How Sports Nutrition Actually Works With Hanah Mills

The gap between training hard and feeling great is often one thing: enough fuel. We’re joined by sports dietitian Hanah Mills for a candid, practical tour of performance nutrition that ditches extremes and focuses on what actually moves the needle—energy availability, smart carb timing, and habits you can live with. We start by challenging hustle culture and the pressure to chase body fat at all costs. If you’re not paid to perform, you’re paying to participate—so recovery, consistency, and mental health come first. Hannah shares how she screens for a compromised relationship with food, why maintenance calories can be medicine, and how to choose off‑season windows for moderate, percentage‑based deficits that protect muscle and performance.

From there, we get tactical. Learn how resting metabolic rate anchors daily energy needs, why protein and essential fats set your floor, and how carbs unlock better sessions, less DOMS, and steady motivation. We unpack low energy availability (LEA), the hormone-bone connection, and the very real risk of stress fractures in underfueled runners. Rehab gets a reality check too: cuts slow tissue repair, while fueling up speeds the path back to sport. On electrolytes, we separate signal from noise—most sweat loss is sodium and chloride, cramp is usually neuromuscular fatigue, and hydration is best judged by urine colour, not giant water bottles.

You’ll leave with simple upgrades that stick: sultanas in the car door for pre‑session carbs, high‑protein versions of everyday staples, extra virgin olive oil as your go‑to fat, and a practical way to spread carbs across the day. Whether you’re chasing a 5K PB or building longevity, this is nutrition that respects real life and delivers results. If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a training mate, and leave a quick review to help more listeners find evidence‑based, no‑nonsense guidance.

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Hannah Mills, Sports Dietitian
• 1:05 The Person Behind The Practitioner
• 3:11 Letting Go Of Hustle Culture
• 7:20 Why Dietetics And A Human-Centred Approach
• 11:20 Body Composition: When It Matters
• 17:40 Relationship With Food Before Deficits
• 22:10 Running, Deficits, And Smart Timing
• 25:45 Energy Systems 101: RMR And Daily Burn
• 29:00 Fueling Rehab And Avoiding Setbacks
• 33:35 Low Energy Availability And Bone Health
• 38:00 Signs You’re Underfueled
• 41:05 Performance Nutrition vs General Nutrition
• 44:30 Electrolytes, Cramping, And Hydration
• 50:15 Practical Fueling: Carbs, Sultanas, And Timing
• 54:20 Fats, Oils, And Minimums That Matter
• 58:00 Simple Habits, Real Food, Next Steps

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:00

Welcome to the Science of Fitness Podcast, where we aim to inspire you to live a more healthy and fulfilling life as we share evidence and anecdotes on all things relating to health, performance, business, and wellness. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to the Science of Fitness Podcast. I am here with the lovely Hannah Mills. Welcome, Hannah.

SPEAKER_00: 0:18

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03: 0:20

Absolute pleasure. So qualified sports dietitian. What's the difference between a sports dietitian and a normal dietitian?

SPEAKER_00: 0:28

So we undergo, it's the course has changed, but essentially usually it's a you have to have graduated from dietetics for a year, and then you undergo a course. It could be a couple of months or it could be the more intensive course of a couple of weeks. But essentially that's where we are learning a lot about like sports nutrition in so many different areas: sweat rate, body composition, disordered eating, reds, like it's more specific to sports and athletes compared to like the general pop, which might be more chronic disease related or you know, different conditions, different settings, diabetes, whatnot.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03

There you go. Things you learn.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:05

Um before we get carried away with the dietetics things, um, new little segment that I've introduced and uh launched in the most previous episode with Dom, um, is the person behind the practitioner. Uh so before we talk body competition and sports, dietetics and running and everything else, um you. Let's talk about you. First and foremost, if you could make one change in the world with your current understanding of it, what would that change be?

SPEAKER_00: 1:37

I would change like yeah, food scarcity, starvation, poverty. Like I would I from what I've heard, uh, there's conspiracies around this stuff, right? But I've heard that they did establish a way where they could overcome starvation for people, and uh I don't know, one of the richest people in the world were investing into it, and they they pulled the plug on that or they pulled the pin on that. Um, but if there was one thing that would change, it'd be that I would distribute food um and ideally money, but more equally across the world, so that you know you wouldn't have populations that would suffer and then others that would thrive.

SPEAKER_03: 2:15

It's a very funny state uh that we are living in as a species in that context, in the sense of yeah, we've got this epidemic of obesity.

SPEAKER_02: 2:25

Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_03: 2:27

We can safely say it's caused by an abundance of food. Maybe poor quality food, particularly and people throwing out food. Yeah, then yeah, the other end of the spectrum is you know, people are starving and nutritionally completely compromised.

SPEAKER_00: 2:39

Literally, literally. And I just I just don't understand that. Every time you throw out food, you think about it. Well, I think about it, and and it's like, no, that needs to be distributed more evenly. So that was one thing I could change it to be that.

SPEAKER_03: 2:52

Interesting. Um next, if you pick the number one lesson you've learned in the last 12 months, be it through positive or negative experience, what would the lesson be?

SPEAKER_00: 3:11

I want to say, like, going along the lines of you know, where people have come out saying it's not that deep, but I think uh it's more so it's more than that. Um and it's it's essentially letting go of hustle culture. I think we've gotten to a point as a generation or as a society rather, where everyone is, you know, hustling and trying to achieve more and more and more. And I think it's it's actually now at the point where it's having the opposite effect on people, where it's actually compromising mental health, it's causing more disconnect with community, it's um, you know, causing people to go towards more addictive outlets to um, you know, essentially get an escape. Um, I think I think we actually just need a little bit more balance. So I think the thing that I've learned recently um is is almost like not striving to achieve all the time, um, which sounds quite strange, especially working with sporting populations, but I think uh I've just seen the the negative effect of it so often, you know, with a a high risk, like uh a high prevalence of it, depression and anxiety.

SPEAKER_03: 4:25

So I think And is that an observation you made through working in sport?

SPEAKER_00: 4:29

And yeah, yeah. Working in sport, being on social media, um, you know, uh, and just having these kinds of conversations where it's like there's just so much pressure. And even for myself, even for me as someone who was an athlete and is now, you know, trying to go, okay, but for what? And so I think there's a level of like motivation and being around positive people and things like that, but also I think there's a level of like let's let's let's also do it to an extent where you're happy and you're enjoying your life. So I think that's been my lesson of yeah, not needing to achieve all the time and or not doing it at your own detriment rather.

SPEAKER_03: 5:08

That's powerful. Not doing it to your own detriment. It's it's funny because you know as as you do when you're running a small business, you have challenges. We've had probably our most challenging 18 months that I can ever imagine. Yet when I reflect on previous periods, they were more challenging at that time. So, you know, it's always gonna be there. But I think the biggest thing for me is, and I made this joke, and I make it often with people, is it's just you just got to move like water. Just it's gonna come and just go with it. And if you know, the hustle culture, if you're really forcing yourself and compromising yourself, is probably what I'd say, um, to work hard and achieve for what reason and actually asking that question and being willing to answer it, um, you're gonna get a decent understanding. But at the same time, for me, I'm probably working more than I ever have, but I don't feel like I'm doing it with a degree of resistance or whatever else. I just genuinely, that's what I want to be doing right now. It's sort of the place I'm in and no detriment. I'm feeling healthier and fitter and exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 6:10

But you're following your heart, you're following what feels good, you're not doing it from an external pressure. You know what I mean? You're actually going, oh, this feels good. I'm just gonna continue doing this until it stops feeling good, right? And I think that's really powerful. Where, like you were saying, there can be different periods of life where you feel more pressure, but you look back on it and you're like, I wasn't doing anywhere near as much. But it's your perspective your perception of the time of maybe at that time you were seeking more validation, more external validation. Maybe you were, you know, uh uh feeling pressure from other people to do something that you don't necessarily want to do, you know, but when you can continue to kind of uh fuel fuel your life almost intrinsically, you know, from what you want to do, I think you get you just enjoy things more and you uh have more balance and thus I believe better mental health outcomes.

SPEAKER_03: 7:03

And probably ultimately, as a professional at least, better output more, but better, high quality. Better particularly if you're working in the world in which care is involved.

SPEAKER_00: 7:15

And less burnout. How common is burnout these days? That's funny. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 7:20

So on that then, have you always loved what you do?

SPEAKER_00: 7:24

Yeah.

unknown: 7:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:25

Like honestly.

SPEAKER_03: 7:26

Why?

SPEAKER_00: 7:27

Oh, for so many reasons. I yeah, I could not imagine doing something else. Um why have I always loved it? I I grew up in a uh, you know, health conscious household. My mom's a diabetes educator and now nurse practitioner, and we, you know, talked a lot about that, and she gave a lot of care to her clients, and I got to see the reward and benefit of that. And I think now I've been able to adopt it into my own practice where I'm not, I I try not to just kind of be a questions and answer kind of dietitian. Um, I definitely excuse me, love to step into that more holistic approach where it's like, how is the person? Yeah, okay, let's adopt nutrition and education to where that person is at. Okay, they've got little food literacy, or okay, they've got, you know, little money or time, or you know, um, maybe they do have an addiction of sorts and like they're trying to work through that, whatever, like meeting the person with where they're at. And as long as they are, you know, open and honest, like I think you can get so much um benefit from that. So I I love the I love, you know, seeing people's just quality of life improve. I love the diversity of my job, you know, being able to see clients and I and I get such a but in private practice, you build such a beautiful connection. Like I've been working with some of my clients for four or five years. Um, you know, social media, you get to educate so many people and reach such a wide range of people, and you can steer it towards any area, like the more you learn about it, you can edu, like you can really just make a difference. Um, so I think I love the connection and I love genuinely like feeling like I'm genuinely making a difference to someone's life as opposed to just their food.

SPEAKER_03: 9:20

Totally. Let's one back. So when and how did becoming a dietitian land on your radar? Was it always something, you know, through high school and sport and being active, or did you kind of go, I think I like this, I'm gonna look at this, and then gradually evolve to kind of where you are now.

SPEAKER_00: 9:37

Yeah, a bit of both. So yeah, growing up, I oh man, where do I start? I was a runner, roller, and dancer. I did a lot of sport, um, sometimes up to three hours of training a day, you know, as a teenager, which was a lot. Um, and I yeah, was a high-level athlete, like I would um, you know, go to states and nationals and whatnot. I unfortunately um suffered from hypothyroidic amenorrhea where you don't have your period. So because of some disordered eating tendencies I adopted, I was significantly underfueling. And God, I look back at that version of me and like, you could have done so much better if you just ate. Um, anyways, so yeah, like because of that underfueling, I um yeah, lost my period for most of high school um and you know, uh suffered with a lot of injuries or like whatnot, um, and my own issues with that. So I think my my curiosity about improving myself as an athlete, um, and then I had some really like influential, you know, dietitians and um healthcare practitioners around me um that like yeah, made me, inspired me to kind of want to get into that field. Um and then yeah, it was kind of I was weighing up between psychology, physio, and dietetics. Um, but I'm a very objective, number-based person. So that's actually what tipped me over the edge. And then also the the influences of you know, social media at the time. I think I was yeah, led by some people who probably had some more disordered eating at the time on online. Um, so yeah, it was all the those things that I was like, I'm so curious about this. Um, and then because it is so like dietetics is to me a bit more objective and numbers-based as opposed to like physio or psychology, that's kind of just what led me down there.

SPEAKER_03: 11:27

Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, very interesting. And how have you found because as you just mentioned, there's such a human element to your job now, removing the numbers and not not being objective, but being really subjective and meeting the person where they're at. How do you find navigating that?

SPEAKER_00: 11:47

Um, I think it just comes with practice, really. Um, I think Yeah, it's it's really about, you know, in that initial consult or when you first meet that person, really understanding them, asking them questions, seeing what makes them tick, seeing, you know, their challenges. And then you can kind of go from there, okay. This person is very objective, they're, you know, um sometimes more of that type A, you know, mindset where they're tell me what to do and I'll do it. And you're like, cool. You're gonna go like well with numbers, I'm gonna tell you exactly what you need, and like it's gonna be a very straightforward outcome. Um, whereas the other side, when like maybe someone presents and they're, you know, feeling a bit overwhelmed, they're maybe struggling with their relationship with food, they've had ups and downs with their weight, or um, they've been told a lot of things and they're just confused, they're a bit more overwhelmed, or life is a lot. And so sometimes like for those people, you can't just go, well, follow this meal plan, you'll be good. It's like they've got too many other barriers there to be able to follow that plan. So I go, okay, cool. Like, let's here's a guide, here's where I'd love for us to work to, but like what's and that they'll tell you, they'll tell you their bigger challenges. Okay, time, beautiful. Let's just get ready-made meals for all of those and let's start talking about your relationship with food. Let's let's start to get the ball rolling in terms of food, but in the consults, you're talking to the person, you're understanding their barriers. Oh, life is so overwhelming. Oh, I hate how I look, you know. Okay, let's talk more about your relationship with your body, you know, or your relationship with food. So you can kind of you just grasp it based off of the information that they give you, really.

SPEAKER_03: 13:31

I love it. All right, well, let's stay on that body composition thing then. Yeah. This is your one of the many wheel wheelhouses. Um, when you talk about, when you have that body composition conversation, particularly for those in sport, um, what particular markers are actually worthwhile worrying about versus ones that I think you find often people go, oh, body fat percent or whatever the number is, and it's like, don't worry, for your sport, this is more appropriate. How often do you sort of find you're talking people out of things and talking people into things when it comes to body composition?

SPEAKER_00: 14:04

So, in terms of like measures or like for seeing that body composition improvement?

SPEAKER_03: 14:09

Yeah, just general, you know, preconceptions about their body composition and its influence on their performance. How often are you having to navigate this with people, say it's a triathlete that comes in and is really obsessed about something that they probably don't need to worry about? How often are you seeing that? And what are you typically seeing?

SPEAKER_00: 14:24

Sure. So, like, how often is someone coming in with the like primary focus that I need to improve my body composition?

SPEAKER_03: 14:30

But it's actually irrelevant to their performance.

SPEAKER_00: 14:32

Yeah, sure. I would say um it depends on where the the what level the athlete is at, because you know, uh to kind of take a step away from um yeah, that relationship with food stuff and focusing more on that sporting realm, body composition does affect your performance. Like we know that, and for high high elite level athletes, that is going to be the difference, sometimes can be the difference between them, you know, winning first place and and and not. Um, so for extreme high-level athletes where they're being paid, that's that's important.

SPEAKER_03: 15:12

It's worth worrying about.

SPEAKER_00: 15:13

It's worth worrying about for sure. But every step down from there, it's like, okay, if you're not being paid, we can we can weigh up priorities in your life.

unknown: 15:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 15:22

And I like to that's a very powerful proxy.

SPEAKER_00: 15:25

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 15:27

Are you paying to do this competition or are you getting paid?

SPEAKER_00: 15:30

Exactly. Exactly. Because then it takes out, like we were talking about, that pressure away of okay, if my relationship with food is struggling and every time I go into a deficit, I then binge eat. Okay, well, it's not a priority. Your relationship with food is your first priority. Um, going into a deficit, you know, I'm speaking to the deficit because usually that's a bit more challenging, you know, for people than a surplus in terms of body composition manipulation. But okay, say for example that they've got a lot of life stress going on and going into a calorie deficit is going to compromise that. I did a presentation a couple of hours ago to um a group of men who, you know, go out into the um go off site and do labor-intensive jobs. It's like, okay, for that short period of time when they go out to do those jobs, it actually might not be a good time to do a body composition, like go into a deficit and change your body composition. So I think it's important to kind of um take it at the individual. But yeah, I think how often do I do it? I okay, I do it quite often. I'm not gonna lie, in terms of kind of like when an athlete when someone comes to me and they say, These are my goals, they if they've got an issue with their relationship with food, if there are concerns there or with their body, I don't want to make their relationship with their food or their body worse because that's gonna have a much greater detriment. My boss said this line to me one time, and I think this is a really good analogy, and as a coach, you would understand this very well. But if someone came to you with a knee injury and they said, Hey Kieran, I want to do a squat PB, you'd be like, Well, you're just gonna make your knee injury way worse, man. And you're probably not gonna achieve your squat PB because you've got a knee injury and you can't squat properly, right? The same as for your relationship with food and body composition.

unknown: 17:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 17:24

If someone came to me and they've got a struggle with their relationship with food and they're like, I want to go into a deficit, we're probably gonna make your relationship with food way worse. Say they binge eat. You're gonna binge eat way more, and you're probably not gonna achieve your goal because you're binge eating all the time. Like you actually need to have control over your food first in order to then be strategic with how you manipulate that for your body composition.

SPEAKER_03: 17:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 17:48

Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03: 17:49

It does, and it's not a simple answer, which I think is an important thing for a lot of people listening to this to understand. You'll jump online and you'll probably watch someone that inspires you to do an endurance activity, for example, that you know, many listeners can probably connect with this. And that person gets paid to do it. And they worry about their body composition.

SPEAKER_00: 18:09

So then we've just got a team of people who are also paid to help them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 18:13

And so they absorb that little anecdote of, oh, their body composition, therefore I need to do about mine, because we do enter the competition to try and get better.

SPEAKER_01: 18:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 18:22

And you know, they'll come to you and present it without having one, a team surrounding them, two, the understanding that actually this is their job.

SPEAKER_01: 18:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 18:29

You know, if you're working as w as a chippy, as a nurse, as a lawyer, as an accountant, and you're just doing these recreational activity things, that small percentage of that body composition contributes to your ability to do the triathlon on the weekend or not is insignificant compared to the large percentage of your fueling strategies in your preparation for the triathlon and the actual performance that you can do that day.

SPEAKER_00: 18:54

For sure. For sure. And that's not to say that we wouldn't do a deficit, but I think there's yeah, there's a time and place, and then there's a level of severity that you do the deficit at. Like maybe we're not doing a thousand calorie deficit after that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03: 19:07

When you're endurance training, particularly.

SPEAKER_00: 19:09

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03: 19:09

Yes, but so in terms of that sort of self-awareness of people realizing that they've actually got some degree of a compromised relationship with their food. Um it's one thing to say it, it's another thing to actually maybe identify it. Um, how does someone go about that? And I know this is probably a big question. Um but you know, yeah, I guess from your experience, how have you helped people understand it and then navigate it?

SPEAKER_00: 19:35

Sure. So I think it's important first to recognise that there are different types of issues with the relationship with food. Even as small as border border meeting, that's still somewhat of an issue with the relationship with food because you're like, okay, you're using that as a vice of sorts to help with this feeling that you're experiencing. Um up to anorexia universal or bulimia, where people are purging or significantly restricting themselves in order to achieve a certain outcome. So it can be anywhere on that scale, and um to give uh to give like a general guide, I think if you're finding that you cannot control your food intake to do what you're wanting to do, or if you're finding that you're thinking about food a lot, or yeah, like probably those things, then there might be a barrier there, there might be a challenge there. So um, but yeah, it's there's definitely there's a lot of screening tools that we can use to kind of like assess that. Um, you know, if someone is getting a lot of head noise around that.

SPEAKER_03: 20:46

Um And it's sort of, I guess, the importance of being able to work with particularly a professional that understands this stuff and helps you navigate it so that you're not in the woods of your own do I, don't I, I don't know what's going on kind of thing. And that's just being able to talk to someone about it is probably the most important step.

SPEAKER_00: 21:06

And I think that's beautiful. And I think it it can be really validating to go. Like, I have a lot of clients who come to me and go, and I'm I've been trying to lose weight for three years and I just can't do it. Like, I don't understand, like, is it my metabolism? And often, yeah, very rarely has it ever been someone's metabolism. It's it's it's that relationship with food, it's that understanding of what's in food, it's that understanding of what your body is signaling, it's understanding of you know, all of those different markers that are going on. Um, and I think it can be validating to be like, oh, okay, it's not me that I I'm not broken. You know, I've just got a bit of head noise and often influenced by social media and whatnot. So you know, it's it's not always your fault.

SPEAKER_03: 21:45

And in terms of approaching that conversation as a practitioner, um, you know, what advice do you have to aspiring dietitians and nutritionists and and I even fitness professionals as well, because yeah, we stumble upon this stuff far more often than I guess we're qualified to or should. Um, and there's a fine line between going generally like let's ask the right question and point them in the right direction and going, okay, you need to actually go and speak to someone properly.

SPEAKER_00: 22:11

Yeah, for sure. I think that's a great question. And you're right, you guys are usually the first point of call. You're usually also the person who maybe someone doesn't want to see a dietitian or doesn't want to see a psychologist because that seems too extreme. So they're kind of like, oh no, I can I can do this myself, just tell me what to do, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 22:27

Um it does, it does seem extreme, and I think a lot of people assume that. They go, Oh, I'm a schools dietitian. Well, I'm not an athlete, really. I just train.

SPEAKER_00: 22:36

Yes, hang on. It's like anyone, I see anyone and everyone, 100%. Um, but yeah, uh flags to look out for. I think flags to look out for one, like you know, going down that chart that we would use, anthropometry, you know, has their body weight changed significantly in a short period of time that uh either gained or lost weight? Has it changed significantly? Um, two, what what what are their conversations around food? Are they demonizing food a lot? Are they saying, oh, I'm restricting a lot? Are they saying, oh, in a deficit again? You know, or oh my deficit's not working, you know, you're like, okay, you know, wonder why. Okay. Um understanding their yeah, it's just a lot of a lot of thoughts and head noise around with it, I think. Um there's only so much you guys can do in terms of observing how much they're eating. Well, there's that too. And sometimes we'll even use like a a picture-based food diary to then like assess that. But I think it's just more around um, yeah, their their conversation around food. Are they trying to restrict a lot? Are they getting overwhelmed with it? Um yeah, are they like talking quite negatively about food or other people's food? Like, is there judgment from that end? Um, because yeah, those are the kind of things that I would recommend someone probe. Someone go, oh, tell me about that. Oh, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 24:02

A little bit more listening.

SPEAKER_00: 24:04

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Be really curious. Not without judgment.

SPEAKER_03: 24:08

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00: 24:09

Without judgment. Because you know, you don't know what they're going through, you don't know where this has come from. You know, some people have these traits. The the classic, um, have you had this where like your parents were like, you have to finish everything on your plate?

unknown: 24:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 24:21

The amount of clients that I have coming to me to say that that has messed their head up. Oh, really? Where they yeah, yeah, that's funny. Like they're struggling with their like, you know, listening to those hungerfulness cues.

SPEAKER_03: 24:30

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 24:31

Because their parents have, you know, and and to be fair, not to, you know, um chit on parents or anything like that, but it's like that's what they knew.

SPEAKER_01: 24:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 24:41

So so yeah, uh around those thoughts, and I would just say act curious, and then, you know, when you can when you don't have an answer, that's when I recommend referring on. Or when you probably not necessarily an answer, but you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03: 24:55

Like when you sort of feel there's a scope of I don't have an understanding. Yeah. I can't quite, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 25:02

Am I gonna know everything? Am I because you like I think it's important to be aware that you could really jeopardize someone's relationship with food. Like a lot of a lot of just like those and I'm not all eight-week challenges or anything like that, but there are some extreme instances where people have lost a lot of weight because they've eaten next to nothing. And then, you know, coaches have been like, oh, well, if you don't eat nothing, like it and then they're like, Oh, why can't I lose weight now? It's like, oh, it's because you're eating so much fruit. You know, there's a lot of judgment in it.

SPEAKER_03: 25:29

And and it's not ill-intended, I think. It's the funniest thing. But I've seen it. I mean, I've been in the industry for a long long enough to have, you know, lived through the boot camp eight-week challenge era and and worked in it and you know, have seen people do bodybuilding and all that sort of stuff. And that in its own right is a sport, and a lot of people that I saw go into it went in because of you know a personal relationship with food and their body, rather than I want to participate in this sport. Very different. Yeah. Um, and then, you know, seeing the wash up of that two, three-year process, these individuals coming out way worse than they went in in terms of psychologically and their relationship with themselves and food. Um, and then even more so in their body, they they felt less healthy, um, which is a really nice proxy, I guess, that I like to sort of refer to as is how does it feel? How do you feel? What's your energy levels? What's your enthusiasm levels? Are you sleeping well? Are you recovering well? Do you have DOMS consistently? Yeah. That one for me was like a massive one, particularly, you know, you and when you make sure you make Joe eat his carbohydrates. Um, I just remember you talking about it last year. I think we sort of started this year, um, did a little workshop together and um the carbohydrate thing. And I was like, I'm just gonna make a little bit more effort. And I've had some pretty exceptional dietitians on this podcast as well. And I'm gonna make a bit more effort to just consciously consume a little bit more carbohydrate. And it's like a total different energy and and less the willingness to train. I would still will myself to train and get better and do something hard, but just I just pull up so much better. I'm not so sore.

SPEAKER_00: 26:59

For sure. That recovery. And have you found that like you say you do it in an intense training session, you also don't feel the need to like lay on the couch all day? Like, you actually just recover better because you're replenishing those glycogen source.

SPEAKER_03: 27:09

And it's as simple as that. And it's like I've done a master's and looked at the molecules of to why that's working.

SPEAKER_00: 27:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 27:14

But sometimes you need that. You just kind of slip habitually, and that was the thing for me is I just realized habitually I just wasn't quite maximizing the possibility of you know replenishing my glycogen stores as nuanced as that is. But um, it was quite funny.

SPEAKER_00: 27:29

I'm curious just on that. So you said that you've had a lot of people like come through in terms of bodybuilding or like challenges and whatnot. Like, what are the main things that you've identified in terms of like uh what do you call them clients, members? Yeah, yeah, like their language around their relationship with freedom.

SPEAKER_03: 27:47

A lot of that bodybuilding era and then that eight-week sort of challenge era was probably early on in my career. Um and then in terms of I I guess where that came from, we we we were half as well versed as we are now. There was a lot less internet, there was a lot less social media. I'm that old. Um, you know, 2011, 2012 Instagram came out. So people were less informed.

SPEAKER_01: 28:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 28:10

And so we associated health with a lean, jacked body, men or woman. Um, so it was really funny watching that. You know, this is me, 17, 18, 19, while I'm at uni working at a commercial gym, seeing that happen. Um, and then that sort of whole boot camp eight-week challenge, and then the the fast fitness sort of brands that came through as well. So a lot more of that was just like the capacity to train really hard and do really hard training and then, you know, drop a bunch of weight. So it's like, let's burn more calories, eat less food, and it's that simple. And what your motives are should be to look a certain way or be a certain way, which is really what built the ethos behind, I guess, how we try and approach it is we don't really touch fore and afters ever. Yeah. And we don't really touch body composition, like some of the longevity stuff around bone density and muscle mass. Sure, we might do that on our sort of higher end specific clients, but in general, it's just purely output capacity, it's range of motion, it's strength capacity, it's power capacity, and it's you know, metabolic tests of some kind that will go, okay, what is your ability to perform like? And so that's kind of where we are, which is funny the amount of people that walk in to sign up here and they go, I want to lose five kilos, I want to send us a body composition or body image.

SPEAKER_00: 29:20

That's usually how they come in, right? Yeah. And then you educate. And I think that's it. Like incidentally, usually when you're focusing on the performance and your health, incidentally, usually the body composition follows.

SPEAKER_03: 29:33

But yeah, that's a that's a a little side benefit that you go, oh, cool, I'll take it.

SPEAKER_00: 29:38

Exactly. But I love what you guys have done in terms of that's not the primary focus. The primary focus, you know, even I've trained itself for you know quite some time now, and I'm loving that. It's like it's it's on those, you know, it's on longevity. It's on longevity, it's about how you perform, it's about your strength, it's about setting you up for the future. And I think that's the way that we should even approach body competition. Position where it's like there can be too much pressure, and too much pressure can sometimes mean that you actually fall off the rails with it. So if you actually just focus more on that lifestyle, even for me personally, that's how I kind of stepped out of my disordered eating, where I stopped focusing so much on body composition and just started focusing on training and fueling, and and you just feel so much better. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03: 30:22

I think that's the biggest thing is the the feel element. It's um it really you know defines your excitement to move your body and train. Um and then um I guess even more so the ability to recover and redo that, yeah, which is which is the most fun part. Um last one on body composition. Um in terms of I guess this whole running movement, which is such an exciting thing to see people get involved in, um has its pros, has its cons. From a body composition perspective, as people are trying to get into more running, um, what are the mistakes they're making in terms of their body and and its relationship, I suppose, or its ability to contribute to the way they run, better, worse injuries, that sort of thing?

SPEAKER_00: 31:04

Whilst they're trying to adjust their body composition?

SPEAKER_03: 31:06

Yeah, like going, oh, I want to run better. My body composition is this sort of worrying factor for me. What's kind of the mistake that people are making in terms of I A, either trying to change it or B, um, I guess, you know, disregarding their running performance in an obsession with a body comp.

SPEAKER_00: 31:21

Yeah, sure. Once again, I think yeah, it really just does depend on the individual, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03: 31:29

Depends. Best answer to the question.

SPEAKER_00: 31:32

It's honestly every time I do a QA, it's my first response. Um I think Yeah, actually, I think my the most common mistake that I would see is that people um go to the extreme. They go, I need to lose three kilos. I'm gonna cut very like you know, so much out of my diet, and they go to the extreme as opposed to doing things in a more controlled way, where it's like, okay, we're in off-season right now, you know? And even this for the general runner who's, you know, not an elite athlete, you can still see your still see your training blocks as off-season. Usually over Christmas, you know, your New Year's, we're having a bit more fun. That's like our off-season, and then maybe towards the middle of the year, that's when you're competing more. So I I think that's important to even think about for the general athlete versus like as well as the elite athlete is having that off-season period. And okay, maybe that off-season period is when you're focusing more on that body composition manipulation, if that is a goal for you. Um, because you don't have that high training volume, you don't have that high injury risk, you don't have that high illness risk, you don't have that high, like there's just so much more pressure that comes, and then training load increases and everything like that, and the intensity increases when you're in in season, you know, when you're training for a a competition, and that that competition could be a 5k, it could be an ultra marathon, and you could do two a year, or you could do 10 a year, like whatever it is, wherever your block is where you have the most time between competitions, use that to adjust your body composition, and then the rest of the time, focus on fueling, focus on feeling good, focus on that recovery, focus on what is gonna get the most out of my performance and how am I gonna you know recover in between each of those sessions. Um, but like as a more mathematical response, I would say with my athletes, if I'm you know trying to adjust body composition, but they're still trying to focus on their performance, I would say we want to do a moderate deficit, so nothing too extreme, nothing greater than 20% calorie deficit per day. So say as a round number, you require a thousand calories per day, which no one will, but you know, as a round say two thousand. Let's say two thousand. Okay, there we go. Okay, could you use 20%? Say you require 2,000 calories in a day and you do a 10% calorie deficit, you're in you know, 1,800 calor, 1,900 calor a day, 20% wait, no, see I just find it round numbers.

SPEAKER_03: 34:07

It's 1800.

SPEAKER_00: 34:08

So 1800 was the first one, yes.

SPEAKER_03: 34:10

Yes, that's a 10% drop, and then so it sort of goes, but it's just understanding how how important is someone to is it for someone or your athletes particularly to understand their resting metabolic rate in this context?

SPEAKER_00: 34:23

I think it's good to have an understanding of your resting metabolic rate. I think it's good to have an understanding of what your body requires at maintenance, and I think it's good to have an understanding of how that might change. People forget that part. Yeah. That it changes, like if you're trading a lot more versus training a lot less, like, oh, do you have energy requirements will change? Yeah. And then having your understanding of what's in your food. But in terms of resting metabolic rate, I think um that like that is the main user of energy in a day for most people, unless you're like an IMN athlete or something. So that is the main user. Um, just so that you guys know for context, resting metabolic rate is the amount of energy that your body is going to burn at rest. So if you were to lay in bed all day, that's the that's the energy that you're burning there. And for most people, it's it's more than 50% of their daily energy expenditure. Okay, it's actually quite a significant amount. Um, and so that is the time where your body is undergoing, you know, a lot of those repair processes and whatnot. Um, and it will increase if you're injured or ill or something like that. Um, so that's that's also good to be aware of. But yeah, we we want to make sure we're meeting that.

SPEAKER_03: 35:29

Um, and then no more than that 20% deficit.

SPEAKER_00: 35:34

So the resting metabolic rate is just one part of your daily maintenance requirements. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 35:41

How many people get that wrong?

SPEAKER_00: 35:42

Right. So that's it. So there's four components uh to your energy expenditure. So resting metabolic rate is one, your thermic effect of food, so the amount of energy that your body uses to break down food is another component. It only really burns up to 10%, but you know, it's still a component. Um next is your non-intentional exercise. So that's the amount of energy that your body is burning, us using our hands right now, fidgeting, walking around, like that's where your step count comes in, cleaning whatnot. And then the fourth component is the amount of energy you're expending expending rather during exercise. So yeah, and a lot of people do perceive that you know that is the main user of energy, but it's really like on average, 10 to 20% of someone's daily energy expenditure.

unknown: 36:28

Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_00: 36:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 36:29

So if you've got an athlete, as we said, we go back to that, they they're gonna daily energy expenditure burn 2,000 calories in a day. Yeah. They're in season and performing, they do need to generate a slight degree of body composition change. 10% is the number that you're putting on.

SPEAKER_00: 36:46

10 to 20, like yeah. And once again, depending like say it's a weight class athlete where their weight is really important, okay. We go more extreme then. Um but yeah, I would I wouldn't go anything greater than 20% um calorie deficit usually.

SPEAKER_03: 37:01

In season.

SPEAKER_00: 37:03

In season.

SPEAKER_03: 37:04

Is it different in those off-season blocks?

SPEAKER_00: 37:07

Like you could go, yeah, you could push it more during off-season, but that you then have to consider the um muscle loss risk. For someone who has really high energy requirements, we can push a more extreme calorie deficit. Okay, so you require 4,000 calories in a day. It's like, okay, 500 or 1,000 calorie deficit a day isn't gonna mean much to you.

SPEAKER_03: 37:27

It's a it's a it's a percentage-based, right?

SPEAKER_00: 37:29

Yeah, exactly. So that's why it's percentage-based. Whereas, yeah, um, you know, smaller people. And that's important to keep in mind is yeah, people with lower energy requirements are gonna lose weight slower as well. So um, yeah, that's a common misconception too. But yeah, I would say do the 10 to 20% calorie deficit. I would say prioritize your carbohydrates, as Kieran just said there. Hit your minimum protein, hit your minimum fats, make the rest of your energy carbohydrates. If you're still training during that time, that's gonna help keep you fueling for that. Um, and then I would also consider, like, you know, am I having creatine? Am I omega-3s? Am I like, am I optimizing everything so I'm maintaining my muscle as well during that time?

SPEAKER_01: 38:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 38:10

So not only maintaining feeling good in terms of managing that hunger and the energy across the day, but then also am I maintaining my muscle? Am I yeah, a lot of those other metabolic functions.

SPEAKER_03: 38:20

Yeah, which is probably something misunderstood by a lot of people is is, you know, one, obviously, we want to maintain the muscle mass, particularly from an athletic perspective, um, as best we can. We don't want to go into those deficits where we're suddenly losing our actual functional um force contributing masses. Yeah. It's most important. Um, and that's where probably that too extreme of a deficit really hinders people. Um so if if we sort of stay or slide a little bit away from body composition, um anecdotally, uh, I've had two really interesting stories. One happened literally probably a couple of hours before we started this. Um, one um patient member uh he's been rehabbing a sort of significant injury that was essentially a nine-month window um uh of recovery and required a massive surgery and sort of six weeks of isolation of the injury site and then so forth. But in that time we did a lot of training. And then from a, I guess, a diet sort of food source, he's he's worked with all the sort of professionals, physios, myself, um, dietitians, and even sports psyches. Um, he just focused on okay, well, I'm gonna get really strong and eat as much fuel as I can.

SPEAKER_00: 39:29

Great.

SPEAKER_03: 39:30

And watching, okay, I must side note. This is the best adherence I've ever seen to a program in general, let alone a rehab plan of such significance. Um, hasn't missed the session, done everything perfectly, gotten as strong as possible. The recovery rates he's made as a result, and I attribute a lot of it down to just his willingness to actually go really hard at the overfueling. He's he's put on like 10 kilos of mass and over the you know, whatever months, six month period, um, functional, non-functional, I don't really care. He's rehab the injury really well. And as a result, he's now in that sort of return to running state, getting closer to the return to play state in the next couple of months. There's a lot of excitement because we're smashing every stage really well because he's done such a good job from a feeling perspective. Another one that happened this morning, and this is a client who's you know older, really active, really healthy, very inquisitive about his health and um and willing to do what it takes. Same thing, little knee um sort of issue, just got cleaned up, required a bit of a restriction, and then in his return from that, wants to rush it, wants to do it, but we just jumped on the scale for the first time. He's put on maybe three or four kgs of mass and was like, whoa, okay, we didn't intend on that. What the hell? And I was like, mate, you've gotten so much stronger at everything else. Your training's been epic and you've probably fueled yourself appropriately for this rehab. How often do people make that mistake? They get an injury, they go, Oh, I'm not I'm not moving as much. Cut the fuel. Yet the importance of fueling to recover from injury is probably one of the more like important things we can do.

SPEAKER_00: 41:10

But what beautiful examples. Like kudos to them, because that exactly what you said there, it's a mental shift. If someone, if someone has gained an injury from sport, or like, you know, they they are used to doing a lot of sport, they're it's usually someone who likes to achieve. So if they can't do sport and achieve much significantly, um, in their eyes, during their rehab process, then they're like, what else is significant? Oh, my body composition. I'll work on that now. And you're absolutely right. If someone goes into a deficit during I will, I will never, I never put someone into a deficit while they are recovering. If they, you know, if they're back to like regular exercise, sure, we'll do it then. But while they're recovering, it significantly slows down that recovery. And I know that their main goal is to get back out into sport. So it's like, for what? You know, say you have to recover for an extra month. Let's not go into a deficit. Let's use this time to focus on a different thing. So that's it. So it's switching that mentality because I can understand that they want to achieve. And then going, great, let's use this to get as strong and as healthy as possible. Let's, you know, let's gain some muscle. Let's work with your coaches and stuff to start gaining that muscle. Let's focus on that rehab. Let's get some subs that's gonna support those joints or tendons or ligaments or whatever's been torn. Um, you know, let's up, let's do a blood test, optimize your, you know, blood health. Like, let's do everything we can to get you in the best position so that when you're back, you're good and you're ready to go.

SPEAKER_03: 42:47

You're back better than you went in.

SPEAKER_00: 42:48

100%, 100%. Like, let's use this time to our advantage and then manipulate body composition later. Well, you can focus on gaining muscle, absolutely. That's only going to benefit you. But if you focus on, you know, losing weight, that's detrimental.

SPEAKER_03: 43:01

Yeah, particularly to the injury, right? It's just significantly. So to sort of stay on that and the recreational person that is navigating that niggle, which, you know, first and foremost, how often do those bone stress, ligament stress niggles, um, how often are they related to fuel?

SPEAKER_00: 43:20

Oh, so often. You know how we were talking about the hustle culture before? Oh man, they're just becoming as increasingly common as hustle culture. So bone stress injuries or like overuse injuries are uh like yet can be significantly related to nutrition. There's this concept called low energy availability. Have you heard of that before? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, LEA? Beautiful. Um, actually, we may have talked about it in a press together. Yeah. Um, so essentially, we're there's a math equation to essentially establish if you do have LEA. Um, but it's it involves are you in a calorie deficit? So are you consuming less than you're expending in a day? And then do you have a low body fat percentage already? Those people are at the highest risk. If they whether they're aware that they're in a calorie deficit or not, because that's also a common thing where people just start training a lot, they're eating and they're like, I don't know how much I weigh, I'm tracking it, like, I don't know. Like, and it's you know, to an extent that's kind of beautiful because you're like, oh cool, you're not hyperfixating on it. But you've also got to be wary that okay, if that continues to drop, you're essentially compromising your body of its health. So with the bone stress injuries, there's a lot of science that goes into it, but it's basically related to your hormones. So if your body is um doesn't have too much, like doesn't have enough energy, it realizes that it's in a state of low energy availability, it will start to decrease hormone production, specifically estrogen. And the estrogen plays a really important role in terms of bone mineral um density and actually bone formation. Okay, so if that hormone is decreased, then you actually have lower production um around within your bones, and so then like that significantly increases your risk of um stress fractures and and and bone breakages and whatnot. Um, and then you know, in addition to that, so or outside of that, um, there's yeah, low fueling, so you know, um, in terms of like calcium intake, in terms of vitamin D intake, in terms of like those nutrients, if you are training really hard, you need to be optimizing your nutrition just as hard. So even for the recreational athlete, you know, there's a lot of things that you need to think about there.

SPEAKER_03: 45:42

If we look at this longevity lens and um all the noise about bone density for you know pre postmenopausal women.

SPEAKER_00: 45:51

Yeah. So there's an estrogen fluctuation there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 45:55

Totally right. Yeah. Do we know? Because it's all the big song and dance about estrogen and the changes in that period of life, which are you know gonna happen. Yeah, for sure. Um do we know if there's much to do with LEA in earlier stages of life through your 20s and your teens, um, and obviously the formation of bone density in those periods and its influence later on in life. Like, you know, someone that's really active and healthy and done all the right things for the last 10 years through their 40s and 50s still has osteopenia or potentially osteoporosis as they get to their mid-50s. Um, and they're going, I don't know why. I've done everything right. I feel well, I did this for the last 10 years, I've done it.

SPEAKER_00: 46:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 46:34

But potentially they've actually compromised themselves. Is that related or is that something that you can sort of negate?

SPEAKER_00: 46:39

Absolutely. Absolutely. The the easiest way for you to assess that is doing like a DEXA and assessing that bone mineral density.

SPEAKER_03: 46:47

At a young age or even now.

SPEAKER_00: 46:50

Even now, like at any point where you're concerned that you're like, okay, has what I've done compromised that? Because it can be very highly likely, especially if, you know, they were like me and they lost their period, you know, that's an extreme sense where it's like that sort of critical hormonal. Hormonal development. Yeah, 100%. And like they, but because of that underfueling and then that overtraining, you know, uh, I don't know the start exactly off of my head, but I think like if someone has someone's lost their period for like greater than three months, I think they I don't I don't I don't know if they're bone density, bone mineral density halves, or like they they have the same bone mineral density as someone who is menopausal or something like that. Like it it significantly reduces even from short periods of time of yeah, don't quote me on that, everybody, but it's something like that. Um uh yeah, it can significantly compromise that bone mineral density. So I would just say that if they're concerned, do a DEXA, see where it's at, and then optimize everything from their calcium, vitamin D, you know, things like that.

SPEAKER_03: 47:54

What is a well-fueled athlete, well-fueled recreational exerciser or runner look like compared to one that isn't?

SPEAKER_00: 48:02

In terms of their daily eating?

SPEAKER_03: 48:05

More so when they present to you. What are you sort of seeing? And are you doing a decent job? Just optimize these few things rather than we need we've got a serious underfueling here. And they and they're not aware of it. How are they presenting day to day? How might they feel day to day?

SPEAKER_00: 48:17

Yeah, great question. Um, yeah, I think to a lot of those points that you mentioned before, where it's like, okay, are they sleep compromised? Um, how's their mental health? That's a big one. Um, you know, like mood fluctuations that increase in anxiety and depression when you're underfueling.

SPEAKER_01: 48:33

Um, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00: 48:35

Yeah, massive digestion. Digestion significantly altered, um, where they might present to you as like having more IBS like issues, and it's like, oh, you're actually underfueling. Um, really interesting, but like in extreme sense, uh if they did a blood test and their cholesterol is high, which sounds really strange, but the body will actually do that as a protective mechanism to um because we do need a level of cholesterol. So in extreme sense, you know, if they have a higher cholesterol, that's a warning sign. Um if they don't have their period as uh, you know, someone with a traditionally regular menstrual cycle or um with a uterus, um if they if they're noticing that like their performance isn't improving, if their weight is dropping, um, if their increase in injuries, illness, um yeah, those would be some of the main ones. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03: 49:30

A lot of flags.

SPEAKER_00: 49:31

Oh man, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 49:32

But I think people need to understand that and they need they need to be willing to observe that on themselves. Right. As I said, like for me, cramp was a major thing that I often was dealing with, either in training or particularly post-hard training sessions, be it long runs or intense sessions. Um, and then DOMS, just DOMS, man, like be sore for like two days off sessions that I've done for six weeks straight. Like I shouldn't be DOMSY after this. And it was just I'm probably just not leaning on the carbohydrate side of things. And not intentionally, just observationally, I just probably wouldn't have consumed that just for large periods of the day and maybe a little bit at night, or maybe or just not had it at night for whatever reason.

SPEAKER_00: 50:10

How long did that go on for where you were like experiencing the cramping and you know, aches?

SPEAKER_03: 50:15

God. It would depend on the phase of training that I was doing. Um, but for a couple of years there.

SPEAKER_01: 50:22

Yeah, really?

SPEAKER_03: 50:24

And not like a I'm waking up at night and pain cramping. No, I sure just like after I train hard, I would oh, oh, look at that, I'm cramping again. Wow, yeah, cramp, cramp, cramp. Most of the time. And now just because I'm a little bit more conscious about and I'm like loving leaning on pieces of fruit earlier in the morning or whatever it might be. So, you know, that when I do get to that training session, I'm filled and I feel it and I train well. Um, but more so it's than just leaning on something post um and not feeling a degree of urgency or rushing, like sometimes it doesn't happen. So what I'm not that hung up on it. Um but also just being willing to, and I'm gonna make the effort for this because I just feel better.

SPEAKER_00: 51:00

Yeah, there you go. So it was like, you know, the combination of experience eight for a long time, but then also listening to you know, people talk about nutrition that made you go, oh, maybe that's the issue for me.

SPEAKER_03: 51:10

Let's try it, see how it feels.

SPEAKER_00: 51:11

Wow, look at that. There you go.

SPEAKER_03: 51:13

And and and I'm only saying this cramp thing, not not that I've written in my journal. I'm I'm cramping this. And like Whoop has mechanisms that you can measure that stuff. Oh, really? Cramp as well. Yeah, you can sort of you can, you know, how much carbohydrates did you consume today if you really want to be intentional in that sense? But um, it's more just anecdotally, observationally in conversation. I'm like, oh yeah, I actually don't feel that at half as much. And yeah, these little things that do go a long way to contributing to that. That oh well, I am actually probably underfueled for what I'm intending to get from an output perspective.

SPEAKER_00: 51:43

Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_03: 51:44

I see it often in clients where cramp, cramp, cramp and an afternoon session, and I'm like, they're like, I drank so much water today, and I had my electrolytes, and I'm like, how much food did you eat?

unknown: 51:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 51:57

I had breakfast, haven't eaten lunch yet. I'm like, it's 3 p.m., brother.

SPEAKER_01: 52:00

Like, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 52:01

We might need to do something because you want to get stronger. Like you're you're in your mid-50s, you want to get stronger. We're gonna need to actually, you know, have some stores of energy to utilize. You can't just train on an empty stomach and expect a decent result.

SPEAKER_00: 52:15

No, definitely not. And the amount of times when you like when people like tell me that they started eating before training, they're like, wow, I just feel so much better. I'm like, wow, who would have thought?

SPEAKER_03: 52:24

I got so much stronger as well. Like probably 10-15%.

SPEAKER_00: 52:27

Really? Yeah, just the carbs.

SPEAKER_03: 52:29

Oh, that's not hard.

SPEAKER_00: 52:30

They make such a big difference. And I think I'm just yeah, so glad that we're changing that narrative from demonizing them to optimizing them essentially.

SPEAKER_03: 52:39

And that's you know, I mean, I tried it, I did, I did it. Mum, mum was really inquisitive and was like, okay, let's try this keto thing. And I've looked at it and this was me at 21. Fully was like, right, if we're gonna do it, do it and obsessed with it, did it for a year and was training every single morning at 5 a.m., disciplined. I have got the spreadsheets of all the weights and everything that I lifted. I did not get an ounce stronger. I felt felt I got leaner, um, but I didn't actually measure it. Um, but I just didn't get stronger, I didn't get better in training as you know, best as someone can train for a year. Um, and at the time I then started doing my masters and then just got my ass handed to me by um one of the professors, and not saying, Oh, I'm doing this, what do you think? He just sort of said, Here's your fuel system, here's your energy system, yeah, and here's the need for glucose. Yeah. If any athlete tells you otherwise, you need to do your very best to have them to understand the importance of this for their performance.

SPEAKER_00: 53:34

For sure. For sure. Wow.

SPEAKER_03: 53:36

Very interesting. Um, performance nutrition, speaking of. Yes. Um you touched on it, and I think you'll probably want to err on the side of caution because of the typical general pop listener to this that this doesn't apply to.

SPEAKER_01: 53:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 53:50

Um what separates general good nutrition from performance nutrition? We touched on it a little bit at the start, but what are the major things that are you seeing? And I think what do performance athletes, dietitians, worry about that the general person doesn't need to worry about? Let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_00: 54:10

First thing that comes to mind electrolytes.

SPEAKER_03: 54:14

Let's start there.

SPEAKER_00: 54:15

Um would you like me to list off some things or or delve into electrolytes?

SPEAKER_03: 54:20

And then we'll go to like back to electrolytes.

SPEAKER_00: 54:24

Um, what is the general person not need to worry about that the athlete does? I think I think electrolytes, I think extremism in any sense, I think um a lot, just a lot of supplements to be honest with you. Um Yeah, I I think, yeah, it's that like and when I speak to extremism, it's like okay, like you know, you're allowed to eat out, you know, or you actually don't have to track everything to the gram. Even my high-level athletes, I worked with the sons, you know, and even them, like we didn't track everything to the gram. Like, you know, it's it's I use a very similar meal plan template for them as I do my my current clients because it's it doesn't need to be to that gram. And I think that's really, really important for anyone to recognize. Um, but yeah, like yeah, so I would I would say those things.

SPEAKER_03: 55:18

Um but yeah, going into the electrolyte side of things before we go there, yeah, let's define electrolytes because you need to take electrolytes. Well, what's in them? Where do they start? Where do they finish? Is it magnesium, is it sodium, is it potassium, how much? What else goes into them? What doesn't need to be in them? Sure. Let's start there.

SPEAKER_00: 55:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 55:43

So define an electrolyte.

SPEAKER_00: 55:45

Define an electrolyte. So electrolytes, um, there's several, but the main ones are sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium, and chloride. Um, they're the main ones that you'll see in a lot of sports drinks, and they're the main ones that um, you know, we tend to study. So essentially, um with electrolytes, a lot of them are involved in a lot of you know processes inside of the body, a lot of very natural processes that are very important. Um, something that a lot of people don't realize is there are electrolytes in all of your food too. It's crazy, I know, but it's not just in a supplement, it's in food. So sodium, we know salt, we know sodium. Sodium, salt is actually sodium chloride, so you've actually ticked off two electrolytes there. Um, magnesium, he's found in a lot of um, you know, fruits and veggies. He's found in the ocean, even. And you know, you can absorb some through the ocean. Um, yeah, so so they're found in a in abundance in a lot of different areas naturally, anyways. Um, but yes, they are important for the body. Uh, and what I will say is like a general answer, we can delve into things if you would like to, but as a general answer, we naturally so there was a recent study that was put out, um, and like research, what we've seen is that we know that sodium is the main electrolyte lost through sweat, chloride is the second one, and then your other electrolytes are very minimal that you lose. Okay, we use them throughout the day, don't get me wrong, but we don't really lose them through sweat. So if there are two set electrolytes that you are to be concerned about, it's sodium and chloride. Combine them, combine them, there's your salt, there's your table salt. Oh, wow, it's so accessible, and it's like two dollars for it, half a kilo. Um, but yeah, so they're the main ones that we're losing. Now, this study that was uh put out recently, I think it showed that on average, now look, I wasn't surveyed, I don't know who they surveyed. Um, but on average in Australia they found that um females tend to consume around 2,800 milligrams of sodium per day. Um, and males, I think was oh, like 4,000 or something like that. Wow, yeah, on on average, and don't get me wrong, we've got a westernized diet where majority of our sodium is coming through processed foods. Yeah, it's a natural preservative, you know, we understand that. Um, but yeah, it's it's quite high. And to put it into perspective, the our general, like our recommended daily intake is between there's around 2,200 milligrams per day. So the average person is constantly exceeding that every day, anyways, through their food intake.

SPEAKER_03: 58:28

So and then they go buy a supplement.

SPEAKER_00: 58:30

Then brings the question why do we need the electrolytes for the average person, not for like in extreme endurance athletes and whatnot. Or like labor workers and miners and things like that. That's also different. If someone's sweaty all the time, they probably need more electrolytes.

SPEAKER_03: 58:42

And that's essentially the proxy with which we can assess this.

SPEAKER_00: 58:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 58:46

Okay, because the elite athlete might do two or three sessions a w a day. Yeah. You know, particularly the endurance folks, they're doing stuff in the morning, so they might be in the pool, they've got a gym session around lunchtime, early afternoon, and then they've got a cycling or running session in the afternoon. It's a lot of sweat. Yes. Yeah. And then your labourers and the guys, particularly out there, guys and gals working in the subtropical sort of Queensland heat and the humidity, they're probably, you know, going to be the same in terms of actual just sweat proximity. Now, the best way to sell a supplement, particularly an electrolyte, is say it helps with cramp. Does it, does it not? Depends.

SPEAKER_00: 59:26

The oh no, actually, it's not, depends, isn't even the answer for this one, actually. The famous question. Um I should say that research is forever evolving. Okay. And we we can it's very rare for us in the nutrition space, especially, to be able to give a definitive answer to be like A plus B equals C. Like we just don't really have that, especially in the electrolyte space, and especially because of how challenging it is to actually research. Um but in the context of cramping, We've seen very rarely that electrolyte supplementation actually helps to relieve a cramp or prevent cramping. Cramping is actually more often than not related to um related to neuromuscular fatigue. So this is actually your more like your realm where say say for example um yeah like it's it's basically where your nervous system fires your muscles. Okay if we aren't used to firing those muscles at that pace or to that intensity or for that long, then that nervous system that you know those neurons that are firing that can get fatigued. And so that causes a spasm within the muscle and it causes it to contract. And so things like pickle juice or whatever actually distract the nervous system. That's essentially what it does. How crazy is that?

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:56

So they're saying that mechanistically that's kind of what they think the pickle juice thing is all about.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it um there's some nerves essentially at the back of your throat. Um what is it called? I don't know, off the top of my head, but um, it'll essentially activate that and it will basically distract the the nerves of what wherever you're cramping.

unknown: 1:01:17

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:17

Yeah, it's amazing. So it'll actually help to kind of relax it and go, all right, you know, let's focus on something else.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:24

Is it not related to the extra? Okay. Because that sort of was my theoretical um, I guess, understanding was I was like, you know, particularly run out into the rugby field and throw pickle juice at guys. And I literally used to buy jars of pickles and pour the juice out and eat the pickle and then you know throw it at them when they were cramping in the 55th or 65th minute. Uh, why, why, why? And I was like, they're like, is it the sodium? I'm like, sure. Like, whatever. I'm not gonna ask this question on the middle of the game, but it's more that oh, they pull a face and they oh when they wince and then they swill it around and spit it out. Yes, and yeah, so it's and and I was certain that it was a neural component, but we didn't really ever have that understanding until I think most recently, because someone's obviously gone and actually scientifically tried to answer the question.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:09

Exactly. Great assumption, and yeah, that there's the answer. So, yeah, so usually that's what's causing cramping. Electrolyte imbalances um can cause cramping, but it's once again, it's hard to measure and it's not as common of what we've seen in the research. Um, but sometimes what can happen is if someone is overhydrating, so if they're consuming too much water and not enough electrolytes, like they're just flushing the body out to like to the point where like we just don't need that much fluid, then um it can cause an imbalance in terms of the electrolytes and fluid ratio within the blood. And so then sometimes that can yeah, essentially cause a deficiency of a um sodium going to the muscle and and um can bring on that cramping.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:55

Um that's very interesting. I think a lot of people misunderstand that. They roll around with a big one-liter water bottle and they plow through, you know, four of those in a day.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:07

And then go and train and cramp, and they go, I've I'm so well hydrated. It's like, well, how do you define hydration?

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:13

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:14

So let's say on that, how would you define effective hydration for people?

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:18

That's a great question. Thanks. I would just say based off their urine, I think. Okay. If their urine is a pale to a clear yellow, then I'd be like, yeah, you're you're hydrated. Um, but if it's if it's clear continually, then I would say you're overhydrated.

unknown: 1:03:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:36

So that's actually at the point where your body doesn't have enough waste product to build up in the kitties, you just keep flushing everything out. So that's why it's clear. And that sometimes can mean that that's also what's happening inside of your body, where actually like you know, flushing out um all those electrolytes and everything and not really allowing things to build up naturally and stay in balance and um regulate their own ratios.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:01

I like that. Regulate your own ratio, and it's and it's the awareness, um, which sort of brings it up the point of just being aware, being a little bit mindful of what your body's presenting.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:11

Yeah, so I don't I don't want to say like to anyone listening that you shouldn't drink too much water. Is it is rare.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:20

Um it's very hard to do to a certain extent.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:23

Exactly, exactly. But I think for everyone listening, if you use that general marker of is your urine a you know pale to a clear yellow, we're good. If it's too clear, too much hydration, if it's you know, yellow, then maybe let's top it up a bit more. Yeah, let's have a little bit of water, please. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:41

Yeah, okay. Um from a mindfulness and awareness perspective, if there were sort of, you know, two or three major messages that you wanted people to understand, both in everything from observing their urine through to are you actually sitting down and tasting and chewing and eating your food? What are some of the big ones for you? Or like key take homes of like things I would want people to you just wish people would consider doing a bit more.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:09

I think for anyone who doesn't know much about nutrition, I think you should have a look at the Australian dietary guidelines. Now it sounds really silly, but I think nutrition is uh freaking confusing. You know, social media is gonna tell you one thing, your crazy aunt's gonna tell you another thing, I'm gonna tell you another thing on this podcast, right? And it can be really confusing to know what do I focus on, where do I start, you know, all of those things. So I think if you go back to the have your grains, have your protein, have your ignore the accounts where they undergo extremism and they go carnivore and they go keto and they go, you know, all of that. Like you're not gonna enjoy that. Anyone who's listening and you've tried it, tell me why you stopped. Tell me why you stopped, you know, like it's not often sustainable.

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:55

So and I think that's a very important point. It's not sustainable.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:59

Yeah, yeah. And that's it. Even the Australian dietary guidelines includes an amount of discretionary items of you know, those more quote unquote processed fruits. Because that's important for balance. That's and balance is important for sustainability. So that would be my first thing. My second thing would actually be, and I think more people need to do this, get in touch with your body. How does someone do that? You would love that answer.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:27

All over it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:28

How does someone do that? Listen, I and if look, if you're struggling with your relationship with food, this is much harder. And and in your situation, I would probably write you out a maintenance plan so that you can actually start to learn what your body's signals are. Like follow that plan, and then you can go, oh, this is what it feels like to, you know, start feeling hungry just before my meal. Oh, this is what it feels like to be satisfied after my meal, and you know, staying within like a nice little ratio as a as opposed to going from starvation to you know overly full. Like we're fine. I really want to find that middle balance. So I would say get in touch with your body by listening to those hungerfulness cues. Um, and yeah, ways that you can do that is by like having some time at maintenance calories, eating every couple of hours and whatnot, balanced meals. Um ways that you can listen to your body, how energized are you? How do you feel? If you feel like shit every day, if you feel like you've woken up from a good sleep and you're still exhausted or you're not motivated, okay. There's some things we need to address here. Do we need to do a blood test? Where are your micronutrients at? How's your IMB12? Where's your carbohydrates at? You know, like how are those things? Um how you mentally, how's your digestion? How's that operating? Because that's usually people go, oh, I don't want to talk about poops or I don't want to. That's a bit TMI. I'm like, no, no, no, man. Like, that tells me so much about what's going on inside of you.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Literally, right? Literally. Because it's been through you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:52

Thanks, Kieran. And you know, okay, how's your urine? How's your sleep? How are the daily functions outside of work and everything? How are you operating? So, yeah, I would say get in touch with those things. That would be my second point, like get in touch with how you feel. Um, and and respond to that. Don't respond based off of what Sally's doing, respond based off of how you're doing. And I think that applies to a lot of things. Uh, and then my final thing, my final thing. My final thing would actually probably be in a general sense there's so many things I want to say. I no, I think my final thing would be eat enough calories. I think so often if some say someone's struggling with a relationship with food, say someone is struggling with you know, not training as well as what they would like to. Say someone is, you know, in any extreme sense, I do think that if you can come back to eating enough calories and having that balance of that in a day, you're gonna operate so much better. Whatever your issue is. Yeah, have some time at maintenance.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:06

Brilliant. Okay, let's bring it home with some food hacks, if you will.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:12

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:13

And this is like more chef recipe ideas.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:17

Have you seen my Instagram? I'm known for the dietitian who can't cook. But I'll I'll I'll give it a crack.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:23

I mean, I know a lot about food. Yeah, exactly. Right. Your little lunch today was was was a prime example.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:29

That's not a good example.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:31

But you know, um, someone needs to up their protein a little bit.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:35

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:36

What is a wonderful little substitution that maybe works for you? Um, that you might say put in an on a breakfast or a lunch or a snack, or what do you sort of go to?

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:47

Actually, my favorite one for this, if someone is struggling to eat protein, then it's likely that they don't enjoy a lot of protein sources, usually. Not always for usually. Swap your carbohydrate sources to high protein options. This is one of my favorite hacks because I'm not a big meat eater. Like, I'll eat a bit of meat, but like not, I'm not a big fan. I love protein pasta, protein pizza bases, the Simpsons pantry wraps that you were discussing before.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:12

Um, protein, like the protein bread. There's protein versions of nearly every carbohydrate these days.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:20

I think that's such an easy and affordable way to tick off like a couple of boxes and still like get high protein in. And usually those high protein products are high fiber too, which I know you love.

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:31

There you go. You find me a protein potato one day and that'll really win.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:36

That would be that'd take that would sell.

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:38

Yeah, it would sell someone more electrolytes.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:41

Someone the other day, they're like, Oh, can I make a high protein version of BL? And I was like, that would sell.

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:45

That would sell. Seriously, low carb high protein.

unknown: 1:10:48

That would kill it.

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:50

Jeez, we'll edit that out and go and work on that. Yeah, don't sell our ideas. Uh inversely, the low carbohydrate, ambitious person that's training all the time but keeps getting cramped. How do you what do you suggest hacking your way into just getting a few more carbs in one around your training and the two just generally in your diet?

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:12

Yeah, I think trying to aim for that regular eating, so often people will feel like quite full from carbohydrate. So if you can kind of work backwards and distribute it across the day, then you'll find it much easier to, you know, get in. And then also having a look at the volume of your carbohydrates. Rice, for example, probably much easier to consume a high quantity of rice versus potato. Like it's the equivalence of raw to raw, 60 grams of rice is the equivalent of uh 200 grams of potato.

SPEAKER_03: 1:11:43

Wow, from a carbohydrate.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:45

From a carbohydrate perspective, yeah. So it's like, and obviously, look, you cook rice and it swells up and gains some water and you cook potato and it usually, you know, will lose some water. So the volume does change. But like going raw for raw weight, that's what that equates to. So it's like, okay, have a look at the types of carbohydrates that you're consuming to really optimize them. Don't be afraid to add juice and maybe soft drink here and there. If you're someone with a high energy demand, high training demand and high carbohydrate demand, you're gonna need to find ways to get it in.

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:18

And liquid's a lot easier than chewing more rice.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:20

Yeah, you today, you're like, oh, the salad, I love it, but it's a lot of chewing.

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:25

It's a lot of my jaws like um, yeah, that's really interesting. Okay, so then in and around training for that individual that needs to get those quick carbs and they haven't had the luxury of sitting two hours beforehand and eating, you know, uh fibrous serving of carbs and protein. What can they do? Well, what's the hack? What do you grab?

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:44

Do you know this? Do you know my answer for this?

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:46

I think I've seen it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:48

Go on.

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:48

No, you go on. It's your answer. I can't steal your hands.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:51

I know, but I was hoping you'd know. I do know. It's well known. What is it?

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:54

Sultanas.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:55

Oh, okay. He does know.

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:57

I listen.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:57

You do, I appreciate that. Um, yes, my hack is sultanas in the car door.

SPEAKER_03: 1:13:03

I Sultanas in the car door, it's a specific type of sultana.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:06

Oh, 100%. Where else are we storing them? I I come from the stance, so I'm very time conscious. And as I, you know, mentioned to uh at the start of this, busyness is a general barrier. Time is a genuine barrier to good nutrition. Fully aware of that. But tell me how are you getting to the gym? How are you getting there?

SPEAKER_03: 1:13:29

I walk, I live across the road.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:30

Oh, yeah. But it's a but for most people who don't have that luxury, you know, okay, you can swing by the car on the way and have that and chew them as you go. But that's it. It's a it's an individual serve, it's a simple carbohydrate that's gonna break down and absorb really quickly unless you have a fructose intolerance. Um, and it's it's yeah, it's great, it's low volume and it's gonna give you that quick energy. I don't think time is an excuse for your pre-training carbs. I I just don't.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:01

I like that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:02

And even if you are having it as you walk into that gym, you usually, hopefully, taking 10-15 minutes to warm up, anyways. That's enough enough time for that to break down and absorb into your gut, and that to give you the performance benefits. So, yeah. Cardo sultanas, um, shot them back at the traffic lights, otherwise, yeah, vollies, crumpets, honey, jam on pikelets, LCM bar, pretzels, crackers, lots of yummy options.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:28

And this is endless. I know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:30

It's so good.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:30

It's yeah, it's funny. Even just that walk to the gym, they actually, and this is one of my favorite little things, they have a fruit bowl and they just fill it with apples every single day.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:39

Um, and the amount of times I'm like, oh, I've got to try and oh, I don't haven't had enough food, particularly in the last hour or two. Yeah, there's an apple, and it's just like but then you bite into it sometimes and it's a little bit dry, and you're like, oh, I can't put myself through this thing. But still, most of the time it's great and it makes such a difference.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:56

And that's all you need. Just stack up your cardora, have that bowl there, just ready to go. Just needs to be in your foresight, and and you know, you'll just feel so much better.

SPEAKER_03: 1:15:06

Okay, cool. Um people that are probably not consuming enough fats, we'll make this the last one in their general diet. Like obviously, we can supplement amigas and that sort of thing. Um, but the good fats versus the bad fats, it gets quite confusing. What oil do I avoid? Is it even worth avoiding oils? Um, and then I think what are the sort of major ones that we probably under consume and need to just make a bit of time for.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:32

Sure. I think what I first want to start by saying is that yeah, fats sometimes, you know, can be restricted quite a lot. Um, obviously they're a higher calorie food than carbohydrate and protein. So I think if someone is trying to, you know, manipulate their body composition, sometimes they do fall short of fats. Um, it's important to know that from like a hormone standpoint, a brain standpoint, uh decreasing inflammation, preventing injury, everything like that. We need at least, and this is a general guide, I don't think this is fully research backed, but this is kind of where we've fallen to be like, okay, this seems to be a good amount. It's 0.5 grams per kilo of body weight. So, say for example, you're 80 kilos, you're aiming for 40 grams of uh fat at least per day. Okay, at least that's your minimum, and then you know, having upwards from that. So let's make sure that we're getting that in. It's not hard, like it's really not hard, that's not much. Um, but yeah, ways that you can do that, same thing. Making sure every meal, every meal should have each macro, like without question. Um, but to get that in, adding olive oil, extra virgin olive oil has some of the most health benefits with being really high in antioxidants, um, you know, anti-inflammatory protocols and good fats, right? Um, so I would say optimise that olive oil. Um, other oils like seed oils are fine. Like, you know, I'm not delving into that, but like they're fine, calm down. So um, you know, don't be afraid of that stuff, but just kind of going, okay, well, olive oil's probably gotta be a bit more healthy. Extra vegetable olive oil will give me more benefits, so may as well have it from that. Um, you know, avocado salmon, get your two to three serves of salmon per week. The poly and mono unsaturated fats. If you ever like read a nutrition label on a food that's gonna be high in fats, maybe it's a nut bar or something like that. Those are your good fats. They're what we want to optimize. Your saturated fats are the quote unquote bad fats, and they're the ones that are kind of be a bit more detrimental to your health. So we don't want to have too many of them, and they're coming from more of your processed foods, more your pastries, your actually even coconut oil. Um, but then you know, deep fried food, yeah, chocolates, things like that. So I would say moderate them, but then yeah, try to get a trickle of good fats throughout the day. Um, whether that be cooking your meat in some olive oil, adding some Avo to your toast, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 1:17:50

To your crackers of tuna.

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:51

To your crackers of tuna, yes. If you have the olive oil. Yeah, I think it made it so soggy.

unknown: 1:17:58

Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_03: 1:17:59

It does. All right. Well, I'm sure we could just keep going and going, but I think that's enough for now. Um, and I think really importantly, having those actual real life food examples. Um, you know, these principles um are, you know, one part, and I sort of feel that's where um often the dietetics world loses the masses, is they don't grab the food item and go, this thing has this.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:18:23

Um, I will give you credit.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:25

That's actually good too.

SPEAKER_03: 1:18:26

Grab these sultanas and you say, This has this and this is its place, and then you consume it. It goes a long way for people to actually understand because carbohydrate protection like these are all kind of made-up things that we don't really get to see because they're almost molecular, practical example. And then actually grabbing the you know, item is um is probably what a lot of people that have um a bit more influenced, a chef on people's food and the way they consume it, um, is is something. But I will say this you're doing a very good job at that, Hannah. Um and so for anyone not following Hannah, make sure you jump online and follow her because this is the wonderful thing about the internet is that as much as there's flaws and negative things associated with you actually get the opportunity to access high-quality brands like yours. And um, I want to just make sure that you know that you're doing a really wonderful job.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:13

Thank you. That's so kind.

SPEAKER_03: 1:19:15

Um thank you for jumping on today.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:16

Well, my Instagram is just Hannah Mills, um, Hannah with one N, um, because my parents did make that difficult. Um, if anyone does want to follow me, but thank you so much for your time today. I've loved this discussion, and yeah, if anyone ever has any questions, please don't hesitate to contact me. I clearly like talking about this.

SPEAKER_03: 1:19:33

You just send five-minute voice messages.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:36

Yeah, I honestly do. I'm not kidding.

SPEAKER_03: 1:19:38

Could have charged you that. Cool. Well, been a pleasure. Thanks, Han. We'll probably do this again. There's plenty more to talk about, but uh, it's a great start.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:44

Sounds good. Thanks, Garyx. Ah, good. That was great. It was so much fun. I love this stuff. I very prefer being on this side of it.

SPEAKER_03: 1:19:55

Thanks for tuning in to the Science of Fitness podcast. Be sure to check us out across all forms of social media and subscribe to this channel if you want to stay up to date to the latest episodes and any other anecdotes with which we might share across these video platforms. If you ever find yourself locally in Brisbane, be sure to drop into one of our facilities or down on the Gold Coast in Burley. You can also check us out at scienceoffitness.com.au and see all things relating to what we offer in programming and performance, whether it's online or in person.