The Science of Fitness Podcast
Welcome to the Science Of Fitness podcast where we aim to inspire you to live a healthier and more fulfilling life as we share evidence and anecdotes on all things health, fitness, performance, wellness and business.
Hosted by Kieran Maguire, Co-Owner and Director of Science Of Fitness with an Undergraduate degree in Exercise Science and Masters degree in High Performance, the podcast includes guests and friends of SOF from all walks of life sharing their knowledge and stories within their field of expertise.
Join us as we provide listeners with digestible and relatable educational tools and entertaining stories to inspire a healthier and more fulfilling life.
The Science of Fitness Podcast
Verve - How Quality Gym Equipment Transforms Training With Niall Wogan
What separates exceptional fitness equipment from merely functional gear? According to Niall Wogan, founder and CEO of Verve Fitness, it's the perfect blend of stunning aesthetics, rock-solid functionality, and customer service that actually cares.
In this fascinating conversation, Niall shares his global entrepreneurial journey that spans continents—from Ireland to South Africa to Los Angeles and finally Australia's Gold Coast. With refreshing candour, he reveals how Verve was born from a simple observation: gym owners were stuck choosing between low-quality equipment with poor service or premium gear delivered with arrogance. The market needed someone to do the simple things exceptionally well.
Niall takes us behind the scenes of product development at Verve, explaining how collaborating with a former Nike designer revolutionised their equipment's form and function. "If something looks really attractive and alluring, you're drawn to it and want to use it more," he explains, challenging the "weight is just weight" mindset that overlooks how the environment impacts training motivation. This philosophy manifests in thoughtful design choices like their signature power racks—built as "racks for life" with an ecosystem of attachments that grow with your training journey.
The conversation takes a personal turn when Niall shares his own fitness regimen, including his recent foray into Brazilian jiu-jitsu and his unwavering commitment to daily ice baths. "It's non-negotiable," he explains, describing how this practice builds mental toughness that translates to business challenges. His experiment with daily saunas yielded surprising performance improvements in his 5K run times—concrete evidence of how recovery modalities can enhance performance.
Looking toward the future, Niall sees personalisation as the defining trend in fitness—a shift from merely "getting a sweat going" to caring for the whole person. This vision aligns perfectly with Verve's ethos of creating equipment that not only functions flawlessly but inspires users to become greater than they were yesterday.
For anyone building a gym or considering entrepreneurship in the fitness space, this episode delivers practical wisdom wrapped in genuine passion. As Niall puts it, success comes from being clear on your "why"—because when challenges inevitably arise, that purpose will sustain you through the toughest decisions.
Ready to transform your training environment or business approach? Press play and discover how doing the simple things extraordinarily well might be the innovation you've been seeking.
Welcome to the Science of Fitness podcast, where we aim to inspire you to live a healthier and more fulfilling life, as we share evidence and anecdotes on all things relating to health, fitness, performance, business and wellness. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to the Science of Fitness podcast. I've got the CEO, the founder and the owner of Verve Fitness, niall Wogan. Welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1:Niall, your equipment has decked you. Very much Pleasure to be here, niall. Your equipment has decked out our platinum facility downstairs, mate, and it gets raving reviews every time someone walks in here two years later. So, first and foremost, I want to say a big thank you, mate. We are really grateful for one, the quality of what you produce, but also, I guess, um, the actual aesthetic that comes with gym equipment, which I think goes with, uh, a little bit less notice than people think, but you can see it when it's not so sexy. So, um, before I get carried away and we go into the nuance of equipment, let's go through the rapid fire. Let's get the juices flowing for both of us and the listeners. Um, I want one word answers for the following questions and do your best. I know this is a tough ask and we'll see how you go. So, first and foremost, what's the future of the fitness industry?
Speaker 2:Personalization.
Speaker 1:Good, good start. Biggest mistake you've seen fitness startups make.
Speaker 2:Be homogenous Good again.
Speaker 1:This is excellent. Most underrated training tool in your opinion? All-in-one functional trainer. Your leadership style in one word Inspirational. Great Verve's brand. In one word aspirational essential traits for longevity. Your opinion again consistency, good. Um, what drives you, what motivates you? Impact, yeah, nice, and then don't want to be too negative. But what scares you in business? Spagnation, good. And then, what excites you the most about business? Lighting people up, yeah, brilliant, sweet. Okay, now you can give me long answers.
Speaker 1:You're off the hook, let's go into it. So you know your founding vision and and business philosophy. Um, even before we get there, I want I want to talk about your experience. You know going into, um, I guess, what is quite an entrepreneurial world. Um, you grew up in ireland, yeah, um, you know what sort of gave you this entrepreneurial mindset that you sort of seem to ooze of shaking your hand and looked at a few things and online of you and it just sort of oozes out of you. So talk me through it.
Speaker 2:I just love doing a great job whatever's in front of me. So I didn't set out. I wasn't, as a kid thinking, oh, one day I'll have a fitness equipment brand. I was going to gyms. I was going around gyms and chatting to the gym owners and, you know, listening to what their concerns were and a lot of them were complaining it was difficult to get a good fitness equipment provider.
Speaker 2:You know, on the lower end you got the low cost, you got the lower specification which usually came with bad service. On the very upper end of the market there was, you know, premium gear which was fantastic. Very upper end of the market there was, you know, premium gear which was fantastic, but a lot of it came with arrogance, attitude, bad service. You're lucky to be dealing with us and I was listening to all these gym owners and I was thinking you know, why isn't there a brand with equipment that, first of all, it looks fantastic and it functions really well, it's built to last and it's delivered with a good attitude and outstanding customer service? You know, this isn't terribly complex to do all the simple things really, really well. And and that's where the inspiration came from- yeah, wow, that's um man.
Speaker 1:It sums up at least our experience with verb that thus far. So you, you know you guys are delivering what you, what I guess you set out to do, which is no mean feat, I think. Let's go back before Verve. You know what was your experience in terms of entrepreneurial world? You know what sort of were you doing before you really got into this space?
Speaker 2:I came out, I did high school, I went to college, didn't really know what I wanted to do and I just got. For me was just this determination. They probably saw here's a kid, you give him any job and he's just going to go with it and do his best. Let's send him out to South Africa. Wow, I can remember one time it was like a Friday evening, I was free and single. I was about to leave the office one Friday evening and one of the directors called me aside and said oh Niall, we're thinking of someone you know setting up the South African end and we're looking at making a trip out next Tuesday. You know, what would you think of that? I'm like, yeah, I'm up for it. I was on a plane a few days later. Wow, yeah.
Speaker 1:Where did you go? Where did you land? First Johannesburg, okay, and your setup was in.
Speaker 2:Johannesburg. Yeah, this way, yeah, yeah, okay, um loved lots of that experience. Um, you know that country has its problems, um, if it didn't have those problems, I might still be there today, but um had a great time there. I um ended up. You know that that company went through the dot-com crash. I ended up coming back to ireland and then missing the climate of south africa, yeah, um, and I was like you know where's a really happening place at the moment where you've got great climate, and I went to LA.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, Pretty cool. Lived there for a couple of years, met my wife over there. We lived there a couple of years. We ended up coming back to Ireland. Okay, we looked at a good place to raise a family and after quite a few years we were like no, we want some warm climate again.
Speaker 1:Some sunshine, we want sunshine.
Speaker 2:We want to live in the sunshine, we want to wear shorts in winter.
Speaker 1:Have a hot summer and then a cool summer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and then we came out to Gold Coast.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, mate, what a story. So how long did you spend in South Africa? I was just there for a year, okay, all right, so it's a short and sweet, yeah, okay. And then LA. You were there for a little longer, a couple of years in LA, okay, and doing same sort of work within the tech sort of space or going to some entrepreneurial type of things.
Speaker 2:I was actually a writer with the Journal of Longevity in LA, so that was a journal that was focused on health supplements, the whole longevity area. When what?
Speaker 1:era was this? When was this?
Speaker 2:Oh, this was the early to mid 2000s.
Speaker 1:So you were a good 20 plus years ahead of the game.
Speaker 2:I just always loved this area. I can remember I went and interviewed for the job and I was underqualified. And I had my first interview and interviewed for the job and I was underqualified. Yeah, and I had my first interview and I made a good first impression on the guy and I could tell we had good rapport and he gave me a job. He said you know, I'm going to call you back for next interview and he gave me a task and as he was, as I was walking out the door, he said impress me. So I left that interview. I stayed up all night working on that task. I did nothing, I did not sleep. I did the best possible job I could. I walked back into his office the next day with it complete and I got the job.
Speaker 1:Wow there you go For anyone aspiring for a dream job. That's the attitude you got to have. That's really interesting that you've done this sort of multi-country thing. I mean and I say this on the podcast and you know, get given stick about it often but you know, I was brought up in Zimbabwe, lived in South Africa and then we moved here and you know, I think, through all its challenges that it has moving, the best thing I learned was kind of being a chameleon and fitting into a new place and you know, learning new cultures and new people with that, which I'm sure you've probably, you know, observed a lot in your own sort of time. How has that sort of shaped, I guess, your attitude towards, you know, setting yourself up in the Gold Coast and then, you know, launching into this company?
Speaker 2:It gives me a very international view. So I don't, you know, I'm not particularly nationalistic, so I don't you know I'm not particularly nationalistic, so I take a global view to as many things as possible. And you know people around the world. You know everyone just wants to be loved. Yeah, everyone, you know, just trying to do the best where they are. And you see that, regardless of where you are, when you are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, okay, cool, so let's get into Verve. So you guys kicked off formally in 2017. Yep, how long was that itch, you know, developing before you really got to scratch it in terms of I'm going to go do this.
Speaker 2:About a year and a half or so, okay, and just you know, getting feedback from gym owners, talking to gym owners before really getting into it. But it was more 2019 when we got going in Gold Coast in Australia and really kicked it off hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then really went hard. So you know, off it went and then COVID hits. So how was sort of navigating all that? I think there was probably a lot of positives from your side in terms of, I guess, the home gym side of business, but how did all that go? Very quickly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know we were doing really well before COVID. You know, I was so happy with how the business was growing really rapidly. And you know, business got really quiet for about a month before the gyms closed and I was thinking, oh, things have gone really quiet, I've got a warehouse full of gym equipment. What a time in history to be stuck with a warehouse full of gym equipment when the market's not buying. And then, you know, the prime minister closes all the gyms and literally I look at my phone and Shopify orders are just ding, ding, ding.
Speaker 2:And it was. It was like watching a movie in Vegas and someone hits the jackpot and it's ding, ding, ding. And you know, we did a crazy amount of revenue in a few hours. And it was like texting around a few people in the company guys, come in early tomorrow, bring mates, we're starting early, we're working late and we just made our way through it and we made mistakes. But one thing that was always important to us was to not let customers down. Um, and if we made a mistake, to fix it really quickly. Um, we, you know, we we made a lot of mistakes during covid and we gave a huge amount of refunds if we did something wrong, we just refunded.
Speaker 2:We refunded people too quickly and we sometimes we even refund the people who got delivery of goods yeah and because we always erred on the side of taking care of customers, because taking care of customers was at the core of what we do, um, and we sometimes went too far on that. But yeah, that was critical to us that a lot of gym equipment companies were getting a bad name for not doing things right and we said you know what? We're going to come out of this with a better reputation, yeah Well yeah, it's, um, it's, it's a perfect attitude to have.
Speaker 1:You know, it's an, as everyone says, business-wise. It's sort of customer first, and what does that actually look like, particularly in this online world? You know, there's there's deliverables and there's, you know, identifying mistakes and doing your best to sort of fix them. At the end of the day, there's there's a human to human element with the transaction, whether there's an internet sort of online purchase or not. So that's really interesting. So, you know, I think the customer care element is a big priority for you guys.
Speaker 2:What are the other sort of philosophical um you know cornerstones that you you stand behind with the business well, yeah, care, as you said, is the big one and it's. You know, we have our Verve values and care is the first one, and sometimes that can sound like corporate BS. Everyone says they care, but if you look at our reviews, you go on Trustpilot and you do a filter by our reviews and type in the word care really cares. The people there really care. Everyone I spoke to care. It's obvious that these people care.
Speaker 2:So when people start with verve, I say our brand isn't some things I talk about, meaning our brand is what our customers say about us. Yeah, and that is the most important thing. So what we read about what customers say, that's that shows what a good, what a job we're doing. So care is really important and humility is really important as well. Sometimes, when companies get really successful, they can get difficult to deal with. They can get arrogant. They don't want to take care of you in the same way anymore. So it's very important to us to maintain humility. So, regardless of how great things are going, we treat everyone internally with humility and our customers, and that's really important.
Speaker 2:Another one is discipline, and you know we define that as we do what we say, we'll do so if we tell someone they're going to get their equipment in four weeks for their gym opening. That means because we can see in our system exactly when it's arriving, we know when the boat's coming, we know where things are every step of the way. We don't just make things up. We do what we say, we'll do, we we've. We hear all the time, uh, stories about gym owners coming to us oh, whatever company, let us down. They told us, um, we're going to get our equipment in eight weeks. It's 25 weeks later.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I still haven't get it. I'm chasing them. You know, I've had to delay my gym opening. I'm losing money on rent. I've got staff and with us we. We know where are we. We use very extensive it systems. We spend way too much money on it. Um, because you can't just say you care for customers and then not back it up. Yeah, you've got to make sure your whole system and your system, your people, everything about the company and culture can, can back up that care. Yeah, so our it is is top notch part of that in making sure.
Speaker 2:But if we say we'll have the gear in four weeks, um, that means we got it in four weeks. So discipline we do, we say we do is something that's really important, and another one is enjoyment. So we don't enjoy what we do. You know, in in our office we got like a pull-up bar and bench press. So often, um, I'll hear something banging and it's one of the guys or girls just gotten up from their desk to go over and knock out a few reps yeah and um yeah, we put that in every office.
Speaker 1:We have a bit of manager and I I get up.
Speaker 2:You know I like to get up a few times a day and just go over and knock out some pull-ups. There's nothing better, honestly Just get a quick pump, get off your desk and then go back to work.
Speaker 1:Well, it's like having a shot of coffee without you know the wash-up of over-caffeinating yourself.
Speaker 2:We're putting an ice bath into the warehouse as well at the moment.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, ones off, they go, kind of thing. Yeah, nice, I like that. Um, um, let's sort of stay on. Um, I guess the sort of cultural vibe thing that you guys are, you know, really standing true because, as you said, you know you can have all these values and a lot of companies do and startups and small businesses do but following them up with action is, you know, the actual hard part and it's something we're sort of discussing internally here is what's hard. You know what's what's not. Um, it's, it's not complicated, but it's hard because it just requires the due diligence of stepping in and doing exactly what you said.
Speaker 1:Um, what sort of work are you guys doing to sort of manage that? What are some of the internal little things, be it meetings, be it just because it sort of snowballs, right, it's a. If you sort of start to get good momentum, it goes positively and it can go in the wrong direction as well. You've obviously worked in environments like this for a while. What are some of the little things you guys are doing internally just to keep that?
Speaker 2:momentum going In terms of meetings. I'm not a huge fan of too many meetings. I worked with ABB years ago. They're with 100,000 people in 100 countries and amazing company. They do lots of great things in helping people, but there's a lot of meetings and you could be sitting in a meeting for an hour. You don't even need to be there, and I like standing meetings.
Speaker 2:In a standing meeting, you can get to the point quicker. We don't hang around too long and I like to keep meetings quickly and to the point quicker. We don't hang around too long and I like to keep meetings quickly into the point. Sometimes, if a meeting has gone in a certain direction and someone's not necessary, I'll say, hey, you don't need to be here, you can just pop out and they're like, oh yeah, thanks, Because they got stuff to do and they don't want to sit. I like the Elon Musk approach of you know, don't be in a meeting you don't need to be in. So yeah, I watch meetings that we don't go on too long about too many things and you know simple things, just writing down what we need to do and doing it and then just following up to make sure it's done.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and it's so simple as that, right, but it's just doing it. Yeah, really interesting. So let's dive to the product. How as that? Right, but it's just doing it. Really interesting, so let's dive to the product. How did it all start? Was it we're going to get some dumbbells and some benches and we're going to start there? Or was it? Here's the catalogue of equipment that you've identified by, you know, doing your market research, and we're going to build that out, and then off we go. How did that all sort of kick off?
Speaker 2:As you said there, it was looking at the catalogue of equipment that was needed for a functional fitness gym and working on developing that. And then, within a couple of years, as we got bigger and stronger, we hired a designer from Nike, a guy who had spent six years in Portland Oregon, and we started redesigning all of our equipment from an aesthetic and a functional point of view. So we the aesthetic is really important. Yeah, it means different things to different people. So there's some people that just say weight is weight. You know, give me weight plates that are made from concrete and weight is weight.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter once you're lifting, and that's correct, that's true and that will work for a certain percentage of people. But a lot of people will want something in their life that looks good. You know, they want to buy a car that they like, and if something looks really attractive and alluring, you're more drawn to it and you want to use it more. So we, you know, I like to think that a piece of Verve equipment. You look at it and you're like, wow, I just want that in my life, I want that in my gym. Like when I walked into your gym downstairs, I was. I just want that in my life.
Speaker 2:I want that in my gym, like when I walked into your gym downstairs, I loved to see how great it still looks a few years after getting some very heavy usage. And when we were designing our products I'd say, you know, how will this look in five years? Will this still look great? I was looking around the gym and there was one. I saw a safety squat bar and from the distance it had a similar shape to ours and it looked all beat up. I was like, oh, a piece of equipment doesn't look great. And then, as I got closer, I realised it wasn't ours. I was relieved, just so I relieved.
Speaker 2:But it's very important to us that, yeah, the aesthetic, but not just the aesthetic, but even the build. You know, I give the example of our dip attachment for our racks. So most dip attachments are made from a. You know, you've got a cylinder, you got a cylinder, you get a rectangular and they're all welded together and that's how pretty much everyone is built. And then you got all these other bits welded together the verb dip attachment just one singular bent piece of metal with another folded piece of metal that it joins onto um and it.
Speaker 2:I'd like to think that it helps you get that singular focus on your movement. You know, maybe we're getting a little bit away from the weight is weight thing here, but I like simplicity of design and to use as few parts as possible. Keep things as simple as possible and have this clean flow. Use as few parts as possible, keep things as simple as possible and have this clean flow, because your training needs to be a space where you are really engaged in the moment. So everything that helps you be in that moment, everything that helps you be at one with the moment, we want to work towards that.
Speaker 1:Totally and it speaks volumes. You go online and you think about how much digital companies put into ux and ui and having good interface and good design, and it generates way better outcomes from a you know business or a sales metric perspective. So you know, when it does come to training, it's it's as, as you just mentioned, for us, particularly downstairs, every time someone walks in they compliment us on the gym and we didn't you know a million bucks on the place and make it really, really sexy in the nicest gym. By no means is it the fanciest brand in Brisbane, let alone the country. But that being said, people still feel that. So you know, again, it's those little, and some of the ones I've identified are just the softer edges on the racks and just those sort of small touches that go such a long way. That may not be noticed, but they're noticed if they're not there. It's sort of like waking up and making your bed. You know, no one notices that you've made your bed, but if your bed's unmade, people will notice.
Speaker 2:Sort, of thing. But you've described exactly why we do what we do. So it brings joy to my heart to hear you say that. You know people walk into the gym and they just admire the space. They admire how well the equipment looks, even after it's taken a beating for a couple of years. So that helps you with your membership. That helps people. You know, if someone goes into a gym and everything looks all beat up and tattered, they're not as inspired Most of them. Okay, again, there's someone up where they just say wait, wait. But the majority are not as inspired. They don't feel like it's as pleasant a space to be in. But your gym it's all kid out with verve. Yeah, it's been a couple of years, it's, it's been really well used, but it still looks amazing and I would like to think that helps you. Um for a business perspective from a business percent.
Speaker 2:It helps your membership. Your members are more energized coming in here and um they're more likely to be here and, ideally, to get better results as well. We even put the be greater than symbol on the side of our products, because it's not just about having a bigger bicep or having a bigger lift. It's about you being greater yourself compared to what you were yesterday.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. As I said on the sort of research before this episode, I sort of found that. So talk us through that. So you've got that sort of symbol, the mathematical symbol of greater than, and so you've taken the v of verve and turned it on its side yep which came first verve. Okay, so the name came first, and then you know, I just love the little innovative design things that go into the whole picture.
Speaker 2:People ask me why the name verve. You know it means energy, vigor, vitality, talent, yeah, which I think is just the perfect name for why someone gets into fitness.
Speaker 1:Gets into fitness, gets into the gym. And yeah, you know, I say it all the time it doesn't matter how good your program is as long as it's done. And so every little element and this is probably a message to other gym owners and people out there every little element that goes into motivating you to do the damn thing is really important. What message do you have for those looking to set up their home gym that have probably set one up before or have got a mate that set one up, that it just collects dust and doesn't get used that well? What are sort of key points of equipment and main considerations for those individuals?
Speaker 2:The equipment that you like using is. So it's a bit. You know the exercise that you do is the best one to do. You know someone asks what? So it would be like that equipment. So what's the exercise that you most like to do? No, the default thing most people like is a power rack because they can do their bench press, their squats, pull-ups, put all sorts of attachments onto it. And then some people just like to get a rower. You know they're short on time. They just want to knock out a quick 20 minute row, get a sweat going.
Speaker 2:But it's really about the exercise that you like doing and it doesn't have. You know, some people think do I get a home gym or do I go to a commercial gym? And it doesn't have to be an either or at all. A lot of people use hybrid. So they go to a commercial gym for the community. They go to group classes because they'll get coaching and then maybe their schedule doesn't allow them to get in as much as possible and then they'll have some equipment at home as well. Maybe they like to spend. You know, something I like is to spend longer on a Sunday, just on a Sunday morning, you know, working on deadlifts, for example, where it's harder to do in a group class to really take your time loading, unloading, but at home you can take your time On a Sunday, you've got that 90-minute session available.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it doesn't have to be an either or, and the hybrid can work really well for a lot of people. Yeah, it's funny because some of our you know best trained members and and probably you know members that are attending here the most also have a home gym. Um, for exactly those reasons, they just may not get that opportunity on a saturday. There's kids sport all day, so they, you know, just do a little something at home, just sort of tick the box and then carry on. So, yeah, that's very interesting. Um, let's go to your training. You mentioned sort of deadlift sessions. What is, what has your training in the past look like, and and how does it sort of shape what you do? And then, you know, we can talk about how you might integrate a bit of that into the equipment and the product you're designing and using.
Speaker 2:I've been doing CrossFit for years Now. Last year I started doing, I took a total change into doing jujitsu. Oh, wow. So I was thinking, you know, since I was a kid I wanted to learn martial arts. So I'm thinking, now or never, why the heck not? I used to pick up my son from doing ju Jitsu and I'll be sitting up on the steps, you know, collecting him after class and seeing all these guys down doing it you know, middle aged guys or younger guys and thinking I could never do that. And then I was like, why the heck not? Why not? Never too late, never too late, yeah. So I've started doing that. So Brazilian jiu-jitsu, muay Thai, mma.
Speaker 1:Oh, so the whole lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, combat, and that's a lot of fun. You get different types of injuries and it gives you a different type of fitness, different type of agility. Then at home, you know I like using, you know barbell work you know deadlifts, pull-ups, rower exercise bike.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you're getting a solid sort of strength base in. Yep.
Speaker 2:And I'll do runs as well.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:My favorite thing lately this year has. It just sounds like bandwagon. But ice baths, okay, I started on January 3rd. I got an ice bath at home, yep, and I've been doing one every day. Wow, and it's a non-negotiable Okay. I just I'm not getting up in the morning. Will I do it, will I not? No, I'm doing it First thing, just go, normally, it's first thing. Sometimes I might have to leave the kids to swimming or something and I may not get in first thing, but if I haven't, it could be five, six, 7pm. I'm still doing it. I'm not finishing the day without doing the ice bath. And yeah, it's hard.
Speaker 2:And I was talking to Simon Beard, the founder of Culture Kings, and he mentioned, I think he said he got one six years ago and he's done one every single day. And I was like, really, and I said, is there every day? You felt like not doing one and he's like, yep, every day. But his attitude was I just do it for mental strength and that I'm doing this and I'm gonna do it. So I took on that attitude of make it non-negotiable, do it every day and it's been unbelievable and I just find throughout the day sometimes I'm doing something that's difficult and it clicks into my mind hold on, you do an ice bath every day. That's hard, yeah, right?
Speaker 1:So you can do this. It's so funny and I get hammered with questions all the time. Oh you know, should I do ice baths? Should I do it for recovery? What should I do? And I'm like, if I'm going to no evidence to say it really does that much not? No, sorry, there's evidence, but it's great, it's not clear. But if you want to build some psychological endurance, mental toughness, some ability to handle, you know there, right there, and then go jump in an ice bath in whatever moment, at whatever point through the day and and from a neurological perspective, it's actually observe how you respond, you know, and then control that response. Use your higher order thinking, control the autonomics, control your body, breathe whatever it might be, and in doing so you develop the skill right and you know a lot of people get their dopamine hit from scrolling on their phone.
Speaker 2:Um, this will give you a 250 dopamine hit that lasts for hours, so it's a much better way to get that hit and it jack jacks you up.
Speaker 1:So.
Speaker 2:I don't do it for recovery. I used to think ice baths were just for recovery. Okay, you know, I'd see the CrossFit athletes getting into them after a tough workout and thinking, for recovery, yeah, I'm not at that level, I'm not going to do an ice bath, okay. And when I realized it was about feeling sharp mentally feeling switched on um and asking the question of yourself right, yeah, so then it pulls you in to be really present.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, oh you, you can't not be present yeah, and I've got a ritual I play the same song every time. I say I play it's a beautiful day by mike posner. Yeah, and funny. When I actually met mike posner in february and, um, I was like hey, mike, by the way, just you know, I, uh, I take an ice bath every morning and I play your song beautifully every single time, and I realized he's a Wim Hof instructor. Is he really? He is huge into ice baths, wow.
Speaker 1:He's got quite an interesting story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but health is a big thing for him and he, you know, he takes an ice bath every day and he is a huge, huge advocate of ice baths.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ice bath every day and he is a huge, huge advocate of ice baths.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very interesting.
Speaker 1:I mean, as I mentioned, downstairs we run a breathing class, um, and, and that really got brought up the motive was mainly for our female clients and a lot of them were struggling with pelvic pain during training and I sort of went down a rabbit hole and working out how the diaphragm is connected with the deep abdominals and so forth.
Speaker 1:But, um, now that's turned into one of the breathing and the breath work has turned into probably one of our most consistent sessions and it gets all walks of life in terms of our fittest, strongest, best adherence, hardest trainers, right through to the new people that just want to come and, you know, gather themselves, settle themselves and do that sort of breath work. So, you know, I always say this to people there's going to be a lever that you want to pull on and it might be a nice bath, might be that weekly massage, it might be doing some breath work, pick what works and then stick at it. And stick at it when you don't feel like it, and you know, if every day it's like it is hard, there's going to be an element that is, you know it's easier to sit back, pull your phone out, do whatever, um, but you want to do those things that do require a bit of due diligence, a bit of take that time, be present in it, and the rewards you reap after are just sort of endless.
Speaker 2:There are some times I'm actually looking forward to getting in the ice bath because I know how great I'm going to feel afterwards. And then there's times that I'm not looking forward to getting in it. But I'm doing it, you're doing it and I know I'm doing it, and that gives me more mental strength as well.
Speaker 1:Absolutely and it sort of coincides with you know those things we talked about in terms of business values and you know doing those things that you said you're going to follow up having that discipline and it's a skill and I think the more you walk down that nerve path, the more you play the guitar, the better you get at it, sort of thing.
Speaker 2:It's practicing things you know. Along with ice spots, I've started doing a lot of saunas as well. Okay, I did an interesting experiment in um april. I I do 5k park runs and um I took a sauna every single day in in april and every single saturday in april I got a pb on my park. Wow, I'm not a fantastic runner but for the level I'm at, you know I'd stalled quite a bit in my progress in running and taking a sauna every day. I was, you know. One day I took 50 seconds off.
Speaker 2:I was like how the heck did that happen? It must be a fluke the next week. I take 20 seconds off like what's going on here? I don't know. That's just, you know, anecdotal, yeah, but maybe there's something in the way it simulates, uh, additional cardiovascular exercise in your body. I don't know there you go.
Speaker 1:You've just said it, that's exactly it. And a lot of the heat shock, protein sort of stuff that they're talking about in terms of longevity. With the sauna it's induced very similarly through longer endurance based sort of cardiovascular exercise. So, you know, everyone says, should I do sauna? It's got all this positive. I'm like, if you've got the time and the capacity to do it, do it. You know, absolutely, because it can create a better cardiovascular response. So if you, where you're doing a bit of the strength work, cardio work and this sort of stuff, you're probably going to see that shift.
Speaker 2:It surprised me by seeing it in hard numbers. In hard numbers for once. Yeah, yeah, yeah, very real.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's very interesting Now. So how much of your own training, your own health journey has shaped some of the design, the products, the entire decisions around sort of Verve's product list and where you see it going?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that does have an impact. I you know, when I get more excited about a product, I'm more likely to go and want to work on it.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So you know, during COVID, when I was doing more home gym work, we put a huge amount of effort into having the biggest selection of attachments for racks in Australia. So we looked at how could we make the best power rack or how we could have the best ecosystem for power racks in Australia. So you buy a Verve power rack. It's a rack for life. It's like a super thick steel, rock solid, and you've got the west side hole spacing. But not only that, there's so many attachments you could put onto it.
Speaker 2:So whatever workout you might decide to do in five, ten years time, you can buy an attachment that will help you do that. So it just makes the decision of what power rack to buy really easy. So that was something that we've, we put a huge amount of effort into and we continue to work on. So you buy a power rack, you never have to think about buying a rack again. Okay, um, the other one at the moment is the functional trainers, so they become more popular in functional fitness gyms where you've got the cable stack that's built into a rig okay, so built into a power rack and that's your tory.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, all right, yeah, okay, yeah, that that one. I remember seeing, seeing that recently and I was like, oh, if that, when did you guys launch that product?
Speaker 2:Oh, about a year and a half ago, about a year and a half.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you know, probably we'd just missed that window and that has a cable machine and we don't have space to put a cable machine in, and it was such a conundrum for us. And then a few months later, so it's probably on the menu for us.
Speaker 2:So we see a lot of gyms that will have a rig like a traditional rig, but every station they will have another cable machine built in, so it's not taking up any additional gym space. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so, for example, the Power Rack we've bought from Verve, the Like, we've bought from Verve, the attachment, you can actually put a cable rig within that. Or is that sort of now something you've innovated into the new ones?
Speaker 2:It can be attached to the side of it, yeah, okay, but with a rig it can be put inside the rig. Okay, and that, from a space perspective, is everything, absolutely which is such an important factor.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people forget about it, and this is both in home gyms and commercial gyms. Um, space on the floor is so valuable. Real estate, real estate it's. It's, it's being able to do your foam rolling and your your mat work and you know some of your running based stuff and your jumping based stuff. You need space and if you've got racks and rigs and cables and everything in the way, it sort of almost compromises your training experience and you feel like you have to be in a machine to train. It's sort of like the floor's a pretty, pretty useful tool. Um, and then being able to have, you know, still, the load and and that sort of thing. Um, complementing it from the customer feedback and sort of customer experience perspective, um, what have you guys sort of integrated to help use that information to shape your product development?
Speaker 2:we got to listen to customers all the time. Um, I say to the team you know it's not me that pays your wages, it's the customers. So we got to listen to everything they say. You know we will get lots of off the wall ideas here and there on different products people might request, but when we see a consistent trend of something that people are looking at, we put more attention on it. Or, you know, I like to listen to podcasts and, you know, follow what's happening in the industry and look at product development that way, seeing what are the up and coming trends that people are looking for. But, yeah, customer feedback is a huge, huge part of it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely for. But yeah, customer feedback is a huge, huge part of it. Absolutely. You mentioned sort of future of the fitness industry being personalization.
Speaker 2:Where do you see it going. Let's unpack that a little bit More into taking care of you as a whole person as opposed to just do a workout. Okay, so you know clubs that will. You know, integrate physio. You know, look at your body mass kind of like what you were talking about here earlier about getting specialists in here to help track someone's health and, you know, taking greater care of people. Completely. It's interesting. I've been seeing related to that over in new york and you know they've got these clubs. So instead of you know a dark nightclub where people are popping pills and getting off their heads, they're doing ice baths and saunas, wow so it's like nightclub?
Speaker 2:well, it's not, it's not a nightclub, but it almost looks, and feels like it looks and feels like a nightclub the lighting and the whole vibe but it's ice baths and saunas and that's you know. People are getting more into this than they ever were before, and what he does is not for everyone, but it's getting a lot more people to think about. What are the things I can do to live better, to live longer?
Speaker 1:Yeah, fascinating. And within the equipment sort of health and fitness, gym equipment space particularly, what do you sort of see that's going to get developed in line with that sort of trajectory that the industry might be on?
Speaker 2:There's a lot of research coming out at the moment related to everything that he is doing. You know we got the likes of Huberman talks about these things all the time and you know that has driven a lot of the interest in things like ice baths and saunas. More things are becoming, you know, interesting, like red light therapy is something that's coming up, and anything to do with let's take care of the whole person, not just let's get a sweat going is becoming more and more important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and that's where the sort of products are going to start to lean towards. Yeah, absolutely yeah, very interesting um in terms of, um, you know, sort of diving into, uh, I guess, the entrepreneurship side of the fitness industry. You know, you've gone in um and by all means done a really good job. You've linked yourself up with some pretty high level of sports clubs and sporting organizations, um, touched into the, you know, commercial side, and then also the personalization sort of individual home gym type of thing In terms of, I guess, navigating that entrepreneurial sort of mindset. Was there a particular strategy you wanted to sort of set out with and how did you sort of come up with where you wanted to take the brand early on, and has it gone in that direction?
Speaker 2:It starts with a vision. Okay, and maybe a little bit of craziness and a little bit of seeing the world in a different way. Entrepreneurship is not for everybody. It's difficult. It's difficult because you're entering a market that's already largely satisfied. You've got incumbents that are doing what they do for years. You enter as a new you, you know you're seen as an upstart and you know you've got all these challenges. You know on day one you're losing money. So the first battle is stop losing money.
Speaker 2:And so it starts with a vision. And it starts with why do you do what you do? And that's a question I ask myself every day. I I say to our team every week I said I ask all the time why do we do what we do? I look at our customer reviews. I look at what a great job we're doing with customers, how happy they are, and I read every review that comes in and it lights me up to see when people love using the equipment, when it's when it's made their day better. So you know, I see that when customers come to us they're well taken care of and that makes their day better. So that's why we do what we do.
Speaker 2:And so it starts with a vision and we always had that vision to be absolutely outstanding at what we do. Equipment that looks fantastic, functions really well, really well built. Will you know a rack rig that'll last a lifetime and people will love using. And we've got that inspirational message built in in terms of focus on be greater than. Sometimes I could be going down for a deadlift. I look, I'm tired. I've done a lot of reps and I'm almost wondering have I got the strength for this one? I'll look at the side of the weight plate and I'll just see be greater than?
Speaker 2:yep, okay, I've got to be greater than this I've got to be greater than my excuse that I can't do this.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's our vision to really help gym owners retain more clients because the gear looks so well and home gym owners love the gear so much they want to use it more, yeah, and they train more, yeah and have massive positive wash up effect.
Speaker 1:Um, what do you think the sort of biggest misconceptions people have about running a business in the fitness industry?
Speaker 2:they think it's easy. Good, good, good answer. I probably could have told you that they think it's easy. A lot of people think they can. You know, just go on the internet, buy something from China and launch a fitness brand and you know we see a lot of companies come and go, a lot of companies that make promises they can't keep, and it's a lot more challenging than people think it is. But it's a fantastic business to work in because you are helping people in a really positive area of their life and you get to see them grow from a physical fitness point of view. Normally that's gonna impact their mental health, how they feel, so it's.
Speaker 1:I can't think of a better industry to work in than fitness yeah, it's a good point and you know you're probably sitting there and I can only imagine the logistical issues you have to navigate with the actual weight of fitness equipment. I think everyone probably doesn't have much of an idea. When you're moving, you know, 10 kilo plates, that's a ton of weight and that's probably not even half of a gym's total mass that you're moving. So I can only imagine the roadblocks and hurdles you've got to overcome all the time.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter what business you work in. You've got to manage your emotions because you know one day everything's going amazing, you're on top of the world. You know, 20 minutes later, all these problems start popping up and you've got to make sure that you don't get carried away when things are great. You've got to make sure that you know when it looks like everything's going wrong. You still keep centered and you still keep calm about the situation, you don't exaggerate, you don't make it worse than it appears to be. And people are telling you this is wrong, this is wrong, and you you just look at the situation as it is and say, okay, this is what's happening. What's the outcome I want? What are the different ways we can achieve that outcome, to solve the problem, and that can just help calm a lot of the noise. And the noise can be coming from people who are really close to the problem and passionate about fixing it, and it can be very well intended, noise it, it, and it can be very easy.
Speaker 2:It's well-intended noise, absolutely, and it can be very easy to get wrapped up in that. But it's very important to you know see things exactly as they are not better, not worse and then look at what's the outcome I want and what are the different ways we could look at achieving that outcome. And your mind can be very creative when you ask it the right questions. When someone comes in and says, oh, this is wrong, this is wrong, sometimes people will start saying, you know, pointing at all these problems, problems, problems. But if you start asking you know, what are the ways we can solve this, what might we do here, what might work? We can't see the answer just yet, but what might it look like? Your mind can be very creative in coming up with problems. You know, 10 seconds later you can have a, you know, a really cool solution you didn't think existed. Yeah, you'll be standing in the shower.
Speaker 1:That's it, I've got it. You get on your phone with a towel around your waist and solving the business problems. In line with that, what advice are you going to give to an aspiring entrepreneur looking to create something impactful?
Speaker 2:something special in the health health space. Be clear on why you're doing it. Okay, because it will be tough. There will be days when you question yourself. There will be days when you think, whoa, this is too hard. There will be days when everything's going wrong. But when you know why you're doing it, um, all of that seems a lot easier and it becomes manageable. Yeah, and that that's what inspires you, that's what drives you yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I think it's.
Speaker 1:it's interesting, you know, tying it all together and coming back to some of the foundational areas that I think you guys identified as an opportunity in the market. Um, health and fitness either, has this really cheap, low cost, poor quality equipment right through to gym type membership available, and then the really high end snobby almost exclusive, I guess, solution, but probably unaffordable for a lot of people that want it and landing dead set in the middle, how are you finding, navigating that Obviously the cost in shipping and all that sort of thing and just staying true to that ethos as to your why, how often do you find yourself stopping, going back to that centering point, answering that question to yourself and then bringing that back to the team? Is that something you guys are doing really regularly when all those challenges arise?
Speaker 2:Look, those challenges happen every hour of the day and if you want, if you're looking for the cheapest equipment, verve is not your supply partner.
Speaker 2:There is other people who can do things cheaper by not having the IT system that will deliver when it says it does, not having the specification, not having it designed as well, not having as much inventory and stock ready to dispatch quickly, not having the culture and training around giving that. So if you want the cheapest, verve is not for you. A funny story I remember when I first got here and I was setting up the company in Australia and I met with an accountant that was recommended to me, lovely guy, and he said, niall, tell me about the business you're setting up. And I said, yeah, yeah, the gym equipment business. And he said you know what's different about your business? And I explained you know how we're going to have equipment that looks fantastic, really well specified, delivered with outstanding customer service, add good value for what it is, and I'm going to do that really well he was looking at me really worried and he was looking at me like that's not enough and I got a text from him the next day Niall, is there something?
Speaker 2:is there a new product you can bring in? That would be different, because he didn't think that what I was talking about was enough and we grew really fast and he came in about you know, he was in about a year later and he saw what we were doing about you know, he was in about a year later and he saw what we were doing and he was just blown away.
Speaker 1:That doing the simple things well is not done as often as you'd like to think it is yeah, and that probably spans across most industries and even most people's gym programs is something that I see often. It's like you need to just do good lunges and good squats and good delifts.
Speaker 2:Everybody wants a shortcut, but you just do the simple things well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely Cool. Good squats and good delifts. Everybody wants a shortcut, but you just do the simple things well. Yeah, absolutely cool. Well, now I think you got an opportunity to write a whole book of just business messages and personal messages within all that business is like a hobby to me.
Speaker 2:I love it yeah it's like a mixture of psychology and applied psychology, and you got to learn as much as you can. You got to improve the way you work with people all the time. You got to learn as much as you can.
Speaker 2:You got to improve the way you work with people all the time you got to look at how can you help the people you work with be their best. They won't always do it exactly the way you want to do it and often they'll do a lot better and create the conditions where they can do that. And the entrepreneur starts off thinking they're the best at everything. And part of the entrepreneur's journey, I think, is getting past yourself to the point where hold on this person is like much better at that task than I am. This person can do this amazingly, so that's been part of the journey.
Speaker 1:Sort of closes that loop, excellent. Well, I think, on that note, matt, we're going to wrap this one up and we'll probably have you on again, and I'm really excited to see where Verve goes and what you guys continue to bring to the market because, as I said, our experience has been outstanding and I can't recommend you highly enough to both those setting up their own home gym and those looking to that commercial space. And so kudos to you guys and kudos to all your hard work and everything you've brought to the market. Thank you, thank you, appreciate it Awesome. Thanks, al Cheers. Thanks for listening to today's episode. For more regular insights into SOF, be sure to check us out on Instagram or Facebook or visit our website at scienceoffitnesscomau. Once again, we thank you for tuning in to the Science of Fitness podcast.