so that was something that we, you know, we spoke about being. Actually, it might not be when someone's struggling that they want to try out a new behavior behavior, you know, a new habit. It might actually be when they're doing well. So how can we encourage people to start, you know, building these new habits when they're doing well? So when they're not, you know they've got something to fall back on. Exactly, and, yeah, I think that that's really powerful because you know, we know that, like, if, if we're stressed, then we stop, we might stop exercising as much. You know we're not sleeping well, we might be choosing, you know, fast foods and ordering Uber Eats more, because we don't have the energy to, you know, to cook healthy meals, and so, but if it's part of our routine, if we have this community with us as well, we enjoy seeing the people you know that we exercise with and things like that that you've built here you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:We are more likely to rely on that when we are, you know, going through a hard time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and that's sort of the other component of what you guys are building is to then be able to utilise this, what seems like an isolated sort of tech tool instrument, but then leveraging off the back of that to connect communities in that sense. So talk me through that strategy. I'm somewhat familiar with it. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:I think, well, yeah, community is a big aspect to DALA. You know, we know that when other you know, our friends and our community, are engaging in some kind of healthy behaviour, like it's contagious, we are more likely to try it as well. So, you know, our sort of next feature is all about insights, like how can we get personal insights but also community insights to encourage behavior? So it might be that, you know, you think I'm not going to journal, I'm not going to like. You know, I think there's a little bit of a stigma, you know, with journaling. But actually this community or this group of people that I actually identify with maybe it's the same kind of age range or, you know, maybe it's new parents or you know whatever group and actually people are saying that they are really enjoying journaling and it's helping them with their anxiousness, or it might be a gratitude practice or something that you'd never even thought of doing, but actually it's normalized for you now because you see, you know your community doing it as well.
Speaker 2:And so how can we utilize that, those social norms, that encouragement from other people to encourage behaviours?
Speaker 1:Because that's why like group fitness and all of that is so powerful, right? Because you're doing the colours. Yeah, yeah, it's funny. I mean leaning back on the social scientist. You know how much does that influence behaviours. You just sort of touched on that.
Speaker 2:When the people you're surrounded by are doing x, you're probably going to join them yeah, it's a huge influence because, um, you can see that, okay, that person can do it. It means I can do it and also, it's, it's normalized for you and and that's why, also, like you know, with anything, you know, if you want to read more books, you know you, the best way to do that is to join a reading club. Or if you want to exercise more, you join, you know, like an exercise, like a small fitness group and things like that because you make yeah the behaviour.
Speaker 2:When it's normalised, you're more likely to do it and we all have that need to belong and it's very innate in us and so yeah it's something that we're looking at?
Speaker 1:yeah, anecdotal experiment experiment is is I mean, is this place it's the breathing class being the prime example? Young, fit, healthy, train hard, train hard, train hard, train hard, train hard. The more I learned I was like we need to bring in some sort of down regulatory thing and off we went with yoga polite, like the whole work, but particularly the breathing and a breathing class that wasn't. I'm going to get a yoga-based breathing instructor. That isn't relatable. I was like I'm just going to learn structure something and let's see how we go. And now it's one of our most popular sessions and it's wild because it is the one session that gets all walks of ability from a fitness sense engaged. But, as you said, oh.
Speaker 1:I train with her and she goes to breathing regularly, but she's also one of the fittest here. Or you know. I find her aspirational in whatever way I'm going to go and it sort of drives that social behavior. I think, as you said, seeing other people doing that, you might regard as one aspirational or two same as you. Well, I can go do that behaviour too.
Speaker 2:Exactly, it's like running clubs. They're so popular now you know, they're huge yeah, you might think of yourself like, oh, I can't run, you know but oh, my friend's actually going. Okay, yeah, I can do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah exactly Like. So it's really powerful, and that's why, you know, we started to do community events as well, like, we are still building the app. We do have a beta version and we're building it, and we want to build it with community, because we know that, you know, mental health and wellbeing. It's so personalised, you know, even if we experience the same thing, we might experience it very differently, and so what we need is different, and so, you know, it can't be something that just a small group of people, you know, look at and go. How can we design this? We want to hear from everyone.
Speaker 2:I think that's something that, at Dala, we've done really intentionally and quite well is that we've, you know, tested every feature. We tested and how can we learn from others, and so, like, for example, we were looking at how people process emotions. You know, one way, like I said before, I'm very good at identifying how I feel with language, but not everyone is, and so, you know, we had a great conversation with our team and everyone sort of explored different ways, is it? You know, now we have a journaling way where you can talk, because some people like talking out their feelings, some people like, you know, now we have a journaling way where you can talk, because some people like talking out their feelings, some people, like you, know typing. Can we do something down the track where we're kind of drawing, where on the body we feel you know? So it's like how can we really personalise it so that, no matter what your needs are, we can support you? You know the best way possible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's sort of two layers with that, but the first one I want to go to is as tech evolves, we're kind of doing this grand loop in the sense of before social media and tech. All we had was the radius of people around us at work, home, sport, exercise, whatever communities we're a part of and we didn't have access to the globe. Along comes the internet and this whole social media thing we have access to. You know, 10x, 20x the volume of people we once thought we or we once did, we once were limited to, and in doing so we're more connected than ever, but on an individual basis. Isolation's gone up through the roof. Statistically, we're more isolated Connected but isolated.
Speaker 1:And I'm looking at tech now and then I'm looking at all these behaviours, as you're saying, from a social norm, run clubs being the prime example in my world, my little bubble of exercise, huge and it's real and it's sweaty, and it's not a filtered photo and it's not the perfect caption. It's this like we're going to go and run and it's early and we're pulling sleep out of our eyes as we get there, and you know. But the rawness of that experience is connecting people so much better, and you know, and that's why it's taken off. It's not a fad, it's human behaviour you guys are the first and you probably know more of. Do you think that that's where tech's going to go? We've almost realised, we've isolated ourselves in an attempt to connect more. Yeah, and we're going to bring it full circle back.
Speaker 2:I think, definitely. I think we are really craving that connection and I think also, you know we had you know with in a lot of cultures you would live with your extended family.
Speaker 2:You know you had this whole kind of or you'd live very close to your neighbors and you knew you know the people on the street and you had all of that. But we don't have that as much anymore and we don't have religion. I think that was another institution where you know you get together as a group and you practice gratitude, like what is prayer? It's gratitude and all of these kinds of things, and so we're looking at our you know our work, I think, and also you know gyms as kind of that outlet for us to feel like we belong, because when we feel like we belong and we're connected to others, like we feel safe you know it's so important.
Speaker 1:That's very interesting. One of our over 50s clients her husband's a professor in sociology actually and uh, he made the observation of gyms are the new, the modern day churches. You've got your over 50s, you've got your youth class and then you've got everyone in between and they come and practice ritualized things to a certain extent and they connect and provides community. And I was like it's a very, very interesting take and it's such a good point because all of that stuff, the very fabric that big communities, society, cities build it, you know, success almost has been built on those foundations and they've almost fallen out from underneath us unintentionally.
Speaker 1:I don't think there's one evil person going ha-ha, I've worked this out. I think it's just a series of unintended circumstances. But here we are and so we need to do something about it. Coincidentally for us, oh okay, we stumbled into this exercise thing, Sweet, we will continue to endeavour to provide quality service from an exercise sense and, you know, let that be settled on the backbone of community. And likewise for you guys, you know, support and help, but let that be supported through that really strong connection and community piece, because that drives adherence, it drives better behaviour.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly because we've got. Yeah, that's why we started our community events called Cup of Tea, and you know we're doing one soon actually doing a breath work for us. Thank you so much. That's very, very excited because I've done meditation and mindfulness, but I haven't done like a whole breath work session yet.
Speaker 2:So I'm very excited and we're also talking about, you know, stress and why we experience stress. I think the why to me is very interesting, because then it allows me well, it's allowed me to realise like the self-soothing and why that supports me. And so, yeah, I'm really excited to kind of build this community and practise wellbeing together.
Speaker 1:I think it will be really special, yeah, pretty awesome. Last one, from a performance enhancement perspective, because really that's why I got into what I do and in doing so I tend to work with all sorts of life. But I don't look at performances and win the competition performance. I look at it as who are you and who do you want to be, and how can we maximize that. Looking at those that professionally want to get better and in their relationships there's a performance that you want to improve, how can they use?
Speaker 1:maybe it's DALA or other you know, mechanisms psychologically to enhance their performance and use them as tools to identify when they're doing well and what they're doing well and, I guess, to support them when they feel like they aren't achieving what they want to achieve from a performance perspective, no matter their role.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you know one thing that Darla can do but you know you can do without you know these apps and things is checking in with yourself daily, like how are you doing, how are you feeling, having that kind of close connection with yourself and then being able to process that, because I think, understanding then how you feel, what you need, how things are changing as well because we're not.
Speaker 2:You know our needs change as well. You know they're evolving in our life. So being able to be in tune with that kind of inner voice and what you need and going from there, you know, I think for me like understanding more about you know wellbeing tools and that I have access to things like exercise, that you know therapy or journaling or going out to, you know nature, walks and going to the beach, like all of that is so important for my mental health and it's not just when I need it but it's there all the time and that that's important to me. You know that feeling of safety. And also, you know sleep my gosh, how important is sleep Exactly? And looking at yourself, like holistically, and looking at your daily habits to support you and just, yeah, checking in with yourself, I think is sort of the first step, I would say, to figuring out what you then need.
Speaker 1:Yeah, makes so much sense and it does sound so simple, but it is a challenge. Yeah, it really is a challenge, you know it's. It's whether it's sitting down and doing, you know, journaling, like what role do I want to fulfill and how do I rate my performance? And then why do I feel a need to meet a certain criteria if there's that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's yeah. So that performance aspect is definitely understanding what it means. So there's something that powerful actually that I learned recently, which is, you know, when you're experiencing maybe, just say, an overwhelming emotion, you're in a fight or you're you know, maybe it's a performance struggle or something kind of ask yourself what meaning have I assigned this? And I have felt like that to me has been so profound and I've used that so many times and you kind of realize that, wow, okay with, maybe it's my performance. If I don't do well, the meaning I've assigned to that might be that well, I'm not good enough, I'm no good and I'm not safe. You know, like you can keep asking yourself the why, like, why do you feel this way? What do you think it means, what do you think that means? And you can sort of narrow into it, and I think those answers are really key then to start doing the work and then how can you support yourself?
Speaker 1:And that's such an important component doing the work. You know you can't just idea it and sit there.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Yeah, so it's like the education bit. But then the doing is, you know, and I think also like this takes time. You know, this journey, like you might think, oh my gosh, I'm doing so well, so well, and then you have a setback and you think what happened? Like I haven't made any change, you know, back to where I started. But no, like it's not linear. We're going to have our bad days. You know things are going to happen. We might not be sleeping, our, you know, stress container can be really narrow and it starts overflowing. And you see all of these, you know we start feeling overwhelmed and things don't go our way. But it's just, you know, it's just the journey, really, I think.
Speaker 2:And being patient and kind and compassionate is really important.
Speaker 1:through that, I think yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think that's a really strong note to finish on. Yeah, really really good. And I think my favourite thing about this is the tangibility of going and seeing a psychologist or having a therapist and creating that time, that space, having the resources available Most people don't, and in what you guys are working on, what you're creating, what you're bringing to the forefront, it's just going to give people a few more tools and the lens with which they approach. It can be anything from hey, I'm not feeling great, or it can be hey, I'm doing well, I want to do better, exactly, and that's both have their place and both are necessary, but I'm really impressed with it, I'm really excited by it and I'm really excited by that. I think the realness behind it for lack of a better term, as you're saying, it's a human-to-human thing. Ultimately, it's going to provide a backbone of support to move us in the direction we want to head. Um, so you know, we've got our cup of tea event. Uh, what is that?
Speaker 1:the first weekend of march yes, first of march 9 am on the saturday, yeah, and so that'll be over here at soft. So if you are listening to this and in brisbane or southeast queensland, by all means come along. Um, it'll be one of many that I'm sure we do together. Um, but yeah, I, I think, at the very least super excited for what you guys are doing. How can everybody see, darla, see what work you guys are doing and see the progress until the product's live?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we'll actually be on the app store on March 1st. Very exciting, so Darla. Health. Yeah, so we sort of yeah, had a sort of beta kind of close group testing, but now we're like you know what, let's launch it. So very exciting and yeah, so that's Darla Health. You can also find us on socials. That's hellodarla and our website is hellodarlacom. Amazing. So, yeah, check us out.
Speaker 1:Super exciting, cool, all right. Well, hopefully everybody listening does I recommend you do. As I said, I've already interacted with the app, and the team that have been working on this are some of the very best in the country, if not the world, including yourself. So thank you for all the wonderful work you guys are doing and thank you so much for your time today.
Speaker 2:Too kind. Thank you so much, no problem.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to today's episode. For more regular insights into SOF, be sure to check us out on Instagram or Facebook, or visit our website at scienceoffitnesscomau. Once again, we thank you for tuning in to the Science of Fitness podcast.