The Science of Fitness Podcast
Welcome to the Science Of Fitness podcast where we aim to inspire you to live a healthier and more fulfilling life as we share evidence and anecdotes on all things health, fitness, performance, wellness and business.
Hosted by Kieran Maguire, Co-Owner and Director of Science Of Fitness with an Undergraduate degree in Exercise Science and Masters degree in High Performance, the podcast includes guests and friends of SOF from all walks of life sharing their knowledge and stories within their field of expertise.
Join us as we provide listeners with digestible and relatable educational tools and entertaining stories to inspire a healthier and more fulfilling life.
The Science of Fitness Podcast
Optimising Your Stride: A Physio’s Guide To Running Well With Dominic Morosini
Ever felt “stuck in the mud” mid-run or trapped by a watch that insists you’re in zone two while your lungs disagree? We sat down with sports physio Dominic Morissini to unpack what efficient running really looks like, how to build it, and why the smartest changes often start away from the track.
Dom breaks running down into what you see and what you load: kinematics and kinetics. From there, we explore two common archetypes. The springy runner who collapses at the hips under fatigue needs targeted strength and mid-stance control before any technique cues. The strong hybrid runner who overstrides and lingers on the ground needs reactivity, rhythm, and short-contact plyometrics to learn “hit and go.” Instead of forcing a new stride overnight, Dom shows how concise drills and simple lifts teach your nervous system to self-organise, producing smoother form and fewer niggles in weeks.
We also tackle the truths most runners miss. Heel striking isn’t evil unless it comes with overstriding. Pronation is a feature, not a flaw, when your foot stores and releases energy. Barefoot strength in the gym reveals balance and loading errors, and the big toe is a hidden power source for toe-off. If you want one starting point that helps almost everyone, begin with hips and abs: stack the pelvis, free the hip flexors, and wake up glutes to stabilise mid-stance.
For data lovers, Dom brings lactate testing into focus. Heart rate is useful but noisy; heat, sleep, and caffeine skew it. Lactate thresholds pinpoint real training zones by speed, reducing “grey zone” slog and making easy runs truly easy. Pair those zones with breath checks and perceived effort, and you’ll train smarter in all seasons. When analysis overload creeps in, leave the watch at home and head for trails. Joy is a performance enhancer.
If this helped, follow the show, share it with a running mate, and leave a quick review so others can find these practical tools. Got a myth you want busted or a topic you’re curious about? Send us a message and we’ll dive in next.
Welcome to the Science of Fitness Podcast, where we aim to inspire you to live a more healthy and fulfilling life as we share evidence and anecdotes on all things relating to health, performance, business, and wellness. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, back to the Science of Fitness Podcast. Special guest today, Dominic Morissini. Dom is a physio down the coast that's off Burley with us and he's done all sorts of running stuff. Dom, welcome. Thank you very much. So yeah, this will be the second physio that's going to be talking about running with us. We had Shale from Trail Kings.
SPEAKER_00:You know Shale well. Listen to that, actually. He's awesome.
SPEAKER_03:Mate, he's great. So yeah, uh it's sort of, I guess, the theme a lot of people are running, um, probably more than ever before. I don't know if you know nor have any stats on that, but uh it's everywhere. So pretty excited about this one. But before we get into the running, before we get into the physio, a new little segment, as I mentioned to you, um, that I want to try is a little bit about the person that uh that we're talking about today. So we're going deep, we're going meaningful, we're going philosophical, if you will. Um, first one of three questions. Um, if you could make one change in the world, what would that be?
SPEAKER_00:Um I would probably make movement training at a high standard done from a very early age. So I think in the school system or whatever it might be, the ability for coaches to come in and teach kids about movement mechanics and then give them the tools that they have a decent amount of knowledge moving forward, what good mechanics potentially could look like. Um when we are younger, we kind of it's awesome to just move and get out there and move well. But I think we kind of get stuck in this trap as we move on in time where we start to listen to lots of outside influences. And I think if we kind of had the right information early and people are like came in and showed us how to move through a lunge or a squat or whatever it might be in a really early age group, similarly with running or whatever it might be, I think it would create not only athletes, but it would create humans that one were more conscious of movement and how their body moves through space and allows them to really think about and analyse their own movement and become very good at that as they get older. Because I'm finding that clinically people come in and they just don't have that deeper education about how the body moves and how it works. So that's what I would do. I like that.
SPEAKER_03:They almost don't um have the movement competency to achieve the goal that they might set out. Yes, they end up breaking, um, and that breaking when you go to the root of evil is underpinned by a lack of literacy from a movement perspective. Absolutely. You know, we have the same approach to mathematics and English and science, so it it's just another thing to learn, another skill to develop that should be fundamental. Yeah, I stand with you on that, mate. Strongly like it. Um we are very biased in our industries, but I know, I know. That's why we do what we do, I guess. We'd almost be out of a job if they were very good at it. So that's it. Um Rahda. If you pick the number one lesson you've learned, be it through a positive or negative experience in the last 12 months, what would it be?
SPEAKER_00:I think the number one thing I've learned in the last 12 months is put yourself in a room where there's most of the people in that room are way smarter than you in regards to what you do is a career and a passion. I've found that early on in my career I kind of thought I knew it all.
SPEAKER_03:And the smartest time in your entire career is first year out of uni, right?
SPEAKER_00:That's it. And you get stuck in you're getting stuck in that pattern of like that pattern recognition. You do something really well with a client, and then you just do that same thing with that client again and again and again that comes in with the same condition. And I just found that the biggest part of it was going back to university this year and studying a master's, was that's what I found for the first time in you know four or five years since I've been a physio. I found I was feeling like I was back in a place where, oh my god, everyone around me is smarter. I know way less than what I thought I knew. And it's really been a huge eye-opener in terms of the like the the width of actual sport and performance and how far it actually goes, uh, and how good you can actually get with each client and how much more time it actually takes to work with the elite performer versus, for example, work with the recreational performer and the amount of effort and things that it really takes to get the most out of a client that you're working with. And I think that's the biggest thing is this year is I've learned so much being around really smart academics, but also amazing clinicians that work at the highest level of elite sport. Yeah, epic. Um, I'm assuming you love what you do. Absolutely. I love parts of what I do, and I'll elaborate on that. Um, I love teaching, that's my passion. Both of my parents are school teachers, so I think it comes from there. And I love the side of my profession where I get to teach people the skills and the tools to go out and feel the change in their body and then feel the change in their life as a result of that. So give them everything you can to then be self-proficient to go out and you know, practice that, practice what they preach in their own way. And I love that side of my job. Uh, I also love obviously the strength and conditioning side of it and the hands-on thing I'm not loving as much these days, and I'm finding myself kind of shifting out of that less more less musculoskeletal and more sports, physiotherapy, performance-based stuff now with high-level athletes, which has been awesome. Um, but yeah, I do love what I do, absolutely, and I think just who I work with has changed so much, and what I'm passionate about working with has changed a lot too. How? I used to well, for the last few years, I've kind of seen myself as like the running physio guy, like that's kind of what people would come to see me for a lot more, and where I'm working at the moment, I'm finding that I'm seeing lots of different sports and high-level athletes in a lot of these sports. I've been treating a lot of boxers that either fight on the national or the international scene, which has really changed my perspective on boxing as a sport. I've also found myself getting really deep into snow sport injury and snow sport performance. And then the other one is triathlon. I've been endeavoring in some triathlon myself coming from running into triathlon. I've shifted a little bit this year in terms of what I do for myself in my training, and I'm just finding that that's leading me to treat a lot more triathletes and really finding out the mechanics and the understanding around triathlon has been really cool. So I think that's been the biggest shift this year.
SPEAKER_03:That's interesting. Okay, well, you've answered why you love what you do. I think it just oozes out of those uh that voice of yours, mate. So yeah, um, I'm excited to really get into this. Let's go back to the start of your journey as an athlete and and then into physio. Um, took us through a little bit of your sort of younger years as an athlete and what that all looked like.
SPEAKER_00:Oh god, I I actually I I've lived on the Gold Coast most of my life. I spent You're lucky fast. Yeah, no, it's a pretty cool place. I actually grew up in the northern rivers of New South Wales, which I think is even more beautiful. Beautiful better, even better, even better. I was a super like coastal kid, surf all my life kind of thing, from probably like the age of 10 onwards. Spent a lot of time down surf club that way. So I spent a lot of my early years swimming and kind of in those paddle-based sports a lot more. I was my dad's Italian and I've got Italian background in my family, so we had a big soccer football background too, and I found myself having to almost choose at the age of 15 what I wanted to do. I chose football and came up to Brisbane and moved up here and played at a quite a high level for the Brisbane Raw under eighteens and then the youth team. So I went to Marist College Ashgrove here and boarded, which was awesome. Did you really? I did. I went to Marist. Did you? Yeah, yeah, no way. 2011. Yeah, cool. So I went to Marist up until 2016, I think. Um loved it, loved Marist and loved everything about it. Um, and spent my time obviously there playing soccer, which is awesome. And that's kind of where my journey into, I suppose, sport really started and and knowing what kind of semi-elite, semi-professional sport looked like being in an A-league academy was really eye-opening for me about what it took to become an elite athlete. Um, and in that time, that's when I kind of started to suffer my big injuries, and then that led me down the path that I am now. So I would say I was a field sport athlete first, and then I found my love for insurance sport as time went on. Yeah, I suppose.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, okay. Um, what point in your sporting career did you go, this isn't gonna be my career, and I'm gonna move to physio? Like, what was it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm gonna do both, and then you had to sort of I I was I still want to be an elite athlete now. It's so funny. Every part of his life, I could still become an elite athlete. And it's just like, oh, you're 26 now, just give it a restor. Um, but in that sense, yeah, I think I was 15 and I had a pretty significant injury to my knee. Um, I was playing Rid the Raw at the time, did the injury to my knee, and then it was kind of at that point where they they just release you when you're young like that. Like if you're not if you're constantly getting injured and your body's not robust, they just go, Oh, we've got younger other kids that are just as good as you that we can squeeze into the program. So it was probably at that point that I was like, oh, maybe my football career is kind of over, and then that's where my passion for the kind of physiotherapy kind of came from from that standpoint. But it was around then, and then over the years, I I got into trail running and was like, Oh, I could go elite with this. I think I think if I'd really put everything into it, I could get back to that kind of level, but yeah, no, unfortunately not. Didn't quite have the tendons, yeah, not quite there. Blame your parents, mate. No, that's what I reckon too. They just didn't give me the genetic, yeah. I don't have enough pace, enough, enough height. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:It's just the lead, it's a lever thing, it's physics. Absolutely. Um, okay, let's go a little bit off track here because this is a topic that I wanted to discuss um with particularly physios, and I'm gonna sort of go into it with sports physicians at some point. It feels like we're getting more injured at a younger rate collectively in the sort of sporting realm. What would you say? Like, one, do you agree on that, or is that just a confirmation bias? We're playing more sports, so more like what do you reckon?
SPEAKER_00:I think uh the biggest thing is I feel like children are individualizing in a sport a lot younger. So, kind of what that seems to be doing is for example, if you've got an ath a kid that's really good at athletics and they're 14 and they're doing little A's, they'll do sprints, they will do long jump, they will do javelin, they will do and what that kind of does, it develops physical capabilities in each sport, which makes them really robust across so many different movement patterns. What I'm seeming to find is that people will pick a sport earlier a lot more than they used to, which kind of means that they're not actually exposing their system to lots of different variables. I think that's the first thing. I think the other side of things is people think that obviously, like recovery levels and all that sort of thing, there's more research coming out that it's better. Um, so therefore we can push our kids harder within sport and load them so much more from an earlier and younger age when they still don't have the physical capabilities to tolerate that load. So I think as a combination of a lack of variety with kids' sport now, where they're just going into something and then they're doing it way too much. So I would definitely agree with your statement because I definitely see it. I'm seeing a lot more kids coming in with more severe injuries to see me now than I did when I first started my career.
SPEAKER_03:Another one that I'm conscious of uh is the consciousness of injury itself and the presence that it might be present itself, yeah. Which is um once it's in your brain, it's in your brain. And then this is all theoretical stuff. You know, how do we quantify this? I don't know. I'd love to, you know, sit and consider it with someone that's probably a little bit better at numbers than me. But oh, you might do an ACL or you might strain your hamstring here, or careful when sprinting versus just that mindless freedom and enjoyment of play, the mindless or sort of mindful aggression of comp competition. I don't care about the pain or the injury that might or might not have because it's not even a consideration. I'm just going. And I'm it's it's a big thing for me, having you know, sort of worked in elite sport and seen athletes of all kinds that um the ones that don't seem to get injured don't even think about getting injured. It's it's like there's a big mental thing. So again, I don't know how we quantify that, but I think you know, a lot of kids and a lot of parents going, Oh, does that hurt? Should we go get it checked out versus mate, shut up?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, uh it's definitely a cultural change. There's like the what do they call it? The helicopter parent um has increased, I believe. Of course, especially here in Australia, from what I've seen. I see what I used to do and climb trees and do all sorts of rubbish when I was a kid, and now if you climb a tree, you're in trouble at school. Like it's dangerous, yeah. It's dangerous. There's um there's that kind of aspect of like they will know what movement pattern or like what experience is going to lead them down into a potential injury path. Let them learn themselves, yeah. Rather than kind of telling them and then giving them fear, because they'll respond to fear so quick. Yeah, yeah. So I yeah, I definitely understand that kind of thing. But I think we're also just I think we're quantifying things way more now. We're using science a lot more than we used to, and I think that has fantastic, you know, benefits, which I'll speak about probably today. But at the same time, like back in the day when we didn't have the ability to quantify so much, people seem to not get injured as much. So yeah, yeah, it's one of those things where they kind of just listen to their body a bit more and maybe just like dealt with it and then kept moving forward. How do you feel? Right, yeah, how do you feel? Oh, yeah, I feel all right, a bit sore, but I'm gonna keep playing. Yeah, kind of cool.
SPEAKER_03:Like if I manage your load perfectly, it'd make no sense, but you feel fine, you feel safe. So let them go. How often do you find you're asking patients that how does it feel? Like disregard the scan or the diagnosis or the the return to play time that's usually prescribed. Yeah. How do you feel?
SPEAKER_00:Probably more than I used to. I think there's definitely an over-reliance on scans and that sort of thing within the physiotherapy realm where realistically that diagnosis may not reflect function and symptoms. So therefore, asking them how they feel when they're doing a particular movement, you know, rather than relying on that scan and being like, oh, you better not do that just because you got this, you know, relative tear and it's a couple of mil or whatever it might be. You know, I you see scans all the time within physiotherapy where people get a scan, but they're symptom-free. So yeah, I find myself asking it a lot more. Like, where do you feel it? How does it feel? Does that feel better? Well, like just listening to the patient a little bit more in front of you rather than relying so much on one research but two, um, the scan and the objective data sometimes can be a beautiful thing for a clinician, and that's where the art comes into it, and it's why I believe that we'll never be out of a job because you can't just rely on data and science all the time. Yeah, it takes the human connection out of things too.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, that's gonna be part of my uh my next question is is is the gap between research, the gap between quantifiable data, the gap between you know all this evidence as well, and the actual real practice. But we'll go into that a little bit more we say. Um if you sort of think about your still bubbling away aspirational pursuit of elite, um how does that shape the way you approach treating patients that are there?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I find myself with elite athletes. They will there's two types of elite athletes that I work with. They're the ones, there's there's some elite athletes that love for you to just give them the information. They don't care what it is about the background of that information, like they don't care about that's why the body is doing that. Like there's that type of elite athlete, and then you've got the elite athlete that literally wants to know everything about their body and how this links and that links and and all that sort of thing. So I think in approaching elite athletes, about it's about finding the mindset of an elite athlete and what they actually want to know about their condition. Some of them just go, just give me my stuff and like make sure it's obviously nice and complex and you know you're you're covering all factors. But if you give me my program, I'll go do it. And then the other side of things is just listening to that other elite athlete that's like, teach me about the mechanics, give me the tools. Why is this? Why is this happening? And you don't get that so much in a recreational athlete, I find like they want to know everything, but they also want so much out of you as a practitioner, which can be really rewarding, but also really draining at the same time. Um, so I find that yeah, working with that elite athlete, it's about kind of just really delving into that at them as a human. Um, and that's really helped me kind of being on the brink of an elite athlete, kind of understanding that, because I personally am one of those elite athletes that wants to, like, you know, sub-elite athlete that wants to know everything about my training and how to get better. How can I improve my performance by that one percent? And I think that just means that when I treat an elite athlete now or I'm working with an elite athlete, give them those one percenters because those one percenters can mean a huge mindset change for their whole training and their whole performance. So um, yeah, cover all bases with those guys. But then obviously, like I said, there's some that just cool, give me the program. I'm gonna go do it. And they do it, and they do it and they believe it. Absolutely, and they believe in themselves so much, so yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, excellent. Uh, let's go into the nuance of running um because I think this is your jam, and you've probably we've already touched on it. Um if you were to sort of, and this is this is brutal, it's almost a brutal question. Yeah, if you were to talk about running uh mechanics and what does it actually encompass and why does it matter? Um, are there genetic differences? There's a lot to unpack here.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah, like there's plenty to unpack in that kind of statement just to start with. But I just see running mechanics, how does someone move through space? Like what is happening within the body, and then what forces are acting on the body and then from the body to lead to forward momentum or progression. So I kind of like to break down running mechanics into two areas. I always will look at what we call kinematics, or like what do we actually see? So, you know, someone's running and you notice that, you know, they might have an overstride and a heel strike. Like that's the kinematics within the body, you know, the joint angles, that sort of thing. And then the other way I look at it is okay, what forces are caused as a result of what we see in the body? So we call that like kinetics. So, you know, what's the ground reaction force if you land out in front versus if you land underneath your hip and your pelvis? So they're the two ways that I kind of like to break down mechanics. Like, what does the person actually look like? And what are the forces that result as a result of them moving in that way? And what we often find that if we kind of put those two things together, you'll find athletes that will be able to utilize forces in a really effective way, and then some athletes that won't be able to utilize forces in a really effective way, and then that for therefore leads to performance changes, but also can lead to susceptibility to injury and increases in other areas. So it is a decent big question, and there is a lot to unpack with that. But if we're making it really simple, I kind of just go, what's happening in the body, what forces are generated, when they bring it together, how does that lead to good performance or potentially performance that's not so good? Um, in terms of genetics, like there are so many factors that you see within genetics. I think it's like genetics, environment, um, and then there's a couple other factors that can lead to an athlete's performance. Obvious genetic differences that you see is like bone morphology in your kind of Kenyan African athletes and that sort of thing, really long femurs. Um, but you also see morphological differences in terms of like tendon size and tendon stiffness in those guys as well. So long femurs, long tibias, and then really long tendons and really stiff tendons. Um and then movement pattern-wise, like they learn from a really young age. They they're kind of that side of the spectrum that they are just let they just get let out, go run, and they kind of learn themselves the best way to run in a way. And they're they're you know, their mechanics are just so beautiful to watch those marathon guys. So it's almost so natural. It's so natural. Yeah, they just get out and well, they also run around barefoot from a really young age, it helps from a tendon perspective. So, and like a foot strength tendon perspective. So, yeah, like genetic difference make a huge difference in what you see with a runner that comes in, because you'll have runners that come in that are really lanky and have those really strong bone morphological differences compared to someone that's a bit shorter, a shorter femur, um, a little bit more bulky around through the hipslash midsection, and they just don't move as well. Like, there's definitely that genetic difference. So, you know, someone comes in and they're recreational, and it's there's there's two kind of athletes that you'll see. You'll see those ones that are like really lanky and really strong tendons, and they move so gracially and they spring, and then you see those other athletes that come in that have really strong physical qualities, like they're super strong, they've done a heap of work in the gym, but when you tell them to run, they like sink like they're stuck in mud. Um, and it's a really uh interesting kind of comparison that we can make, and it's about one identifying that and then going about making the changes because if this athlete really wants to take their running seriously, it's about okay, you've got really good physical qualities, but how can we make your um, for example, your tendon stiffness or your reactivity or whatever it might be, and your actual movement patterns a little bit more efficient? So yeah, mechanics is is broad, there's can be a lot to it, um, and and that's why I love it because not everyone's the same. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um is there any major gender differences that you've seen anecdotally? And then evidence-wise, is there anything that points out?
SPEAKER_00:Not so much evidence-wise, not that I've looked into so much from an evidence perspective, um, male versus female. What I do see generally in the clinic is it's really an interesting one because I have seen female clients that come in that have like a crossfit hyroxy background, and they once again have really strong physical components, and some of them don't have as much of that reactive component. For example, I had two really different female athletes come in the same week. One was really lanky and had that kind of netball-y background where she was super springy, and then I had another athlete that came in and she came from like a powerlifting background, and they both moved so different. One was super springy, but kind of at times would sink through mid-stands because she just didn't have like the muscular capabilities to hold herself in a good place. And then you had another athlete that was really kind of rigid through the midsection, but really struggled to kind of generate any positive forward progression just purely because she just hadn't trained or spent time focusing on that component of I suppose fitness andor training. Um, if you to kind of make a difference between men and men and women, I suppose what I do see is men are just kind of able to shift weight in a running sense or or like move in a way that is generally more powerful. Um but look, I don't really compare male and female so much in that sense. I kind of just look at an athlete from more just a perspective of what's happening within the muscles, what's happening with the tendon structure, what's happening with their motor control. If we bring it all together, what is the main things we need to focus on with that athlete?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Let's stay on those two major areas of identification, the free energy tendon person that's lanky and springy. Um, as you mentioned, that example sometimes lose integrity through the midsection. Um how do you deal with them? We'll jump to the other body type, if you will, yeah, in a moment. But yeah, do you often see that that's the case? They have this lovely athletic ability, degree of fatigue slips in and they start to sort of fall apart from the hips and the spine.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, definitely. I think both athletes under fatigue, if they haven't got enough load and they actually haven't run that much under fatigue, they'll both kind of lead and and that will happen. They'll just kind of start to lose form and sink a little bit. From that sort of sinking midsection.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, like both of them will do that. Yep, sorry, let's just stay on that sink statement because I know exactly what you mean with the listeners. Yep. What do you mean? What does that look like?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um the best way that I can kind of describe it is I suppose if you can imagine you're running through a field of grass and it's kind of like muddy underneath. So what happens is you can't kind of like, or even sand's a really good example. If you're running through sand, you kind of you kind of struggle to really bounce off quickly. You kind of sink and like lose a little bit of that force and kind of drift into the sand before you're able to push off. I feel like that's the easiest way to kind of visualize what that might look like. And what tends to happen is uh an athlete will strike the ground, they will lose kind of a straight, what we call sagittal plane motion, and they'll start to their knee will drift in, their hip will drop, and basically they just spend a bit of time in that position before they spring onto their next step. So they'll lose efficiency, they just lose efficiency.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, I like that. Um, all right, so that you know the person's breaking down from a fatigue perspective in that midsection, they're sort of sinking into that, they're getting that knee sway in, their hips are sort of you know swinging out. Where are you going here? Is this uh you need to practice running in a better position more, or are you going strength and conditioning, you're going to the gym, you're going to Pilates, that sort of thing?
SPEAKER_00:I think it's a combination. I would do both with an athlete like that. With what do you start with? I start with strength with these guys. Um I will get them in positions where they've actually got to spend some time there and see how the body moves in that way. So, for example, if you had that patient like that would start to sink through mid stance or something like that, we do some assessments around, you know, what does their single leg squat look like? What do they look like when they do a regular squat, a lunge, whatever it might be. But then we'll actually we'll do that at a higher velocity. What do they look like when they do a split jump, a single leg hop? Um, and then we watch, we we we do all those sort of things and we watch them run again, see if there's any changes. Um, but yeah, I'd work on what part of the gate cycle when we watch them run, do they struggle? And then for that particular person, give them strength and conditioning related to that exact part of the gait cycle or movement pattern that they struggle. They would tune in on that and focus on that for a little while, then we reassess. And I also tell them, what do you feel now? Go focus on it, even if they do a couple of sets of an exercise and just kind of practice what it feels like to hold a really stiff pelvis in a stiff trunk position. Then we come back to the treadmill and I say, run again, but just think about what you felt there. And then sometimes I'll notice a difference immediately, but then sometimes obviously strength, hypertrophy, they take time to develop. So for a client like that, yeah, strength comes first. Uh, and then once we see that, often I'll see that they'll come back in and we may not even need to do much from a you know a technique gate analysis perspective moving forward because they're starting to move, like they've got the stiffness, they look really good when they actually run, but they're sinking a little bit. So once you've worked on that, you may not even need to then go work on all right, let's do some drills and make sure you, you know, they're kind of just there and they're really comfortable. And like, I feel amazing. And so you don't actually need to do too much more. They just go into the maintenance, that's it, do the stuff and and and keep feeling good.
SPEAKER_03:That's it. Um, other end of the spectrum, that really strong athlete that's probably come from a decent strength training background. Um, the whole hybrid athlete things probably comes to mind all these guys, these big strong gym guys that are now really running a lot, um, they lack the ability to generate stiffness to utilize that stretch reflex cycle and that recoil that we hopefully naturally can uh have in our body. Um, what are you doing to help them? One, how are you identifying it? Um, are they too sinking? Um, is it similar to what you know is expressed mechanically in those people that get fatigued and sort of sway at the hip and the knee, or is it different? And then how are you developing the capabilities and capacities to get them enjoy that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, like a lot of these guys, I'll notice when they run on a treadmill, for example, that there's a few things that'll happen. They usually just spend a lot of time on ground contact. They like to feel stable before they push off. They like will just go they they're so comfortable with obviously lifting heavy weights, and that requires obviously feet being on the ground the whole time. So they generally just be like, I'm gonna spend as much time on the ground as I can before I push off. And what that kind of leads to is it'll lead to like really long ground contact times, which then leads to really slow cadence. And that's the two kind of things that I'll find in these guys. They will spend a lot of time on the ground, then their cadence is really slow, which means they need to increase their stride length, then they overstride, then they're out in front with a heel strike. And if you combine a heel strike and an overstride, that's when you get problems. And a lot of these guys come in with knee, shin, sometimes hip issues as well. Rather than, like very rarely will some of these guys come in with Achilles, um, calf, hamstring tendinopathy, those sorts of things, because they've never actually got themselves or they're Body in a position where they're actually starting to utilize some of these structures, for example. So with an athlete like that, I will generally watch them run. We do strength assessment anyway, just to see how they move through space with general strength assessment. It's really important to do with everyone. But then I'll actually watch them do things like I'll get them to hop off a box and land and then spring straight back up. And I actually like the best way to do that's on like a valve, like a force deck, to actually see what their time, how much time they do spend on the force deck itself. Um you can also just obviously subjectively have a look and be like, oh shit, like fire out. And they and they'll go, it is really hard for me to spring off right now. I feel like I have to sink and then push. Um jump as much jump instead of like pogo spring. They don't know, they don't really know how to you ask them to do a pogo and they'll start to just jump and do a single-leg jump and like land and how try and get as much height as they can. That's typically one thing that I find. But then I'll also get them to do these ones in particular to do your kind of running drills. I'll get them to what I'll get them to switch from like a 90-90 position. I'll get them to do A skips, I'll get them to do high knees, I'll get them to do things where they've got to really kind of hit the ground and then switch and explode into the next position to see how fast they can do that and see if they struggle. A lot of them are out of breath within five to ten seconds and they go, oh my god, this is so hard. But they also go, wow, that feels really difficult compared to lifting 150 kilos on a squat. And just them saying that kind of tells me as well, all right, that's the component that you need to really focus on if you want to get better at your running. So that's how I would approach that. You just kind of you just change the goalposts for that person.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And it's it's really funny, right? Like if you want to start to access the stuff, the skill set to develop is often the place that you're not very good. Absolutely. And so it's going there and then spending some time there. Um, you're not going to get better at you know, a new set of skills doing something that is completely, you know, comfortable and the opposite end of the spectrum. Yeah, that's it. Um well that sort of touches on the mechanical uh issues. Comparing your elite runners with your recreational runners, and like we can talk competitive recreational runners that are hitting that sub-four Mara through to you know, maybe the one that is hitting a six-hour marathon versus your elite guys. What do you think the and you're not allowed to say genetics, I'll take that one out. What's the biggest difference?
SPEAKER_00:Probably injury profile, like what we see in that actual athlete. Um, because of one, the amount of loading that an elite athlete puts through their body, which requires obviously years and years and years of practice, they often don't struggle with mechanical related injuries in a way. Um so, for example, an elite athlete, a lot more elite athletes that I've seen that run and do triathlon and bits and pieces like that, a lot of their injuries are to tendon structures. And so, for example, Achilles stuff, just from because they are so springy and they're spending so much time loading that structure because they've found that that's economically really beneficial for them, they tend to overload that structure within training, and then that's when they might get that niggly tendinitis or that tendinopathy. When I was in my first year out of university, with my boss at the time he was working with Sally Pearson, um, obviously Olympic hurdle, amazing athlete, and all her injury, all her injuries were basically tendon-based. She had a hamstring, I think she had a calf tear, then she had a yeah, a hamstring, like an Achilles tendinopathy, and it was really niggly and really aggravated because she was such an explosive, um, incredibly really sound mechanical athlete, these were the issues that she struggled with. It was just overload at those speeds. So I often find that those, even those elite marathon runners, they're the ones that they struggle with. More of the, you know, I find it's more of those posterior structures more than anything, even foot-related stuff like navicular stress fractures and bits and pieces like that. Versus your recreational runner that I find they they get a lot more of the kind of mechanical related potential injuries, and what you'll typically see in nearly every single recreational runner that I've seen come in, they'll have knee pain, or they'll have shin splints, or they'll have some sort of lateral hip tendinopathy as a result of potential Trendellenberg and they're really sinking through mid stance. Um, so just injury profiles are really different. You can often find that if you give the recreational athlete strength, strength training, and then a little a couple of cues around potential footwear or just loading principles, they can really kind of quickly get out of the mud. Versus your elite athlete, you have to be really methodological about your approach from the perspective of a tiny adjustment in load could be the difference between them overloading a structure and not overloading a structure. So it's just I suppose the specificity that's required as well, but also the type of injury that I tend to see.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Um, what do you wish the recreational runner, particularly, um would would would, from a self-assessment perspective, what do you wish they would do before they turn to a therapist for support?
SPEAKER_00:That's a really good question. I think I think chat GPT is a terrible option for a recreational runner. What about Google? I mean, that's Ed Google. Uh Google's a bit actually Google's just basically AOI now, anyway. Um I would first tell them to stay off social media or as much social media as they can. Don't just do those three or four strength training drills that you see on TikTok. Um, I think that's the first thing. Uh look, I think the biggest advice for a recreational runner is I suppose it's really hard to actually answer that from the perspective of because most recreational runners they'll literally get pain and then they'll rest. And then rest means no loading, and then the structure doesn't get any load, and then they rest for a while and then they go back and then they've got pain again because they've not actually put themselves through, you know, any actual strength conditioning. Um but then you've got some other recreational runners that'll go out and you know just continue to load and load and load and load until they break down, um which I think comes back to kind of what I said right at the start of the podcast, just health literacy about principles around pain and loading from a relatively early age. I think having a sporting background helps in acknowledging what is pain and what is muscle soreness. Um but I think before you kind of co kind of see a therapist, I suppose, is just reflect on, for example, if you're doing a 5k run and you get 2K's in and then it starts to get sore, but the first 2K's were really good. It'd be really awesome if all runners kind of had the knowledge to be like, okay, that's my sweet spot. Awesome. I'm gonna stick to that sweet spot for a little while. I'm gonna slowly build up past that sweet spot until I can get back to my 5k distance. But that seems like a really simple principle for a practitioner to kind of put in their brain, but for your kind of lay recreational person, they hear that and go, Oh, I'm gonna lose all fitness, I'm not going anywhere, I'm not progressing, whatever it might be. Um so I suppose that's the biggest thing is just if they could identify that first step, it would make our job a lot easier. Because one, it would take a lot of the time we spend in um education out of things, two, where we can spend a lot more time on the nitty-gritty SNC stuff and mechanics, yeah. Good.
SPEAKER_03:I like that. Um how do you assess? I mean, we talked about how you sort of consider people's mechanics and the two major differences you see. Um, how do you decide what's worth intervening on and changing and then what's not? Um no doubt injury probably plays a factor to that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, like this is an excellent question because all the research kind of tells us that as soon as we change someone's mechanics, it starts to load other structures, and then that structure kind of potentially is getting overloaded and someone could get injured. Um I think the biggest the biggest thing that I do with a lot of my clients and and the greatest outcomes that I've had is giving them the necessary strength drills and then drills to uh practice without changing technique, so don't change anything, just give them the strength drills and then the actual running potential mechanics drills to go and practice. And then once they've been doing them for a little while, what kind of happens is the brain will start to recognize how the body feels moving in that way, and then when they go out and run, the body will start to change or alter slightly the biomechanics or the way that they run to match what they feel when they're doing the drills. And what kind of happens then is they're like, I feel really springy when I do these drills, Dom. And then I go and run and I don't feel it. I'm like, okay, be patient, keep doing the drills, keep doing the drills, and then they do the drills for a little bit longer, and then they're like, oh wow, I can start to actually feel I'm feeling a little bit more springy, I'm feeling uh, you know, a bit more economical, I'm feeling like I'm getting to the end of 10Ks. And usually six months ago that was really hard, but now it's really easy. Yeah, they've got some changes in fitness, of course. But you've got some patients as well that go away for three weeks and this same sort of things happen because they've been, you know, drilling these kind of technical cues into their brain to change it themselves. And that's probably the biggest misconception, I think, that a lot of therapists maybe do is they go and change technique and they go go and run like that, and it's just it overloads the patient's system so much from a pattern that's been so natural for them since so like a really early age. Rather than just giving them things to do within a gym environment, for example, doing you know, even just using these drills as like a warm-up and feeling what that feels like, and then be like, okay, go feel that, then come back, we'll reassess you on a treadmill. I've had a lot a lot of the patients I've been working with the last three or four months in particular, like they'll come in, they'll do their treadmill assessment, we'll give them the strength, we'll give them the drills, they'll come back in, we video it at the first time, then they come back in, we video it again, and I haven't actually changed their mechanics at all, but they come in and run like a complete different human. And they one, they look so epic and they go, Wow, I actually really feel so much better too, without changing a thing within their actual consciously changing, consciously changing, not being like, Okay, you just need to bring your foot under your hip and then start to run like that. No, just give them things where the body will learn to do that itself, then they'll feel that that feels way better than what they're doing before, and then they'll just start to consciously change it themselves or unconsciously change themselves. So I think that's the biggest key, and that's what I've really enjoyed doing in the last little while is patients feeling that and they become so liberated when they're able to change things themselves. Yeah, like I think if you tell someone to go do something without them getting to feel it, they won't trust you. But if they feel a change and then are able to go implement that change themselves and they feel like they're the one that's made the change rather than you, they are so liberated and they go, Oh my god, I'm capable of doing this. Like, imagine what I can do if I keep implementing this for longer. And then that's what turns into a really strong patient practitioner kind of relationship as well, is they they trust your guidance, but they also trust what they felt and the change they felt.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So it's um how long has it taken you to do that? How long has it taken you to develop that patience for your patients? And is that the whole reason they're called patients after all? Like I'm just sort of thinking about that. Um, because like I know, like, and I'm I'm there, yeah. And someone comes in, I'm like, technically you're rubbish. Like you need to bring you need to do all these mechanical things, but I'm gonna go, no, we're just gonna get you to practice this, practice this, practice, take your shoes off in the gym when you do this, and then when you go and run, mate, just just see how you feel. Yeah, and then you and then you say, and do it for three weeks, yeah. And I'll wait. Yeah, knowing all I want to do is tell you, but I'm gonna hold my tongue. Yeah. Because as you said, they need to develop that capacity and that learning and that pattern themselves.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, like the funny thing is like they will see themselves on a treadmill and then we'll do some drills, and then they'll see themselves again in the first session, and then they go away, and some of them try and practice what they looked like, but they realize that that doesn't work. Um and then they come back in and they've still changed and look a lot better because they've still been doing the drills as well. Um, but I know what you mean in terms of kind of holding back and biting your tongue. I've definitely been there. I feel like it's just experience with getting it wrong. Yeah, you know, that's when we learn the most. You learn the most, you get it wrong, and then they come back in and they've got a raging Achilles tenant off the end, you're like, oh shit, I shouldn't have changed that so early. Yeah, or I shouldn't have changed that at all at that point. Um I found that it's just you get enough good results from doing that over time, and you go just trust the process. You don't need to you know rush in and change someone's complete running style straight away, let them figure it out themselves. And it comes from just time, just just see as many patients as you can and try doing what I kind of just explained with as many patients as you can.
SPEAKER_03:Do you have a rule of thumb in terms of how much prescription you're gonna give when it comes to strength or stretching or activation or positioning? Like, do you sort of go, I you need 10, I'm gonna give you the first three.
SPEAKER_00:As in the amount of exercises for someone. Yeah, I keep it really simple, first off. I'd probably give someone three or four things to do from the first session. That could be two strength drills, slash strength, maybe a mobility drill, um, to help with just ranges of motion to get them themselves into a better position for their running. And then just two yeah, two drills, like plometric type drills that are specific to running and running mechanics. It should only take them 10 to 15 minutes. Uh, some people literally come in, I give them two drills to do before their run, and then I'll give them two or three things to do after their run or on a rest day that should only take 10 or 15 minutes, and that's it. If they're doing it every day, over time, that's enough. Because that's the other thing that we can often get wrong is we overload patients with way too much. And I've definitely been someone that's done that. So I've given them so much and then they only end up doing one or two things anyway. When realistically, you could have just given them the two or three most important things rather than giving them 10 things and then they do the two or three things that weren't the most important. So yeah, I think that's another thing that that's one of my rule of thumb now is if it's taking longer than 15 minutes for someone, you also yeah, yeah, step back or the other the other thing is you just learn about your patient. If your patient is someone that's like, I'll spend 45 to 60 minutes on this every day, and you just know they're gonna do it, sure, give them a little bit extra. Absolutely, because I have. And if you've got a patient that you know that they've got three kids, um, they work as a chippy, they're up early, they've got this much time, but they also want to go for a surf and all that sort of thing that's really important for their mental health. Give them just give them the two or three little you know, gold nuggets and then let them go practice.
SPEAKER_03:Um okay, if we consider let's say head positioning, thoracic, ribs, scapula, um, and all the exercise and work that can go with that. Yeah, let's consider the abdominals to a degree respiratory strategies, but pelvic stability, deep abdominals, let's consider the hip mechanics, hip flexors, hip extensors, proximal hamstring, etc. And then let's consider sort of lower limb from the knee through to the foot. If you were to order, I'm gonna do this to you. Yeah, I like it. I don't know, you're gonna say it depends, so you're not allowed to say that. But if you were to pick, like, okay, what's one area the recreational runner should listen, should should focus on first right now? That often comes across either inefficiency and they're not running as fast as they want to, or they they constantly managing niggles. What area is probably most common from a root of evil? And and think about that first, address that, and then go where to next? The hip. Hips.
SPEAKER_00:I would start at the hip. Um, one, the hips right basically in the smack bang in the middle, um, there in the core or the trunk. Um, I would start on the hip, purely from the perspective of just seeing that that generally, for what I've seen with the recreational runner, seems to be the root cause of evil. Um and in terms of what I've seen the most of, that's generally people sit all day at work. That's the first thing. They people sit all day at work, which leads to significant anterior pelvic tilt and extremely tight hip flexor kind of compartment, which then inhibits what we see kind of posteriorly through glute max, glute me, then starts to struggle. If we can start there and educate people about pelvic positioning and stacking of the pelvis underneath the trunk as like a basis for efficient mechanics and great economy, and start from there and then whatever way we go out, we go out. I think we if we start there and then integrate some abdominal stuff in around that, because I'll always link them together when I'm working with someone around pelvic mechanics. That's where I would start always. Hips and abs. Hips and abs. Absolutely. And and I think that honestly, I think that goes beyond running. I think that goes across every sport that I've worked in. Every sport, every movement, every person. Oh god. The amount of inboxes, the amount that I've learnt about the trunk pelvis connection this year has been incredible. Scares, snowball, same. Yeah, yeah, it all comes from that base, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, totally. Is that mainly because of its capacity to mitigate and then generate forces, um, both in a linear manner and um in a rotational aspect as well?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. Um, is that from a boxing perspective you're talking about? Yeah, yeah. Um I suppose from a boxing perspective, I've been really lucky to work with coaches that have emphasised that too, and you kind of see the difference between someone that generates force from kind of upper thoracic shoulder versus someone that generates force using pelvis trunk rotation and then using actual ground the the legs as the power component of the movement and then the amount of torque that produces, and it's the same with skiing. Like skiing's a really interesting sport in the sense that there are so many different variables with environment that come into play too. But if you are unable to get your hips in a good position from uh you know an anterior to posterior ski position, but also a medial lateral position, you kind of either lose the skis out wide and people do the splits, or you find that one ski will slip, the other ski will slip behind. Like there's so many things that can happen if you don't have that good stable base. So yeah, I think we start there with every sport and then build from that. And what I've found too is people can get great changes within minutes to hours to days getting into that straight away. Yeah, but just knowing that it's where to start is the key, I feel like, for these guys. Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_03:Um the biggest misconceptions about running technique that a lot of people come in and go, Oh man, I need to work on this. You know, they see it on as you said, as they see it on online, they Google it, they go on TikTok or whatever.
SPEAKER_00:So many of these. Um top three. Top three. Oh, the the main one I see is that heel striking's evil. Everyone thinks heel striking's super evil. It's only really evil if it's paired with an overstride, realistically, because what's happening is someone's landing out so far in France, and then you know their base of support is obviously here, and yeah, they they kind of lose um one forward momentum, but then they just yeah, we start to see overload of structures and things. So that's that's the first one. The other really big one that I've been seeing recently is everyone thinks like pronation over pronation is super evil as well. If you ever watch a marathon runner actually run in the top guys, if you see ever seen videos like Kipchogi, you'll see how much the they pronate in and the ankle kind of snaps inwards when they land. Yeah, and that's just like an energy storage mechanism. That's the purpose of the planar fascia and the foot. If it was stiff, you'd basically just oh, the amount of load that would go through the foot and ankle is incredible. Um, and you'd have issues with stress reactions and things, but you just wouldn't have that explosive pop if if the foot and the Achilles aren't working together nicely in that way, you just don't have that you know efficient stretch shortening cycle. And so that's definitely the other one that I see. I tell people just to that it's okay. Look, the elite guys are doing it, it's all good. I just usually get them to watch a video and be like, here, this is the top marathon runner in the world. That's how he runs. Yeah, don't be worried about your foot snapping in too much, yeah. Unless there's an injury there, then we focus on that and and deal with it. Number three. Um I think it's probably related to strength training, it's gonna make me bulky and slow. I think that's the other big thing that I've seen recently is especially with the female runners, is they'll come into clinic and they'll be very lean, they'll be very kind of decent, bouncy runners, but they lack muscular bulk bulk to hold themselves in good positions. And when I ask them, have you done strength training before? They go, Yeah. And I go, Are you doing it anymore? And they go, No. And I go, why? And they go, Well, it kind of made me bulky and I didn't like the way it looked. And then I went and ran and I felt a bit slower. And there's definitely that that component that extra weight on the system definitely can lead to decreases in speed, and we see that because all the marathon guys are extremely thin. But strength doesn't necessarily mean bulky and like hypertrophy and actual muscle bulk and size.
SPEAKER_03:You know, there is a correlation, but it doesn't necessarily mean that and then that anecdotal definition of strength for an individual. If you're lifting weights twice a week, it's very unlikely you're gonna put on much mass.
SPEAKER_00:No, and I think that that kind of athlete, they're the ones that it's definitely it's always, it seems to me, a mental component to that where there's a you know, a dietary component and then a mental component to looking that way. And there's so many factors. That's when you have a big multidisciplinary approach with those patients that come in. But I would say probably they're the the top three that I've seen as of late is but like there are so many. I see some bizarre ones that come in. I'm just like, what are you on about? Like you look fine, don't worry about it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I find often it's a sensory input thing that gives them this misconception that I'm getting bigger and I'm feeling bulkier. There's a degree of neural fatigue and yes, an improved neural awareness, which then makes them think, oh my gosh, my arm, my legs, my everything feels bigger. And it's like, no, you just feel it more. Yeah, that's doesn't mean it's bigger. And if you're associating size with sensory input, we might need to deal with that association because that's just you know a feeling. That's it. But um, yeah, you know, and then and then the neural fatigue element where they might go and run after introducing some strength training, and they don't feel as good because there's that neuromuscular system and it's load and it's a bit of fatigue, and you're deliberately overloading the system. Um, you know, but eventually it all sort of adds up and stacks up. That's it. Let's jump back to that pronating foot for a second. I think it's um what are you if you stay on that really high arch, that really stiff, really tight tip post tight foot that presents with some plantar fascia issues, um, what are you doing for them? And or what are you suggesting they do to start to actually reinstall that that mobility that's so essential for let's land, degree of pronation, absorb, and then recoil out of that, get that pop. Because if they're just super stiff, they're obviously getting like all that bony stress, as you say.
SPEAKER_00:I I try and uh they these patients in particular, ones that wear shoes way too often. That's typically the pattern that I see. Um, shoes that are extremely narrow through the forefoot is typically what I'll see, really hard, stiff soles and that sort of thing. So that sort of patient, I'll get them barefoot as much as possible. I'll tell them one to be barefoot as much as possible to kind of just get a feel for the floor again. But then we'll also do a lot. I I've spent a lot of time doing foot mobility drills, exercises for foot strength to kind of create muscular strength so that the tissues of the fascia don't have to do the work that the muscles have to do within the foot. Um, I really like a company called Foot Collective. They've got some really cool devices where they've got like semicircular ovals where you do kind of foot drills, you can do gripping drills with like small balls where you're lifting the it up with your toes, and um, you're doing really cool stuff like that to develop strength and mobility back through the foot. And similarly to the I suppose the pelvis hip core that we were speaking about. I think with a lot of these guys that if we can develop mobility and strength back through the foot, it has upstream effects throughout the whole body as well. So that can often be a real you know cause of evil throughout their body is this really stiff fascia where they're basically they're just jarring forces through their foot, shin, therefore leg. So if we can develop a little bit of that mobility and strength through the foot, and the drills themselves are actually like make your brain work really hard, they're really fun. Um, so that's probably the biggest advice I'd give to those guys is barefoot, spend some time with some cool tools that are available online now for strength's becoming really big, yeah, and more companies are coming out with really cool things. So, yeah, rip into that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, definitely bring it to life. How often do you suggest people do a degree of their training, particularly maybe their strength stuff without shoes on?
SPEAKER_00:Um, every single time, yeah, honestly. Um which not their running. No, not their running. Um, well, it really depends. Some people I do get to run barefoot, depending on what I'm trying to get out of that patient. But all of it if they can, yeah, purely because of the amount of neural endings and free nerve endings you've got in your feet that will help one coordination balance, but also just connection, like the big toe connection to the whole body. If you're able to generate force through the big toe when you're lifting and and doing your single leg exercises, and then kind of feeling what that does to the whole you know, trunk and things like that, like 50% of toe-off power. There was a study done ages ago that kind of demonstrated that like big toe power can generate up to 50% of toe-off overall power as well. Like that muscle, the flexor halicus longus and brevis are two solid strong muscles. And if you have a lack of mobility and strength within that, it can really limit your toe-off spring and stiffness. So getting people to actually utilize that muscle within their strength training as well, I find really important. So, yeah, get your shoes off. A lot of the issue with a lot of gyms these days is they don't let you take your shoes off because it's a hygiene thing. Um, I usually just tell people to go into the functional zone and be kind of sneaky about it and just say, Oh, my physio said I had to do this and see what they say. But yeah, blam blame the physical, or just or just yeah, or just find a gym that allows you to do it. Like exactly go train somewhere where they understand how important it is for your body to do that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:If it's a gym that's like honing in on it, just be like, maybe it's not the place for me for my performance.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, mate. It's um it's really funny. And what I love as a practitioner is you get to see what the tendons are doing, um, particularly, you know, the the sort of topside tendons and therefore how someone's distributing weight in a squat, in a lunge, in a single leg drill. And 90% of the time when people that say, Oh, I have bad balance, I'm like, Oh, congratulations. Um, you get them to stand on one foot and then the tendons of their toes pull up. And I'm like, you know that means your weight's on your heel and your heel's a ball. Yeah. Have you ever tried balancing on a ball? Yeah, probably not very good. I'm like, well, maybe you don't have bad balance, maybe you just have a bad weight distribution strategy. Find the forefoot, there brings in their toe, and then they typically have that high arch as well. And it's it's quite funny the the correlation. It's yeah, it's pretty um it's and it is some of that very simple stuff fundamentally, is going back to that. Um what else from a fundamental perspective? How how much work do you do on, say, someone's breathing or respiratory strategies when they're running? And do you think that has a big effect on not necessarily like economy and efficiency, but I guess just general comfort and ability to run that that non runner trying to be a runner that finds it really hard?
SPEAKER_00:It it's something I've been doing a A lot more just of recent. Um, it's not something I've done so much of in the past, but more so just from the perspective I've been spending personally a lot more time at really high heart rates, and that's purely been an experimental process through triathlon in actually seeing what it's like running off the bike where your heart rate's already really high, therefore respiratory rate has to increase. So just noticing that made me realize the the depths and widths that I can get my kind of torso to through breathing and actually working on breathing. I've spent a lot of time in the past doing breath work, and I actually will do breath work with some patients who struggle with the respiratory component, um, whether that's in kind of prone lying with like a you know, whatever it might be, um, kind of seated breath work type exercises in and out through the mouth, because that's obviously where we're spending a lot more time when we do run at decent speeds and things like that. Um but yeah, definitely experimenting with a lot more of that now and noticing kind of how that is influencing someone's thoracic and kind of head-on-shoulder posture has been really interesting too. I wouldn't say it's something that I'm extremely knowledgeable about from a perspective of doing it for a long time, but more so just experimenting in terms of how it helps patients. Now, I've been doing it for a long time with surfers, more particularly from the perspective of comfortability with getting smashed under waves and being able to regulate heart rate and breathing rate from getting stuck under the sandbank and then trying to gasp up for air from that perspective, but also from the perspective of being in you know, on your tummy and you know, having thoracic extension and then breathing with the force of the board as well, and trying to breathe up into a little bit more of that upper thoracic with those guys too. Um so yeah, it has a really big impact with them, and now just experimenting with runners. I'm I'm realising that too.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, there's all that sort of connective layering. Let's go to your um testing stuff, particularly around lactic testing.
SPEAKER_01:Cool.
SPEAKER_03:Um, what role do lactate testings and other assessments play? And I guess how you start to understand a runner's performance. Um, so less the injury profile stuff more.
SPEAKER_00:Let's look at efficiency and performance. Yeah, no, this is the stuff I really love. I love this lactate. I love like performance testing and things like that is really where I've been to shifting a lot of my work as of this year. Um, I feel like the easiest way to start with this, we'll start with lactate testing because that's what I've been doing a lot more as of this year. Um, and for those of you that I suppose don't really know what it is, um lactate itself is a byproduct of metabolism. So within the body, for example, when you exercise at a really low intensity, it's called aerobic metabolism. And basically, what the body is able to do, it's able to clear a waste product called pyruvate really easily from the system, and there's not much lactate accumulation as a result. What happens when we exercise at really kind of higher intensities is the mitochondria is not able to tolerate the amount of pyruvate getting built up within the muscular system. So there's an enzyme called LHD that basically will convert that to lactate, and then lactate will accumulate within a muscle, and that's that burning acidity feeling that you feel when you're working really hard and then you can't go anymore. So as your fitness increases, your ability to be able to clear that burning lactate feeling will also increase over time as your body gets better at being able to obviously clear any lactate that's produced as a waste product. So the purpose of lactate testing itself is we're able to identify at what point your body shifts from aerobic metabolism to anaerobic metabolism, and we are also then able to identify at what point does the body kind of is unable to clear lactate faster than it's produced. A really strong elite athlete is able to do that very well and at very high speeds versus a recreational runner might come in and they'll get to 11 Ks an hour, and that's them, they're done because they're not very metabolically efficient at doing it. So why this has been so epic for a lot of clients and runners that I've seen is we're able to now determine at what point lactate or their LT1 kind of what LT1 is kind of like aerobic metabolism and steady state lactate levels at LT2. We're able to identify what those two markers are within their performance. So we then can actually take that data and transfer it to running speeds and tell the person at what speed they cross those thresholds. And what that does for someone is it takes a lot of guesswork out of whether I'm in zone two, I'm in zone three, I'm in zone four, or I'm in zone five. There's all this nonsense that's been coming out about obviously zone one, zone two, you've got to stay in your zone two area, but no one really actually knows what zone two looks like from a heart rate perspective as well, because your heart rate is so variable, it's a terrible measure of being able to determine um you know what what you're actually what your actual output is like because if you have a shit sleep and um you've had alcohol, your heart rate's already up anyway. So there's so many different factors.
SPEAKER_03:Run in run in Southeast Queensland on it in winter versus summer. Yeah, that's exactly right. And your heart rate will be 20-30 beats higher.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so being able to determine without using heart rate data and kind of running by feel data around what at what exact pace does someone kind of shift from aerobic to anaerobic metabolism, we can set that athlete zones, and then that's your true zone one, that's your true zone two. And by doing that, what it's allowed athletes to do is it means that they're not overdoing their zone two slower stuff because a lot of them go, oh my god, I've been spending all my training time in zone three. No wonder I'm exhausted or have had this niggle that's come up. And we kind of find and tweak exactly where they should be spending most of their time within their training, not only from an injury perspective, but also from a performance perspective, kind of following like a polarized intensity distribution kind of model where you know, depending on the type part of the season that that athlete's in, spending different periods of time in certain intensities to try and you know improve that part of you know their aerobic capacity. So it's been a real game changer, and I've been super excited to bring it to people. And it's becoming more popular now, which is really cool. Not a lot of people do it still. Um why not? Is it because it's hard? Um, it's one, it's extreme it can be difficult to analyze from a therapist's perspective without the adequate tools andor knowledge. Um that's probably the first thing. The equipment is expensive and the lactate strips are expensive to continually buy. So basically the machine you get is like a lactate monitor, but each time you want to buy 25 test strips and you go through about 10 in a test or more, I think it's like a it's a$50 or$60 charge just for the 25 strips. So you do churn through monetary-wise, like the actual strips themselves. There is a little bit of variability in obviously the person doing the test, so the same practitioner needs to be doing the test each time. There's obviously reliability problems, like you know, is it getting contaminated by sweat that can skew results? So you just there's a few things that you've got to be really spot on with in terms of actually undertaking the test, but then also analysing the test. Yeah, but once you kind of get the data, what's really cool is you get that data, you go out and train for six months or whatever your block is, then we can come back in and we can retest it, and then your zones might have changed, which means awesome. We can now spend different time in different zones or whatever it might be. And I find that quantifying that's made it really easy for athletes to take a lot of the guesswork out of what is zone two, what is zone five, what is zone, whatever.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so let's stay on that because I literally ran into a guy this morning who trains and sort of do a lot of work with, and he's hating running at this time of year because he's finding I can't stay in zone two because of my heart rate. Yeah. Let's sort of unpack that. And maybe we need to go into some sort of deep exercise physiology with someone, but you you might be able to stick with us for this. What's more dependable? Um, the lactate zone determined rather than heart rate, because as we said, there's so many other factors. Would our lactate results change based on the temperature we're running in?
SPEAKER_00:I would say yes. Um, but the variability of that change would not be as high as a heart rate change. Okay. So he could be running in a heart rate zone three.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but he could be he's still in his zone two. And so let's stay on zone two. Zone two training is most beneficial for your aerobic system. That everyone says, Yeah, let's unpack the aerobic system. Is it your heart and your lungs? Or are we talking down to the cellular mitochondrial level? Because that's where we want the adaptation from a zone two perspective, right?
SPEAKER_00:Cellular mitochondrial level. Um like zone two itself, it's obviously gonna it'll have effects on all systems in that sense. Um, but from a metabolic perspective, being able to change metabolic qualities through aerobic metabolism is the most trainable way to improve aerobic fitness. For example, VO2 max testing, that's also a very difficult test to undertake, but you have a you have a ceiling of VO2, you'll notice that the the ability to reach a higher VO2 once you're an elite athlete or if you've been training for 18 months is extremely difficult to actually get you know decent solid adaptations. You kind of hit a ceiling versus lactate metabolic changes and adaptations continuously continue to change. Like your ability to continually run at faster paces and do that with lactate levels that it's obviously clearing a lot quicker improves no matter you know as your fitness increases as well. So like its scope of being able to monitor or measure someone's you know increases in fitness are a lot easier than you know a VO2 test, for example, which is really cool. So yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So we adapt at a cellular level rather than a capacity of oxygen and CO2 sort of efficiency measurements.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, because VO2 obviously is testing kind of that side of the physiology versus your the metabolic trainable qualities are a lot easier to you know continually adapt to from a muscular mitochondrial cellular level, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Ultimately influencing your VO2 gases exchange qualities anyway, but which will influence that, yeah. Yeah. You know, not necessarily chicken or the egg, it's like it's definitely the egg, the mitochondria, go there. That's it. Um and spending more time in that zone two is is is sort of the the real secret to it.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:What do people get wrong about training in zone two? Do they spend too little time there?
SPEAKER_00:Um I would say people do probably spend a little bit too much, a little too much time there, but I think we also probably tie ourselves up with zone two training a little bit too much. Um for example, um, if you're an elite athlete, your zone two it could be honestly four minute 20 pace or four minute fifteen pace. So your recovery, like your they they won't actually spend a lot of time there. A recreational runner will spend a lot more time in zone two because they haven't developed the qualities to obviously stay in a zone one because their zone one's walking versus an elite runner, their zone one will be you know, for example, could be my five-minute 30 pace. So I think that's probably the biggest misconception is like we probably prioritize like everyone's like gotta be zone two, gotta be zone two, and I see it everywhere. When realistically someone's zone one and someone's zone two really depends on the athlete that you've got at hand, which is uh probably the next point is just that's when the subjective the the link between the objective data of what is your zone one and zone two on a lactate test, and then what does you know, rate of perceived asertion and your subjective feeling of how does that run feel kind of merge together where you get a bit of science and a bit of art involved where you as the athlete know that that's a really easy pace, and maybe that's your you know your zone one lactate. Awesome. Stay there. And I'll often tell people your ability to speak in a full sentence without having to breathe within that sentence can kind of determine whether you're running too easy or too hard. So just using little cues like that can often be better rather than getting really strung up on the zone two thing and the heart rate thing all the time. The lactate data gives us really good measures of what that exactly is. But I think then when we link it with, you know, subjective stuff within our own bodies that we feel. Feel element, yeah. That's when the magic really happens because you can tell an athlete that's not running by feel in the sense of that they're like, like they're breathing heavy, it looks tough, mechanically they're breaking down, and then you go, and then they come in and they're like on their strabo, you they they write zone too longy, and you go, all right, bro. Like I saw you, I saw you run, and that wasn't a zone too long. Um I see that a lot, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um I suppose to sort of stay on that and and to kind of wrap this up from a field perspective, you know, we touched on it earlier. Um, how often do you wish upon an athlete recreational runner just to wind down, don't overanalyse it, just go out and do what feels good from an intensity, from a you know, return to run protocol from a reloading of the system. Yeah. How often do you wish that upon people?
SPEAKER_00:Um if if I I I coach runners and I spend a lot of time kind of seeing this from a comments perspective of what I see when someone posts in that they've done a session and they're hyper-analyzing their session. I'll tell that athlete to take their watch off and go run without their watch, and they feel like they're losing like a child. They think it's like the scariest thing in the world, and they freak out and they literally go, Are you serious? And I go, take your watch off for a week and go run by feel. If you can speak in full sentences, you're running at the right intensity. If not, you're running too hard. And because they can't see their paces, then they're not getting in their head about you know things like, Oh, it's got to be that pace for my Strava, or it's got to be this, or it's got to be that. Um so I do it a lot more now than I used to. Like the watch off thing is like a game changer for a lot of athletes, is just go run by feel. And then this is the other thing that like that if it's not on Strava, it didn't happen, seemingly, which is so bizarre. You look as soon as an athlete gets more elite, they don't give a shit about their Strava. It's just the recreational guys that care about their Strava.
SPEAKER_03:So funny, it's yeah, and and look, it's it's it's it's it's uh it might be a motive to get someone going sure and and and make you adhere, sure, but ultimately it's um we we've still removed a lot of the fun and the play and just the recreational elements, and that's all this stuff is ultimately, yeah. And that's what it should be. Like, yeah, longevity and all these other factors we're trying to validate our adherence to doing weird, silly, hard things because life has gotten so comfortable. But at the end of the day, just go do them, don't overanalyse it, just enjoy it for what it is. You know you're gonna feel great if you go for an hour. Yep, buy a Casio, run with that thing.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's the biggest thing. The the most enjoyable runs I've ever done, I didn't wear a watch when I went trail running. This is um in my Thailand block last year before I went overseas and did that race. I did a couple of my longies without a watch, and I didn't know how like what my heart rate was, I didn't know what my pace was, I just went and ran by feel, and it wasn't up on my Strava. So, what actually looked like, I did way less volume than I actually did in training, but I didn't really care about that so much. I kind of was just like I wanted to I knew that this was a zone two day, and in my zone two or my recovery, like recovery-ish long day. It was like a I think I did a five-hour run out there one day without a watch. Wow. Um could have been three hours in there, yeah. Well, I had me I had my phone in my my pack, but um, and I went out there and I just went, okay, go run by feel, don't get hung up on paces because I had a tendency in my training, especially for this race, to compare my a lot of my times to kind of what I needed to do within the race and you know what that would comfortably look like and feel, and you know, these runs were some of my best runs from an enjoyment perspective of just enjoying being out in nature and the grounding aspect of trail running, which is why it's so amazing, in my opinion. Um and just yeah, really just feeling and enjoying running for what it really is again, was the the key thing. So if you feel like you're overanalysing your running and you're you're all you're doing is getting hung up on stats, that's my biggest piece of advice. Take the watch off, completely disconnect, even go for a really light trail run and get out in nature and just love running for what it is again. Uh, we're really blessed, I suppose. Here in Brisbane, you're really blessed with some cool trails out at inaugural and stuff as well. And Goldie, we have the same. So just get out there and just feel it. And you know, you can walk the inclines. I walk the inclines, that's what a lot of us do when we're just doing our chill stuff. So why not?
SPEAKER_03:Just enjoy it for what it is. Well, that's a strong take-home message, mate. Sometimes, you know, we can analyze and we can speak about mechanics for uh over an hour and data and everything else. But at the end of the day, it's just uh something that's probably genetically in uh uh ingrained in all of us who've got the ability to run on two legs and not many other species get to do that. That's it. So, you know, just enjoy it for what it is. Absolutely. Love it. Well, mate, we're gonna have to get you back in and do all the stories on your own running journey and your trail runs and everything. I think there's a lot there, but uh yeah, for the sake of the listener and my next client, I'm gonna have to wrap this one up. But been a pleasure, mate. Thank you very much for your time.
SPEAKER_00:No worries, thank you very much. Cheers, cheers.
SPEAKER_03:Thanks for tuning in to the Science of Fitness podcast. Be sure to check us out across all forms of social media and subscribe to this channel if you want to stay up to date to the latest episodes and any other anecdotes with which we might share across these video platforms. If you ever find yourself locally in Brisbane, be sure to drop into one of our facilities or down on the Gold Coast in Burley. You can also check us out at scienceoffitness.com.au and see all things relating to what we offer in programming and performance, whether it's online or in person.