The Science of Fitness Podcast
Welcome to the Science Of Fitness podcast where we aim to inspire you to live a healthier and more fulfilling life as we share evidence and anecdotes on all things health, fitness, performance, wellness and business.
Hosted by Kieran Maguire, Co-Owner and Director of Science Of Fitness with an Undergraduate degree in Exercise Science and Masters degree in High Performance, the podcast includes guests and friends of SOF from all walks of life sharing their knowledge and stories within their field of expertise.
Join us as we provide listeners with digestible and relatable educational tools and entertaining stories to inspire a healthier and more fulfilling life.
The Science of Fitness Podcast
Recovery Applied with TH7 Founder - Tom Harvey
What if recovery wasn’t a luxury but the easiest way to upgrade sleep, focus, training, and mood? We sit down with TH7 co-founder Tom Harvey to map the shift from novelty wellness to purpose-built protocols that respect time, deliver clarity, and actually make your week feel better. Over the last 18 months Tom’s team opened four clinics and learned why consistency beats variety, how to turn protocols into habits, and what separates a true recovery experience from a sauna and ice bath shoved in a corner.
Tom pulls back the curtain on the operational details that change outcomes: CO2-managed saunas that keep you clear-headed, pristine hot and cold pools auto-tested every ten seconds, and a custom booking system that sequences each step so you’re never stuck waiting. We break down the Nordic protocol—20 minutes heat, guided hot-cold cycling, steam, and a final cold hit—and explain why it remains the most copied format in the space. We also dig into what they scrapped (float tanks, certain mix-and-match combos), what scales and what doesn’t (cryo), and why hyperbaric oxygen therapy pairs so well with full-body red light for return-to-play and deep work focus.
You’ll hear how heat before bed can set up deeper sleep through a thermal drop, why cold in the morning sharpens alertness, and how breath-led exposures make you calmer under pressure in daily life. Most of all, you’ll get a realistic playbook: make it social, lock a weekly slot, aim for the minimum effective dose, and let recovery become a multiplier for training, work, and home. If you want wellness that fits your life—not the other way around—this conversation gives you the framework to start today.
Enjoyed the conversation? Follow the show, share it with a mate, and leave a review so we can help more people build smarter recovery habits.
Welcome to the Science of Fitness Podcast, where we aim to inspire you to live a more healthy and fulfilling life as we share evidence and anecdotes on all things relating to health, performance, business, and wellness. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to the Science of Fitness Podcast. And we are here with one of our my very first guests, Tom Harvey, back for his second round on the Soft Podcast. Tommy, you're welcome. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me again. So owner and uh sort of co-owner, co-founder of TH7 Labs, and uh mate, it's been 18 months since we've had you on the podcast. Uh so that time has flown by and you guys have been moving hard and fast and and really sinking your your teeth into um, I guess, the recovery space and the recovery market. So um, if you were to summarise it really briefly, how's it been?
SPEAKER_01:Oh mate, yeah, it's been busy. Um I think since last time we had a chat, um, we've since opened four new clinics, uh, which has been great. Um and I've actually had a little baby daughter as well. So just to fit that in there, squeezed in it. It'll really help your recovery. Exactly. Yeah, real good for the sleep schools.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, right eh. So before we get into the work stuff, um, which I'm very excited to do, uh, a little segment I've added to uh the guest series that we we run on here. Um three questions about Tom, and I guess to help the listeners and people that follow you get to know a little bit more about you, mate. So um I didn't prep you for this, so I'll have you guys listening know that. Um throwing right in the deep hand here. But first question if you could change one thing in the world um as you see it and as it stands today, what would that be?
SPEAKER_01:Uh it's a very good question. Um, I think I would remove all waiting out of the world. So, in terms of like um, have you seen the movie Jumper? Yes, yeah, I would love to just be have that ability to, you know, just click my fingers and be somewhere else in the world, or just remove that whole waiting aspect. Just dead time, just dead time, yeah, essentially.
SPEAKER_02:So um yeah, yeah, it's probably not as nice as world peace or something like that, but it's uh it probably represents where you are at the moment in this stage of your life, mate. Six month old, work, married, all the work, so uh a lot's been happening. Yeah, um, Rado, next question. So what's one lesson? And I think this applies, what's one lesson that you've learned in the last 12 months, be it through positive or negative um experiences?
SPEAKER_01:Uh similar to well, before, but I think I've learnt more patience um with uh with with work, but also with um everything going on at home as well. Um like I'm a person that really just wants to get things done and wants it done as quick as possible. Um, but I've sort of learned to you know pull back a little bit and go, oh just you know, be a little bit more patient. So make sure it's done right. Make sure it's done right the first time, not just uh get it done as quick as possible. Yeah, absolutely. Cool.
SPEAKER_02:Um and then last one with you know 18 months having gone by, you guys have been cranking it now for the last three years, um plus, probably. Um what's uh what's what number one thing you love about it?
SPEAKER_01:Uh I think the the people, um the the team that we have and also the people coming through the door, like everyone has a different story. Um, and also it's just learning more about the you know the staff and the team that we build. Um working with them every day has been a pleasure and um learning more about them and their families and everything else, and then also seeing, you know, some of the impacts that we have on other people's lives. Everyone's working together um to give people the best service and product that we can, and and it does um, you know, there's little stories that come through every every week or so that it does impact someone's life massively, and you get caught up with um all the all the cool professional athletes coming in and and stuff like that, but it's the the little one or two things that someone's you know um got cancer, or we've helped them sleep better at night, or reduce their pain in using the ice bars or the red light or hyperbaric or whatever it is, and those those little stories have a massive impact on on us. So yeah, that's that's probably it.
SPEAKER_02:It's funny, the the the little anecdotal things do go a long way, and it's um they drip upon your your you know, whatever day, week, whatever it might be, and and just those little moments it's like yes, okay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, carry on. It's all worthwhile, yeah, keep going. 100%.
SPEAKER_02:Right, yeah. So it's been 18 minutes, uh, 18 months since our first chat. Um what's changed most for you, you know, professionally, um, and for TH7 as a business? Obviously, you've you know we'll speak about the baby and a six-month-old now, but um yeah, I guess for you personally and and then within a professional realm, what's changed?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so um as a business, uh when we first sort of spoke last time, um, we had a few sort of irons in the fire with new sites and all that sort of stuff. And I think we've been a lot more selective now um with where we go and where we want to expand to. We've learned a lot a lot of lessons with um opening sites relatively closer to each other than our first one here in West End and our second one in Noosa. Um, so we've learned a lot there with demographics and drive times and and all that sort of stuff. Um, so we're getting better at that. And um yeah, I've taken more of a role in the marketing sort of side of things. Um, something that I want to try and teach as many people is more about the science and about why they should be doing things. And um, you know, we've shifted a lot between uh gone from a casual-based business um with we, you know, we offer protocols and the science of that, but now transitioning more into a membership-based business as well. So um trying to become part of people's life, not just a nice thing to do on the weekends.
SPEAKER_02:So let's stay on the marketing thing for a second because I want to say it's almost something I struggle with, and I'm sure it's probably the same for you, not in the context of don't believe in it or whatever else, like we understand its importance from a business perspective, yeah. But um, I guess facilitating the time um and you know the longitudinal value of it and understanding that. Um, how's that shifted for you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so um when I first sort of dug into it, it was more uh about the you know, the Facebook ads, the Google ads, and and diving in and and seeing that and then looking at all the data uh on the back end of it, which I actually quite enjoyed um because it is essentially how the business makes money. It's it's you got to put it out there and you've got to spend a little bit on um on you know Facebook and Google to get a decent return. So uh, but then the b the biggest sort of driver for us, which you can't measure, is word of mouth, and it's someone coming in and having a good experience and then going home and telling their brother or their partner or their sister or their mum or dad or whatever about it, um, and then they bring someone in. So that's the intangibles that we can't measure. Um, but it was all the stuff that we could that was what Wow was trying to um knuckle down into and go, why is this working? Why is this not?
SPEAKER_02:So yeah. So from a marketing perspective, what do you what do you wish people knew about TH7? Um and I guess what it can do for them. Yeah, it's a big question. Big question. And it's so hard to answer that in a nutshell, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, and I think yeah, the the one thing that I could say is is it can make them feel better. Full start. Um, you know, that's I think that's really powerful. Yeah. And um, so we've sort of, you know, changed our website and all that sort of stuff, and and it based off feedback of everyone that's come in, everyone walks out feeling better than when they walked in. So um that's probably the number one thing that we can do. There is the science and there is um, you know, the long-term benefits of doing more saunas and ice baths and red light and hyperbaric and all that sort of stuff. But the number one thing is just if you walk in, you feel pretty deflated. Every time I do it, I'm you know, do a session, a bad night's sleep, or um, you know, a big training session, I do a sauna and an ice bath and I walk out feeling better. And that's just what we're trying to package up into um nice videos and nice ads and and Google searches and stuff like that to be able to teach it to everyone.
SPEAKER_02:And have people understand that. Yeah, because you know, there's a degree of users that'll probably be listening to this, yeah. And they go, Oh, I can't wait. I want to hear more about these protocols, what they mean, how they work, all the science and the mechanisms. But from the percentage of your consumers, probably wouldn't be maybe more than 30%. Yeah. Um, which is really interesting because you know, we go through the same problem all the time. Like you get told, okay, well, who's your target market? And if I would ask you that question, what what are you gonna say?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's like we'd try and be something for everyone. Exactly. Um, we do have a particular sort of there's the recovery market, which is the person that is um you know a high performer at uh in the gym or at work, and that's the majority of it. But then there's also the other sort of um market that is the longevity and people that want to live a better quality of life for longer, and they might be 60 to 75 years old and coming in to s to feel better in in their life as well.
SPEAKER_02:So exactly. So, you know, then then and and I think that's sort of the conundrum, which is the the sort of place of preventative health in general now is you know, who's the doctor's target market? Well, anyone who's unwell. Yeah. So, you know, for ours, who's ours? Well, it's kind of everyone well that doesn't want to get unwell um in a nutshell. So it is really broad, but uh at the end of the day, science doesn't discriminate. And um, you know, I think a lot of these protocols and a lot of the systems in terms of how people feel, it's generally 99% of users are going to feel better um after going and and I think there's a a psychological layer which I'm sure you can talk to a little bit more. Uh, just purely taking that time out. I know for me that's probably okay, I'll put my hand up now. I've been guilty for not taking the time out. Have not have not gone and treated myself for some TH7 in a while. And uh it's funny that I'm sitting here saying that to you, to the boss, and you know, you can you can spray me after, but um, you know, just in the moments that I've gone and just sat even just in an infrared sauna, just that was my sort of favorite um probably still is, is purely just that it's stop for 30 minutes. Yeah. Yeah, and and I don't take my phone in there. I tried it with the podcast once, I just turned it off. Yeah, just sit there and just deal with your brain and just let yourself slow down and just you know, yeah, actually stop.
SPEAKER_01:Just give yourself time to think by yourself and not having that reaction to grab your phone every time you sit in there, you know, at a cafe or at the bar or whatever it is, and you just instantly pull out your phone because you're by yourself and you don't want to be the stimulus and stuff to do, you've got emails to respond to and everything else.
SPEAKER_02:So you know, I think that that's one of the main ones that really comes to mind for me. Um so you know, what's something you believed strongly about? You know, if you think back 18 months um in terms of recovery recovery, consumers' behavior to recovery, um, you know, when we sat down last time, or at least when you when you launched TH7 three three years ago, um, that you see differently now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I think um back then we sort of thought that everyone wanted variety, we wanted, you know, everything and everything. Um, and now I think people want more clarity than ever. Um, there's a lot of misinformation out there, there's new protocols from different people all around the world, and it's our job to try and cut through all that to just give them um what they actually need that's gonna give them the best benefit in the shortest period of time. Um, so we we have changed a few of the protocols around, or we did you know, expand them uh probably a year and a half or two years ago and going, oh, we we've got to have everything for everyone. Um, but it's just this is gonna fit 85% of the market and um it's gonna give them the best benefit. So let's just stick with that, not try and give everyone 15 different choices because you give someone 15, they make none. If you give them three, they make one.
SPEAKER_02:So that makes a lot of sense. What's sort of the main determining factor you do you think behind people's decision when you know choosing a recovery protocol?
SPEAKER_01:Um, I think uh well the biggest thing that we're sort of competing with is someone's time um when they can fit it into their routine, and that's what you know we've sort of shifted towards um a membership-based business so that we can try and fit it into their routine. And um, the best way to do that is is be consistent with it. Um so whether it is um, you know, every Tuesday morning, I know I get up and I go do an express at TH7 before work, or I make it social with my mates and I go to the gym, come to Social Saturday here and and then go to a sauna and an ice bath or a full Nordic uh at TH7. So we've seen lots of groups and lots of people do that, which is great to see. Um, and that's yeah, probably the the biggest sort of takeaway is just put it part of your uh of your lifestyle, lifestyle and routine.
SPEAKER_02:It's a it's a big factor. And I think it's sort of underestimated by teams and corporations, um, particularly, and even micro teams, you know, it doesn't need to be an entire business of 50 people or whatever it might be, but the marketing team or the legal team or a finance team, yeah, make time for this stuff because you know, most of the time, and we're sitting here and you know, early December, it's silly season, everyone's doing lunches and drinking and doing all this sort of stuff, and people are rolling their eyes, they're going, I've got a lunch on Tuesday morning, lunch Wednesday, dinner Wednesday, and it's just exhausting. And so, you know, well, if you're gonna celebrate something for your team, we've done it a number of times, guys. We're just gonna go and sit at TH7, we're just gonna take some time out and just relax, be healthy, go and be healthy because we kind of like we literally can't afford it. You know, if we have a big dinner and and and we all have a couple of drinks, like someone's gonna wake up at 5:30 Saturday morning, turn up and take class and really stand there and represent. And so the last thing you want is a team hung over. And then most of our guys are really conscious of that. They've got training, they've got Iron Man's and all sorts of things, high rocks that they're training for. So they don't want to be drinking. Yep. Um, and you know, from a cultural perspective in Australia, that that's very much the norm, but it's shifting. I find a lot of people are struggling as to where do I go? Yep. Um, I've got a few really close mates that have literally turned to TH7. We do a Sunday here, um, we train and then we do some conditioning, and it's you know, it's pretty much a sauna downstairs without the fans on.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, nice.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and then they come and do more sauna, so their heart rate gets an absolute smashing. But you know, just from a social mental wellness perspective, it's it's it's really powerful.
SPEAKER_01:Um 100%. And that that's what we've sort of noticed as well, like the the shift from yeah, I don't want to go out anymore on uh, you know, and and people waking up um Saturday mornings and going for a long run and then coming to us and doing a session. And that's what I've started to do with all my mates. You go for a run every Saturday morning, then go do a Nordic. Yeah, and it's a good time to catch up with your mates without having to have beers. Have beers and and and in the late night.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Um if you zoom out, what are the biggest macro shifts you've noticed in the recovery space um and the performance space and even the wellness space since I guess we last caught up, or at least since you started?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I think there's um been a lot more um, you know, brands get on board, lots of gyms, hotels, everyone sort of jumping into the wellness space. And I think it's now seen as a must-have, not just a nice to have. Uh, and that can be a part of um, you know, a corporate setting or a or a place you live, and it's just something that people turn to to go, oh I want saunas and ice bars and and I want this, I want to have access to this um where I live or close to where I live. So I think that's been the biggest shift. There's been um heaps of people sort of enter the market, whether it is uh small little recovery and wellness centres or just big brands getting on board and going, This is we're gonna do it and we're gonna do it big. So um, but I think it's more shifted from just being for the professional athlete to the everyday person. So it could be um a busy business owner or a busy parent, um high stressful job, it's it's becoming um, I need to do some of this stuff or I want to do some of this stuff to perform better at at my life.
SPEAKER_02:So and just feel better day-to-day, right? Exactly. Yeah, yeah, which sort of brings us to the I guess the consideration now of you know the boutique element of TH7, you know, it's very much the same for us. The amount of times people ask and like members, people that work here, you guys gonna put ice bars, you're gonna put saunas in? And I'd just say no, like flat chat, no. Yep. Why? And I'm like, well, one, walk down the road, you know, members get a discount, staff gets a discount. Um, so go to TH7, it's 800 meters away. Um, we haven't had a luxury to say. Yeah, but two, you know, it's not our specialty, and I think that's a really important factor for people to understand. Like, I haven't sat and dived into you know the mechanism and the literature behind recovery protocol because I'm pretty busy looking at movement and science and mitochondrial sort of um behaviors in zone two and when it's actually right, and and and and more importantly, dealing with individuals day-to-day um and and and the anecdotal sort of nuance of delivering as best as possible evidence-based training to people. So um, you know, in that sense, you say, you know, as you said, it's now become a must-have for a lot of gems, corporate sort of fit outs, um, resie buildings, uh, people even putting it in their homes. Um, with so many of these lifestyle type precincts, now adding all these um, I guess, saunas and ice bars. What makes the sort of purpose-built protocols and facility that you know you guys have um different and worthwhile?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so um very similar to to you guys in terms of we're just recovery and wellness, and that's all we do, and um that's all we focus on. Um, so we're never gonna get into the gym space because that's when I think then the the product and the customer experience gets diluted. Um, for us, like we've learned a lot over the past three years um just in operationally of how to run that business. And it seems simple for a um a gym to chuck in a five grand infrared sauna and a and a four grand ice bath in the corner, but within you know, four to six weeks, the ice bath doesn't look like water anymore, and the sauna's dirty and and it and it it gets used, but then it's broken or it's operationally out of order or whatever, or it's yeah, it's just no one wants to use it anymore. Um, and that's what we've sort of mastered over the past couple of years of just gone, it's not just uh stick an ice bath in there and stick a sauna in there. You have to look after it and you have to maintain it. Um, so all the things that we've learnt with the pools and the saunas and all the equipment and the booking system and all that stuff to give people the best experience every single time that they come in. Um, it's taken a lot of work and and a lot of um trial and error, but I think we're pretty good at the at the point now now that we have six and um all all doing doing well operational-wise. So um, yeah, I think that's the the biggest key factor that people think I'll just chuck this in and and add an extra 20 bucks to my membership. But six weeks later it's it's yeah, it's a lot harder than what it seems. And then also I think it's the the the thing that we feel is our difference is our team and our staff. And we've got um Frankie Vou head of uh education that trains everyone uh that comes uh that is a team member of ours as to what the science is and and why we have set up these protocols just so it's that little education piece for the customer coming in that they don't just leave with feeling good they actually leave with a little bit of information as well as to why they feel good.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. What frustrates you the most about just seeing all the stuff sort of pop up and people going, oh I'm just gonna go go there, go do that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so that there's yeah heap heaps of it and um plenty of people sort of you know popping in um saunas and ice buds into you know big gyms and stuff like that. And um I think at a point like people will go and do it because it's convenient and it's like the gym that they go to um but after a while then you know the the number one thing that we focus on is the customer experience. So if we can always keep that at number one never stacking the saunas too full never stacking the pools too full everything's all good until it gets busy at a at a peak time and then they can't get in you can't use it when you want to use it. And um just as if you know someone goes to a open floor gym. Yeah um peak hours are peak hours. Yeah free hours to 5 pm kind of thing yeah exactly so and then I think it's also part of the education. So um if someone does go into a a a big gym and does bits and pieces as whatever's free they're gonna get a response but not the best response. Whereas if they come to SOF or or us and follow a particular protocol you're gonna you know go through what the right sequence is in the right period of time. So you walk out feeling a lot better than just doing bits and pieces of whatever's free.
SPEAKER_02:Just throwing it all in blending it and hoping for the best. Exactly yep yep okay so then because I mean I think one of my favorite features is just every time I come in and look at it which should be more of lately I know but um is watching you know when you're making a a booking and and there's a specific time assignment to the protocol. You guys have custom built that whole experience. Yep.
SPEAKER_01:Talk us through that yeah so when we uh first started West End we sort of had an off-the-shelf um booking system um that we you know it was a massive spreadsheet and we you know pulled things around and all that sort of stuff just to try and create these protocols just because I didn't want to just be too go do whatever you want I wanted to instill the science and the way without dressing up in lab coats and you know preaching it to them was um we can gently instill it with these protocols. And then um so from that then we uh engaged with the company to then build it ourselves just because nothing out there was doing it. We went through I think it was a couple hundred different booking systems. So we decided to build our own um that took probably close to 15 months um and that allows us to um block out certain number of seats in each piece of equipment um to give the person the best experience. So when you book it it's theirs it's there for you it's yours it's not going to be taken by someone else the sauna can easily fit you know 10 people but we only book it for six just because we don't want to stack people in like sardines and yeah that's at some times it might mean we're turning away people on the weekends but I'd rather have the better customer experience where people aren't opening the door and then closing it because it's full or checking the steam room and then oh there's too many people in there or the pools are too busy. It's like just everyone's got their space and they rotate through if everyone does the right thing then everyone has a great time and and they they get the best response in the shortest period of time.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah totally and then you know ultimately they're making time back um from an efficiency perspective which is really obviously really important. You know I guess within that sort of nuance obviously the booking system and you know the team um within that experience that consumers you know don't often notice this stuff sort of consciously what are what are the other elements that you guys have really gone we're gonna take care of that we're gonna take care of that so that people walk in and they just get this wonderful and they walk out every time they go it just hits different what what are some of the big ones you guys are working on?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah so um one of the other ones that we've uh worked on with our own sort of building team with um TH7 Home Labs was the development of uh the sauna ventilation and um or the mechanical ventilation in the sauna. When you're sitting in there with up to six people um obviously everyone's breeding out carbon dioxide get uh high levels of carbon dioxide above 800 parts per million and you start to feel a little bit dizzy, a little bit lethargic uh a little bit depleted when you get out of the sauna and and now all our um all our saunas have this installed so it turns the air over once every 10 minutes. So it's completely new it's still hot uh it maintains 80 degrees and 15% humidity um throughout the whole time and uh lower than you know 800 parts per million so you get out and you don't feel lethargic or or dizzy or anything like that. And then obviously like just the quality of the water um that we have in in all whale and pools um they're tested every 10 seconds through this automated machine um autodoses them just to make sure that the water quality is you know perfect. So all these little things behind the scene that we've learnt in terms of going if you just chuck in something that's off the shelf um it's not built for the volume that most recovery and wellness centers do. So um we decided that we were going to go and do it ourselves um through our our other company TH7 Home Lab. So um yeah that's just like these few little things that we can add in to make the experience better that people don't notice um until you come in and experience it for yourself. You can feel the difference. Or inversely go somewhere that hasn't you know dealt with these um small factors and like a big like a like a traditional sort of um hotel sauna where you hop in and you and you breathe in and and it stings your nostrils. Yeah. Whereas in ours even when the water's um put on it because it's it circulates the air so it's just like a nice warm hug. And you can feel it in your toes as same same um sort of temperature as your head just so it's not just smacking you in the face um just because the air is uh is blended and the hot air is always at the highest exact cooler down below.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah yeah really interesting I mean it it it's it all stacks up right it's all these little things and um and and it adds you know I I guess really important layers to people actually you know getting what they intend out of spending this time. Yep which is really important. Talk to me a little bit more about TH7 home labs. So explain that I guess you know in a nutshell what what does that involve?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah so that sort of came um off the back of uh building West End and um a few of the sort of issues that we had there with the with the chillers and the saunas and all those things and um we met um so me and Greg my business partner met um a few guys Danny Matt and Adam uh through reaching out to other companies to come and help us because we had a company to run, we had a business to run and when things don't work um other companies that we bought from just wouldn't you know come as quick as possible and and all these boys did and then we sort of got um got talking and developed a a another business to build them in high-end uh sort of residential homes just because heaps of people were asking us like where do you get this from where do you get this from um and it was silly not for us to to do it ourselves just because we were building multiple clinics and um and we wanted to be better and innovate a little bit not just build the exact same thing that's out there on the market. We want it to be better um and better for us as a as a business as well. So if it can be automated or it can be um you know add in these extra little features that people aren't thinking about then um it's going to make us a a better brand brand and a better customer experience as well.
SPEAKER_02:Definitely okay so anyone that's doing a decent reszi project to ditch the wine room and uh consider a sauna and an ice bath and a recovery protocol.
SPEAKER_01:So that that's exactly what you know Greg, my business partner did um his home as opposed to putting a a movie theatre in or a wine cellar he he's he's put a traditional sauna, a steam room and an ice shower. So it's um good. And it's becoming more and more with these high-end homes people are looking towards you know adding this wellness piece into their home and it it not only um you know gives them longevity benefits of they can do it four to seven times a week if they wanted to because it's so easy but it also gives a massive value to the home as well. So it's just adding extra extra value just as if a pool does adding this now I I'd definitely buy a place if it has to do sore and ice or go and stay somewhere else with a you know a saw and ice bath attached to it.
SPEAKER_02:I mean it's funny you know we've never been here as a species where I mean we we see it a lot people in their early 60s and late 50s right up to their mid 70s and 80s they're no longer old like they're considered elderly but they're active they they're traveling they are picking up grandkids they are still working and they're kind of going like I'm I don't want to be treated like an old person. So I'm staying young I'm staying healthy so I feel good I'm training um and you know it we now know things like alcohol and and all these lifestyle factors contribute to what that last 10 20 30 years of your life can look like. And so obviously you know having a having it if you have the the the capabilities of you know putting it in your home it it makes a ton of sense. And if not you just drive down to your local yeah yeah even better.
SPEAKER_01:For those that can't put it in the house then that's why we're trying to yeah serve every community as as we can with a T07 clinic.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah it makes makes a ton of sense. Let's sort of roll into the I I guess the business side of things. First and foremost strategically in terms of what you're looking at with with opening these clinics and selecting sites um you know I think talk us through I guess first of all how you've mapped out these first few and and and and what you've opened in the last 18 months four clinics in the last 18 months.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. Yeah so now we have uh West End which is our first one uh then we opened Noosa then uh Yurongpilli Miracovat uh Newstead and and Cleveland um at at the start when we first sort of opened West End and Nusa the other sites were sort of very opportunistic it just you know came up um we've got this site we've got this location and you know we think you guys would be a great fit there um and we sort of jumped at everything and said yep sounds good um we'll we'll make it work and and and and we have and we've you know squeezed in um what we wanted into certain sort of spaces as well which has been great um but now it's more of a strategic approach in terms of where um where do we go next uh the Gold Coast being a big sort of priority for us uh I know you you boys are down there as well and um obviously Sydney and Melbourne like there's untapped mark markets down there or there's like there's competitors but um in terms of yeah what they're doing at the scale of what we sort of want to do um like it's a big sort of priority for us to to get down there as quick as possible.
SPEAKER_02:It makes a ton of sense. You know I suppose what is being on the front line of sort of consumer interaction talk to you guys about real world wellness habits versus I guess the trends that you know we'd expect to see people listen to a a decent podcast with a tear or Hubbeman or these longevity guys and we have this sort of idea of what this looks like in the real world you know I sit here and listen to exercise experts on podcasts that have massive followings say these things and people come in and ask me about it and I'm like don't worry just don't worry about that one thing it may or may not apply to you. Yep.
SPEAKER_01:But you're on the coal face you're dealing with the individual as opposed to yes the evidence says and people's ideas say so you know in in the recovery space what are you guys seeing that you know the real world consumers using and needs to worry about yeah so in um obviously off the back of the last podcast where I said you know the four to seven times a week does this, this and this um that was the the belief that we had in terms of we need to offer it to everyone to be able to do that for these benefits. And the reality is is uh as I said before we're like we're always competing with time and um and if you know people can't make it in they think they can't get the benefit where they can uh and that's what we're trying to teach people is just you can come in and and get the minimum effective dose um in the shortest period of time and and if you do the the sequence right um you're gonna walk out and you feel better and it can stack onto your life as well. It's not just um you know you can perform better in the gym but perform better with your kids at home and and you know at work as well. So um it's just yeah those little things that add up.
SPEAKER_02:Let's talk about that stacking I guess element you you mentioned for me it's a big part um of these type of protocols like if I were to unpack what does that stacking mean?
SPEAKER_01:So you you go in you spend the time you do the recovery protocol you come out feeling better what does that wash up look like in terms of other lifestyle factors that are going to be affected by it big biggest one and um biggest one that if people were to change one thing is their sleep. So if if you're not sleeping right pretty much nothing else really that you can train as high as you can you can recover as high as you can but if you're still sleeping real poorly then you're missing a big piece. So um the the things that we can help with um which I've sort of found definitely with tracking it through aura and even just you know some of the members and the other customers coming in has gone I s I slept first time for eight hours last night or I did this and um I did a sauna before bed and this benefited me and the science behind that um and it's um you know just just the the stack of evidence of it's not necessarily a study but it's people coming in and going I I did this and it's impacted my sleep in this way and I feel better and I I can then wake up better in the morning and go to work and perform better and uh and then everything sort of stacks on itself.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah it's really interesting because as you said you know in terms of the actual literature controlling that creating really good study to say oh if you did this protocol it's going to improve your sleep it's very hard to do scientifically like 100% as opposed to you know pharmacological interventions where you can put four pills down and you have you know control groups and trial groups and um you know the placebo controlled and the double blind placebo and you're either in this order or you're out the sauna and you know whether you are or you're not so you know um I guess in terms of stacking that evidence and understanding that it's it's a little bit harder to do. More so from a I guess a mechanistic perspective what are kind of the major factors that play into why you think people feel better when they do it and more importantly you're saying sleep what do you think contributes to that?
SPEAKER_01:So uh for the sleep piece like if you increase your core body um close to close to bed um so jump in a sauna or a hot shower or a hot bath then when you hop out you get this massive thermal dump so your cool body actually drops after it's over body temperature goes up in the sauna goes up in the sauna and then down once you get out it's sort of overcompensated and it's that massive sort of so you can have a cool shower or or whatever after just to stop yourself sweating. But it's that overcompensated response that drops your core body temp. Do you know how long that lasts no I'm not sure depends on the individual kind of yeah it sort of depends sometimes like if I don't have a um like a long enough sort of cold shower or hop out and I'm still sort of sweating a bit uh but as you hop out and you're you know in the normal sort of air or jump into aircon or whatever um you cool down pretty quickly and it's that drop in that core body that um to get a nice deep sleep your core body needs to drop one or two degrees so if you can do that before bed um just notice the difference between you know hot shower uh at at night and then for me it's cold shower or it's cold ice bath uh in the morning because it's the opposite so you drop your core body overcompensated response you're much hotter um after it uh but you also get the big hit of dopamine and serotonin so you feel alert and norepinephrine as well so you're you're awake and alert and and ready for the day. So that's why I do ice in the morning and and soreness at night. And then warm at night.
SPEAKER_02:Okay makes a ton of sense I mean it's pretty logical and and and it it is it's super funny. I think the other one for me is um as I said before just psychologically just timing out a little bit sort of slows you down and consciously you're not on your phone. Not on your phone you're not stimulated and so you just tend to down regulate just just just calm down a little bit and you sort of yeah um I always remember it and we used to do a couple on Saturdays and it's just Saturday afternoon like 4 p.m and I'm wrecked. Yeah. And I'm like why and I'm like oh that's I've probably taken myself up and down cool body temperatures settled down and I've actually unwound for a moment. We get a sort of similar response and it's quite funny I draw this relationship often you know we run a breathing class here and people come out of breathing class and they're just like floating and they're just zombies. They could go home and fall asleep at that moment. Often they don't want to drive home because it sort of feels so groggy.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But a lot of their attentions turn to their breath I think about when people jump in an ice bath what are you guys queuing?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah very much to focus on your breath um when when you're in there yeah you can't think about what you're doing later for dinner or what what your business is doing or what your friend said to you before or whatever. You're thinking about exactly that moment and and trying to focus on your breath to try and calm yourself down. So that's really grounding. Yeah pretty much yeah bringing bringing yourself into you know just thinking about what you're doing in that moment um it it's also like the you know why you feel tired as well um which some people don't understand but putting yourself under stress which is saunas and ice bars it is stress it's you know we try and control it as much as possible and try and teach people to be able to control those stressful situations but it is taxing on the body as well um so it is important to you know put it into your your training program as well so um the biggest thing that we're trying to teach people is not more is better it is trying to go this is what is best for you at this time not just um you know two saunas a day two ice bars a day two red lights a day it's just it's too much of a good thing can be a bad thing um particularly because it is taxing as well and like anyone can experience it you hop in the sauna for 20 minutes at minute 16 you're watching the clock and it's counting down very very slowly because you want to get out as as fast as possible but that's where all the benefits sort of kick in and that's what most people um don't see in those bigger sort of gyms uh where they do offer saunas and ice bars and stuff like that. Um and and like when when we were setting up West End we did go around and test them all and people would hop in and they're in for there for five six minutes or ten minutes and then hop out because it's hard and that's what we're trying to teach people like it does get hard but here's what you can get if you go through that little bit of discomfort as you said it's stress inducing but so is exercise you know and there's these mechanisms and we're in this luxurious position as a species where everything else is comfortable.
SPEAKER_02:Everything else is easy um and so you know anything of substance that ultimately I this is deep philosophical sort of tangent that I tend to go on is you've got to do something quite hard. Um But not suffering to it for the sake of it, you know. There's a line, and there's a couple of heroes out there on the internet that go, come on, you've got to do more every single time, and more is more. Yeah, you're just probably gonna end up breaking at the end of the day. Most people listen to this are normally normal people, and yeah, um, and so you know, just understanding your realm of it and then more importantly, controlling it and leaning on the professionals to be able to go there. That's the point. No further. Yeah, you don't get anywhere to do it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you're just pushing yourself more into uh wasting your time, one, but also um levels of dehydration or after drop hypothermia if you're trying to push it and do these ice bath challenges and all that sort of stuff, you're just going into more danger. That is just not beneficial uh for you at all.
SPEAKER_02:So absolutely. What are the most interesting sort of behavioral patterns you're seeing across you know these thousands of sessions that customers are doing? Um, what works, what what's worked the whole time? Let's start with that one.
SPEAKER_01:Uh the the best one for us has been the Nordic. Um, so that's our most popular protocol. Let's unpack that. What what is that matter? Uh so that's 20 minutes in the sauna. Um, then it's alternating between the hot and the hog the hot and the cold pool um for 10 minutes. Um we've got a particular sort of timing sequence in there as well, but depending on the individual, uh if they're brand new, we're not gonna say, I'll jump in there for three minutes. It's gonna be a minute to start alternating with the hot just to make it a little bit easier for them. Um then it's switching off and and um in the steam room for another 20 minutes and then back to the cold pool if you're if you're you know kicking off your day or if you you know want a little reset for the the middle of the day, uh two to five minutes in the cold pool and then um have a shower, get change, go back to your life. Then you go. Yeah, so that normally takes around 50-55 minutes. Yeah, um, yeah, it's it's been our most popular from the very start. Um, just because it gives a a good taste of everything that we have. Um it is yeah, starting to get copied from other people, the exact same name and all that sort of stuff, which is um funny to see. But um it's a compliment, mate. Yeah, yeah, that's whatever. We've had it happen to you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so yeah, really interesting. Um what's fallen flat, if you will.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so we um thought and what I was sort of saying before in terms of like trying to offer a protocol for everything, trying to stack bits and pieces um together. We had one that was red light and compression boots, and um, yeah, it just didn't didn't really do too well. Um so they do a red light, red light and compression at the same time? No, no, just uh two two separate. So our red light is a full uh 360 bed, so it covers the whole body and then compression as well. And I think at the start we're just like pulling out pieces to um to give people you know something easy to follow if they wanted to do that. Um whereas now it's just more this is what we believe that is best for the customer. Um, and it's not just you know combining things for the sake of combining them, um, not going more variety, we're going less, and we're simplifying everything to go, this is this is what we want to do. Flow tanks? Yeah, we scrapped the flow tanks as well. So uh very quickly we had them at um West End for probably eight months, nine months. Um, and just they they didn't sell too badly. It was just the admin and and the process and the operations wise of it, of why we got sort of rid of them. Um you can imagine 500 kilos of magnesium salt uh trying to clean that off the floors and in the showers and all that sort of stuff. It was just like a lot, a lot of um admin heavy sort of things, and we were happy to leave them to other sort of competitors. Um and it w it didn't fit into our DNA of you know, get in, get out as being respecting your time. Exactly. Yep, interesting. Um cryo as well. Yeah, so we still got cryo at West End, and that that does um well for us, and a lot of the professionals uh use it because it is just three minutes, three minutes you're in and out. Um works differently into the ice bath, but um yeah, it was sort of that thing that if we're gonna roll them out everywhere, it's it's heavy on the power requirements. Um CapEx very heavy as well. Um, and for for what it is, um it's a good good machine, but just yeah, we just decided not to continue with that anymore.
SPEAKER_02:It's really interesting. You know, you sort of think about some of these pieces of equipment, cryo, um, HBot's probably another one where you know they're they're probably pretty expensive to install, and from a business perspective, just you know, yes, there's a revenue element that you you gotta make sure it's generating and can get through enough volume, but um I guess more importantly for the consumer, because that's gonna determine the revenue, yeah. Can they use it efficiently enough that it makes sense to fit into their routine? Yeah, yeah, exactly. How how does hyperbaric oxygen therapy go?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, uh really well.
SPEAKER_02:So that's something you put in on each clinic?
SPEAKER_01:Well, we've got them um in in each clinic. Um yeah, uh West End has three and or used to have three, um, now got two, and then we've got three at NUSA and all the others have one or two. Um, so it does it does really well, and mainly because people um you can uh take time out and just you know fall asleep if you want to, but you can also take your laptop in or your phone and you can still be still be productive with the um, especially with the extra oxygen that's gone to your to your brain. It's sort of like hyper focuses you. Uh that's what I do every time that I need to be um you know not not so distracted and no one bugging me or anything like that. You can lock yourself in there and just get get a good hour um of of work done. So um I think that's why it's it's pretty popular as well. Um it's been massive for people with uh injuries and um getting back on the field faster, whether they're professional or they've just had surgery, and how we can uh help them you know recover faster um to get back to what they do love or what they love doing most.
SPEAKER_02:So totally. What's emerging? What's sort of really um come into the scene the last couple of months or years for you guys?
SPEAKER_01:Um like we've well we've always had sort of red light um in in our clinics, but I think it's just the combination of the red light and H bot that is again anecdotally, and we're sort of exploring the the possibilities of of getting a proper research sort of done. Um, but like you know, we had Lockie Neal come in um and he did two hyperbarics a day and a red light uh in the lead up to the the Brizzy Lions grand final. Um it was calf strength, wasn't it? Yeah, calf, yeah, given you know one percent chance and he ended up playing half a game and had a great game and and all that sort of stuff. Not saying that you know we we did that. He obviously had his team of physios and and doctors and um all that sort of stuff, but it was just those little percents of you know, what did that do? Um doing 90 minutes in the morning, 90 minutes at night, and same thing with Tate McDermott, you know, did his hammy real bad and just wanted to walk at his wedding and um you know, yeah, he did the exact same protocol, and so it's just those little stories that can add up, and um that's what we're sort of exploring, like combine this and this, or do this before, do this after. Um, and how quickly can we get back to on the field?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's really funny. I mean, we we you know try and encourage as many people as possible, as many people willing um to have the same attitude about their own body, you know. Okay, we we don't probably have the time pressures when uh someone, you know, maybe that works in a in a development firm or in an office that suffers from back pain and uh you know uh they're not rushed back onto the field because we've got a GF to play and and that's it. Um but more importantly, I think at the end of the day, the the speed of recovery is really important, particularly when there's an injury, um a physical one, which most people suffer at least something in their life. It's almost what motivated you to start this if you want to go back to the first episode and listen to Tom's story. Um but taking it seriously, you know, and I think for a long time everybody's been not told, but inadvertently just brushed aside, taking care of their body, particularly when it's broken down on them, um, and gone, oh well, that's what the elite athletes would do. I don't need that, I'm not elite. Yeah, but if you can have an attitude of this all contributes to my life.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And you know, time ultimately is finite and it sort of comes and goes really quickly, and you won't ever have this moment that you're living in again. You won't ever have this sort of six-month-old um at your fingertips that you come home to every night. So if you're coming home and you've got pain, um, if you're coming home and you're exhausted, you're not getting good sleep, it's going to be challenging enough as it is. So when you do get your sleep, you want it to be effective.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:All these things are really important components that you need to think about. And so doing your exercise is really important. Um eating and being really conscious about what you're putting in your body is really important. And then taking some time out just to let yourself recover is really important and it co-contributes to your motivation to do better exercise, to eat better food, to ultimately sleep better. And so it sort of snowballs in a positive direction. Yeah. Um it's something sort of, you know, we're speaking to people a lot. Um and as you said at the start, you jump in the ice bath, you really are forced to be mindful, you really are forced to be present in that moment. Um, but that's a skill in itself, and there's a neural component in terms of being exposed to those type of behaviours deliberately. Yeah. Um means when you do need to stop and in a conversation with someone, you can be really present. Yeah. Um and and and and you know, able to engage in those things.
SPEAKER_01:For sure. And it also makes like if if you can um control yourself in those stressful situations, whether it is saunas or ice bars or exercise, as you said before, in terms of doing hard things, it makes all the other things seem less stressful. Uh so when someone cuts you off in traffic or someone says something, you can just, you know, not necessarily just brush it off, but you can it doesn't affect you as much. Um, so and I think that's what you know doing these little hard things or being able to control yourself in that can can teach people as well. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:So it's kind of what consumers, I guess, don't really understand about recovery yet. Um what do you wish more people understood about it? You know, um, what's the thing that would really change their results? They're trying it, they're going to a couple of you know bathhouses and doing some sauna and whatever, but it's they shrugged it off. Um they're not making time for it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think um pretty much sort of what we're talking about before, it's not just um a luxury, it's a multiplier. And uh if you are doing it right and you are consistent with it, it can have a massive impact on everything else in your life, and whether it that is, you know, sleep, performance, gym, home life, your mood, uh, your stress levels. Um, if you are consistent, you are doing it right, um, it it can impact. And yeah, as you said, it just keeps on snowballing as well. Then you start performing better in the gym and you start looking after your diet and you start see sleeping better and you get a promotion at work and everything, and then you know, you you're happy every time that you go home to your family and just like all these things sort of compound. And uh I'm not saying it's just starts with just doing saunas and ice bars, it starts with you know doing everything right, yeah. Uh, and then just adding these little bits and pieces in there um so it can just make your life better.
SPEAKER_02:Let's start on that consistency point. What does it need to look like at a bare minimum and then in an ideal world?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So um when we first started, as I said before, you know, four to seven times a week, it's it's very it's difficult even for me as one of the owners to to keep up with it. And you know, our head office is just you know literally 50 metres away from our clinic. So uh but like less excuses than me. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02:I still I still go in, uh rotate through 750 metres to catch up with.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um but it is yeah, trying to trying to make it part of your lifestyle. So um, you know, whether it is yeah, every Tuesday I do this uh and every Saturday I make it social. I think the biggest aspect that um if someone was just to do it once a week, it would be uh make it social. Uh so either either go with friends or go for a run, do a gym session, um, go do a sauna and ice bath or go do a Nordic uh and then grab Brecki after. And there's been plenty of groups that come in. Um, you know, there's a sauna mum's group every Wednesday night um at each of the clinics. Uh so they just like catch up and talk about, and they can be completely random people, but they talk about their problems or you know what they're experiencing and um just life. Yeah, we've had plenty of blokes come in as well and just you know share stories and um and get a bit uncomfortable in the sauna and ice bath together, but that sort of just breaks down on the walls and you start talking about things that you wouldn't necessarily talk about uh with your mates. And I think that piece um for me, in terms of make it a a routine um every week, if you're just gonna come once. That's the one social. Yep.
SPEAKER_02:It's funny. Um last episode we had uh Tama Barry, he's a performance psychologist, and he said a really interesting line. He said we place a way too much emphasis on our um romantic partner and way too little emphasis on our friends. Yep. Um, and you know, I think about exercise as a mechanism for that, it's what I encourage a lot of people to do. Yep. Um, and then second to that, you know, it's the literally the backbone of how we built our business is group fitness. Yeah, um, is people get to come and hang out with their mates and do something outside of an unhealthy behavior, which tends to be eating eating too much and drinking too much. Um, and and and here we are. This is kind of the world we're looking at right now, and Australia, I believe, is at the forefront. Um, the rest of the world sort of almost looking at us in awe or envy or laughing at us, who cares? Um, but they're going, you know, people are running at these run clubs, and everyone, everyone down the Gold Coast. I speak to Joey, and he's like, mate, it's dead at 9, 9.30, but at 5:30 at the front of his house in Chewing, it's packed. There's just people out and moving their body everywhere. So there's something to that, and and I think I guess above the exercise thing, sitting in a sauna, you actually do get to have that chat and check in with your mates. And you know, people are walking around. I mean, just come out of November, everyone's like, you know, are you okay? And check in with your mates. Well, it's a little it's easy to say, it's harder to do if you're not creating the environments or the situations with your friends. And yeah, I guess this epitomizes it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, exactly. And it's yeah, definitely um a lot uh it's uh yeah, definitely a lot healthier than going out and grabbing a beer with someone. Uh, because if you are sort of looking after your mental health and you want to sleep right and all that sort of stuff, drinking alcohol is not the best thing to do before bed.
SPEAKER_02:So I mean we we've built entire industry on that, you know, that's what hospitality really is.
SPEAKER_01:And it's not to say that that will fall over, but it is to say that this is coming and it's this is the alternative that people are starting to you know take up and and they want to do that more as opposed to going out. Well, that's that's me and that's you know my circle.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um mate. Well, I guess if you could give the general public one principle that would make their recovery twice as effective starting tomorrow, starting the survey. Um sorry to put you in a sort of hole of just one. What would that one principle be?
SPEAKER_01:Uh well, I think I think I've um yeah, I've probably hammered home on it a bit too much, but it's consistency. So it's just yeah, be be consistent, whether that's just starting with once a week or twice a week, um, just be consistent with it. Um obviously all the other sort of lifestyle factors, sleep, exercise, nutrition plays massive roles in it as well. Uh so it's tick all those boxes and then um and then make you know recovery and wellness part of that routine as well. It's not just a nice to have anymore. It's it's it should be part of a lifestyle.
SPEAKER_02:Make it a pillar. Yeah, exactly. Yep. Love it. Well, Matt, you guys are you know at the forefront of it. Um, it's really exciting. I think globally, uh you guys are probably um, you know, there's all these nice ones in the city's brands overseas and everything else. But I think in terms of actually applying a protocol and learning the reality of it and looking at the science and going, well, sure there's that, but here's realistically what works and what consumers need and what consumers want, um, and it goes a long way. So uh yeah, I'm really excited to see where TH7 goes next. Um hopefully it's the Gold Coast. Yeah, um, because I know those guys are banging on about it down there, particularly our burly guys. So um, yeah, mate, we'll uh we'll keep our eyes and ears open and um yeah, mate, just keep up with the good work, TH7, you and all the team.
SPEAKER_01:No, thank you, and thanks for having me on. Really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02:Mate, all good. Thank you for your time. Cheers. Thanks for tuning in to the Science of Fitness podcast. Be sure to check us out across all forms of social media and subscribe to this channel if you want to stay up to date to the latest episodes and any other anecdotes with which we might share across these video platforms. If you ever find yourself locally in Brisbane, be sure to drop into one of our facilities or down on the Gold Coast in Burley. You can also check us out at scienceoffitness.com.au and see all things relating to what we offer in programming and performance, whether it's online or in person.