The Science of Fitness Podcast
Welcome to the Science Of Fitness podcast where we aim to inspire you to live a healthier and more fulfilling life as we share evidence and anecdotes on all things health, fitness, performance, wellness and business.
Hosted by Kieran Maguire, Co-Owner and Director of Science Of Fitness with an Undergraduate degree in Exercise Science and Masters degree in High Performance, the podcast includes guests and friends of SOF from all walks of life sharing their knowledge and stories within their field of expertise.
Join us as we provide listeners with digestible and relatable educational tools and entertaining stories to inspire a healthier and more fulfilling life.
The Science of Fitness Podcast
Running Smarter, Not Harder with Trail Kings Shayle Korander
If you’ve ever pushed the pace for a cleaner Strava graph, you’ve felt the tug-of-war between ambition and anatomy. We invited physiotherapist and Trail Kings host Shale Coranda to unpack how runners actually get better: not with hacks, but with small mechanical tweaks, heavy strength done right, and a stubborn commitment to patience. Shale’s blend of clinical insight and real-world running culture cuts through noise and offers clear steps you can use on your very next run.
We dig into first-line physio care for musculoskeletal issues and why waiting for GP triage can delay outcomes. Shale explains how a simple 10% cadence increase reduces patellofemoral load, and why pairing it with a 5% incline can drop knee stress dramatically. From Achilles to shins, he outlines effective progressions: heavy calf work that exceeds bodyweight, quad strength for knee resilience, and hands-on treatment to create rapid relief and better engagement. He also shares his own osteitis pubis story—how sprinting too much, too soon, forced him to respect timelines and load management the hard way.
The conversation also addresses the culture that shapes our choices: ultra envy, HIROX hype, and super-shoe symbolism. We talk stack height, shoe drop, and how footwear shifts load, plus the recovery trend that sometimes sells comfort more than capacity. Diet, sleep, and stress show up as silent drivers of pain, with practical referral pathways for REDs and bone stress risk. On the data front, we highlight the value of objective measures without letting them override clinical reasoning or the human in front of you. Perhaps most myth-busting of all: knee pain often inhibits glutes rather than weak glutes causing knee pain—load management still leads.
Walk away with a plan you can trust: keep running when you can, just less; increase cadence for knee relief; lift heavy with quality; pick one primary goal and accept trade-offs; recover like it matters; and filter social media with a critical eye. If this helped clarify your next step, follow the show, share it with a runner who needs a nudge, and leave a quick review to help more listeners find us.
Welcome to the Science of Fitness Podcast, where we aim to inspire you to live a healthier and more fulfilling life as we share evidence and anecdotes on all things relating to health, fitness, performance, business, and wellness. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, back to the Science of Fitness podcast. We've got a very exciting guest here today, a fellow podcastee, if you will, Shale Coranda. Hopefully I said that correctly. Correctly. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:I didn't actually introduce myself and my full name, so you did well there.
SPEAKER_02:Beautiful. Alright, well, that's great. That's a good start for us. So Shale runs a podcast called The Trail Kings and an Instagram page and a couple of other things. You're also a fellow sort of enthusiast in the running realm.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_02:Probably a little bit more enthusiastic than I am, Mate. And then you're also a practicing physiotherapist as well. I am. So there is uh there's a lot to unpack here, and I'm I'm really excited. Um I think to kick things off, you're gonna kick it off with just a little intro about yourself. Like, how did you get here? How did you become the trail king host? Um, do you run trails? Talk me through physio. Give me the whole the whole rundown, mate. Yeah, wow.
SPEAKER_00:Uh so I've been a physio for I think four years now, um, in a private practice setting. Uh that I was drawn to that straight away. Yeah. Did my clinical rotations all in hospitals and hated it. Yeah. Uh nothing against, you know, people who are quite unwell, but I think my passion was more working with people who are very physically active and have, you know, really uh big, hairy, audacious goals, as Tim Franklin. Um, not sure if you know Timmy. Yeah. Um that's his saying. So uh yeah, really enjoyed working uh yeah with people, uh runners in particular, who were motivated to take on some big things. Um and then in terms of trail kings, that was uh that was an interesting thing. So uh it was initially started with one of my mates, yeah. Uh, and at Run Club, uh a couple people used to just call us the Trail Kings because we both had big, long, glowing mullets, and we used to just, you know, we're at the front just you know hammering. Um, and someone goes, You boys are like the trail kings. Um, and that's where the name kind of started. Yeah. We started the page, uh it started as an Instagram page. Started as an Instagram page, and you know, we just post funny shit. Yeah, yeah. I'll be allowed to swear on this. Yeah, go nuts. Okay. Um we'd post funny stuff, and we kind of, you know, got a few followers, people people laughed and and thought it was pretty funny, and then they said, Oh, you should start a podcast. And at this stage, this is probably two and a half, three years ago, and not everyone had a podcast at this point. I think it's a bit oversaturated. Um, nothing against podcasters.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, the irony of saying that on a podcast. On a podcast. Um that's a podcast host yourself.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Uh so we're like, yeah, whatever, we'll we'll do it. And we bought these really dodgy microphones and recorded three of the most horrific episodes ever. People listened. Um, and then I kind of just went, nah, I actually really like doing this. Yeah. I'm gonna splash the cash, I'm gonna get, you know, nice equipment. We're actually gonna put some effort into it, and it started to grow. Yeah, nice. And you're just about to launch episode 50. 50, episode 50. So uh consistency is my uh enemy. Yeah. Um I've been a little bit up and down over the kind of last two years. Uh, but yeah, starting to get uh now that we're growing, heaps starting to get a lot more consistent with episodes. So yeah, episode 50 is coming out this week. So it's uh it's crazy to think that I've you know that's like 50 hours worth of of content, but you know, it's gone really well. So it's I'm excited to see. Hopefully, there's another 50 episodes there.
SPEAKER_02:Matt, I have no doubt. I'm sure. I'm sure there is. Um so let's stay on the physio side of things, you know, first and foremost. Like as you said, you sort of did those clinical rotations, you sort of roll through hospital and see, oh, this isn't what I like, but you love the sort of, I guess, musculoskeletal side and getting people to move their body and do things that are that are challenging and not hopefully you know be held back by injuries. Um what about school and sports at school and that sort of thing? Is that where it really came from? Like, did you go in year 11 or 12, I'm making this decision, I want to be a physio, or was what was that sort of story like?
SPEAKER_00:Uh I probably struggled with uh attention um during school. And uh I was lucky enough that I did quite well. Like I was naturally quite smart, uh, but was terrible at studying, terrible at you know, assignments on time. Uh, and there was always that goal, like, hey, I'm smart, I'm gonna do medicine. Yeah. Um, and it kind of just got to me and I was like, man, I don't think I, you know, can sit down and focus. And, you know, I think physio is that good blend where you know you can, there's a bit of that like medical side of things, um, and then I can be active and you know, be moving and keep myself busy. And part of that as well was yes, I was heavily involved in in sports. So I played a lot of AFL, um, a lot of running, pretty much everything possible. Um, so I was heavily involved with the physios at the club and seeing like my own physios for injury. So there was that side of thing, definitely. So both of those things together led me to physio.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. How uh how often does that uh medical doctor itch come up? And do you feel the need to scratch it or have you really put that to bed?
SPEAKER_00:Uh part of me would love to become a sports doctor. Uh, I think that's a uh good blend. Again, it's just uh the fear of having to go study again. Yeah, and have hex depth. And then and then more hex, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. And now it's at seven percent, so it's even better. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it's really funny because you know, I look at a lot of people in my industry, and you know, I'm strength and conditioning exercise science. Yeah, the ambition up from here is clinical exercise physiology. And I was just young, dumb, and in a rush when I was like, oh, go and do that extra year for X Fiz or finish X Science and go work straight away. Like to me, I was like, oh no, bugger the clinical stuff. I'm just gonna get clients to do this. In hindsight, probably should have done the clinical thing. But then I went and did my masters in high performance and again gave me less of a clinical uh access, but um, you know, kept studying anyway, so I probably could have just done the X-Fiz. But it's funny because then you see an X Fiz, next step up from them is oh well, I'm gonna go do physio. Yeah, and then next step up from physio is medicine, and then you know, it's so it's there's always another step or a you know, greener bit of grass that you're looking at. But I quite often say to our interns and and people coming in is if you are doing something that you really like and you find you're enjoying it, like don't chase the greener grass. We uh in hindsight have realized that preventative mechanisms are actually much better for our health than the reactive system that we kind of stumbled upon in the last hundred years. And so if we got practitioners that can help people stay more active, less injured, etc., um, I guess sports medicine has that realm. Yeah. Um, but you know, a good physio can actually have much more of a an influence on someone's overall health than potentially a good doctor, which is I might get shot down and canceled. That might make sense though.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. We're like first first line practitioners, um, so we can make a big difference in people's outcomes. Um, and it's probably something uh might touch on it now anyway. It's probably something, and this is not against GPs at all, they do a great job, but I think people really need to understand that physios can do a lot. Um, and uh in terms of any kind of musculoskeletal issue, I I think should be that first line of contact. Um, because yeah, they can get the ball rolling with management a lot quicker. A lot of the times the GPs will be like, okay, you need to go see your physio. Exactly. And that's just you know, that might take a week, it might take two weeks, and then really you're behind the eight ball already.
SPEAKER_02:So it's funny because and and and in reference to what you're saying, like my brother's gone from this from exercise fizz to he's now a doctor, yeah, and he's working rurally out in the bush, and we're having a good chat about it. In that he said, mate, the amount of people that need so much more help than the person with the sore knee or the sore back, and so you you become quite dismissive of musculoskeletal issues because you go, it's just the musculoskeletal issue. And I've got a diabetic, I've got hypertension, I've got I've got these 15 people waiting in the waiting room that could turn around, keel over, and die in any moment. Just and and then a lot of people feel dismissed about their pain or their symptoms or whatever the problem is, and you know, and then they stand and want to criticize a doctor, and it's like from an empathetic lens, it's like they actually have a lot more to deal with because there is so many people unwell. And you know, he was talking about it in the bush. The active farmer, for example, that you know has a suboptimal diet, but a really active lifestyle, suddenly has a meniscus issue or a bit of a you know um ligament issue in their knee, and they need to get seen by the right surgeon to have that cleaned out. There's an 18-month waiting list. That 18 months sees them move less and gain upwards of 10 to 15 kilos. Suddenly they've got hypertension or pre-diabetes, and we don't care about that sore knee anymore. No, we're really worried about all these other health metrics that are slipping away. And before you know it, the very thing that started it is disregarded, and now we're just worrying about keeping them alive and they're really unwell. And that's sort of the series of sort of circumstances that I think a lot of people slip into, and that's where, in reference to what you're saying, that first line of defense, if you've got back pain, if you've got something that's limiting you from moving or making you know hold back from doing a bit more exercise, um go and get it dealt with by a physio because it is there and then in your early 40s that might determine how active and happy and healthy you are into your 50s, 60s, and 70s. Yeah. So yeah, it's it's uh it's underappreciated, I think, because it oh, it's just a sore knee or it's just an injury, but it actually will have a lot of effect on how you approach particularly physical activity in life. Um in terms of your physiocareer in the last sort of four years, what would you say to yourself when you graduated that you know now as a practitioner? Then you know, compared to when you finished uni and going, Right, I'm ready to go.
SPEAKER_00:Uh yeah, there's lots to lots to learn. Uh it's it is it was very daunting. Um and then that like obviously that first six months is is tough and you are thrown into the to the deep end. Um, and you know, I'll openly admit there was a lot of things that came to me where I was like, man, what what am I doing? Yeah. Um and then almost after that that kind of six months, you go, oh hey, I know it all. And um you kind of go, yeah, there's that illusion that yeah, I'm the best, I know I can treat anything, blah, blah, blah.
SPEAKER_02:Um because you have a couple of wins, a couple of good patient outcomes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And then I I think the tip is just to keep learning. Like, you know, there's there's always more, you can always be better. Um, and and that's probably part of the reason as well, like not exploring that medical route yet, because I know there's so much more I can get out of physio. Um, there's so much more to learn. And I think of like something like running, which I've been probably investing a lot of time and um effort into building my skills there. I haven't even like there's so much more that I can learn in that space. Yeah. And then there's so much more as well in the general, you know, physio realm in terms of musculoskeletal um conditions. Like some therapists just treat, you know, wrists or just treat um hands or shoulders and they specialize in that. Specialise in that. Um, so you know, there's always more to learn. Um, so I think just don't fall into the trap thinking, okay, cool, you know, I've got through that tough little early part of my career. I'm good for now.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Don't sort of get complacent with it. Yeah. Yeah, it's quite funny because you know, you do you get a few good results and a few good outcomes, and a few patients pup your tires up and you go, yep, I'm the man. But at the same time, how important is that confidence as a practitioner to go, look, diagnostically, I'm thinking this process out is this, adhere to it. There's a big psychological element to to to injury and pain. How much have you seen sort of going, hey, I'm confident that these are the outcomes that these are the metrics you need to hit to get the outcome you want?
SPEAKER_00:Uh I think it it definitely leads to uh better engagement with or like patients engaging with what you're with what you're saying. Um you know, I think looking back, you know, talking to a patient be like, oh, I think this or I think that. That hesitation. Yeah, that hesitation, people can pick up on it. Uh and I I think even if you're not hundred percent sure, I think you just got to have that that confidence. Um, and I always like to treat um, you know, what what are they presenting with? What are their complaints? You know, how can we manage that? Do we a hundred percent get that diagnosis right? It's it's really hard sometimes. Um, so if you can go, um, oh hey, you've got knee pain, for example, um, and you're there is a deficit in your cause on that side, then straight away you go, okay, well, we're going to work on that. Do we know exactly what's causing that that knee pain? There might be a couple of working diagnoses. Um, but if you give them a plan and you're confident about it and you tell you tell them why you're doing it, they'll most likely engage with it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. And that's often the case is probably, you know, particularly in the running realm where people are suddenly getting a knee type issue or a hip or Achilles is a classic. And they're going, why? Why is there a breakdown? And it's as logical as some of those musculoskeletal size or strength deficits. Um how important, and I guess what are the main factors that you know try and implement to make sure people adhere to the necessities of improving an injury?
SPEAKER_00:Uh, in terms of the running space, uh, you've got to get them doing something. Um I think you know, there's some cases where you can't get people running, particularly like nasty bone stress injuries, but a lot of the times you can get them doing something. Um, and I think people are more likely to adhere to a program if they've got something to keep them going. So it might be just, oh, hey, you know, you're getting sore at 5Ks into your run, but you're able to manage the first like three or four K. So we'll drop your running load, we'll get you doing three Ks easy. Um, and then you're working on all the other stuff that we set, they're more likely to adhere to that. Instead of you going, hey, we've just got to completely rest, you know, no running, running's bad for you. Yeah, you got to work on this physio stuff. And a lot of the times that doesn't work anyway. Um, but you know, people, as soon as you say no running, they switch off.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, so in the cases where they they're not allowed to run, you have to be really good with your communication there and explain why. Um, but a lot of times you just got to keep them doing something.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, because it's it's as as you said, you know, there's such a um psychological element in terms of their confidence and their ability to feel okay and doing the right thing and being active. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's um it's quite the challenge in terms of uh physio as a practice and its approach to running related musculoskeletal rate related injuries. Um how much has it moved, particularly in just what you've seen the last couple of years from studying into practicing, from hands-on treatment, a little bit of bandwork to full-blown, you need to do actual strengthening work and movement mechanics type work?
SPEAKER_00:I think a lot of people were aware of it now. Um, and whether that's social media, you know, every second person's harping on about you've got to do strength work. And and people will come in to see me and go, hey, you know, I've got this issue. I know I'm not doing my strength work. And and they they can recognise that, which is a good sign. Um, yeah, it's very tricky, and um, you gotta you gotta pick the right dosage for the right person too. So not everyone look, it'd be great if everyone can do heavy resistance stuff, uh, but not not everyone will. Um, so there I still think there is a place for some of the banded work. Um and and I still definitely think there's a role in hands-on. Um but I I definitely think people are just more aware of of doing strength training. And a lot of runners I'm seeing are doing one, two, three days a week of strength training. Um, whether they're doing the right things, um, that's that's definitely uh my job to figure that out. Yeah. And but but majority of people are doing, I don't know, some form of calf raises, some form of like squatting, gonna hip thrust, that kind of thing. So um there is definitely more awareness out there. Um, but I I reckon we shouldn't discount hands-on handband work.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, what are the wrong things that that people are coming in and doing that come to mind?
SPEAKER_00:Well, like particularly like calf raises is a big thing that I see. Um, where you know they go, Hey, I'm I like they got an Achilles issue, and I go, Are you doing any calf work? And I said, Yeah, I've got really strong calves, you know. And I look and they can do 10 body weight calf calf raises, and they go, That's fine. I add a little bit of resistance there, and it's yeah, no good.
SPEAKER_02:Falls to pieces, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So um, you know, weight is your friend and and progressive overload. Uh running, yeah, it places a massive demand on the body. Um, so you know, you've got to be doing more than body weight in terms of your your calf raises. And your strength training. In your strength training. So calves are a high risk area. Um interestingly enough, um, I was looking at something and it was like that transition from walking to running and the loads that it places on the body. Um, so walking to running for Achilles and hip, you know, goes it probably doubles, whereas for the knees, it's like it's quadruples. So it's it's it's quite a large difference from walking to running for knees. Yeah. So definitely doing some kind of quad work as well, I think, is super important for people.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. How influences actual running mechanics? How influential is the running mechanics on those load profiles?
SPEAKER_00:Uh, I think for knees, it's the biggest thing. Um, I I see people can make the biggest difference in their symptoms um with knee pain with a change in gait. Um so the big things is cadence is the number one thing. Um, regardless of where your issue is in your body, a 10% increase in cadence is massive. Um, so I can get someone out there and go, okay, again, this is not everyone. Um, but a lot of people you go, hey, I've got six, seven out of ten knee pain. Um, you increase their cadence, get them landing a little bit more underneath their hips, and that pain will massively reduce and they'll notice it straight away. Yeah. You see someone with like an Achilles issue or maybe hip issue, you may not notice that difference in that session. It'll be more of a working progress.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Still mean it still doesn't mean it doesn't work. Yeah. Um, but with knees, you see a massive just straight away. Straight away.
SPEAKER_02:Talk us through why that occurs.
SPEAKER_00:Well, a lot of the times it's like an overstride. Um, that that's the number one thing I'll see. So we look for, you know, people are quick to say heel striking's bad. Not necessarily, but I'll usually see it paired with an overstride. So um it's kind of distance of where that foot's landing away from the body, uh, it's the angle of that tibia. Um, so I look for I want it to be more vertical, um, and then vertical oscillation as well. So they're the big three things that I look for. If they've got components of that, it's likely an overstride.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and really just massively increasing the force. Um, particularly shin and knee, um, they're the big areas that will will cop it. Um, so if you go, okay, we're gonna increase your cadence by 10%, uh, more steps, they're gonna be shorter steps. I try and cue them to land underneath their hips.
SPEAKER_03:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and again, you just you're just bringing that leg closer to your body, so you're reducing the amount of force going through that patellophemoral joint in particular.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And I mean, it's so funny once you do look at it, because you look at the literature on heel versus forefoot striking, and the only time it really causes big problems is when you try and change it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And and for a lot of us, you know, again, if you take your shoes off and go and run, you're gonna probably not land with a heel strike. But we've probably spent our entire lives growing up with shoes on, and therefore, when there's a footwear on and generally a bit of cushioning, a bit of a heel elevation, you're gonna be a little bit more inclined to land on your heel. Yep. So we're gonna be pretty well trained at having a bit more of a heel strike, yeah. But it's that it's that foot in relation to center of mass, that leg out in front of you, yeah, as opposed to landing underneath you, as you said. Um, that's really interesting though, that that that's sort of such an influential mechanism on knee pain. Yeah, it checks out, right? It makes so much sense.
SPEAKER_00:It is the number one thing. So uh not not necessarily.
SPEAKER_02:Um anecdotally, I mean, we're not yeah, you can go into the literature and there's nuance upon nuance upon nuance.
SPEAKER_00:But there was an interesting thing um that I was reading, and it's it's really about shifting uh shifting load from a structure. So if you look at knees, for example, um the number one thing or the thing that increases knee load the most is running downhill on like a five percent grade. And you can feel that, right? Yeah, see it in people. 100%. Um and on the flip side though, about a 30% reduction in uh knee loading with a five percent incline. So that's something else I'll get knee pain patients doing, particularly if I want to keep them running, um, is put them on a five percent uh grade on a treadmill. Um and other times it massively well, it's a 30% reduction, so it's more than that cadence, 10% cadence increase they found. So you pair a 10% cadence increase with a 5% incline on a treadmill, and you are massively reducing knee forces.
SPEAKER_02:That that knee stress and yeah, would that sit similarly with shin splints or shin pain, or is it a bit more technical?
SPEAKER_00:Um I I definitely think the overstride things are a factor. So, like he'll strike away from the body again, it's shins and knees that I'll see it. So any shin pain patient, any knee pain patient will usually have that. So I focus more cadence. Um, so running uphill does increase kind of plant flexor force, which in turn will increase pressure through the shins there. Um, so uphill running not as recommended for a shin splint for a shin splint, um, but uh for cadence increase is definitely recommended.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's funny. It's um and you see it so many times in people with the best of intentions, and they try and increase their speed and then they're trying to reach a little bit more, and ultimately it just has a hindrance on both actual speed as well as then you know joint stress.
SPEAKER_00:I think people go, okay, I want to move forward, so I'm gonna drive forward. Um, so they'll they'll stride out because they're trying to move forward. Um, one of the like another good cue that I like to use is go, okay, slight forward lean. So your body's going forward and your legs are going back. So I think pull your legs back, move your body forward. Um, and and that usually gets people a little bit more underneath their hips and that that kind of proper mechanics.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and getting to those mechanics. How different is it in terms of your long, slow distance recreational runner versus the athlete that you might see in terms of treatment? Like, are you seeing less knee type issues with the high speed interval sort of running athlete, say an AFL player versus maybe the long slow distance person?
SPEAKER_00:I think everyone falls into that trap. Um regardless of sort of speed or sport or yeah, but um I I think uh those high-level athletes, particularly the the better high-level runners, they're more conditioned. Um, so uh it's probably something I got obsessed with at the start was changing everyone's mechanics to to that textbook um running form, but you don't have to. And the research coming out is you know, it but you're basically just shifting load from one area to another. Okay. Um, so if you've got a really seasoned athlete, you know, who's doing 100 to 130 Ks a week, haven't hasn't had any injuries, there's not really a point in changing their running technique, even if it doesn't look textbook, um, because you know their body's conditioned to how they're running. Um if they've come in with an injury, sure. Um, you know, if they've got an Achilles injury, and it's an overuse basketball. An overuse then then we'll temporarily change their gait a little bit or modify a few factors to allow them to keep running, and then slowly shift them back to to know what they feel more comfortable with after addressing, you know, maybe it's a calf strength deficit, hip strength deficit, etc. Um and then I mean your your field-based athletes, you know, they've got all kinds of things going on. Um, running's probably something that a lot of field-based athletes don't really focus on. Um, I know playing AFL, not once they do any form of run mechanic or run technique sessions. So, you know, they'll have all kinds of things going on. I think it's just that disparity between the really elite runners and the people maybe just getting into it. Um the the elite ones, I wouldn't change too much with them unless it's really indicated.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Don't don't fix what isn't broken kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, in terms of your own injuries and and and niggles and that sort of thing, um, how's that shaped the way you approach treating people?
SPEAKER_00:Probably patience. Yeah. Um yeah, I was talking to you before, like I've got osteitis pubs at the moment. Um, and that was from me doing all kinds of stupid stuff. Just doing, I went from not doing a lot of sprinting to doing, you know, four or five sprint sessions a week. Um, because I was just obsessed with trying to get fast. So um I had a uh a competition over in the US um playing flag football. Um, so it's the newest Olympic sport. Yeah. Um so uh lucky enough to be in the Oz Olympic team, and you know, I was like, man, I've got to, I was already fast, but I'm like, you know, I've really got to work on this. So every day nearly I was just doing sprinting and felt good for a little bit, and then you know, symptoms started to to build uh to the point where yeah, it got really nasty. Um played through it, was horrible. And I came back after the US tour and basically couldn't get out of bed, couldn't twist, hurt to cough, sneeze. It was it was nasty, and I was still under the impression that hey, you know, this will get better quickly, I'll do the right things. Um I'm a physio, I know what to do. Yeah, and it's been it's been five and a half months now. Um and I have been very impatient at times along the the process. Um, but now it's just getting to the point where I'm like, I I have I've just got to trust it. I know it's gonna take some time. Um, I can't rush back into things, and that's probably helped me manage some of those kind of longer term people in clinic as well, where I go, where they've got something similar or something that's gonna take a while. In the past, I'd be like, after a little bit, I'm like, what's going on? Why aren't you getting better? I start to freak out a little bit.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Now I'm like, hey, this is just gonna, this is gonna take some time. You know, we'll take the little wins, we'll keep progressing here. Um, you know, obviously if things aren't getting better or there's it's getting worse, then we'll look at other options, but sometimes it's just it's just patience.
SPEAKER_02:Hurry up and wait kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's um, and it's funny, and OP is such a classic example as an as a an injury in that it's not acute, it sort of gradually comes on and you can get away with oh, it's sore, but it's fine, it's all but it's fine, and then suddenly it's not. Yeah, yeah. W for those that don't really understand why, you know, why is it so painful? Why does it take so long to to recover?
SPEAKER_00:So uh, I mean it's it's inflammation, maybe it's bone stress, there's they they're unsure, like just in general, with like that osteitis pubis diagnosis, but that pubic symphysis is where your kind of abdominal muscles and your duct muscles meet, um, which is quite a it's quite a central spot. So if you think, you know, you use your core for everything. Um and and same thing, like you don't realise how much you use your your adductors as well.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it's sort of the second biggest force producer in terms of like max velocity running and sprinting and yeah, hip extension movements.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. And you know, um it's funny when you hurt something and you realize, hey, I actually use this muscle a lot. I don't feel it usually. I took it for granted, yeah. Yeah. Um, and so I have more abdominal symptoms. So uh coughing, sneezing, bracing, sitting up, they were all really nasty for me. Less adductor symptoms, which was interesting.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, I've always had really tight adductors. Um, and um I've had previous scans which showed some OP stuff. I have never really been symptomatic, the occasional kind of groin little niggle, and that went away. Yeah. Um, and then yeah, so ended up getting some imaging done on it before I went to the US and didn't look very pretty in there. Um really nasty adducted tendon tear and um advanced kind of breakdown, particularly on that left on that problem side.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and yeah, it's it's just it's just an area of high use um and high load. Uh I use it with most movements, so you've really got to it's almost like a you've got to treat it like a bone stress injury where you just Got to massively deload that and then slowly build that capacity back up.
SPEAKER_02:And build that tolerance. Yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's really interesting. And it's um and it happens so so often. And it often you know pops up as people think it might be a herniation or an abdominal strain. And because I guess the um symptomatically the pain can be somewhat global in and around the pelvis. Yeah. It it can be really quite confusing.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I thought it was like an abdominal tendinopathy to start with, um, or like a psoasy kind of issue. Um, because I was like, oh, well, it's not a ductus stuff, so it can't be OP. And then the more, the more and more it kind of progressed, the more I was like, yeah, this is this is heading down a very OP like path.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um What are the flags that you see? The biggest red flags that you see in terms of the people the way people approach uh their their running recovery, um and and and then you know their rehab within that when there is an injury.
SPEAKER_00:I I feel just in general, I like I had someone in last night um with some knee pain, and people get stuck in that cycle where my knee hurts, so I'm gonna rest. I'm gonna stop going to the gym, I'm gonna stop running, I'm gonna leave it for a month, and it should be better. And they and that that's probably when they come and see me is they try and run again and it's still sore. Um people get stuck in that trap where things hurt, I'm going to completely rest it. So you probably to start with had some kind of of weakness or deficit. Uh, and by resting it, you're just emphasizing. Yeah, you're just deloading it more. And then the more it's deloaded, probably the more it's gonna hurt, and then you get stuck in that cycle. Um so there's definitely conditions where rest is super important, like the bone stress stuff. But a lot of the times, and this is why it's important to see someone about it, is you know, you you've got to be doing something. And you know, for the knee pain example, like squatting starked, you know, squatting was really painful, leg extensions were a little bit sore. Um, but we did like some modified, like Spanish squat kind of stuff. So still getting some quad loading there. Um, you can sometimes do like some modified leg extension holds um just to try and get some quad loading going. So there's always an alternative um to load that area up. Um so I think people should, yeah, definitely seek advice when they're getting some pain and don't resort to just resting it. Nothing, yeah. There there are some things, little niggles that end runners are aware of that that just go away and and that's fine. Um, but yeah, definitely seek um help with that stuff. And then in terms of recovery, um, I I guess post-event people are very quick to get back into their running. So there's a lot of good research coming out um at the moment um about you know how long it takes for your body to recover, you know, post an ultra marathon or post a marathon. It takes weeks, yeah. Um, and people are quick to, you know, a couple days after are out doing some runs. Um doesn't mean you can't, but you've just gotta be really careful.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um I fell into that trap last last year. I did an ultra and I kept running afterwards. Went back to flag football straight away, and I had like ephemeral um stress y come on after that. So yeah, I I think just take rest, rest after that marathon, take some time. Maybe you'll lose a little bit of fitness, um, but you'll get it back pretty quickly.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and you know, and I often say that to people is you've proven that you can do it and you can do the training necessary to get to that outcome that you're chasing. Um be prepared just to step back a little bit and just let your body have a moment of just sort of decompression. Um, and and mostly psychologically, I think is the other one for a lot of people.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it's heavy like marathon training or any training in general, it's it's quite taxing on the on the body, and particularly when you're getting towards the end where you're doing lots of long runs, there's lots of volume in your weeks. Um you know, you're probably I know a lot of people aren't good with their fueling, you're probably underfueling to a to a degree. So there is high fatigue levels, and then that emotional stress of marathon kind of marathon day or race day where you're just super amped up and stressed, and you get through there and you just broke down in your, you know, it it's tough. It's a it's a big day and it's a big training block. So give yourself some time mentally to to recover as well.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Funnily enough though, people tend to run really good times um post like say they do a marathon on a Sunday, a lot of the times I'll pull out a really fast five or 10k that next week.
SPEAKER_02:Wow, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And um, I haven't looked too much into why that is, maybe because you are like if your body's recovered well enough, like you know, you are in that peak fitness.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you are you're sort of still on that D loaded or taper of sort of mechanism that you've probably taken into that marathon.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Phil Gore um was a great example this year. He broke the record for the Backyard Ultra and he ran for like five days straight. And that weekend he did New Farm Park Run in under 18 minutes. Oh my god. Yeah, so he's a machine. So people are capable of doing some crazy things.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, totally. How often do people get caught up in that though? You know, that they see these extreme examples of these epic athletes do some incredible things, they go, right over my turn.
SPEAKER_00:I I mean it keeps you in a job, really, sometimes. Yeah, yeah, it definitely does. But they're the even like the the like Ned Brockman stuff, um, people taking on these big crazy challenges, uh, people want to do more and more. Um, so people aren't satisfied with a half marathon or a marathon anymore. Yeah, they go straight into I want to do an ultra.
SPEAKER_02:And they do an ultra-five years ago when people were running marathons, I was like awesome.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Now it's like normal, and yeah, most people are running ultrasound. It's crazy, and you just you keep doing more and more, and the next thing you know, you want to run across the country or you want to, you know, run from Brisbane to Sydney or Brisbane to Melbourne. I don't know, do something along those lines, and uh, it's great, it's something to train for. Uh, but people have got to respect that as well, where they go, hey, like the people doing this stuff have been running for a long time. Um, someone like a Timmy who ran around the world or Sean Bell who ran around the country, you know, there's a lot of years of training and and conditioning going into this. You can't just wake up one day and go, hey, I want to run, you know, stupidly far.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you're not Forrest Gov. No. It's just a movie. No.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and there's always those freak athletes that that can do it and are conditioned to do it, but it's just you got to take your time. If you want to do that, cool. Um, take your time. It might take you a few years to build up that chronic load.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, and that sort of capacity. Yeah, I like to think of myself as a very boring fit person in that 12Ks. I'm happy with that. That's that's great. Yeah. If maybe I'll get out to a half marrow, but maybe one day a marathon, but like the other part for me is there's so many other mechanisms of training that I'm into as well. Like we do some really hard stuff downstairs, or I'll do a lot of strength training or gymnastics stuff. And it's it's also understanding that I if I'm gonna go and run more than a half, even doing a half, I've got to let go my strength and my gymnastics and pre-prepared to not be so good at that stuff so I can then go and handle it.
SPEAKER_00:That's been the hard thing for me as well, like playing footy and then wanting to do some distance running. Um, and that's probably, you know, I'm not a not a spectacular distance runner by all means. Um, but uh like if I really wanted to focus on on my distance running and go, hey, I really want to do, you know, a marathon in the two-hour range, or you know, I want to do a half or in an hour 20 or something like that, which is like it's it's okay. Um, but I know I have to put that training in and you know, I have to get into those hundred K weeks. And I've just never been able to because you know, I've got three trainings or two trainings in a game of AFL and maybe some flag football. And then this year it's been you know, flag, flag, flag. And you know, I just don't have that time to do both. And that's probably partly where the the injury came to, where I've you know, I'm doing 50, 60ks a week of running, and then I'm doing four or five sprint sessions, complete polar opposites. Yeah. Um, and yeah, it's just trying to find like if you want to be a good runner, you've probably just got to focus completely on it. Um, and like my mate who I did the podcast with, he's like completely focused on his running. Yeah, you know, doesn't play any AFL anymore. He's running his 100k weeks, he's getting really, really good results there. Um, and I've just never been able to kind of keep up in that sense because I'm always doing something else. Yeah. And I think following this injury, touch wood when I recover, you know, I I will probably just have to focus on, you know, just the sprinting strength stuff for a bit. Because that's what you're doing. That's what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_02:But the main thing be the main thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think that's good advice for for anyone as well. And it's a question I get asked a lot is how do I balance my sport and my distance running? And it's like you don't. Well, you're not gonna get good at either you're not gonna get elite at either of them. You can get you can be good at both, um, but you've got to kind of pick one. Um, and maybe in the off season you go, okay, AFL season finishes in September. From September to February, I'm just gonna put a good distance block in and you know build some fitness, and then maybe I maintain that a little bit through my AFL season.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, your capacity moves a little bit, that bell curve moves up a little bit further.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and a little bit more distance. But yeah, you just gotta you've gotta pick what you want to be good at because there's the distance running and like field-based strength stuff, it just they're they're on the opposite side of the spectrum.
SPEAKER_02:Totally. Um, it's funny, and and so how influential, you know, in terms of causing problems, if you will, um, has the HIROX type CrossFit thing where people are doing these hectic strength type modalities and then going into this endurance stuff. You know, again, like I like to say it, you know, jack of all, master of none. Yeah, I'm reasonably strong, maybe just above the norm. Yeah, I'm reasonably good at gymnastics, maybe just above the norm.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I'm reasonably okay at running just above the norm, but I'm not gonna run. I'd love to say I can run a sub-20-minute 5K. Yeah, but I know I've got to go backwards in those other two before I go there. How often do you see people coming in trying to tick all three boxes and you know, say a Hyrox or a hybrid athlete thing that's now on the internet influencing that?
SPEAKER_00:It it's tough. Um, there are definitely people who are great at great at a lot of those things. Um, it's probably the same thing where you you're not gonna be a master of all of them, um, but you can certainly be be good at a few. I think the issues I see are you know typically bigger bodies, um great in the gym, they get into running. Um and again, you know, they probably don't have that technique side of things down. Um they take the long strides, and then you know, you've got a guy with 100-110 kilos of muscle, you know, that's a lot of extra force going through, and that's where I tend to see the the injuries pop up. Um, and I mean the the more muscle mass you have, the uh you're not gonna move as well. Um and that's a fact. You see, all the elite distance runners don't have much much on them. Totally. Um, and yeah, it's just again trying to be that hybrid, you're gonna find that blend where you can't maybe be that heavy. You've got to you've got to trim a little bit down, maybe lose a little bit of strength there. But on the flip side, then you you build a little bit of that endurance and that speed there.
SPEAKER_02:You still have that speed. It's even I'm probably four kilos heavier than I was 18 months ago running training for a half.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I'm a good 15 seconds per K slower.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Like I'm sending it on a run on a Saturday and I'm just pulling up at a 450 per K for 10K's going, that was like hard. I really thought I was going much faster than that. Yeah. But it's just kind of the nature, and I'm just aware of it, but I'm also lifting more than I was 18 months ago, by 10 to 15 kilos. So not that it equates second to kilogram, but I like to sort of associate that.
SPEAKER_00:You you've got to find that that blend, and that's what the elites are are really good at. Um on the flip side, too, it's people getting into the gym gym side of things more, uh, gym side of things more, and they do too much too quick. It's really, it's all load. It really loads the big thing. Um, you know, nothing, nothing's gonna hurt you really. Like people go, oh, bench press is bad for me, or shoulder pressing is bad for me. Like, no, it's not. You just went a million miles an hour, yeah. And now you've got a raging kind of rotator cuff tenopathy. Yeah. We go, okay, let's let this settle down, drop your load a little bit, yeah, maybe build up a little bit of that rotator cuff strength, but we'll just gradually increase your load back with your pressing movements.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So it's just it's taking your time. People, I think people are obsessed, they see things on the internet, they see these ripped jack dudes doing all these cool things, um, and go, I want to get there as quick as possible and and go to the gym seven days a week and lift really heavy weights, and that's when the issues start to to pop up. It's just it's gotta take time.
SPEAKER_02:It does, yeah. Well, mate, staying on the internet because you know, I think it's a it's a big thing that you guys have done really well is um I guess attempt to manage expectations.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:At the end of the day, we're always gonna look at that short little bit of information that promises us the world. Yeah. Um, but ultimately we probably can't handle it and the body breaks down. Um has that was that sort of something you set out to communicate to people when you started the podcast and the page on Instagram, like intentionally, or were you like, let's just have a laugh to make fun of a few people doing some some ridiculously silly things and go from there?
SPEAKER_00:Uh we were always a bit a bit silly, the the two of us. Um, and I I think I kind of just stumbled upon it a little bit where I made a couple of funny videos, a couple funny memes, maybe called out a few people that I shouldn't have, but it got great engagement. Um, and I found uh people actually really enjoy this stuff. I think running content was very much generic, bland, boring. It's like run slow to run fast and do these three exercises to help your shin splints. You know, it was very basic, and there was there weren't many pages out there having a laugh and calling some of this stuff out. And yeah, I just I got carried away because we started to get lots of engagement um and probably went down that path of just you know calling everything out. And um it's probably shifted a little bit where we just generally have a bit of a laugh about running culture in general. Um and someone said the other day we're like the brown cardigan um of the running world where we just you know post stupid stuff that we see or get sent in. And and I like that. I was like, that's that's probably where my focus has shifted a little bit where where I'm like running's so bland and boring, and it can be. And I'm like, I just want to have a bit of a laugh and make some funny content and probably shifted away from that being at the expense of other people and more just generally the running world. Yeah. Um, and I found engagement still being really good and and we're still growing. So uh people, yeah, people love it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that I mean it's it's as you said, it can be so serious and so extreme. And if you're not running sub four minutes, you know, per kilometer, yeah, you need to train harder, you need to do this program, and these three exercises will get you there. And it's like there's so much more to it. Yeah, and that probably is what motivated that I'm gonna I'm gonna call this out for what it is.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:How much of that, because you see it a lot in all forms of social media and the internet and the way we interact with it as a species now, um, is you know, rage is a mechanism with which and generates engagement. And as you said, suddenly things get watched more often. It's something I'm really conscious of is like sometimes I go, I don't agree with that at all. And I'm like, and I'll never say anything, but maybe there is a place, it's a fine balance. How do you sort of feel okay? I need to actually say something here.
SPEAKER_00:It's tricky, and at the start, I got carried away with every single thing I saw I was gonna call out. Um and probably got to the point now where I really picky and like I pick and choose what I want to call out, and usually it's more stuff around my background with Visio. It's like people selling, you know, couch to marathon programs in eight weeks, and you know, that stuff's really harmful. Yeah, um, and I'm I'm happy to call that stuff out because I think it it does need to be. But you know, if someone makes a stupid video or says some stupid things, I'm less inclined to call it out these days. And people people send stuff into me like, oh, you've got to call this out this crap, and I go, Yeah, look, I've made some stupid stuff in my time as well. So uh you kind of just I probably matured a little bit with that that side of things. Um, and I totally own up to all the other content we made in the past, and I don't think it was necessarily bad, it was just um it it I was almost trying to like that clickbaity stuff. Totally, yeah. But then I you kind of find out that the people making this dumb content or this annoying content, they're doing the same thing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:When you meet them in real life, and I've met a lot of these people that I've called out in the past, and they're just generally good people, and you know, they're just trying to get their own engagement there, and uh yeah, you just gotta You gotta look at things on social media, like it's not all of it's really what they're yeah, it's it's tough.
SPEAKER_02:Um but I know what you're saying, and I think it's a really important thing. And I mean, this is in health and fitness and running, like this is in an area that's actually pretty um, I think the outcome and the influence on people is gonna actually be somewhat positive, even if it might be a little bit extreme. But at the end of the day, I think far too few of us. I mean, you go on you go on your explore feed, what does that say about you as a human being? And it's like there's women and there's sport and there's all this stuff, and I'm like, this if someone else saw this, yeah, it'd be a really horrible insight into how I've interacted on my phone, and yeah, it'd reflect really poorly on me. Yeah, don't get mine. Yeah, yeah. But I think a lot of us don't. Um you've done a degree mainly based on science, you get taught to critically think, yeah, you know, and I think a lot of people don't critically think about a piece of content that's been put out, be it about run this certain way, do these things, and then it blows up, and then everyone argues about it over the internet. But most of the time, the person putting it out initially is going, yeah, yeah, like I don't actually stand by this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, this is gonna get engagement, exactly. And that's that's what I found out. A lot of people were doing, they don't actually really believe what they were saying, or they don't really care too much. And I was the same, I'd call things out, and I'm like, Do I really care that much? But hey, this is gonna get people gonna comment on this, they're gonna share this. So uh yeah, look, um definitely moved away from that a little bit. Uh, but then again, I just don't think there's there's a lot to it either. Yeah, um, I think you just gotta yeah, take it with a grain of salt.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. And just you just put a bit of filter when you when you're using as a as a consumer of content, which we uh ultimately all are. Um what are your favourite things to poke fun at within the running community that are just some of your classics?
SPEAKER_00:Well, our big things are Alpha Flyers in the Wild at the moment. It's my it's my favourite. I don't get a laugh every time. Uh people wearing super shoes for day-to-day things. With jeans, yeah, and it kind of started last year, end of last year, where we got sent a few photos, and I was at the Nike store and I saw this lady um don't want to stereotype, but probably wasn't a runner, trying on a pair of alpha flyers, and the shop attendant was like, Yeah, so much cushion in these will be great for you for walking and whatever. And I was like, I'm gonna hold out here, not gonna say anything. And I I shared like uh a couple of uh photos, and then next thing you know, it I'm getting hundreds of messages all around the world from people taking photos of people in Alpha Flies, and there's so many of them. Um I'm like, this segment's gotta stop one day, but it hasn't yet.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and it's just gone.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so it ended up getting me a sponsorship with Nike. So oh really, yeah. Oh, that's awesome. It's done well in the end. So thank you to everyone who's worn their Alpha Flyers in the public. So keep keep doing it, keep doing it, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That's unreal. Um, if you sort of like let's cast your mind to some predictions for the future, yeah. Um, particularly in running, like where do you think running and running rehab and the physio space within running's heading? Like, like what do you think you know you're seeing it evolve into? And as you said, you know, initially consumers' understandings are I'm probably not doing enough strength training. That's a big deal. Five years ago, people were not saying that. So, you know, if I look at the internet, we can say it's bad. I think it's had a positive influence in that aspect. Definitely. What else do you sort of think is coming in?
SPEAKER_00:Uh there is a massive running boom, and I think a lot of companies will try and take advantage of it. Uh they'll try and find this new niche product for runners to use. And I think we're moving a lot into that recovery space, um, which is a good and a bad thing. Um, a lot of the recovery things I question. Yeah. Um, but like, for example, like Nike just released um the Vomero Premium, which is like 50 something mils of stack height, um, and they've created the shoe based on what it feels like to run on an anti-gravity treadmill. So it's meant to be like their ultimate recovery shoe. And I got a pair of them, and I actually found they're quite nice. But I go, this is not going to be the shoe for everyone. You you give someone a shoe with massive stack height, and they're gonna be so unstable in it. Yeah. Um, so I think brands are are looking for you know these extremes to to try and find that next big thing in the market. And I feel like I don't see where we can go next. Um, there was that big jump with super shoes, for example, like 2016, where like the initial kind of alpha flies or the next percents came out and it was that run four percent better, which was just groundbreaking. I don't I don't see where we can really go next, and and I think companies will just try all kinds of weird and wonderful things and and people will just keep buying it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, so I think people need to to really make um informed decisions um because prices will continue to go up. You know, companies will sell, you know, these recovery slides or recovery boots for thousands of dollars. And will they really help? Who knows? But people will buy them. So uh I'm just really interested to see where it goes. Um, I'm not sure where they can find that next big jump. Um, and I think people should just be wary of you know what they're buying as well, and not to buy into the latest craze to start with.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and all these promises that aren't probably entirely valid.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think the stack height thing as well is probably something I'll quickly touch on um because I think shoes are just trying to go higher and higher and higher with that stack.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, talk us through what stack height actually means.
SPEAKER_00:Stack height's basically the height of that shoe. So, like that foam base, for example. So you look at Hoker, Hoker's a big um Hoker. You you go 10, 15 years ago, no one really knew about it. And then in the last couple of years, they've just shot up to like the top of the market. Um everyone wants a Hoker pair of shoes because they've got so much foam. And that's the number one thing. People come in, they go, I bought these new shoes, they're so kind of cushion-y and they feel great. And then you know, they've got chronic ankle issues, and I go, it's not for you. Um I think companies are just obsessed with trying to go higher and higher and higher and higher with the stack height. Um, and I think people just need to be wary again that you know that's not necessarily the shoe for them. And I think the running shoe market will go the opposite way where they'll reach that limit and then they'll start to reduce the stack height again.
SPEAKER_02:So that's funny. That's and I think it's true. I mean, I I go back to when I was starting in the industry end of 2011, start of 2012. People were wearing vibrams and minimalist shoes, and they were running in them. And in the now, geez, it's been a little while, 13 years since then, we're in this, like people are running on pillows. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And it's it's I think that's another thing is people should definitely consult someone with footwear choices. Um, and talking about, you know, reducing load in the knee or an ankle, like we were talking about before, um, shoe footwear definitely makes a difference there. So you get a shoe with high drop, so that's the the gap between the heel and the forefoot. Um, a higher drop shoe is going to shift you more onto your heel because you're gonna hit that heavier cushion part first, which again is gonna load up your knee a little bit more. So you get someone with knee pain, you might put them in a something like four to eight mils, something a little bit more neutral. Um, but whereas like someone with Achilles pain, if they're running in like a minimalist shoe or something with lower drop, they're gonna load that forefoot, they're gonna load the calf these days. So you you're better off in something with higher drop.
SPEAKER_02:Um, so there's the individualization, right? It's like it's gonna be subjective every single time.
SPEAKER_00:So not every pair of shoes is gonna be good for a person. Yeah. Uh so I definitely think consulting someone with that is is a big thing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, interesting. Um, what trends do you think are overhyped and destined to fade outside of the shoes?
SPEAKER_00:Uh I think see, I love the recovery stuff, so I'm not gonna rat it out.
SPEAKER_02:I I So you're talking like boots, compression boots, compression boots, sauna, ice bar, all of that. Uh but you think it's gonna fade out? Came to mind.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I think people are obsessed with the boots at the moment. I find they only really work if you've done something stupidly long, like a marathon or a half marathon, where your legs are just super heavy in fatigue. That's when I do notice a difference. I think a lot of people, and I've got in trouble for saying this in the past, but a lot of people probably just don't benefit from them if they've just put them on every day.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Uh, there's certain medical conditions like that lymphatic drainage kind of stuff, super important and it can help. But um, I think everyone's obsessed with getting a pair of recovery boots at the moment. Yeah. I I think that'll probably drift off a little bit.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you've got to get some load into the system before it actually requires that level of recovery.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, you spoke, yeah, the maximalist shoes. I I think they'll start to fade away again a little bit. I think the barefoot running craze will come back a little bit, um, unfortunately. Um they're all crazy. Uh and then uh you're a barefoot runner.
SPEAKER_02:Mate, it's really funny. We um probably I'd say four or five years ago now, I was like, evolutionary, this makes sense. Yeah. Oh my god, look at the load on the knee. Yeah, and look at the running related injuries from and then you know, and then you go and and you just and I had to eat the humble pie when I jumped online and I looked up. Does heel strike increase injury? No, it increases impact, but it more at the knee. And then if you four foot strike, oh, it increases injury risk at the Achilles, and it was just like all this, it actually doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_00:It's load again, it's it's it's conditioning your body to handle what you want to do. Yeah, um not all barefoot runners are like this, but I feel like the the ones that are really passionate about it are very extremist. Totally.
SPEAKER_02:It's like it's it's literally like politics, it's like it's a spectrum, yeah. The loudest voices tend to sit on the out the the extreme ends, and everyone in the middle kind of is a bit quiet because it is a little bit like depends.
SPEAKER_00:If if someone came in to me and said I'm a barefoot runner or yeah, I run in minimalist shoes and they didn't really have any issues, I'd be like, Cool, I'm gonna laugh at you probably. But also, like, that's fine, like it's working for you. I'm not gonna change it. Look, maybe we look at conditioning your calves a little bit more and your foot and ankle. Uh but it's the people who go screaming from the rooftops, they're like, you know, if you're not in barefoot shoes, you're a terrible person, you're missing out on all of these benefits. So look, I'm not gonna judge you for for wearing them if it works for you, but again, I just think, yeah, some of them are a little bit extreme.
SPEAKER_02:Totally. And it's naive to say that it works for everyone else.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it just doesn't. That's the thing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's so funny. So yeah, I was like into it, but I was like, I better go double check, double check. And I was like, yeah, no, like you can't, you just can't be, you know, um, you can't die on your heel about this sort of stuff because it is always so subjective.
SPEAKER_00:I think one other little thing uh touch on in terms of like trends. Uh, I think some people in the physique space as well are becoming very absolutist.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and uh basing a lot of their things on research, which this sounds bad, but I I I think there's definitely a role for research and and all the evidence-based practice, but I also think we shouldn't throw out everything because there's just like the research, you don't find research papers where it works for 100% of people. There's always going to be those people that it doesn't work for, and and you've got to have those other skills to to try. And um, you know, people are very quick to throw out hands-on stuff.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I tend to do a lot of it in clinic and and I find it really works. Like if you like, I had someone in last night and you know, had some kind of SIJ pain and you know, is running, is racing on the weekend, and oh, look, strength, great. We could probably work on a little bit before then, but it's not really gonna do anything. Did a good kind of release session around that hip and really reduced symptoms of hopping and running and those kinds of things. So I I think sometimes like strength's great, but you you've got to do some of that hands on stuff and you've got to have the skills to be hey, I'm gonna move, I know how to mobilize this hip, or I know how to release this area because it still really does help.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, even though the evidence evidence might say, Oh, it actually doesn't do. Anything in the scheme of things. It's like, well, we've got to put that on on the side. I've got a human being in front of me that will respond well in a temporary, you know, sort of situation so that they can actually go and do what they intended to come and do. Exactly. That's that that practitioner lens, and it's so important, right? You can't die on the heel of research either. It's like yeah, you've got your your your one extreme end of you know the the the um the the the soft cushioned shoe with stability, the barefoot runner extreme ends and the the research end as well. It's like we can't be convinced about everything.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting, like isometrics are a big thing at the moment. So uh when those isometrics kind of first came out, it was a fix-for-all tendon pain. And it's constantly evolving. So like there's a Berlin method at the moment, which is like really high intensity short duration holds, and that's the latest best practice for certain things. Um, for like Patelotendon stuff, it's still, you know, kind of five by 45 seconds, so it's the the longer stuff. Um, but then sometimes I'll find like someone who's really sensitive, I get them doing kind of two-minute holds. So um it really just depends, and and that research is ever evolving. And now there's stuff coming out saying that isometrics sometimes just don't work at all. Yeah. Um, and you're gonna do slow, heavy stuff. And I think it's just having all those different tools in your toolkit to to adapt. So if isometrics don't work for someone, you've got something else you can try. And um, if you've thrown all those other skills out, then you're kind of stuck.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. And yeah, yeah. Um, and it's funny from the patient end of the spectrum as well. Like, you know, I deal with people and not that I treat people for for injuries, yeah, but a lot of the time when people are trying to work on something movement-wise or some sort of chronic issue that they might have, um it's really funny where it's like, we gotta try this and it may not work. And it's really hard to sell that to someone to say, if it doesn't, we'll only know in maybe a month or you know, six weeks' time. And then we'll just pivot a little bit and we'll go down this spectrum, but we can kind of tick that box and say, yes, okay. But how you respond, I can't tell until we try. You know, you don't know if you go, and uh sometimes it's not just one session. Did it work? Yes, no, maybe it's sort of always gonna be evolving.
SPEAKER_00:And you've got to consider other aspects like the person's general health as well. Um, like I had one lady who had really kind of raging kind of Achilles tendon issues, and you know, we tried a bit of load stuff and it didn't really work. And then we modified, you know, a bit of like again, you've got to be careful with your like scope of practice, but advised on some like dietary changes, and I've said, let's just go for a walk 20 minutes a day, and it improved. Yeah, um, because it definitely is a metabolic aspect of things, and and sometimes things just get better without you know, I gave this one guy the best set of like Achilles loading stuff. His Achilles was so cranky, came in the next week, goes, Man, I feel so much better. And I said, How do you deal with the exercise? He goes, I didn't do it, and I go, but it's better. So sometimes, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:We'll take the win. Yeah, so it's it's it's random. So yeah, how much of that sort of, as you just touched on dietary-wise, um um, that sort of multifactorial do you sort of go, listen, like here's the Achilles stuff and you're doing this right, but what about these other factors psychologically, stress, like you know, neural stress, cognitive stress at work, um, relationship stress, if you will, and then even the dietary side, do you sort of go, okay, I need to work with someone else to touch on?
SPEAKER_00:Dietary side is really important. Uh, like uh relative energy deficiency stuff with particularly bone stress and more prevalent in in females. So I am pretty quick to refer to dietitian for that. I can definitely advise on it and say, look, I I asked the questions as well, you know, have you been feeling well? Those kinds of things. And, you know, if they go, or if I'm suspicious of it, I go, hey, it might not be a bad idea to to chat to, you know, such and such. Um, and I can give them a heads up about what's going on, and they can, you know, have a look at your fueling and see if they can help out there. So I think diet's a super, super important one. Um, and then kind of sleep. Sleep's something that's very like it's neglected. A lot of people I see as well just have really high stress jobs. And I always ask about those things when I'm talking to someone where I go, you know, why is it why is it extra sore today or extra sore this week? You know, have you been stressed at work? Have you been getting regular sleep? What's your eating been like? And you know, one guy might go, oh, you know, I had a big weekend on the beers, or I've been having a few extra beers after work because I've been stressed, stuff like that. And it and it correlates with a little bit of an increase in their symptoms. So um, again, you can't really, you know, uh you it might not be the exact factor, but stuff like that, I it does commonly lead to an increase in in pain. So I am quick to refer on to someone. Um, I try my best to advise them on why. Yeah. Um, and I think definitely we we've got to look at those those factors when people come in, particularly athletes with with pain. One interesting story is um someone who used to work with uh like at that clinic um had a really kind of raging hamstring, like chronic hamstring tendinopathy triathlete, and we're looking, um, the boss was having a look at you know, why is it still going on and they had a look at diet and then was eating like a ton of ice cream every night.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:Um, would go through like a tub of ice cream um just because they were training so much, but yeah, massive kind of inflammatory factor there. Cut that out and symptoms improved. So yeah, again, you can't exactly correlate that but ice cream equals how to turn it up.
SPEAKER_02:We'll clip that up and put that, that'll go viral, mate. Yeah, but it's stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's important to to address those factors as well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a major, I think, point that a lot of people need to understand is that it's it's not just one thing and you know, just doing the right Achilles loading, you know, program for rehab may not get you there because of these other factors.
SPEAKER_00:There's a ton of other factors, and it happens.
SPEAKER_02:Um, in terms of tech's influence um and and how much more it's gonna have an influence. Like I look at Strava at Strava five years ago, there are a few people on it, now it's one of the biggest apps going. Um how do you see tech influencing running particularly positively? Um, and also physio, and then how do you see it?
SPEAKER_00:This is not worth worrying about. Uh Strava is a good and bad thing. Um, uh people are obsessed with uh how they look on Strava. Um, and I think it's very much like a body image thing on on social media where people go on Strava, they go, I'm not running far enough, I'm not running fast enough. Um they might hide their runs or they might increase their pace in their runs purely to have a good looking time on Strava for five people to give them kudos.
SPEAKER_03:So yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But I I I definitely think it's a big thing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And and it's something that I've done in the past too, where I go, nah, I've got to be under the five-minute case or under the six-minute case, or under the four-minute case. Like I've I've got to increase my pace here a little bit. Um, and and that's you know, that's an increase in load. Um, and that's where you might overstride a little bit, and and that's where little things start to to accrue and and turn into to a bigger problem. So Strava can be negative in that sense, but then also it's just great to see so many people on there and and moving. And you know, generally people are quite supportive on there, giving kudos, commenting, you know, if you've had a good marathon, heaps of people leave comments. So it's good in that sense. The other thing is like all the new tech in terms of measuring strength, um, the valve stuff. Um, we're getting some in finally now, which is exciting. I've managed to kind of make do. I had like a handheld dyno that I play around with, but um that's the trap as well is sometimes people get caught up too much in that that the tech side of things. Um, I definitely think it's super important and it's a good way for people to engage um with physio and go, oh hey, look, my quad's weaker on this side, or you know, my calf's weaker here, or I'm in the 40th percentile. Um, and people, okay, I've got something measurable to to work on. Yeah. But then sometimes I I I think clinicians can get too hung up on it. And and is it is it really necessary all the time? So um I feel like we've been able to get good outcomes without the technology.
SPEAKER_02:That's a good point.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, and it's funny listening to a lot of people talk about it too, where they um there's the like tenant guy Jake Tura, who doesn't use it at all and is getting good outcomes with Pateloton cases. And he mentioned, he goes, Is it really is it really necessary?
SPEAKER_02:That's a that's a good question for anyone to ask, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I see enough positives with it. Yeah. Um, and I think it's a good, it is definitely a good kind of outcome measure to to track. Um, but also don't get hung up if you don't have it. There's there's definitely ways to still improve a person and set good outcome measures with without the technology.
SPEAKER_02:So it's really funny. Like I'll have people that I'll test, and I actually wrote in our sort of mailing list that we'd send out once a month, uh once a week. And um, I tested two people, and one person had been training you know for two months and then tested at the start, four weeks in, eight weeks in, and they'd had all these newbie gains. It's 30% improvement upon 30% improvement for a hop test and a jump test, and looks amazing. And then had this other person who both of these individuals are in their 60s, both very healthy, yeah. Um, but the the one guy had trained his whole life, and so tested once, had maybe a nine percent improvement on the second test four weeks later, and then a five percent drop on the third test four weeks later again. And I was like, How I changed the narrative for each individual. I was like, this is really interesting, and that the person did really well. I'm like, Oh, you've been doing your homework, you've been doing your program high five, great. The other person who literally doesn't miss a session, every rep is meticulous, everything's just didn't get better. And I was like, Oh, it's okay, you've had a big training week. Like, yeah, your data's not always gonna be that good. But it's sort of, I like it, particularly for that person that you know is struggling potentially psychologically with an injury, and then they see a improvement and you go, yeah, this you're getting better, great, like everybody's winning, and then psychologically they might feel a bit better, they're gonna adhere to the rest protocol or the loading protocol that that's been prescribed. But at the same time, I've also seen it where the data doesn't give you the information you think or you want it to give you, and you've got to go, uh, don't worry, it's gonna be okay.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you just gotta have those skills because the data physio physio is like all kinds of like the clinical work, it doesn't always fit the narrative, and and you've got to have that adaptability to be like, okay, well, the results don't show improvement. Um, but that's where you might look at other things where you go, Oh, hey, it doesn't hurt you as much hopping out of the car, or your symptoms in the morning are less. Yeah, your strengths maybe not as you know, we're not seeing those numbers. Again, that could be a tester. Uh there's so many different conditions and factors on the day that can influence those things. Yeah. And that's where you've just got to have that communication as well, where you go, okay, what what are the other wins? You know, what can we try and keep people going? Oh, hey, I am making progress. I need to keep working on these things just because the the data doesn't match.
SPEAKER_02:Doesn't match, doesn't check out, don't, yeah, it doesn't mean throw, throw, um, throw the towel in. Yeah, it's it's um, it's pretty funny to sort of think and see. And um I guess that going back to the evidence side of things, you know, to create good evidence and good literature, it's actually comes down to data and comes down to data collection. Yet all these factors, you know, need to be considered. And I think it's where it's really hard to collect effective rehab or effective training data is we can't say, hey, here's a couple of pills. This one's a placebo, and you know you're going to take a placebo, this one's a placebo, but you think you're taking the trial. And so it sort of goes, and um, that's really easy to study and create some robust data on in terms of like pharmacological interventions. Very hard. It's like if you're doing squats, you know you're doing squats, you can't really exercise a control with that. So it sort of becomes retrospective in the findings.
SPEAKER_00:And it's interesting, um, like some of the research coming out about how, you know, uh queuing and perfect exercise isn't a thing. Um, and you know, Adam Eekins, for example, is very much like you just got a deadlift or you just got to squat. And and there's nothing wrong with that. Um, that'll work for some people. But for me, for example, like uh, you know, I've got to be really for me, I've got to be really focused on those little, you know, like pelvic tilt, core engagement, you know, you know, internal rotation, external rotation, all of those little things. And my pain varies a lot if I haven't, you know, addressed those factors. And, you know, my pain's coming on because I have some like poor patterns there. So I definitely think there's still importance. And that's that same thing where you know it's not going to work for everyone. Like, you know, an old lady who doesn't do much exercise, yeah. If I tell her to do some squat, she's probably gonna benefit because it's something, it's movement that she doesn't have.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Mechanical execution might be 30% of what you want it to be.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but she's moving. She's moving. Um, and and that still works for some healthy population, like she's healthy as well, but like the younger athletic population, but um there's also some people who really need that cueing to feel certain engagement, um, and whether that's just a psychological thing as well. But I definitely think that's another example of where the research isn't always the best thing. Yeah. And then you've got to adapt it to the person.
SPEAKER_02:So when someone comes in and they come to see me and they say, Oh, I saw the physio and they said my glutes don't work. Yeah, and you're like, Oh, okay, hang on, if they didn't work, you'd be able to stand up. Like, yeah, let's tone that down a bit. But we need to get better glute recruitment for that individual. How do you sort of communicate that? And and I guess for people listening that might be in that realm, because a lot of people do struggle with glute engagement voluntary. Uh how do you sort of work around that?
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's definitely it's a common thing that I see. Interesting study um was in runners with patelephemoral pain. Um, and it's common for the whole narrative that you know you got weak glutes, which causes patelephemoral pain. Um, but they did a did a study and they found that um people with weak glutes didn't necessarily develop patelephemoral pain. It was the opposite. It was people with patelephemoral pain uh developed weak glutes. Yep. Um, I mean, pain's a big inhibitor. Um so that's that's the theory there. Inhibitor of what? Of like that kind of muscle recruitment activation. So yeah, so people with um knee pain glutes would massively reduce in that that kind of strength there. So um it's definitely something to consider as well. Um, but it's often not a cause of issues, it's it's a response.
SPEAKER_02:Um yeah, that's that's a pretty strong message. It's really interesting. Yeah. For a lot of particularly people running to understand.
SPEAKER_00:So yes, just because you're strengthening your glutes doesn't mean you're you you're not gonna get any pain, and a lot of times you still will. Um, and it might be because you're doing too much load, um, or you know, there's weaknesses in other parts of the chain. So um I guess that narrative that that strength training as well will prevent injury. We've got to be careful there. Yeah, it definitely will get you stronger, and and I still feel like it does reduce the risk of injury, um, but doesn't mean it prevents it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it won't stop it from happening, particularly in that scheme of your load management. And if you haven't got that right, as you as you said, and as it sort of always comes back to strength training, is another mechanism of load.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:A lot of people misunderstand that. They just kind of go, okay, let's do strength training. It's gonna be the cure to everything. And it's like, well, hang on.
SPEAKER_00:It it is, it is just more load, it's exposing um certain areas of your body to to different types of load. Um, it's building capacity to be able to handle it, and it's interesting too when you look at it, you know, running, you take it's thousands and thousands of cycles. And then you go to the gym and you do three sets of six calf raises, and you go, how how is that conditioning me to run? Which is it's it's really interesting. Yeah, and that's why there's that importance of increasing the weight there. It's going, okay, I'm gonna make sure all my reps are really high quality, so I improve the capacity of my calf to some degree. Doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna, you know, reduce my, you know, it's a thousand cycles, ten thousand cycles with your with your running, it's not gonna prevent any injury there. And that's why gradually increasing your running load is super important because you're just exposing yourself to those repetitive cycles. But if you can get your calf a bit stronger with you know heavy gym sets, then you know that that's something.
SPEAKER_02:Yep, yep, and we'll take it. Yeah, it's it is funny, you know, 10, three sets of 30 squats is gonna help your you know, Achilles pain. It's like actually, when you think about it, how? And that it's just more the understanding that I think um setting the expectation, having the consumer understand from an expectation perspective, because we have this luxury of working with bodies and reading the information and discussing it with other professionals all the time. If you're in an office all day, yeah, working as a lawyer, you're not thinking about that stuff. You just can't now my knees sore. Yeah, and if you had to have the literacy to understand the mechanics, the load, the programming, the mechanism of injury, you probably wouldn't be have much time to actually do your actual job. So, you know, there's a lot more to it, but I guess to bring it home, yeah. Um take the social media internet thing, take physio and running, take your own experience. If you were just to wish upon everybody to have an understanding of one message, sorry to make you try and bottle this up into one thing, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um what would that be? Patience. Uh I I that's probably the first word that that comes to mind. So patience to have patience. Patience, yeah. Patience to have patience. Because, you know, it things aren't just gonna happen overnight. And uh we've just you know, we see all these things on social media of these, you know, high-level athletes and people with you know big muscles and six packs and stuff. That just doesn't happen overnight. So, you know, there's not 10 ab exercises to get you ripped in you know five days. It's that's years and years of training, and um, people just get obsessed with trying to achieve things as fast as possible. And I fall into that trap as well. It's you know, stick to a plan, see someone that can, you know, help guide you there. And, you know, it's not gonna be perfect all the time. I saw someone share that on social media. They go, the best runners are the ones that, you know, turn up consistently and you know, they do the really boring 20k long run that they feel crap in, and they do that week in, week out, and that's when they start to see the the improvements there. It's not all kind of sunshine and rainbows. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's not that one strava that makes you look like a superstar. Don't share the right. That's where the that's where the injury comes from. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Awesome. Well, Shale Matt, you're doing you're doing God's work. You you know, the message I think you're spreading, particularly through the Trails of the King stuff, it's you're making it fun, you're making it realistic, um, setting real ex realistic expectations, which I think is um it's undervalued by the consumer because it's not what we want to hear. Yeah, um, and it goes against particularly what might motivate us, but at the end of the day, it's what we need, um, which is really important. So, you know, by all means, on behalf of the consumers, don't stop.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and then, mate, as a physio, you can see your passion and and your work. Um, no doubt you're looking after a lot of people. And um, yeah, I'm really excited to sort of see where it all goes for you. And yeah, please don't go chase that medicine medicine thing, mate. Stay in the physio realm, stay working with the bodies. I'm trying to encourage people to stay below down here. Yeah, um, but yeah, more than anything, mate, just uh thanks very much for having the courage. Thanks, thanks so much for jumping on the podcast today. It's exciting. Mate, we'll have to get you back sometime.
SPEAKER_00:It's uh it's different. It's been weird being on the other end. Being a guest. Yeah, that's cool. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_02:Cool, thanks, mate. Thanks for listening to today's episode. For more regular insights into SOF, be sure to check us out on Instagram or Facebook, or visit our website at science of fitness.com.au. Once again, we thank you for tuning in to the Science of Fitness podcast.